S12.E04: American Nightmare

[catrox14]

Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) investigate a case that leads them to a devout religious family that lives off the grid.

[catrox14]

[Mick Lady]

I'm too late! Damn, next week, you'll get your countdown! Love ya!

[Diane]

@Mick Lady so glad you are joining us this week, we have missed you!

[Morrigan2575]

OMFG! I hated that ending. The BMOL need to DIE!

Supernatural being Supernatural I actually figured she'd go evil at the end, especially when they had her get off the bus and walk away from the others. I was NOT prepared for those British Bastards to kill the poor kid.

Other than that, I freaking lived the episode. I wish the previously on hadn't given it away that this was a psychic kid episode but, man did I enjoy it from start to (near) finish.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Jediknight]

I called that it was Magda doing it, but I didn't think she was still alive.  I figured she was a ghost, and since wrongful death leads to a vengeful spirit, the wrongful death of one of Azazel's special children would lead to a very pissed off spirit.

No wonder Lady Bevell was not happy that Mr Ketch was called in.  The guy murdered an innocent girl in cold blood.  I'm guessing Lady Bevell will learn about what Mr Ketch did, get her son out of Britain and help out Sam and Dean,  They've definitely set it up that Ketch is the big bad, and compared to him Lady Bevell was nice.  Oh props to whoever called it about the motorcycle last week being Mr Ketch's.

It seems like the motto this year is "Trust us, people are far scarier than demons."  Which of course goes against the British Men of Letters philosophy.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Really well done episode IMO.  

Winchesters in sweaters was awesome!  

Jared really did a good job tonight, I enjoyed him.  I couldn't help but get a chuckle out of the dad hitting him with a baseball bat - all I could think was it was a good thing it wasn't Sam's dad with the bat. (I know I'm lame)

And so motorcycle guy is Mr Ketch.   Chuck knows I've just been dying for more BMOL appearances. Not.  Good call on whoever was talking about the motorcycle last week!  It didn't stick out to me much at all!

My only complaint is where the hell was Dean for half the episode?!  Did Jensen have time off that week?

[Wynne88]

Good job, Davy Perez!  I think I'm going to be glad you've joined the writing crew.

I liked it a lot.  I thought it was original and since, like Jediknight, I thought it was Magda's ghost, finding her alive was a good twist.  I also really liked the way they stuck to the main story, instead of bouncing around between Sam and Dean, Crowley and Castiel (and Rowena), and whoever Lucifer is currently inhabiting.  They did a good job casting Magda and her family as well.

I was a little surprised that Dean reached out to his mother.  I could see Sam doing it easier, but overall I thought they handled Mary's departure reasonably well.  It obviously had a impact on Dean, but they didn't wallow in it.  

My only quibble, which is minor, is that I wish when shows have environments that include horses, they wouldn't have them whinny all the time.   I know they're doing it just to remind you that it's taking place in a rural area, but it's annoying.  They just don't do that.

[Jediknight]

4 minutes ago, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

My only complaint is where the hell was Dean for half the episode?!  Did Jensen have time off that week?

He might be directing an episode this season, and he got a short episode because he had to work on the episode he's directing.

[Diane]

Really liked it. Loved that Dean was texting Mom. Surprised that Magda was alive too. So sad that damn BMOL guy killed her, get rid of them. Ugh.  I also enjoyed that we stuck with the one story and didn't bounce around. Also loved that Dean said yes we know God (because you know they do really well). Good episode.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Diane

[companionenvy]

I thought that was a great episode, although I hated the ending. There are plenty of ways to show that Mr. Ketch is bad news, but occasionally, I need Sam and Dean to save a one-off character we've actually come to care about, which happens too rarely, IMO. Sometimes, sad endings serve stories, but I think both Magda and the Winchester's narrative had been served better by her getting her happy ending. Killing her off was pure shock value for the sake of the arc plot, and it didn't feel earned, IMO. All it did was take a thoroughly enjoyable episode and leave me with a sour taste in my mouth. Maybe I should save that for the bitterness thread.

The other thing that bugged was that I don't buy that Dean would ever have considered killing the Wiccan on such thin evidence, nor that there would have been any question over whether or not Sam should have killed Magda. Even S1 Dean never killed a person he wasn't damn sure was guilty, and since Sam started manifesting powers, he also hasn't assumed that powers = evil, either. Magda didn't need a "second chance," unless one means "second chance to have a functional family life." Sam was right when he told her that the kills weren't her fault. True, Dean told Sam he did the right thing, but to me, that should have gone without saying.

