S03.E09: NIM / S03.E10: NeXT

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Donna envisions a new future for the Internet and attempts to bring everyone together at Comdex. Meanwhile, Gordon takes on a strong-willed Joanie.

Quote

In the third-season finale, Donna's vision creates a spirited discussion about the next big thing and how to achieve it, but the end result may not make everyone happy.

[qtpye]

I really hope this show gets renewed after this finale.  I think it would be awesome now that they humanized Joe.

[Primetimer]

Halt And Catch Fire ends its third season -- but, inexplicably, not its series run -- with the true centerpiece of the show left on the outside looking in.

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[minamurray78]

Well hell. Four years of boring clothes and braided hair didn't take away one bit of Cameron's resentment towards Donna. I was getting kinda bored during the first hour, what with everyone getting along, and the Clark's divorce and Joe/Cam hook up we figure was on the horizon, but I did not expect both ladies outmaneuvering each other like that. Donna can be pretty vengeful when she wants too.

Ryan who?

[mjc570]

I really liked how they reset the characters, in a way, everyone morphed into what some of us had hoped for (Cameron growing up and accepting responsibility, Donna becoming a more sophisticated businesswoman, Gordon finally being somewhat successful) but not always in a good way.

I mean, Cam did mature - but I don't really understand the total beat-down in her, including her appearance.  I understand that her world was pretty much destroyed at Mutiny, but it's like she has no personality at all.  I really thought at the end she was going to rip off her button-down shirt (!!) and have some kind of awesome t-shirt underneath. 

I'm not looking forward to the Joe soap drama AT ALL.  Although, with Tom out of the picture, maybe he and Cam will just hook up as a matter of course and we won't have to actually hear it or see it.

I do like how we're back to the original 3 - with (I assume) Donna saving the day, as she did before.

[ketose]

The writers admitted defeat and decided to do a time jump. That way, they could make Cameron grow up without the actual character development. So, the show started about 1983 and in those 4 years, Joe went from being a disgruntled salesman to a technological guru, Cameron went from a computer science major to a pioneer in computer gaming online. Gordon went from being a hardware engineer to working on the ground floor of the semi-public internet. And Donna went from being a junior engineer at TI to the CEO of a tech company.

And then, in the next 4 years, nothing happened. Donna's in VC, Joe sits around investing. Cameron is in the same lame ass marriage working on the same games. Gordon still owns a network he can't sell, trying to leverage Al Gore to make the Internet public. So little has happened to Gordon that the first episode featured a sitcom about him being a single dad and his daughter putting salt in his game.

But Gordon is kind of right. The internet wasn't really a "thing" until the mid 1990's. I see more time jumps next season.

Oh, and why couldn't Tom have fallen through the floor at Mutiny and died?

[Cramps]

Any scene that includes Joe and Cameron together is magic. 

I like the grown up Cameron wardrobe. After living in Japan for a few years it makes sense she'd be wearing simple utilitarian black and white clothes with some Vivienne Westwood tops thrown in. 

Thrilled we are getting a fourth season. 

[qtpye]

So, happy about the fourth season.  Did anyone else think of Peter Dinklage singing "Space Pants", whenever someone said Space Bike?  Okay...I guess it was just me.

[shelwood]

I spent way too much of the two episodes speculating how Donna & Gordon's younger daughter died and whether that's why they divorced, or perhaps that Not Joanie was hallucination of Gordon's THE WHOLE TIME, but finally Donna mentioned her and they obviously just didn't want to pay for someone to play The Spare Clark Daughter.

Really like the finale arc; in fact, the whole back half of the season. I found Tom very meh up until now, so kudos to the writers for finally pushing me into finding him insufferable. Totally okay with putting Joe and Cameron together again, especially now that Cameron has blossomed into full sociopath with that dick move she pulled on Donna.

So happy about the season renewal. Great setup, need to see where they go next. My guess is that Donna is going to CERN to get them working on their own browser so she and the Swiss become the rivals of our new J/C/G triumvirate of Definitely Not Mosaic.But, again, I thought they killed off Really, They Have *Two* Kids?, so my predictions are pretty crap.

[magdalene]

Very happy with these final two episodes of the season. I would feel sorry for Cam's husband if he wasn't so narrow-minded and .....small-minded. Obviously he has good reason to be jealous of Joe. But he and Cam have no chemistry while Cam and Joe always have had terrific chemistry.  They couldn't be together for a variety of reasons, like Cam's immaturity and Joe's unwillingness or inability to join the human race.  But she is all grown-up now and he is willing to be vulnerable.  And I think they have a shot at something real. 

So glad this show will get another season to go out on its own terms.

[green]

Well I watched the first season and forget about the show and missed the second I think. Not sure.  Last I saw it the 2 women went off to create Mutiny with the Texas guy's help. Gordon was a wuss.  Joe went off walkabout for some reason I forgot but I remember hoping a bear would eat him or something so it was outdoors somewhere.

I saw some ad on the TV a few weeks back and said oh yeah I remember that show but it has probably changed so much I won't be able to follow anything.  But I tuned in to find some new guy named Ryan being Joe's techno-lackey.  Cameron being a whacko towards Donna but at least she is kind of a fun rebel when not being a total brat and Gordon literally hanging out inside a closet.  Did I miss anything important in the meantime, heh?

Then I  miss an episode and come back to find the new guy has killed himself for some reason in my absence so guess I don't have to waste time figuring out who he was after all.

This last episode of the season has a time jump during which Cameron is still whacko and a brat but not a fun rebel anymore but a tamed little mouse married to nondescript dude.  Donna keeps trying to help her for some reason which she always seems to have been doing like forever.  Joe is still a bastard.  And Gordon lost his mustache and no longer lives in a closet.

