All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[chessiegal]

8 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Exactly.

That first scene with Emily coloured my view of her. Your kid asks for help, you help her. Period. You don't attach conditions on the help, even if you are estranged. Surely Emily could have understood how difficult it must have been for Lorelai to ask for their help. I loved that Richard was ready to write her a cheque, no questions asked. He almost always defers to Emily on Lorelai related business but I love that his initial fatherly reaction was to help his daughter.

I think Emily especially was hurt and insulted by Lorelai not accepting help from her and Richard. Money is how Emily shows love, (like most of the rich characters on this show). Take away that and it's hard for her to show her feelings. Richard, I think, was willing to let Lorelai dictate the terms. If she didn't want a relationship with him, he wasn't going to force the issue. I wish Emily had reached out, if only for a casual lunch now and then. But then that would take away from the basic premise of the show. 

Yes, the Friday night dinners were too integral to the story not to have them or something similar. Otherwise it would have been Lorelai and Rory. I think the 3 generations is such an important part of the story. Plus Kelly Bishop just knocks the Emily character out of the park so many times, it really makes the show for me. My 2 favorite episodes, which happened back to back, are "Scene in a Mall" and "The Reigning Lorelai". Kelly just nails it in both episodes. 

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Exactly.

That first scene with Emily coloured my view of her. Your kid asks for help, you help her. Period. You don't attach conditions on the help, even if you are estranged. Surely Emily could have understood how difficult it must have been for Lorelai to ask for their help. I loved that Richard was ready to write her a cheque, no questions asked. He almost always defers to Emily on Lorelai related business but I love that his initial fatherly reaction was to help his daughter.

I think Emily especially was hurt and insulted by Lorelai not accepting help from her and Richard. Money is how Emily shows love, (like most of the rich characters on this show). Take away that and it's hard for her to show her feelings. Richard, I think, was willing to let Lorelai dictate the terms. If she didn't want a relationship with him, he wasn't going to force the issue. I wish Emily had reached out, if only for a casual lunch now and then. But then that would take away from the basic premise of the show. 

I didn't see Richard reaching for the checkbook as a fatherly reaction to help his daughter at all. My impression was that he was thinking, "Oh, Lorelai wants money, let's get this over with." But that's not a bad thing. That's just Richard doing business. It was his character. As for Emily attaching conditions, I thought she was using the loan as an excuse to see her daughter and granddaughter again (witness her anger when Lorelai repaid the loan). Emily and Richard had mostly given up on having a relationship with Lorelai and Rory, because they didn't think Lorelai wanted a relationship with them. Lorelai said they used to come visit them at the inn and stuff, but I have a feeling Lorelai wasn't very welcoming to them.

Richard and Emily could be horrible parents but at the same time Lorelai wasn't always the greatest daughter. None of them was the villain of the piece. 

[Viqutorious]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

That first scene with Emily coloured my view of her. Your kid asks for help, you help her. Period. You don't attach conditions on the help, even if you are estranged. Surely Emily could have understood how difficult it must have been for Lorelai to ask for their help. I loved that Richard was ready to write her a cheque, no questions asked. He almost always defers to Emily on Lorelai related business but I love that his initial fatherly reaction was to help his daughter.

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose. I thought Lorelai was selfish to ask for help, she had no plans to pay for private school, she knew her parents would bail her out. I don't think just because your grown kids ask for help, you are required to help. They.are.adults. 

i thought they asked for little in return.

They all benefited from the relationship they formed over Friday night dinners. Imagine Richards funeral if Rory never got to know him because her mom was too immature to allow them to have a relationship until she was forced to do so.

[SparedTurkey]

Quote

2 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

That first scene with Emily coloured my view of her. Your kid asks for help, you help her. Period. You don't attach conditions on the help, even if you are estranged. Surely Emily could have understood how difficult it must have been for Lorelai to ask for their help. I loved that Richard was ready to write her a cheque, no questions asked. He almost always defers to Emily on Lorelai related business but I love that his initial fatherly reaction was to help his daughter.

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose. I thought Lorelai was selfish to ask for help, she had no plans to pay for private school, she knew her parents would bail her out. I don't think just because your grown kids ask for help, you are required to help. They.are.adults. 

 

I don't think Emily or Richard were obliged to help Lorelai pay for Chilton either. But they could have said no. They didn't. Aside from the money, and Richard letting Lorelai sneak out of the window they didn't match her halfway. Sure if I were Lorelai I wouldn't have gone back to them. But then, there would be no show.

[Kohola3]

Quote

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose.

Except that she didn't.  There were mentions of spending holidays at the elder Gilmores.  If they had been warm and welcoming grandparents I would think Rory, as she got older, would have been questioned why they didn't spend more time together.  In my mind the girls were treated like any other unrelated guests and thus the elders did not invite a more intimate relationship.  Being given an apple tart (or chocolate box), wished a happy holiday, and escorted out the door wouldn't make me want to hang around and get better acquainted.

[txhorns79]

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Except that she didn't.  There were mentions of spending holidays at the elder Gilmores.  If they had been warm and welcoming grandparents I would think Rory, as she got older, would have been questioned why they didn't spend more time together.  In my mind the girls were treated like any other unrelated guests and thus the elders did not invite a more intimate relationship.  Being given an apple tart (or chocolate box), wished a happy holiday, and escorted out the door wouldn't make me want to hang around and get better acquainted.

I think a lot of the reason they didn't spend more time together was because Lorelai made it very clear to them she didn't want them in her life.  Kids pick up on those signals, and I'm sure Rory heard and saw enough from her mother to realize that asking for more time with her grandparents would not go over well, even if Richard and Emily were loving and sweet to Rory.  This isn't to say that Emily and Richard couldn't have taken more steps to reconcile with their daughter, but I can understand that after being so thoroughly rejected, they did not want to revisit that situation.         

