S12.E04: American Nightmare

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Today it was Dean's turn to be a jerk

I don`t like to talk through my feelings either and if someone can`t accept that, they will certainly get a much more testy reaction than anything Dean showed here. So, I`m not seeing how he was oh-so-jerky.

But even if he was, if I compare it to after John died (and he lashed out way more then), his feelings weren`t invalidated and it actually turned him into a badass. Now apparently it turns him into a dumb loser. I far prefer the first option. 

[Myrelle]

I read that it was the director's choice to have Dean go over the fence and Sam go around it. Jensen said it at a con, I think.

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't find Dean's behavior to be all that outrageous that he needed to be called on it by Sam.  Him suspecting the wiccan to be behind the murders was certainly not abnormal.  Neither Sam nor Dean have much use for witches, so that was sort of a no-brainer, at least at the beginning.  It took him all of 2 seconds of conversation with her to rule that out, so he was hardly irrational about it.

The episode was very heavy on the "Sam is the rational, calm, sensitive one, and Dean just needs to get over himself", and that can be more than a little annoying.

I didn't say his behavior was outrageous and neither did Sam. It might not be abnormal for Dean to put the wiccan on a list of suspects, but she was his only suspect and it was only because she was a wiccan and he really wanted to shoot something. Granted, I'm all for them wiping out witches--because, witches, EWWW!!--but generally, they don't just go kill something just because it's supernatural. That's apparently what Mr. Ketch does. 

One could argue, the show was saying Dean is the sensitive one here and Sam just doesn't feel anything.

It sounds to me like you want Dean to act more like Sam because you think Sam was handling the situation better. Personally, I didn't think either Winchester was handling Mary leaving better than the other. They were both acting like hurt teenage boys, it's just that Sam tends to turn his feelings inward and focus on the job while Dean turns them outward. I certainly don't have any problems with the way Dean acted, nor do I have any problem with how Sam acted. And, I certainly don't have a problem with Dean being self aware enough to see he maybe didn't handle the situation the best way he could've. 

6 hours ago, Bessie said:

That's on Ackles, not the writers. From what I understand, it was an ad lib. I thought it was funny, but I also interpreted it as him trying to get over the fence carefully since he was wearing his role playing clothes. 

Oh, I thought it was funny. Dean is total badass, so I love it when he reminds us he's a bit of a dork at times too. ;)

Edited November 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

I get it, Goldy, and I absolutely agree with you that both characters are flawed, and I'm good with that.  But last episode we're given a scene showing just how upset both Sam and Dean were by their mother's leaving, especially Dean.  He has the history with her that Sam doesn't have, so it's not surprising that his reaction to her leaving wouldn't go a bit deeper.  And yeah, maybe bring up childhood feelings that any grown up should just "get over", but not many of us actually do.  These men are both damaged by the shitty lives they've led, and I don't think either one of them need to bury those feelings because it's uncomfortable, or maybe puts one of them in a bad mood for a few days.  

[goldy]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would not take that bet. They would find a way to say it was Dean`s own fault. Writing him in a sympathetic or complimentary way does not appear to be a thing this Season. He can`t even climb a tiny fence anymore, no wonder he can`t win a single fight. And he appears to have no hunter instincts also. No wonder he randomely wandered out of this ep and just returned after everything was done.   

Unlike the topic of the latest episode, I'm not psychic and I can't predict the future, but I think you're wrong. 

I also think Dean has been written in a sympathetic way already this season. One example would be his reaction to Mary's decision to leave in episode 1203, he broke my heart and I felt really strongly for him. I also felt that his scenes with Mary in the season premiere were amazing.  But that's JMO.
 

[Hana Chan]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Sam never has a bad day, or takes his feelings out on other people, or flat out acts like a dick sometimes?

I'm not saying that he doesn't. Nor was I saying that it's not understandable that Dean is feeling hurt and abandoned again. But it's not wrong to point out that he's not grasping why Mary left. He sees it that he (and to a lesser degree Sam) aren't what she wants for sons. He isn't in a place where he can be rational and see things from Mary's perspective and always assumes the worst (like her not answering his text quickly means that she was shutting him out and not first assuming that maybe her phone died or she's in a place with crappy service). This is not new for him and there are times when I do want to shake him and remind him that not everything is about or because of him. Mary's got her own issues that she's got to get a handle on so that she can build a relationship with her grown ass sons based on who they all are now and not what Sam and Dean think that Mary is (or that Mary thinks her sons should be).

And Sam has just as much right to feel hurt by Mary leaving, but is trying to see things from her perspective. And he's always been one to compartmentalize things in a way that Dean doesn't so I think that he's better equipped at being able to see Mary leaving for the real issues and not just on his own feelings. It doesn't make Sam better than Dean. He just handles things differently.

And frankly, I would like to see more of Sam's emotional side of things because so often he's treated as the third wheel in that part of the story. Dean gets the close bonds and most of the heart to hearts. He does get the text from Mary assuring him that she's okay and that there was a valid reason that has nothing to do with Dean why she wasn't in communication. He gets told that it's okay to call her Mom to reassure him. Yet he missed also telling Sam that Mary sent a message for him as well. Oh well...

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It sounds to me like you want Dean to act more like Sam because you think Sam was handling the situation better. Personally, I didn't think either Winchester was handling Mary leaving better than the other.

Absolutely not.  I have no issue with Dean's reaction to Mary leaving.  I think it was genuine and justified, considering what he's gone through in his life.  Sam just met Mary for the first time really, so while I'm sure he was sorry to see her go, it didn't hit him on the same gut level it hit Dean...and that's okay, too.  My issue is with Sam thinking that Dean should have reacted just like he did...that's pretty self-centered, IMO.

[Myrelle]

I think any sympathy we might feel for Dean comes more From Jensen's ability to give us more than what's written on the page for Dean. I think it's been that way pretty much from the beginning and he has become very adept at it-an expert even-he's had to. But some writing is beyond saving in that way. It sounds like this was the case with this episode for some of us.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Myrelle

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

My issue is with Sam thinking that Dean should have reacted just like he did...that's pretty self-centered, IMO.

I didn't see this.  Not even if I squint. Maybe I missed something?

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And Sam has just as much right to feel hurt by Mary leaving, but is trying to see things from her perspective. And he's always been one to compartmentalize things in a way that Dean doesn't so I think that he's better equipped at being able to see Mary leaving for the real issues and not just on his own feelings. It doesn't make Sam better than Dean. He just handles things differently.

It's easier to see things from the other's perspective when you're not as viscerally hurt by what's happened.  Dean and Sam are different people, with different relationships with Mary, and therefore different reactions to her leaving.  I don't think they should be compared, period, or judged on those differences.  

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Dean was being a dick, getting all bent out of shape because their mother left. 

And there we go. Mission accomplished, Mr. Perez.