Then the last scene is the original core three technoteers together.  First they were like Compaq and were ready to reverse engineer the PC.  Now they are about to invent the modern (well 56K modem version anyway) publicly accessed internet.  Will there be another time jump next season where the three's latest reunion leads to the smart phone?

I'm glad I tuned back in though.  Just funny we are basically just back to square one with this time the internet instead of the PC.  I missed gobs of the show yet because of this I feel like I haven't really missed anything at all.

Well last time Donna didn't get squished by Cameron then immediately recover to book flight to Switzerland to get her own inroad going with the Cern people.  Go Donna, beat this trio to the internet in whatever way you can.

Edited October 13, 2016 by green

[dubbel zout]

6 hours ago, magdalene said:

I would feel sorry for Cam's husband if he wasn't so narrow-minded and .....small-minded. Obviously he has good reason to be jealous of Joe. But he and Cam have no chemistry while Cam and Joe always have had terrific chemistry.

I do feel sorry for Tom. Cameron was an asshole to sleep with Joe at Codex, and then she lied about it because she's too big a coward to deal with the obvious problems in her marriage. Ugh. She hasn't grown up at all, IMO.

On the other hand, Tom was being a jerk about the project because of his insecurities about Joe. He (Tom) should have bowed out earlier if he was so against things. 

Joe continues to be an asshole, too. Tom tried to genuinely apologize and Joe barely deigns to accept it. Joe doesn't have the high road here, but that doesn't stop him from acting as if he does.

When Donna and Gordon were flirting in the bar at the beginning, I thought we'd cut to a scene of them having sex, and find out the earlier stuff was role-playing. I think they both know they're better off divorced, but they regret having to do it. That has to suck.

Gordon dealing with a 14-year-old daughter? Oh, Gordon. Good luck with that. You're in for rough times.

We didn't have nearly enough Bos, but that's usually the case. It seems he's enjoying retirement, but I bet if Toby Huss is around for the next season, someone will be able to lure him back to working or at least consulting.

[dmc]

Wow.


Well I think Gordon looked great.


I don't like cheating but I don't like Cameron with Tom. Tom is a nice guy but they have no chemistry and he doesn't challenge her enough. I think Joe is a better fit for her.


The Donna/Cameron fight AGAIN. I mean I do think Donna has changed and I also think she is kind of cutthroat but I don't think Cameron should have just bailed on the project with her. I think she should have just addressed her concerns with Donna about it.

[qtpye]

I am crazy happy that the show got a fourth season.  However, I thought these last two were lackluster and I think I know why.  It is the opposite of what happened to another one of my favorite shows Penny Dreadful.  Penny Dreadful was abruptly canceled right in the middle of the third season.  It was obvious the show runners just did not give a shit after that.  It was so bad that they had a Dr. Jekyll character "turn into" Mr. Hyde just by gaining a title and putting on a hat (that was it, nothing transformed physically or mentally).

I think the show runners of this program had the opposite problem.  They were probably ready to end the series and had a beautiful heart wrenching way for us to say good bye to these characters and had an okay season finale, if in the off chance the show got renewed, so that is what we got.

I did not care for the first part.  Yes, Joe and Cam have chemistry, but they were total assholes at the convention.  There was no need for them to make fun of those poor two brothers and their sad little printer (who the heck is funding these guys?).  They are both way too old to be acting like the cool kids at the popular table laughing at the dorks

The original Comdex episode of season 1 was one of the best episodes and a big reason I did not give up on the show.   If there were trying to compare the beautiful desperation and drive of the characters in 1983, compared to the sad ennui of the characters in 1990, then it was effective.

The second episode had its moments.  I appreciate that the band is back together again, but at least in the beginning, the chemistry was off.

I do not understand why Donna has such a pressing need for Cameron's friendship.  Cam would always take and Donna would always give and enable.  Yeah, going behind Cam's back to outvote her was a shit move, but you did it and now get over it.  Donna spending all this time and energy on a woman she has not spoken to in four years was pathetic.

Donna and Gordon's relationship is far better divorced then it ever was when they were married.  It seems like Donna has spent more time obsessing over Cameron then grieving about her failed marriage.

Please no more scenes with bitchy stereotypical teen daughter and overwhelmed clueless father.  Gordon and Donna's kids have been like the kids on Everybody Likes Raymond, they are there, but do not need to become main characters.

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

They are both way too old to be acting like the cool kids at the popular table laughing at the dorks

That bothered me, too. It showed again that neither Joe nor Cam has grown up. 

While I hate that Cam cheated on Tom and can't own up to it, at least she and Joe deserve each other. They're both jerks.

ETA: I forgot to mention in my original post that the CC for the Saved by the Bell episode dialogue had nothing to do with the actual episode shown. That was weird until I realized what was happening.

Edited October 12, 2016 by dubbel zout

[NorthstarATL]

When Donna said she'd be willing to get rid of Joe, it seemed so out of character for her, considering not just her previous portrayal, but the more recent agreement between the two about the project, that I knew it was a set-up for Cameron's cutting her out of the equation. I hope Donna destroys them all.

[tvmom]

I've enjoyed this show from the beginning. I'm glad it will have one more season to complete these characters' arcs. 

[dmc]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

That bothered me, too. It showed again that neither Joe nor Cam has grown up. 

While I hate that Cam cheated on Tom and can't own up to it, at least she and Joe deserve each other. They're both jerks.

ETA: I forgot to mention in my original post that the CC for the Saved by the Bell episode dialogue had nothing to do with the actual episode shown. That was weird until I realized what was happening.