Otherwise, this felt very old-school SPN for me. Some great dialogue (loved the brothers' conversation about Vince Vincente!), a genuinely interesting, engaging plot, good emotional beats for both Winchesters, a reminder that Dean and Cas are actually close friends who should be checking in on each other. I also like the way they handled the Mary issue. Mary and the boys have a way of keeping in touch, and are apparently using it. Neither Dean nor Mary is totally withdrawing from the relationship; it feels right that Dean asked if it was still OK to call her mom, and equally right that Mary answered yes. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

He might be directing an episode this season, and he got a short episode because he had to work on the episode he's directing.

Sadly, Jensen is not directing this season at all. He confirmed that before the season started. 

I can't say I care for this episode that much. I don't like that stigmata stuff at all.  I thought the score was awful.

This felt like a poor man's redux of s2  after John died. All the checkboxes of what Sam and Dean were back then but trying to apply to who they are today...doesn't quite work for me.

Dean who?  This is one of the worst Dean episodes I have ever seen. He literally had no effective role in this episode at all. He wasn't even damseled!  He didn't even need to be in it whatsoever.

I'm so glad Dean's abandonment issues were so thoughtfully addressed (sarcasm). I was actually happy to see that not get pushed to the wayside at the beginning.  He shuts down and doesn't want to talk and that his is prerogative. He was grumpy and sad and hurting with good reason IMO.  No discussion of why this hurts Dean so much just that Dean is not understanding Mary's position. Sigh.  Sam cajoles him ( just like after John's death) until he admits his emotions. And finally Dean tells Sam he's upset but he'll try to not be a dick. I didn't think Dean was really being that much of a dick, but okay.

He's wrong about about the wiccan chick but she hits on him. 

Dean apparently now drives slower than he ever has before because he misses all the action. Was there a traffic jam of cows in the country or something? No explanation as to why he didn't get there. WTF was that about.

Sam himself almost didn't need to be in it either.  He was damseled again but could at least talk to the girl to help her stop from killing her mother. Possible foreshadowing of Sam's psychic abilities returning ("I'm not sure I even have them anymore")? Also, Sam needs to just wear a helmet.

I guess it was Mr Ketch's motorcycle so good on those that called it.

Speaking of motorcycles, Sam was really stressing how family just needs to be apart at times.  I was really hoping Dean was going to say "You know what Sam. You're right. I need time to sort this out", he steals a motorcycle and takes off for a while by himself.  I'm still putting that out there for the mid-season finale. 

ETA:  I liked that Dean was texting Mary but I HATED the "I'm a 13 year old girl" line. As thought being worried and upset about Mary is not something a "man" would do and if he does then he's a 13 year old girl. Ugh. That's two shots at teenage girls this season. Stop it, show.

Edited November 4, 2016 by catrox14
more thoughts

[Binns]

Man, I thought this was terrific! Creeeeepy. Loved the story- I confess I sort of forgot about the preview so it came as a surprise when she turned out to be a psychic kid. I also thought it would be a ghost or vengeful spirit.

Much as I hated the ending, I think it was an effective way to tie the arc in. Those boys looked good in their outfits tonight...all of them. Especially liked Dean's tie for some reason. 

Liked Dean's line..."and I'm a 13 year old girl." Captured his emotions. I enjoyed the Sam & Dean moments a lot. Dean, tell your brother about the text! 

I'm really enjoying the season. It feels very old school SPN to me. And I've enjoyed most of the later seasons but have felt they were getting too bloated with bigger and bigger bad guys etc. I enjoy these vignettes with a few ties ins of the arc. Reminds me of X-files in a way. And so happy the boys are getting along so well. 

If you watched the con videos from maybe right before the season started, JA tipped us to the funny scene with the fence. If I remember correctly that was the boys' idea. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Binns

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

No wonder Lady Bevell was not happy that Mr Ketch was called in.  The guy murdered an innocent girl in cold blood.  I'm guessing Lady Bevell will learn about what Mr Ketch did, get her son out of Britain and help out Sam and Dean,  They've definitely set it up that Ketch is the big bad, and compared to him Lady Bevell was nice.  Oh props to whoever called it about the motorcycle last week being Mr Ketch's.

It seems like the motto this year is "Trust us, people are far scarier than demons."  Which of course goes against the British Men of Letters philosophy.

This seems like a solid play.  And as much as everyone would hate it, I'm thinking an LTB/Sam 'thing' was more than hinted at with the whole "honeypot" method she used in trying to get what she wanted out of Sam.  There were other methods & 'plays' to get the information she was after, but she went full on between the sheets (even if just in the mindscape, with the aid of a potion... and speaking of, seriously, tho, could you be anymore obvious Show?  Potions, British MOL?  Harry Potter anyone??)

