S12.E02: Mamma Mia

[Diane]

Micklady so glad to have you back! Wishing you the best.

[rue721]

Just now, SueB said:

Here's the biggest surprise of the night: the episode was written by Buckner-Lemming and while it had the requsite (for them) gross sexual thing, it was plot consistent and the episode was very good IMO.  

I know! I think this is a direct consequence of the change in showrunners. B/L's script was clearly given a very thorough once over, in a way that scripts never seemed to under Carver. (Thank you Dabb!). And as a result, this episode was legitimately good, imo -- not just good for a B/L episode, but just plain good. And on top of that, for ONCE when it comes to B/L episodes, it seemed like the people who wrote the episode actually watch the goddamned show! The tone, the characterization, the nods to the show's past (without reverting the characters to calcified, early-season versions of themselves)...it was all spot on imo. And if Dabb can make that happen with a B/L episode, then I have high hopes for S12 as a whole, gotta say!

Oh and I forgot. I also liked that Sam brought Mary tea, and then was immediately like, "I don't even know if you like tea, but here's some?" I liked that he brought the tea as an excuse to bring the journal, and brought the journal as an excuse to talk to her. There was just something very charming and sweet about that imo. His confusion and hope were palpable. I also liked that meanwhile, Dean was off by himself, drinking some beer and looking at old photos and thinking. And that it was hard to tell what he was thinking, or predict what conclusions he's going to come to.

Hmm. I thought it was really interesting that when Mary said that John was such a good father, Dean had a reaction, and evidently felt like he should even bring up the subject again later and tell her pretty much outright that the John she remembered had died when she died, that the man she remembered wasn't really the man who had raised them. I wonder why he wanted to bring up that subject again? Personally, I probably wouldn't have said anything. I'm not criticizing his decision to "set her straight" as it were -- tbh I think it's for the best. I'm just wondering where that impulse was coming from.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

asn't really the man who had raised them. I wonder why he wanted to bring up that subject again? Personally, I probably wouldn't have said anything. I'm not criticizing his decision to "set her straight" as it were -- tbh I think it's for the best. I'm just wondering where that impulse was coming from.

I don't think it was that Dean was going to 'set her straight' so much as maybe it pinged his  recent misgivings about how they were raised. Despite loving John, Dean has been starting to see it differently for a while now. Dean doesn't seem to be able to talk to Sam about his issues with John that I can remember other than right after John died and when he was a demon.

Sam told Mary that her being there filled in the biggest blank of his life. Maybe Mary being around is clarifying some stuff for Dean too. Maybe in ways he didn't ever imagine. I think he's having some major cognitive dissonance about ...well, everything.  

[ZennyKenny]

Scene: Dean, Sam, Mom and Castiel are back at the bunker

My wife: "What happened to their cuts?"
Me: "The CW happened. It's time for them to look pretty again."

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Also, wtf was up with Sam getting all aghast and shouting "Dean!" when Dean punched Toni? I mean, Toni had nearly strangled Mary to death with her mind. What was Dean supposed to do? And why would Sam be all shocked? It was weird.

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Sam thought that by Dean knocking her out, her spell on Mary would continue.  Dean knew that if she were unconscious, it would stop working, since he'd read up on that particular spell before.  Again we learn that Dean reads!  Yay!!

I agree with MysteryGuest that Sam was freaked about the spell continuing, especially since if I interpreted the scene correctly (I sometimes have a hard time understanding what Lady I'mSoVeryBritishEvil is saying exactly), Lady MindScrew seemed to be implying that if Dean shot her that something bad would happen to Mary - I'm assuming she was trying to make Dean believe that Mary would die as well if Dean shot her. But since Dean knew what the spell was, he knew better. But I don't think Sam was familiar with the spell, and thought Dean harming Lady KeepYourHallucinationMittsOffSam would also hurt Mary.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's been a huge plothole all along. He got his grace back and they showed him with burnt wings but it makes no sense because Cas was already on earth so his wings should have never burned since he didn't actually fall like the other angels.

My head!canon is that Cas losing his grace messed with his wings and now that he has his grace back eventually his wings will heal and he can fly again. 

If I'm remembering correctly, Castiel was actually in heaven when Metatron took his grace for the spell - since that's where Metatron was when he cast the spell. I think Cas still had his wings despite not having his grace after Metatron did the spell, so when Cas fell with the rest of the angels, he too lost his wings. The only angels - that we know of anyway, because there might've been a few on earth - who still had their wings after the fall were Lucifer, Michael, and Metatron.

And a big Kermit the Frog waving Yaaaaaaay! to Mick Lady being back. We've missed you. Now we also need OmegaMom to come back. I miss her, too.

Edited October 21, 2016 by AwesomO4000
Because Mick Lady deserved a yay!

[ZennyKenny]

Post episode thoughts:

THANK YOU writers for not dragging the "find Sam" arc out to three episodes! I found this episode very satisfying because it felt more dense and had better closure.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well Rick Springfield played Lucifer. I honestly couldn't picture it. And I like that he's not actually "Rick", but a fictional character in a fictional band.

