Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You

[random chance]

Aggghhhh that was the one Lorelai thing I ever empathized with!  I too would rather have a Certs for dinner than have to make small talk.  It's got nothing to do with the people themselves, it's just the excruciating job of thinking up things to say and then trying to think up a response to the things other people come up with.  "So what brings you here?  Isn't this weather nice?  Did you enjoy the pumpkin spice muffins?  Are you here with your husband?"  I'm not good at it.  I need a small talk ghostwriter.

I can't imagine that Lorelai would have stuck with Trix if Trix treated her like she treated Emily.  Trix often made Emily look soft.

[twoods]

But Lorelai isn't introverted like Rory- she talks a mile a minute and converses with everyone. Plus, she had to make small talk daily at her job. I find it hard to believe that small talk would make her that unhappy- another inconsistency in the way the writers handled her. They would make her a chatterbox when the story needed it, or aloof at other times. 

[33kaitykaity]

4 hours ago, random chance said:

I can't imagine that Lorelai would have stuck with Trix if Trix treated her like she treated Emily.  Trix often made Emily look soft.

There is no way Trix could've treated Emily the way Trix did without Richard's tacit consent for such.  This is why "That'll do, pig" is occupied in my heart as a wonderful Lorelai/Emily moment.  They are on Lor's couch and Emily is grousing about the whole house, yet when Lorelai has that grin, Emily finally has some awareness about Emily's own daughter and how to not be in such pain that Emily's MIL dishes it out in Pure Blood Marie Antoinette fashion.  

[shron17]

5 hours ago, twoods said:

But Lorelai isn't introverted like Rory- she talks a mile a minute and converses with everyone. Plus, she had to make small talk daily at her job. I find it hard to believe that small talk would make her that unhappy- another inconsistency in the way the writers handled her. They would make her a chatterbox when the story needed it, or aloof at other times. 

She also just broke off an engagement.  I thought it made sense that she wanted a little peace and quiet and space from other people.  You could see her tense up when they drove back into Stars Hollow and she knew she was going to have to talk about it.  Lorelai was often a chatterbox to avoid talking about her feelings and consistently ran away from her problems rather than staying and trying to work things out.  Probably because she didn't like to compromise, like Emily pointed out in season 7, and running away made it unnecessary.

[random chance]

8 hours ago, twoods said:

But Lorelai isn't introverted like Rory- she talks a mile a minute and converses with everyone.

I take your point, but she mostly rattles on about herself, rather than answering questions like "so what do you do?" Although now that you mention it, you'd think she'd be happy to be the center of small talk attention!

6 hours ago, 33kaitykaity said:

There is no way Trix could've treated Emily the way Trix did without Richard's tacit consent for such. 

Oh yeah, totally.

[TwirlyGirly]

Watched "Go, Bulldogs!" this morning on FreeForm...Lorelai at her worst.

The episode take place during Rory's senior year at Yale. Lorelai has never been to a Parent's Weekend, and mocks it endlessly when Christopher shows interest in attending.

Finally Lorelai relents and agrees to go with Christopher - but only for Saturday's events. Upon arrival at Yale, Lorelai continues to verbally mock the event incessantly. In this episode, IMO, Lorelai manages to go from "cute quips" to completely obnoxious less than 10 minutes into the script. Of course, the point of Parent's Weekend is to familiarize parents of Yale students with the culture of the school, but Lorelai insists on making it all about her (and later, her and Emily and Richard) from the get-go.

When she discovers Emily and Richard are attending, and in fact have attended every Parent's Weekend since Rory enrolled, she becomes enraged, and naturally makes a scene. How DARE they! Even though she has never had an interest in attending Parent's Weekend herself, what nerve for Rory's grandparents to attend! (It would be totally out of character for Lorelai NOT to turn any event at which both she and her parents are present into a source of major conflict).

We see Lorelai attending a lecture with Christopher - a lecture he had really been looking forward to hearing. However, since the topic is not something that interests Lorelai, she chatters and makes obnoxious remarks throughout the entire event, making it impossible for Christopher to enjoy it. (Bear in mind this is the same Lorelai that insists on dictating a list of rules for acceptable behavior others must follow during activities she enjoys).

Then, Christopher offers to take Lorelai, Rory, and the Yale Daily News staff out to lunch at a fancy restaurant. The end of the meal is interrupted by a call to the staff to cover a situation occurring on campus. Rory and the rest of the staff leave to return to the news room, working late into the night to finish the issue.

Lorelai's takeaway from the day? The fact that Rory had newspaper business to attend to meant she wasn't able to have dinner with Emily and Richard, so she, Lorelai, WON!

Because Lorelai couldn't care less about how important it is for kids to have strong relationships with their grandparents, who often provide needed love and support to their grandchildren. It's all about Lorelai WINNING the contest she imagines between herself and Emily and Richard for Rory's love and attention.

Ugh. Times TWO.

[Taryn74]

7 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Watched "Go, Bulldogs!" this morning on FreeForm...Lorelai at her worst.

Ugh.  I've only ever watched that ep once, and you just reminded me why.  Hate, hate, hate.

[scarynikki12]

Is that the episode where Chris finally starts showing some awareness of his neglect of Rory and Lorelai brushes it off as no big deal? 