[goldy]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t like to talk through my feelings either and if someone can`t accept that, they will certainly get a much more testy reaction than anything Dean showed here. So, I`m not seeing how he was oh-so-jerky.

But even if he was, if I compare it to after John died (and he lashed out way more then), his feelings weren`t invalidated and it actually turned him into a badass. Now apparently it turns him into a dumb loser. I far prefer the first option. 

That's okay to not want to talk about your feelings but I don't think it's very nice to be rude to people just because you have a lot on your mind. Sorry JMO.

I didn't see Dean as a dumb loser, I saw a guy that was having a hard time and was distracted by something he felt very strongly about, so strongly in fact that it affected his judgment and made him make mistakes. 

When John died, I felt Dean made mistakes too. One example for such mistake is him befriending Gordon.  That didn't made him a dumb loser in my eyes either. It made him human.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I felt Dean made mistakes too. One example for such mistake is him befriending Gordon.  That didn't made him a dumb loser in my eyes either.

I had no problem with that either because that episode didn`t make Dean look like he could never handle a fight or like he didn`t have a brain. Was there a single moment in this episode where Dean showed competence in a single thing? I don`t think so.

If the character had been a real badass in the last three episodes, they could get away with that but this is now a streak, a losing streak. And this has nothing to do with characters being Superman. I really needed one single badass scene this Season already and this episode was worse on that level than the previous ones combined.      

Quote

but I don't think it's very nice to be rude to people just because you have a lot on your mind. 

If they leave me alone about it, they have nothing to worry. If they don`t, IMO THAT is being a jerk and I don`t have to take it lying down.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

It's the writer who needed to turn Dean's reaction to Mary's leaving into a negative.  It didn't need to be.  He didn't need Sam to teach him that other people have feelings, too.  No shit!  And the dichotomy is that the writer knew it too, or he wouldn't have shown Dean reaching out to his mother by text.  So why the need to make him look like an ass at the same time.  It was just bad writing.

[Hana Chan]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's easier to see things from the other's perspective when you're not as viscerally hurt by what's happened.

And who's to say that Sam isn't viscerally hurt by Mary leaving. After all, he never really knew his mother and he's being "rejected" just as much as Dean is. And he suffered very horribly as a direct result of choices that she made. He's also entitled to have very confused and strong feelings about her, but we don't get much of that because 99% of the emotional POV regarding Mary is coming from Dean.

2 minutes ago, goldy said:

I saw a guy that was having a hard time and was distracted by something he felt very strongly about, so strongly in fact that it affected his judgment and made him make mistakes. 

Exactly. This is not new behavior for Dean because when he's hurt, it goes right down to the bone and he ends up responding emotionally rather than rationally. It's understandable when it's strictly his interpersonal relations with those that he's closest to, but this was affecting a case they were working.

[bethy]

I find myself torn on this week's episode. On the one hand I really liked the interaction between the boys with Dean teasing Sam about his taste in music, and Sam trying to get Dean to talk about what had happened with their mom. I liked that Dean actually did talk a litte about what was going on with him. I thought Dean's texting of Mary was kind of tender and was touched that he was willing to take the risk of reaching out to her.

On the other hand, I do feel like Dean's very legitimate hurt/anger over Mary's leaving was glossed over. I don't like that in one episode Dean's supposed to be over and fine with Mary's leaving because sometimes family needs time apart. I mean, what? Time apart means going to get coffee or going on a long drive or away for a weekend to clear your head. It doesn't mean packing up all your stuff and hitting the road without telling your family where you're going or when you'll be back. And Sam's comment about "We've both done that" isn't really true, is it? At least not for Dean. I honestly don't remember a time when he just cleared out. Sam? Yes. Dean? When he went after Benny? Is that what Sam was referring to? I don't know. It doesn't seem the same to me. 

And I thought Mary's "I'll always be MOM" was a little, I don't know, disengenuous? If you're really their mom, then maybe don't run off without any apparent concern for how your leaving will affect your kids. 

I wasn't a big fan of the MotW, because I'm not a fan of the tired, old "Religious People Are Abusive Freaks!" trope. But I did really like just the boys working on a case together without anyone else around.

I didn't think that Dean was being a particular jerk with either the priest or the ME. I did roll my eys at the priest saying "What kind of priests are you?!" When Sam could distinguish between Hebrew and Aramaic. I would assume that with the training priests get that such knowledge wouldn't be cause for such surprise. 

And of course Super!Sensitive!Sam was right about everything. Of course.

Jared's hair was very cute this week. I thought maybe the Previouslies were to remind us of his early season hair styles.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Absolutely not.  I have no issue with Dean's reaction to Mary leaving.  I think it was genuine and justified, considering what he's gone through in his life.  Sam just met Mary for the first time really, so while I'm sure he was sorry to see her go, it didn't hit him on the same gut level it hit Dean...and that's okay, too.  My issue is with Sam thinking that Dean should have reacted just like he did...that's pretty self-centered, IMO.

But, that's where I think Sam is showing how he's feeling, too.

This is the deal, Sam reminds me a lot of my middle sister. She doesn't deal with conflict well and tends to focus on something unimportant instead of focusing on the real issue at hand. And, she tends to focus on what's wrong with other people and not herself. You can always tell when she's really angry or hurt and not because you can actually see she's angry or hurt; she gets really quiet and and on the outside she seems really rational and calm, but she's so not rational and so not calm. She also tends to see other people's failings, but rarely will be able to see her own. And, she will never admit she was wrong or that she too handled things poorly. Never. To me, that's what was going on with Sam in this episode. He was lashing out and jumping to conclusions, just like Dean was, it's just that on the surface, he seemed calm and collected.

And, Dean reminds me a lot of my oldest sister, who carries the weight of the world on her shoulders, but every now and then that weight is just too much to carry and she breaks. And, just like with Dean, there's an explosion of emotion and outwardly irrational behavior that's followed by a sense of calm and and rational behavior. She rarely will see another person's failings as failings and almost always thinks she is the problem. And, she generally will apologize for herself, even when it's not necessary to do so.

So, I don't find fault in either, nor do I think the show is saying Sam is better than Dean, I think the show is saying they're both fucked up in their own way. But, then again, I'm Cass in this situation. ;)

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Exactly. This is not new behavior for Dean because when he's hurt, it goes right down to the bone and he ends up responding emotionally rather than rationally. It's understandable when it's strictly his interpersonal relations with those that he's closest to, but this was affecting a case they were working.

Not to worry, he realized a little quicker this time what a dick he was being(so there's the character growth and exploration that we were all looking for<insert sacrcasm here>), named himself so, and now we can get on with the more important things-like exploring Mary's feelings of hurt and pain and loss, and everyone and anyone else's except Dean's because he just needs to get over his(no exploration necessary there.). Oh, and let's not forget the old and moldy Lucifer storyline and the outstanding BMOL sl. Ugh. As I said, what a lousy start to a season...

