S33.E07: I Will Destroy You

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, green said:

2 hours ago, green said:

Funny because Zeke is my pick to win the whole thing. 

He recovered nicely with the tribal swap and has pretty strong connections with both Chris and David now to add to his Adam one.  Heck David even told him about his idol.  And through them he has semi-connections now with Ken and Jessica as well as Brett and Sunday.  And even screwed over Hannah will likely want to join his "side."  They all form a very loose alliance against the now Michaela-shieldless Jay Gang.  (Yes Jay, YOU are now the face of that alliance and everyone will be targeting you first last and foremost and your idol can only save you once).

Anyway Zeke sits like a spider at the center of all these web of people vs The Jay Gang.  And he will not be seen as an immunity threat.  He will totally fall under the radar for some time to come.  He is good to go for a long time in this game unless he suddenly freaks out and goes crazy or gets injured or something.  He is not on anyone's radar to vote out and has strong allies in David, Chris and Adam and through them with all the others.

So we got The Jay Gang of Jay, Will and probably Taylor and possibly Michelle.  Though Michelle could see the writing on the wall and try and make side deals with her latest tribe members.

We have the Gen-Xer's who should be smart enough to set any differences aside enough to take out at least one if not two of the above before they start attacking each other.

And we have Zeke, Adam and now screwed over Hannah seeing openings more with the Gen-Xers.  Once The Jay Gang is honed down some then all the marbles start to roll around and anything can happen which means that Zeke, Adam and Hannah won't just be at the bottom of some Revenge of the Gen-Xers scenario alliance. And of the three, Zeke has his hands in the most pots of possible mini-alliances. 

Of course if Jessica and her paranoia screw things up all bets are off.  Though I don't see how simple-minded Taylor will remain "loyal" to her once the merge happens and he can go back to his home boy, Jay.

I respect your opinion that Zeke will win the whole thing.  My opinion is that Chris will likely win. But you know what they say about opinions. Survivor is often full of surprises.

But I don't understand why it appears that you are quoting yourself without adding any new text. Am I missing something (that is very possible)? Or did you make some kind of mistake?

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, hincandenza said:

HA HA HA HA well ding dong, the witch is dead.  Michaela was just the epitome of class as she left, eh?  That was among the top 5 poorest examples of sportsmanship in being booted I've ever seen on Survivor; a less graceful exit doesn't come immediately to mind, but I'm sure they exist.  I'm sure she'll do great in life believing that everyone around her exists solely to boost up her own success.  Seriously, blindside or no, that was some shitty, mean-spirited, attitude and aggressive body language; hell, when she went back for her shoes I thought for sure she was going to punch Jay.  I loathed Abi in S31: Second Chances, and consider her a mentally ill person who should not have been on the show; yet even Abi accepted her blindside with some grace.  

<snip>

I cannot disagree with you. Yes. It was poor sportsmanship. But how important do you think it is to act like a good sport after people have lied to you and betrayed you?  The other side of the coin is that no one can ever call Michaela a "phoney".  Heh. Heh. Heh.

I would not have begrudged her being a whole lot more direct in telling Jay what she thought of him.

Edited November 4, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, hincandenza said:

HA HA HA HA well ding dong, the witch is dead.  Michaela was just the epitome of class as she left, eh?  That was among the top 5 poorest examples of sportsmanship in being booted I've ever seen on Survivor; a less graceful exit doesn't come immediately to mind, but I'm sure they exist.  I'm sure she'll do great in life believing that everyone around her exists solely to boost up her own success.  Seriously, blindside or no, that was some shitty, mean-spirited, attitude and aggressive body language; hell, when she went back for her shoes I thought for sure she was going to punch Jay.  I loathed Abi in S31: Second Chances, and consider her a mentally ill person who should not have been on the show; yet even Abi accepted her blindside with some grace.  

<SNIP>

So I have to praise Jay for actually realizing "Hm, maybe now is the time to do this", and Brett and Sunday totally played their parts well in acting as if they were just glumly waiting for the guillotine to fall.  And major props to Jay for staring her down: I'd have been sorely tempted to mention "Well, you won't even make the jury, so I don't give a crap what you think of me.  Bye bye now".

I can't resist pointing out how much venom you seemed to spit at Michaela for being a "poor sport". But then you come out with this?  Don't you think people might wonder how you can criticize Michaela on the one hand and then tell us how you'd like to act out in a way that would make you an even worse sport?

Edited November 4, 2016 by AliShibaz

[KimberStormer]

9 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I'm beginning to think Michelle is someone who is not good under pressure. And she screwed up the last time she was responsible for something (puzzle), so that probably places even more pressure on her. It's all in her head. 

What puzzle did she screw up?  I don't remember any.  On the Millenial tribe, she and Figgy destroyed the Gen-Xers at the (yes, easier for them) puzzle.  At the balance beam challenge she got in the flow, as Jay said, and won the wall cube puzzle.  She and Figgy made a lot of progress on the word puzzle before Zeke gave them the key to completing it.  On her swapped tribe, she won the blindfold challenge single-handedly (after David put them dead last single-handedly) with her puzzle skills.  She and Zeke probably won them that reward by figuring out how to do the net part 3 times faster than anybody else.  She's sort of a wild card in challenges, either doing great or terribly, but mostly it seems the physical part is what kills her (like the buoy, or struggling with her crazy leg-swinging dance during the labyrinth thing that Michaela had to coach them on.)  She definitely messed up this time, probably mixing up which combinations she had already tried.

9 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Do you remember a recent confessional in which Zeke made fun of one of the members of some other tribe who was good to Zeke's tribe?

I don't actually, remind me?  When was that?