[FictionLover]

I don't hate Lorelai like the posters here do but I found this type of behavior OOC for the type of mom she was to Rory. She didn't want to be involved at Chilton as well and had to shamed into participating in school functions. She loved helping in town fuctions so it wasn't that she was lazy or didn't have a sense of community, and more importantly, she wanted to be involved in every aspect of Rory's life. I think the writers messed up writing this behavior in Lorelai's character.

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Is that the episode where Chris finally starts showing some awareness of his neglect of Rory and Lorelai brushes it off as no big deal? 

Yep. She excuses his behavior to make him feel better.

FictionLover said: "I don't hate Lorelai like the posters here do but I found this type of behavior OOC for the type of mom she was to Rory. She didn't want to be involved at Chilton as well and had to shamed into participating in school functions. She loved helping in town fuctions so it wasn't that she was lazy or didn't have a sense of community, and more importantly, she wanted to be involved in every aspect of Rory's life. I think the writers messed up writing this behavior in Lorelai's character"

When Lorelai participated in town activities or with other activities involving Rory, the group consisted of those part of Lorelai's "circle," usually - the people she identified with. The parents at Chilton and at Yale were, in Lorelai's mind, part of her parent's circle (in terms of wealth and lifestyle) the things Lorelai deplored.

I wish we knew if Lorelai was at all involved with school functions when Rory was still a student at Stars Hollow High. I suspect she would have been, because those kids (and their parents) were part of her "circle" and she probably perceived them as "like-minded" folks.

Edited September 14, 2016 by TwirlyGirly

[RachelKM]

On 9/14/2016 at 0:43 PM, TwirlyGirly said:

Yep. She excuses his behavior to make him feel better.

Well, if she doesn't excuse his behavior there, she might have to examine her own behavior in encouraging Chris in his irresponsibility for Rory's entire life.  Chris was definitely a deadbeat, at minimum in the emotional sense (I don't think it was ever addressed whether he provided any support even on a sporadic basis, but I could be wrong).  But Lorelai let him off the hook from the beginning (literally at Rory's birth) and never seemed inclined to try to get Chris to be a father as opposed to some a-hole Kerouac-wannabe drop-in dad who was the cool buddy type without any attempt to be an actual parent. 

I don't mind Chris as much as most people.  In fact, I often liked him on the show.  But on the subject of Rory, I have no tolerance for his shit and I don't really like that Lorelai never seemed to be bothered by it.   

Edited September 19, 2016 by RachelKM

[moonb]

1 hour ago, TwirlyGirly said:

When Lorelai participated in town activities or with other activities involving Rory, the group consisted of those part of Lorelai's "circle," usually - the people she identified with. The parents at Chilton and at Yale were, in Lorelai's mind, part of her parent's circle (in terms of wealth and lifestyle) the things Lorelai deplored.

I wish we knew if Lorelai was at all involved with school functions when Rory was still a student at Stars Hollow High. I suspect she would have been, because those kids (and their parents) were part of her "circle" and she probably perceived them as "like-minded" folks.

This was barely touched on in the show, but the few times we see Lorelai with other parents at Chilton and Stars Hollow High, she's definitely seen as an outsider. I'm thinking of the season 2 fashion show at Chilton and season 3's episode where Lorelai upsets the Stars Hollow PTA by talking about being a teen mom. It's implied that Lorelai fit in better with the Chilton parents, iirc, but I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from that since it felt like a dropped plot point. Lorelai wasn't exactly friendly with other moms, after all, and her friendship with Sookie wasn't based on motherhood.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Is that the episode where Chris finally starts showing some awareness of his neglect of Rory and Lorelai brushes it off as no big deal? 

It's funny because, as I've been binge watching (and ironically, I've stopped just a few episodes into season seven) the series for the first time in a decade, Christopher has shown some awareness, but it's usually a line or two and then brushed away by someone. Like the episode where he finds out Sherry's pregnant and wants to do the parenting thing right, as he screwed it up with Rory (followed by Lorelai seeming to be more upset that she lost another chance with Christopher instead of being upset for Rory that her dad is finally being a dad seventeen years too late). 

Thinking about it, Lorelai was a good mom in some aspects, but not in others. As in, she never was really involved with Rory's life outside of her. She seemed to only do some school activities to meet a minimum requirement, she didn't actively help her daughter reach her future goals, and she kind of subconsciously isolated Rory from a lot.

My opinion now rests in that Lorelai Gilmore's a great best friend, but she's not a great mother. I think the one of the things she did right as a mother was asking her parents for money to help Rory get into Chilton, but most other things was done from a best friends perspective. 

[RachelKM]

Oh, I had forgotten about their reaction to Jess.  I didn't do a full re-watch, just the latter season so I could remember where everyone was with the show (and I've watched S1-4 a lot in the past). That is at least as egregious if not worse.  On the one hand, Jess was rejecting them a bit.  On the other hand, HE WAS A KID YOU A-HOLES!  Who refuses to welcome a kid at all let alone the nephew* of one of their own?   

 

*Liz was one of their own too, but she had the audacity to leave, so....

Edited September 14, 2016 by RachelKM

[Janet Snakehole]

My least favorite Lorelai moment will always be "I got the good kid."

