S12.E04: American Nightmare

[shang yiet]

First of all, I have no problems with the behavior of Sam and Dean this episode. I do have problems with the writing and focus.

Dean - he can have any kind of reaction he wants regarding Mary, fine by me.  I am not pushing him to get over anything, If he wants to stay angry with Mary for the rest of the season, that's fine.

I'm not getting any 'learn a lesson' vibe. Dean said he was working things out. 

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Sam being so interested in managing and knowing Dean's thoughts and feelings

 

Sam= show. Show is interested in Dean's feelings and Sam has to play therapist. Never mind his own feelings since he's magically able to handle Mary leaving him.

This just reminds me of the time John died and the writers focused so much on Dean's pain they forget about Sam's. Dean gets to act out, smash the Impala's windows while Sam keeps his own pain to himself being so self-contained and all.  Now it looks like another round of the same.

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It's not that they are ignoring Sam's emotions, just that Dean's are more visible.

It's up to the writers then to make Sam's emotions more visible.  Because he should be reeling from Mary's decision too. Doesn't Sam have the same childhood abandonment/rejection issues?  I don't understand the argument that because Sam was a mere baby who can't remember Mary's death that his hurt and pain is supposed to be less than Dean's and not visceral. One day baby Sam is being breastfeed then the next day this comforting presence is gone.  A baby can't understand why but the sense of loss stays deep in your subconscious.

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Dean has the history with her that Sam doesn't.

They have the same history with their mother. The difference is Dean has a few childhood memories and Sam doesn't. Frankly, I think it's time for the show to address Sam's history with Mary, hint hint, the Azazel deal.

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And I would like to see more of Sam's emotional side of things because so often he is treated like the 3rd wheel. Dean gets the heart to hearts. He gets the text from Mary

Would it kill Mary to send a text to Sam too? And I hope Dean will share that text with Sam and not keep it to himself.

 

 

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Whenever Dean need space, it is always framed as wrong. He is berated

 

In the past, when Sam needed space, it was framed as abandoning his brother. So what else is new? Now Mary is the one we fans are berating for needing space. For what it's worth, I'm fine with Dean needing space. Maybe Sam needs space too since he has his own feelings, hurt,pain and loss to deal with.

[SueB]

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is there some evidence that such a scene was written? Not being snarky, actually asking. Maybe someone can ask Jensen at the con this weekend.

Nope. Zero, Nada, Zilch.  OTOH, usually it's through episode interaction (in classic Supernatural fashion) that the boys have insight.  

Dean had his insight BEFORE Mary's text.  And it might have simply been him realizing Beth was not a murderer that did it but the setup was all there based on her previous words and his more settled perspective. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't really agree with the natural order thing, because I don't think he even considered her being alive again a possibility -- until it actually happened.

Her life was also not given to her as part of a deal, it was a gift. So I think he's seeing it (and the show is portraying it) like a miracle, rather than like something that there will be (supernatural) bad/dangerous consequences for

Dean was Death for a day in Appointment in Samarra. He learned then that it doesn't matter why the Natural Order is disrupted, Death and Tessa made it clear to Dean that messing with the natural order has consequences that can be worse than the original death. Death said the Darkness spread destruction throughout the universe which turned out to be her destroying God's creations either intentionally or just by her existence.  So to me, given that it was The Darkness that took her out of Heaven, that is still disrupting the Natural Order.

I think the bolded part from Tessa: "Chaos and sadness with follow her for rest of her life" has already begun.  Mary is miserable, Dean is struggling and Sam is not doing that great either IMO. IMO on some level Dean knows this is not okay.  And if it's never addressed, I'm throwing the bullshit flag 

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TESSA You saw what happened to the nurse. Go and kill that girl, Dean. I tried to tell you what you already know. She's disrupting the natural order by being alive. You of all people know what that means. Chaos and sadness will follow her for the rest of her life. We tried it your way.

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DEATH So, if you could go back, would you simply kill the little girl? No fuss, no stomping your feet?

DEAN Knowing what I know now, yeah.

DEATH I'm surprised to hear that. Surprised and glad.

DEAN Yeah, well, don't get excited. I would have saved the nurse, okay? That's it.

DEATH I think it's a little more than that. Today, you got a hard look behind the curtain. Wrecking the natural order's not quite such fun when you have to mop up the mess, is it? This is hard for you, Dean. You throw away your life because you've come to assume that it'll bounce right back into your lap. But the human soul is not a rubber ball. It's vulnerable, impermanent, but stronger than you know. And more valuable than you can imagine. So... I think you've learned something today.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And more valuable than you can imagine.

taking this to the All Eps thread, cause it is NOT about this episode.  :)

[catrox14]

The entire segment with Magda makes no sense. It's almost Bugs level of crap editing and/or writing that does not account for time properly. 

It's strong daylight when Dean and Sam have the argument about how to deal with the witch or the ghost, maybe afternoon at best.  They decide that Sam is staying behind and Dean is going to kill Beth. Dean slams the trunk closed and the scene ends.

It comes back to Magda and Murder!Mom punishment scene.  It's still daylight because the brother and father are taking the horses through the yard and Murder!Mom opens the door to the basement and light is coming through the basement window.  Brother sees this and goes to the dad.

Scene transitions right into complete darkness with  owls  hooting, crickets  chirping and Sam skulking about in the barn with the EMF detector and trying to call Dean but no signal.  Does sunset to complete darkness happen in 15 minutes in  Mason City, Iowa? Or did Sam hang out for like an hour or more just hiding in the bushes or something?

Whilst Sam is skulking he's tries to call Dean, but no signal which cuts to Dean lurking at Beth's office. He realizes right away that Beth is not the killer.  That conversation lasts all of maybe five minutes and ends with Dean flummoxed as to how to answer her question about why he's there. 

Cut back to Sam discovering Magda is alive and he immediately calls Dean. Dean is on the phone with Sam when he gets captured and knocked out. Goes to commercial. Comes back to Dean shouting "Sammy! Sam!" and he speeds away like a bat out of Hell.  This is all happening simultaneously. 