One thing I forgot to say but wanted to was that I found that Adam/Taylor scene hilarious!  Mostly because of the previous Hannah/Zeke scene where Adam kept telling her "he doesn't want to talk right now"; and here's Adam pulling a not-identical but still quite similar act on Taylor.  I assume as a Survivor nerd he has read the forums a few too many times and has it in his head as an axiom that you've got to own your moves so as not to be like Amanda Kimmel.  There's a philosophy story/joke about an escapee from an insane asylum who, to make sure people don't suspect he's mad, decides to say something that everyone knows is true and nobody would argue with.  So he just runs around saying "THE WORLD IS ROUND!" to everyone he sees, and is back in the asylum by nightfall.  That's what Adam reminded me of.

It is funny for Jessica to think immediately of turning on Adam and working with Taylor, since Taylor is no gamer and Adam clearly is.  I don't know if it's a bad idea exactly.  Work with someone to get out of the minority, then get rid of them; it's cutthroat but it could work well in the right situation, especially pre-jury when Adam might be fuming but couldn't do anything about it.

[hincandenza]

Quote

 

I cannot disagree with you. Yes. It was poor sportsmanship. But how important do you think it is to act like a good sport after people have lied to you and betrayed you?  The other side of the coin is that no one can ever call Michaela a "phoney".  Heh. Heh. Heh.

I would not have begrudged her being a whole lot more direct in telling Jay what she thought of him.

 

 

29 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

I can't resist pointing out how much venom you seemed to spit at Michaela for being a "poor sport". But then you come out with this?  Don't you think people might wonder how you can criticize Michaela on the one hand and then tell us how you'd like to act out in a way that would make you an even worse sport?

Michaela was a poor sport; who are you saying in the history of Survivor had a less graceful, more bitter exit?  Once someone is a poor sport, you're entitled to give as well as you get.  You're also entitled to imagine what you'd do, what you'd even like to do... but not do it.  See, that's maturity and wisdom: recognizing that we have thoughts in our head, but we don't always have to say these things. You see it in Survivor all the time: the people who just can't help spouting off their opinions, and losing the game because of it.  Michaela did it, others have done it, while successful players often just nod and smile, nod and smile.  

Me personally, if I blindsided someone and they acted like Michaela did, I might very well point out "Well, you have no power here, so rant all you want, you still gotta leave".  Because it's true, and it feels good to knock the wind out of some pompous ass's sails, like Jay did to Michaela by not being some pushover blubbering forgive-bot when she confronted him.  He's also free to say nothing else, which is the tack I likely would have chosen... but in my head, or as a non-participant on these forums, I'd sure be throwing some fierce shade!

[laprin]

Jay did what he thought he had to do. However, he is dead to me now. I wish nothing but ill will to come his way. Hope the bite in his ass is a very painful one.  There, I feel better already. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by laprin
spelling

[SlackerInc]

4 hours ago, PerfidiousAmber said:

I'm sorry, but I wasn't brought up to accept flatulence at the "table" to be an acceptable practice. When other people are still eating? No. If they were that badly off they should have excused themselves to go off elsewhere at least a little bit.

At an actual table, in a conventional social situation?  Sure.  (Although it's also rude to leave a social situation for an hour or more.)  But this is Survivor, where people don't bathe and lie on bamboo together every night.  It's not clear there was anywhere for them to go; and if they still had the possibility of stuffing themselves with more food, it doesn't count as gluttony when you only have limited opportunities to supply yourself fuel for challenges.

[simplyme]

3 hours ago, hincandenza said:

Contrary to Michaela thinking she was owed a final four berth, clearly Jay and Will were comfortable enough to throw her to the side and still have people they can work with; they also have sewn up their HII secret to stay between them.  I don't think it will even backfire because post-merge, those individual tribal alliances are very quick to reshuffle anyway; can anyone here honestly say the merged tribe, whenever it comes, has a crystal clear Pagong line set up? 

I will respectfully disagree. I don't think there needs to be a crystal clear Pagong line set up. It just takes enough people who see Jay as one of the primary threats to remove from the game ASAP and the ability to do so. I'd guess that within the next two votes or so, unless he wins immunity, Jay either has to play his HII to save himself or he's gone.

Of course, I've been wrong before. :)  I can't wait to see how things shake out. *bounces*

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, hincandenza said:

 

Michaela was a poor sport; who are you saying in the history of Survivor had a less graceful, more bitter exit?  Once someone is a poor sport, you're entitled to give as well as you get.  You're also entitled to imagine what you'd do, what you'd even like to do... but not do it.  See, that's maturity and wisdom: recognizing that we have thoughts in our head, but we don't always have to say these things. You see it in Survivor all the time: the people who just can't help spouting off their opinions, and losing the game because of it.  Michaela did it, others have done it, while successful players often just nod and smile, nod and smile.  

Me personally, if I blindsided someone and they acted like Michaela did, I might very well point out "Well, you have no power here, so rant all you want, you still gotta leave".  Because it's true, and it feels good to knock the wind out of some pompous ass's sails, like Jay did to Michaela by not being some pushover blubbering forgive-bot when she confronted him.  He's also free to say nothing else, which is the tack I likely would have chosen... but in my head, or as a non-participant on these forums, I'd sure be throwing some fierce shade!

Well said. I respect your position.

[peachmangosteen]

Quote

I really hate the immediate cries of racism when people of color are voted off a show because in my opinion, it starts to cheapen a very real and serious issue. 

And I really hate that people are downplaying the fact that 6 of the 7 first boots were woc and acting as if it's insane and ridiculous for people to wonder about that.

10 hours ago, huahaha said:

I didn't really understand Michaela's outrage. She did the same thing to Mari, for similar reasons.