[Viqutorious]

1 hour ago, Janet Snakehole said:

 

My least favorite Lorelai moment will always be "I got the good kid."

 

Lauren Graham has said that she hated saying that line.

[random chance]

My least favorite moment is "oh, so you're my almost-mommy!"  It just makes me cringe.

[JayInChicago]

And of course, her telling Dean that *they* didn't break up.

[TimetravellingBW]

15 hours ago, moonb said:

This was barely touched on in the show, but the few times we see Lorelai with other parents at Chilton and Stars Hollow High, she's definitely seen as an outsider. I'm thinking of the season 2 fashion show at Chilton and season 3's episode where Lorelai upsets the Stars Hollow PTA by talking about being a teen mom. It's implied that Lorelai fit in better with the Chilton parents, iirc, but I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from that since it felt like a dropped plot point. Lorelai wasn't exactly friendly with other moms, after all, and her friendship with Sookie wasn't based on motherhood.

Lorelai's attitude towards other mothers - and other women in general - is one of my least favourite things about her. Hardly any women met her exacting standards. She looked down on the Stars Hollow mom's who seemed to be mostly stay at home mothers  - or at least put their families before their careers; while they were talking about how witty and hilarious she was she couldn't remember their names. She looked down on the Chilton mom's who were society wives and dedicated their time to charity events/fundraisers etc, even when they embraced her with open arms. And she looked down on Sherry and her career women friends for being so driven and intense, even though they were totally friendly and welcoming. (And playing baby games that Lorelai thought beneath her).

Apparently Lorelai's only acceptable standard was perfectly juggling motherhood and a successful career (preferably by yourself), but still acting like everything was no biggie and you didn't have to try at anything. About the only other mothers she accepted were Sookie (also managed a successful career and children without really taking time off) and Mrs Kim (for all intents and purposes a single mother, and yup - also did everything by herself between raising Lane, running her own business and presiding as matriach of the Kim clan).  Obviously Lorelai accomplishing everything on her own was impressive, but she was such a snob about other women's lifestyles. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[random chance]

43 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

About the only other mothers she accepted were Sookie (also managed a successful career and children without really taking time off) and Mrs Kim

And even then she thought she was better than them.  She tore into Sukie for missing an appointment when she fell asleep from being up all night with Davy, and she gave Mrs. Kim a lecture on how to be a better mother to Lane.  (Mrs. Kim gave it right back though - Mrs. Kim takes crap from nobody!  I love her.) 

I always wondered if Lorelai's weird snobbery was deliberate, as in "she's more like her mother than she thought," or just the unwelcome side effect of making her so quippy. 

[Melancholy]

I think Lorelai probably means well but it bothers me when she instantly defends Richard in this righteous breathy "I'm the reasonable one" way that she has after Emily just found out something legitimately INFURIATING about Richard. Emily had every right to her anger at Richard not telling her that he retired. For the first night of finding out that lie, I think Emily has a right to just voice her anger among families without some "The job was killing Dad. It was killing him" input. In an even more annoying example, Emily had every right to be furious at finding out that Richard was having clandestine lunches with Pennilyn Lott for decades. She really didn't need Lorelai coming up with the "He just didn't want to upset you" "It was just lunch" excuses on something that they're just finding out about. And then, in a pretty funny bit, Lorelai instantly starts describing Richard's lunches in a more negative light when Emily turned on Lorelai. "So you'd rather just be in denial?!" "I didn't have secret lunches! Dad did!"

I think a part of Lorelai WAS trying to be a peace-maker and defend Richard. I'm not knocking that. I also think a part of her likes to get in the middle of drama. I knock that instinct a little but not THAT much. However, I do think that Lorelai is largely driven to excuse away Emily's well-earned anger because Lorelai takes a default opinion that Emily is unreasonable and doesn't really have a right to all of her feelings. Now, THAT, is terrible and it's obnoxious to put phony righteous "Oh NOW Lorelai cares about Richard" cover over it. 

Like, Rory actually does have a special relationship with Richard and she has a true track record of doing everything she can to avoid conflict. However in both instances, I didn't see Rory rush to tell Emily why she was wrong to be angry.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Melancholy

[Anela]

2 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Lorelai's attitude towards other mothers - and other women in general - is one of my least favourite things about her. Hardly any women met her exacting standards. She looked down on the Stars Hollow mom's who seemed to be mostly stay at home mothers  - or at least put their families before their careers; while they were talking about how witty and hilarious she was she couldn't remember their names. She looked down on the Chilton mom's who were society wives and dedicated their time to charity events/fundraisers etc, even when they embraced her with open arms. And she looked down on Sherry and her career women friends for being so driven and intense, even though they were totally friendly and welcoming. (And playing baby games that Lorelai thought beneath her).

 

I could understand it with Sherry's friends: Sherry was with Christopher, and he wasn't with her at the time, because he went back to Sherry (or, the baby). Awkward. She could have just bowed out of it, though. 

I remember when Sherry so desperately wanted to spend time with Rory, like Christopher was suddenly such a big part of her life, that it was important that Sherry have a relationship with her, too, but she made sure to tell Lorelai that they didn't have to like each other. Something like that. 