[Guest]

10 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose. I thought Lorelai was selfish to ask for help, she had no plans to pay for private school, she knew her parents would bail her out. I don't think just because your grown kids ask for help, you are required to help. They.are.adults. 

i thought they asked for little in return.

They all benefited from the relationship they formed over Friday night dinners. Imagine Richards funeral if Rory never got to know him because her mom was too immature to allow them to have a relationship until she was forced to do so.

All of this.  Also, Lorelai didn't ask them for help with a need. She asked for help with a want.  If she had come to them truly destitute and was asking for money to keep her and Rory off the street or from starving, they still wouldn't be obligated to help her, but a stronger argument could be made that they were obligated. But for an expensive school?  And the only condition being one dinner a week to allow them to get to know the child they were now partially supporting is extremely reasonable.

[Viqutorious]

18 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Quote

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose.

Except that she didn't.  There were mentions of spending holidays at the elder Gilmores.  If they had been warm and welcoming grandparents I would think Rory, as she got older, would have been questioned why they didn't spend more time together.  In my mind the girls were treated like any other unrelated guests and thus the elders did not invite a more intimate relationship.  Being given an apple tart (or chocolate box), wished a happy holiday, and escorted out the door wouldn't make me want to hang around and get better acquainted.

They saw her only on special occasions. I personally don't view that as a relationship, especially when you only live 30 miles apart.

 The episode when Richard has his first health scare Rory said, I'm just getting to know him."  (Not an exact quote)  Lorelai has also apologized to Rory for preventing a relationship develop with her grandparents, therefore it's not something that is really in question.

One of my favorite episodes is Kill me now, it shows Rory and Richard getting to know each other and is a very touching episode in many ways.

[hippielamb]

On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 9:54 PM, chessiegal said:

Yes, the Friday night dinners were too integral to the story not to have them or something similar. Otherwise it would have been Lorelai and Rory. I think the 3 generations is such an important part of the story. Plus Kelly Bishop just knocks the Emily character out of the park so many times, it really makes the show for me. My 2 favorite episodes, which happened back to back, are "Scene in a Mall" and "The Reigning Lorelai". Kelly just nails it in both episodes. 

I have issues with Emily but Kelly is awesome. I love her acting in both those episodes. Something about Emily being a little unhinged endears her to me. Maybe because I can see shades of Lorelai in her actions. 

 

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 0:20 AM, Minneapple said:

I didn't see Richard reaching for the checkbook as a fatherly reaction to help his daughter at all. My impression was that he was thinking, "Oh, Lorelai wants money, let's get this over with." But that's not a bad thing. That's just Richard doing business. It was his character. As for Emily attaching conditions, I thought she was using the loan as an excuse to see her daughter and granddaughter again (witness her anger when Lorelai repaid the loan). Emily and Richard had mostly given up on having a relationship with Lorelai and Rory, because they didn't think Lorelai wanted a relationship with them. Lorelai said they used to come visit them at the inn and stuff, but I have a feeling Lorelai wasn't very welcoming to them.

Richard and Emily could be horrible parents but at the same time Lorelai wasn't always the greatest daughter. None of them was the villain of the piece. 

I like Richard a lot. There was no warmth between any of the Gilmores but it struck me how Richard was willing to help Lorelai and Rory because she asked for it. That scene was our introduction to the Gilmores. I liked Richard immediately, Emily not so much. 

 

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 0:27 AM, CheeseBurgh said:

I disagree. Lorelai kept their granddaughter out of their lives by choice and on purpose. I thought Lorelai was selfish to ask for help, she had no plans to pay for private school, she knew her parents would bail her out. I don't think just because your grown kids ask for help, you are required to help. They.are.adults. 

i thought they asked for little in return.

They all benefited from the relationship they formed over Friday night dinners. Imagine Richards funeral if Rory never got to know him because her mom was too immature to allow them to have a relationship until she was forced to do so.

You don't have to help them. Once they reach adulthood you're not required to pay for university or anything else. As we got to know Emily, we saw that she very much does want to help both of her girls. She's constantly trying to improve their lives. Putting the Friday night dinners as a condition of the loan was a necessary plot device. But I still don't like it. It sets Emily up in an adversarial role that could have easily been avoided if she helped Lorelai without the strings. Also, it's a bummer that Lorelai expected some kind of stipulation, that's why she was hesitant to go to them in the first place. The problem is looking at this as a real life scenario versus a plot necessity for the show to be believable.

Oh, I agree that ultimately it led to a better relationship for all the Gilmores. Rory and Richard's closeness is 2nd only to Lorelai and Rory in my affection. At that point, they had virtually no relationship. It ended up positively. But I still think Emily was wrong to put conditions on helping her daughter. I can't imagine ever doing that to either of my kids. And as SparedTurkey pointed out, the Gilmores didn't seem to make a real effort to get to know Rory before this, again a plot device.  

[Frelling Tralk]

On 15/11/2016 at 4:25 PM, deaja said:

All of this.  Also, Lorelai didn't ask them for help with a need. She asked for help with a want.  If she had come to them truly destitute and was asking for money to keep her and Rory off the street or from starving, they still wouldn't be obligated to help her, but a stronger argument could be made that they were obligated. But for an expensive school?  And the only condition being one dinner a week to allow them to get to know the child they were now partially supporting is extremely reasonable.

I agree, I don't see it as being controlling for Emily to request a single evening a week to get to know their granddaughter, as well as weekly phone calls on her progress at Chilton. It always seemed entirely reasonable to me for Emily to seize on the opportunity to re-establish contact with her only daughter and granddaughter, and really it wasn't a big ask when they were going to be funding her education.