Agree on Cameron but Joe seems different.  Old Joe would have looked at Donna's project and gone to Comdex for the sole purpose of recruiting Cameron without her knowledge.  He would have pretended he was there just to see her, got her vulnerable, and pitched it.  I saw some significant changes in Joe.  I liked the way when Donna called him  he totally seemed loyal to Cameron and I liked the way he leveled with Cameron about Donna calling him and then put Cameron over the project. Season 1 Joe wouldn't have done any of these things.

 

As for the Joe and Tom deal...he acted like a jerk here and I am sure he still has issues but he's seems to be trying to address them.

[qtpye]

I do think Joe has evolved, though in fairness there is probably at least a dozen years of age difference between Joe and Cam.  Joe was Cam's age now (or to be more specific 1990), in the first season and he was awful.  I am so happy that Lee Pace is finally going to be able to play Joe as a human being and not a cartoon.

[dubbel zout]

If Joe has evolved, he lets Cam drag him back to the land of immaturity too easily. She doesn't bring out the best in him, necessarily.

[qtpye]

Quote

If Joe has evolved, he lets Cam drag him back to the land of immaturity too easily. She doesn't bring out the best in him, necessarily.

Good point.  I wonder how these three will work together now that they have developed real friendships, as compared to hating each other when they were working on the Giant?  Donna being odd man out and perhaps the villain in the equation will be an interesting twist.

[magdalene]

It looked to me like Cam had slightly softened towards Donna - or maybe it was just the desire for the project overruling her negative feelings - before Donna threw Joe under the bus.  It was bad timing for Donna in a way as she couldn't know that Cam's feelings for Joe had changed in a significant way.

IMO,  Cam and Donna are both flawed.  Cam has annoyed me plenty when she behaved like an obnoxious teen in the past.  And Donna is no angel, she is totally ruthless when it suits her and when she wants something.

[Rapunzel]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

It looked to me like Cam had slightly softened towards Donna - or maybe it was just the desire for the project overruling her negative feelings - before Donna threw Joe under the bus.  It was bad timing for Donna in a way as she couldn't know that Cam's feelings for Joe had changed in a significant way.

IMO,  Cam and Donna are both flawed.  Cam has annoyed me plenty when she behaved like an obnoxious teen in the past.  And Donna is no angel, she is totally ruthless when it suits her and when she wants something.

Agree with this.

This was the first episode that I actually maybe started to like Cam a little bit more than I like Donna. Cam is right in that Donna casts people aside too easily and I get why that pushed Cam's buttons given their history. Part of the reason I may be finding Cam more relatable in this season finale may partly come from the fact that the 4 year time jump was a bit of a shocker and also, like Cam, I went off to live in Japan for a few years, though I went over a decade later. I do have to say, however, that the little Japanese they attempted in this episode was pretty bad. Although I suppose since Cam is a "gaijin" or "foreigner," maybe they did that intentionally.

All of the main characters started out as equals nearly a decade before with the "Giant", and none of them would be where there are without the other. These are not typical employer/employee relationships. Whatever feelings Cam has towards Joe I don't think are quite as relevant here given the history with Donna. Her feelings towards Donna and the fact that Donna, once again, tried to act like the major power player and take over something that clearly needs expertise from all areas seemed to only help reminded Cam of the loss of Mutiny. At the time, however, I thought Donna was right to do with Mutiny what she did and that Cam was behaving like a petulant child. It always annoyed me that Cam always referred to it as "her company" and didn't really seem to acknowledge the others. Yes, she may have been the largest single shareholder, but that doesn't mean a thing when the others align against you. However, now 4 years later, Donna seems to be behaving more like the dominant or controlling party in this new venture they are trying to put together when, really, it stems from something Joe helped dream up and that he and Gordon were going to try to take to the next level (until Ryan happened). Yes, Donna did some additional research, but she knew she needed Joe to get Cam and no way could Donna do this on her own.  Joe took it even further than that later on and also managed to eventually help bring Cam on board.

Joe managed to describe this "new idea" it in a way everyone (except Tom, who became a major ass), could understand and get behind. Joe took the time to do his research and had traveled the globe to get additional information, going places and meeting people the rest of the team didn't even know existed. His explanation and knowledge got them all aligned on common ground and excited about this project (again, except for Tom). The fact that Donna said, without even batting an eye, that they could just drop Joe, was ignorant on her part, especially given her past with Cam.

Until now, I really have never agreed with, nor really liked Cam, but I think she made some strong points and behaved (almost) like a grown-up. Her lying to Tom about sleeping with Joe is still wrong, however, as mentioned, Tom has become a bit of an ass anyway (not that that justifies the lying). Deep down he knows Joe and Cam have a deep connection - something he probably won't ever have with her - but he can't admit it to himself and is content to vent his frustrations on Joe and, to some extent, Cam, in the meantime. Joe didn't handle things as well as he could have with Tom either when they had their little altercation, however I think he has still shown growth where Tom has actually show regression.

I really hope this new venture works out for the original three, especially as I think Gordon in particular deserves something good. Yes, he's been a whiny ass at times and has gotten on my last nerve more than once, but the man has suffered a lot as well. I always remember that Donna basically bullied him into giving all of his Cardiff settlement money to Mutiny and he slaved away on the servers/HW for only a 10% share. This especially irritates me when I remembered that Donna comes from an Upper-Middle Class Family, and, while they lent Gordon AND DONNA money when needed, the mother made it a point to tell Gordon one day when he took the kids to visit that Donna and the girls would never owe them anything but that she expected Gordon to pay them back for the money they lent them. Gordon wrote them a check then and there with a decent chunk of his Cardiff money. I can't remember if they knew Gordon was ill or not when they took his check, but either way, they handled it in a pretty shitty manner. Their attitude towards money, wealth and entitlement is coming through in Donna and it is a shame.