How far exactly is the farm from Beth's office that it's strong daylight when he leaves?  And it can't be really late because there are people working out in Beth's building. It might be dusk when brother sees mother punishing Magda.

But again how freaking far was Dean supposedly driving? Dean calls Sam along the way so was he calling to say "I'm on the way Sam! '  or "The Impala's transmission fell out?" Or left Sam a VM saying I'll be there in 3 hours!" WTF

IMO I find it hard to believe that a scene was written to account for Dean minus the missed phone call and ONE line of "Sorry I missed all the psycho" which explains exactly NOTHING. It's a hand wave IMO.

Edited November 6, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, the writing wasn't great in this one.  I'm willing to cut the writer some slack, since it is his first time writing for SPN, but he definitely needs to get better.  That being said, there are other people who are supposed to be paying attention here.  Doesn't anyone else look at the script and ask a question?  Even Jensen and Jared should have wondered where the hell Dean was the whole time.  

For me, it's been a recurring theme this whole season so far.  Every episode seems to be missing important scenes and dialogue.  They spent way more time than they needed to with the self-flagellation in this episode.  I got it after the first crack of the whip, and I swear she hit herself 10 or 12 times.  That was definitely excessive and maybe a minute of that time could have been spent explaining where the hell Dean was.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think that maybe he wasn't being pragmatic/practical, but I don't think he was a jerk. That woman was in her own little echo chamber and she SORELY needed a reality check. I don't mind Sam just losing it and trying to give her one. I actually liked how appalled he was at the mother. Imo it was also interesting how Sam was so completely appalled by the mom, while meanwhile, Dean seemed relatively charmed by the dad. I was actually kind of wondering why Dean seemed to warm up to the father and son so much when he was questioning them, but I guess he's got a soft spot for fathers and sons working together?

I think you missed my entire point. I clearly stated I didn't have a problem with how either brother acted, but that they were both struggling in the aftermath of Mary leaving, not just Dean. Sam was supposed to be investigating, which means listening and learning what people are saying or not saying. Not telling people your bias ahead of time so they can adapt their story and/or throw you out before you learn useful information. IMO, Sam took a great dislike to the mother because he believed she had abandoned her daughter to God. And since his own mother abandoned him for a demon as a baby and then abandoned him again recently, he let his own emotions get in the way of doing the job correctly.

The reason Dean was charmed by the father, IMO, was because he was set on keeping his family together and the thing that Dean really latched onto was the father and son working on their "car" together. They represented everything Dean holds dear in this world. It's also the same reason Dean was also so set on killing the wiccan. She worked for child protective services and thought breaking families apart was sometimes the best thing to do for the family--which flies in the face of everything Dean holds dear.

[Hana Chan]

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Doesn't anyone else look at the script and ask a question?  Even Jensen and Jared should have wondered where the hell Dean was the whole time.

Answering in the All Episodes thread....

Edited November 6, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Bessie]

9 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, the writing wasn't great in this one.  I'm willing to cut the writer some slack, since it is his first time writing for SPN, but he definitely needs to get better.

I'm going to defend Perez a bit. I thought the dialogue, the case of the week and the integration of the BMOL were excellent.  Far superior to some writers who have been with the show for years. He created a one-off character (Magda) that I cared about and whose fate angered me. And I thought the character beats were well-earned and well-done. That's always a key component of a successful episode for me, so I applaud his first outing. 

Now, I think he was helped by not having to jump back and forth between the A and B plots and I would've preferred more Dean in the story. But, if he watched the series when he got the writing gig, then it doesn't surprise me that he sent one brother off screen to focus on the other, even though there was no reason given for Dean to be MIA.  This show has been doing that for years now.  I've never liked it, but that's what they do.  So, maybe he did his homework and followed what has come before.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

I'm going to defend Perez a bit. I thought the dialogue, the case of the week and the integration of the BMOL were excellent.  Far superior to some writers who have been with the show for years. He created a one-off character (Magda) that I cared about and whose fate angered me. And I thought the character beats were well-earned and well-done. That's always a key component of a successful episode for me, so I applaud his first outing. 

Now, I think he was helped by not having to jump back and forth between the A and B plots and I would've preferred more Dean in the story. But, if he watched the series when he got the writing gig, then it doesn't surprise me that he sent one brother off screen to focus on the other, even though there was no reason given for Dean to be MIA.  This show has been doing that for years now.  I've never liked it, but that's what they do.  So, maybe he did his homework and followed what has come before.

Or, it could simply be Jensen asked for some time off for some personal reason. It's not the first time that's happened. Mother's Little Helper is one that comes to mind. That was rumored to be heavily rewritten to accommodate Jensen's request for time off. Not everything that happens onscreen is always a result of a writer's bias and since this was his first episode, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt unless (or until) it becomes a pattern. 

As to the writing itself, I didn't think it was bad, but it wasn't especially strong either. I thought Perez did a nice job grounding the actual story with the characters and I think he did well with characterization; Sam and Dean seemed like Sam and Dean, for the most part, and I think he did a good job in showing each character was dealing with Mary's departure in their own messed up way. I think the actual case was pretty weak, though; overtly obvious with quite a few holes here and there, but nothing that made me do much sighing. And I found it far too talky, for my taste. But that's my hang up, I didn't think the dialogue was poorly written, though, just too much of it.

For a first timer, I'd say it wasn't bad at all. He got the important stuff right and hopefully he'll improve on the other stuff as time goes on.

But, not everything that ends up onscreen is down to the writing, so I'll take a moment to say I didn't think this was John Showalter's best directorial outing. I was really hoping for a good creepy one and intellectually, I know it's creepy, but I just didn't feel it this time. Nor did I feel like it was particularly creative in it's visual style. This one was just a little too bright for me, in the end, and could've used a bit more tension and build up.

[MysteryGuest]

Again, my issue isn't that this was a Sam-centric episode.  It was just choppy, and showing Dean racing to the scene, and then...nothing, was bizarre.  Just don't have Dean talk to Sam that last time, and then there's no expectation for Dean to actually arrive at some point.

