All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Tangerine]

The Gilmores and basically all of Stars Hollow's constant coddling of Rory was one of the things I really did not enjoy as the seasons progressed. It wasn't just Rory's actions herself that made her increasingly unlikeable, it was how the characters around her reacted to her. Whether or not Mitchum was objectively wrong with telling Rory she didn't have it was not the point. We saw that Rory, when she was first struggling at Chilton, managed to take the criticism to heart, buckle down and improve. And now the first time she gets criticism, she falls apart completely and nobody thought that it might be something that needed to be addressed. Lorelai's reaction to Rory going to counseling after she returned to Yale encompassed the frustration perfectly. It particularly bothered me because I was watching this season while I was in university and struggling to figure out what to do with my life and it was entirely the wrong message to be sending.

[Jfer082887]

I just finished season 4 and started season 5 and I hate Rory right now. I never noticed the first time I watched the series how selfish, entitled, and bratty she is in these seasons. It's downhill from here. I miss seasons 1-3 Rory:( Dean's hair is awful too!

[Jfer082887]

Also, when it comes to people criticizing Rory over her work and life decisions, she deals with the criticism worse every season and is more entitled as the show goes on. Her fault and also everyone around her who treats her like she can do no wrong. Cut to end of season 4 and season 5 beginning when Lorelei catches Rory and Dean together, she will NOT speak to her mother about it because Rory is in denial of how horrible the affair is and how it affects more than just her (selfish!). Rory Gilmore thinks she can do no wrong! She tries to justify her decision and make it sound like the right one. They were safe, it's with a guy she loves and that treats her right, dean's marriage doesn't count because they're both unhappy, he was Rory's boyfriend first. Yikes! Cut to the end of season 5, where Mitchum criticizes her as a journalist and she steals a yacht and commits a felony. What happened, Rory?! And there is no way she would have done this if she was with someone other than Logan.

As much as Rory is said to be a practical person with endless pro con lists behind major decisions, she sure acts impulsively.

-skips school to go to NY to see Jess (yay!)

-kisses Jess at Sookie's wedding (yay!)

-sleeps with Dean (boo!)

-steals a yacht (boo!)

She just gets progressively worse as the show goes on.

[Tangerine]

And Rory became progressively more judgmental and less tolerant of the quirky Stars Hollow's traditions too. When Cinnamon died in season 1, she was genuinely kind and supportive and was seen participating in a ton of town events while in the later seasons, we never got to see those relationships anymore.

[Eeksquire]

While the town's coddling/adoration of Rory was annoying, I don't think that her lowering tolerance for it in the lower seasons is out of line.  I think it's entirely normal for people to go away to college and gain a new perspective on their hometown (even if she didn't go far, geographically).  Plus, a lot of Stars Hollow's festivals and quirks ARE insane.

 

The problem that I have with it is not so much that Rory loses patience for the Quirk and Twee-ness of Stars Hollow, but that she increasingly indulges it in her grandparents - all those DAR functions and how seriously she took them springs immediately to mind.

[txhorns79]

The problem that I have with it is not so much that Rory loses patience for the Quirk and Twee-ness of Stars Hollow, but that she increasingly indulges it in her grandparents - all those DAR functions and how seriously she took them springs immediately to mind.

 

Wasn't she working for the DAR at the time?  Though I guess I would also ask, why wouldn't she take them seriously?  I'm not saying that lives depended on getting the event correct, but I don't understand what's wrong with her treating them as important?   

[Eeksquire]

I guess it's not so much taking the events seriously (although that wasn't part of her job - I believe she was a receptionist or secretary and volunteered to take over when some event was "in peril" - although "in peril" for Emily is not actuality he same as "in peril"), but she got DEEPLY involved in the gossip and drama of the DAR.  

[solotrek]

I guess it's not so much taking the events seriously (although that wasn't part of her job - I believe she was a receptionist or secretary and volunteered to take over when some event was "in peril" - although "in peril" for Emily is not actuality he same as "in peril"), but she got DEEPLY involved in the gossip and drama of the DAR.