Things would have gone very differently if Richard had just written Lorelai the cheque, she thanked them, and walked out the door. I can see them then continuing to be polite to one another at the formal holiday gatherings, but not much else beyond that. Emily made the bigger gesture in wanting to put the estrangement behind them and actually get to know her granddaughter properly, while Richard didn't have a lot of interest in that in the beginning.

[Frelling Tralk]

On 16/11/2016 at 10:21 PM, hippielamb said:

And as SparedTurkey pointed out, the Gilmores didn't seem to make a real effort to get to know Rory before this, again a plot device.  

I don't know, I thought the implication was that Lorelai never wanted Rory to have too much contact with her parents and the world that she came from, so it would have been hard for them to force themselves into Rory's life under those circumstances. They did see them once a year at Easter and Christmas parties, but its hard to really get to know a child in a formal setting like that, especially with many other guests around to entertain as well. I'd imagine that young Rory stuck to Lorelai's side like glue for the duration, and there wasn't time for much more than a few polite pleasantries. (Christopher's parents were jerks to Rory of course,  but we did see in that meeting how overwhelmed and lost for words she was, so I'd imagine that it was much the same at the Gilmore parties, with a shy Rory struggling to think of much to say to these grandparents that she barely knew)

Whereas FND were a much more intimate setting for proper conversations and getting to know Rory properly, and those only happened because of Emily's efforts. The same with Richard and Rory's bonding, that only happened because of Emily insisting on Richard spending the day at the club getting to know his granddaughter properly, so it seemed like she was more than ready to make the most of it as soon as she felt that Lorelai could no longer stand in their way. And Lorelai was shown to be visibly uncomfortable with it when Rory actually had a good time at Richard's golf club, so I can't picture her ever voluntarily encouraging Rory to spend time with her grandparents in the beginning, not if it wasn't for the Chilton loan forcing the issue

Edited November 22, 2016 by Frelling Tralk

[hippielamb]

18 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I don't know, I thought the implication was that Lorelai never wanted Rory to have too much contact with her parents and the world that she came from, so it would have been hard for them to force themselves into Rory's life under those circumstances. They did see them once a year at Easter and Christmas parties, but its hard to really get to know a child in a formal setting like that, especially with many other guests around to entertain as well. I'd imagine that young Rory stuck to Lorelai's side like glue for the duration, and there wasn't time for much more than a few polite pleasantries. (Christopher's parents were jerks to Rory of course,  but we did see in that meeting how overwhelmed and lost for words she was, so I'd imagine that it was much the same at the Gilmore parties, with a shy Rory struggling to think of much to say to these grandparents that she barely knew)

Whereas FND were a much more intimate setting for proper conversations and getting to know Rory properly, and those only happened because of Emily's efforts. The same with Richard and Rory's bonding, that only happened because of Emily insisting on Richard spending the day at the club getting to know his granddaughter properly, so it seemed like she was more than ready to make the most of it as soon as she felt that Lorelai could no longer stand in their way. And Lorelai was shown to be visibly uncomfortable with it when Rory actually had a good time at Richard's golf club, so I can't picture her ever voluntarily encouraging Rory to spend time with her grandparents in the beginning, not if it wasn't for the Chilton loan forcing the issue

It's strange that Emily never tried to know Rory better during those 15 years before the pilot. I get that she was hurt and insulted, but she could have done more. Maybe if she had shown Lorelai that she wanted to be part of their lives, without trying to control everything then the Friday night dinners wouldn't have been a requirement. It would have been difficult, Lorelai was headstrong and enjoying her first taste of independence but I doubt their relationship would have been as cold as it was in the pilot. They never came to her house until Rory's birthday party, and Lorelai never invited them. They didn't know Lorelai's circle of wacky friends, or that Rory took ballet and talked to a fairy tree as a child. They missed so much.

[ChlcGirl]

I'm not sure that the failure to get to know Rory was on Emily and Richards part.  Just going by things said on the show, Lorelai has stated over and over that she cut them out of her life when she left.  That to me says that she absolutely did not welcome or invite them into Rory's life apart from visits at Easter and Christmas.  She mentioned to Rory that when she cut them out, she never considered that Rory might actually want a relationship wirh them. After Lorelai paid back the loan she said to Emily that things would go back to normal, which Emily said consisted of her leaving Lorelai emergency messages until she returned the call, hemming around awkwardly before putting Rory on the phone, even when she was too young to speak on the phone. Seems as if Lorelai made herself very clear on what their role in her life was to be (basically non-existent).  And it wasn't as it Rory had the gumption to pursue a relationship that Lor didn't sanction.

Emily and Richard inserting themselves into their lives without invitation would have most definitely been unwelcome, and would have been one more indication of them "not respecting" Lorelai's choices.  That's why I don't fault Emily for establishing the weekly dinners when she had the chance. I highly doubt just handing over the money would have moved Lorelei to reexamine her part in what how they had reached that point and how things could be bettered.

Edited November 23, 2016 by ChlcGirl

[LegalParrot81]

Quote

It's strange that Emily never tried to know Rory better during those 15 years before the pilot. I get that she was hurt and insulted, but she could have done more

To me it isn't all that strange.  It's pretty clear where Lorelai got her stubborn, dig in the heels from, Emily.  Emily was not going to be the one to make the first move to repair the relationship because Emily didn't feel she'd done anything to deserve the treatment she got from Lorelai.  Emily saw an opening when Lorelai asked for the loan (not a gift) for Chilton and took it thus the wonderful FND's.  

Also, Emily was probably never that interested in small children. I doubt she could relate to them.  

