Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

This is why I'm bugged by Mel's "I brought ice and fire together."

No, you charlatan, you did not. Even The Hound reads the flames better than that! 

I despise Melisandre, but in that scene she was correctly identifying Jon as ice and Daenerys as fire in the the context of the overall story and books. Together they are the "Song of Ice and Fire," but ice first suggests that Jon must have a more pivotal role than Daenerys, but I think that is clear that he needs her to defeat the Night King and his army. 

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

And this is very evident in the criticism that is often aimed at her - arrogant, entitled, the gendered insults, how dare this bitch ask Jon Snow to kneel , rooting for Jaime/Bronn to take down bitch, cunt Dany etc. If that was Jon down there burning enemy soldiers with dragons, fans would be whooping with delight.

I agree with you, but I think that these misogynistic and hateful attitudes toward not just Daenerys, but all the women in the show, come from a few vocal fans in a couple online forums. I don't think that this attitude is shared by most of the show's millions of the fans.

Edited August 6, 2017 by SimoneS

[Enigma X]

I don't agree with this Dany outrage that is blowing up the forum, but there were lots of people in a rage over Jon killing Ollie on this very forum.

[Edith]

12 hours ago, doram said:

I was referring to their symbols. John is KitN, and he was raised as Ned Stark's son, pet direwolf, Night's Watch etc... Physically, he resembles the Stark and to all appearances is a typical North man. Dany is Targaryen, with fire-proof-ness and dragons and raised in Essos, a warmer climate than even South of Westeros. Temperamentally, Jon is the cool, level-headed, kumbaya guy while Dany is the quick-tempered, "fire and blood" girl.  They complement each other nicely but reverse gendered. In most stories, Dany's character would be male and Jon's would be female. 

A pet direrwolf diferent that the rest. White with red eyes. And Jon is not kumbaya, at least not in the books. He can be quick-tempered tipe of person.

If the fire symbol in Jon wasn't important, then why GRRM chose a Targ as his father? He could have chosen anyone as his father but he chose a "pure" Targ plus a "pure" Stark to be his lineage.

When he gets to ride a dragon, would that make him fire too?

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I despise Melisandre, but in that scene she was correctly identifying Jon as ice and Daenerys as fire in the the context of the overall story and books. Together they are the "Song of Ice and Fire," but ice first suggests that Jon must have a more pivotal role than Daenerys, but I think that is clear that he needs her to defeat the Night King and his army. 

I agree that Jon will be pivotal in defeating the NK, but this is where we part company. Maybe "ice" is the Others and "fire" is the Targs (Dany in this case) and Jon is the balance because he is both. The word "song" in the books isn't just used for music, it's also used for fighting. Jon is pivotal because he is both. There's a whole side of what he is that has been ignored because he doesn't know. I don't know how the show will handle that, but I'm assuming they will handle it the same way they handled the resurrection. 

That's just my interpretation at least. Mel has much understanding of the prophecy as Rhaegar did.

Edited August 6, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[MarySNJ]

On 8/4/2017 at 6:35 PM, Blonde Gator said:

Hate to be such a bummer about the Happy Ending.....but there's the Azor Ahai / PTWP prophecy.  It may end up that one of them will need to kill the other in order to slay the Walkers and save humanity.  Remember Dany's prophecies regarding  Mounts / Fires / Treasons  (and one of each for love).  It seems that the "for love" for each of the three categories has yet to be fulfilled, and Jon fits all three prophecies "For Love" to a tee.   She needs a new mount (Ghost?) A new fire to light (the Sword) and a new Treason (plunging the sword, or being the recipient of the plunging sword).  In order to bring Lightbringer to bear, it needs to be lit, by the blood of someone you love.  Which of course, may be the ultimate betrayal, being betrayed (or betraying) the one you love.  I hope Dany & Jon have fun in the moment, because I just don't see it lasting in this story.

I read a theory that maybe the myth of Azor Ahai plunging his sword into Nissa Nissa is really a legend about the creation of Valyrian Steel. It may be that the reason it can't be recreated by smiths outside of Valyria is because blood magic is required to forge it. 