Sherry did have one of my favourite moments, though: "I *wrote* it *down*!!" haha. She actually had that in common with Rory: everything organized. 

[JaggedLilPill]

I cut her slack with the SH moms. There are plenty of people I find annoying, which I tend to think Debbie, etc, was. Like Lorelai, people tell me I'm witty and have a sarcastic sense of humor. But just because they find me funny doesn't mean I'm obligated to like them. And I'm not the type to confront someone and point blank tell them I find them aggravating as hell. So, I have to fake it and hope they go away sometime soon. Now, I'm not a parent, but I imagine it can become mind numbingly boring to have to associate yourself with people you can't stand simply because your kid(s) are friends with their children. Especially today when a birthday party requires everyone in the class to get invited. *Shrug* YMMV though.

Lorelai probably faked it because she didn't want Rory excluded and the only time she actually said something to them that could be considered rude was when they were lambasting her after her speech at the high school. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by JaggedLilPill

[33kaitykaity]

The offhand way Lorelai finally after him struggling with moving the dollhouse tells him how to do it has always bugged me, like it was Luke's fault he didn't know the trick.  

[Spartan Girl]

The final two episodes of the show had Lorelei had her most infuriating regarding to Luke.  Her snotty demeanor when they were arguing about whether Rory should accept Logan's proposal -- which was really a metaphor for her and Luke -- made me want to smack her so hard, because she was acting like Luke was just a commitment phobe, completely ignoring the fact that she was the one that threw a grenade in the relationship by rebounding so soon with Christopher.  Any rational man wouldn't exactly consider her a sure thing after that.

Don't even get me started on how she was done with Luke just because he didn't respond to her supposed declaration of love.  Hey, Lorelai?  One drunk karaoke serenade doesn't count as a declaration of love!  But you know what would count?  If you went to the diner out of the blue, looked him right in the eye and said, "Luke, I love you.  I've always loved you.  The whole thing with Christopher was a huge mistake and I was too blind to see it.  I know I messed everything up, and I'm so sorry.  I know it can't be the same, but if you give me another chance, I swear I'll do everything I can to make it work.  I don't care if we ever get married, I just want to be with you."

THAT is a fucking declaration of love.

[junienmomo]

Did I miss something in seasons 5-6, or did Lorelai not tell Luke she loved him on-screen until the ultimatum? 'Cause if that's true, her comment in Vineyard Valentine is hypocritical out the wazoo.

[Melancholy]

For any Breaking Bad fans, Lorelai's running contempt for B&Bs when she was a small country inn manager/owner reminded of Hank Schrader's "They're not rocks. They're minerals" bit. Maybe technically accurate- but such a joke. The only thing that separated Lorelai's inn from a B&B was that less mingling between the guests and proprietor. Doesn't seem like such a big deal. 

For small hatable Lorelai-lines, I nominate:

LORELAI: That’s right! I’m sorry, but when my daughter comes home broken I get to hate the guy who broke her. That’s how it works. He’s gone, I win. You are wearing a cast and I get to hate him forever!

 30-something Lorelai gets all I WIN! about how troubled teen Jess fucked up enough that he was thrown out of an actually stable living environment and her good friend Luke had to deal with that failure and frustration of his good intentions. Disgusting. Really undermines any gravitas that Lorelai was SO BROKEN UP about Rory's little hairline fracture. I guess, it was just a little sacrifice so Lorelai could WIN. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Melancholy

[Viqutorious]

Did Lorelai have any female friends her age besides Sookie?

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Did Lorelai have any female friends her age besides Sookie?

Nope. She happily abandoned her Hartford friends, with good reason as mildly supported by the occasional invitee to an Emily event who saw nothing in Lorelai beyond scandal girl. 

Even though she worked for ten years at the Independence cleaning rooms, she didn't seem to retain any friends from that time either. My headcanon says that she believes the other workers were jealous of her, her work ethic and her special relationship with Mia. Sookie seems to be the only retained friend.

[TimetravellingBW]

6 hours ago, Melancholy said:

For any Breaking Bad fans, Lorelai's running contempt for B&Bs when she was a small country inn manager/owner reminded of Hank Schrader's "They're not rocks. They're minerals" bit. Maybe technically accurate- but such a joke. The only thing that separated Lorelai's inn from a B&B was that less mingling between the guests and proprietor. Doesn't seem like such a big deal. 

For small hatable Lorelai-lines, I nominate:

LORELAI: That’s right! I’m sorry, but when my daughter comes home broken I get to hate the guy who broke her. That’s how it works. He’s gone, I win. You are wearing a cast and I get to hate him forever!

 30-something Lorelai gets all I WIN! about how troubled teen Jess fucked up enough that he was thrown out of an actually stable living environment and her good friend Luke had to deal with that failure and frustration of his good intentions. Disgusting. Really undermines any gravitas that Lorelai was SO BROKEN UP about Rory's little hairline fracture. I guess, it was just a little sacrifice so Lorelai could WIN. 

Lorelai's disdain for B&B's was bizarre. Like her mocking that sweet, quirky woman in The Road Trip to Harvard. I'm sorry how is she any different from you and Stars Hollow resident's dealing with Inn's guests with your own brand of weirdness? Because you and your friends are just so delightfully quirky but anyone else in hospitality deserves to be treated rudely? 