 

I think it's one of those things where when you're deeply immersed everything seems important. That's why when she lived in Stars Hollow, their events were less quirky and she volunteered for everything. And when she worked for the DAR, their gossip and drama was important. Once you take a step back, you just start thinking "WTH?".

Edited November 20, 2014 by maculae

[junienmomo]

Rory was committed to the DAR after she'd worked for it for a while. She started out being a willing spy for her grandmother, but developed her own relationships at the end.

In Friday Night's Alright for Fighting, she argued with her grandmother over whether she should stay in the DAR. Rory insisted she was staying in, but Emily told her she couldn't because Emily was president. Rory replied that not only could she stay according to the rules, but she had more friends than Emily and didn't doubt her ability to remain if it came to a vote. That insistence came after she had presumably quit the job, and wasn't helping Emily as a spy. 

Emily was not pleased, because Rory had essentially taken over "her" DAR and cut Emily out. Both daughter and now granddaughter, that must have hurt.

[JayInChicago]

Rory is in denial of how horrible the affair is

 

Ok, I'm not saying her decision to sleep with Dean was right. It wasn't. But he flat out lied to her. He told her things were over between he and Lindsay, when we are shown that they weren't. In fact, we have more information about their relationship than Rory does. She trusted him to tell her the truth, and he didn't. 

Sure, it doesn't absolve her. But as always, she gets smeared as the marriage wrecker, but what heat does Dean get?  

Rory was incredibly naive at this point. And yes, she needed therapy, which oddly this show is against--, besides the fact that (he says lovingly) most of the characters needed at least a year of weekly sessions. lol

Edited November 20, 2014 by JayInChicago

[Jfer082887]

Don't worry. I hate Dean way more than Rory!

[txhorns79]

Sure, it doesn't absolve her. But as always, she gets smeared as the marriage wrecker, but what heat does Dean get?

 

Dean was humiliated when he and Lindsay publicly and dramatically fought with the entire town listening.  As to Rory, I think she believed what she wanted to believe as to Dean.  I agree that Dean was not entirely honest with her, but I have to think Rory realized the scenario she had going in her head (where she and "her" Dean ride off into the sunset, or whatever idea she had) was not entirely rooted in reality.  I think both Rory and Dean played a role in dissolving the marriage.  He deserves whatever crap he gets for that, just like Rory deserves whatever crap she gets. 

[dustylil]

Surely the fact that he was still wearing  his wedding ring should have been enough of a clue for Rory that there was still something of a marriage between Dean and Lindsay. Although as I recall, he was courteous enough to remove it before he and Rory were intimate ;)

To say nothing of the fact that  Lane -  presumably tuned in to Stars Hollow gossip - didn't mention to her any hint of trouble in the Forrester marriage when she and Rory  were catching up upon her return from Yale.

 

Rory may have been smeared as a marriage wrecker by viewers (myself included - but I was an equal opportunity condemner) but I am hard pressed to recollect her facing any punishment or opprobrium by anyone outside of Lindsay's  family.  Unless a lengthy and luxurious trip to Europe with her indulgent grandmother could be viewed as  a penalty. Lorelai was certainly saddened and disappointed but that didn't seem to be of any concern to Rory. Lane, for reasons that continue to elude me, thought the whole matter quite thrilling.  Other than that, it appeared that  no one else in Rory's world either knew or cared.

[JayInChicago]

yeah...i meant fans and show discussers not people on the show. 

 

i think we've discussed this before, and quite recently too. i fear i am repeating myself.

 

regardless, i like rory more or less and i don't like dean, so there's my bias

[txhorns79]

i think we've discussed this before, and quite recently too. i fear i am repeating myself.

 

Don't worry about it.  People have been discussing these topics and citing the exact same points, almost verbatim, for years.  It's the danger of liking a show that is no longer producing new episodes.  There are a finite amount of things to discuss, and you are going to end up returning to the same topics again and again. 

[solotrek]

Dean was humiliated when he and Lindsay publicly and dramatically fought with the entire town listening.  As to Rory, I think she believed what she wanted to believe as to Dean.  I agree that Dean was not entirely honest with her, but I have to think Rory realized the scenario she had going in her head (where she and "her" Dean ride off into the sunset, or whatever idea she had) was not entirely rooted in reality.  I think both Rory and Dean played a role in dissolving the marriage.  He deserves whatever crap he gets for that, just like Rory deserves whatever crap she gets. 