In any case, is there some place in the books that states that because the legendary Azor Ahai had to sacrifice Nissa Nissa to temper Lightbringer, that means Azor Ahai Reborn will have to do the same?  Also, I could be misremembering but I don't recall in the TV series that there has ever been any discussion of Azor Ahai having sacrificed his Beloved nor any suggestion that it will need to happen again. For that matter, we didn't get most of the prophesies from the books in the show, so I wouldn't count on it happening in the remaining episodes, unless Bran sees something in Weirwood-vision or Sam finds something in those old scrolls.  

I think prophesies in the books are written to be wildly misinterpreted, which GRRM  has said. If AA Reborn must repeat the same cycle that Original AA did, and a blood sacrifice is required, I can think of several options that don't involve either Jon or Daenerys having to sacrifice the other. For one thing, perhaps Rhaegar was right the first time and he was the PTWP, with Lyanna playing Nissa Nissa who died (sacrifice) in her bed of blood bringing Jon (Lightbringer) into the world. 

I fear that Jon and/or Dany will have to die to defeat or push back the Night King and his army, but I'm not convinced that the prophesies of old from the books will play out exactly has they happened the first time as the story progresses, or in the TV series this season or next.

[Eyes High]

32 minutes ago, doram said:

I'm looking forward to seeing Jon and Dany riding side by side on their dragons. I've never quite understood the technical obstacles of this so I hope HBO will have a big enough budget by them to show Rhaegal up close and for more than a fleeting glimpse especially as they'll need to put a little more money in the Viserion budget to fully depict him as an ice dragon.

Of course, it's entirely possible that Jon doesn't become Rhaegal's dragon rider and instead that'll be their son, "Rhaego".

Based on the leaks and the lack of Jon/Rhaegal goodness in Season 7, some fans are already writing off Jon as a dragonrider. I'm more comfortable writing off Tyrion as a dragonrider, myself, based on Viserion's death (since he was the dragon book fans expected him to ride).

I am a little worried about Jon's one meaningful dragon interaction in Season 7 being with Drogon, since in book canon dragons only accept one rider at a time, and for Jon to ride Drogon, Dany would need to die (which suggests that Jon will ride Drogon after Dany dies). I guess the writers can change that for the show, though, just as in the show the writers have written it so that dragonglass can kill wights as well as WWs. 

[Blonde Gator]

29 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I read a theory that maybe the myth of Azor Ahai plunging his sword into Nissa Nissa is really a legend about the creation of Valyrian Steel. It may be that the reason it can't be recreated by smiths outside of Valyria is because blood magic is required to forge it. 

In any case, is there some place in the books that states that because the legendary Azor Ahai had to sacrifice Nissa Nissa to temper Lightbringer, that means Azor Ahai Reborn will have to do the same?  Also, I could be misremembering but I don't recall in the TV series that there has ever been any discussion of Azor Ahai having sacrificed his Beloved nor any suggestion that it will need to happen again. For that matter, we didn't get most of the prophesies from the books in the show, so I wouldn't count on it happening in the remaining episodes, unless Bran sees something in Weirwood-vision or Sam finds something in those old scrolls.  

I think prophesies in the books are written to be wildly misinterpreted, which GRRM  has said. If AA Reborn must repeat the same cycle that Original AA did, and a blood sacrifice is required, I can think of several options that don't involve either Jon or Daenerys having to sacrifice the other. For one thing, perhaps Rhaegar was right the first time and he was the PTWP, with Lyanna playing Nissa Nissa who died (sacrifice) in her bed of blood bringing Jon (Lightbringer) into the world. 

I fear that Jon and/or Dany will have to die to defeat or push back the Night King and his army, but I'm not convinced that the prophesies of old from the books will play out exactly has they happened the first time as the story progresses, or in the TV series this season or next.