I like it when Gordon and Joe are on good terms, like when they were planning to do business together again before Ryan died. I think those two, with Cameron as well, of course (provided she continues to show growth and keep Tom under control), could really do something amazing.

It seems like Donna is going to try to give them a run for their money, especially given her little tantrum in her car (at least it was private) and, before this episode, I may have been backing her. Now, however, I hope they beat her to it and make sure they protect their development work accurately along the way. I still find it hard to believe that she is now Sr. Partner in a VC firm when she was so off on the Mutiny IPO. It seems, even if she went/was able to go into VC, it would have taken her much longer to get that far.

I work for a Fortune Top 20 Tech Firm (though I'm an attorney and not an engineer), but seeing how these things play out on this show is always interesting. Even though things on this show back in Season 1 started happened starting a year or so after I was born, there are still a lot of similarities, especially regarding being first to market, IPOs, M&A, etc. That's one of the things that keeps me interested - along with Lee Pace, of course. Sorry to end on a shallow note, but I'm not complaining about the shirtless time we got with him this episode. ;-)  

Edited October 13, 2016 by Rapunzel

[magdalene]

I  liked Cam and Joe dancing to the Pixies, that really showcased the connection they have. 

I also liked the scene with Gordon and his daughter when in the morning he was struggling up the stairs and she saw his struggle and helped him up the stairs. We had seen her as this horrid brat just before, and now we got to see the loving daughter. 

Just like in real life, people are never just one thing on Halt.

[ganesh]

E9: I thought I missed an episode at first. I don't know about time jumps. It kind of seems like they ran out of what to do and needed to wipe everything out. Not that this isn't interesting, but I feel like we needed one step before to get here. 

I also needed zero seconds of the snotty daughter. I'll concede the crack about Slater sitting with the chair turned around was inspired. But the kids have been barely on the radar so I don't see the need for them now. 

I guess I wanted more of the show in the 80s. It seems like they needed to get to 1990 because of the internet so just forced the jump. I think they could have spent the two episodes with the divorce, Donna's big promotion, Cam's game, then open S4 with a 2 year jump to 1990 than the 4+year jump now. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by ganesh

[Armchair Critic]

Get over yourself Cameron. And in the new season please no teenage kids, I can't take more of Gordon's daughter.

[ganesh]

The whole dinner scene wasn't that great to me. I'd rather if they jumped to just fill the episode with flashbacks. 

[ketose]

I ended up seeing Episode 10 before Episode 9 and I wasn't any more lost than if I had watched the first episode first. I still think the whole time jump thing was weird since no one really did anything in that time. How in the hell is Cam still married to Tom? He must be a total doormat.

I enjoyed the use of Joe' go-to move of emasculating opponents. Every time Tom would bring up Ryan, Joe would talk about Cameron.

I'm trying to figure out the significance of "the King of Wishful Thinking" playing on the CD-ROM drive. 

[Rapunzel]

Just as a side note, I watched "Our Brand Is Crisis" a couple weeks ago for the first time. I kept looking at one of the campaign guys and knew he looked familiar, but I just couldn't place him. It finally hit me that it was Gordon from H&CF with no facial hair!

I was actually glad to see he had shaved it off in H&FC  (wonder if he did it for the film role or if his facial hair was real to begin with). He looks younger and, in my opinion, more handsome, without it. However, given that his character is supposed to have a degenerative illness (though seemingly one that may/can degenerate fairly slowly), I wonder if they did it just to keep him looking younger for now so he can quickly grow back a beard/goatee with lots of grey in it if they do another significant time jump. Love to see that he's taken up cooking though and has hobbies beyond sitting in the closet with his Ham radio.

Also curious to see what happened to the other daughter, Hayley, and why Donna came to Gordon's house wanting Hayley's retainer for Joanie as she mentioned Joanie forgot it. Maybe it's a keepsake/reminder Joanie likes to keep with her? I also wonder if the loss of Hayley (if that is what actually happened - I think the show left some ambiguity in there) could be perhaps part of why Donna and Gordon split. Something similar happened in my family, so though Donna and Gordon may have had other issues, something like this could have definitely played a role, regardless of how it may have happened.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Rapunzel

[whiporee]

I'm squarely on team Cam in this, though I don't think Donna's out or that Cam intended to push her out. Just that she didn't want her around, which I can understand. Donna's off raising seed money or something -- there's no way she lets herself get cut out. She just knows in this period of development, she's worthless, and Cam pointed that out to her. Just like Donna fundamentally told Cam her opinions of where their mutually created company should go next were. Goes around comes around. 

And I can understand Cam not trusting Donna here. Donna got greedy and destroyed Mutiny because she wanted nicer things. Cam was trying to build something that could last -- and explained what they could accomplish if they were patient -- and Donna decided that wasn't good enough. She wanted more and she wanted it NOW, and it let to MNet.  And now that she knows she actually needs tech geniuses to to tech genius things, she's trying to bring them all back in under her guise. Cam's right to tell her to get the fuck out. 

I liked both episodes. I thought the Ryan references were too heavy handed for someone who had just appeared, but the only other person they could have used would have been Gordon, and that would have not worked. But it's fun to watch Joe pontificate, and it was fun to watch he and Cam dance. 

Bos' boat is way too small for Diane's income, though, and for those nasty Bay area seas. Maybe he's building up.

[AllyB]

I'm pretty sure that right in their first scene when Gordon asked Donna to have Joanie on the following Friday, he mentioned Hayley still being at science camp.