Edited November 4, 2016 by Myrelle

[goldy]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

I had no problem with that either because that episode didn`t make Dean look like he could never handle a fight or like he didn`t have a brain. Was there a single moment in this episode where Dean showed competence in a single thing? I don`t think so.

If the character had been a real badass in the last three episodes, they could get away with that but this is now a streak, a losing streak. And this has nothing to do with characters being Superman. I really needed one single badass scene this Season already and this episode was worse on that level than the previous ones combined.      

But why is it wrong? He had a very valid reason to act the way he did. He was upset and worried about his mom and it hurt his judgment and made him act in an uncharacteristic way. It happened to the best of us. So, sure he was a jerk and he wasn't very nice to his brother for ONE episode, that doesn't mean he's brainless or a bad hunter. It means he's having a bad day.

 

I can name two scenes where I felt Dean was a "badass" this season:
1. He outsmart Lady T in episode 2. with her chinese trick.
2. He was a bad ass when he saved his mother in episode 3 when she got locked in the room in the beginning of the episode.

2 out of 4 episodes, that's not bad IMO.

Having said that, for me personally, I don't love Dean for his "badass" attitude. I love him because he hide his sensitivity behind his badass attitude. The best Dean scenes for me is not him killing vampires, its him selling his soul because he couldn't live without his brother, its him talking about what it was like for him in hell, its him saving his dead mother pictures by his nightstand, its him making Cas delete Lisa and Ben memory because he couldn't handle them getting hurt because of him.

[goldy]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

    If they leave me alone about it, they have nothing to worry. If they don`t, IMO THAT is being a jerk and I don`t have to take it lying down.

I don't feel like Sam was "not leaving Dean alone" he made one comment. One observation and then he left it alone and waited for Dean to be ready to talk about it and sure enough, by the end of the episode, when he got the text from Mary, his mind was in peace and he realized that he was kind of a jerk to his brother in the last few days and he apologized for it.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So, sure he was a jerk and he wasn't very nice to his brother for ONE episode, that doesn't mean he's brainless or a bad hunter

I don`t really give a crap if he was nice, I think he was portrayed to be dumb and a bad hunter, period. I would have had a problem with it if he had been "nice". Not that I think he was particularly a jerk but even if he was, if he was bad-ass and smart, I would still have been blatantly happy. It`s really not my concern how well him and Sam-right-about-everything get along at any given moment.  

Quote

The best Dean scenes for me is not him killing vampires, its him selling his soul because he couldn't live without his brother

Very different strokes again. Back when that Season Finale aired and the stupid deal came around was the only time I ever really hated the character. It was played as so incredibly pathethic, I thought hell was a fitting punishment.

I like the scenes best where the character seems invested in and protects more than just his own family. Sacrificing for strangers, those scenes are heroic for me. And of course I do love actual badassery. 

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, bethy said:

And of course Super!Sensitive!Sam was right about everything. Of course.

But he wasn't right either. It wasn't a ghost, and his own distracted and narrow-mindedness ended up almost getting himself poisioned. Sam was no better than Dean, IMO. In fact, I think Sam comes off as more the jerk because he can't even see he was being a jerk in the face of Mary leaving. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I get it, Goldy, and I absolutely agree with you that both characters are flawed, and I'm good with that.  But last episode we're given a scene showing just how upset both Sam and Dean were by their mother's leaving, especially Dean.  He has the history with her that Sam doesn't have, so it's not surprising that his reaction to her leaving wouldn't go a bit deeper.  And yeah, maybe bring up childhood feelings that any grown up should just "get over", but not many of us actually do.  These men are both damaged by the shitty lives they've led, and I don't think either one of them need to bury those feelings because it's uncomfortable, or maybe puts one of them in a bad mood for a few days.  

ITA. and maybe this is just my interpretation but I feel like Sam and Dean burying their feelings like they do, this is what they were taught to do by John. He raise them up to be soldiers. Feeling didn't matter, all that matter was catching the bad guys.  Maybe Mary being around will change it eventually? who knows... 

 

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t really give a crap if he was nice, I think he was portrayed to be dumb and a bad hunter, period. I would have had a problem with it if he had been "nice". Not that I think he was particularly a jerk but even if he was, if he was bad-ass and smart, I would still have been blatantly happy. It`s really not my concern how well him and Sam-right-about-everything get along at any given moment.  

Okay, you have your opinion. I have mine. For me, I think he was portrayed to be a human being who is hurting and it made him act in uncharacteristic dumb/jerky way.

And not that it matters but, I do care about him being nice to Sam, but in this particular episode, I had empathy for him and felt he had valid reasons to act the way he did, which is why I didn't feel like he was writen to be a horrible human being but rather just a flawed one.

 

Quote

Very different strokes again. Back when that Season Finale aired and the stupid deal came around was the only time I ever really hated the character. It was played as so incredibly pathethic, I thought hell was a fitting punishment.

I like the scenes best where the character seems invested in and protects more than just his own family. Sacrificing for strangers, those scenes are heroic for me. And of course I do love actual badassery. 

Like you said, different strokes and all... we all have our reasons to like or dislike a character or a show and it looks like that while we both love Dean, we both perceived him very differently. IMO, "badass" Dean doesn't really exist, the way I see it he is kind of a fake persona that Dean puts on to hide his emotions, which is why I like the "emotinal" Dean more than the "badass" Dean because when he's emotional, this is when I feel the REAL Dean comes out.

[bethy]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But he wasn't right either. It wasn't a ghost, and his own distracted and narrow-mindedness ended up almost getting himself poisioned. Sam was no better than Dean, IMO. In fact, I think Sam comes off as more the jerk because he can't even see he was being a jerk in the face of Mary leaving. 

I thought Sam thought it was the mother all along. Whose ghost did he think it was? Magda's? I didn't catch that. And I'm not sure the show thinks Sam's being a jerk. Dean said explicitly (I'm pretty sure) that Sam was right, which gives me the impression that the show is telling me Sam was behaving properly and Dean was not. 

[Wynne88]

If we're going to talk about streaks, can we please not tie Sam to a chair again anytime soon?  This is 3 out of 4 weeks.  

Quote

I thought Sam thought it was the mother all along. Whose ghost did he think it was? Magda's? I didn't catch that.

When they were talking at the Impala's trunk after the father kicked them out, Sam reached for an EMF reader and Dean reached for a gun.  When they discussed their opinions of who/what was responsible, I'm pretty sure Sam said that Magda would have every reason to be an angry spirit and they needed to burn her.  I could be remembering it wrong, though.

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, bethy said:

I thought Sam thought it was the mother all along. Whose ghost did he think it was? Magda's? I didn't catch that. And I'm not sure the show thinks Sam's being a jerk. Dean said explicitly (I'm pretty sure) that Sam was right, which gives me the impression that the show is telling me Sam was behaving properly and Dean was not. 