SFX for Lucifer's Skeletor face rocked!

Loving the dynamic between Mary & dean and Mary & Sam. Each has its own unique feel, appropriate to each character's connection. It just feels like the crew took a lot of time to really consider how to approach things.

I hate that you just know that they're going to bring back Lady McNoRedemptionArc so that we can learn all about why she's so pissed off at the Winchesters, and what that has to do with Ruby and Benny, and I. Just. Don't. Care. Check that: I would care if she remained an enemy and Dean & Sam killed her in the most glorious of ways, but I have this sinking feeling that the writers are going to force her to be a sympathetic character, and I'm just not having it.

Can we NOT, with Roweena? Please? Can we just NOT? I rather enjoy her character, and I appreciate that she's trying to escape the life but keeps getting sucked back in, but... I REALLY don't want to see her in chains and at Lucifer's feet.

Edited October 21, 2016 by ZennyKenny

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If I'm remembering correctly, Castiel was actually in heaven when Metatron took his grace for the spell - since that's where Metatron was when he cast the spell. I think Cas still had his wings despite not having his grace after Metatron did the spell, so when Cas fell with the rest of the angels, he too lost his wings. The only angels - that we know of anyway, because there might've been a few on earth - who still had their wings after the fall were Lucifer, Michael, and Metatron.

Metatron took his grace, healed his slit throat and sent him back to Earth as a human before the  angels fell. Cas was running through the woods and looked up to watch them all fall. Cas' wings would have never burned since he did not fall. .

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Metatron took his grace, healed his slit throat and sent him back to Earth as a human before the  angels fell. Cas was running through the woods and looked up to watch them all fall. Cas' wings would have never burned since he did not fall. .

Ah, okay. I forgot that Metatron sent Castiel back to earth. I don't tend to revisit season 8 much if I can help it.

Maybe when Metatron sent Castiel back to earth, the effect on his wings was the same? Otherwise, yeah, I got nothing.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, okay. I forgot that Metatron sent Castiel back to earth. I don't tend to revisit season 8 much if I can help it.

Maybe when Metatron sent Castiel back to earth, the effect on his wings was the same? Otherwise, yeah, I got nothing

Metatron said he was making Cas human so he could have babies blah blah blah which I figured meant we'd find out he literally lost his wings, as in they went away when Metatron stole his grace, which would have been the easiest answer but NOPE. 

I have a brand new head!canon that Metatron forcible grace removal makes the wings molt, so whatever we saw in s10 weren't burned but molted, and now are in the process of growing back. It's the only way I can work it out. LOL. So maybe they'll be all repaired in time for the mid-season finale (not a spoiler) when he'll need to rescue The Winchesters via emergency teleport or something. I dunno. 

Now I have this in my head:

Take ...these broken wings
And learn to fly again
And learn to live so free
And when we hear the voices sing
The book of love will open up
And let us in

Honestly, if they don't use this song for Cas at some point...what's it all for?

[DittyDotDot]

Yay me for staying up to watch it!!! And here I thought Thursdays would be better, but damn am I tired after a long week... .

Anyhoo, not as strong as last week, but for a Horrible Duo episode, it's downright freakin' fantastic! Sure it was still over-packed and the contrivances were many, but the characterizations were good and I laughed, smiled, was surprised here and there and, at the end, I almost choked up...what more can you ask for? 

Plus, I really didn't feel like there was anything that didn't make a certain amount of sense within the universe, even if it was a little too easy at times. For instance, it's pretty good that Lady Toni had the foresight to put that sigil exactly where Dean Winchester would need to stand, but hey, I've always thought that about the holy oil traps too, so... . And certainly not sure why Lucifer's eyes are suddenly glowing red, but I never really got behind Crowley having red smoke either, so whatever. I'm really getting worried about myself here, people. ;)

Love what they're doing with Mary so far. I had a mighty laugh at the conversation in the car when Mary joked that Dean had to do what she said because she was his mother. HA! Take that older brother whose always right! ;)

And, Rowena and Crowley were dastardly delightful together. Lucifer storyline a weak spot, but I figured it would be so it's easier to just go with it. And, quite frankly the MoL stuff is pretty boring too, but again, I was never all that interested in the concept to begin with. I'm rarely drawn into the big mythology stuff anyway, so now that we're past the first couple, I'm hoping they leave the big season arcs behind and have a bit of fun for a couple episodes.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They also brought up Ruby for Sam.   How would they know about her?

Probably read Chuck's books.

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Sam broke my heart. When he gave Mary some tea and the journal and started crying? Wow. And did she seriously not hug him? I actually don't remember, because I was so focused on feeling sad for him, but dude. I hope she did, because who wouldn't?

Both Sam and Dean broke my heart here. Sam is so happy and hopeful Mary is back and, even though Dean is happy too, I think he's afraid to trust it. Like he doesn't want to get too attached to the idea she's back and everything is really good, for fear it will get ripped away from him again. Nicely done character beats for both Sam and Dean in this one.