I'd throw more blame at Dean than Rory. Dean was lying to Rory, Lindsay, and himself. For the most part, Rory was lying to herself. Dean got every bit of humiliation he deserved. Rory got stuff from her mother and Lindsay's mother and in the end, still got a pretty extravagant good bye party for getting a job. I don't think anyone in the town really cared in the long run.

[Guest]

The way Seasons 6 and 7 went, the truly amazing part is that Lindsey's mom didn't come to the party and grovel at Rory's feet for ever calling her names. She would then beg for her forgiveness, which Rory would hesitantly grant. The town would cheer for Rory!

[txhorns79]

The way Seasons 6 and 7 went, the truly amazing part is that Lindsey's mom didn't come to the party and grovel at Rory's feet for ever calling her names. She would then beg for her forgiveness, which Rory would hesitantly grant. The town would cheer for Rory!

 

I absolutely love this, and I can visually see the entire scene, complete with a celebration of Rory's benevolence.  

[JayInChicago]

Lindsey's mother would prostrate herself on the ground in front of Queen Rory. 

~a film by Kirk~

[panthergirl13]

Just finished my bingewatch on Netflix and have posted in the "Nitpicking" thread, but wanted to throw my general comments here. I found the show enjoyable but it definitely had issues. 

 

Most of the ridiculous writing decisions have been covered by others (including the lack of PDA which is completely unrealistic in the NY/NJ/CT tristate area. Everyone mauls each other upon greeting around here, even if you've just seen the other person a week earlier. And I'm just talking about friends.)

 

My biggest beef with the show is the wide ranging of acting ability. When you put poor actors (Luke, Michele, Dean in particular) next to good ones (Lorelei, Emily, Sookie, Richard, Logan) it just highlights how bad they are. I'd throw Rory in there with the bad, but since Alexis Bleidel seemed to be helped by the better actors around her, she gets a pass.

 

I wanted to FF through every scene with Michele. Absolutely painful to watch.

 

Fun to see all the familiar faces thought: Jon Hamm, Krysten Ritter, even Melissa McCarthy's real-life husband as a pall bearer during the Inn-owner's funeral. I wonder if they were already together or if they met on GG?

 

(and hey... did they name Christopher's daughter after the show??)

[Kohola3]

(and hey... did they name Christopher's daughter after the show??)

 

Never thought of that but I think it was pretty much universally agreed that it was just about the stupidest nickname possible.  There were times that I felt ASP was thinking "what can I do to mock and annoy the fans?"......

[Taryn74]

There were times that I felt ASP was thinking "what can I do to mock and annoy the fans?"......

 

 

Lord, yes.  There were plenty of times I had the phrase "Squee on this, bitches" running through my head while watching the latter seasons.

[panthergirl13]

Now that I've finished my GG bingewatch, my daughter has convinced me to watch Bunheads. I'm about 8 episodes in, but I don't think I can deal with Sutton Foster for another hot second. For one thing, I keep seeing Lauren Graham delivering the dialogue. But mostly it's that "playing to the back row" that is exhausting.

 

AND THIS IS WHY BROADWAY ACTORS DON'T ALWAYS TRANSLATE TO TELEVISION.

 

(and is ASP really obsessed with tall people or what? The word 'tall' is mentioned multiple times on GG re Dean, Richard, Lorelei and Rory, and same with SF's character on BHs)

[lulu1960]

I tried to like Bunheads and I watched all the episodes but it was too  much like  a poor version of GG 2.0

[truebluesmoky]

Why isn't there more outrage that Jackson lied to Sookie about the vasectomy? She didn't want more kids! She had unprotected sex with him only because she thought he couldn't impregnate her. I mean, she obviously shouldn't have made the appointment for him and bullied him into a medical procedure he didn't want, but when he didn't go through with it, he had a responsibility to tell her before they had sex again. I know she quickly got excited about another baby after finding out she was pregnant, but Jackson made a serious mistake here... At best, he shattered the fundamental trust needed for a marriage. At worst, it could be suggested that sex under false assurances of birth control is something akin to assault. I am surprised they went there and that there isn't more outrage!