[catrox14]

Regardless of the reasons why Mother's Little Helper was Dean-lite, be it actor needing time off or intended to be Sam-centric, there was never a complete time gap where he just disappeared without ANY explanation either in dialogue or at minimum have another character discuss him. His whereabouts were woven into the episode so either the writer, director, or editor or all three made sure no one was left asking "Where's Dean??!".  (I would be saying the same thing if this was Sam-lite episode and Sam had just gone missing from the episode with no explanation)

In this episode, someone wrote or the actors improv'd and the editor left in

DEAN: "Sorry I missed all the psycho."

That doesn't explain anything. It's too snarky and almost cavalier and does not comport with his extreme concern for Sam and him shouting "SAM???" and speeding away immediately, especially given Dean wouldhave learned that  Sam had nearly been poisoned. I suppose I can fanwank it's because Dean is all grumpy so I guess he to regress to 10 years ago?? 

How hard would it have been to do something like this:

DEAN:  "Sorry  I missed all the psycho" (matching his weird attitude in the episode)
SAM: "What the hell, man. Where were you??" (Matching Sam's attitude and general irritation and questiong of Dean and showing HIS edginess)
DEAN: "What?  I tried to call you! I left you a message!" (matching the show of him freaking out and racing off to help Sam)  
SAM:  "What? No you didn't" (call back to their bickering in the episode and reminding that his signal was spotty and showing him maybe assuming wrongly, matching them both assuming wrongly)

DEAN: "What? Yes  I did! There was car wreck blocking the road!"

Suddenly, Sam's phone beeps and Dean's message comes through,  foreshadowing Dean getting Mary's message. 

That little bit addresses Dean's absence, the missed call, shows that Dean was desperately trying to get to Sam and couldn't but he was worried.  It would be in character with the men they are TODAY

The ONLY way this for me is to assume that Mary coming back has messed with Dean and Sam's heads so much that they have been TEMPORARILY regressed because if this is Dean and Sam facing me for the rest of season, I'm not sure I can take it. These guys have changed TOO MUCH to go back to this kind of characterization. YMMV

[ZennyKenny]

Hated the story. Hated the stigmata scenes. Hated the "homeschoolers are religious psychos" trope. Hated the "mom who think that psychic powers are the Devil's work" trope. Hated the "eat poison to be together in Heaven" trope. Hated that Sam asked WHY Rowena put Lucifer at the bottom of the ocean. Hated Dean going to kill an innocent person just because she was Wiccan, with virtually no evidence against her. Hated Sam being tied up again. Hated that Magda was murdered at the end. Hated that I was reminded of the BMOL's existence. Screw this episode!

Except for the funny parts. The fence scene. The dialogue on Vince what's-his-face, as well as the dialogue on Cas & Crowley working together. The '13 year-old girl' comment. The 'Do you know God?' moment.

But yeah, over all screw this episode!

[Myrelle]

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 9:20 AM, mertensia said:

Feeling rejected =/= being rejected.

It can-on those occasions when it happens.

[pixelcat]

On 11/5/2016 at 8:10 PM, catrox14 said:

And it can't be really late because there are people working out in Beth's building.

I zoomed in on Sam's phone when Dean was calling (sitting on the table and the parents are looking at it) and the clock says 5:36PM (it could also say 6:36, but I think it's 5:36).  Edited to add picture:

 

On 11/5/2016 at 8:10 PM, catrox14 said:

How far exactly is the farm from Beth's office that it's strong daylight when he leaves?

I got the impression that they lived way out of town, plus he would've had to park the car and walk the rest of the way (or run) to the house.

I'm not excusing the poor use of time in this episode though.  Unless the farm is a good two hours away from Beth's office, there's no reason Dean should've taken that long.

On 11/5/2016 at 8:10 PM, catrox14 said:

IMO I find it hard to believe that a scene was written to account for Dean minus the missed phone call and ONE line of "Sorry I missed all the psycho" which explains exactly NOTHING. It's a hand wave IMO.

All the yes to this.

I found the "bowl of stew in front of a tied-up Sam" infinitely amusing.  Was she going to force feed him?  If no one else (other than the mom) was left alive to stop him, Sam could've easily stood up and smashed the chair by running backwards into the wall (his feet were not tied to the chair, only his hands).  In fact, I totally expected him to do that once Dad was face-down in the food.

Edited November 8, 2016 by pixelcat
Added the phone pic

[Partly]

On 11/5/2016 at 7:10 PM, catrox14 said:

Or did Sam hang out for like an hour or more just hiding in the bushes or something?

That's the way it looked to me.  In fact, there was light differences between the time when Sam is hiding in the trees watching them with the horses, to the longer shadows of when the brother is watching his mother torture Magna to the darkness of when Sam over hears the father and brother talk about Magna.  It's logical, as you can't very well skulk about a farm in daylight.  Dean does the same thing, waiting until evening to go to see Beth.  Dean may be keen on killing her, but he's going in to see her when there are witnesses around.  He's a professional.  Same way that he makes sure she's guilty, rather than just walking in and shooting her.  They could have shown them killing the time, I suppose, but the going from light to dark conveyed that to me.  

On 11/5/2016 at 7:10 PM, catrox14 said:

How far exactly is the farm from Beth's office that it's strong daylight when he leaves?

In defense of all of us who live in sparsely populated rural areas - it can take a long time to get from one place to another.  CPS is a county organization and Mason City is in Cerro Gordo County, Iowa.  Cerro Gordo County is 675 square miles with Mason City toward the top center of the county.  Even with the straight roads the Iowa has (as opposed to the winding roads of Wisconsin) it can take a good 45 minutes to an hour to get to more rural places just within the county -- and that's not counting the added time of getting from the nearest road to the farm house. Of course, that's my personal experience from living in those types of areas, I understand that people who never deal with rural, county roads don't have that background.  I'm often amused at the comments I get when "city folk" visit and we drive 30 minutes though backroads to get to our favorite eating place!

[Dobian]

I liked the episode mostly, despite the excessive copying of Carrie.  I really can't get behind assassinating a teenage girl as a plot device, though.  I know they want to establish exactly what this Mr. Ketch is up to and give future motivation for Sam and Dean to take him down, but they could have done that with an adult character.