I also loathed the "I get to hate him forever" line.  Lorelai was flat out acknowledging how unreasonable she was being. It was just a broken arm.  Most mothers could stay calm and realize sometimes accidents happen. Especially as Lorelai came in after the car accident when she knew Rory was ok. When I was a kid my friend got a head wound while over at my house and had to be taken to the emergency room; their mum certainly didn't vow to hate me or my parents FOREVER, she was totally relaxed, knew it was an accident and reassured my parents that she didn't blame them. And her kid was only about ten. (Granted we were in New Zealand where people are way more chilled about these things and kids taking risks). But still, Rory at the age of 17 hurts her arm and Lorelai in one night spins into hysterics, storms into the hospital and forces the staff to take extra important measures for her kid, almost destroys her friendship with Luke, was apparently too out of her mind to comprehend Luke being worried about Jess and gets Chris rushing down from another city to watch Rory sleep. God.

That's why it was so important for me that Luke didn't forgive Lorelai until after Jess came back. Luke was clearly hurt and broken up about Jess leaving, while Lorelai was happy he was gone. Her apologizing after she got the neglected kid driven out of town and back to his borderline-abusive home didn't mean anything, she didn't have to bend her pride to apologize when she was the one who "won". Her coming back to Luke to get his forgiveness after Jess was back, meant she had to accept the Jess situation. 

About the only positive (?) thing about her over-reaction is it gave me more understanding of Rory's reluctance to leave Dean for Jess at end of of S2/beginning of s3. Dating a guy your mother/best friend vowed life-long hatred for only a month or so ago, is hard. Obviously, Rory still shouldn't have strung Dean and Jess along the way she did, but it does justify why she was so scared to drop the adored Dean for the guy Lorelai viewed as Satan incarnate.  

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Nope. She happily abandoned her Hartford friends, with good reason as mildly supported by the occasional invitee to an Emily event who saw nothing in Lorelai beyond scandal girl. 

Even though she worked for ten years at the Independence cleaning rooms, she didn't seem to retain any friends from that time either. My headcanon says that she believes the other workers were jealous of her, her work ethic and her special relationship with Mia. Sookie seems to be the only retained friend.

I remember Mia commented that "the other maids hated you" about Lorelai first starting work and I couldn't help but think that it wasn't surprising that the other maids (who were probably from/in low income families) didn't like the sarcastic, judgmental Lorelai who looked down on most women she met, complained about her horrible, wealthy parents showering her with things and got special treatment from the owner. (That isn't discounting that Lorelai clearly did work very hard and didn't depend on family wealth while raising Rory, but I can imagine why the other maids resented her). 

Also to be fair, I don't think Lorelai spent the whole 10 years cleaning rooms with people she never mentions again. I imagine she only spent a year or two as a maid, and then got promoted to receptionist or doing admin or something, and kept climbing from there. (And admittedly if she was a hard-worker, I can see how she'd get moved into that).

Edited September 16, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[timimouse]

7 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Did Lorelai have any female friends her age besides Sookie?

I think it would've been difficult for her to have friends her own age as the ladies she worked with were probably older than her and the people that were her age at the time were out studying / partying/ being sixteen and not being mothers. I suspect she met Sookie later on and they're closer in age and Rory was older so she wasn't as tied down with motherhood.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

But still, Rory at the age of 17 hurts her arm and Lorelai in one night spins into hysterics, storms into the hospital and forces the staff to take extra important measures for her kid, almost destroys her friendship with Luke, was apparently too out of her mind to comprehend Luke being worried about Jess and gets Chris rushing down from another city to watch Rory sleep. God.

That's why it was so important for me that Luke didn't forgive Lorelai until after Jess came back. Luke was clearly hurt and broken up about Jess leaving, while Lorelai was happy he was gone. Her apologizing after she got the neglected kid driven out of town and back to his borderline-abusive home didn't mean anything, she didn't have to bend her pride to apologize when she was the one who "won". Her coming back to Luke to get his forgiveness after Jess was back, meant she had to accept the Jess situation. 

YES to all of this.  I always felt like Lorelai deserved every moment of "robot Luke" no matter how many Garfield-themed apologies she sent him.  Luke being upset was about way more than Lorelai throwing a hissy fit in the middle of the street, it was about her arrogantly believing she had the right to expect him to move hell and high water for her and her daughter, while not giving a rat's ass about his own family.  And her "apology" was nothing more than her trying to get Luke to brush it all under the rug.  She didn't apologize because she actually felt she had done anything wrong, she apologized because she didn't like Luke being upset with her.  Huge difference.

Ugh.  I hate that whole thing so, so much.

[random chance]

3 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

About the only positive (?) thing about her over-reaction is it gave me more understanding of Rory's reluctance to leave Dean for Jess at end of of S2/beginning of s3. Dating a guy your mother/best friend vowed life-long hatred for only a month or so ago, is hard.

Now that you mention it, Lorelai also continued to push Dean at her even after she knew that Rory was more interested in Jess and she was also giving Dean advice on how to get Rory back at his side.  If her own mother had done those things she would have ... well, run away I guess!

[Anela]

I like Lorelai, but I agree with some of the things posted here.