They're not a similar situation. We know from Michaela's exit interviews that early on Jay and Michelle were the only people who even talked to her in the tribe, so she felt she had something with them that she didn't have with Mari. So her voting out Mari makes complete sense now and her intense feeling of betrayal over Jay's move is understandable.

Edited November 4, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[Guest]

10 hours ago, huahaha said:

Ha! I loved Hannah knowing that Brett was a cop. He is a total stereotype of one. See Matt Parkman from Heroes:

 

 

Oh wow, you nailed it!  HA

[TaraS1]

18 hours ago, wings707 said:

Brett the funeral director, yuh.  "Ok youse guys I am here to give yous comfort.  Have a set down I maybe get ya some coffee or guide you witch your grief."  

His terrible answers to Hannah's questions were hilarious - "Yeah, people die and then there are funerals and, ya know...we plan the funerals and stuff...."  If you are going to make up a new career for yourself, please take ten seconds before you leave home and google said career.

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

I like Michaela and hope we see her again but that stare down was epic. "Yeah, I did that."  I like someone who takes responsibility for his actions in this game rather than snivel and apologize.  (Looking at you, Adam.)

I have so many mixed feelings about that whole thing.  Michaela reacted like I have always wanted/expected someone to react to being voted off.  Like, "What the fuck, man?!  Are you serious?!  Screw you!!"  Because that is totally how I would want to react myself lol.  But when she started to walk back over - before she said she was getting her shoes - that was an "Oh shit" moment, because while I didn't think she was going to punch Jay, I didn't know for sure what she was going to do.  But all that being said, I thought her reaction came from being hurt that she was losing her chance to take the million home to her family, and pissed because she blamed Jay for taking it from her.  I kinda sympathized with her in that moment. 

And I had total respect for Jay staring back at her and telling her he did it.  That's not an easy reaction to have when someone is confronting you.  If poor Hannah had been in his shoes, she probably would have run off into the jungle and hidden somewhere.  

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

And I really hate that people are downplaying the fact that 6 of the 7 first boots were woc and acting as if it's insane and ridiculous for people to wonder about that.

I never suggested it was insane and ridiculous for people to wonder about the boot list so far this season. However, I will disagree when broad statements like the show is racist are made when the patterns and statistics on the show do not align with that accusation. Survivor has been on the air since 2001. If there was some agenda against women of color or just people of color in general it would have been clear from the list of winners and general patterns of the show and the fact is that is simply not the case. 

Yes this season so far has had a disproportionate number of women of color being voted out so far but that was not the case last season where we saw white women booted early, like Liz who was voted out in the third episode and it wasn't the previous season in Second Chances where Vytas, a white man was the first one booted. And that season, Jeremy won, a black guy who won in a landslide vote and who everyone seemed to like so much that they never even realized how much he was running away with the game. 

But this season is different and suddenly the entire show and creator must be racist? All I'm saying is that if those kinds of broad statements are going to be made, there has to be a pattern or consistency of this and I simply disagree that there has been on Survivor. Like I could see how some were bothered when American Idol just kept having a slew of white guys from some small towns, strumming their guitar, as winners. Yeah that made people side-eye and wonder about the viewing audience who voted for the show.

That is not Survivor, especially again because Survivor doesn't rely on audience voting. So that's another factor in a statement like the one made about the show. For the "whole show is racist" to be the case, are we suggesting that Survivor only casts a bunch of racists who will always boot the person of color out first? Again, YMMV but as a woman of color myself who fully acknowledges the reality of the world we live in, especially considering this current election climate, I have no problem seeing racism and bias where it exists. However, I don't believe in making broad generalizations and accusations when in my opinion, there isn't evidence or a pattern of behavior to support that. Because as I said, I do think that in itself is dangerous because it creates the risk of cheapening a very serious situation. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's not like Jeremy was specifically rewarded because he was black, either.  In my opinion (and I think it was a common one) Jeremy played a good 'hiding himself' / 'nearly invisible' game where Spencer himself - I believe - admitted he didn't think about the possibility of Jeremy beating him - correct me if I'm wrong.  It's too simplistic for me to say, there has been a black winner on Survivor therefore racism does not exist on this show.

We've all seen the reactions here when a black woman is somewhat herself and says what's on her mind. I don't think Michaela did anything "cruel" or "threatening" yet you'll find those words peppered here.  I think Jeremy was incredibly careful about what he said and his body language.  Which is probably why so many observed that Michaela better reign herself back in.  I feel like if Figgy stared at the people who voted her out, said "You made a big mistake" or "Now you'll look like an asshole" and then swiped at a tree, people would not express fear.  

It's the 7th episode, yet we still haven't seen a boot this season where somebody thought to themselves, I'm going to take this powerful male threat out of the competition.  I have nearly zero recollection of (Paul?) so somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  So there perhaps has been 1 out of 7 boots that was an example of this.  Yet, Jay focused like a laser on Michaela being a threat to him. I think this is more of a female thing.  Females can be booted because they're seen as less useful, or direct competition, or "threatening".  Or naggy. Or bossy.  To be honest, I think people pick the bootee first and come up with a lazy justification after, i.e. "Lucy was BOSSY." To claim 6 out of 7 boots being female is a mere coincidence -- no offence but I cannot understand that.  There's an inherent bias that everyone has.  I have it too.  People see males in a different way than they see females and this show is a great highlight of that.  Things are even more sped up and apparent on a show like this where we focus on a tiny population who are forced to get rid of "perceived threats" very quickly.  It's almost like with this particular cast, men get to slide through the game nearly invisibly, unless they're somebody like Paul (?).  Who ironically was  invisible to me, I guess.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

It's too simplistic for me to say, there has been a black winner on Survivor therefore racism does not exist on this show.