Thought it was very cute Dean was trying to talk with Cass about Mary, too. Dude really could use a few more friends in his life...you just never know when you'll need someone to talk to about your mother coming back from the dead after 30 years, and your brother is kidnapped by a crazy British chick so he's unavailable, but you probably wouldn't talk to him about this anyway because you're the older brother and a father figure and you don't bring your fears to the table with your kids, but you really need to talk with someone and figure out if this is really a good thing or not, but the angel on your shoulder just doesn't get it...man, it sucks to be Dean Winchester sometimes. ;)

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Holy crap i don't think i ever put that together.  I just assumed Castiel couldn't teleport a couple seasons back because he lost his grace/working on borrowed grace etc.  

Last season I remembered him zapping Dean back in time aboard the submarine. Guess that's because it was Lucifer?  

Yes, it was Lucifer who zapped Dean back in time. No other angel would have the mojo to pull that off anymore.

4 hours ago, Binns said:

Oh! The bringing up Ruby and Benny- my interpretation of that was that she was showing them how long they had been watching Sam & Dean and their shenanigans and how much they know. She alluded to that in the season finale. 

That was my take too. She was trying to establish she was all-knowing, but I think it also highlighted she didn't really know more than surface stuff the average hunter might know. Otherwise why would they want to know more if they already know it all? Also, in Sam's halucination ::shivers just thinking about that:: Lady Toni mentioned that some of their soldiers have been compromised. I'm guessing a friend of Martin's with some bittercakes toward the Winchesters maybe sold them out to the British MoL, so they may not have very accurate intel here.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Metatron said he was making Cas human so he could have babies blah blah blah which I figured meant we'd find out he literally lost his wings, as in they went away when Metatron stole his grace, which would have been the easiest answer but NOPE. 

Not-so-marvy-Marv sent Cass back to earth, but that doesn't mean his wings weren't destroyed in the process. Whether we saw it or not, I believe it's been stated Cass--and the other angels, too--no longer have wings and that's why they can't fly, er...um...teleport.

Edited October 21, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Jediknight]

5 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Can we NOT, with Roweena? Please? Can we just NOT? I rather enjoy her character, and I appreciate that she's trying to escape the life but keeps getting sucked back in, but... I REALLY don't want to see her in chains and at Lucifer's feet.

She needs to finally form the Mega Coven, and take that road trip that she wanted to with Sam and Dean, and let them know what her perfect song was for the trip.

[Demented Daisy]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 Anyhoo, *snip*

Well, I don't need to say anything, because she already did.  ;-)

Oh, one thing.  Mary kicking ass!  Yay!

[mertensia]

My big question is: what does BritGuy mean by "compromised?" I mean, hunters are pretty solitary. There's no MoL to betray. No sophisticated network to hack. Plus, NO Brit has been over to determine what structure the hunters use (I.e. pretty much none)?

I liked the episode immensely, but shouldn't BritLady have known Dean spent 30 years in Hell and knows just as much about pain as Sam?

Poor Dean. He's much more discombobulated than Sam and Mary over this. 

[DittyDotDot]

My big question is: what does BritGuy mean by "compromised?" I mean, hunters are pretty solitary. There's no MoL to betray. No sophisticated network to hack. Plus, NO Brit has been over to determine what structure the hunters use (I.e. pretty much none)?

It seems the BMoL are planning to make a move into the US and if the British hunters really work the way Lady Tony said, they would probably consider all these random hunters acting on their own without any hierarchy or clear rules of conduct, compromised.

It also sounds like Lady Toni wasn't actually sent to "bring in" Sam and Dean, but was sent to simply make contacts. It seems to me, Lady Toni has made up her mind about Sam and Dean for some personal reason--perhaps someone she loved is dead and she thinks Sam and Dean are responsible; that seems to be the show's go to raison d'etre--and she decided to take the opportunity to deal out some personal payback in the process. 

[bethy]

OK, because I'm a weirdo and don't like change, I've got to admit that I'm a little discombobulated myself by the addition of Mary. I don't dislike her or her interaction with the boys, but it adds a dynamic I'm not used to.  I know I'll adjust, but for the moment I'm wary. I also need to rewatch, for sure.

The expression on Mary's face when Dean said something about realizing that it was just the two of them - him and Sam - was interesting to me. I'm not sure what it was, but it didn't seem like sadness or regret. It was more like the expression on Dean's face when Mary said that about John being a good father. I have no idea. It just struck me for some reason.

I was not and am not a big fan of Crowley/Rowena/Lucifer storylines. Especially since, for me, it meant we cut away from Dean and Mary looking for Sam.

I do hope they manage to keep Lady MindRapist a true bad guy. What she did to Sam mentally and physically was horrible, but the fact that she seems to have done it on her own without any sort of orders from the BMoL seems like she's really not a good person. But as has already been noted, there will be something - like she's trying to save her kid and/or she was wronged by hunters or whatever - that gives her a pass. And given how much she seems to know about the Winchesters how does she not know more about how hunting works in the US?

