Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[MarySNJ]

14 hours ago, GraceK said:

Does anyone think it's possible that Robert KNEW that Lyanna went willingly? Pure speculation on my part, I'm just wondering if he knew Lyanna didn't love him and he convinced himself she was Kidnapped?

I think Robert's pride would not have allowed him to consider that his beloved Lyanna would rather risk bringing dishonor to her House by running off with another man, than to marry him. That being said, egoists are good at self-delusion. 

[Advance35]

Quote

I don't know. If that's what happened, Jon wanted everyone in authority to see what they are facing. And that might help to explain to Sansa why Jon gave up his crown and pledged to Daenerys. ... "You need to see to know."

I didn't read any script but I could kind of see why Jon would want Sansa there.  IF something were to happen to him, he would want Sansa to keep his pledge to Dany in terms of supporting her bid for the Throne if she and her dragons help against the WW.  I don't think there is anything in the world of Westeros that could get Sansa to support Cersei but I think at this point, after the WW threat, she would probably prefer Cersei and Dany to take each other out.   If forced to choose it would be Dany but I don't think Sansa is a fan, whether that will change, time will tell.

[MarySNJ]

18 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I didn't read any script but I could kind of see why Jon would want Sansa there.  IF something were to happen to him, he would want Sansa to keep his pledge to Dany in terms of supporting her bid for the Throne if she and her dragons help against the WW.  I don't think there is anything in the world of Westeros that could get Sansa to support Cersei but I think at this point, after the WW threat, she would probably prefer Cersei and Dany to take each other out.   If forced to choose it would be Dany but I don't think Sansa is a fan, whether that will change, time will tell.

Absolutely - based on her personal experience and everything she knows there is no way would Sansa support Cersei, even putting aside the fact that Cersei put a price on Sansa's head for a crime she didn't commit. If something happened to Jon and Sansa is left to rule the North, I think she would ally herself with Daenerys in a heartbeat if that's what it would take to protect her people. I don't see any evidence that Sansa has any strong negative feelings about Dany at this point, and the fickle Northern Lords will fall in line when faced with the threat from the Night King and his army's of the dead. 

[YaddaYadda]

13 hours ago, Edith said:

They run away and hide for months! He leave all the responsibility of his actions to his father, who Rhaegar tried to deposed before because he wasn't fit to rule. R+L might not start the war, like you said it was Aerys calling for R and N's head, but they definitely ignited the spark that fueled the fire for the Rebellion.

Diplomacy? With Dorne? After the annulment that turns both kids in bastards? After taking away the possibility from Aegon (the first) to inherit the throne? No way!

This a big problem for me, the annulment, is it a show thing only because it's simpler? 

And the children becoming bastards after an annulment, is this a book thing, or is this based on real world history? I've been looking through the text, and I'm not finding anything. It's possible that I keep reading over it and not catching it. Cersei was worried about being set aside, it's mentioned twice. 

There's no way the Dornish didn't know that Rhaegar was on their soil. The tower in between two castles, on a route that's used for trade. Plus if that tower is where Daeron died, then it kinda has some serious historical implications.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

This a big problem for me, the annulment, is it a show thing only because it's simpler? 

Absolutely.  GRRM has spelled out how you get an annulment in the books, and Rhaegar wouldn't qualify for one.

[GrailKing]

16 hours ago, herbz said:

I've long thought that if the 'younger, more beautiful' has to be one woman rather than a combination of Margaery, Sansa, Daenerys (probably Arianne in the books as well), then the only one who would be interesting from a literary perspective is Brienne. All the others are noted for their looks. It turning out to be Brienne and a nod to her inner nature seems like the sort of subversion GRRM would go in in for. Plus I like the idea that 150 years on from ASOIAF, 'Brienne the Beauty' becomes one of those iconic figures from legends told round Westerosi fires and nobody actually questions whether she was beautiful or not. 

My order: Marg. Danny, Sansa, Brienne and Arya.