What I'm confused about is what Gordon and Joe have been doing for the last few years. Gordon has obviously set up his NSF company and is doing pretty well, has a number of employees, owns a nice house etc. But hasn't made the mega-bucks Joe, Ryan and he believed were possible, as the net is still not available for commercial use. And Joe is sitting in his office turning down investment proposals. I'm not sure what happened in between. It seems Gordon kept Joe with him after Ryan's death. And they set up what has become a fairly respectable business but isn't what they hoped for. Did Joe then cash out at some point and sit about waiting for a new project to inspire him? Or is he still a silent partner of Gordon's but they just haven't seen each other since 2 April's ago as Joe is just too miserable to do proper work? It just didn't feel clear. Or maybe it was and I missed it.

I'm not wild about the time jump, as Ketose said, it just seems like the writers used the jump to have the characters all have major character development that they didn't need to bother writing. Some of that was fine as it had been set up all season. Joe's developing humanity and humility, Donna's hardening and being more ruthless. But demure brunette Cameron was unearned. Her feelings about screwing up her marriage were unearned because why would we care about a marriage we haven't seen. As for Gordon......, 4 years ago he was spending huge amounts of time in a closet talking to someone on a ham radio that probably wasn't plugged in. And now, while he clearly has difficulty with stairs the whole madness and head pain aspect of his illness seems to have disappeared and he's become an urbane amateur chef, with a chilled out and fun personality. It's a massive change in personality and couldn't all just be attributed to his divorce and new work life. Especially as he is just as dissatisfied with his new company as he was with running Cardiff. And even before it was confirmed that he and Donna had divorced they were flirting up a storm, showing more chemistry than we've ever seen from them before. That's even before we get to the whole, Donna wanted to have sex with him but he misread it and offered to set her up with one of his staff! There shouldn't be hints of reconciliation of a divorced couple when up until the week before they were one of the most miserable married couples ever depicted on tv.

[queenanne]

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

I'm pretty sure that right in their first scene when Gordon asked Donna to have Joanie on the following Friday, he mentioned Hayley still being at science camp.

What I'm confused about is what Gordon and Joe have been doing for the last few years. Gordon has obviously set up his NSF company and is doing pretty well, has a number of employees, owns a nice house etc. But hasn't made the mega-bucks Joe, Ryan and he believed were possible, as the net is still not available for commercial use. And Joe is sitting in his office turning down investment proposals. I'm not sure what happened in between. It seems Gordon kept Joe with him after Ryan's death. And they set up what has become a fairly respectable business but isn't what they hoped for. Did Joe then cash out at some point and sit about waiting for a new project to inspire him? Or is he still a silent partner of Gordon's but they just haven't seen each other since 2 April's ago as Joe is just too miserable to do proper work? It just didn't feel clear. Or maybe it was and I missed it.

I'm not wild about the time jump, as Ketose said, it just seems like the writers used the jump to have the characters all have major character development that they didn't need to bother writing. Some of that was fine as it had been set up all season. Joe's developing humanity and humility, Donna's hardening and being more ruthless. But demure brunette Cameron was unearned. Her feelings about screwing up her marriage were unearned because why would we care about a marriage we haven't seen. As for Gordon......, 4 years ago he was spending huge amounts of time in a closet talking to someone on a ham radio that probably wasn't plugged in. And now, while he clearly has difficulty with stairs the whole madness and head pain aspect of his illness seems to have disappeared and he's become an urbane amateur chef, with a chilled out and fun personality. It's a massive change in personality and couldn't all just be attributed to his divorce and new work life. Especially as he is just as dissatisfied with his new company as he was with running Cardiff. And even before it was confirmed that he and Donna had divorced they were flirting up a storm, showing more chemistry than we've ever seen from them before. That's even before we get to the whole, Donna wanted to have sex with him but he misread it and offered to set her up with one of his staff! There shouldn't be hints of reconciliation of a divorced couple when up until the week before they were one of the most miserable married couples ever depicted on tv.

Yes, I agree, Haley was mentioned once per episode (when Donna showed up to hit on Gordon she also used the excuse of picking up Haley's retainer), thus not dead.  (Aside:  was Joanie really campaigning to give up a bedroom on the *ground* floor?  does she know nothing about the benefits of avoiding stairs when sneaking out of the house?)  

As for the last, my money says that the producers are running a competition to see if it's Donna and Gordon who reconcile, or Joe and Cameron, as clearly both couples won't make it out alive, so to speak.

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, whiporee said:

Donna got greedy and destroyed Mutiny because she wanted nicer things.

That's unfair to Donna. Everyone but Cam voted to go ahead with the IPO. Who knows what destroyed Mutiny? The IPO failure didn't help, but it's not all on Donna.

2 minutes ago, queenanne said:

 (Aside:  was Joanie really campaigning to give up a bedroom on the *ground* floor?  does she know nothing about the benefits of avoiding stairs when sneaking out of the house?)  

Gordon's bedroom has an en suite bathroom, I think, and that's a pretty big lure for a teenage girl. I might be torn. Hee.

[Hanahope]

So the time jump made me confused as to what happened with Mutiny.  We didn't even get some exposition on it other than Mnet was what was left of community.  How did Donna get into Diane's company?

Its been 4 years and Cam is still a child.  Learning to work with people you don't necessarily like is what makes one an adult.  Cam threw another tantrum and this time Donna didn't have Gordon's backing to keep her in.  I'm interested to see what Donna is doing.  The same thing but with Cern? I hope she sticks it to Cam, except that I guess Cam is supposed to be the "heroine" so she'll come out on top.  Bah.  Go back to Japan and make your little Atari games.  If Cam is supposed to be the anti-hero, along with Joe and Gordon, they need to make them all a bit more likeable.  Frankly, all of them suck.