I play this on my tablet, with the netflix app, when I get in the shower, so that I don't have to listen to the radio (which is all crappy music or crappy political talk). One episode last night, was the one where Lane asks Rory to arrange a date for her. When they get into trouble, Lorelai tells Rory that she can't lie to another mum - that's breaking the code. Yet in the next episode, when they get tickets for The Bangles, Lorelai says that Lane is stupid, for telling her mother the truth - she encouraged her to lie that time. She also fed her things like pizza, and she might have provided a needed balance to her life with her mother, but she was still going against Mrs Kim's rules. 

I didn't like younger Jess, but I also hated the way she acted like Jess had run her daughter over, when most people would probably have done just what he did. 

[junienmomo]

22 minutes ago, Anela said:

I like Lorelai, but I agree with some of the things posted here.

I play this on my tablet, with the netflix app, when I get in the shower, so that I don't have to listen to the radio (which is all crappy music or crappy political talk). One episode last night, was the one where Lane asks Rory to arrange a date for her. When they get into trouble, Lorelai tells Rory that she can't lie to another mum - that's breaking the code. Yet in the next episode, when they get tickets for The Bangles, Lorelai says that Lane is stupid, for telling her mother the truth - she encouraged her to lie that time. She also fed her things like pizza, and she might have provided a needed balance to her life with her mother, but she was still going against Mrs Kim's rules. 

I didn't like younger Jess, but I also hated the way she acted like Jess had run her daughter over, when most people would probably have done just what he did. 

Great nitpick. That code disappeared fast.

I guess she did use it off-screen to tell Madeleine and Louise's parents about their running off. She certainly didn't use it for Luke (ersatz parental unit code?) and Jess, although she never lied to Luke about him as far as I can remember, she just didn't discuss stuff, the lie of omission. And forget about it when Lindsay's mom confronted Rory in the street. Maybe the code expires at age 18 and doesn't apply to boys. 

[TimetravellingBW]

Lorelai had a terrible double standard with how she treated other parent's children vs. how other parent's treated Rory. Lorelai was angry and defensive when Lindsay's mom called Rory out for sleeping with her daughter's husband, yet Lorelai herself attacked and yelled at Dean and Jess about their relationship with Rory. Dean for "breaking up" with Rory - that confrontation happened at his job in public; and Jess over "stealing" Rory's bracelet and not calling her to hang out. Plus there was the time Lorelai ambushed Jess in the street over him hurting Luke: Yes he had been a dick, but Lorelai's "Rory is so over you, she's moved on and is very happy" spiel (uh, lies by the way) was deliberately cruel and crazy out of line. Imagine how Lorelai would have reacted if Dean's parents had confronted Rory in public about what a horrible girl she was for throwing away a great guy like Dean. Or if Luke had called Rory a "little jerk" for leading Jess on.  Anything was fair game to defend her daughter but Lorelai didn't give other parents that same right. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[timimouse]

7 hours ago, Anela said:

I like Lorelai, but I agree with some of the things posted here.

I play this on my tablet, with the netflix app, when I get in the shower, so that I don't have to listen to the radio (which is all crappy music or crappy political talk). One episode last night, was the one where Lane asks Rory to arrange a date for her. When they get into trouble, Lorelai tells Rory that she can't lie to another mum - that's breaking the code. Yet in the next episode, when they get tickets for The Bangles, Lorelai says that Lane is stupid, for telling her mother the truth - she encouraged her to lie that time. She also fed her things like pizza, and she might have provided a needed balance to her life with her mother, but she was still going against Mrs Kim's rules. 

I didn't like younger Jess, but I also hated the way she acted like Jess had run her daughter over, when most people would probably have done just what he did. 

This is also really bothered me a lot. She accommodated Lane's secret life on numerous occasions.... even letting the band practice in their garage, yet she never encouraged Lane to try to be more open with her mother. I think it comes back to her obsession with being the cool mom.

[junienmomo]

11 hours ago, Anela said:

I like Lorelai, but I agree with some of the things posted here.

It's OK here to love Lorelai and hate some of the things she does. I'm exceedingly grateful for this thread because on too many venues I've criticized her for things already mentioned here, but got pushback along the lines of "if you don't absolutely love her and think she's perfect, why do you even watch the show" or "I don't want to hear that talk about her here."

The anti-hero is big in entertainment now because people have seen a lot of over-idealized characters. It's the reason shows with pretty bad criminal protagonists are successful. I don't see Lorelai as much of an anti-hero like, say, the guy from Breaking Bad, but she's no Donna Reed either. 

[JayInChicago]

And let's not forget her many homophobic quips...

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

It's OK here to love Lorelai and hate some of the things she does. I'm exceedingly grateful for this thread because on too many venues I've criticized her for things already mentioned here, but got pushback along the lines of "if you don't absolutely love her and think she's perfect, why do you even watch the show" or "I don't want to hear that talk about her here."

The anti-hero is big in entertainment now because people have seen a lot of over-idealized characters. It's the reason shows with pretty bad criminal protagonists are successful. I don't see Lorelai as much of an anti-hero like, say, the guy from Breaking Bad, but she's no Donna Reed either. 