I liked mom's texts to Dean at the end of the episode.

Well I am officially caught up to the present, my journey that began in January is done.  My first Supernatural episode in first-run in just two days.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Dobian

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Partly said:

In defense of all of us who live in sparsely populated rural areas - it can take a long time to get from one place to another.  CPS is a county organization and Mason City is in Cerro Gordo County, Iowa.  Cerro Gordo County is 675 square miles with Mason City toward the top center of the county.  Even with the straight roads the Iowa has (as opposed to the winding roads of Wisconsin) it can take a good 45 minutes to an hour to get to more rural places just within the county -- and that's not counting the added time of getting from the nearest road to the farm house. Of course, that's my personal experience from living in those types of areas, I understand that people who never deal with rural, county roads don't have that background.  I'm often amused at the comments I get when "city folk" visit and we drive 30 minutes though backroads to get to our favorite eating place!

Well this "city folk" grew up in Colorado and spent plenty of time in rural areas both in the plains, farming communities and the mountains in addition to the suburbs and the city. I've driven from Colorado to California many times, and all over California...just sayin'

Doesn't change my point that there was no explanation, rural roads or not why it took Dean Fucking Winchester who, drives like a bat out of Hell, couldn't get there in time to help Sam. ZERO on screen explanation.

[Partly]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ZERO on screen explanation.

If you know how long it takes to travel rural areas, why would you need an explanation? 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

If you know how long it takes to travel rural areas, why would you need an explanation? 

I guess I'm just a demanding silly city mouse who prefers to not have to  fanwank or even THINK about why Dean disappeared for 20 minutes, when  one adequate line of dialogue could have addressed. /shrug  YMMV . MHO. etc etc. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by catrox14

[Partly]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I'm just a demanding silly city mouse who prefers to not have to  fanwank something that one adequate line of dialogue could have addressed. /shrug

Really didn't mean to be insulting, here, I'm just confused.  How is this a fanwank?  I understood that a fanwank is explaining something that isn't possible or is a plot hole, but that isn't the case here.   It's not a fanwank, it's reality.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Partly said:

Really didn't mean to be insulting, here, I'm just confused.  How is this a fanwank?  I understood that a fanwank is explaining something that isn't possible or is a plot hole, but that isn't the case here.   It's not a fanwank, it's reality.

What's to be confused about it? Dean's absence, IMO  was NOT satisfactorily explained ON SCREEN. IMO, they did not set up the timeline well.  Doesn't make me unable to comprehend rural life.  We can agree to disagree.

Edited November 9, 2016 by catrox14

[Dobian]

Yep, I was wondering where Dean was too.  Sam called him and told him where he was, Dean heard the commotion on the phone.  He was coming.  And he never seemed to get there. I expected to see him at least burst in as Sam got the girl to not kill her mom.

[Diane]

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

Yep, I was wondering where Dean was too.  Sam called him and told him where he was, Dean heard the commotion on the phone.  He was coming.  And he never seemed to get there. I expected to see him at least burst in as Sam got the girl to not kill her mom.

I agree big plot hole. Dean jumps in Baby peels out and then it takes hours for him to get there? Writing fail.

[Partly]

Okay I get it this is definitely a YMMV type moment. It didn't bother me that Dean wasn't there right away and it was kinda nice to see Sam not needing to be rescued. I will cop to being a much less critical viewer than most. 

[Diane]

20 minutes ago, Partly said:

Okay I get it this is definitely a YMMV type moment. It didn't bother me that Dean wasn't there right away and it was kinda nice to see Sam not needing to be rescued. I will cop to being a much less critical viewer than most. 

I agree with you I am not very critical either, but this one I did notice. It was just weird.

[pixelcat]

So a few random thoughts, before we hit the new episode tomorrow night.

First, I wanted to say that this episode is not what I expected.  I was pleasantly surprised in that regard.

On Aramaic

On 11/4/2016 at 9:41 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile Sam basically got a blowjob from the new writer. Fluent Aramaic?

(emphasis mine) Sam isn't fluent, he didn't know what the words meant; he only said it sounded more like Aramaic than Hebrew to him.  From "Plush":

Quote

 

Sam: Right. Oh, this is everything Cas dug up in Gaza, every last bit of prebiblical lore.

Dean: Hmm.

Sam: Half of it I couldn't read. It's in Aramaic. And the other half... Nada. Not a single mention of the darkness, so...

 

(again, emphasis mine) This was early in the season, and I can see Sam spending months going through the books, translating what he could, and listening to translations online or from the MoL archives.  Listen to it enough, and you get a sense of a language, even if you can't understand it.  I watch enough Bollywood films to tell when one is not in Hindi (like Punjabi or Tamil), and I might know a word here and there, but doesn't mean I can tell exactly what they're saying.  Honestly, I thought it sounded more like Arabic to me.

Granted I am not a priest, and I am not Catholic, but I don't know why any priest would know Aramaic, unless they were a scholar/researching it.  Latin I can see, there are even some services around here in Latin, but not Aramaic.  Am I way off here?

On psychic powers

I think this has been pretty much answered, but I didn't view Magda as one of YED's special kids.  The accident Magda caused that injured her mom was 5 years ago, and she looks maybe 18 to me?  That would put the outburst around 13, which made it seem to me she was born with this power, dormant until she hit puberty.  Then, emotions got the best of her and as Sam put it, came out of her like a punch causing Mom to yank the wheel into oncoming traffic.

On the family

On one hand, I felt sorry for all of them.  You are somewhat religious, and one day your daughter comes to you telling you she hears voices in her head.  Then she screams at you and you feel your hands pulled in a direction they should not be going.  If you have no experience in the supernatural, what do you think?  What would you even do with her?  Not saying the family did the right thing in locking Magda away and having her whip herself, but they did try to keep her away from other people so she wouldn't hurt them (which obviously didn't work).  It just seems they were short on knowledge, and therefore short on options.