I still don't see why Ryan was needed or wtf is "you're not safe" rant was all about.  Especially when the 4 leads are kicking around over why do we need an internet, what will people do with it.  I mean really.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

That's unfair to Donna. Everyone but Cam voted to go ahead with the IPO. Who knows what destroyed Mutiny? The IPO failure didn't help, but it's not all on Donna.

It would have been nice to actually seen that, and then jump ahead. 

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Its been 4 years and Cam is still a child.  Learning to work with people you don't necessarily like is what makes one an adult.

Ain't that the truth. Knowing when to shut up rather than chew them out is a corollary. 

I actually would like everyone to succeed. They don't necessarily *need* each other to succeed, but I don't think this needs to be a dark and morose ending since they're on the cusp of the internet revolution. 

[ketose]

16 hours ago, whiporee said:

I'm squarely on team Cam in this, though I don't think Donna's out or that Cam intended to push her out. Just that she didn't want her around, which I can understand. Donna's off raising seed money or something -- there's no way she lets herself get cut out. She just knows in this period of development, she's worthless, and Cam pointed that out to her. Just like Donna fundamentally told Cam her opinions of where their mutually created company should go next were. Goes around comes around. 

And I can understand Cam not trusting Donna here. Donna got greedy and destroyed Mutiny because she wanted nicer things. Cam was trying to build something that could last -- and explained what they could accomplish if they were patient -- and Donna decided that wasn't good enough. She wanted more and she wanted it NOW, and it let to MNet.  And now that she knows she actually needs tech geniuses to to tech genius things, she's trying to bring them all back in under her guise. Cam's right to tell her to get the fuck out. 

I liked both episodes. I thought the Ryan references were too heavy handed for someone who had just appeared, but the only other person they could have used would have been Gordon, and that would have not worked. But it's fun to watch Joe pontificate, and it was fun to watch he and Cam dance. 

Bos' boat is way too small for Diane's income, though, and for those nasty Bay area seas. Maybe he's building up.

There's a decent chance Cameron could have slaved away at Mutiny for another year and the company would have gone to crap anyway. If I recall, CompuServe wanted to buy them out. That would have been the big payday, because they probably just wanted to get the commerce software. When CompuServe couldn't buy them, they just made their own and online gaming went into hibernation as home game systems became much better.

The thing Donna did was introduce them all to the concept of http as a vehicle for expanding what you could get on a computer network. Cameron could write code and Joe thinks big and Gordon owns a big network (and Tom is useless) but it was Donna that saw something there.

[ganesh]

I applaud the unanimity of Tom derision here. 

[ganesh]

E10: Shut up, TOM!

Does no one know how research gets done? They have one meeting for 4 hours and then bail on the concept?

Edited October 14, 2016 by ganesh

[dubbel zout]

It's not unanimous. I like Tom. I hate his pissing contest with Joe, and I hate that Cam cheated on him and neither of them have the guts to talk about it. But I think he's a decent guy.

[ganesh]

I'm kind of over the both of them. It's been a long show time. At some point, you work with people that you don't really like, as long as they're bringing something valuable to the table. It's called being professional. Cam had the better part of a decade to grow up. 

Whoa, who had car phones in 1990? Damn Donna!

[AllyB]

20 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It's not unanimous. I like Tom. I hate his pissing contest with Joe, and I hate that Cam cheated on him and neither of them have the guts to talk about it. But I think he's a decent guy.

I kind of liked his reaction to their analogies. 'Is it a tunnel or a door? You can't even get your analogy straight. Or a universal decoder ring or a stadium.' Obviously with our benefit of hindsight we know he was wrong and all of the gangs' analogies are partially right. But I could totally see where he was coming from. 3 people he probably hates, Donna and Gordon for ousting his wife from her own company and Joe who he (correctly) suspects she recently cheated on him with are trying to draw his wife back into their lives with a scheme that they can't even describe coherently. Even knowing how wrong he was a little part of me was thinking, 'go Tom!'

Edited October 14, 2016 by AllyB

[Rapunzel]

16 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm kind of over the both of them. It's been a long show time. At some point, you work with people that you don't really like, as long as they're bringing something valuable to the table. It's called being professional. Cam had the better part of a decade to grow up. 

Whoa, who had car phones in 1990? Damn Donna!

Actually, car phones were first used in the mid-1940s. Many movie stars started having them installed back then. Also, they were pretty big in the 80s until the big monstrous thing that we all know now as a "cell phone" first became more popular (cell phones were first commercially available in the early 80s or so).

I didn't see a cord attached to the phone Donna was using, so I think she may have been calling from a cell phone rather than a car phone, especially as they were available then, given that it was 1990. My family had its first cell phone in 1991, though they were pretty expensive to buy and to use. My family intended it be used only for emergencies, but my older sister, who was 12 at the time, talked on it every chance she got. I was just 5 or so and didn't really care one way or the other.

What I didn't like was Donna's whole attitude when Bos came to visit her at her new VC office to congratulate her and she kind of looked down on him and his gift of Wild Turkey a bit and she made a point to mention that she had her own personal assistant, etc. That's who it seemed she was calling with her cell/car phone and demanding that they book a flight for her to Switzerland right away after Cam told her to piss off. I used to like Donna, but her whole behavior and attitude in the season finale has really made me second guess that.

She acts bossy and superior, despite the fact that she was wrong on Mutiny, and I still do not understand how, after such a big failure, she made Sr. Partner at a VC Firm so fast. Diane must really like her - if it were the real world, she would have been tossed out when Mutiny, or whatever its final name was, went completely bust. 