[shron17]

1 hour ago, ChlcGirl said:

Emily and Richard inserting themselves into their lives without invitation would have most definitely been unwelcome, and would have been one more indication of them "not respecting" Lorelai's choices.  That's why I don't fault Emily for establishing the weekly dinners when she had the chance. I highly doubt just handing over the money would have moved Lorelei to reexamine her part in what how they had reached that point and how things could be bettered.

I could get on board with this except for the way we see Emily treat Lorelai.  Would anyone want to be around to someone who so carelessly insulted them at every chance, or want their daughter to spend time with them without you?  I really believe that if Emily had made the effort to try to set up visits that were convenient (and even pleasant) for Lorelai and showed her that she was willing to compromise in order to get to know her granddaughter, Rory's relationship with her grandparents could have been very different.

[ChlcGirl]

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

I could get on board with this except for the way we see Emily treat Lorelai.  Would anyone want to be around to someone who so carelessly insulted them at every chance, or want their daughter to spend time with them without you?  I really believe that if Emily had made the effort to try to set up visits that were convenient (and even pleasant) for Lorelai and showed her that she was willing to compromise in order to get to know her granddaughter, Rory's relationship with her grandparents could have been very different.

I guess I saw Lorelai acting as insulting and mean as Emily in their exchanges. Just because Lorelai was more amusing doesn't absolve her of mean behavior.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I guess I saw Lorelai acting as insulting and mean as Emily in their exchanges. Just because Lorelai was more amusing doesn't absolve her of mean behavior.

I think it takes two to tango here.  Emily could have taken steps to reassure Lorelai and, at least, had a relationship with Rory.  Lorelai could have taken real steps to improve her relationship with her parents.  Neither was willing to take those steps.  I will say I can see why Emily was unwilling and would think her presence was not welcome. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by txhorns79

[shron17]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think it takes two to tango here.  Emily could have taken steps to reassure Lorelai and, at least, had a relationship with Rory.  Lorelai could have taken real steps to improve her relationship with her parents.  Neither was willing to take those steps.

It does take two to tango, but when one of those two is the parent they need to consider carefully who it was that started and set the tone for the dance.  Obviously Lorelai wasn't the daughter Emily wanted, but is she really supposed to suppress her own individuality and dreams and personality in order to please her mother and subject herself to frequent criticism?  Not in my world.  Having been on both sides of this equation, I do have sympathy for Emily and understand how devastating it is to feel rejected by your own child.   But I don't think anything quite compares to having your self esteem cut down by the one person you first learned to depend on for life, love and support.

[amensisterfriend]

So now that some have seen the whole revival: Which of the four episodes was your favorite? Least favorite? How well did you feel it capped off the series overall? What were the best and worst things about the revival for you? Overall, did it meet, exceed or fall short of your expectations? What do you expect to happen with the characters post-revival? 

I know we have specific threads for each individual episode, but I thought it would be interesting to have a general chat about the revival as a whole :) 

[Nostariel]

Winter fav, Summer least fav. I honestly think I preferred season 7 as a series capper. Best things: every Emily/Lorelai scene. Kirk and his pig. Sutton Foster singing. Star's Hollow being Star's Hollow. Worst things: most Rory scenes, the almost total ignoring of all S7 character growth and plot points, the weird character assassination of Logan, finding out that ASP's plan for Rory in S7 was actually kind of sad and clichéd. 

It fell a bit short, and I don't think I care what happens after. Emily and Lorelai's stories are wrapped up and Rory looks like she's heading for Anna Nardini territory, which I have no desire to watch.

[NumberCruncher]

21 minutes ago, Nostariel said:

Winter fav, Summer least fav. I honestly think I preferred season 7 as a series capper. Best things: every Emily/Lorelai scene. Kirk and his pig. Sutton Foster singing. Star's Hollow being Star's Hollow. Worst things: most Rory scenes, the almost total ignoring of all S7 character growth and plot points, the weird character assassination of Logan, finding out that ASP's plan for Rory in S7 was actually kind of sad and clichéd. 

It fell a bit short, and I don't think I care what happens after. Emily and Lorelai's stories are wrapped up and Rory looks like she's heading for Anna Nardini territory, which I have no desire to watch.

This.  I also think I prefer the non-ASP S7 to this mess.  At least back then there was some hopeful resolution to Rory's trajectory.  It's funny you brought up April's mom because I thought the same thing.  Look how creative and original this series is in that:

1.  Rory has now become Lorelai 16 years later
2.  Rory is carrying a child with the second generation version of her dad (according to ASP)
3.  Rory is seemingly only going to acknowledge his/her existence once it's sprung on him later just like what happened with Luke and April's mom.

I don't think I'll care to watch more episodes since we can pretty much establish what will happen based upon what's already occurred since ASP loves her parallels so much.  Yawn.

Edited November 25, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[LeafontheWind]

I am disappointed overall. There were some great moments, especially in Winter, but it didn't feel like Gilmore Girls to me. Something was missing. For all the grief people gave season 7, that felt much more like the show I loved than this did. I think Netflix have ASP too much leeway because this felt like all my least favorite parts of the original series amplified. Especially in terms of the musical numbers...

I think part of the reason this felt so wrong was the timing. Several other people mentioned it, but I really feel that people have been stuck for too long. This may have worked a few years ago, but Rory being where she was at age 32 was depressing. And I still dislike Logan and feel like Jess deserved better.

[amensisterfriend]

Quote

and Rory looks like she's heading for Anna Nardini territory, which I have no desire to watch.

Amen, sister friend! ;) I just wrote that in the Fall thread, so we're on the same wavelength, and not just about that one issue.

Overall, I'd give it a C. Honestly, this has always been a show of individual great scenes and lines for me rather than great stories/characterizations/relationships/etc. overall, and the fact that this revival had a few (though not too many!) isolated moments of awesomeness was its saving grace for me. Taken as a whole, though, it left me pretty unsatisfied. Even as someone whose expectations were fairly low, I'm a little disappointed. All rational analysis aside, I just know that the best GG episodes boost my mood and spirits...and this revival didn't. I don't think the show and its characters aged well---or maybe my tolerance for them has just decreased over time.  