On the Dean vs Sam story

Due to the topic, I think Sam was the more appropriate one to talk to Magda.  He knows firsthand what it is to feel like a freak, to have a power you can't control, and to have your family hate you (or at least be very wary towards you) because of it.  Sure, Dean could've been switched with Sam, but then you end up with a different story.  I don't think Dean would've shown the same compassion and understanding towards Magda that Sam did, and because of that I don't think he would've been able to talk her down from stabbing her mother.  So in this case, I didn't mind that Dean somewhat disappeared the second half of the episode.  It's not like we haven't seen episodes where Sam disappeared for half the time ("Baby" is the first one I think of).  I absolutely agree with writer fail when Dean leaves Beth's office.  Obviously he knows it's urgent to get to Sam, he peels out from the parking lot, yet we don't see him until the next day?

On what happened after the call

What happened after Magda dropped the knife?  Did she free Sam?  Did her mom just stand there?  She seemed pretty upset when being put in the cop car, I can't see that she would just let Magda release Sam without trying something else.

Other random nonsense

The family lives on this farm, with horses, and all I kept wondering was how do they generate money to be able to afford it?

Told Sam to stay in the horse stall, hidden, while he tries to call Dean.  He didn't listen, but he didn't have service in the barn anyway.  I did laugh at his MoL phone wallpaper.

And CPS putting a child on a bus to California by herself?  I'd think at the very least they'd make Auntie drive out to pick her up.  But if she really is 18, that could be why.  Poor Magda, ending up dead in a bus stop bathroom without getting the chance to try for a normal life.  I have to wonder if Sam & Dean will ever find out she's dead (as a news story they come across, rather than the Big Bad gloating about it)

I also completely forgot that her brother was killed by Mom; when Magda got off the bus I was thinking "where the hell is her brother?"  When I did the re-watch, then it became clear.  I also thought with many of you that Magda's bizarre path away from the bus meant she was either running away, or Up To No Good.  Again on the re-watch, the bus driver says that there are soda machines to the left, bathrooms to the right.  It's clear she's going to the right when the rest of the bus I guess was SUPER thirsty.

Overall, I have to say I liked the episode, but will not pull this out for re-watch as a stand-alone episode.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know, considering how time is mostly irrelevant on this show, Dean not showing up timely really didn't jump out at me. Was it weird and a fail? Sure, but I didn't need an explanation either.

I had way more issues with the logic of Dean and Mary returning to the bunker while Cass stayed behind back in Momma Mia. Not only did it seem entirely impractical, but it just made no sense to me Dean would leave Missouri knowing Sam was in the area. I know they have this massive standing set and all, but... . 

Edited November 9, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Partly]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

I agree with you I am not very critical either, but this one I did notice. It was just weird.

I think the weirdness factor is that we (well, me at least) like to have Dean the action hero and him not being there when the mother was stopped left him out of that role. It's an unusual choice for the show that likes to show case Action!Dean  

While I usually greatly miss Action!Dean when he's not there, what I really liked in this episode was how they showcased the less popular Competent!Dean. 

I mean here you meet Beth. Obvious suspect. Not only did she get the job, but she's a Wicca, which gives her means. An evil witch is a good suspect and with Dean not being overly fond of witches he's more than willing to end her.  However, what really puts the nail in her coffin is her statement of "sometimes what's best for a family is to split them up."  That would make Dean willing to end her even without the witch part. 

What I love is that Dean goes there to kill her (hell, he's got the gun out and everything) but he talks and listens and adjusts his thinking. I love that about Dean. I know that a lot of people (most annoyingly Sam) feel that Dean is trigger happy, but that's not true and I'm glad to see that shown on screen. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Partly
Spelling is essential

[Wynne88]

Quote

I know that a lot of people (most annoyingly Sam) feel that Dean is trigger happy, but that's not true and I'm glad to see that shown on screen. 

Yet in this instance, Sam didn't seem to have any qualms at all about letting Dean go after Beth alone.  He seemed to trust Dean not to do anything stupid.

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't need for there to be Action Dean.  I have no issue with Dean taking a backseat and letting Sam have this episode.  They either needed to eliminate the scene of Dean talking to Sam and then speeding off to the rescue, or toss in one line of dialogue to explain whey he never got there.  And while they were at it, they could explain how the murderous scene with Sam, Magda and the mother just magically resolved itself.  The mother was still screaming about her possessed daughter when they were hauling her off to the police car, so I don't think she just calmed down and sat there while Magda untied Sam.  Just bad writing, or editing, or both.

And as others have pointed out, do you really just stick Magda on a bus to send her halfway across the country by herself?  When we first meet her, she is already suffering from multiple bloody lash marks, and then she proceeds to give herself a dozen or so more, so she's bleeding pretty heavily at this point, and has to be in substantial pain.  She's also a little psychologically battered from being tied up in the basement for God knows how long.  There's no way that girl isn't going to a hospital to have her wounds looked at, and to have some sort of psych workup done.  If they had to have her killed, then send Mr. Ketch to the hospital.  It's certainly been done before.

I just really wanted the writing to be better this year, and so far, I'm having to fill in an awful lot of blanks myself.  I hope things improve.

[pixelcat]

3 hours ago, Diane said:

I agree with you I am not very critical either, but this one I did notice. It was just weird.

You wrote this while I was typing up my big post, so didn't see it until later. This is the best way to describe how I feel. Normally the time jumps don't bother me, but this one was weird.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Yet in this instance, Sam didn't seem to have any qualms at all about letting Dean go after Beth alone.  He seemed to trust Dean not to do anything stupid.

I don't think it was a matter of trust, per se.  Sam had plenty of qualms. They had a heated argument over who's theory was correct and what they should do. Sam was just as eager to prove his case that Magda was a ghost as Dean was that Beth was a witch.

Quote

DEAN: All right. We're clear on what we gotta do, right?