Donna is also incapable of launching this new venture on her own, which is why she had to ask for Joe's help to try to get Cam on board. I'm glad Joe didn't help her, though he was honest with Cam as to what Donna wanted. Seeing Cam give her the boot was a bit satisfying, given Donna's demeanor in the finale and the fact that she tried to oust Joe just like she ousted Cam years before. Guess Karma really can be a bitch.  

I also dislike how she has treated Gordon. Yes, as I've mentioned in previous posts, Gordon can be a pain in the ass, but the man is ill and she bullied him into investing his Cardiff money into Mutiny (I know, he had a one night stand, but he was honest about it and he had just been diagnosed with his illness - again, still not the right thing to do, but it didn't warrant Donna's reaction either) for just 10% of Mutiny. He should have gotten more than 10% especially as he bought the servers and was keeping the HW side of things together. Donna just didn't want him to have more because she was upset about the one nighter. 

Donna's Parents also bullied him as I mentioned in one of my other posts and made him pay them back for money that both he and Donna borrowed for the "Giant" and other things. They clearly stated that Donna and the girls would owe them nothing, but they expected Gordon to pay up, which he did with part of his Cardiff money.

As previously stated, I used to really like Donna (at the very least I nearly always liked her over Cam), however the season finale and her attitude has kind of made me revisit that. I hope that the original 3 get this new venture off the ground and ensure she doesn't get a piece of it at all - especially since she probably got quite a bit off of Gordon in the divorce since he won the suit against Joe. CA is a community property state, so she probably cleaned up pretty well as Mutiny would have been bust at the time and she wasn't Sr. Partner in a VC company yet. She already took his Cardiff money, so taking anything else he had probably didn't bother her in the least.

I still honestly cannot believe that the season finale caused me to change direction on Donna so much, but it has. Maybe something will help redeem her again next season, but right now she just looks like a selfish, self serving, spiteful person who only cares about herself and how she can benefit. I know others on the show have been like this as well, but they all appear to be growing, developing and maturing now whereas Donna seems to be going over to the dark side and regressing when she used to be the mature, reasonable, responsible one.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Rapunzel

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, Rapunzel said:

Actually, car phones were first used in the mid-1940s. Many movie stars started having them installed back then. Also, they were pretty big in the 80s until the big monstrous thing that we all know now as a "cell phone" first became more popular (cell phones were first commercially available in the early 80s or so).

I didn't see a cord attached to the phone Donna was using, so I think she may have been calling from a cell phone rather than a car phone, especially as they were available then, given that it was 1990. My family had its first cell phone in 1991, though they were pretty expensive to buy and to use. My family intended it be used only for emergencies, but my older sister, who was 12 at the time, talked on it every chance she got. I was just 5 or so and didn't really care one way or the other.

What I didn't like was Donna's whole attitude when Bos came to visit her at her new VC office to congratulate her and she kind of looked down on him and his gift of Wild Turkey a bit and she made a point to mention that she had her own personal assistant, etc. That's who it seemed she was calling with her cell/car phone and demanding that they book a flight for her to Switzerland right away after Cam told her to piss off. I used to like Donna, but her whole behavior and attitude in the season finale has really made me second guess that.

She acts bossy and superior, despite the fact that she was wrong on Mutiny, and I still do not understand how, after such a big failure, she made Sr. Partner at a VC Firm so fast. Diane must really like her - if it were the real world, she would have been tossed out when Mutiny, or whatever its final name was, went completely bust. 

Donna is also incapable of launching this new venture on her own, which is why she had to ask for Joe's help to try to get Cam on board. I'm glad Joe didn't help her, though he was honest with Cam as to what Donna wanted. Seeing Cam give her the boot was a bit satisfying, given Donna's demeanor in the finale and the fact that she tried to oust Joe just like she ousted Cam years before. Guess Karma really can be a bitch.  

I also dislike how she has treated Gordon. Yes, as I've mentioned in previous posts, Gordon can be a pain in the ass, but the man is ill and she bullied him into investing his Cardiff money into Mutiny (I know, he had a one night stand, but he was honest about it and he had just been diagnosed with his illness - again, still not the right thing to do, but it didn't warrant Donna's reaction either) for just 10% of Mutiny. He should have gotten more than 10% especially as he bought the servers and was keeping the HW side of things together. Donna just didn't want him to have more because she was upset about the one nighter. 

Donna's Parents also bullied him as I mentioned in one of my other posts and made him pay them back for money that both he and Donna borrowed for the "Giant" and other things. They clearly stated that Donna and the girls would owe them nothing, but they expected Gordon to pay up, which he did with part of his Cardiff money.

As previously stated, I used to really like Donna (at the very least I nearly always liked her over Cam), however the season finale and her attitude has kind of made me revisit that. I hope that the original 3 get this new venture off the ground and ensure she doesn't get a piece of it at all - especially since she probably got quite a bit off of Gordon in the divorce since he won the suit against Joe. CA is a community property state, so she probably cleaned up pretty well as Mutiny would have been bust at the time and she wasn't Sr. Partner in a VC company yet. She already took his Cardiff money, so taking anything else he had probably didn't bother her in the least.

I still honestly cannot believe that the season finale caused me to change direction on Donna so much, but it has. Maybe something will help redeem her again next season, but right now she just looks like a selfish, self serving, spiteful person who only cares about herself and how she can benefit. I know others on the show have been like this as well, but they all appear to be growing, developing and maturing now whereas Donna seems to be going over to the dark side and regressing when she used to be the mature, reasonable, responsible one.