So a human assassin is this season's "big bad"?  Oooh-k.  *nods vaguely and stares blankly into the distance*

I am so beyond done with Lucifer on this show.  I can't even muster the energy to pretend to care where they will take that arc for this season (and in the future).  That whole sequence of Dean saying "They had Rowena cast him to the bottom of the ocean" and Sam's reply of "Why'd they do that?"... I couldn't help but finish his sentence for him, in my mind, "... and why do we care?".

Edited November 4, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The other thing that bugged was that I don't buy that Dean would ever have considered killing the Wiccan on such thin evidence, nor that there would have been any question over whether or not Sam should have killed Magda. Even S1 Dean never killed a person he wasn't damn sure was guilty, and since Sam started manifesting powers, he also hasn't assumed that powers = evil, either. Magda didn't need a "second chance," unless one means "second chance to have a functional family life." Sam was right when he told her that the kills weren't her fault. True, Dean told Sam he did the right thing, but to me, that should have gone without saying.

That bothered me as well.  I think that was to show that Dean was just really upset about Mary and ready to do something reckless because he was upset. It's the only reason I can see for him to do that (unless the Mark of Cain is still affecting him in some way, which it really better not be at this point).

Or it was just a way plot contrivance to put the boys at odds so they would separate putting Sam in danger because he was alone.  It didn't make much sense to me.

[Binns]

JP is live-tweeting as is Davy Perez, FYI. 

[ahrtee]

Didn't like it much (though I wasn't paying much attention to it), but I'm not a real fan of standalone stories, even (or especially) if they're just creepy.  

They telegraphed the special kid "surprise" from the very beginning; they made Dean look foolish (again) several times (including his teenage girl angst over mom, being a dick to everyone, jumping to conclusions and refusing to listen to anything else, and not being able to climb over a 3-rail fence (really?...because if it *was* Jensen's idea to be funny, someone should have just said "no"). They tied Sam to a chair (again) and, even with Dean being *on the phone with Sam while he was captured*  Dean *still* didn't get there in time to save anyone. (Honestly, where was he? Still hanging out with the hot social worker?  He can get from Oregon to Kansas in one day but can't get from town to the farm in the time it took to knock Sam out, tie him up, wake him up, threaten the girl, bring them all upstairs, cook a full dinner and kill (or try to kill) several members of the family?)  (There might have been more but, as I said, I wasn't paying that much attention.)  

And then they set up the BMOL as not only Truly Evil but also set it so that Mr. Whatsit will probably come after Sam as well (since it appears they are willing to kill the special children just because). 

The only positive notes for me:  I was honestly terrified that Sam was going to wake up his dormant powers and push the knife away (DO. NOT. WANT. SPECIAL. SAM. AGAIN!) and Dean getting the text from Mom at the end.  I don't think Davy Perez has the boys' characters down, but he's closer than some other writers so maybe he'll learn.  

Maybe on rewatch I'll pay more attention and see more that I like, but since my attention kept wandering the first time, I'm not hopeful.

[Wynne88]

Quote

The other thing that bugged was that I don't buy that Dean would ever have considered killing the Wiccan on such thin evidence, nor that there would have been any question over whether or not Sam should have killed Magda. 

Admittedly, Dean went prepared to kill her, but it wasn't like he just walked in and went bang!  He took the time to question her and verify that she was (or as it turned out, wasn't) benefiting from her boss's death and wouldn't have wanted her dead.  (I personally think it would have freaked me out if he had shown up looming outside my door in an apparently deserted office.)  I'm guessing that when she asked why he was there, and he had already decided not to kill her, his plan B was to flirt, which led her to giving him her phone number later.

I have no idea why it took him so long to reach Sam, but I was glad he didn't get there in time to save him.  Bad enough Sam got tied up to a chair again (!), but I don't want his big brother to have to save him every single time.

Quote

 . . . and not being able to climb over a 3-rail fence (really?

I think it was actually a 3-bar aluminum gate.  I've tried to climb over them myself and they wiggle.  It's not so easy.  Of course, there was the option to go around . . .

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I think it was actually a 3-bar aluminum gate.  I've tried to climb over them myself and they wiggle.  It's not so easy.  Of course, there was the option to go around . . .

These are the same guys who (back in season 1) jumped over what, an 8-foot fence topped by barbed wire (in Phantom Traveler and maybe Asylum, too)?  Granted, they're 12 years older, but even so... :-)

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

These are the same guys who (back in season 1) jumped over what, an 8-foot fence topped by barbed wire (in Phantom Traveler and maybe Asylum, too)?  Granted, they're 12 years older, but even so... :-)

Dean took out 3 demons alone two years ago before he got the MoC. Dean was rolling around a wrestling ring and jumping off the ropes a few months ago. Dean is athletic. He would get over that easily fence easily.

 

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 He can get from Oregon to Kansas in one day but can't get from town to the farm in the time it took to knock Sam out, tie him up, wake him up, threaten the girl, bring them all upstairs, cook a full dinner and kill (or try to kill) several members of the family?