I never said Jeremy won because he was black. I specifically said that people liked him so much that they didn't even realize how much of a threat he was. And I never said that a black winner on the show automatically means racism does not exist on the show. Because by that same token, that's been my point in saying that a season of a disproportionate number of women of color being booted one after the other does not automatically make the show racist. 

Quote

We've all seen the reactions here when a black woman is somewhat herself and says what's on her mind. I don't think Michaela did anything "cruel" or "threatening" yet you'll find those words peppered here.

These words were not peppered on the show and by the cast. They were made by viewers posting on this message board. Opinions of some viewers watching the show is not a reflection of Survivor itself, especially as noted, Survivor is the rare reality show that does not put the results in the hands of the viewing public. Also, plenty of people used words like threatening and violent and misogyny last season when Scott and Jason were being vile assholes and they were both white men. And speaking of Figgy, she seemed to get plenty of hate here and she's a white woman. But then that was argued as sexism on the show.

My point is seems to me some are taking the views expressed here and attributing it to the show. Survivor doesn't hate women because viewers on message boards attack the pretty women all the time. My point is and continues to be, that unless you prove a pattern of behavior on the show and in its history, it is unfair to just dismiss it as racist, which is a harsh accusation. And in my opinion, years of watching this show, I don't think the accusation is valid. But this is off topic now and I'm so done with the conversation. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[sadiegirl1999]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 I feel like if Figgy stared at the people who voted her out, said "You made a big mistake" or "Now you'll look like an asshole" and then swiped at a tree, people would not express fear.  

  I have nearly zero recollection of (Paul?) so somebody correct me if I'm wrong.  So there perhaps has been 1 out of 7 boots that was an example of this.  Yet, Jay focused like a laser on Michaela being a threat to him.

I think this is more of a female thing.  Females can be booted because they're seen as less useful, or direct competition, or "threatening".  Or naggy. Or bossy.

 

I agree with all of this.

I do think Michaela was seen as outspoken. Is that b/c she's black? B/c she's a woman? Both? I don't know.

I too don't even remember Paul. He kept getting mentioned in this thread and I literally cannot even conjure up an image of what he looked like. I even said to myself..."there was a Paul?"

Finally, I also believe that when someone displays the characteristics of opinionated, strong, etc, as a man that is seen as an asset but for a woman, she's seen as a beyotch. (This applies to real life as well)

[Ms Blue Jay]

41 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Also, plenty of people used words like threatening and violent and misogyny last season when Scott and Jason were being vile assholes and they were both white men. 

Your analogy only works here if you think Michaela was acting like Scott and Jason which I do not think she was.  If you do not think that then the analogy doesn't really work.

Also, you seem to think I'm only speaking to you and replying to your post.  I was speaking in general because I've seen a lot of dismissiveness about any racism or sexism existing on Survivor.

I personally don't agree with the statement 'Survivor is a racist show'. I  think Survivor reveals interesting biases of the viewing public and the contestants that can be based on race, gender, class, sexual orientation that are also reflected in society at large.  I won't necessarily go so far as to say Survivor loves women though.  Jeff has been vocal about his love for strong alpha males - and I think he liked Michaela, personally - and probably beautiful young women - he even fucking dated at least one of them.  So that's another bias the show has.  He's a producer so I wonder if he's involved in casting.  Regarding casting, there could always stand to be more older contestants, more older women, more visible minorities, (even a whole cast of 18 of them, why the heck not?), people who aren't conventionally attractive, etc.  There was a whole slew of seasons where I was convinced that they'd only cast women with breast implants but I think that kind of fell out of style after a few seasons.  

Edited November 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Oholibamah]

13 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I've watched 99% of the Survivor seasons and Jay staring straight and unflinchingly at Michaela and saying "yeah I did" was one of my favorite moments of all time.  Who knows, maybe his vote wasn't smart for him in the long run, but in that moment I had mad respect for him and his guts.

Sure he was a straight shooter, but it's not like he would've said anything if she'd just stood up and walked away. This scene was unique because nobody's ever reacted like that to a blindside before. She called him out and he answered the question.

I still think he's an idiot. 

[Oholibamah]

41 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I never said Jeremy won because he was black. I specifically said that people liked him so much that they didn't even realize how much of a threat he was. And I never said that a black winner on the show automatically means racism does not exist on the show. Because by that same token, that's been my point in saying that a season of a disproportionate number of women of color being booted one after the other does not automatically make the show racist. 

These words were not peppered on the show and by the cast. They were made by viewers posting on this message board. Opinions of some viewers watching the show is not a reflection of Survivor itself, especially as noted, Survivor is the rare reality show that does not put the results in the hands of the viewing public. Also, plenty of people used words like threatening and violent and misogyny last season when Scott and Jason were being vile assholes and they were both white men. And speaking of Figgy, she seemed to get plenty of hate here and she's a white woman. But then that was argued as sexism on the show.

My point is seems to me some are taking the views expressed here and attributing it to the show. Survivor doesn't hate women because viewers on message boards attack the pretty women all the time. My point is and continues to be, that unless you prove a pattern of behavior on the show and in its history, it is unfair to just dismiss it as racist, which is a harsh accusation. And in my opinion, years of watching this show, I don't think the accusation is valid. But this is off topic now and I'm so done with the conversation. 

FWIW, nobody is saying that Survivor hates women or is racist (at least not in the decisions the contestants make. Editing and casting are whole other issues). 

But we can't just pretend Survivor exists in a vacuum where real world issues suddenly go away. To that end, the show DOES display dynamics of sexism and racism, and that is shitty to watch. 