Edited December 3, 2014 by truebluesmoky

[Kohola3]

Did this coincide with Melissa McCarthy's pregnancy and ASP did a really crappy job of writing it in?  It really was utterly tasteless.

[scarynikki12]

It did coincide with Melissa's pregnancy but I wish they'd gone with a failed vasectomy rather than Jackson lying to Sookie all those months.  Vasectomies do fail and this happening would allow there to be no one to blame while also having another baby storyline for Sookie. 

[dustylil]

truebluesmoky there was a fair bit of outrage about the storyline on  the TWOP boards both when the episode first aired and in later discussions of Sookie and Jackson and the GG men in general. I know I contributed my share of it.

 

scarynikki12, I agree about wishing the showrunners had gone a failed vasectomy route. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they took the approach they did. That level of marital deception by one of the series' likeable guys in what was one of its happiest marriages  was egregious, particularly given that Sookie had been put on bed rest for her second pregnancy. How could anyone be sure a third pregnancy would not even be more problematic? Less significant but also showing his duplicity, Jackson used the vasectomy as a bargaining chip with Sookie  in family disputes like whether or not to get the children baptized.

 

As well, I never thought he seemed all that apologetic about what he had done. You would thought he had forgotten her birthday rather than something life altering if not life threatening. Cynic that I am, I recall thinking at the time, well he is getting closer to his  wish for four children in four years.

 

[junienmomo]

Wow, i'd never thought about the Jackson lie like that, it's so true.

The more I think about Season 5, the worse it gets. Someone here once mentioned the soap-opera-y nature of S5, and the vasectomy lie is a perfect example.

 

Lately, I've been wondering about the L&L relationship in S5. You have two people who are successful professionals, self-starter entrepreneurs, who really know how to get their jobs done. They've known each other on a near-daily basis for eight years, yet ASP felt the need to write them as if they had none of those traits when it came to their relationship.

Were the writers really trying to convince audiences that there would be no sex until they had a formal date? How many mid-30's people do you know who would wait seven weeks, then think they need a date first? Mind-boggling.

[Guest]

I couldn't stand the vasectomy plot - from Sookie forcing Jackson into it to the "fact" that he was taken down for the operation against his will to the part where it was scheduled when she went into spontaneous labor to it turning out he lied about it.  Why they couldn't just have said he didn't go for the follow-up test he was supposed to and that's how she got pregnant. Still have it be his fault - she thought he went X day, but he was busy tending his zucchinis (in a non-euphemism way) and forgot about the appointment. He assumed all went well with the surgery so he didn't reschedule or tell her since she was such a shrill harpie by that point.  

 

Much more believable.   

Edited December 5, 2014 by yeswedo
removed duplicate text

[Taryn74]

That whole thing (both Sookie insisting on him getting a V and him lying about it) was so ridiculous, I pretend it just didn't exist and move on.

[JennDear77]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this question but here goes.

Why are there so many people on Gilmore Girls also on Mad Men? John Hamm/Don Draper played Lorelei's boring date in one episode. Danny Strong/Danny Siegal plays Doyle in several seasons. Those are the first big two that come to mind. Then there are a ton of little tiny parts that are filled with people from Mad Men. Rory's freshman roommate's boyfriend Klee is played by the same guy who goes on a bad date with Peggy Olsen in season 1 of MM. I just noticed the red head beatnik who takes her sweater off in season 1 of MM has a few lines in "Afterboom", she has Asher Fleming sign a book for her. Even Rory Gilmore/Alexis Bledel played depressed Beth in season 6(?) of Mad Men.

Anyone know why so many people have been on the two shows?

[junienmomo]

It's always a question of knowing the right people. For casting, it's generally the Casting Team, the showrunners, producers or someone else with strong influence.

For GG vs MadMen, there are no casting team members in common, so it's most likely producers who drove those decisions.

These guys don't want to take risks, so they'd rather work with known entities. Helps keep the profit margins stable.

Parenthood also has some overlap with Mad Men, and we know Parenthood got at least Lauren Graham.

[txhorns79]

Anyone know why so many people have been on the two shows?