LOL Right? I had a similar thought. Dean goes from Kansas to Minnesota in 5 minutes BUT

#WhereDidDeanGo

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I called that it was Magda doing it, but I didn't think she was still alive.  I figured she was a ghost, and since wrongful death leads to a vengeful spirit, the wrongful death of one of Azazel's special children would lead to a very pissed off spirit.

No wonder Lady Bevell was not happy that Mr Ketch was called in.  The guy murdered an innocent girl in cold blood.  I'm guessing Lady Bevell will learn about what Mr Ketch did, get her son out of Britain and help out Sam and Dean,  They've definitely set it up that Ketch is the big bad, and compared to him Lady Bevell was nice.  Oh props to whoever called it about the motorcycle last week being Mr Ketch's.

It seems like the motto this year is "Trust us, people are far scarier than demons."  Which of course goes against the British Men of Letters philosophy.

That was me.  *smugly takes a bow*

And Mick, that was a Norton. Someone had a classic British motorcycle encyclopedia and sorted it out.

 

Well I loved it.  It was seriously intense.  I thought the beginning was suitably creepy.  I like the boys being "priests", able to recognize what it was and wasn't.  Go Sammy on the Aramaic.

Dean saying he's a 13 year old girl: I thought it was funny.  And it's because he's texting a bit of a "do you like me?" (not in THAT way) question to his Mom.  Still wants to know if she's his Mom.  I like seeing the vulnerable side of Dean.

I also think he REALLY wanted to shoot something this week and the Wiccan seemed like a chance.  I actually thought he was going to ask her out to cover up why he showed up.  I felt a little something something between the two.  Glad to see it play out later that she gave Dean her number. Not that he's likely to call it.

LOVED Sam's outburst at the mother and defense of what/who God really is (in the Supernatural universe).  His horror at what was happening was spot on.  Davy Perez did a good job with that script.  On the one hand, I think it's been so very long since we talked about the psychic kids that the "THEN" seemed warranted. But it TOTALLY spoiled the plot. I wonder if the Lady Toni connection w/ Sam will be that her son is "special"?

And how did I HATE that mother?!  E_VOL. Blaming the daughter, making her beat herself.  Yikes.  

Now she's younger than Sam... so was she really an Azazel kid or just randomly psychic?  I don't know.  I could see Azazel continuing to make arrangements until it became evident it was time to gear up for the Apocalypse.  But, I can also see just random psychic being a thing.

Finally, I LOVED that little tweet back from Mary.  You'd better share that with Sam, Dean.  He needs to know Mary is okay and still MOM.

I needed that text message almost as much as Dean.

Edited November 4, 2016 by SueB

[Wynne88]

I do wonder how the family convinced social services that Magda was dead.  I would have thought they would have to produce a body.  Just an idle thought.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

On the one hand, I think it's been so very long since we talked about the psychic kids that the "THEN" seemed warranted. But it TOTALLY spoiled the plot. I wonder if the Lady Toni connection w/ Sam will be that her son is "special"?

Could see that, especially if they make it a big deal script-wise that Mr Ketch takes out a bunch of 'special children' while "cleaning up after the Winchesters" and on the side.

But finding that I also hope they don't go that route, because how would her son have gotten his psychic abilities?  Did LTB (unwittingly?) sleep with a supernatural being, the kid has a similar 'origin story' as Sam, or was he just born with abilities??   IDK.  If done right it could work, but they need to make it believable and not just feel contrived for plot or to hamfistedly force a connection between LTB & Sam.

[Bessie]

Congrats to Davey Perez!  His first outing was solid.  I loved the case of the week and I missed the previously bit, so I was completely surprised that Magda was a psychic kid. The BMOL was tied into the episode in an organic way and there was no B-plot to cut to just when the story was getting good. The vast improvement in the storytelling it allowed for really emphasized the difficulty the writers (and editors) are having integrating the separate plots into a coherent whole. And it drove home for me that I'm just not interested if a plot doesn't directly involve one of the winchesters in a central role. At least when the focus is on Castiel, Crowley and Lucifer.  I'm done with them.

I do wish Dean was more involved, but I've never understood why, if the plot isn't focused on one brother or the other, the writers don't utilize both. I think this is something they've been guilty of throughout the course of the series. And I appreciate that Perez did not ignore Dean's shakiness with Mary. Plus, he did it without melodrama. Nice. 

[goldy]

Good episode, I really enjoyed it. I loved that it was just the brothers and the case they were working at, the show is always better when its just about Sam and Dean IMHO. and this episode really had an old fashioned supernatural feel to it.