Pattern of behaviour is what you're looking for? Rachel. Mari. Lucy. CeCe. Figgy. Michaela. Calling it "Coincidence" is willful blindness. 

[waving feather]

5 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

Sure he was a straight shooter, but it's not like he would've said anything if she'd just stood up and walked away. This scene was unique because nobody's ever reacted like that to a blindside before. She called him out and he answered the question.

I still think he's an idiot. 

Why would he need to say anything or do anything if she'd just stood up and walked away? He would be glad there was no drama. But since there was, he handled it perfectly, IMO.

[Oholibamah]

1 minute ago, waving feather said:

Why would he need to say anything or do anything if she'd just stood up and walked away? He would be glad there was no drama. But since there was, he handled it perfectly, IMO.

My point is that the scene was unique to Survivor because she had the balls to call him out. Answering a question doesn't really impress me. What else was he going to say?

[waving feather]

5 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

My point is that the scene was unique to Survivor because she had the balls to call him out. Answering a question doesn't really impress me. What else was he going to say?

It's not just his answer but the way he did it. In the past, contestants can't even look the blindsided one in the eyes when they vote them off. Even when they are not being called out! And when they are, they turn into sniveling messes making excuses or defensive jerks. Jay just calmly looked her in the eyes and answered her question and didn't back down under her glare.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes this season so far has had a disproportionate number of women of color being voted out so far

It also had a disproportionate number of women of color, period.  So are they voted out because they're women alone or did race matter?  Or was it their game play?  (I tend toward the latter, knowing women tend to go earlier, often, too.)  

 

19 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

FWIW, nobody is saying that Survivor hates women or is racist (at least not in the decisions the contestants make. Editing and casting are whole other issues). 

But we can't just pretend Survivor exists in a vacuum where real world issues suddenly go away. To that end, the show DOES display dynamics of sexism and racism, and that is shitty to watch. 

People in this forum have said 'the show is racist', I think.  

I agree the show displays dynamics of sexism and racism but I don't think it's shitty to watch.  Looking away is shitty.  It's a real thing, why not explore it.  

I do think overall though that tribe dynamics are mostly driven by non-racial things, especially past the initial days.  I have a feeling things get real out there quick, in those conditions.  Humans and even other species are always going to be more drawn toward others that are like themselves, though.  It's just biology.  Being aware of your natural (as in from nature) biases and intellectually interceding is what we do or at least should aim for.  

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

FWIW, nobody is saying that Survivor hates women or is racist (at least not in the decisions the contestants make. Editing and casting are whole other issues). 

This was the post in particular I was responding to. 

Quote

I'm completely fucking done with this show.  Really, how racist and sexist  is it?  All minority women voted out before the merge?  Only 4 women left? Mark Burnett is an ultra-conservative Trump supporter.  Over and out.

How exactly is that not calling the show racist?

Quote

 

Pattern of behaviour is what you're looking for? Rachel. Mari. Lucy. CeCe. Figgy. Michaela. Calling it "Coincidence" is willful blindness. 

 

I acknowledged the disproportionate number of women booted this season and the number of those who are women of color. But no, I don't consider one season of a show that's been on since 2001 proof of pattern of behavior in that regard, which is my point. As I said, Survivor has been on since 2001 and if we had seen a string of seasons of women of color being booted one after the other, then yes, that's a pattern that is questionable.

But a season that is coming off a season where it didn't happen does not a pattern or consistency make. Which is also why I mentioned American Idol. That is a show that I could say, yes, at some point the show became only white Middle America guys who played guitar, winning because they had like four/five seasons in a row where that happened. 

[green]

13 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I respect your opinion that Zeke will win the whole thing.  My opinion is that Chris will likely win. But you know what they say about opinions. Survivor is often full of surprises.

But I don't understand why it appears that you are quoting yourself without adding any new text. Am I missing something (that is very possible)? Or did you make some kind of mistake?

You got me.  I was trying to quote the post right above me and it must have gotten deleted somehow and my reply ended up in it's box instead looking like a quote as a result?  Only reason I can think of unless the board screwed up another of my posts which it did to two others in last couple of weeks.  Board seems really wonky of late.  But this doesn't seem the result of general wonkiness so I'll entirely own I somehow managed this all by myself.  :-)

And Chris isn't a bad guess too.  I just think he is doing too good in the challenges not to be targeted in the mid-game rounds is all.  But if this loose, quasi-alliance holds he may well survive provided he isn't up against Jay and his idol in a vote.

Also I want to thank the poster back a page or two that posted that link to the Mark Burnett article where we find out he is anything BUT a Trump supporter and MGM owns the rights to the editing room floor Trump clips from Apprentice and not him.  That he is actually very alarmed about that candidate and called him an out and out misogynist who he definitely is not supporting. 

Sorry if this was off topic but I hate when people falsely accuse someone of something like this above: "Mark Burnett is an ultra-conservative Trump supporter.  Over and out," with no proof and this being the internet it becomes a telephone game "fact" that gets repeated everywhere. I'm not a big Burnett fan at all but the guy deserves NOT to be accused of something he isn't here.  He is no saint for sure but he isn't the above either.

Now is there what I would term latent racism shown by some players on Survivor?  Absolutely.  But there is in the real world too and these players come from a population called "humans" so you are going to find it in the game at times. 

And some of this group of players probably think they are anything but racist but don't realize they carry some stereotypes with them they aren't even consciously aware of.  That is the hardest thing to get rid of in a person I think since it isn't out front and on the surface.  But it still is there.  But that isn't necessarily on Burnett.  It is on the individual players.

Edited November 4, 2016 by green

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It also had a disproportionate number of women of color, period.  So are they voted out because they're women alone or did race matter?  Or was it their game play?  (I tend toward the latter, knowing women tend to go earlier, often, too.)  