[GrailKing]

16 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

Ever since LF gave Bran the dagger, I think Sansa was on to LF being up to something.  I think she's just needed time to wrap her head around her three eyed raven brother and assassin sister.  Give the girl a minute to breathe.  But it was LF that brought up Brienne and I think at that point it clicked for her that LF was pitting the sisters against each other.  By sending Brienne off, LF is none the wiser that Sansa!s really building her case against him.  And once that bastard's dead, Sansa has shown that she can play the game.

The dagger was a compass, but ( I already put this out ) It was to me when Arya mentioned the vow Brienne  acknowledged to Arya, they panned right to Sansa giving a dagger glance at LF. Right there she figured his plan, later LF brings up Brienne's vows and keep her close; next scene Sansa sends her to KL.

Removes a chess piece from LF side of the board, that Sansa can reuse if needed; and it saves Brienne's honor and Sansa's vow to Brienne.

A clever call back to Jamie Lannister's so many vows, which do we choose.

It also shows LF words of "fighting all battles in your mind.....and what you see, you've seen before" coming back to bite him.

He is screwed.

Edited August 26, 2017 by GrailKing

[GrailKing]

16 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

Ever since LF gave Bran the dagger, I think Sansa was on to LF being up to something.  I think she's just needed time to wrap her head around her three eyed raven brother and assassin sister.  Give the girl a minute to breathe.  But it was LF that brought up Brienne and I think at that point it clicked for her that LF was pitting the sisters against each other.  By sending Brienne off, LF is none the wiser that Sansa!s really building her case against him.  And once that bastard's dead, Sansa has shown that she can play the game.

I think She started ( as a NOVICE ) in 4-8, and by the end of 6-10 Sansa set Baleish in her sight.

Almost everything we see from 7-1 on is either part of her plan or used in her plan.

I think not only is she playing LF, but Arya also, Sansa needs Arya's emotions to be real and every thing we see between them is real, or real on Arya's part.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I didn't read any script but I could kind of see why Jon would want Sansa there.  IF something were to happen to him, he would want Sansa to keep his pledge to Dany in terms of supporting her bid for the Throne if she and her dragons help against the WW.  I don't think there is anything in the world of Westeros that could get Sansa to support Cersei but I think at this point, after the WW threat, she would probably prefer Cersei and Dany to take each other out.   If forced to choose it would be Dany but I don't think Sansa is a fan, whether that will change, time will tell.

I'm starting to think one of Sansa's stories may be getting real. Queen Alaysanne returns to Winterfell.

Edited August 26, 2017 by GrailKing

[lucindabelle]

So I'm confused.

 

Rhaegar was already married, yes? So it wasn't an engagement he was breaking but a marrige. Broken engagements don't need to be annulled. 

He had two kids, yes?

I do want to believe in true love but what had the wife and kids done to deserve this? anything?

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

So I'm confused.

Rhaegar was already married, yes? So it wasn't an engagement he was breaking but a marrige. Broken engagements don't need to be annulled. 

He had two kids, yes?

I do want to believe in true love but what had the wife and kids done to deserve this? anything?

I don't think there's anything to be confused about. It seems the show is doing its own thing vs whatever GRRM wants to write. I think the choice of words is a pretty unfortunate one because of all the implications. D&D aren't writing this for people who have read the books, they're writing the show for a broader audience. I watch the show with the broader audience and they give zero fucks about the stuff we discuss on here.

Me: An annulment means that Rhaenys and Aegon are bastards.
Them: And? They're dead, so who cares. 
Me: *facepalm*
Them: You take this way too seriously.
Me: ...

Naerys asked Aegon to set their marriage aside after she gave birth to Daeron and he refused her because he was a nasty piece of work. Her request was more akin of a divorce though, since there were no grounds for an annulment after that marriage was consummated. If there's a separation between Elia and Rhaegar, it won't be an annulment. And I think this is the very thing Cersei was worried about, that Robert would essentially divorce her.