Yes. Magda was supposed to have died from pneumonia and the family did nothing because, God will provide and all that. That's why Sam and Dean went to the farm in the first place, they thought Magda's death would be involved. Sam didn't know the mother was involved until he spied her in the basement with Magda when he went back to check for EMF around the farm.

Sam was no more right than Dean was, it's just that Sam happened to be in the right place at the right time. In fact, if Sam hadn't been a such a jerk to the mother and preached at her, they wouldn't have gotten kicked off the farm in the first place and perhaps they would've been able to figure out Magda wasn't actually dead. 

I don't recall Dean saying Sam was right. I recall him saying he was sorry for acting like he did, but that's Dean. Just because Sam can't admit it, doesn't mean he too wasn't acting like a jerk. I think the show is a pretty much a equal opportunity jerk shower, myself.

Edited November 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot
Because I didn't mean to hit post yet and auto correct is a bitch!

[Binns]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

 

Now she's younger than Sam... so was she really an Azazel kid or just randomly psychic?  I don't know.  I could see Azazel continuing to make arrangements until it became evident it was time to gear up for the Apocalypse.  But, I can also see just random psychic being a thing.

Finally, I LOVED that little tweet back from Mary.  You'd better share that with Sam, Dean.  He needs to know Mary is okay and still MOM.

I needed that text message almost as much as Dean.

Didn't Azazel talk about his next generations? After the ones with Sam?

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Binns said:

Didn't Azazel talk about his next generations? After the ones with Sam?

Azazel did say he had another generation, but I don't think the show was saying she was one of them. I think she was just a random psychic like Missouri or Pamela, just more powerful.

Although, thinking on it more now, with Lucifer free and him saying he had plans, it could be the next generation of kids might become relevant? I'd rather they not, but it's not like they ever listen to me anyway.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And who's to say that Sam isn't viscerally hurt by Mary leaving. After all, he never really knew his mother and he's being "rejected" just as much as Dean is. And he suffered very horribly as a direct result of choices that she made. He's also entitled to have very confused and strong feelings about her, but we don't get much of that because 99% of the emotional POV regarding Mary is coming from Dean.

 

FIrst of all, Sam tends to be more rational (about family issues, anyway) than Dean.  Anything with family goes immediately to Dean's emotional hot spot. 

Second, Dean has all the childhood trauma of abandonment/neglect/rejection, which was set *in childhood* which (from what I've read on the subject) tends to be processed differently because the child couldn't make any logical sense out of it.  It tends to be saved as pure emotion, and when it comes up again as an adult, the person usually goes straight back to the childhood reaction; logic doesn't affect the emotions involved.  Sam might have had the idea of being abandoned, but he never felt it viscerally as a child; so as an adult he could apply logic to the current emotion.  

Yes, Sam's entitled to having confused and strong feelings about her, but they're not the same level of intensity (visceral, if you want to put it that way) as Dean's, because Dean's feeling them through the emotions of a 4-year-old, and Sam as a 33-year-old.  That's all.  It's not that they're ignoring Sam's emotions, just that Dean's are more visible.  

(I'm not sure what you mean by him "suffering horribly" as a direct result of her choices.  AFAIK, the only truly horrible thing he went through was the Cage, and I can't see anyone blaming Mary for that without a major, *major* stretch.)

Edited November 4, 2016 by ahrtee
quantifying blame. Maybe.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Azazel did say he had another generation, but I don't think the show was saying she was one of them. I think she was just a random psychic like Missouri or Pamela, just more powerful.

IIRC, in season 1, John said that he hadn't seen any signs of the YED in 20 years, until the signs/omens started resurfacing then, which is why/when he dumped Dean and took off on his own.  In Salvation, they were chasing after Azazel, who was (apparently) preparing another generation (remember Rosie?) 

But Magda is an in-between age (during the time John said Azazel wasn't active) so either John missed the clues or she's just random.  JMO.  

I like whoever above mentioned the "Carrie" connection!

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, in season 1, John said that he hadn't seen any signs of the YED in 20 years, until the signs/omens started resurfacing then, which is why/when he dumped Dean and took off on his own.  In Salvation, they were chasing after Azazel, who was (apparently) preparing another generation (remember Rosie?) 

But Magda is an in-between age (during the time John said Azazel wasn't active) so either John missed the clues or she's just random.  JMO.

Yes, to all that. But, Azazel also told Sam his wasn't the only generation which suggests John did miss some activity; he was tracking Yellow Eyes the old fashioned way, so probably wouldn't be too hard to miss a sign or two. I didn't get the impression Magda was supposed to be one of Yellow Eyes's kids, but it could make a certain amount of sense if they were. 

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, to all that. But, Azazel also told Sam his wasn't the only generation which suggests John did miss some activity; he was tracking Yellow Eyes the old fashioned way, so probably wouldn't be too hard to miss a sign or two. I didn't get the impression Magda was supposed to be one of Yellow Eyes's kids, but it could make a certain amount of sense if they were. 

I thought that Azazel's comment about Sam not being the only generation was talking about *before* him (after all, he had 10 years between the time Lucifer told him to start finding the perfect child and Sam's generation, so what was he doing then?)  My headcanon says that he'd been seeding children during those 10 years, but when he found Mary/John he figured Sam was it (that's why demons were watching him  and "guiding" him in the right direction) and so didn't bother testing the earlier generations (or maybe he hadn't perfected his technique yet and they *all* imploded?) but as they watched Sam grow up he thought maybe he should hedge his bets and start again, just in case.  

Not arguing that John could have missed some signs, and yeah, I also don't think Magda was a YED kid.  

ETA:  Oh, and John might have missed a sign or two, but if Azazel was making as many deals as he apparently did with Sam's generation, surely John would have noticed a pattern?  

Edited November 4, 2016 by ahrtee
Because I always remember something after I've hit the post button.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's easier to see things from the other's perspective when you're not as viscerally hurt by what's happened.  Dean and Sam are different people, with different relationships with Mary, and therefore different reactions to her leaving.  I don't think they should be compared, period, or judged on those differences.  

During the  "Walk of Blame" as the writer put it,  Sam drove home the "Sometimes you need to be away from family" perspective.   IMO, Sam is relating to Mary's need to be away from family so he supports it.   That's not a criticism of Sam. IMO it's simply something he understands because he felt that way himself.  Whereas I don't think he relates to Dean's attachment to Mary because he didn't experience that kind of attachment himself. Again, not a criticism of Sam. He might intellectually understand, he can't FEEL it the way Dean does. 

As my therapist always said, humans have four basic feelings: Glad, Mad, Sad or Scared.  Right now  Dean is running through all of those feelings about Mary's resurrection and departure,  repeatedly, and in no particular order. Those four feelings are coming out in Dean's moodiness, grumpiness, anger, frustration, irritation, none of which IMO amounts to Dean being a dick to Sam or anyone else in the episode.  IMO, it's all perfectly valid reactions to an absurd new reality in Dean's already jacked up life. His long dead Mommy was resurrected. That's really gotta fuck with his head.