 

People in this forum have said 'the show is racist', I think.  

I agree the show displays dynamics of sexism and racism but I don't think it's shitty to watch.  Looking away is shitty.  It's a real thing, why not explore it.  

I do think overall though that tribe dynamics are mostly driven by non-racial things, especially past the initial days.  I have a feeling things get real out there quick, in those conditions.  Humans and even other species are always going to be more drawn toward others that are like themselves, though.  It's just biology.  Being aware of your natural (as in from nature) biases and intellectually interceding is what we do or at least should aim for.  

 

I'd just like to say that it's extremely difficult - almost impossible - to come right out and say that you know what's going on.  I have very little idea as to just what is going on at any individual moment.

Edited November 4, 2016 by AliShibaz

[AliShibaz]

13 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I don't actually, remind me?  When was that?

It was at the beginning of Episode 6 - about one minute into the show. Zeke was having a confessional and he said words to the effect, 

"Tribal was such a delight because those "silly Gen-Xers" sent home one of their own on the one tribe they had the numbers. Now all of a sudden, I seem to be in a power position with Chris and I'm so stoked. I'm a brand new baby in this game."

Seems to me that a very common happening on this show is when one of the players starts ridiculing players on another tribe or bragging about how great their tribe is playing or talking about what a great position they are in ... that often signals their impending demise.

Zeke was not only laughing at the Gen-X people. He was talking about what a great position he was now in. I kind of figured he would be leaving - if not during that episode, then very soon.  I think he has a very unrealistic attitude and I expect he will be leaving soon. But, in this game, all kinds of surprises abound.

I have picked Chris as the big winner this season. I don't think Zeke has what it takes to outwit Chris. Of course, Zeke may always win. But I'll be very surprised if he does.  Chris is a criminal defense attorney.  I think that means he has to outwit many other very clever people in order to make his living. I don't believe Zeke is anywhere close to being as clever as Chris.

However, to be fair, when it comes to predicting who will win and who will lose, I am almost always wrong. But, that is part of the fun of the Survivor fandom.

Still, I'd be interested to know what you think Zeke's chances are?  Do you agree with some of the other people who figure he will win the million dollars?

Edited November 4, 2016 by AliShibaz

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I was a little surprised that Bret and Sunday did practically no scrambling at all and basically just let themselves be lambs for slaughter. 

Well, they didn't do anything that we saw. Doesn't mean they didn't make an attempt. But really, what could they have done? They were out-numbered 2 to 4. Their best bet would have been for Bret to ask the guys to keep him around instead of Sunday and for Sunday to ask the girls to keep her around instead of Bret. That was probably their best option. (And, for all we know, voting out Michaela might have been their idea.)

Quote

Michaela utterly lacked the wisdom to realize that being consistently so vocal about who she disliked made her a liability for anyone in an alliance with her. I've lived long enough to know plenty of people like her, and suspect Michaela has done the "I'm just an honest person, and if you can't handle that..." line before cruelly eviscerating someone with words. 

I initially found her irritating but grew to enjoy her as entertainment. She made several comments that cracked me up. However, I tend to agree with your assessment, and probably wouldn't want to be friends with her in real life, or have to work with her. She seems like a very abrasive personality. Your description is apt - I've know people like that too. "I'm just keeping it real" - an excuse to tell people off. She lacks tact. She just doesn't see any value in it. Hopefully she's learned a lesson.

Quote

His terrible answers to Hannah's questions were hilarious - "Yeah, people die and then there are funerals and, ya know...we plan the funerals and stuff...."  If you are going to make up a new career for yourself, please take ten seconds before you leave home and google said career.

I believe the reason he gave for choosing "funeral director" as a phony profession was that it's the kind of profession that doesn't invite a lot of questions. Which sounds logical, but I guess he didn't bank on being stuck with someone like Hannah.

[Ms Blue Jay]

13 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Well, they didn't do anything that we saw. Doesn't mean they didn't make an attempt. But really, what could they have done?

Look for an idol I thought.

[ghoulina]

20 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

 

I think Michaela made a huge mistake in her big explanation to her alliance members.  Not only was she explaining basic math, she used shells and rocks to help them visualize what she was saying.  And, she downplayed the selection process of who they should vote out.  All of which, when combined, implies that she thought her alliance members were stupid.  Not only was it insulting, it lent support to the idea that she saw herself in charge and that only her opinion mattered.

 

I agree with this. And I like Michaela. But I saw it as - "Hey guys, you're so lucky, because I've figured it all out for us! Just sit back and let me show you the way". It might have been more productive to have an actual conversation and let different people float different scenarios, instead of just giving the students a lesson. 

 

18 hours ago, PerfidiousAmber said:

I felt so bad for her! I would have totally reamed those uncouth boors out, I wonder if she held back because she didn't want to make any waves in her position?

I think she pretty much said that in her TH - that she was aware being the only girl put a target on her back. Still....I would have politely excused myself to go get water or something. 

[ghoulina]

50 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

It was at the beginning of Episode 6 - about one minute into the show. Zeke was having a confessional and he said words to the effect, 

"Tribal was such a delight because those "silly Gen-Xers" sent home one of their own on the one tribe they had the numbers. Now all of a sudden, I seem to be in a power position with Chris and I'm so stoked. I'm a brand new baby in this game."

Seems to me that a very common happening on this show is when one of the players starts ridiculing players on another tribe or bragging about how great their tribe is playing or talking about what a great position they are in ... that often signals their impending demise.