I did feel like they could have done more with the brothers relationship in this episode, this is the first time since the show premiered that Sam and Dean were just with each other (there wasn't any big emergency like in the first two episodes and Mary and Cas weren't around to distract them) and I didn't like how Dean was an ass to Sam. I get that he's upset about Mary leaving, but there's no reason to take it out on Sam. 

Sam was really sweet and compassionate in this episode. I loved how he got mad at the mother, I loved how he was shocked and disturbed when he saw Magda getting tortured, I loved how he used his personal experience (of feeling like a freak because of an ability he has no control of and that he never wanted) to try and help Magda and I loved loved loved the way she lay her head on his shoulders in their finale scene, which is why I am so upset that she got killed off. She was just a kid, she suffered so much and she was so close to have her happy ending...

This might be an unpopular opinion but I kinda miss "special Sam" and hope he still has some of his abilities and that this is a build up to a storyline where he get to explore this again. Though, the more logical thing is that its a build up to the British MoL storyline (that will come along later in the season) and will expose some or the reasons Toni and the other British MoL don't think so highly of Sam and Dean, its probably because they see them as no different than the monsters they hunt. Sam with being formerly psychic and having a relationship with a demon (Ruby) and Dean, being friend with the vampire Benny, use to have the mark of cain and having a short period where was a demon (until Sam cured him). 

Dean redeemed himself in my eyes by the end of the episode by being so adorably happy to get the text message from Mary. This is what I love about Dean, he care about his family so much, he was so worried about his mom that he wasn't himself anymore. which is why I'm nervous about Mary's fate at the end of this season. If she'll die again, Dean would be devastated!

I wonder if we'll see Mary in next week episode, I think she either won't be in that episode or she'll show up just as the episode ends. 

[ae2]

Loved the episode. But I felt the stigmata wasn't fully explained. Somehow while trying to speak telepathically with the two people she... Flogged them, pierced their hands, and put the thorn crown imprint on their head? I'm sure we could come up with some hocus pocus explanation, but we usually get some exposition during the episode to explain it.

And I don't think she was special the same way Sam was - my read was that Sam just used it to connect with her, not to say she was an Azazel baby. The ages are way too different to make sense.

I was really rooting for her to turn the gun around on the assassin and come out alive so she could join Sheriff Jody Mills in South Dakota.

Edited November 4, 2016 by ae2

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

These are the same guys who (back in season 1) jumped over what, an 8-foot fence topped by barbed wire (in Phantom Traveler and maybe Asylum, too)?  Granted, they're 12 years older, but even so... :-)

I think it was actually a 3-bar aluminum gate.  I've tried to climb over them myself and they wiggle.  It's not so easy.  Of course, there was the option to go around . . .

Hah!  Here i was thinking the joke was that Dean wasn't used to climbing fences with those tight dress slacks (instead of comfy Jeans) and that's why he struggled to get over the fence

Edited November 4, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Demented Daisy]

I think that someone on staff must be a Stephen King fan.  Last season, we had the IT episode (lots of references in Just My Imagination).  And the flash of Heart-Shaped Box by Joe Hill (Stephen King's son) in Love Hurts.  This week was the Carrie episode -- the psychic teenage daughter and ultra-religious mother.  I wonder if Mr. Ketch is going to be the SPN equivalent of the Man in Black....

Anyway, this was an okay episode.  Solid.  Not terribly exciting, though that should be expected from a show in its 12th season,  I suppose.

[poppy-]

Old school mystery , no Crowley or his friggin mother. I'll take it. 

The opening murder was  creepy. I don't think the kind of weirdo Christians that family was are the stigmata  / Aramaic type but OK.

When the revealed the psychic kids in the previouslies, I was cool with it, but it did give me this awkward moment of trying to think "who is the one who shares Sam's birthday".......... cause  the mom is closer than the 18 year old.  Awkward! But, since it turned out to be just a psychic thing, I think the previouslies were really unnecessary anyway.

Biggest mystery: why so much makeup & glam to work at Child Protective Services?

I loved that it was a one-story episode and I hope they do more of them.

[Myrelle]

I'm skipping this one as it seems like every one of my fears from last week were already realized in this one. What a lousy start to the season.

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

it seems like every one of my fears from last week were already realized in this one

Such as?

[Myrelle]

Dean/JA strictly used to prop Sam/JP's Capt. Empathy role and Dean's abandonment issues/childhood parentification back burnered again. Dean had to learn yet another lesson and made to apologize even calling himself a dick and a jerk. *waits now for those who will say he WAS being a dick and a jerk to Sam and this is how Dean acts when he's hurting and blah, blah, blah...* 

And I haven't even watched the episode. It's cookie cutter, cut 'n' paste writing whenever the brother dynamic is explored now. It's been this way since S5 and I'm so over it and it's what I feared when we got that brother scene last week. The writing was on the wall *waits now for those who will say if you expect negative things to happen they will, never realizing that it's really only logical thinking if you just go by the writing history on this show*

Was hoping for change, but nope. Same old. Same old.