SAM: Yeah, definitely.
DEAN:What's that for?
SAM: To track down Magda's ghost. What's...
DEAN: Beth. The witch.
SAM: Dean, this isn't a witch.
DEAN: Well, it's not a ghost.
SAM: Those people let their daughter die. She's angry and wants revenge.
DEAN: Yeah, but they're alive. Besides, how -- how she getting around town, huh? Ghosts are tied to one place. Or -- or to a person or to a thing.
SAM: Oh, you're reaching.
DEAN: And you're not?
SAM: Beth didn't even know the delivery boy.
DEAN: Maybe, maybe not, but I'm gonna find out.
SAM:  Look, you didn't spend alone time with that woman. She is disturbed.
DEAN: The family's weird, but they're good people. Look, Beth wanted the better job, she killed to get it. End of story.
SAM: You're wrong.
DEAN: All right, look, you got your ideas, I got mine. You wanna stay here and, uh, scan the farm for EMF, you go right ahead. I'm on Beth.
SAM: Fine. We'll see who's right.
DEAN: Well, you'll see I'm right.
Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=29458

Edited November 10, 2016 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

Quote

I don't think it was a matter of trust, per se.  Sam had plenty of qualms. They had a heated argument over who's theory was correct and what they should do. Sam was just as eager to prove his case that Magda was a ghost as Dean was that Beth was a witch.

I agree they argued over who was right.  My point was simply that Sam didn't say anything in this conversation that would indicate he was worried about Dean shooting her without investigating whether she was actually guilty.  He didn't even suggest that Dean should question her first, which to me meant that he just took it for granted that he would.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I agree they argued over who was right.  My point was simply that Sam didn't say anything in this conversation that would indicate he was worried about Dean shooting her without investigating whether she was actually guilty.  He didn't even suggest that Dean should question her first, which to me meant that he just took it for granted that he would

That conversation took place earlier in the episode.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=12.04_American_Nightmare_(transcript)

Quote

EXTERIOR: DAYLIGHT. THE BROTHERS EXIT THE BUILDING WITH SAM HOLDING THE CASE FILES.

DEAN: Well, that was easy.

SAM: What?

DEAN: What? The Wicca'd Witch of the West in there. Little Miss Positive Energy wanted a bigger office, did a little hoodoo... Boom. I say we put a witch-killing cap in her ass, call it a day.

SAM: Yeah, but we checked the church and Olivia's house. We didn't exactly find any hex bags.

DEAN: So she covered her tracks.

SAM: But we're not looking at a witch. I'm not saying it's not Beth.

DEAN OPENS THE TRUNK OF THE IMPALA.

SAM: I'm -- I'm just saying we need proof. And look, if it's her, I'll shoot her myself.

DEAN PICKS UP A BOX OF WITCH KILLING BULLETS.

DEAN: Oh, no, no, no, no. No, I'm definitely shooting her.

DEAN CLOSES THE TRUNK. SAM SHAKES HIS HEAD AND SIGHS. THE BROTHERS GET INTO THE IMPALA

Sam was worried from the beginning when Dean zeroed in on Beth, which is why the conversation later in the episode became so heated.  I don't think Dean really said anything that assuaged Sam's issues and Sam just didn't argue with Dean anymore and focused on proving his viewpoint right. I don't think he really ever came around to 'trusting' Dean on this as much he acquiesced.

[Wynne88]

I don't see it that way, but it's all good.

[Boopsahoy]

13 hours ago, pixelcat said:

You wrote this while I was typing up my big post, so didn't see it until later. This is the best way to describe how I feel. Normally the time jumps don't bother me, but this one was weird.

I felt the editing all episode was a little off and just assumed that was the problem. (I also was wondering wth is taking you so long Dean?)

[SueB]

Doing a re-watch. I know MANY have issues with Dean being absent for a long period until the end of this episode.  But as I watched again, I'm DEFINITELY convinced that we are missing a Beth/Dean interaction (either a deleted scene or an extension of their interaction).  My original issue was the sudden interest by Beth. Original Post  But now I'm convinced it was more long-term plot related (the family needing space).

Let me explain:

I think what's missing is Beth explaining that sometimes CPS does in fact help.  That "space" is a good thing. And that this causes Dean to rethink his discussion with Sam. 

Timeline re-do from new perspective:
- Sam calls Dean on being grumpy due to Mary being gone. Sam tries to convince Dean that Mary probably just needed "space".  Sam's argues that sometimes families do better with a little time apart. Dean's response is "Yeah who, the Manson's?" That's on the walk-up to creepy family farm house.
- Sam gets the full-frontal creep from the Mom, Dean sees a more normal Dad.  Sam says he's convinced it's Magda's ghost and stays. Dean goes after Beth.
- At this point Dean hasn't shown ANY sign of accepting Sam's argument about families having time apart.
- Dean confronts Beth and she makes it clear that she doesn't want the job. She counters with, "So what brings you here?" and Dean answers with an "Ummmm".  Then we cut back to the action at creepy family farm.  (note: this is the same spot I discussed previously about a missing scene)
- The NEXT scene of Dean is him hearing Sam's in trouble.

 IMO, I think what we missed is Beth saying something that helps Dean comes to grips with the issue of "Mary needs space".  When they first met Beth, she said "... this is Child Protective Services." and "You don't make a lot of friends when sometimes what's best for a family is to split them up." Dean's comments about the Manson family is AFTER that. So she didn't win him over the first time they talked.

BUT... and here's what I think it the real evidence... this is the conversation w/ Magda at the end:
 

Quote

MAGDA: Beth called my aunt in California. I'm gonna be staying with her.

BETH: She has a ranch. Lots of wide open country.

DEAN: Well, that's great. You know, sometimes in order to figure things out, a person needs space.

emphasis DEAN's ... seriously, watch the scene.  He's totally talking about Mary here. 

So somewhere between going to kill Beth and the ambulance scene, Dean changed his mind about Mary needing space being an okay thing.

First couple of passes, I think I conflated Mary's response w/ Dean's attitude.  But it's clear to me now that somewhere in his interaction w/ Beth, SHE convinced him that sometimes space is the right thing for families. 