There's just too much we don't know and I don't think the show is an accurate reference.

Edited August 26, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[LadyChaos]

One could even argue it's Brienne that's the 'another that's younger, more beautiful' because Jamie cares about her. If Cersei feels that Brienne might be the cause of his sway in loyalty so she has Brienne killed... it could be what finally breaks Jamie and he kills Cersei. 

[Inquiry]

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

And the children becoming bastards after an annulment

Well, I know in real life that Henry VIII annulling his marriage to Katherine of Aragon made their child, Mary, illegitimate. She was a bastard from 1533 until Henry's last wife, Catherine Parr, persuaded him to put Mary (and Elizabeth) back into the line of succession with the 1554 Act of Succession. So, basically, it likely would have depended on Rhaegar? 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Inquiry

[LadyChaos]

I really hope we get a scene that shows Ayra, Bran, and Sansa talking about setting a trap for LF.

[WearyTraveler]

31 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I really hope we get a scene that shows Ayra, Bran, and Sansa talking about setting a trap for LF.

I don-t think we will.  It seems to me, D&D want the audience to think that Sansa will execute Arya only to surprise us with Sansa ordering LF to die.  And then we're supposed to go "OMG! Sansa is SO smart!! I thought LF was manipulating her, but it turned out SHE had him fooled. Go Sansa!!"

31 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I really hope we get a scene that shows Ayra, Bran, and Sansa talking abo

Edited August 27, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[MadMouse]

Then you have the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine who was married to the King of France, they had two daughters before the annulment who were declared legitimate. 

I do think we're reading more into this then is necessary. Annulment is just a simple way to show Rhaegar and Lyanna got married and Jon isn't a bastard. No way they were going to spend the time explaining the history of Targs taking multiple wives or how an annulment affects other children. It's my guess that's why he has the name Aegon too, it's been mentioned before and makes things simpler for people who can't even remember characters names.

[TarotQueen]

1 hour ago, Inquiry said:

Well, I know in real life that Henry VIII annulling his marriage to Katherine of Aragon made their child, Mary, illegitimate. She was a bastard from 1533 until Henry's last wife, Catherine Parr, persuaded him to put Mary (and Elizabeth) back into the line of succession with the 1554 Act of Succession. So, basically, it likely would have depended on Rhaegar? 

Eh ... you might have gotten some bad info at some point in your history studies.  Henry VIII split from the Catholic church because they would NOT grant him an annulment from Mary's mother.  Then he created his own church and granted himself a divorce from Catherine, remarried Anne Boleyn, and had Parliament declare Mary illegitimate.

In any case, it's quite possible that we're overdrawing comparisons between Faith of the Seven/Roman Catholicism.  GRRM doesnt really do one on one match ups, hence controversies like whether Dany is more akin to Elizabeth I, Mary Queen of Scots, or Henry VII.  And GRRM didnt even do this one!

What I am hoping is maybe Bran will be able to pull some more clarity out from the weirwood net for us in season 8 but I kind of doubt it.  As others have said above, I dont think most of the audience cares enough for D&D to follow up on it.

[Inquiry]

4 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

Eh ... you might have gotten some bad info at some point in your history studies.  Henry VIII split from the Catholic church because they would NOT grant him an annulment from Mary's mother.  Then he created his own church and granted himself a divorce from Catherine, remarried Anne Boleyn, and had Parliament declare Mary illegitimate.

Yeah, Henry gave himself an annulment; although I take your point of Henry VIII going through Parliament to make Mary illegitimate.  Agree with the rest of your post too. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

I don-t think we will.  It seems to me, D&D want the audience to think that Sansa will execute Arya only to surprise us with Sansa ordering LF to die.  And then we're supposed to go "OMG! Sansa is SO smart!! I thought LF was manipulating her, but it turned out SHE had him fooled. Go Sansa!!"