Wake me up when they decide to have other characters acknowledge those Dean issues as genuine and painful and as having damaged him irreparably in some ways. I'll keep checking in to see if an episode ever gets written to that effect.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Myrelle
Capitalizationa and punctuation

[Jynnan tonnix]

I really enjoyed this one, and even the ending, which angered me immensely, seemed like a good way to insert some real emotional response to Ketch's character. Rarely have I reacted with that sort of hatred for one of the bad guys. They can be frightening, but don't often arouse quite that viscerally furious a reaction.

I think it's smart that the focus this season seems to be more that regular human beings can be at least as bad as monsters and demons...They have upped the stakes so high as far as supernatural threats in the past few seasons that there is literally nowhere else to go, and it will be sort of refreshing to be able to have some lower-key supernatural threats and have more of the actual conflict come from human sources. Not sure how popular an opinion that will prove to be, but it works for me. Of course there is still the whole Lucifer thing on the back burner but maybe they can keep it there for a while.

Agreeing with Wynne88 upthread that one of the biggest plot holes for me was how they convinced CPS that Magda was dead. It seems that especially given the fact that they were already being watched, CPS would want to ascertain exactly what the cause of death was, and not having a body to examine would be a huge red flag for them.

Also agree with those who feel that Dean's jumping to the conclusion he did about the Wiccan was a bit of a clumsy plot device...but he was so cute in her office after deciding she was no threat after all that I forgave it. I liked her anyway, and would not mind seeing her come back in some capacity. Even though I suspect that she's more of a new-agey Wiccan than one who actually bothers with spells, etc, there is still that facet that they can expand on should they choose to bring her into the storyline somewhere down the road.

And, finally, I may be bound for Perdition myself, but Holy Hell, the sight of Dean as a priest always makes me all SORTS of weak at the knees...

Edited November 5, 2016 by Jynnan tonnix
minor tweaking

[DittyDotDot]

So, Mr. Ketch is just going to run around behind Sam and Dean and kill anything supernatural? Okay. 

Welp, I've been really looking forward to some of these one-offs, but this one just didn't do it for me. Too preachy and too talky, too obvious and not at all creepy enough. Not the worst thing they've ever done, but not really a good one either. ::shrugs::  It was nice to see them pull out three different disguises in one episode, though. And, I thought their disagreement about Vince Vincete at the top of the episode was pretty charming. I guess I'll take what I can get.

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I haven't even watched the episode. It's cookie cutter, cut 'n' paste writing whenever the brother dynamic is explored now. It's been this way since S5 and I'm so over it and it's what I feared when we got that brother scene last week. the writing was on the wall *waits now for those who will say if you expect negative things to happens they will never realizing that it's really only logical thinking if you just go by the writing history on this show*

Was hoping for change, but nope. Same old. Same old.

Now, I'm not saying it actually has, but how is it you know it hasn't changed if you haven't actually seen the episode?

11 hours ago, Jediknight said:

He might be directing an episode this season, and he got a short episode because he had to work on the episode he's directing.

Sorry, Jensen's not directing this year. I'm not sure why he was so light in this one. Maybe he asked for some time off for some personal reason? 

8 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I do wonder how the family convinced social services that Magda was dead.  I would have thought they would have to produce a body.  Just an idle thought.

They probably told them they cremated her as per their religious beliefs or some bullshit. Whatever.

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Agreeing with Wynne88 upthread that one of the biggest plot holes for me was how they convinced CPS that Magda was dead. It seems that especially given the fact that they were already being watched, CPS would want to ascertain exactly what the cause of death was, and not having a body to examine would be a huge red flag for them.

I agree with @Wynne88 too. I was also taken out of the story when, apparently CPS and her aunt thought it appropriate to stick Magda on a bus after enduring physical and emotional abuse and watching her abuser mother murder the rest of her family.

[Myrelle]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Now, I'm not saying it actually has, but how is it you know it hasn't changed if you haven't actually seen the episode?

Honestly? All one has to do these days is to read the boards after the episode airs.

So tell me, DID any of that actually change?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 If she'll die again, Dean would be devastated!

As this episode established his feelings aren`t valid and he is a dick for being hurt who needs to learn a lesson, get over it and apologize. I mean, they kinda paralleled him with the evil mother for being "clingy and horrible". So if he was "devastated", I`m sure it would be portrayed as an invalid feeling that he needed to get over already.

Other than that, he was made out to look stupid and incompetent in everything he did here. Gee, that "fence joke" was painfully unfunny. And why was he in the episode again? You could cut each of his scenes easily. The screentime wouldn`t be the issue but the quality of the material is. And, four episodes and counting with no badass scenes.