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

I liked the episode immensely, but shouldn't BritLady have known Dean spent 30 years in Hell and knows just as much about pain as Sam?

Considering she apparently didn't know that Sam had been tortured in Hell "by Lucifer himself" and therefore would not be breaking anytime soon, I'm guessing not. She was complaining about both boys befriending (or more) the things they were supposed to be eliminating (i.e. vampires and demons), but she didn't seem to realize that they'd both dealt way bigger issues than being buddy buddy with the bad guys. Her issues are so low on the totem pole for them.

 

As an aside, I had to pause and rewind the scene with Mary talking about John being such a good father -- because I have the shirt she was wearing! I got it recently, but Hello New Favorite Shirt!

[ae2]

While I'm mostly enjoying the season and have been surprised at how much I like having Mary around... the cast has outgrown the show.

Lucifer and Crowley are fun characters, but in the S&D show there is simply not enough time to give them compelling stories every season. Rowena was 3 years past her expiration date when we first met her.

Castiel is the only exception I'll allow, because he's the Winchester family puppy. (And occasional guard dog, although lately he's more bark than bite.)

[Aeryn13]

Not bad actually.

While I didn`t appreciate per se that Dean was caught - like there was ever any chance that this was part of a plan, not with these writers - they managed to do it in a way that didn`t make him as terribly incompetent as last week. And he did get a very nice smart moment after that. He is up there with Oliver cutting the bad guy`s tendons over on Arrow for me this week. Yay, for quick thinking by badasses. 

I also appreciated that Mary, while kick-ass, was not shown to be the uber-saviour. 

As for Lucifer, I liked Rick Springfield and the plot itself can be an amusing diversion but they spent WAY too much screentime on it for my taste. 

Didn`t like the gross eating. Even if it was Jensen, the buck stops with the director here. Do your job and stop that. At least shoot more version than this one and then simply edit in the one that doesn`t have this. It`s not rocket science.

Lady Deadeyes is just a disaster to me. Just like TVD`s Valerie was. Being a bad guy is not the problem, being smug is not the problem, being fanatic in your beliefs, even that is not the problem but having no charisma whatsoever? That IS a problem for me.

The guy they brought in at the end, hm, would have to say him in one more ep to form a definitve opinion on him. But overall, those BritMOL just do nothing for me. If they really know so much that they know small, intricate details, them not getting the big picture is silly to me. And them not understanding how American hunters work is even sillier. It`s like they completely apply their own system to them and then wonder why that yields them no results in info-gathering. Yeesh, that is like me living in a Western country and therefore not even have a technical understanding that living in another culture is quite different. That just bugs me. It has nothing to do with a superior attitude, it`s simple logic. They KNOW the US system isn`t like theirs, the MOL are gone and the hunters aren`t organized into a hierachical army. 

The sex scenes was just like the torture porn, gratuitously weird. Whatever.

But, all in all the nep duo continues their "winning streak" from last Season. Must be an alternate universe.

[Wynne88]

Quote

I think Cas has all of his powers except his ability to teleport.  And we've seen him fix the boys' bumps and bruises so many times they probably felt it wasn't necessary to actually show him doing it again.  

Yes, but Mary hasn't.  They take the time to show her being surprised by computers and their capabilities.  I would think that an angel's ability to basically give them a 'get out of jail' free card from any injury would be worthy of at least a lifted eyebrow.  

I really liked Sam's expression when Dean was pushed down the stairs.  At first he is gobsmacked by Dean's appearance, but right before they cut to a commercial break, he looked like he thought he was going nuts.  Which when you consider the hallucinations he was having shortly before that, and his history of seeing things that aren't there, I'd have to think he was at least considering the possibility that Dean was also a hallucination.  It was just a beat, and I'm glad they didn't hammer on it, but it was a nice touch.

[Bessie]

I adored Crowley's line about how he was surprised that if lucifer wanted to inhabit a second-tier rock star he expected him to go with someone like Bieber. Lucifer was such a silly, sulky teenager last season, that was a great line. Rick Springfield is bringing the menace back, so props to him for that.

But, if I were tech-savvy, I'd buy the episode and edit the A and B plots in such a way as to be able to watch them separately. The plots would break away from one to the other at the most inopportune moments, that I became irritated while I was watching. Not that I'm interested in lucifer, but still.

To my mind this was the payoff episode to last years's mytharc and I'm a character-driven viewer, so this was something of a letdown. Lucifer could have waited until next week. Sam was tortured physically and psychologically, yet two minutes after being rescued he's fine. There's no initial scene with him and his dead mother. Castiel and Sam don't even exchange a word. Dean and Sam have apparently become so inured to one another's torture/dying that the writers just skip right over it to present us with a scene of Dean shoving food in his face, because that's important.

I did enjoy the character beats we got. I found it intriguing that Dean and Mary talked about the deal she made, but it still has never been discussed in Sam's presence. I thought Smith did an excellent job with her lines involving Dean trying to protect her. She was very gentle with him, while not losing her own agency. And I liked that Dean was gentle with her about John, while not completely sugarcoating his own issues with his childhood.