You've made some excellent points regarding the prophecies.  The thing that is frustrating is that some of them are quite easily interpreted, and spot on, and many others are rather vague and open to much interpretation.  It seems that the further these prophecies get from the source, the more garbled they get.  The Ghost of High Heart (possible ancient Child of the Forest) was spot on about Balon being murdered by a Faceless Man, for example, or Maggie the Frog's predictions for Cersei's future.  I'm disappointed we have no more clues about Quaith, or her prophecies in the series after seeing her in Quarth.  The visions Dany saw in the House of the Undying are pretty much spot on, but a little more vague as to WHAT fulfills them, as you pointed out.  But I expect all of them to be "fulfilled" in some way we can understand.  Bran, who is directly hooked in to the Old God's magic, via the Weirwood trees, sees the future most clearly of all, but I think that's something he's NOT going to share with mere mortals.  I suspect he will still try to affect the future, but without letting anyone know he's trying to do that.  We may get some disastrous effects (a la poor Hodor) before Bran realizes the ink is dry as well.  Not to get too wonky or off topic in this prophecy discussion, but the often-repeated CotF "spirals" mean something....and I suspect they may have to do with the circularity of time loops, but it's just a feeling.  Dunno.

OTOH, some prophecies, like TPTWP are far more vague, and the narrator of the original prophecies are many times removed from the actual source, or are cemented in cultural lore (Azor Ahai)....and I've never been convinced that TPTWP & Azor Ahai are one in the same.  They sound alike, but Azor Ahai is an Essos-based prophecy, and we're not sure where Rhaegar found the original TPTWP one....although Maester Ameon was aware of it, so perhaps it's Valyrian in nature, but that's the point, we don't know, and it's kept vague, probably for a reason.

What we do know is that magic is back in the world since Dany hatched her dragons, in a big way, and blood magic seems to be the strongest of all.  Alas, we will just have to wait and see.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I agree that Jon will be pivotal in defeating the NK, but this is where we part company. Maybe "ice" is the Others and "fire" is the Targs (Dany in this case) and Jon is the balance because he is both. The word "song" in the books isn't just used for music, it's also used for fighting. Jon is pivotal because he is both. There's a whole side of what he is that has been ignored because he doesn't know. I don't know how the show will handle that, but I'm assuming they will handle it the same way they handled the resurrection. 

That's just my interpretation at least. Mel has much understanding of the prophecy as Rhaegar did.

I interpreted "song" as a metaphor for "journey together," basically an alternative to "fellowship." While I confess that I consider Martin a horrific writer which is why I mostly skimmed to the end of first book, I concluded that we would always get to where we are right now in the show;  Jon and Daenerys meeting and allying to fight the Night King and ultimately determine the winner of the game of thrones. From here on, it is ice and fire together. IMO, if Jon being both Stark and Targaryen was enough, there would be no need for Daenerys' to be included in the book at all. 

 

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Unpopular opinion? But I'm not sure how much GRRM has worked out the details of what prophecies will be fulfilled/averted/or were misunderstood from the get-go in this story.

Not unpopular with me. I have never believed that most of what Martin says about the books. I think that he knows where he wants to end, but doesn't have all the details about how to get there and by attempting to extend the overarching story he has added details and events that he likely doesn't know how to resolve which is probably one of the reasons that he is unable to complete the books.  

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

The show has sadly forgotten Dany's Targaryen visions and her experience in the House of the Undying. The WW/wights/Long Night is all new to her now when the seeds of her knowledge of this and importance in this battle were sown earlier. Just like Aemon panicking over her at the Wall. Another seed that was sown to be insignificant. I guess they wanted conflict before continuity. Or they simply forgot. Either way, it's shoddy storytelling.

Good point. I forgot them also. However, like you said if the show had her remember her visions, Daenerys would be more open to Jon telling her about the army of the dead, there would be less conflict for them to overcome.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

OTOH, some prophecies, like TPTWP are far more vague, and the narrator of the original prophecies are many times removed from the actual source, or are cemented in cultural lore (Azor Ahai)....and I've never been convinced that TPTWP & Azor Ahai are one in the same.  They sound alike, but Azor Ahai is an Essos-based prophecy, and we're not sure where Rhaegar found the original TPTWP one....although Maester Ameon was aware of it, so perhaps it's Valyrian in nature, but that's the point, we don't know, and it's kept vague, probably for a reason.

All we are told is that it's an ancient prophecy. But I'm willing to bet that whatever the Targs know/knew, that they have been obsessing over, is probably tied to Daenys the Dreamer's "Signs and Portents". Whatever the prophecy Mel has given us, I think whatever scroll they have furthers that. Marwyn found two more scrolls, allegedly, so that's likely coming into play.