Meanwhile Sam basically got a blowjob from the new writer. Fluent Aramaic? Give me a break. I can only pray they won`t bring back those stupid powers on top of everything. I might actually puke then.

Garbage episode. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Honestly? All one has to do these days is to read the boards after the episode airs.

So tell me, DID any of that actually change?

I don't think there's any point in me answering that question. Despite me having a very different view of the show than you, if you haven't seen the episode, it's not like you and I can actually discuss it. 

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched the episode now, and it was sort of a mixed bag for me.  There were a few scenes I liked, and I normally like the "people can be bigger monsters than actual monsters" episodes, so that was fine.  And yes, Dean does make a particularly fetching priest, which is all sorts of wrong.

I did not like how they treated Dean's feelings about his mother, or his sense of abandonment, etc.  Sam needs to lay off and be a bit more understanding of Dean's perspective on this.  Dean is not an asshole, and he'd already reached out to his mother on his own to make sure she was ok.  He is absolutely entitled to feel the way he feels, just the same as Mary is entitled to do what she needs to do to work through things.  His reaction last week to her leaving was not wrong or inappropriate, it was genuine, and I really am tired of the "just get over it" stance where Dean's feelings are concerned.

It will be nice to watch the boys take down Mr. Ketch later this season.  

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile Sam basically got a blowjob from the new writer.

And at Dean's expense. Again. That's what I'm reading from those that I trust. I don't need the stomach upset, so people here can save the "how can you judge if you didn't watch? I never judge anything w/o watching myself/firsthand experience." The writing on this show is so beyond predictable sometimes that it makes actually viewing it practically moot-and as I said my stomach isn't up to it.  I actually saw that the writer tweeted during this one and called the apology scene the Walk of Blame. I also saw that some Deanfans suggested he get to know the other main character on the show and include him in his episode next time.

But hey, there's plenty of pretty pictures of Jensen over on tumblr. I'll have to settle for those this week.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As this episode established his feelings aren`t valid and he is a dick for being hurt who needs to learn a lesson, get over it and apologize. I mean, they kinda paralleled him with the evil mother for being "clingy and horrible". So if he was "devastated", I`m sure it would be portrayed as an invalid feeling that he needed to get over already.

I think they paralleled Dean with the girl locked in the basement. I don't think they were saying Dean's hurt was invalid at all. In fact, I think they were saying it was natural for Dean to feel hurt and angry, but just because you have valid reasons for your hurt and anger, doesn't mean you get a free pass to do whatever you want. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

but just because you have valid reasons for your hurt and anger, doesn't mean you get a free pass to do whatever you want. 

I didn't find Dean's behavior to be all that outrageous that he needed to be called on it by Sam.  Him suspecting the wiccan to be behind the murders was certainly not abnormal.  Neither Sam nor Dean have much use for witches, so that was sort of a no-brainer, at least at the beginning.  It took him all of 2 seconds of conversation with her to rule that out, so he was hardly irrational about it.

The episode was very heavy on the "Sam is the rational, calm, sensitive one, and Dean just needs to get over himself", and that can be more than a little annoying.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

In fact, I think they were saying it was natural for Dean to feel hurt and angry, but just because you have valid reasons for your hurt and anger, doesn't mean you get a free pass to do whatever you want. 

But what did Dean do that was apparently so wrong? He didn`t want to talk about it and that to me is a perfectly valid way of dealing. Sam needling him to talk met with a slightly grumpy reaction. How horrible. I saw no reason that Dean had to learn a lesson here. Mary wasn`t made to learn a lesson on why Dean`s feelings might be valid. Which makes sense since I do believe show is saying they are not.

Quote

I actually saw that the writer tweeted during this one and called the apology scene the Walk of Blame. 

  Because when people hurt you, you are to blame for being hurt and have to apologize. Maybe in opposite land. And this show. 

[Hana Chan]

Another solid ep. Color me impressed.

Glad to see that I'm not the only one that missed Sam's powers and was glad to see them revisited, even if it was through Magda (RIP). I'm kind of enjoying storylines where the supernatural is the supporting player in the very human dramas (in this case, a very, very warped family). Supernatural, for me at least, has always been it's best when it focuses on the human elements.

Didn't miss Castiel or Crowley and really hope that the whole Lucifer storyline takes a serious back seat because I'm tired of seeing Sam and Dean and supporting players in their own series. As for the BMOL... yeah, they're going to be one of the big bads this season because while Sam and Dean have seen enough of the supernatural up close and personal, they know that everything isn't black and white. There's no room for nuance with their British counterparts who wouldn't understand how a vampire could be an ally or why working with a demon might be advantageous. 