[goldy]

I liked this episode, it was good, not as good as last week but still good. The bad parts were the Lucifer/Crowley/Rowena storyline, that was just boring to me and I felt the episode spend WAY too much time on it. The good stuff though, was pretty much every Sam/Dean/Mary scene. Cas was cool too, but he didn't get much screen time, which is too bad, Cas is not my favorite character but I would still love to see more of him than Crowley and Rowena. 

Sam has gotten so HOT this year, that love scene, he was SMOKING! and of course poor tortured Sam is always hot. lol.

I love the awkwardness between Dean and Mary, it felt real. They're strangers to each other but they still care about each other so much, Dean being over protected with her was really cute, but I'm still glad that she stood her ground and did what she wanted to do. I love their talk in the car on the way to save Sam and the earlier talk in the bunker. That face Dean made when she said John was a good father, I felt so sad for Dean in that scene.

So, Mary really hate the fact that Sam and Dean are hunters. I guess that's no surprise given how she left the life and never wanted to come back. But I wonder how this will affect Sam and Dean. Will Dean feel like he's a disappointment to his mother? Will Sam be having second thoughts about being a hunter again?

I'm a little disappointed by the way Sam and Dean first meet in this episode. I was really hoping for a hug or at least a good talk, but they barely had any scenes together and everything felt rushed, probably because the writers needed this episode to focused on the [boring] Lucifer storyline too. 

I don't get how Sam didn't question himself when he saw Dean and his mom. Earlier in the episode Toni used witchcraft to make him see things that are not real. Didn't he even suspect that she's making him hallucinate again?

I had to laugh at the boys faces when Toni went down the stairs to torture them again. They looked so misrable lol!

Loved how badass Mary was when she was beating the crap out of Toni but I'm glad that is was Dean that "saved the day" at the end.

The dinner scene with Mary and the boys was really sweet. I loved how quiet and reserved Sam was in Mary's presence. I loved that Dean finally got some pie and that Mary remembered that he loves pie.

The scene with Sam and Mary at the end of the episode was the best part of the episode for me. The way she looked at him when he told her "For me, just having you here fill in the biggest blank" was precious! And that hug, I loved that hug so much!!! Those kind of scenes are really the reason I watch this show.

I also loved the scene of Dean looking at his and his mother old pictures. I wonder if he went to "hide" in the kitchen so that she won't see how much he drinks. 

I'm so loving this season so far!  

[bethy]

I also wondered if Sam would think he was hallucinating again when he saw Dean. I wish they'd done a little more with that. And yes, it would have been so great to see more of Dean and Sam being reunited and Mary reacting to Cas healing everyone up. The Lucifer stuff is boring to me and reduces the amount of time the show spends on what does interest me - Winchesters. 

[DittyDotDot]

OMG, totally forgot to mention, the show is looking so good this year! Not just the desaturation of the color, but the framing and blocking is really working for me in ways it hasn't in some number of years. That shot of Dean unlocking Sam with Mary in the background was really nice and totally had me thinking of how Kim Manners used to stack people deep in the frame like that. It works on so many levels for this photographer.

Overall, it really feels like the writing and the production are working more in concert right now rather than each doing their parts separately then being mashed together. It's making me ridiculously happy, and that scares me. Just like Dean, it makes me uneasy when I suddenly get what I want. ;)

[Primetimer]

Does Lady Toni freak when she gets blood spatter on her pants, or does she have a magic dry cleaner?

View the full article

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, goldy said:

I'm a little disappointed by the way Sam and Dean first meet in this episode.

I'm really surprised they didn't play up the idea that Sam would think he was just hallucinating when she dragged Dean down the stairs.  He recovered from that idea a little too quickly, I thought.  I know that both Sam and Dean have come back from the dead so many time that it's practically routine, but still, I thought we'd at least get a few lines about that.

As much as I enjoy Crowley, I'm sad to say that I don't really see a role for him anymore.  At least not without bringing back the angel/demon battle, and that's been played out, IMO.  The never-ending hunt for Lucifer is the only option for them, and I honestly resent when he's on the screen.  I'm just not interested.  I know that Jensen and Jared can't be in every scene, but for me, it's a big let down when they're not.  Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if the other storylines were more compelling, but they haven't succeeded at that yet.

I think Castiel is a bit different, in that he opens up story possibilities Sam and Dean wouldn't have without him...time travel, instant healing, bringing people back from the dead, etc.  But he does seem to be without a purpose, at least so far this season.  I know he's going to get on board with the Lucifer hunt, but I need more than that.

The BMOL definitely seem to have underestimated the American hunters.  We knew they would, because ultimately Sam and Dean need to prevail.  As annoying as LadyCan'tWaitTillSheGoesAway is, I have no doubt that she will become someone they end up protecting as the season goes on.  Her child makes her someone they can't just kill.  If they were going to do that, they'd never have introduced her son to the audience.  