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I interpreted "song" as a metaphor for "journey together," basically an alternative to "fellowship." While I confess that I consider Martin a horrific writer which is why I mostly skimmed to the end of first book, I concluded that we would always get to where we are right now in the show;  Jon and Daenerys meeting and allying to fight the Night King and ultimately determine the winner of the game of thrones. From here on, it is ice and fire together. IMO, if Jon being both Stark and Targaryen was enough, there would be no need for Daenerys' to be included in the book at all. 

I agree that Dany is absolutely needed for the endgame. Bran is also needed. 

Oddly enough, the people I am looking the most forward to are the scholars, like Rodrik the Reader (go back to Harlaw!), Sam, Willas Tyrell...I am so looking forward to the way these people will hopefully come together and piece all of this. 

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

All we are told is that it's an ancient prophecy. But I'm willing to bet that whatever the Targs know/knew, that they have been obsessing over, is probably tied to Daenys the Dreamer's "Signs and Portents". Whatever the prophecy Mel has given us, I think whatever scroll they have furthers that. Marwyn found two more scrolls, allegedly, so that's likely coming into play.

I wonder why we have Maester Foghorn instead of Marwyn?  That's somewhat puzzling, although perhaps D&D did that "substitution" because they didn't want to get into the politics of the Citadel and their institutional bias against all things having to do with magic.  I was rather disappointed that Marwyn's story line was changed.  I don't remember if show Mirri Maz Duur mentioned him on the show or not, before she performed her blood magic on Khal Drogo, or afterward, either. 

[Edith]

8 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I interpreted "song" as a metaphor for "journey together," basically an alternative to "fellowship." While I confess that I consider Martin a horrific writer which is why I mostly skimmed to the end of first book, I concluded that we would always get to where we are right now in the show;  Jon and Daenerys meeting and allying to fight the Night King and ultimately determine the winner of the game of thrones. From here on, it is ice and fire together. IMO, if Jon being both Stark and Targaryen was enough, there would be no need for Daenerys' to be included in the book at all. 

 

Not unpopular with me. I have never believed that most of what Martin says about the books. I think that he knows where he wants to end, but doesn't have all the details about how to get there and by attempting to extend the overarching story he has added details and events that he likely doesn't know how to resolve which is probably one of the reasons that he is unable to complete the books.  

 

Good point. I forgot them also. However, like you said if the show had her remember her visions, Daenerys would be more open to Jon telling her about the army of the dead, there would be less conflict for them to overcome.

That's not true, If that was the case then there would be no need for Bran or Arya, etc. Just because Jon is not the ice part of dany fire doesn't mean that the other one is not necessary or have an important part to do. Also I find absurd that only Jon and Dany can defeat WW, Jojen already said back in season 4, that no queen or king can defeat them. 

Saying that Jon is not Fire and only Ice, dismisses an important part for his character. 

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

In any case, is there some place in the books that states that because the legendary Azor Ahai had to sacrifice Nissa Nissa to temper Lightbringer, that means Azor Ahai Reborn will have to do the same?  Also, I could be misremembering but I don't recall in the TV series that there has ever been any discussion of Azor Ahai having sacrificed his Beloved nor any suggestion that it will need to happen again.

Yes! Thank you! The sword was forged, and then it was lost.  I bet you it's one of the Valyrian Steel ones that keep popping up.  I'd even put some money on Jon's current sword being the one, what with it being the northernmost V. steel sword we've heard off.  Perhaps after AA perished, the sword was entrusted to house Mormont (or the founder of House Mormont) for safe keeping, and, as so many other things about the WW, the CotF, and Long Night, its history was forgotten.

[SimoneS]

18 minutes ago, Edith said:

That's not true, If that was the case then there would be no need for Bran or Arya, etc. Just because Jon is not the ice part of dany fire doesn't mean that the other one is not necessary or have an important part to do. Also I find absurd that only Jon and Dany can defeat WW, Jojen already said back in season 4, that no queen or king can defeat them. 

Saying that Jon is not Fire and only Ice, dismisses an important part for his character. 