Same here. I may be very critical of Lorelai on here, and I definitely don't approve of some of the things that she's said or done, but....she's still oddly enough one of my favourite characters, if not my absolute favourite. I can't even describe why, because on here, I've been complaining so much and realizing what a piece of work she is. But I do think this is attributed to the actress. Lauren Graham just has this warmth about her when she plays Lorelai, much like David Sutcliffe, that it's hard not to like her sometimes. If she was played by the actress originally up for the part (Anna/Jimmy's girlfriend), there's no possible way I would have lasted past season 2. Much like if someone else played Christopher and had less charm, I think I would be more in the universally hated category with his character. 

It's also the great thing about this particular forum in general. We all accept that these characters are very flawed and they're not perfect, but there's also a mutual acceptance about who people like and don't like. Trying not to get too off topic here, but there are sites that I go on where people are heavily in favour of one character and completely hate another and if you don't like said character (for example, Logan) or if you don't hate said character (Jess, Christopher), then you're wrong and an idiot and how can you possible have this opinion? 

I actually was on the reddit subforum yesterday and people were ganging up on this one poster who said that they weren't fond of Rory or Lorelai, basically telling this person that they couldn't possibly be a fan of Gilmore Girls if you don't like the two main characters, as if there's nobody else on the show to find interesting. 

6 minutes ago, JayInChicago said:

And let's not forget her many homophobic quips...

And this lies the issues with early 2000s shows in general. There were a lot more quips and jokes that they got away with. All shows from this era and before had these types of 'jokes' with homophobia, racism, etc. Her issues with therapy and psychiatrists in the later seasons, as well. 

[Melancholy]

I also love Lorelai even though I'm pretty critical of how she behaves. It's very hard to pick between Lorelai, Rory, Emily, and Luke for my favorite character on the show but that's absolutely my top tier. They all have moments that  really bother me. Emily, most of all and Luke, least of all- IMO. But that's also what make them interesting. But I also agree that Lorelai isn't interesting in this anti-hero Walter White sort of way- contrary to some controversial recent articles. She makes a TON of mistakes and she has character flaws of hypocrisy and self-righteousness and self-absorption but generally, I think she really has her heart in the right place.

[Viqutorious]

Marineg posted this link on the unpopular opinion thread. It fits perfectly in this thread. 

Lorelai Gilmore, Stealth Antihero

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/07/lorelai-gilmore-antihero

[ChlcGirl]

18 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Marineg posted this link on the unpopular opinion thread. It fits perfectly in this thread. 

Lorelai Gilmore, Stealth Antihero

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/07/lorelai-gilmore-antihero

That's a pretty great article, right there :)

[random chance]

That's a great article! I agree that Lauren Graham is the reason this show worked. Somehow the level of charm and energy was high enough so that it wasn't until much later that I'd realize things like, "hey ... she just insulted those little Cotillion rich kids to their face and they were laughing about it."

[huahaha]

53 minutes ago, random chance said:

That's a great article! I agree that Lauren Graham is the reason this show worked. Somehow the level of charm and energy was high enough so that it wasn't until much later that I'd realize things like, "hey ... she just insulted those little Cotillion rich kids to their face and they were laughing about it."

Yeah, it made me sad a while back to see ASP gushing that Sutton Foster was the best actress she'd ever worked with, how she was spoiled because Sutton could "do anything," etc. Nobody sells Palladino dialogue like Lauren Graham. Without her, the cancellation bear comes and gets you.

[shron17]

2 hours ago, huahaha said:

Yeah, it made me sad a while back to see ASP gushing that Sutton Foster was the best actress she'd ever worked with, how she was spoiled because Sutton could "do anything," etc. Nobody sells Palladino dialogue like Lauren Graham. Without her, the cancellation bear comes and gets you.

As I recall ASP also said Sutton Foster willingly did whatever was asked of her.  Maybe LG was a bit harder for ASP to work with as a writer/director.  Although I agree, she's very good with the dialogue.

[hippielamb]

57 minutes ago, shron17 said:

As I recall ASP also said Sutton Foster willingly did whatever was asked of her.  Maybe LG was a bit harder for ASP to work with as a writer/director.  Although I agree, she's very good with the dialogue.

I get the impression that Amy is someone who doesn't like input from the actors. Lauren has said a couple of times that she questioned a line (I've got the good kid) and also the lack of warmth between Lorelai and Luke when they were dating. Both times she was overruled.

I agree that Lauren brings a warmth to Lorelai. Seeing Lorelai's words on paper, she seems colder but when I watch a scene what she says doesn't bother me. 

[huahaha]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

As I recall ASP also said Sutton Foster willingly did whatever was asked of her.  Maybe LG was a bit harder for ASP to work with as a writer/director.  Although I agree, she's very good with the dialogue.

Sutton never asked for input, even when ASP put her in skimpy underwear. "Other actresses" requested negligees. (Sutton would've looked better in a negligee, too, by the way.) Amy also loved that Sutton could do all the dancing and singing scenes, plus play dramatic and comedic notes.

I'm not knocking Sutton Foster for a second. That is one talented woman. I just think Amy is completely unappreciative of Lauren Graham.