I'd imagine that the hardest task for a TV writer is to show some clear character growth and change WITHOUT departing from who the characters are in the first place, so I kind of sympathize with how hard it must have been to capture these characters after a decade had elapsed: too much change and evolution and we wouldn't feel they're recognizable and quintessentially THEM, while not enough would have the audience complaining of stagnation. The latter turned out to be more of an issue for me :) But it's more than that---in some ways the characters actually seemed even worse, most notably Rory, and while most of us might have the same basic flaws we did ten years ago (lord knows I do!), the way they manifested made the characters kind of unsympathetic and grating to me. And, let's be real, a lot of these characters could be a little unsympathetic and/or grating to begin with :) Like, for instance, Rory's not just making the same TYPE of mistakes, she's making the exact same and/or worse ones. 

Anyway, the bright spots overall: Paris, KB's acting, some of the therapy with Emily/Lorelai, Rory realizing that the whole international correspondent thing isn't for her, probably a couple of other little things I'm blanking out on.

Disappointments (all just in my opinion, of course!): Pretty much everything regarding the Rory/Logan relationship and Rory's treatment of Paul; the fact that Jess is still pining for her even though she doesn't seem to feel the same----maybe she'd be more interested in him if he were engaged or married to someone else, haha---; the fact that Rory seems on the verge of Anna-ing Logan; the way that everything about their scenes and the 'Logan is Rory's Christopher!' parallels ASP seems to clunkily draw have me wanting R/L together less than ever before but that somehow her ending up raising their baby without him is just as depressing; Emily's ending making me weirdly uncomfortable even though I don't think it was supposed to; L/L still not selling me on the fact that they are or would be a happy, compatible, loving, smoothly communicating couple in the long term; the fact that even Lorelai/Rory's relationship didn't really warm my heart despite it previously being my very favorite aspect of the show. Oh, and that endless musical and too much Kirk and that Lane/Zack still don't work for me and how a lot of the dialogue and pop culture references felt forced and off and that I hated the fat jokes and gay jokes....yeah, suffice it to say there was a lot more I disliked than liked, and I hate feeling that way! 

I have no idea what is going to happen with Rory/Logan in the future, and, after this revival, I care less than ever before. 

It sounds like I can't deal with ambiguous, less-than-fully-happy endings, and that's actually not the case at all. It's just that in this case I left feeling more down than up and less fond of these already sufficiently flawed characters, and, honestly, that's not what I personally want from GG :) 

I preferred S7 to this by a surprisingly wide margin, though those who have braved the UO thread knows that I even preferred S7 to S5 and S6, so you can't go by me :) 

I doubt they'll be another part to this revival, but even if there is, I'm not so sure I'd want to watch it. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[SnoGirl]

I feel like there was too much fan-service and not enough character development.

I wish we would have seen Luke and Lorelai already married, with a couple of kids (I would have preferred if they were fostering or fostering to adopt, it just seems like something Luke would like). I wouldnt have minded not seeing the wedding, we could have focused on other things.

I wish there would have been more of Emily, Rory, Lorelai and by extension Luke interacting. Too much time was spent on Star Hallows characters, the play (what the HELL was that?) and weird interludes. And where is Rory getting money to fly to London all the time? Logan right? Because I am a single, 30 year old with a steady job and there is no way I could fly to London like she does.

I hate what they did to Logan's character. I liked his growth in season 7. I didn't want them together, but he's turned into his father 2.0 and I don't think he would have.

This ending made me feel like ASP thinks we're all doomed to become our parents. If she wanted to have Rory pregnant, I wish the baby was Jesse's. Mirror Lorelai and Luke's story, but have the baby his. Then the storyline is similiar but have the two end up together(I'm not Team Jesse, I'm Team End-up-Single). 

I'm up for a second series, that being said, because Fall felt like somewhat of a stride was hit. And then we wouldn't be tied to the mythical last four words. Go back to thr old formula and stop trying to please everyone.

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm still conflicted on how I feel now. I'm really disappointed in the ending for a lot of reasons. But more than anything, there was a lot of magic missing with this. Which is strange because all I had been hearing from interviews from the cast and the people behind was that coming back felt so right and I was thinking through all of these episodes "am I missing it?"

The only episodes that felt right were Spring and most of Summer.

Im mad we didn't get to see a L/L wedding and only get to hear they are married. and I'm mad that they still have jess pining for Rory who can't make a clear choice on anything.  I get that they are trying to do a parallel thing here with Christopher and Lorelei but like someone said that ending is kind of disappointing in that apparently we're all destined to become our parents and make the same choices they have made. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by WhosThatGirl

[aw86]

Although I liked some moments, especially Emily and Lorelei stuff, overall this was a miss.  Rory was horrible person - the Logan affair, the Paul stuff, the self-entitlement at the interview.  The musical was painful.  There was too much winking at the audience - Rory saying "its been too long after the first Rory/Lorelai exchange, the Doyle screenwriting, Mr. Kim.   I still don't really know where Lane is at in her life.  Emily at the whaling museum was bizarre. Lauren and Scott lost their chemistry. And much more

Edited November 25, 2016 by aw86

[aw86]

Oh and I will put this here because I don't remember what episode it was in, but the Paul Anka dream!  Amy, you already did that in The Real Paul Anka and it wasn't that funny the first time.  I had to look up whether that was S6 or S7 because I didn't understand why she would do it twice, but she did

[backhometome]

The musical was a big waste of time. I FF most of it. 