So, what insights does this give me from a episode development?
1) It shows that Perez probably wrote a too-long script and a key scene regarding Dean's POV on Mary had to be cut for time.
2) The cut makes sense from the Director's POV because the main story is at the creepy family farm. Dean's POV is a long-term concept and how he reached a happier place with Mary is covered by her "Mom" text.
3) The cut does NOT make sense from a Dean-character centric POV because we don't see him hear why 'space' is a good thing when he was so vehemently opposed before.  In fact, it's been a series-long issue for Dean.
4) Perez's script had at least 2 scenes that probably BOTH went too long... the stuff w/ Beth, the stuff w/ creepy family.  And by having the long scene with Beth before the action heats up at the farm, it delays getting to the A-plot climax.
5) This was Perez's first script. If he's mad about losing the Beth scene, he'll hopefully learn how to turn in a tighter script.
6) The Director and JENSEN didn't do the script length any favors.  The Director spent more time on the creepy family farm atmosphere and initial stigmata scenes. Lot's of juicy moody stuff there -- good horror stuff.  And Jensen added in the gate gag which extended the time of that walk-up scene.  
7) The Editor didn't do any favors to the script length because he KEPT all the mood-setting and the walk-up scene.  Many found Jensen's gag hilarious so I can see why he kept it.  But, IF the choice is between atmosphere/Jensen gag, and wordy talk with Beth -- I can see the Editor choosing a simple cut rather than a ton of little cuts to preserve ONE scene extension.  

What value is this insight?
1) IMO Dean's absence lacks malice of forethought. It's a production issue w/ a newbie's script.
2) We missed out on a key Dean-character "a-ha" moment where he hears from someone who hates their job why sometimes doing something awful (providing space) is the right thing.  Whatever she said in that scene is what turned Dean around. I hope it's on the DVD. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I rewatched this today. I really liked Magda and wish they hadn't killed her off.  I could really see how she was struggling at the rest stop: she was walking kind of stiff and unsure.  I mean, how many years had it been since she'd been out of that basement?

I noticed Ketch's motorcycle at the rest stop more this time than I did the first time.

I'm not bothered as much that the parish priest didn't know either Hebrew or Aramaic (though, I would have expected him to be at least a little familiar with Hebrew enough to know whether it was or wasn't what the first victim was speaking) but moreso when Sam said it sounded like Aramaic, and then he questioned: what kind of priests are you?  Wth?  He's questioning them because they know the difference between two ancient languages that were used in original scripture?  Because that's a bad thing?  All I could think was: the educated kind?  Lol. 

Watching straight through with no commercials makes a Big difference; especially, imo, with the "missing Dean" portion.  Fwiw - when the phone call from Sam gets dropped and Dean is shown peeling out in the impala the time left in the episode is approx 13:15.  The next scene when Dean shows up with the police leading the mom away, there's approximately 5:15 minutes left in the episode.  So, technically, Dean was missing for about 7 minutes in the episode, not the "half" of frequent complaints.  I know: "hyperbole", right?  And yeah - I get hyperbole.  Rather, I understand Good hyperbole.  Bad hyperbole is just...Bad.  And does no one any favors.  

The timeline is still a little wonky.  The family was sitting down to dinner when Mom poisoned Dad, and it was dark out.  End scene it's light out.  Looks like next morning due to the sunlight and misty fog still in the air.  Sam is free, standing next to Dean, Magda is being treated by EMTs, and police are leading the mom to the cruiser.  So obviously a lot happened, but it took all night?  Granted, the EMS and police probably weren't called until after Dean arrived - and since the family lived out in the boonies, there's no telling how long it took them to get there.  But still not all night.  Maybe it took Dean and Sam that long to talk her down and convince Magda to let them call the authorities, etc.  :)  I realize it was probably just for filming convenience, instead of trying to film too much in the dark.  I guess that's a problem with shooting on location - much more dependent on mother nature.  

I agree with @SueB above that there seems to be more to Dean and Beth's conversation at the office than we see.  

[lmdreamer]

In the case of Magda, couldn't sam and dean have offered to take her back to the bunker? The Men of Letters have taken in psychics before like the guy from season 10 so there had to have been resources for psychics.  She could have stayed with them while she got used to her powers. Magda was a strong psychic who has been abused and using her powers uncontrollably.  They should have stayed close for at least a couple of weeks or at least offered to drive her to the place she was going to stay at. Two "licensed" FBI agents would have been a lot safer than a travel bus anyway.  Even if Ketch hadn't killed her there is not reason to not believe she wouldn't snap at least once after what she has been through.  They should have watched her at least instead of blindly assuming she would be all right.

Edited June 2, 2017 by lmdreamer

[gonzosgirrl]

It will just never not be weird/wrong to me that Dean hears Sam obviously in trouble on the other end of the phone, has a working car at his disposal, and not only shows up hours later, after all the action, there is no explanation for it. Whether it was the writing, the directing, or the editing, it makes no sense. There have been endless excuses for the sidelining of Dean in S12, mostly 'blaming' Jensen for wanting/needing time off for the birth of his twins - but even if that were the sole reason, (and I don't believe for a moment it is) there are far more effective ways to write around it than to have him simply disappear without explanation. This episode was (for me) the obvious and egregiously out of character example of it. Sam in trouble = Dean moving heaven and earth to get to him is Supernatural 101.

ETA: It's not that he was missing for 'only' 7 minutes, it's how many hours those 7 minutes represent and what took place in that time.

Edited June 2, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It will just never not be weird/wrong to me that Dean hears Sam obviously in trouble on the other end of the phone, has a working car at his disposal, and not only shows up hours later, after all the action, there is no explanation for it.

To be fair, imo it's not completely clear exactly when Dean shows up at the farm.  The next scene with Dean after he is shown peeling out in the impala is after all the action.  Dean and Sam are standing next to each other as they watch police lead mom away in handcuffs.  But that doesn't mean that Dean didn't show up hours before that.  We just don't get to see it.  

We also don't get to see how Sam got untied from the chair.  We don't get to see who called the police and EMS.  We don't get to see what happened to Mom immediately after Magda decided not to stab her.  What was to stop the mom from picking up the knife and killing her daughter by surprise at that point?  Sam was still tied to the chair.  There is a lot that happened which we didn't get to see.  