I don't know, I don't think it seems that bad. He and Michelle were in a very bad position going in, and I would be pretty proud of myself if I avoided that vote. I don't think Zeke has been OVERALL arrogant or boastful, so I'll allow him a little gloating in that moment. I think there are a lot worse insults than "silly", but maybe that's just me. 

[AliShibaz]

8 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I don't know, I don't think it seems that bad. He and Michelle were in a very bad position going in, and I would be pretty proud of myself if I avoided that vote. I don't think Zeke has been OVERALL arrogant or boastful, so I'll allow him a little gloating in that moment. I think there are a lot worse insults than "silly", but maybe that's just me. 

No. I think you are correct. There are indeed a lot worse insults than "silly".

I just wonder why production would show that clip if it wasn't important.  They don't usually show "throw away" clips. Although, in this case, I suppose they may have deliberately thrown in some kind of wild goose to prevent the audience from finding ways to predict what will happen.

I may very well have over-reacted to that clip and I could easily be completely wrong as to its significance.

Like most of the other people who have posted into this thread, I have to agree this has been one of the most exciting and one of the very best seasons of this show I've ever seen. Seems pretty clear the producers of this show keep learning and improving the show as they go along. I still have many complaints about Probst and the way he influences the outcomes of the votes. But overall, I'm very happy that I didn't just give up on this show when I felt it was the right thing to do.

[AliShibaz]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well, they didn't do anything that we saw. Doesn't mean they didn't make an attempt. But really, what could they have done? They were out-numbered 2 to 4. Their best bet would have been for Bret to ask the guys to keep him around instead of Sunday and for Sunday to ask the girls to keep her around instead of Bret. That was probably their best option. (And, for all we know, voting out Michaela might have been their idea.)

I initially found her irritating but grew to enjoy her as entertainment. She made several comments that cracked me up. However, I tend to agree with your assessment, and probably wouldn't want to be friends with her in real life, or have to work with her. She seems like a very abrasive personality. Your description is apt - I've know people like that too. "I'm just keeping it real" - an excuse to tell people off. She lacks tact. She just doesn't see any value in it. Hopefully she's learned a lesson.

I believe the reason he gave for choosing "funeral director" as a phony profession was that it's the kind of profession that doesn't invite a lot of questions. Which sounds logical, but I guess he didn't bank on being stuck with someone like Hannah.

Very well said. I feel you deserved more than just a "like" for this post.  I don't recall ever reading any of your posts before and I enjoyed this one very much.

Edited November 5, 2016 by AliShibaz

[piequinn35]

I was one of the people who would say before, "There's a Jay?" I really don't care about the millenials, and then 2 of them found the HII 

and they voted out Michaela who was a threat and I respected him for that.

Please vote out Hannah, I really don't like her, the panic attack or whatever you call it and I got super annoyed when Michaela was voted out and she was saying "whaaatttt?!" 

[Guest]

Assuming Sunday and Brett have seen Survivor before, I'm pretty sure they searched for idols and also probably approached millennials with the idea of voting off one of their own now, maybe even Michaela.  She'd be the obvious target.  Why weren't we shown it?  Because the story worked great shown just what we were shown.   More schadenfreude if it looked like Michaela dug her own grave with no help from a Gen-Xer or two in scramble mode.  

[NYGirl]

17 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Assuming Sunday and Brett have seen Survivor before, I'm pretty sure they searched for idols and also probably approached millennials with the idea of voting off one of their own now, maybe even Michaela.  She'd be the obvious target.  Why weren't we shown it?  Because the story worked great shown just what we were shown.   More schadenfreude if it looked like Michaela dug her own grave with no help from a Gen-Xer or two in scramble mode.  

Or it could be that the show itself wants to blindside us.  They give us as little info as possible and then boom.

I know I was shocked when she was voted off.  I wonder how many other people were.

[Nedsdag]

I just watched the show. I'm glad I watched the World Series instead.

Whatever, Jay! I can't wait until the reunion show when Michaela gives him the smackdown after he tells her "it's only a game" in his Jeff Schroeder/Big Brother voice. It'll be interesting if Will blindsides Jay by using the HII against him which I think he will do.

Team Ken FTW.

ETA: Michaela should've exposed both Jay and Will regarding the HII they found on her way out the door, but I guess she was too pissed off to think straight.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Nedsdag
Still SMDH over the blindside.

[LadyChatts]

40 minutes ago, Nedsdag said:

I just watched the show. I'm glad I watched the World Series instead.

Whatever, Jay! I can't wait until the reunion show when Michaela gives him the smackdown after he tells her "it's only a game" in his Jeff Schroeder/Big Brother voice. It'll be interesting if Will blindsides Jay by using the HII against him which I think he will do.

Team Ken FTW.

ETA: Michaela should've exposed both Jay and Will regarding the HII they found on her way out the door, but I guess she was too pissed off to think straight.

Michaela addressed why she didn't out Jay-and she said she respected his game play too much to sink that low.  Which I can respect.  Of course, she could just be saying that now, but I believe her.  She seemed too hot headed and bitter at that moment not to blurt out that piece of info. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by LadyChatts

[Knuckles]

Late to this, as I watched the series final, but it was a great, great tribal council. I really like Michaela, and in an actual survival situation, you would be glad to have her on board, but she said it herself in her first talking head...this face will show what I'm thinking. On this Survivor, that's a mistake. A big one.

Upthread, someone mentioned Jeremy...and how he stayed in the shade of Joe and Spencer...he was not seen as a challenge threat until it was too late...though we in the audience were clear on that...many here called him for throwing challenges. Michaela would have done well to watch Jeremy's strategy and game play prior to her arrival on the island. Forget Jobs and Jordan, she should have studied the Jeremy playbook.