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think they were saying Dean's hurt was invalid at all. In fact, I think they were saying it was natural for Dean to feel hurt and angry, but just because you have valid reasons for your hurt and anger, doesn't mean you get a free pass to do whatever you want. 

Dean has every right to feel hurt over Mary leaving (and the Gods know that we can fill an encyclopedia with Dean's abandonment issues). But Dean having understandably hurt feelings doesn't negate that Mary had the right to do what was right for herself. She didn't ask to be ripped out of Heaven and dropped into a world that she barely understands in a lot of ways and finds that her two babies are now grown and damaged men (due in a large part to her mistakes). Taking some time for herself to figure things out so that she will be in some kind of shape to have a relationship with her boys instead of just faking that she was all right is the least that Mary could demand for herself. It wasn't done to hurt Dean.

And Dean does have a bad habit of closing himself off and lashing out when he's feeling emotionally injured. I think back to when John died and Dean was taking out his loss and anger on everyone around him (including Baby). After so long, maybe it's time for him to start getting past some of this.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Hana Chan

[goldy]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As this episode established his feelings aren`t valid and he is a dick for being hurt who needs to learn a lesson, get over it and apologize. I mean, they kinda paralleled him with the evil mother for being "clingy and horrible". So if he was "devastated", I`m sure it would be portrayed as an invalid feeling that he needed to get over already.

Other than that, he was made out to look stupid and incompetent in everything he did here. Gee, that "fence joke" was painfully unfunny. And why was he in the episode again? You could cut each of his scenes easily. The screentime wouldn`t be the issue but the quality of the material is. And, four episodes and counting with no badass scenes.

Meanwhile Sam basically got a blowjob from the new writer. Fluent Aramaic? Give me a break. I can only pray they won`t bring back those stupid powers on top of everything. I might actually puke then.

Garbage episode. 

I didn't see it that way. Dean was upset about his mom leaving and I got the feeling that he had a hard time thinking about anything else so it made him grumpy and he was kind of a dick for a while there. But I'm okay with that and I still love Dean and think he's an amazingly good guy and a great brother. We all have our bad days.  

And sure, Sam was writen in a more complimentary way in this episode but he's been writen in a none complimentary way in the past (he spent most of season 4 and season 8 being an ass) and while I love Sam I'm totally okay with it. I like my characters flawed and I'm sure that later in the season we'll see an episode or two of Sam being a total dick to Dean and we'll see an episode of Dean being writen in a more sympathetic way than Sam and I'll be fine with it too. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And Dean does have a bad habit of lashing out when he's feeling emotionally injured. I think back to when John died and Dean was taking out his loss and anger on everyone around him (including Baby). After so long, maybe it's time for him to start getting past some of this.

And Sam never has a bad day, or takes his feelings out on other people, or flat out acts like a dick sometimes?  Sorry, I don't normally get involved in the Sam vs. Dean conversations, because I really do think that in most cases, it's all just a matter of who your favorite is, but I couldn't disagree with the above quote more if I tried.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And Dean does have a bad habit of closing himself off and lashing out when he's feeling emotionally injured. I think back to when John died and Dean was taking out his loss and anger on everyone around him (including Baby).

Kind of like John used to do to Dean, IMO, and from what we've seen of that relationship. But let's not go there. No exploration/acknowledgment from his loved ones necessary, in that regard. Dean should just get over/past it. Yeah, I think the writers might be in agreement with you on that one. Now if only all those contrary and pesky Deanfans would fall into line.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

and I'm sure that later in the season we'll see an episode or two of Sam being a total dick to Dean and we'll see an episode of Dean being writen in a more sympathetic way than Sam

I would not take that bet. They would find a way to say it was Dean`s own fault. Writing him in a sympathetic or complimentary way does not appear to be a thing this Season. He can`t even climb a tiny fence anymore, no wonder he can`t win a single fight. And he appears to have no hunter instincts also. No wonder he randomely wandered out of this ep and just returned after everything was done.   

[goldy]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Sam never has a bad day, or takes his feelings out on other people, or flat out acts like a dick sometimes?  Sorry, I don't normally get involved in the Sam vs. Dean conversations, because I really do think that in most cases, it's all just a matter of who your favorite is, but I couldn't disagree with the above quote more if I tried.

He does. They both have their bad days for sure. Today it was Dean's turn to be a jerk, it doesn't mean that he's a bad person though, he is just flawed, like Sam is flawed, like I am flawed, like all humans are flawed. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by goldy
spelling

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He can`t even climb a tiny fence anymore,

That's on Ackles, not the writers. From what I understand, it was an ad lib. I thought it was funny, but I also interpreted it as him trying to get over the fence carefully since he was wearing his role playing clothes.