If you had told me at the start of the season, that Donna would be the villain and Joe would kind of become a sweetheart (except for participating in adultery) I would wonder what if you were high or drunk.  If you had told me the writers were going to be able to portray this in an believable organic manner...I would think you must be certifiable.

I think this is a series self correction that is addressing what has always been the weakest part of the show...the character of Joe.  When the series first started he was presented as the typical mysterious white male antihero.  However, by that point this type of character had worn out its welcome.  It did not help that he was written as a caricature (though Lee Pace is usually great), with many scenes of Joe living in his minimalist Patrick Bateman style apartment swinging a bat.  Later, we found out that he was not so much a brilliant visionary, but more of a spoiled rich brat with severe mommy and daddy issues.  Now, he seems like a real person with vulnerabilities and strengths.

In the first season Donna was the beautiful smart kind doormat, who put everyone else's needs ahead of her own.  I first realized that Donna had changed when she did not give two shits that her sick husband, who is prone to blackouts and fainting, is walking around on top of a precariously high mainframe, with the ceiling literally coming down on his head.  Those are not good working conditions for a healthy person.

I am so happy that we get a fourth season and will enjoy watching Donna move to the dark side.

[ganesh]

I'm not really seeing her as a villain. 

[dubbel zout]

Me neither. Why is what Donna has done so much worse than anyone else?

[qtpye]

I don't think of her as a villain.  I see her as someone who, rightly or wrongly, does not believe she gets the respect and credit she deserves for her contributions.  In the first season she is the one who came up with the piggy back concept that allowed the Giant to be so compact.  Later, she was one of the main reasons they were able to retrieve Cam's data after show Joe pulled his stunt to teach Cameron a lesson.   Of course we all know she championed community instead of gaming that kept Mutiny alive in the second season.  Even Gordon called her a "money person", which he later apologized for classifying her in that way.

I think she will be perceived as a villain, because she will be going up against the three main protagonists of the series.  She no longer has any ties to Joe and Cam so that gives her no reason not to be ruthless.  She still has a friendly relationship with Gordon and they are still raising their children together, even though they are divorced, but otherwise that she has no reason not to go for the throat.  It should be interesting to watch and a good example of how relationships are always changing.

[attica]

I liked the finale a lot, and am happy for the renewal. Random thoughts:

• Cam's hesitant half-bow in her first Comdex scene. You could see the 'oh, Japanese habit not good here!' flash across her face. Also good was her wordless appreciation of her first bite of burrito.
• Donna's scene in the car. Nobody puts Donna in the corner!
• Video dating. OMG, the full-body cringing. I don't remember, though, if you got to bring tapes of prospects home. I sorta think not, but, the contrivance fairy certainly needed it.
• I thought Toby Huss played both of his scenes like he was late for the dentist. 

[ketose]

I think Joe has matured, but he hasn't necessarily changed. In season 1, he was a visionary and he tried to create that vision. By season 3, he's still a visionary, but he needed a little bit of prodding because of his grief over useless Ryan.

Donna was a junior engineer in season 1 and she's still that in a way. She can improve upon an idea, but she can't see the big picture. In terms of WWW, she saw that there was potential, but didn't know what it was.

I think they just pulled Cameron out of stasis, because she hasn't shown a lot of growth.

[Kel Varnsen]

On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎13 at 7:04 PM, ganesh said:

I applaud the unanimity of Tom derision here. 

I thought it was interesting that for as awesome and important Tom thought his job was, well Sega as a company that makes game consoles isn't really a thing anymore.

On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎13 at 5:08 PM, ketose said:

There's a decent chance Cameron could have slaved away at Mutiny for another year and the company would have gone to crap anyway. If I recall, CompuServe wanted to buy them out. That would have been the big payday, because they probably just wanted to get the commerce software. When CompuServe couldn't buy them, they just made their own and online gaming went into hibernation as home game systems became much better.

Yea I can see Mutiny not lasting very long if it tried to become a big thing. I would imagine (and I think I would have been a bit younger than Joanie at the time) that video game technology would have taken off way faster than the capability of modems. So why play a crappy online mutiny games when sega genesis or even arcade games or NES games would be way better. And everything else they could do could easily be copied I would imagine, so why would subscribers pay for chat and buying shit when you know someone else out there is going to offer the same thing for cheaper. They really should have taken the 20 million dollar offer.

Also what the hell was Cameron's problem. I really wished that when she said she couldn't work with Donna, that Donna just said "well bye". I mean she was talking about how she couldn't believe Donna could just toss people aside, but if I recall she was the one who wanted to fire the swapmeet guys, and she was the one who totally blew off Ryan's suggestions. Plus you know that if she felt slightly different about Joe at that moment she would have been ok with Donna's suggestion to not work with him.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Kel Varnsen

[qtpye]

Quote

Also what the hell was Cameron's problem. I really wished that when she said she couldn't work with Donna, that Donna just said "well bye". I mean she was talking about how she couldn't believe Donna could just toss people aside, but if I recall she was the one who wanted to fire the swapmeet guys, and she was the one who totally blew off Ryan's suggestions. Plus you know that if she felt slightly different about Joe at that moment she would have been ok with Donna's suggestion to not work with him.

Cameron was awfully smug in her own moral superiority in that scene.  Heck, Cam never admitted that she was a big part of the stuff that sent Boz to jail.  Yes, I know Boz voluntarily took the fall, but it was not like Cam had to go along with it.

This is one of the reasons I am happy that Donna is going to be shedding her image as, Mommy who is going to make everything better.  Yeah, Donna has been a bitch, but she has also enabled and taken way too much crap from everyone.  You can't work with me Cam, well fine, I am going to enjoy smashing you into pulp, game on.

Again, so happy we are getting another season...thank you, AMC.