Whilst Dean may not have clear visual memories of everything he did, his  4 year old brain was starting to be aware of needing his Mommy and wanting to be with her. Dean stopped talking after she died. He  couldn't talk about her death in the pilot and became enraged that Sam was so matter of fact about it. IMO, a part of Dean died when Mary did.  

I don't think Dean wanted Mary alive again in the present given his understanding of the natural order. He just missed her and that part of himself that died with her.  Dean found a way to get on with his life and live with that loss.  Unfortunately the part of him that died with her probably can't be resurrected.  That must really stir up his existential crisis stuff. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, ae2 said:

Loved the episode. But I felt the stigmata wasn't fully explained. Somehow while trying to speak telepathically with the two people she... Flogged them, pierced their hands, and put the thorn crown imprint on their head? I'm sure we could come up with some hocus pocus explanation, but we usually get some exposition during the episode to explain it.

My understanding was she was trying to reach out to them for help when she was being "punished," but didn't realize they were physically experiencing her pain. She said she thought, since she could hear their thoughts, they might be able to hear hers and help her. She just didn't understand the extent of her powers. 

[SueB]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Dean/JA strictly used to prop Sam/JP's Capt. Empathy role and Dean's abandonment issues/childhood parentification back burnered again. Dean had to learn yet another lesson and made to apologize even calling himself a dick and a jerk. *waits now for those who will say he WAS being a dick and a jerk to Sam and this is how Dean acts when he's hurting and blah, blah, blah...* 

And I haven't even watched the episode. It's cookie cutter, cut 'n' paste writing whenever the brother dynamic is explored now. It's been this way since S5 and I'm so over it and it's what I feared when we got that brother scene last week. The writing was on the wall *waits now for those who will say if you expect negative things to happen they will, never realizing that it's really only logical thinking if you just go by the writing history on this show*

Was hoping for change, but nope. Same old. Same old.

Wake me up when they decide to have other characters acknowledge those Dean issues as genuine and painful and as having damaged him irreparably in some ways. I'll keep checking in to see if an episode ever gets written to that effect.

I think they explored Dean's issue directly and effectively in context of his character. I'm not sure how you came to this as a statement of fact without watching the episode.  

[bearcatfan]

I thought Sam was worried about Dean as evidenced by his first question on the subject, "Are you OK?" I believe that Sam thought that if he could get Dean to realize that Mary left because of her own issues, and not as a rejection of them as sons, that it would help Dean. As far as Dean snapping at Sam, that is what people do when they are hurting or stressed. Dean lashed out at the one person he feels will love him no matter what. How many people after a bad day at work come home and are quicker to yell at their spouse or children? It happens all the time. You don't yell at the boss, you yell at those who will forgive you for it. This was the same thing.

[Hana Chan]

I know that I'll probably get rocks thrown at me, but for all the times when Dean was the one who gets to do all the emotional bonding with the guest star characters, it was nice to have the rare moment of Sam having a chance. Most of the times when the boys are working different angles of a case, we primarily follow Dean so to have Sam getting the major focus for the first time in a long while... I'm not complaining.

I am curious if introducing Magda and Sam talking about his powers means some kind of resurrection of that element of the story. It always bothered me that Sam's powers went completely AWOL after he got out of the cage and I hope that it's not just a throwaway for it to be mentioned at this point. Especially with the BMOL lurking in the background. Or for Mary to really get an understanding of what her choices brought about.

[JunebugWA]

Okay, that's it! The British MOL need to die! And soon! Stay in your little dreary island of smog and leave the American hunters/quasi-MOL alone!

[goldy]

20 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I know that I'll probably get rocks thrown at me, but for all the times when Dean was the one who gets to do all the emotional bonding with the guest star characters, it was nice to have the rare moment of Sam having a chance. Most of the times when the boys are working different angles of a case, we primarily follow Dean so to have Sam getting the major focus for the first time in a long while... I'm not complaining.

I am curious if introducing Magda and Sam talking about his powers means some kind of resurrection of that element of the story. It always bothered me that Sam's powers went completely AWOL after he got out of the cage and I hope that it's not just a throwaway for it to be mentioned at this point. Especially with the BMOL lurking in the background. Or for Mary to really get an understanding of what her choices brought about.

I actually agree with you. I thought Jared did a nice job too and the actress that played Magda was also really good.

I always thought that Sam's powers came from him having demon blood in him (which is why Azazel came and bleed in his mouth when he was a baby) and his powers were made stronger and stronger when he drank Ruby's blood in S4. 

But since his blood was purified in S8 I took it as him not having psychic abilities anymore.

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I am curious if introducing Magda and Sam talking about his powers means some kind of resurrection of that element of the story. It always bothered me that Sam's powers went completely AWOL after he got out of the cage and I hope that it's not just a throwaway for it to be mentioned at this point. Especially with the BMOL lurking in the background. Or for Mary to really get an understanding of what her choices brought about.

*sigh*  I really, *really* don't want the powers to be resurrected, and TBH, it's not just about not wanting Sam to be "special" or "get better story lines" or anything that will reignite the wars.  It's because I prefer the boys to be heroes as *humans,* not because they have any special abilities.  I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it.  Sorry.

But I have a sinking feeling, based on last night's ending, that they're setting something up for the BMOL to be tracking/killing *everything* they consider non-human (including the Special Children) and they already know about Sam, so...I can see the possibility of them capturing him (again) to see if he has any powers, and even (possibly!) re-starting them as part of their investigations.  (I don't know where LadyWhatsit will fit in--either as ally or enemy, and frankly, I don't care.)  

Sam has supposedly been "purified" so many times--every time Chuck saved him/brought him back, when he was "granted absolution," when his blood was purified by the trials and by his confession (he couldn't have cured Crowley if he was still tainted, could he?)--that I'd be very disappointed if they bring it back now.  But maybe the BMOL still *think* he's got powers, or are going to see if they can figure out why he doesn't any more.  Either way, I could see "demon blood powers" as playing a role in a large part of the season.  Oy.

Edited November 4, 2016 by ahrtee

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Kind of like John used to do to Dean, IMO, and from what we've seen of that relationship. But let's not go there. No exploration/acknowledgment from his loved ones necessary, in that regard. Dean should just get over/past it.

I somewhat disagree with you here. Sam used to mention and/or suggest to Dean that John treated Dean unfairly fairly often in the early years and that Dean shouldn't put up with it, but generally Sam was told that he was wrong and that John was only doing what was best for the hunt... and that if Sam were more "obedient" he would understand that - maybe not directly in these exact words, but the meaning was there, and that was generally the gist. If you are referring to this episode, I can't say for sure as unfortunately I was teaching class and my VCR decided to switch channels on me and not tape the episode - I'll be doing so tonight. So you may be right on that one.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would not take that bet. They would find a way to say it was Dean`s own fault. Writing him in a sympathetic or complimentary way does not appear to be a thing this Season. He can`t even climb a tiny fence anymore, no wonder he can`t win a single fight. And he appears to have no hunter instincts also. No wonder he randomely wandered out of this ep and just returned after everything was done.   