The numbers show the story. Amy has gotten a lot of chances and maxed out with 18 episodes without Lauren. She's had other good talent to work with like Sutton, Kelly Bishop, Parker Posey, and Lauren Ambrose. Meanwhile, Lauren just went 6 seasons on a major network even though the writing on the show was just OK.

(Somehow, I've segued into 10 things I hate about Amy Sherman-Palladino... and why I love Lauren Graham!)

Edited September 18, 2016 by huahaha

[random chance]

5 hours ago, huahaha said:

Yeah, it made me sad a while back to see ASP gushing that Sutton Foster was the best actress she'd ever worked with, how she was spoiled because Sutton could "do anything," etc. Nobody sells Palladino dialogue like Lauren Graham. Without her, the cancellation bear comes and gets you.

I think that's the main reason Bunheads didn't work - Sutton Foster was wrong for the part. 

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

As I recall ASP also said Sutton Foster willingly did whatever was asked of her.  Maybe LG was a bit harder for ASP to work with as a writer/director.  Although I agree, she's very good with the dialogue.

ASP needs someone to push back - that was my takeaway from her total creative control over Bunheads.

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

 (I've got the good kid)

One of the stupidest lines in the entire series. 

10 minutes ago, huahaha said:

The numbers show the story. Amy has gotten a lot of chances and maxed out with 18 episodes without Lauren. She's had other good talent to work with like Sutton, Kelly Bishop, Parker Posey, and Lauren Ambrose. Meanwhile, Lauren just went 6 seasons on a major network even though the writing on the show was just OK.

Yep.  I'm not knocking Sutton Foster either, I think she's fabulous - she was just the wrong person for that role. 

[Melancholy]

I adored Bunheads. I don't blame its cancellation on Sutton Foster at all. It was an unfair cancellation. Just pure bad luck of the draw. I don't remember if the series was adequately promoted or put on a good night but even if the network really supported it, it should have drawn a bigger audience because it was good. I also can't necessarily say that Lauren Graham is better than Sutton Foster. They're both so talented, charming, vivacious, beautiful, sparkling personalities and actresses. Lauren Graham is warmer, sure, but Sutton Foster is a legendary singer and dancer. It's hard to compare Michelle and Lorelai because Bunheads only got one season while GG got 7 seasons. A protagonists' likability can really be tested or brought out with a long-running season as the series develops far more storylines than the introductory first season storylines. That's certainly the case for Lorelai where I judge her based on how she comported herself or learned in the same relationships over seven years. Not the case for Michelle. Also, I get why everyone compares the two characters but there's a huge difference. Michelle was an authorial intended mess and whack job who was certainly talented but was introduced as a Loser On A Number of Fronts who was only starting to crawl her way to some kind of fulfilling, stable life because of some twist of different types of good and bad luck at the start of the season. Lorelai, however, was introduced as a Winner on A Number of Fronts- great mother with idealized relationship with her rather perfect daughter, respected and adored town member, a friend with tons of good life advice, talented manager of a beloved small but well-regarded inn. Michelle was a little disadvantaged right off the bat because she was openly presented as a very flawed woman. However, I thought there was a lot of potential in Michelle being openly presented as a mess compared to Lorelai who suffered from being presented as pretty perfect until you listen closely to what she says and does. 

That Vanity Fair article was good. I think there ARE some legitimate points to be mined comparing Lorelai to Don Draper. However, I did roll my eyes at Lorelai/Sookie = Walt/Jesse. Sookie and Lorelai were business partners to both of their enrichment with no one stiffing or betraying anyone. Lorelai was so indulgent of Sookie's costly cooking whims and prima donna airs that she even clashed with Michele and Luke over it. I don't think Lorelai ever lied to Sookie about anything that truly Sookie's business. But like, I think I only need the fingers on one hand to count times where Lorelai didn't handle her stress well and yelled at Sookie. And usually in those times, Lorelai was telling some home-truths about Sookie's huge flaws or Lorelai apologized afterwards or both. That can't be even compared to Walt's emotionally and financially abusive dynamic with Jesse that reached a logical climax/denouement when Walt sold Jesse into Nazi slavery and torture while informing Jesse that he watched as Jesse's girlfriend choked on her own vomit. 

Of all of the people in Lorelai's life, I think Sookie was treated among the best. I find little fault in how Lorelai treated Sookie. There's a vibe where Lorelai is clearly the Alpha because, from the Doylist perspective, she's the main character so her drama takes precedence, and from the Watsonian perspective, she's the more conventionally pretty, glamorous friend who seems like the boss in the business. This could have a bit of an uncomfortable vibe. Especially since while Lorelai may be able to boss Sookie, I do think that Sookie's cooking skills are more special and likely to develop a famous name to make their inns into Destination Inns. However even then, it's not often that I can definitively say that Lorelai really made herself the center of their conversations and didn't engage in Sookie's life. I could throw that accusation at Lorelai in terms of how she treated Luke as a friend. However, Lorelai was much more of a listener loathe to take any advantage of their friendship for Sookie.  I think the show was smart to put Sookie with Jackson so early on in the series. I never thought Lorelai was monopolizing any girl talk since Sookie was so settled and stable so quickly unlike Carrie Bradshaw with her own single friends who also needed to talk and get perspective but comparatively couldn't get a word in edgewise. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Melancholy