Edited October 21, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

I do hope they manage to keep Lady MindRapist a true bad guy. What she did to Sam mentally and physically was horrible, but the fact that she seems to have done it on her own without any sort of orders from the BMoL seems like she's really not a good person. But as has already been noted, there will be something - like she's trying to save her kid and/or she was wronged by hunters or whatever - that gives her a pass. And given how much she seems to know about the Winchesters how does she not know more about how hunting works in the US?

She could be manipulated by something that's threatening her son.  The BMOL think she's just off reservation, but really there's more to it.  She did not look happy when she got the news that the one guy was called in at the end.

[trxr4kids]

Why was there a picture of Bobby in a wheelchair with a group of what looked like hunters in John's journal? I think it was the photo Dean found in The End in Bobbys mantle which shouldn't exsist.

ETA: I get that Sam and Dean have probably put photos in there but that photo was focused on specifically not say a photo of the boys and John or something else, it just seems odd.

Edited October 21, 2016 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Why was there a picture of Bobby in a wheelchair with a group of what looked like hunters in John's journal? I think it was the photo Dean found in The End in Bobbys mantle which shouldn't exsist.

Yeah, that stuck out to me, as well. Very weird, indeed. 

[The Real Chon]

I can't shake the whole Buffy/Watcher's Council/Glory vibe here, and I keep seeing in my head Buffy's soliloquy about "dealing themselves back in to make themselves relevant."

Next up: Rowena becomes a magic junkie.

Not a fan of the Springfield stuntcasting. Mark Pellegrino is so much more saucy.

[catrox14]

Upon rewatch, I did enjoy Rick Springfield more than I expected, and I LOVE all the Dean/Mary/Cas stuff but overall I think this episode was not good. Characterization sacrificed for plot and plot that makes no sense if you think about it for 5 freaking minutes. 

Lucifer -- Glowing flashing red eyes was a cool VFX in the cage for a hot minute but continually using it is is cartoonish and makes Lucifer much less interesting and too comic book showy for SPN. Don't get me wrong, I love comic books shows and those needs are met with ALL the DC and Marvel shows out there not but I prefer it not infiltrate Supernatural. 

Crowley's smoking eyes worked because it showed Crowley getting his moxie back and doing the same with Lucifer's eyes in the first scene when he goes into Rick Springfield was fine but using it every time he got angry was overkill.  I think the viewers are smart enough to suss that LUCIFER EVIL...LUCIFER BAD. IT IS KNOWN, KHALEESI. He's not the Incredible Hulk. Thanks

Lucifer's 'oooh ouch' at the suggestion of holy water is just stupid. Holy water is for demons. It doesn't affect angels at all much less Lucifer who is an ARCHANGEL FFS!  Why would Lucifer even THINK about it being  Holy Water much less mildly concerned? Stupid.  Crowley using sulphuric acid and a paralyzing spell in lieu of angel warding and a holy oil ring of fire to contain Lucifer? Stupid. Or actually both?  Crowley is not stupid. Sigh.

Rowena -- So much wrong with what they are doing to Rowena.  She's been reduced to a woman desperately seeking a man to survive. Not cool for many many reasons.that I'll leave for another time. 

The mildly annoying:

Lady Hubris - To Dean: "Do you know it's possible to die from pain"? Um, YEAH he does. He was ripped apart by hellhounds and his soul spent 40 years in Hell literally being ripped apart in ways that couldn't be imagined and was rebuilt just to go through it all over again every day for 30 years and doing it to other souls for 10 years. HE KNOWS.

So either she knows the boys have both been in Hell and her hubris is extraordinary that she thinks she'll beat them OR she doesn't which means her hubris  will come back to bite her in the ass. Not sure which way that will go.  But as an aside her anger is too personal. There is something else that makes her want to torture the both of them when that was clearly not her job.  I dread to think what the connection is.

Sidebar: Kudos to Jensen in that scene because I thought when she had the needle at his eye, that he played it as though he was remembering his Hell time because his fear..looked different. Not unlike when Dean hesitated before descending the staircase to back to Hell in The Devil in the Details. It's nice that he remembers what Dean's gone through if the writers can't be bothered to put it in the fucking script.

[Jediknight]

43 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

ETA: I get that Sam and Dean have probably put photos in there but that photo was focused on specifically not say a photo of the boys and John or something else, it just seems odd.

Barry Allen's time traveling adventures have had an impact on all CW shows.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Barry Allen's time traveling adventures have had an impact on all CW shows.

I bet if Cas checked on Claire, he`d find that she has magically turned into a boy. 

[SueB]

It IS an odd mistake for props to make.  But the world is not half-destroyed with Croatoan virus so that photo is not possible because they never got to that timeline.  Even with Mary's arrival.  So, either they ARE in a different timeline and somehow that's a similar photo OR props made a mistake.  IDK.  It was right after a photo of John in the military so maybe that was their cheat-way of pretending it was just another old photo.  I'll wait for more indications of alt-timeline before I get too nuts on this one.  I recall the mistake with John's dog tags resulting in hundreds of posts about Dean not being John's son.