Dean was able to save his mother and Sam from Lady McFullofHerself because of his hunter's knowledge, so I disagree. As for Dean's wandering out of the episode, I'll have to take your word for that since I unfortunately haven't been able to see it yet. It could be worse. It could be like Season 9 where Sam would get talked into/fall for "checking the basement" or stand there and get cold-cocked into unconsciousness in order to miss the action.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But even if he was, if I compare it to after John died (and he lashed out way more then), his feelings weren`t invalidated and it actually turned him into a badass. Now apparently it turns him into a dumb loser. I far prefer the first option. 

Except that the tone in those earlier episodes sometimes used to make it seem - to me anyway - that it was okay or at least understandable for Dean to lash out and manhandle or even hit Sam - who was written as somewhat accepting of the treatment. In the pilot episode, Sam even apologized to Dean for upsetting him after Dean shoved Sam up against a fence for expressing feelings different from Dean's that set Dean off. I don't know if that's any better myself. I kind of like the smart Dean we saw in episode 2, myself. Or the one at the end of last season who could use his words to diffuse a situation rather than have to resort to simply physical means to solve a problem. Just my opinion on that I realize, however.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If the character had been a real badass in the last three episodes, they could get away with that but this is now a streak, a losing streak. And this has nothing to do with characters being Superman. I really needed one single badass scene this Season already and this episode was worse on that level than the previous ones combined.

I thought Dean saving Sam and Mary in episode 2 was pretty good. If you want to see a "losing streak," I think that season 9 for Sam would be a bigger example. I believe Sam had two kills/wins that entire season. Usually he was so incompetent that someone - either Jody, Dean, or Gadreel - had to bail him out. In the one episode Sam was able to actually kill something solo - or exorcise something anyway - the main purpose was that Sam learned a very valuable lesson that Dean was right all along about needing to get rid of Abaddon at all costs, and admitted to Dean as much at the end of the episode.

We are only 4 episodes into the season, and considering how some seasons change tone and focus midstream - see season 6 and season 8, for example - I think that there is plenty of room for things to change. In season 11, for example, some (not me) were sure that the tone in the first half of the season meant that Sam would be the one to solve the problem with Amara, and that didn't turn out to be the case at all.

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

This is the deal, Sam reminds me a lot of my middle sister. She doesn't deal with conflict well and tends to focus on something unimportant instead of focusing on the real issue at hand. And, she tends to focus on what's wrong with other people and not herself. You can always tell when she's really angry or hurt and not because you can actually see she's angry or hurt; she gets really quiet and and on the outside she seems really rational and calm, but she's so not rational and so not calm. She also tends to see other people's failings, but rarely will be able to see her own. And, she will never admit she was wrong or that she too handled things poorly. Never. To me, that's what was going on with Sam in this episode. He was lashing out and jumping to conclusions, just like Dean was, it's just that on the surface, he seemed calm and collected.

And, Dean reminds me a lot of my oldest sister, who carries the weight of the world on her shoulders, but every now and then that weight is just too much to carry and she breaks. And, just like with Dean, there's an explosion of emotion and outwardly irrational behavior that's followed by a sense of calm and and rational behavior. She rarely will see another person's failings as failings and almost always thinks she is the problem. And, she generally will apologize for herself, even when it's not necessary to do so.

So, I don't find fault in either, nor do I think the show is saying Sam is better than Dean, I think the show is saying they're both fucked up in their own way. But, then again, I'm Cass in this situation. ;)

I can see a lot of this, except that I disagree that Sam rarely sees his own failings ("Everybody Loves A Clown," "Afterschool Special," "Good God, Y'All", "Sam, Interrupted," "My Bloody Valentine," and even the badly stated "Fallen Idols" comes to mind off the top of my head - apparently a lot of season 5, actually. And I think Hallucifer is a little of that also, but just my opinion on that one). I also disagree that he never admits when he's wrong. Sam may couch it as "you were right" (see the above reference to "Mother's Little Helper" as well as "The Menatlists," ELaC, GGY'A, "Something Wicked" - in a way - and more recently the episode where Sam admitted he should have looked for Dean, oh, and that Benny "wasn't what he thought.") rather than outright admit that he was wrong, but for me, he seems to concede just as much as Dean does in that regard, since by admitting Dean was right, that by process of elimination generally means that he (Sam) was wrong.

I'm also not sure that Dean always sees himself as the problem, either. Sometimes he very stubbornly thinks the decisions he makes are the right ones and/or that Sam is the problem, like the whole thing about Sam leaving for college being him "abandoning the family" and just not being a "good son." And the Gadreel situation. Which I can't remember if he apologized for.

5 hours ago, bethy said:

And Sam's comment about "We've both done that" isn't really true, is it? At least not for Dean. I honestly don't remember a time when he just cleared out. Sam? Yes. Dean? When he went after Benny? Is that what Sam was referring to? I don't know. It doesn't seem the same to me.

Dean did clear out for real at the end of "99 Problems" and at least mentally, in my opinion, at the beginning of "The End" when Dean pretty much said goodbye to Sam and to just "pick a hemisphere" and stay away, since Dean apparently didn't seem that interested in staying in touch or letting Sam know where he was.

[FlickChick]

I don't usually express my opinions about episodes here, but I will say that I'm disappointed that this new writer already has appeared to caused divisive reactions to his first episode and to tweet about a "walk of blame" when clearly many would disagree that any blame was there, is a big mistake. When writing your first episode, it's usually better not to make statements showing your feelings about the character that you sent out of the episode on an OOC mission - that you created by your own hand. Everything has been said on both sides whether Sam or Dean was right or wrong, so I won't add my opinions.  But I will say that if this story was a foreshadowing of bringing "special kids/powers" back into play for Sam (with a possible connection to his "mind rapist") at the expense of the both brothers working together toward the goal of saving people/hunting things, then I believe it's time to end the show if the showrunner/writers can't be more creative. JMO

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I think they explored Dean's issue directly and effectively in context of his character. I'm not sure how you came to this as a statement of fact without watching the episode.  

My problem with this is that it was handled TOO quickly and by rote. 

This is an extraordinary situation that IMO needs to be explored much more thoroughly.  Dean is not a child and IMO he's not acting like a child or even a teenager about Mary.  His dead mother has been resurrected. The only person to whom he's ever said "I love you" during his Heaven trip and to her creepy apparition, he said  "I love you, but you're not real".  And now she's here and then she's gone.  Talk about emotional whiplash. It  SHOULD be messing with Dean on a profound level.