Sigh. You're right and I'm already cringing in anticipation.

[Raachel2008]

On 24/08/2017 at 9:10 PM, bunnyblue said:

The only connection I can think of is that the Mountain killed Jon's half-brother and half-sister.

What half-sister? You mean Talisa?

[Bill1978]

8 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

What half-sister? You mean Talisa?

I'm assuming the original poster is referring to The Mountain killing Rhaeger's first two children, who are Jon's half-siblings, at the end of Robert's Rebellion. 

[Raachel2008]

9 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

I'm assuming the original poster is referring to The Mountain killing Rhaeger's first two children, who are Jon's half-siblings, at the end of Robert's Rebellion. 

Ah, okay. 

[FemmyV]

On 8/25/2017 at 4:06 PM, Blonde Gator said:

But who told the lie?  IOW, who besides Rhager & Lyanna, Rhaegar's Kings Guard (Arthur Dane, Oswald Whent, Gerald Hightower), and Septon Maynard (per Gilly), knew?   Who besides the core participants knew, and not only told, but spread the basic lie?

I'm suddenly wonder if this might turn out to be GRRM's 3rd "Oh shit" moment. At some point, there needs to be some discussion why neither Brother Maynard nor Rheagar seemed to have told anyone.

[GrailKing]

On 8/25/2017 at 3:07 PM, anamika said:

Why did she not tell Arya and Brienne? Because they are not trustworthy or because they can't tell lies? So many excuses being thrown around, I am confused...

Sansa is keeping everything close, I think she has Wolcum,Bran ( I'm sure she talks to him at least 1 or 2 times a day ) and Royce in her circle; I'm not sure she trust Glover and she's keeping Brienne and Arya out of the loop.

Why not tell Arya, I think she wants Arya's emotions to be raw after her knowledge of the letter ( I think Maester brought it to her )and made sure LF had it in his position so he can lead Arya, let Arya see him etc. all the way into Arya's room all that emotion on Arya's part is real up to when she gives the dagger, then Sansa is sure she can trust Arya, and Arya is sure that Sansa is truthful. The letter from KL was fortuitous as it gave a reason for Sansa to send Brienne away with out truly raising LF suspicions and allowing Sansa to save Brienne's honor, Sansa's vow to her and it removed a piece of LF side off the chess board.

Somewhere some time off screen Sansa will talk to her with Bran and he will let Arya know what Sansa knows.

Despite what you mentioned up thread neither girls know he betrayed Ned in the throne room, or had the Gold Cloaks switched to Cersei; Sansa was in her room and Arya was with Syreo or chasing cats. 

[Oscirus]

The big thing that's not being talked about is that the majority of the wildings are pretty much killed off and the Unsullied are being sent the white walkers way for an after dinner snack.  I'm  sure Tormund will survive, but Im interested in seeing how they do it next season, since he's clearly in danger.

[Bill1978]

I've actually been dreading The Wall coming down in the way the spoilers described because of Tormund. I just can't see how he is going to survive that onslaught.

[MadMouse]

From the script, boatsex happens on the way to White Harbor(yeah Manderlys) so my guess is Tormund survives and the first episode next season ends with him bringing the news of the wall falling during some heated exchange between Northern/Vale lords and Dany/Jon.

[Edith]

5 hours ago, MadMouse said:

From the script, boatsex happens on the way to White Harbor(yeah Manderlys) so my guess is Tormund survives and the first episode next season ends with him bringing the news of the wall falling during some heated exchange between Northern/Vale lords and Dany/Jon.

If Tormund survived is going to be for plot armor only and there is not need for him to tell the rest about the wall falling, Bran is going to see it live.

@Oscirus I don't know if they are going to change it but in he old outline the Unsullied don't know how to fight in the snow and they are sending it to Eastwatch so they can learn with Tormund. 

Also interesting if all the wildlings die, I wonder if we are going to get any reation from Jon. After all, he did promised to fight with them when the WW come.