 

I think it is mostly coincidence in terms of Gilmore Girls.  Alexis Bledel and Danny Strong were known entities (so perhaps they were sought out for their roles), but I would guess the other people being cast likely just went through a normal audition process.  I think Desperate Housewives also had a lot of overlap, in terms of its casting, with Mad Men. 

[panthergirl13]

I don't think it's a coincidence. Lesli Linka Glatter directed at least one episode of GG, and she directed a ton of Mad Men episodes. So there's obviously some overlap in terms of who knows whom with both shows.

[txhorns79]

I don't think it's a coincidence. Lesli Linka Glatter directed at least one episode of GG, and she directed a ton of Mad Men episodes. So there's obviously some overlap in terms of who knows whom with both shows.

 

At least for Jon Hamm, I think in the Mad Men DVDs, he stated he went through the normal audition process to get cast as Don Draper (i.e. his agent sent him out for the role, etc.)  I vaguely recall him mentioning that he went through a number of callbacks and was not sure until the very end that he would even be cast.  I can't speak as to the people who had bit parts on both shows, but you are entirely right in that it is possible that someone like Alexis Bledel or Danny Strong were cast because of recommendations from people who had directed on both shows.  

[Guest]

Alexis Bledel is married to the actor who plays Pete Campbell, but that is recent. I don't know if they met shooting Mad Men or if she was already involved with him when she played her role.

[solotrek]

I don't know if they met shooting Mad Men or if she was already involved with him when she played her role.

 

I read that they met shooting Mad Men. Maybe they cast Alexis because someone wanted to play matchmaker.

[JennDear77]

I read that they met shooting Mad Men. Maybe they cast Alexis because someone wanted to play matchmaker.

I've also read they met on Mad Men. It's always jarring for me to watch that episode of MM where Pete is daydreaming about her coming to his office in a fur coat and panties, I'm like "RORY GILMORE GET SOME CLOTHES ON!"

[junienmomo]

Pondering Season 7, I noticed that Lorelai seemed to be subdued in her behavior, Part of the feeling is generated by makeup, the first half of the season she seems to wear very little, much less than the first four seasons.

Then I kinda got the idea that Lorelai didn't do anything on her own initiative during most of S7. She did do things for Chris, Rory and sometimes Emily, but nothing to speak of with respect to her career or SH.

Am I wrong here?

She did recover after the divorce, but the sparkling leader of the community and the inn was gone.

[BC Mama]

That whole thing (both Sookie insisting on him getting a V and him lying about it) was so ridiculous, I pretend it just didn't exist and move on.

ed

Yes! One of my least favourite plots. I had a pretty rough delivery of our second born last week and screamed at my husband that he was getting a vasectomy but no giant nurses or orderlies magically appeared to drag him away. And, no ethical medical professional would perform an elective surgery with an unwilling patient.

[Taryn74]

She did recover after the divorce, but the sparkling leader of the community and the inn was gone.

 

 

You're not wrong.  In fact, I think the Lorelai that we knew was gone from the moment she walked away from Luke in the episode with the winter carnival -- I think they had just agreed to postpone the wedding again because of April.  That scene stands out in my mind even though I've only seen it a couple of times, because it was like the inner spark just flickered and died and she never got it back.

 

That's why I can't tolerate even Season 7, though God bless him the new guy tried.

[moonb]

Yeah, I remember reading (perhaps on TWoP?)  about season 7 pod Lorelai being an intentional part of the storyline. The one  thing she really wanted - marriage to Luke - she actively pushed for and tried to make work for both of them, and it just crashed and burned so badly that it led to her rethinking everything about her life, and wondering if it all really was just a rebellion against her parents.  So she tried things their way for a while, married Christopher, and of course that wasn't right either.  I don't know if series-end Lorelai was meant to be the sadder and wiser version of younger, vibrant sparkly Lorelai. I hope that's what they were going for, though.

Edited December 8, 2014 by moonb

[Persnickety1]

I just discovered this show a few weeks ago when, out of sheer boredom and lots of bedrest with a virus, I wanted to just cue up a series with a lot of seasons on Netflix and settle in.

 

Now I'm completely hooked on it.