Dean is worried that Mary rejected them, that she won't be coming back  and he is also worried about her. Him asking if he should call her Mom or Mary was kind of heartbreaking.

If Sam is okay and isn't worried that Mary won't come back, that's great!  If Sam wants to share his emotions he should! That doesn't mean Dean must reciprocate in the way Sam wants on Sam's schedule.

The crazy thing is that Dean was openly grumpy, frustrated, moody.  He's not repressing nor hiding his pain here. Repressing would be destroying Baby, punching someone, drinking too much, or even trying to soothe his pain with sex.  So I honestly don't get why Sam felt he had to ask him about it again. It was pretty obviously on Dean's face that he was hurting when Mary left. 

I'm starting to think maybe Sam isn't processing this himself and he's focusing on managing Dean's emotions rather than actually dealing with his own.   I dunno.

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

My problem with this is that it was handled TOO quickly and by rote. 

This is an extraordinary situation that IMO needs to be explored much more thoroughly.  Dean is not a child and IMO he's not acting like a child or even a teenager about Mary.  His dead mother has been resurrected. The only person to whom he's ever said "I love you" during his Heaven trip and to her creepy apparition, he said  "I love you, but you're not real".  And now she's here and then she's gone.  Talk about emotional whiplash. It  SHOULD be messing with Dean on a profound level.

Dean is worried that Mary rejected them, that she won't be coming back  and he is also worried about her. Him asking if he should call her Mom or Mary was kind of heartbreaking.

If Sam is okay and isn't worried that Mary won't come back, that's great!  If Sam wants to share his emotions he should! That doesn't mean Dean must reciprocate in the way Sam wants on Sam's schedule.

The crazy thing is that Dean was openly grumpy, frustrated, moody.  He's not repressing nor hiding his pain here. Repressing would be destroying Baby, punching someone, drinking too much, or even trying to soothe his pain with sex.  So I honestly don't get why Sam felt he had to ask him about it again. It was pretty obviously on Dean's face that he was hurting when Mary left. 

I'm starting to think maybe Sam isn't processing this himself and he's focusing on managing Dean's emotions rather than actually dealing with his own.   I dunno.

Maybe (you're statement in bold).  

To me, asking if Dean is okay is a pretty normal brotherly thing to do.  And while Mary said it was only for a while, and Sam believed her, Dean did not.  At the start of the episode, Dean thinks Mary may have walked off into nowhere and he'll never see her again.  Once Sam hear's that, I think he SHOULD be worried.  It's not a normal situation. And Dean has earned those scars that he carries.  But saying she may never come back tells Sam how freaked Dean is.  To make matters worse, he texts Mary and she doesn't respond back.  If you are insecure in a relationship and don't get a hit back, it's not uncommon to think that it's intentional.  Now logically, Mary is new to technology and the phone died thing is something we've ALL experienced.  But Dean was in no position to fact that in as a possibility.  

So, IMO, Dean being grumpy is a pretty tame reaction. But I also think Sam knows that inside Dean is really churning.  And he could tell Dean was on edge.  

I honestly think this episode was a sign of growth for BOTH boys.  First, Sam's old response to Dean being freaked out is to appease and avoid.  Now he tackles it head on.  When Dean gives him a "back off" response, it didn't bother me that he asked again after he saw what appeared to be Dean acting out of character.  If WE think Dean was just itching to shoot someone (a thing he has said on multiple occasions), I see no reason why Sam wouldn't think that as well.  

Let me sum it up more succinctly:
- Sam seemed to believe Mary was coming back and was relatively okay with her getting space.
- Dean was sincerely worried she was never coming back and was not okay with her taking off.
- Sam, IMO, correctly tries to get Dean to work through it because he thinks Dean is needlessly worrying.
- Dean, OTOH, recognized that perhaps he should just have a little patience and not presume the worst (that Mary is not coming back).  And he reached that moment BEFORE he got Mary's text.  

So, IMO, Sam's "growth" was in not avoiding the topic. Dean's "growth" was in letting Sam talk him out of his worst case scenario a bit.  

Even with all the trauma Dean has had, he's also come back from elsewhere twice now (Hell, Purgatory).  He knows how disorienting it can be.  His logical self is warring with his emotional self.  Although he has EVERY RIGHT to be paranoid about Mary, if he truly believed it was just a temporary thing, I think he'd be cool with it.  Of course he's worried about her (a Winchester, on the loose, subject to any number of revenge scenarios).  But that's a different issue than feeling completely abandoned.  I think Sam assuring him that Mary would be back, and Dean accepting that maybe Sam was right, was a good thing.  

And then Mary responded to the text and Dean had a little "it'll work out" moment.  I think that was great.  

Bottom Line: Dean has a well-earned abandonment issue that Mary doesn't understand but Sam does.  When Sam realized Dean had gone to a worst case (we'll never see her again) spot, he was right IMO to try and bring him back from that.  And Dean's showed faith in Sam's judgement and let himself accept the situation a bit more.  That's good stuff IMO.  And I didn't need three episodes for them to get there.  

[Ninamags]

So when the creepy parents heard that the case worker had died  both crossed themselves. Then they proceeded to call the social worker they didn't like a "papist" 

Umm, aren't "papists" the only ones who cross themselves? 

The Greek Orthodox do as well right? But these nuts didn't seem the Greek Orthodox type. 

Hmm. ??? 

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 minute ago, Ninamags said:

So when the creepy parents heard that the case worker had died  both crossed themselves. Then they proceeded to call the social worker they didn't like a "papist" 

Umm, aren't "papists" the only ones who cross themselves? 

The Greek Orthodox do as well right? But these nuts didn't seem the Greek Orthodox type. 

Hmm. ??? 

Well, it didn't appear to be any particular religion they were following, but something the mother cobbled together in her delusion. Maybe she was originally a lapsed Catholic, but rejected a lot of the dogma after her vision/conversion without really considering some of the ingrained behaviors she grew up with. If, as is likely, she never really went to any other organized church since she was young she may simply not known that other denominations don't cross themselves. 

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

So when the creepy parents heard that the case worker had died  both crossed themselves. Then they proceeded to call the social worker they didn't like a "papist" 

Umm, aren't "papists" the only ones who cross themselves? 

The Greek Orthodox do as well right? But these nuts didn't seem the Greek Orthodox type. 

Hmm. ??? 

Yeah, I gotta say, they were definitely picking from the Christianity salad bar last night ... a little Catholic, a little evangelical, a little... I don't know what.

*trigger warning: talking about religious topics*

So, the most likely explanation is that Perez just went for what looked cool.  Generally speaking, we Catholics (yes, I'm one of them), has the Latin, black outfits, and lots of miracles.  We're an easy pic for TV.  But they also mixed a heavy dose of Evangelical (and since "papist" is suppose to be an insult to Catholic, we can safely rule that out as to what religion Crazy Mom was following).