I did write in an earlier comment, "together they are the "Song of Ice and Fire," but ice first suggests that Jon must have a more pivotal role than Daenerys, but I think that is clear that he needs her to defeat the Night King and his army."  Typically in sci fantasy novels, titles and sub-titles are predictive of the overall story. I don't see Martin's book being any different. There are always characters like Bran and Arya outside the lead(s) who have critical roles to play. While I am not not dismissing Jon's Targaryen blood, I definitely think that Daenerys represents fire which is why she has a prominent role. I am stopping now because I am not sure this discussion belongs on this thread.

[YaddaYadda]

47 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Yes! Thank you! The sword was forged, and then it was lost.  I bet you it's one of the Valyrian Steel ones that keep popping up.  I'd even put some money on Jon's current sword being the one, what with it being the northernmost V. steel sword we've heard off.  Perhaps after AA perished, the sword was entrusted to house Mormont (or the founder of House Mormont) for safe keeping, and, as so many other things about the WW, the CotF, and Long Night, its history was forgotten.

Like a whole bunch of people, I'm more on the side of Dawn on this one. It's the Excalibur of swords. Get it? Arthur, Excalibur...

I'll see myself out.

(I know that Dawn isn't part of the show story, which booo!)

Edited August 6, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Pogojoco]

The "ice" and "fire" might not even refer to any individuals, but rather the return of magic to the world- meaning the return of "ice" (the White Walkers) and the return of "fire" (the dragons) and how those things affect the people living in the world. 

 

Both have already had political implications- Dany can claim the Iron Throne by birthright, but Robert Baratheon won it by conquest. She has to win it back, and she can with her dragons. And like Tywin tells Arya at Harrenhal in the show (interactions I miss all the time- Charles Dance is AMAZING) "Aegon changed the rules." 

 

The reason Jon was crowned King in the North was because he was deemed best capable leader in fighting the White Walkers, even though he's the bastard son. It's the only reason he went to Dragonstone and met his aunt. He requires a different type of magic to counteract the malevolent magic brewing in the North. 

It doesn't need a romance or be reflected in personalities of Rhaeger or Lyanna or Jon or Danaerys. The song of ice and fire is magic returning to the world, myth becoming real and how those things change the rules. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Pogojoco

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

What we do know is that magic is back in the world since Dany hatched her dragons, in a big way, and blood magic seems to be the strongest of all.  

I'm not sure magic returned when Dany hatched the dragons, after all, we start the story (book and show) with the WW.  Other characters tell us they haven't been seen in years, so much so, that people don't believe they exist anymore.  But, when we first enter into this story, they are already there.  If we believe the show, that WW were created by the CotF, then we know that magic wasn't completely dead before Dany hatched the dragons.

Also, the direwolves return to house Stark, signals that magic was already brewing, they hadn't seen a direwolf for ages either.

[Pogojoco]

9 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I'm not sure magic returned when Dany hatched the dragons, after all, we start the story (book and show) with the WW.  Other characters tell us they haven't been seen in years, so much so, that people don't believe they exist anymore.  But, when we first enter into this story, they are already there.  If we believe the show, that WW were created by the CotF, then we know that magic wasn't completely dead before Dany hatched the dragons.

Also, the direwolves return to house Stark, signals that magic was already brewing, they hadn't seen a direwolf for ages either.

Yeah, completely. That's reflected in that whole first section with the Stark family in the first episode. Ned executes the deserter, who is babbling about White Walkers. "I saw what I saw. I saw the White Walkers." Ned goes to talk to Bran, talks about "man who passes the sentence..." and Bran asks about the man saying he saw White Walkers. Ned says, "White Walkers haven't been seen for thousands of years" and Bran concludes the man was mad.

 

The direwolves being discovered happens on the same trip. Theon has never seen one before "It's a freak!" when he sees the size of the mother. 

"There are no direwolves south of the Wall" "Now there are four...."  Ned decides to kill them, Jon convinces him to spare them. The grown ups are noticeably disquieted. 

Magic is back before dragons. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Katsullivan]

Direwolves exist. In the world of Westeros they are near extinction but they aren't inherently magical, except the ones that are "bonded" to the Stark children. Now the question is whether that's because the direwolves are magic themselves or because the Stark children have First Men/warg magic in their blood like that wildling did.