Rory was awful. Such an entitled selfish character. I dont even know where to start.

The Paul thing was not funny at all. Made Rory come off as horrible. Well more horrible ;)

Jess/Luke scenes were honestly one of the few highlights. I always liked them.

Dean having a better ending than the show made me happy. I hated how they did his character wrong in the show. Also nice that he is an ex that is actually over Rory. 

Emily was great as usual.

The Doyle thing was just so freaking annoying. Obv. a nod to real life. 

What was the point of the Tristan part if it wasn't the same actor. 

I was expecting more Jess.

Final 4 words were not what I was expecting at all.

It seems like Amy is trying to parallel LoganRoryJess to ChristopherLorelaiLuke which I dont see at all. Sure there are similarities but ultimately the situation is completely different and they arent the same people. 

 I enjoyed parts of it but I disliked more than I liked overall. Which was a shame. IDK maybe I need to digest it more. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by backhometome

[ghoulina]

7 minutes ago, backhometome said:

 

The musical was a big waste of time. I FF most of it. 

 

Egads, yes. This wasn't a full length season. Why waste so much time on that??? If I want to see a musical, I'll go to the theater. 

 

8 minutes ago, backhometome said:

It seems like Amy is trying to parallel LoganRoryJess to ChristopherLorelaiLuke which I dont see at all. Sure there are similarities but ultimately the situation is completely different and they arent the same people. 

I got that feeling as well, and I really didn't care for it. To me, a large theme of the show was Lorelei wanting better for Rory. If Rory essentially ends up like her mother, that would be pretty sad. Not that Lorelei has a horrible life or anything, but it would say that she really didn't teach Rory anything. And Rory's 16 years older than Lorelei when it happened, so that's even more pathetic!

[NumberCruncher]

1 minute ago, backhometome said:

Rory was awful. Such an entitled selfish character. I dont even know where to start.

I figure if I'm going to salvage this revival I'm going to have to ignore her whole storyline because yuck.

Dean having a better ending than the show made me happy. I hated how they did his character wrong in the show. Also nice that he is an ex that is actually over Rory.

Which is what I really wished had happened to all 3 exes.  The retreading of the high school/college drama is eyeroll-worthy.  Couldn't we have gotten some new blood here so that ASP didn't have to make the predictable, never-ending love triangles from hell?

Final 4 words were not what I was expecting at all.

Really?  I kind of feel like it was being broadcast far and wide based on the reviews all talking about things coming "full circle".

It seems like Amy is trying to parallel LoganRoryJess to ChristopherLorelaiLuke which I dont see at all. Sure there are similarities but ultimately the situation is completely different and they arent the same people.

 

She is definitely trying to make the parallel which is why I doubt I'll be watching future episodes of Logan's flaky back and forth with Rory as a foil for the predictable Luke and Lorelai re-hash with Jess.  I already saw 7 seasons of that storyline.  Jess certainly doesn't deserve that kind of bullshit.  If he were smart, he'd take a page out of Dean's book and find a nice girl to settle down with rather than pining away for Lorelai version 2.0.

[Eyes High]

15 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

Jess certainly doesn't deserve that kind of bullshit.  If he were smart, he'd take a page out of Dean's book and find a nice girl to settle down with rather than pining away for Lorelai version 2.0.

Well, if the parallel is deliberate (and I think it is), apparently if Jess waits long enough, Rory will come around. It will only take 20 years or so.

Real talk: as shitty and entitled as Revival Rory was being, I truly did feel for her. I had a rude awakening after what was a relatively smooth degree ended and I eventually had to take a job that was the opposite of prestigious just to stay working in my field after a sustained period of unemployment. I didn't think I was owed a great career, and I was keenly aware at the time that there were many others in far worse situations, but I was just as unaccustomed to failure as Rory and it hurt like a bitch every time I had to tell family members, colleagues and acquaintances I hadn't seen for a while what I was currently doing. That low-paying, low-prestige job turned out to be temporary, and I moved on to better things as Rory likely will, but it was subjectively if not perhaps empirically terrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[starri]

I'm just not sure if I buy the "Jess is the new Luke!" stuff.  While I'm not eager for even more of this (I wasn't particularly eager for this), it seems like Milo might be a little busy.  I'm honestly surprised they managed to get a scene out of Melissa McCarthy, and if I remember correctly that only happened because she told them she would be happy to appear when they assumed she wouldn't.

Maybe it was just a question of the actors being available, but I can't help but think all of the musical stuff was time they could have used for Lane.

And even though we were clearly told about the seasons, I couldn't really follow how much time was passing in each episode.

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Well, if the parallel is deliberate (and I think it is), apparently if Jess waits long enough, Rory will come around. It will only take 20 years or so.

Agreed...and that's really, really pathetic, IMO.

[ghoulina]

12 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

Really?  I kind of feel like it was being broadcast far and wide based on the reviews all talking about things coming "full circle".

I avoid press and spoilers like the plague, so I hadn't even HEARD there would be a "final four words". It totally came out of left field for me. But right before she said it, I knew. 

[Kohola3]

Guess I will have to stay totally off the forum for a while.  I have not watched the revival and thought that the comments would be kept in those threads so the rest of us would not be spoiled.