A more complicated view might be that Crazy Mom just sort of created a little of this and that and followed a general "Christian" concept but picked up some Catholic bits in her attempt to take literal battle with what she claimed was the devil.  Personally, I think Mom was a masochist hiding behind religion to justify her own desire to punish her daughter.

As for Magda invoking the stigmata, I think I can see how that connection is made.  First, she was practicing self-flagellation (undoubtedly so that she would hit herself rather than have her mother do it).  And her prayers were all in Arameic.  Weird but perhaps Crazy Mom thought that would make them better.  I can see that her mother had been brainwashing her that she had to suffer for her "sins". In this case, the religious theory being that self-denial (or in the Hollywood extreme, self-flagellation) is trying to make the spirit greater than the flesh.  Spontaneous bleeding in the form of the stigmata is sharing in Christ's suffering on the cross, which was done to atone for our sins.  So... in the jumbled-up mix of Magda's mind, asking to be saved, I can see her projecting her Christ-like suffering onto others in an attempt to get help.  Hence, the stigmata.  But why she wouldn't have self-inflicted the stigmata on her own body is a mystery.  

In short... jumbled up mess. But since Mom had taken the fast train to Crazy town four years back, I'm thinking she could have rationalized just about anything.  Apparently it allowed her to rationalize feeding them all rat poisoning.  

SO, in the context of this only made sense in the mind of Crazy Mom (who brainwashed Magda), I'm okay with it being a mess.  I'd be more bothered (I think) if she was actually following the tenants of a particular religion because that would mean she was coherent enough to understand a religion and yet make such horrible choices. 

 

ETA: Or what Jynnan tonnix just said in much fewer words....

Edited November 5, 2016 by SueB
Because someone gave a better answer with shorter words...

[MysteryGuest]

It would have only taken a few different words of dialogue to change how I perceived this episode.  Had Sam just acknowledged that he at least understood what Dean was feeling, it wouldn't have come off the way it did.  We all get that what Mary is going through must be awful, and there's nothing wrong with her going away for a bit to try to process everything.  But what Dean is feeling is just as valid, and he shouldn't be expected to suck it up and get over it because Mary is also hurting.  Ultimately, because of who Dean is, he would have ended up putting her feelings before his anyway, but I resent the idea that he needed to be lectured about it.  Making him out to be the bad guy who needed to apologize for his behavior just really pissed me off.  

I'm just going to move on from this episode and consider it a blip on the radar.  Not every episode is a winner, and this won't be one that I return to for multiple watches.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Okay, Wow.  Just watched.  I enjoyed this episode.  

• I thought the family was sufficiently weird and creepy but not overdone.  They really threw me off with how normal they seemed when Dean and Sam first went to talk to them.  Well done.
• But first, can we talk about Dean and Sam in the clerical collars and suits?  Have Mercy.   I'm pretty sure that's a sin right there.  Or I just committed one. Whew.
• Haven't heard Catholics called "Papists" in awhile.  
• When he drove by Baby, I thought it might be a woman on the bike.  The person looked kind of small.  Too bad Magda didn't use her powers on Mr. Ketchup.  I was hoping she would.
• Now I wonder if they are bringing up the kids with powers for a reason, or if this is just a one-off and if Sam regain/reuse his powers.  All the previous kids were visited as babies by a demon, right?  So now I have to wonder if the HMSS will be after Sam in particular because he's a Monster also.  But then I also wonder how Mr. Ketchup knew that Magda was a "monster".  Really, for all he knew, the mom could have been the "monster" and Magda happened to be lucky enough to survive.  I wonder if they have the Winchesters' phones bugged or something.  
• I thought the brothers bickering about Vince Vincente was cute.  Sam obviously was a Vince fan back in the day.  Dean doesn't go for 80's glam rock.  

Edited November 5, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
verbs help.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It would have only taken a few different words of dialogue to change how I perceived this episode.  Had Sam just acknowledged that he at least understood what Dean was feeling, it wouldn't have come off the way it did.  We all get that what Mary is going through must be awful, and there's nothing wrong with her going away for a bit to try to process everything.  But what Dean is feeling is just as valid, and he shouldn't be expected to suck it up and get over it because Mary is also hurting.  Ultimately, because of who Dean is, he would have ended up putting her feelings before his anyway, but I resent the idea that he needed to be lectured about it.  Making him out to be the bad guy who needed to apologize for his behavior just really pissed me off.  

I'm just going to move on from this episode and consider it a blip on the radar.  Not every episode is a winner, and this won't be one that I return to for multiple watches.

At no time did Sam remotely imply Dean should just "suck it up".  Defending Mary from Dean's attacks (and Dean WAS attacking) is not saying Dean didn't have valid feelings.

He asked him how he was feeling.  He indicated Dean was being crabby.  Not once did he say Dean's feelings were wrong. He was trying to explain Mary's POV but that doesn't mean he was saying Dean should "suck it up."

I say all this because so many tend to summarize storylines through their own perception and then later state it as fact.  

There is no fact here - Sam did NOT tell Dean to suck it up.  
Words Sam actually said in a grand total of 3 conversations:

Quote

"You okay?" "You sure?  Ever since Mom left you've been a little cranky" (provides examples) Dean ignores him and later says they need to not focus on the Dr Phil crap.

Quote

Next day Sam tries to bring up the day before and when Dean says okay, next time I'll stop if you have to take a leak,
Sam says: "I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about you and Mom"
Dean says: "What about her? What, she took some cash, she took a cellphone she doesn't answer, and she bailed on us."
Sam says: "Think about what she's going through. After everything, she probably just needs some space. We've been there. We've both had times where we needed time apart."
Dean: "And we both came back."
Sam: "You don't think she's going to?"
Dean: "I don't know. She hates the way that we were raised. She hates that we are hunters. Maybe she starts walking and she doesn't stop. You know, she obviously has zero interest in keeping this family together."
Sam: "Well, you know, sometimes families do better after a little time apart."
Dean: "Yeah who? The Mansons?"

Those words in bold are pretty bitter and an attack on Mary. And Sam doesn't chastise him for it.  He just asks Dean to try and see Mary's perspective.

Finally, at the end, after Dean repeats Sam's line to Magda, "You know sometimes in order to figure things out a person needs space."

Quote

Sam: "Hey, um. Did you mean what you said back there?"
Dean "Yeah, you were right. This whole Mom thing. I mean, we get her back and then she leaves. I hate it, but I get it. I do. I guess.... I'm still working through some of that crap. I'll try to be less of a dick about it."
Sam: "Deal."

Bottom Line:
- It's true that Sam didn't explicitly validate Dean's hurt but he didn't berate him for it either. He defended Mary in a pretty gentle way and asked Dean to think about it.  I believe that if Mary was venting about Dean, Sam would defend Dean to Mary.  That's kind of how these conversations often go when you are trying to keep peace. And BTW, not stopping when someone has to pee IS a dick move.  I love Dean but he can be a dick.  So can Sam.