And, being a wiseass will cost you. Her "bye, Felicia" was amusing, but expensive for her. Girlfriend is smart, but not shrewd. If Jay and Will think she is crazy smart, that's her mistake.  So is too much leadership...this early, you've identified yourself and people want you gone. A strong physical game, but not a standout one, and a subtle social game will take you a long way.

Hannah is still there. Ponder that, Michaela. Yeah, she's no threat, just a useful vote, but still, Hannah, the useless, is still on the island.  This is how Survivor works.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I liked Michaela a lot but I find analyses like the one @Knuckles just posted very interesting - making me see what things might have 'cost' her with the other players.  Not that I'd personally want her to change who she is, because I like it, but posts like this are interesting without being caustic towards Michaela at all.

Michaela mentioned Steve Jobs and Michael Jordan.  

Japanese proverb: 'The nail that sticks out shall be hammered down'

Edited November 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[LanceM]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

I believe the reason he gave for choosing "funeral director" as a phony profession was that it's the kind of profession that doesn't invite a lot of questions. Which sounds logical, but I guess he didn't bank on being stuck with someone like Hannah.

 Actually in his pre-game interview interviews he mentioned that in addition to being a cop he has also worked in the funeral home industry so he thought it would be easier for him to pull off this lie given that he does have knowledge of that industry.  It appears he may have miscalculated.

[violet and green]

32 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Late to this, as I watched the series final, but it was a great, great tribal council. I really like Michaela, and in an actual survival situation, you would be glad to have her on board, but she said it herself in her first talking head...this face will show what I'm thinking.

Good points.

I also find it problematic that what her face showed she was thinking about her fellow cast a lot of the time was disgust, contempt, ridicule, exasperation, hostility, fury, disdain, etc etc.

I am sure, being a passionate and committed person, as she was/is a lot of other emotions and attitudes showed up, and she was apparently fun around camp (find that hard to believe, but it was said).

But I am surprised people don't remember any of the small scenes that flash before my mind of her rolling her eyes and grimacing with utter disgust and contempt at something someone had just said. Jeff would even point it out. That to me speaks of arrogance and a whole lot more, intolerance of others, anger issues, as displayed, etc.

[AliShibaz]

5 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I was one of the people who would say before, "There's a Jay?" I really don't care about the millenials, and then 2 of them found the HII 

and they voted out Michaela who was a threat and I respected him for that.

Please vote out Hannah, I really don't like her, the panic attack or whatever you call it and I got super annoyed when Michaela was voted out and she was saying "whaaatttt?!" 

It seemed to me that at that TC, Hannah felt compelled to talk and talk and talk about why Michaela was voted out. Much like the way she badgered Zeke and (Sorry. I forget who was with Zeke that night).  I get the feeling that she might have spoken up and wouldn't shut up at that time and the producers had to force her to shut up. Or maybe she was just too afraid to try to badger others while Probst was there?

I get the feeling there could very well have been more of Hannah's badgering and we just weren't shown it.  I find her to be one hundred times more annoying than Michaela ever was.  If she should win this season, I'm guessing they will have to change the show's motto from, "Outwit, Outlast, Outplay" to "OutBadger, OutAnnoy, OutNeurotic".

Edited November 5, 2016 by AliShibaz

[PerfidiousAmber]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

 I was a little surprised that Bret and Sunday did practically no scrambling at all and basically just let themselves be lambs for slaughter. 

Well, they didn't do anything that we saw. Doesn't mean they didn't make an attempt. But really, what could they have done? They were out-numbered 2 to 4. Their best bet would have been for Bret to ask the guys to keep him around instead of Sunday and for Sunday to ask the girls to keep her around instead of Bret. That was probably their best option. (And, for all we know, voting out Michaela might have been their idea.)

Yes, of course there might have been some behind the scenes maneuvering that we didn't see, but I would have thought that the editors would have included something like that. (On the other hand, you never know how they prioritize what they think is worthy of inclusion.) As you mentioned as well, they could have each individually tried to save themselves at the expense of the other one, but it almost seemed as though they were paralyzed into inaction - they were all just too feel-goody and not enough cut-throaty. Very dull viewing. I seriously doubt they came up with the idea to vote out Michaela seeing as how they were not included in the strategy session. Obviously they would have been approached by Jay and jumped on that bandwagon no problem.

[PerfidiousAmber]

20 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

One thing I forgot to say but wanted to was that I found that Adam/Taylor scene hilarious!  Mostly because of the previous Hannah/Zeke scene where Adam kept telling her "he doesn't want to talk right now"; and here's Adam pulling a not-identical but still quite similar act on Taylor. 

HA HA HA that is so right! I'm calling it the "Foghorn Leghorn Syndrome".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYNp03ZW2r0

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, PerfidiousAmber said:

Yes, of course there might have been some behind the scenes maneuvering that we didn't see, but I would have thought that the editors would have included something like that. (On the other hand, you never know how they prioritize what they think is worthy of inclusion.) 

Apparently fucking body functions.  Ugh.  I needed that scene zero percent

[Guest]

While that scene was disgusting, it showed one thing... Michelle is like the anti-Michaela.  She's going to sit back and make a blank face and shut up no matter what's happening around her, apparently.  I think that's shrewd.

[ghoulina]

Michelle is a stealth threat. I've said that from day one. I think people underestimate her.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

Michelle is a stealth threat. I've said that from day one. I think people underestimate her.

Taking my reply to the Michelle thread.

[Alapaki]

As far as Brett and Sunday not scrambling prior to TC, I think there had to be lots of stuff we didnt' see.

I mean, did we ever see any scene to explain why they changed from their battered-spouse plan to vote for each other and instead vote for Micheala?  There had to have been something said to them.