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

To be fair, imo it's not completely clear exactly when Dean shows up at the farm.  The next scene with Dean after he is shown peeling out in the impala is after all the action.  Dean and Sam are standing next to each other as they watch police lead mom away in handcuffs.  But that doesn't mean that Dean didn't show up hours before that.  We just don't get to see it.  

We also don't get to see how Sam got untied from the chair.  We don't get to see who called the police and EMS.  We don't get to see what happened to Mom immediately after Magda decided not to stab her.  What was to stop the mom from picking up the knife and killing her daughter by surprise at that point?  Sam was still tied to the chair.  There is a lot that happened which we didn't get to see.  

True enough, and yes, pretty much everything from Sam getting knocked over the head on is a big ol' WTF?! for me. I admit my feelings about Dean disappearing are mitigated by what I feel is the general sidelining of Dean from action over the whole season, but going by what actually made it to the screen, I stand by them for this episode. It made no sense if for no other reason than the 'Sam in peril = Dean on the run' aspect. And he does specifically say 'sorry I missed all the psycho', which I guess if you squint can be open for interpretation, but to me it implies he just got there.

[catrox14]

"It was night. And then it was day", literally, it was night and then it was day when Dean showed up. 

There is no indication that Dean was visiting the Social worker at 10pm or 12am or 2am given there were people in the gym in the same building she worked in. Unless it was an all night gym and she had worked until 4 am and Dean left at 4 am and got there just after sunrise.

Did Murder Momma make them poison stew for dinner or breakfast? If it was dawn when they ate, then if Dean left the SW office at say even midnight (which seems unlikely) it took him HOURS to get there.

Literally, this episode had the worst editing of any episode EVER.  7 minutes of the co lead being off screen with literally no explanation in a 42 minute episode is inexcusable.  I would have bitched if it were Sam, missing unexplained for 7 minutes  in case anyone wants to shout 'bitter Dean girl" at me.

Wait....was this the nostalgia of Bugs at work when it was night and then it was day during the bee attack??

[bettername2come]

Priest outfits! I must've been a good girl to deserve this. Like that Dean contacted Mary first. At least Mary responds, unlike some Winchester parents. I like that it was a run-of-the-mill Wiccan who didn't even want the job. The stigmata scenes were creepy. I get a kick out of Dean saying he and God are "besties." The mom was a psycho. I really hate that the psychic plot twist is given. I like Sam's scenes with Magda. I like empathetic Sam. I'm enjoying Sam making the "that didn't make me the devil," "you're not the devil" comments just a little too much. I wish the brother dying to save his sister at least mattered. Frickin Ketch. Yeah, the way Dean doesn't show up is inexcusable. All they had to do was have him not know Sam was in danger. Sigh. Mom sends a message saying for Dean to tell Sam she loves them. Dean says nothing. Come on, Dean, at least be capable of passing on messages of love. 

[Hanahope]

Sam has too much experience to be so easily caught by relative newbies to the farm/hard life. 

It really sucks that the big bad Ketch is 'cleaning up' after them by killing those that the boys let go because they weren't a danger to others (at least much - though Magda still wasn't trained and who knows what her aunt would be like).  

I was a bit surprised that the brother didn't survive.  it didn't look like that deep of a stab, but I guess if it hit a bad organ, that could be enough.

Boy Sam looked so young in the flashbacks to the early seasons.  You really don't notice the gradual progression.

And Dean, following wicca doesn't mean one is a "practicing" witch a la Rowena and such.

If the husband was working two jobs, 80 hours a week for afford the mortgage, how does he afford a huge farm with horses?

[The Companion]

On 11/4/2016 at 6:29 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

Hah!  Here i was thinking the joke was that Dean wasn't used to climbing fences with those tight dress slacks (instead of comfy Jeans) and that's why he struggled to get over the fence

It's another funny example of how we all watch the same scene and get totally different things from it. This was my interpretation and it didn't occur to me that it was anything else. 

 

On 11/5/2016 at 6:54 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I completely disagree. Since obviously 30-year-after resurrections aren`t a thing in real life, the only situation that might be comparable is a person meeting their bio-parent only as adults after adoption or so and that parent going "um, nope, sorry, you are not doing it for me". Maybe they can``t cope but I`d still see it as a rejection of the child every single time. Being rejected doesn`t have to be your fault or be about something you did, it means someone else doesn`t want you. For whatever reaons they have. 

This storyline is very clearly triggering that analogy for me and it is making me very protective over the boys, but also probably a little more understanding for Mary. 

My son is adopted, so I have done A LOT of thinking on adoption. What we will do if my son wants to reach out to his birthfamily? How we will support him? What his birthmom's situation likely was. How I will deal with potential feelings of rejection if they surface (every kid's experience is different)?

The text in this episode made my heart hurt. Dean made my heart hurt. I wanted to make it all okay for him. I wanted him to get the relationship he wanted with Mary immediately and happily. I know that my son might want to reach out to his birthfamily some day and that it might not go the way he wants it to. My biggest fear isn't that he has a great relationship with his birthmom. She won't replace me. We can both love him and he can love us and there is literally no limit to how much someone can love. This is not a real problem (for me). My biggest fear is that he reaches out and his birthfamily doesn't want a relationship and it hurts him. There is NOTHING I can do about it except be there and pick up the pieces if it happens. And honestly, I won't blame her if she doesn't. I get it that it may be too difficult to re-establish that relationship. Adoption is hard and emotional and complicated. 

So when he sent that text, I held my breath and when he got the response I may have got teary eyed over it. The situations aren't the same (obviously) but they are close enough that it is really getting to me. 

On 11/5/2016 at 11:52 AM, rue721 said:

So the only one out of that whole family who survived was the mom?! That sucks.

 

It wasn't very satisfying, was it?

 

I thought the story was interesting. There was this building dread. The ending was a bit depressing, but it felt like a solid story to me.

[Katy M]

On 10/18/2017 at 4:03 PM, Hanahope said:

f the husband was working two jobs, 80 hours a week for afford the mortgage, how does he afford a huge farm with horses?

Foreclosure sale could have made the land and building relatively cheap.