[SimoneS]

I hope that Tormund does survive the finale. I don't want last week to be a fake out.  I suspect that he is doomed, but he deserves to survive to fight the NK and then Cersei. I hope some of the Wildings survive enough to settle on the lands that Jon promised them. They deserve some happiness after all they have been through. 

[Mrs Ruttenhouse]

I don't think Tormund is going to die anytime soon.  If they wanted to kill him off, it would have made much more sense to do it during the mission beyond the wall in 7x06.  One of the biggest criticisms of that episode is that hardly any of the important (human) characters died.  People were expecting at least two or three of the magnificent seven would bite the dust.  Instead, we only lost Thoros.  The other six had some heavy-duty plot armor to survive that episode.

I just don't see the writers going to all the trouble of having Tormund survive episode six, just to kill him off in a cameo one episode later.  He may very well die before the series is over, but he's still around for a reason.  The Lords of Light, aka the writers, aren't done with him yet.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Mrs Ruttenhouse

[Blonde Gator]

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I'm suddenly wonder if this might turn out to be GRRM's 3rd "Oh shit" moment. At some point, there needs to be some discussion why neither Brother Maynard nor Rheagar seemed to have told anyone.

Oooh!  That's good.

First is Hodor, 2nd is the Creation of the Walkers, right?  Because those two events smack of GRRM to me, and are both far too elegant for D&D to have come up with them. 

The other possibility, as I see it, is for GRRM's 3rd "Oh Shit" moment is what is at the heart of "A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell".  The Crypts of Winterfell are looming large in my head.....and I get the feeling that D&D are never going to address what's at the bottom of it (sorry, bad pun).  I expect D&D to make the ending "bittersweet", but in a way which will be 180 degrees different than what we'll get in the books.  D&D's ending will be tidy, and neat, with the characters we love who get killed have a meaningful death.....rather than the way deaths are going to occur in the books.  We'll get the same cast of characters standing, more or less, but the end result is going to be totally different for the characters who survive, if that makes sense.

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I'm suddenly wonder if this might turn out to be GRRM's 3rd "Oh shit" moment. At some point, there needs to be some discussion why neither Brother Maynard nor Rheagar seemed to have told anyone.

Because they died before they could mention it.

[FemmyV]

40 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oooh!  That's good.

First is Hodor, 2nd is the Creation of the Walkers, right?  Because those two events smack of GRRM to me, and are both far too elegant for D&D to have come up with them. 

The other possibility, as I see it, is for GRRM's 3rd "Oh Shit" moment is what is at the heart of "A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell".  The Crypts of Winterfell are looming large in my head.....and I get the feeling that D&D are never going to address what's at the bottom of it (sorry, bad pun).  I expect D&D to make the ending "bittersweet", but in a way which will be 180 degrees different than what we'll get in the books.  D&D's ending will be tidy, and neat, with the characters we love who get killed have a meaningful death.....rather than the way deaths are going to occur in the books.  We'll get the same cast of characters standing, more or less, but the end result is going to be totally different for the characters who survive, if that makes sense.

Considering Oh Shit Moments 1 and 2, Moment 3 might well be something more fantastical. But consider: If Robert somehow knew they had married and found out, while Ned's dad and bro got killed from not knowing, everything in the whole story collapses and leaves one heaping stinkpile on Baratheon. To find out someone could have been so vindictive to, not just bring down a dynasty off the throne, but murdered left and right all because of the jealousy. That's a lot of wow.

[MadMouse]

4 hours ago, Edith said:

If Tormund survived is going to be for plot armor only and there is not need for him to tell the rest about the wall falling, Bran is going to see it live.

What works better in context of a TV series? Bran telling them in a monotone voice or a Giant ginger that the most of characters at Winterfell know coming in a the last moment to end an episode?

[SeanC]

57 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

First is Hodor, 2nd is the Creation of the Walkers, right?  Because those two events smack of GRRM to me, and are both far too elegant for D&D to have come up with them. 