[amensisterfriend]

The more I read (not just from here, but all over the internet!), the more I feel like in her attempt not to alienate either Logan/Rory fans or Jess/Rory fans, AS-P irked both camps: she reverted Logan back to the womanizing, smug and smirky playboy d-bag, effectively taking away the 'growth' he had gotten in the series (granted, most of which seems to have taken place during the final DR-helmed season) and making him suddenly less able or willing than ever to stand up to his father. Sure, Rory's having his baby (probably), but it was the result of an affair they were having while he was engaged and she was in a committed relationship, and she's not even sure she wants to TELL him about their child, so it's hard to feel too rosy about their overall dynamic. As for Jess, while I get the idea that he may be her Luke and that he tends to push her in the right direction when she's at a crossroads in her life (inspiring her to return to college in S6, urging her to feel better about herself and write the book this time around), it's hard to ignore that Jess/Rory in general wasn't given much focus at all and that Rory seemed not to return any of his romantic feelings, so while fans of that relationship can't say they'll NEVER get together, it certainly doesn't feel like an imminent possibility, especially now that she's pregnant with Logan's baby. And is Jess waiting around with the slim hope that Rory one day deigns to notice him romantically while raising Logan's child (and possibly continuing her now established pattern of getting involved with married/engaged men along the way, haha) really a cheery prospect for R/J fans anyway?! I know that some hate Jess and understand why, but I feel like the character deserves better. 

Anyway, if AS-P didn't want Rory to end up with anyone from her past, at least not definitively, I totally understand and even mostly agree with that, but I wish she had taken us on a different journey to get there. The one she went with feels not so much more complex as just depressing, with Jess still pining and Logan still...Logan-ing, and it made both Rory and Logan less likable to me while feeling a little sorry for Jess. 

And a huge YES to whoever noted that it feels like the theme of this revival is that we're fated to inevitably turn out just like our parents even if we don't want to, which I find bleak and kind of lazy. Logan is totally mini-Mitchum and seemingly powerless not to obey his parents' commands, Rory is arguably more like Lorelai at the very start of the series than ever before in the most dispiriting ways, (yet without Lorelai's strength, resilience, vibrancy, independence and determination). GG at its best advocated for the idea that, yes, some things are predestined and we can't escape certain familial ties or similarities, but we can also make our own very different choices from our parents and carve out different lives for ourselves. The revival seemed to almost convey the opposite. 

(To be fair, the revival DID give is something of a more optimistic 'hey, your life is what you make it, however many surprises you may meet with along the way!' message with Emily, though it was a little hard for me to feel as good about as I should have since it stemmed from such a sad event and some of the specifics of her story felt off to me.)

I wish I wanted a 'part 2' of this, but I'd honestly much rather watch the earlier seasons of the series and remember why I loved it :)  

[WhosThatGirl]

I think this revival really just hit the nail on the head with what was wrong with the original series, only increased tenfold. Rory is literally Lorelei 2 with her treading around men and keeping hangers on for.. safe keeping something and she's going to keep one guy around because she has a child with him and also.. this may be because Rory is the specialist snowflake of all the snowflakes and no one has told her any different. 

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

Anyway, if AS-P didn't want Rory to end up with anyone from her past, at least not definitively, I totally understand and even mostly agree with that, but I wish she had taken us on a different journey to get there. The one she went with feels not so much more complex as just depressing, with Jess still pining and Logan still...Logan-ing, and it made both Rory and Logan less likable to me while feeling a little sorry for Jess. 

1000% yes. It was mostly depressing to me. I can see wanting to avoid all the shipping wars. I've always been Team Jess, but I would have been fine if she HAD a new guy, a Paul, and was happy and creating her own, new life. Maybe they just didn't want to invest in creating another important character. 

[amensisterfriend]

Jess certainly doesn't deserve that kind of bullshit.  If he were smart, he'd take a page out of Dean's book and find a nice girl to settle down with rather than pining away for Lorelai version 2.0.

I found myself feeling the EXACT same way!

Well, if the parallel is deliberate (and I think it is), apparently if Jess waits long enough, Rory will come around. It will only take 20 years or so.

LOL! It's funny because it's so sadly true ;)

So is another season of this a nearly confirmed reality or just a remote possibility? I thought it was the latter, but people keep mentioning a next season like it's almost a lock. 

[starri]

8 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

So is another season of this a nearly confirmed reality or just a remote possibility? I thought it was the latter, but people keep mentioning a next season like it's almost a lock. 

I don't think that any show that Netflix has debuted hasn't at least gotten a second season, and since I think this is being aimed at the same audience as Fuller House, and given how popular that was, I can't imagine this isn't going to get similar numbers.  Hell, I watched the entire thing in a single day and I didn't even really enjoy it all that much.

They were smart dropping it on a day where a lot of people were off work.

[NumberCruncher]

Milo also hinted that there would be more in a recent interview.

[starri]

And given my professed hatred of the townies, this is an odd question, but where the hell was Morey?  I don't remember Babette even mentioning him.

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I think this revival really just hit the nail on the head with what was wrong with the original series, only increased tenfold. Rory is literally Lorelei 2 with her treading around men and keeping hangers on for.. safe keeping something and she's going to keep one guy around because she has a child with him and also.. this may be because Rory is the specialist snowflake of all the snowflakes and no one has told her any different. 

If anything, the revival put paid to any notion that Rory is a "special snowflake." For all her education and ambition, she wound up pretty much in her mother's shoes. She's broke, she has no credit, and her belongings are scattered. She moved back in with her mother. She completely blows the job interview she had deigned to attend, wrongly assuming it was hers. She's a failure as a journalist who only has any kind of steady job in the field because she begged a small town bigwig for a favour. Logan's "grand gesture" was aimed at getting her back...as his side piece. She engages in an affair that has permanent consequences (well, permanent in GG-verse, where abortion apparently doesn't exist).

As for her romantic prospects, Logan is unwilling to ditch his fiancee for her, and although Jess may hold a torch for her he's shown no interest in renewing his pursuit of her, and quite sensibly given his distress when Rory tried to get back at Logan by cheating on him with Jess in Season 6. It may seem at first glance like she has guys falling all over themselves for her, but her situation is pretty lousy. She has a worthless babydaddy and a decent guy who regardless of whatever feelings he may have for her is smart enough to steer clear. Remember: Jess had no idea about Rory's entanglements in Summer and Fall but made not one romantic move in Rory's direction whatsoever. His tone with her in Summer was much like the tone he took with Luke in Fall: caring but blunt, very "man-to-man" (even if Rory's a woman).