[Demented Daisy]

For the record, Dean's messy eating doesn't bother me.  I think it's rather adorable.  I like the occasional beat of lightness, especially when they're being a couple of morose... uh, I won't use the word that Holden McNeil used.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Demented Daisy said:

For the record, Dean's messy eating doesn't bother me.  I think it's rather adorable.  I like the occasional beat of lightness, especially when they're being a couple of morose... uh, I won't use the word that Holden McNeil used.  ;-)

I just thought it was nice Dean FINALLY gets some pie, and gets to eat and enjoy it! ;)

[Bessie]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The sex scenes was just like the torture porn, gratuitously weird. Whatever.

They weren't sex scenes.  They were rape scenes. Sam was being psychologically and emotionally raped. And because these writers are so ridiculous, viewers can see that and shrug it off. That's how atrocious they are. If they can't even be bothered to follow up on rape, then don't write it. As far as I can tell, it was all about establishing Lady Toni's character and the impact of it on the lead character was not important to B/L. It was so utterly unnecessary. The physical torture was enough. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Bessie

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I bet if Cas checked on Claire, he`d find that she has magically turned into a boy. 

LOLOL. well played (also, GRRRRR )

[Wynne88]

Good point, Bessie.  I guess they figured that since it didn't really happen, it didn't really count.

I've always appreciated the fact that the show hasn't often found excuses to show Sam and Dean shirtless (or altogether unclothed), and I think that Jared or Jensen once made a comment acknowledging that.  To my mind, it shows a respect for the characters and actors, not to just turn them into eye candy.  I hope this was a one-off, and that that doesn't change.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

They weren't sex scenes.  They were rape scenes. 

I know they weren`t actually sex scenes but it was just so random and pointless - Lady Deadeyes couldn`t even be sexy in her literal mindfuck fantasy, she was as cold and blank as during any other torture part - that I felt they only wanted to get in a scene with the actors naked and rolling around in bed. Since such a scene couldn`t come about naturally between the characters in this episode, they did this. But in the end, I felt it was not much different than Ruby being stripped down naked and "sexily restrained" for her torture scene. They don`t usually strip men for torture scenes (and have been called on it) so maybe that was their "compromise"?

Eh, I`ll take an actual sex scene for Dean for 200, please.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bessie said:

They weren't sex scenes.  They were rape scenes. Sam was being psychologically and emotionally raped. And because these writers are so ridiculous, viewers can see that and shrug it off. That's how atrocious they are. If they can't even be bothered to follow up on rape, then don't write it. As far as I can tell, it was all about establishing Lady Toni's character and the impact of it on the lead character was not important to B/L. It was so utterly unnecessary. The physical torture was enoug

Throughout the show Sam and Dean have been subjected to sexualized violence at the hands of monsters and villains of all manner.  I'm 100% sure that both Dean and Sam were subjected to sexual assault in Hell as well. Cas was raped by the reaper in s9 and it was like 'Cas lost his virginity, YAY'.  The show never revisits the real trauma.  It's a can of worms they play around with but never treat seriously after the fact. And they REALLY REALLY REALLY need to stop. 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe they finally decided to address the trauma via Sam given he is the main character. I mean they did go pretty far with it this time and made it clear it was enhanced torture and it was against his will, so I dunno, I could see them maybe finally addressing it. Hard to say. I won't be surprised at either direction.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas was raped by the reaper in s9

I'm sorry, I don't think what that reaper did to Cass was rape. Cass consented to the sex, just because she didn't tell him she was a reaper does not make it rape, IMO.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I really liked Sam's expression when Dean was pushed down the stairs.  At first he is gobsmacked by Dean's appearance, but right before they cut to a commercial break, he looked like he thought he was going nuts.  Which when you consider the hallucinations he was having shortly before that, and his history of seeing things that aren't there, I'd have to think he was at least considering the possibility that Dean was also a hallucination.  It was just a beat, and I'm glad they didn't hammer on it, but it was a nice touch.

I wish they would have spent more time on the idea that Sam was hallucinating Dean. Have a line of dialogue where Sam is shaking his head saying "No. This isn't real. Dean is dead. How are you doing this?". Then Dean is like "No, Sam, I swear I'm alive. I can prove it!" and he gets Lady McStupidFace to bring a knife to him so he can slice his wrist to show his blood( but then he grabs the knife and stabs her. The End). 

I would have gave FAR preferred that over Rowena trying to hook a millionaire dude or watching the rerun of s5 Sam with Rick Springfield being seduced by Jessica 2.0.  Lame.

[rue721]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Probably read Chuck's books.

I don't think that M'Lady has even done that, because if she'd read the books, she'd know that there's no network of hunters, and she would DEFINITELY know who "recruited" Sam and how. Watch the damn pilot, lady.

AND it still makes NO SENSE that she's asking these kinds of questions after ostensibly having the Winchesters under surveillance. If she doesn't even know their associates or whether they work alone, what was the BMOL even "surveilling"?