No, the first was Shireen; the second was Hodor.

[Oscirus]

19 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Considering Oh Shit Moments 1 and 2, Moment 3 might well be something more fantastical. But consider: If Robert somehow knew they had married and found out, while Ned's dad and bro got killed from not knowing, everything in the whole story collapses and leaves one heaping stinkpile on Baratheon. To find out someone could have been so vindictive to, not just bring down a dynasty off the throne, but murdered left and right all because of the jealousy. That's a lot of wow.

And why would he even know before the Starks? At that point, Baratheon was nobody of importance, so telling him wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Oscirus

[Blonde Gator]

18 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, the first was Shireen; the second was Hodor.

I'd agree, if we were discussing show "oh shit moments".  Dear sweet Shireen for sure.  Ned Stark getting beheaded as well.  I was unsullied at that point, but read all the books after Season 1.

I think Femmy would agree that we were discussing "oh shit" book reveals, which seem to be far too elegant a solution for D&D only.    R+ L = J has been hinted at over and over in the books, but no confirmation yet.  But how Hodor got his name, and the creation of the White Walkers just hit the book readers/show viewers right out of left field.

As for show moments, I'd have to count so many other moments, too....from Season 7, I'd select Drogon overflying the Dothraki on the Field of Fire V.2.0, and of course, last Sunday's Blue Eyed Viserion. 

[Blonde Gator]

25 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

And why would he even know before the Starks? At that point, Baratheon was nobody of importance, so telling him wouldn't have accomplished anything.

 Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storms End, affianced to Lyanna Stark, and ward by fostering of Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale, and Warden of the East. 

It was exactly those three houses who called their banners to begin what came to be known as Robert's Rebellion.  Robert Baratheon was not the heir at the time, he was the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and had been for five years when the war began.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

 Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storms End, affianced to Lyanna Stark, and ward by fostering of Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale, and Warden of the East. 

It was exactly those three houses who called their banners to begin what came to be known as Robert's Rebellion.  Robert Baratheon was not the heir at the time, he was the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and had been for five years when the war began.

Let me rephrase, that. He was of no importance to the Starks in that instance. Yea it could've affected their alliances, but at that point, the most Robert could do was bitch.  The war didnt start until after the king actually threatened him and Ned after killing Rickard and Brandon.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

I'd agree, if we were discussing show "oh shit moments".  Dear sweet Shireen for sure.  Ned Stark getting beheaded as well.  I was unsullied at that point, but read all the books after Season 1.

I think Femmy would agree that we were discussing "oh shit" book reveals, which seem to be far too elegant a solution for D&D only.    R+ L = J has been hinted at over and over in the books, but no confirmation yet.  But how Hodor got his name, and the creation of the White Walkers just hit the book readers/show viewers right out of left field.

As for show moments, I'd have to count so many other moments, too....from Season 7, I'd select Drogon overflying the Dothraki on the Field of Fire V.2.0, and of course, last Sunday's Blue Eyed Viserion. 

D&D explicitly identified Shireen as being the first of the three moments, and Hodor the second.  The third is "from the very end".

[Edith]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

What works better in context of a TV series? Bran telling them in a monotone voice or a Giant ginger that the most of characters at Winterfell know coming in a the last moment to end an episode?

A good and coherent storyline? Again Bran not sharing with everyone about the wall falling is absurd. 

[WearyTraveler]

If Ice Dragon wasn't the third "oh, shit!" moment, that is a scary thought.  The only thing to top that would be for the Walkers to win the war and for Bran to be writing the final chapter from a very, very deep cave, as the Walkers are closing in; or from Ashai because Westeros went the way of The Doom

[YaddaYadda]

Bran has been next to useless this season. They should have nixed him south of the Wall this season until the last episode. If he was just going to sit there and do nothing, might as well have him at that weirwood near Castle Black sorting his information out and flying his ravens over the NK and Winterfell to see what was going on. 