 

Leave it to me to "discover" a series 10 years or more after it premiered.

 

And after it's been cancelled, of course.  

 

On the upside, Mini Persnickety loves it, too, and says Lorelei and Rory remind her of us.  I'm still trying to decide if that's a good thing.  

Edited December 13, 2014 by Persnickety1

[junienmomo]

I don't know if series-end Lorelai was meant to be the sadder and wiser version of younger, vibrant sparkly Lorelai. I hope that's what they were going for, though.

 

I hope it wasn't. There really was another season of good content for everyone except maybe Rory. Lorelai deserves to be wiser, but not sadder. I would prefer to see her get her mojo back with respect to career. 

There was also plenty of story left with Emily and Lorelai. Lane I could see coming back as a real human, not a voiceless Zach and baby caretaker. Luke needed to come to terms with Taylor.

Anybody with good ideas for Rory? Can't see her coming back to SH, can't see the show playing anywhere else.

Now I'm completely hooked on it.

 

 

Persnickety, I got hooked when I found it in June of this year on Amazon prime video. Was obsessed all summer, and fall, and ... OK, still am. 

 

Never read fanfiction until GG. Love what's out there, though. You might give it a try.

[moonb]

I hope it wasn't. There really was another season of good content for everyone except maybe Rory. Lorelai deserves to be wiser, but not sadder. I would prefer to see her get her mojo back with respect to career.

 

True. Maybe "sadder" isn't the word - maybe for Lorelai it's less lonely/isolated? It occurred to me when rewatching that early Lorelai, in spite of her extroversion and her best friends Sookie and Rory, doesn't really let other people in, to say the least. She was such a young mom that she doesn't have peers doing the same thing. One friend is her daughter, who will grow up and leave home. Luke is a constant, but there's the tension with dating him and the later fallout. She dates but doesn't include men in her life or really fall for them. By the end of the series, it seems like Lorelai has a better, more real support network - though I can forgive for not fully trusting her parents.

 

The Virtual Gilmore fantic had a really interesting Rory storyline, but I don't know how I feel about it. And of course Lane deserved another season.

[junienmomo]

Maybe "sadder" isn't the word - maybe for Lorelai it's less lonely/isolated? It occurred to me when rewatching that early Lorelai, in spite of her extroversion and her best friends Sookie and Rory, doesn't really let other people in, to say the least.

 

Lonely or isolated does seem to fit better. Reading your words, it occurred to me that Lorelai was a "fixer" similar to Luke. She was constantly friendship-mothering Rory's friends as well as taking care of Babette and other townies (Pasquale comes to mind - hilarious).

She fixes hearts, Luke fixes houses.

Lorelai would have benefited from a Jess the way Luke had him. Having someone in your life who tells you the truth no matter what can be very helpful. Also painful when it's someone as messed up as Jess was. Not all truth-tellers get it right.

[Tangerine]

This is just a random stray thought that I had. For as rebellious as Lorelai was in her youth, I found it really interesting that she was in a very serious relationship with a boy that her parents loved and approved of. The way that Lorelai is described in her youth, I could have seen her more with a Jess-type than Christopher, who the Gilmores adored.

[dustylil]

I  thought the show portrayed adolescent rebellion in a most peculiar manner. The fractious teenage Lorelai was an excellent student on track to attend a prestigious college. Her  love interest was a boy from the  social circle in which she was raised,  the son of close friends of her parents. No evidence of promiscuity, truancy, heavy drug or liquor use, or unsuitable friends with her. Jess, the other main adolescent insubordinate may have disliked the strictures of Stars Hollow High but chose to work at Walmart, not exactly a bastion of free spiritedness. Or great pay, for that matter, that might have made  his embrace  of the corporate world more understandable.

[txhorns79]

No evidence of promiscuity, truancy, heavy drug or liquor use, or unsuitable friends with her.

 

Given that Rory was created in part because she and Christopher were drinking at her house in the afternoon, I'm not really sure what could be said about Lorelai's alcohol intake at the time.  Also, given how little we know of Lorelai's life prior to getting pregnant, I'm not really sure "no evidence of..." really means anything in terms of how Lorelai may or may not have been prior to her having gotten pregnant.