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It also sounds like Lady Toni wasn't actually sent to "bring in" Sam and Dean, but was sent to simply make contacts. It seems to me, Lady Toni has made up her mind about Sam and Dean for some personal reason--perhaps someone she loved is dead and she thinks Sam and Dean are responsible; that seems to be the show's go to raison d'etre--and she decided to take the opportunity to deal out some personal payback in the process. 

The thing is that she crossed the line when she did that "mindfuck." Not that shooting, kidnapping, drugging, torturing, and burning someone isn't terrible (or even arguably worse) than what she did when she tried to rape information out of him. But imo the "mindfuck" was different somehow -- fundamentally illegitimate in a way even the other kinds of torture (!) weren't.

Or maybe it just bothers me personally. YMMV. I feel the same way about Toni now as I do about Lucifer. There's just no justification that the show can give that can make me OK with one character raping another into submission. Disgusting.

I don't care what extenuating circumstances they try to roll out for her, imo she doesn't get a pass anymore.

And I don't care that she MIGHT have a son (we know nothing about that kid's actual identity), because maybe the truth is that she shouldn't be raising him anyway!

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just like Dean, it makes me uneasy when I suddenly get what I want. ;)

This made me laugh. I guess my personality is even more like Sam's than I had thought -- I'm like, who cares what happens later, I want it NOW and I've got it NOW! ;)

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sorry, I don't think what that reaper did to Cass was rape. Cass consented to the sex, just because she didn't tell him she was a reaper does not make it rape, IMO.

Cas consented to sex with whom he believed was a human, not the reaper controlling the vessel. Cas couldn't have consented to the reaper because he didn't know it was a reaper. Hence why I say it's rape.

Edited October 21, 2016 by catrox14

[GirlyGeek]

Loved this episode and so surprising since it was B/L for writers.  I'm trying not to get too excited for this season, but its coming up all good so far.

Yes, I could have used a little more 'reunion time' between the boys and between Sam and Mary.  And a little less Lucifer time.  But overall it was great and I'm interested in the Season.

Loved the ending.  Jared played it perfectly and managed to make Sam look so little somehow (LOL, cause he's a freakin giant compared to Mary).  Broke my heart watching Sam talk to Mary- he was looking at her like she was going to explode or poof out of existence.  

And Dean.  Doesn't know how to act, what to do, what to say,  but is trying anyway.  The way he deals with Mary is sweet to watch.  He's softer, reverent... IDK its hard to put into words, but Jensen is playing it so well.  And the end scene, with him looking at old photos and drinking on the floor of the kitchen was well done.  Mary's back, just down the hall, but Dean's looking at old photos instead.  The reality of her there is not easy for him to get a grip on, and its different, I'm sure, from all the times he's wished or hoped she'd be there.  And he's keeping a bit of distance, because he knows the Winchesters don't get a break, they don't get to keep good things, and they lose the ones they love.  And I don't know if Dean could lose his mom again.

The old photo (from the alternate universe) is odd, and seems way too obvious for the prop team to get wrong.  Could Dean have kept the photo when in the alternate universe and brought it back with him?  Would the photo still exist (head-hurty, timeline wonkiness).

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, GirlyGeek said:

ould Dean have kept the photo when in the alternate universe and brought it back with him?  Would the photo still exist (head-hurty, timeline wonkiness).

Dean didn't bring anything back from the alternate universe. So I think either it's a big continuity fail, which not good show. OR maybe, I kind of hope, that it's a clue that when Amara brought Mary back to life it changed things slightly.

Or as others have said. It's Barry Allen's fault and the Winchesters need to hunt him.

[Proteus]

I must have missed it. When did Ruby get brought up?

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I must have missed it. When did Ruby get brought up?

While Lady Toni was interrogating Sam she asked him to tell her about Ruby. I don't remember the exact dialogue, but it was sometime after Sam broke out of the hallucination spell. 

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

AND it still makes NO SENSE that she's asking these kinds of questions after ostensibly having the Winchesters under surveillance. If she doesn't even know their associates or whether they work alone, what was the BMOL even "surveilling"?

Based on the questions Lady Toni was asking, I think she's been studying them from afar and got most of her information from hearsay, so it's not complete nor is it all that accurate. She's like a historian, piecing together their lives from a bunch of little things left behind and then filling in the gaps with her own supposition. You can study a person all you want, but that doesn't mean you actually know them or that everything you've studied is accurate. 

I actually think this is going to be a big theme of the season. It appears what Sam and Dean know about Mary isn't all that accurate either despite them being told stories of her since they were kids.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think this is going to be a big theme of the season. It appears what Sam and Dean know about Mary isn't all that accurate either despite them being told stories of her since they were kids.

I agree, since Mary's "I don't cook" seemed to be a big surprise to Dean. I think Sam and Dean are going to find out other things they thought they knew aren't actually the reality.

[Proteus]

Thanks again DittyDotDot. I misheard the name when watching the first time.