They could even have had him reach out to Sansa, Arya and Jon through their dreams in an effort to guide them through the things they're facing.

About the oh, shit moment, I'd think that finding out who the third head of the dragon for me (as a reader) would be that, just because I don't think it's Tyrion. I also find that there have been a bunch of oh shit moments. The Red Wedding is one, and Jon's stabbing is another, because even though there's this feel that things are going to go down, I never expected them to go down like that. But that's really for me personally. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

I'd agree, if we were discussing show "oh shit moments".  Dear sweet Shireen for sure.  Ned Stark getting beheaded as well.  I was unsullied at that point, but read all the books after Season 1.

I think Femmy would agree that we were discussing "oh shit" book reveals, which seem to be far too elegant a solution for D&D only.    R+ L = J has been hinted at over and over in the books, but no confirmation yet.  But how Hodor got his name, and the creation of the White Walkers just hit the book readers/show viewers right out of left field.

As for show moments, I'd have to count so many other moments, too....from Season 7, I'd select Drogon overflying the Dothraki on the Field of Fire V.2.0, and of course, last Sunday's Blue Eyed Viserion. 

No, but having 98% of the action coming about as the result of a lie, or a failure to get known facts out, that's pretty 'Oh, shit.' But I agree, it's not likely to be THE 'Oh, Shit' #3.

[WearyTraveler]

23 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I also find that there have been a bunch of oh shit moments. The Red Wedding is one, and Jon's stabbing is another, because even though there's this feel that things are going to go down, I never expected them to go down like that. But that's really for me personally. 

As "oh, shit!" as those moments are, D&D were speaking about moments that have not been written (or at least published) yet.  They referred to three things Martin told them he had planned for the next books, so even book readers didn't know about them (i.e we knew about the Red Wedding because it was written and published, so, that doesn't count for these "oh, shit!" moments).

D&D said Shireen's burning was moment number one and Hodor's name origins was number two.  As far as I know they haven't said what moment number three is, and one would think that after last week's episode, if Ice Dragon were moment number three they would have said something already.  But perhaps they haven't because no one has bothered to ask?

[YaddaYadda]

23 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

As "oh, shit!" as those moments are, D&D were speaking about moments that have not been written (or at least published) yet.  They referred to three things Martin told them he had planned for the next books, so even book readers didn't know about them (i.e we knew about the Red Wedding because it was written and published, so, that doesn't count for these "oh, shit!" moments).

D&D said Shireen's burning was moment number one and Hodor's name origins was number two.  As far as I know they haven't said what moment number three is, and one would think that after last week's episode, if Ice Dragon were moment number three they would have said something already.  But perhaps they haven't because no one has bothered to ask?

I thought it was total and not what's left. So that makes more sense and I don't have any excuse why I misunderstood it that way, so let's pretend it never happened. 

I don't see Dany losing a dragon beyond the Wall, but I definitely see her losing a dragon if she ends up fighting (f)Aegon. Is it Teora Toland who talks about her dream of the dragons dancing and people dying in that sample chapter? 

Aren't we supposed to find out what happened in Summerhall or is that going to happen in the Dunc and Egg books? Because if I had to pick an "oh shit" moment, what happened there might be it.

[Blonde Gator]

55 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Bran has been next to useless this season. They should have nixed him south of the Wall this season until the last episode. If he was just going to sit there and do nothing, might as well have him at that weirwood near Castle Black sorting his information out and flying his ravens over the NK and Winterfell to see what was going on. 

They could even have had him reach out to Sansa, Arya and Jon through their dreams in an effort to guide them through the things they're facing.

About the oh, shit moment, I'd think that finding out who the third head of the dragon for me (as a reader) would be that, just because I don't think it's Tyrion. I also find that there have been a bunch of oh shit moments. The Red Wedding is one, and Jon's stabbing is another, because even though there's this feel that things are going to go down, I never expected them to go down like that. But that's really for me personally. 