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[ghoulina]

1 minute ago, starri said:

And given my professed hatred of the townies, this is an odd question, but where the hell was Morey?  I don't remember Babette even mentioning him.

I think he was there. I can't recall which episode it was in, but the one where they were all at the movies and every townie had brought some different form of outside food (which I loved by the way!) - that's where I believe I saw Maury. He and Babette had brought a little George Foreman type of grill and she was spraying it with water, and he was telling her it was "just right" or something like that. 

[starri]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

For all her education and ambition, she wound up pretty much in her mother's shoes. She's broke, she has no credit, and her belongings are scattered.

How are those Lorelai's shoes?  Lorelai might not have the Ivy League degree, but she managed to successfully keep a roof over Rory's head and food on the table, while continuing to pay for her own more modest college education and save money to start her own business.

That's nothing at all like what Rory was doing.

[WhosThatGirl]

Just now, Eyes High said:

If anything, the revival put paid to any notion that Rory is a "special snowflake." For all her education and ambition, she wound up pretty much in her mother's shoes. She's broke, she has no credit, and her belongings are scattered. She moved back in with her mother. She completely blows the job interview she had deigned to attend, wrongly assuming it was hers. She's a failure as a journalist who only has any kind of steady job in the field because she begged a small town bigwig for a favour. Logan's "grand gesture" was aimed at getting her back...as his side piece. She engages in an affair that has permanent consequences (well, permanent in GG-verse, where abortion apparently doesn't exist).

Yeah, I guess but I think it just points out Lorelei never gave her any other idea that she would have to work at things. And honestly I was talking about personally, none of these guys, except for dean who finally left the car crash yay Dean! Can let go of Rory Gilmore! It took Paul all the way into like a year to realize she isn't worth it. And even if Logan has a wife, he's the Christopher in this story so soon he's going to be in chasing Rory down to marry him! 

[amensisterfriend]

Oh, dear, so it sounds like another season is a much stronger possibility than I'd thought. After all, there have to be some married or engaged men who Rory hasn't slept with yet, so there are still more stories to tell! ;) Seriously, if there is another season, that would be awesome news for those who loved it and would give hope to those of us who DIDN'T love it that maybe better things are to come...?!

If anything, the revival put paid to any notion that Rory is a "special snowflake." For all her education and ambition, she wound up pretty much in her mother's shoes. She's broke, she has no credit, and her belongings are scattered. She moved back in with her mother. She completely blows the job interview she had deigned to attend, wrongly assuming it was hers. She's a failure as a journalist who only has any kind of steady job in the field because she begged a small town bigwig for a favour. Logan's "grand gesture" was aimed at getting her back...as his side piece.

THIS!  I actually wanted to mention this in my initial rambling post about what I liked and didn't like: as much as the revival disappointed me overall, one thing I liked and found interesting was that it almost came off like the normally far too stubborn ASP actually heard and took to heart feedback about Rory being too much of a 'special snowflake' who never suffers any consequences for her choices and gets everything in life handed to her with ease. 

General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons? I didn't quite read it that way, but a lot of people did, so I'd be curious to hear feedback! 

[starri]

Just now, amensisterfriend said:

General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons? I didn't quite read it that way, but a lot of people did, so I'd be curious to hear feedback! 

My general hatred of Logan may have gotten my perception skewed, but he seemed more like someone who couldn't let go of the past.  So did Rory.  She's a grown woman, stop calling her "Ace," you douchecanoe.

Random thought:  If Lorelai was so keen on keeping Michel around and trying to find more money to pay him, why not ask Sookie if they could give him a share of the business.  After sticking around for more than a decade, he's probably earned it.  I will also say that I really did like him as Lorelai's substitute bestie, and was really quite happy he was at the wedding.

[ghoulina]

1 minute ago, amensisterfriend said:

General question for you guys: Do you feel like Rory and Logan were genuinely in love during this revival and just unable to say so and act on it for various reasons? I didn't quite read it that way, but a lot of people did, so I'd be curious to hear feedback! 

Kind of. I actually got that impression more from Logan than Rory. I don't know that, after her initial rejection, he'd ever want to be the one to propose getting serious again. Rory, to me, seemed more like she just liked the comfort of someone she knew. I didn't think there was this big, epic romance going on, but I think they both might have been open to the possibility of more, if the circumstances were right. 

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah, I guess but I think it just points out Lorelei never gave her any other idea that she would have to work at things. And honestly I was talking about personally, none of these guys, except for dean who finally left the car crash yay Dean! Can let go of Rory Gilmore! It took Paul all the way into like a year to realize she isn't worth it. And even if Logan has a wife, he's the Christopher in this story so soon he's going to be in chasing Rory down to marry him! 

I think it's a Peggy/Pete from Mad Men situation. In Season 1 of Mad Men, Peggy got pregnant with a married man's (Pete's) baby. He had feelings for her but he had no interest in leaving his wife (at least not until much later). She loved him, but didn't want to trap him into being with her via pregnancy; as she later explained to him, she did not want to "shame" him into being with her. Peggy therefore decided to conceal the pregnancy from Pete.

I expect Rory will have the attitude that if Logan couldn't be bothered to dump Odette for her benefit before the pregnancy, which he made clear when he responded "That's the dynastic plan" to Rory asking him if he really intended to marry Odette, the fact that he would be willing to dump her once he learned of the baby and be with her out of obligation would not mean much. Rory would want to be chosen for herself, not out of obligation, and Logan already failed that test.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Eyes High