Of course there are many, many "oh shit" moments, of different types.  My speculation, and Femmy's too, I believe, was that perhaps the WHY of Rhaegar/Lyanna's big secret will be one of them, which has NOT been hinted at before, either in the book or on the HBO series. 

Since I was the first to respond to Femmy's "oh shit" moment, I'd like to clarify that my reply was concerning "oh shit" moments on the show which have yet to be written by GRRM, but which had to have come from him alone, and not some figment of D&D's imagination to fill in plot holes post Season-5.   So I'm refraining from commenting anything that isn't within that specific framework. 

I really hope we get one more big NEW reveal that MUST have come from George (like Hodor & Making of the WW), because as far as I'm concerned, we are so far off book right now with motivations and the who/what/where/why of things (to check stuff of the list so D&D can move on to their big next project), that I expect very little resemblance to what is in GRRM's head, if we ever get THAT.  But that's a whine for another day.

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

A good and coherent storyline? Again Bran not sharing with everyone about the wall falling is absurd. 

You mean like Bronn being able to jump out of the way of direct dragon fire twice in the span of five minutes?

Or the NK throwing an ice javelin at a flying dragon instead of the one on the ground right in front of him?

How about Sam just randomly finding two books one happens to have the annulment or Rhaegar's marriage and the other was thar marks the spot where thee be Dragonglass.

Suicide mission beyond the wall instead of Dany and Jon fly up there on a quick recon.

Bran not telling Sansa what he knows about Littlefinger. 

The Starks have retaken the North from the Boltons Cersei and House Frey has been wiped out, who could have done it?

Zero backlash from the destruction of the Sept of Baelor. Guess all those religious zealots were fine with their spiritual leader being killed. Never mind Jaime never mentioning that she killed their Uncle too.

[Blonde Gator]

18 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

You mean like Bronn being able to jump out of the way of direct dragon fire twice in the span of five minutes?

Or the NK throwing an ice javelin at a flying dragon instead of the one on the ground right in front of him?

How about Sam just randomly finding two books one happens to have the annulment or Rhaegar's marriage and the other was thar marks the spot where thee be Dragonglass.

Suicide mission beyond the wall instead of Dany and Jon fly up there on a quick recon.

Bran not telling Sansa what he knows about Littlefinger. 

The Starks have retaken the North from the Boltons Cersei and House Frey has been wiped out, who could have done it?

Zero backlash from the destruction of the Sept of Baelor. Guess all those religious zealots were fine with their spiritual leader being killed. Never mind Jaime never mentioning that she killed their Uncle too.

I did see one reasonable explanation for the NK aiming at Viserion instead of Drogon. 

Viserion was flying straight at the NK, lit up and spewing flames.   Drogon was on the ground and shooting flames in another direction.  So even though Drogon was closer, and an easier target, the NK aimed at Viserion, because HE was an immediate threat to the NK. 

That's all I've got.  It helped suspend that little bit of disbelief for me.  Oh....and it would have been to similar to Jaime going for Drogon, but that's not a very good reason at all, is it?

As for the rest of your observations, totally agree.  They spent six seasons dragging things out, and now are going hellbent to the end, skipping important things, yet still having pointless "yada yada" scenes.  I'm sure we'd all do it differently if we could........but, at least we have forums like this where we can discuss amongst our fellow fans.  It helps!

EDIT:  No disrespect intended to Yadda Yadda, I just realized that might have looked kind of wanky after I posted it.  Cool screen name, though!

Edited August 27, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[GraceK]

Yea I'm pretty annoyed that Cersei just got away with mass murder of not only nobles but an powerful religious group as well. No one even blinked an eye...didn't the people start rioting during Joffrey reign at one point? Now the Kings mother kills everyone and takes the throne and there is literally crickets.  

I really hope to see her get hers at some point next season. She cannot suffer enough IMO

Edited August 27, 2017 by GraceK