If we want to argue whether magic existed in this world pre-dragons, we only need to look at the Wall which is a piece of magical architecture. Dany hatching her dragons released a quantity of magic/ an ability to manipulate magic that had apparently been lost for a long time. It's a theme repeated several times in the books. 

17 minutes ago, doram said:

The disagreement has certainly come a long way from the statement I originally made, which merely observed that Dany/Jon are playing the reverse of stereotypically gendered roles in the narrative - with Jon as the "uniter"/peace-maker/mercy-side of the mercy-to-justice scale and Dany as the Warrior/justice-side of the mercy-to-justice scale plus destructive powers of dragons and fire. Somehow it's devolved into whether or not Dany is a title character in the story. 

GRRM said that the title works on several levels, and has several meanings. It's entirely possible that it means Jon's heritage and Jon & Dany coming together in every sense of the word (including sexual romantic) to fight the coming doom. Boatsex is happening, and a little ice+fire Targaryen baby will be next. 

[SeanC]

While Jon in theory has "fire" parentage, as far as nurture and inclination go he's 100% ice.

[Pogojoco]

29 minutes ago, doram said:

I always thought it as all the events being tied together. The White Walkers rising and dragon eggs being given to the first Targaryen in almost two centuries with the ability to hatch them. 

Star Wars fan here, so I've always believe in the themes of Balance. 

Are direwolves magical creatures or just rare South of the Wall?

Ser Rodrik says definitively "There are no direwolves south of the Wall." Also, the magic bit might be how they got there for them to find. A wolf can't climb the Wall. 

 

Also, Jon isn't a warg in the show, but I suspect his warging ability will help in his dragon riding.  Perhaps Bran will warg into Rhaegal in the show. "You'll never walk, but you will fly." 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Katsullivan]

On 8/5/2017 at 1:16 AM, Raachel2008 said:

In the books, maybe. But on screen the whole 'I'm the last dragon' thing has been used almost as an badge of honor. You know those moms at PTA who are oh, so sorry, yet so proud that their children have the worst case ever of lactose intolerance or allergies or whatever, and, no, no other child couold possibly have it as bad as their? Sort of that. Anyway, a huge part of Dany's identity is about being the last Targaryen, rightful heir, etc, as much as Jon's is being Ned Stark's bastard son. The way I see the it, this should be what really really really messes up with them and not the fact they are aunt and nephew, which is not to say it won't bother them. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I have already seen a few articles saying that Jon/Dany is the worst idea ever because they are related, and many fans seem to feel that way, while ignoring what that info really means to the characters IMO.

YMMV, but I've always read her declaration of being the Last Targaryen as her pride of being from her House, and having the blood of the dragon, of her pride at surviving, and as pride of her House surviving through her. 

I distinctly remember a scene where Tyrion and Dany discuss about her being disadvantaged by being the last member of her House, and the emphasis was on her isolation. The TV show fails in many places, but by keeping her brother's names to the dragons, it's still paying lip-service to her feelings of isolation and loneliness. Of course, this also tied to her "barren-ness" and her awareness that her House ends with her, and the way she cherishes her dragons as babies. 

[YaddaYadda]

As far as the direwolves go, doesn't the magic have more to do with the children being able to warg them south of the Wall? Warging is something that's common enough beyond the Wall, but as far as we know, isn't south of it. Beyond the Wall, there are White Walkers and the children of the forest still exist and Bloodraven has been wizarding from his tree for some forty-five years. Jon can't sense Ghost once they are separated by the Wall, but Arya is able to warg Nymeria even though they're a continent apart. It just seems like the Wall kept magic out of the south.

Dany hatched her dragons with blood sacrifice and fire and blood. And the magic at the Wall seems to have always been there. Maester Aemon implies that the reason he lived for so long is because of the Wall. His mind starts to go and his body fails him the further he gets from it until he finally dies.  And Mel says that her magic is much stronger at the Wall than it ever was and that she doesn't need her little tricks so much anymore. The north is a place where they still worship the old gods and Jon senses their power beyond the Wall. 

Magic was never completely gone, it just seems to have been enhanced in places like Qarth/wherever Dany travels with her dragons. 

There's a passage in the books, it's a Jon chapter in AGOT, I think, where Sam tells him that his father brought warlocks from Qarth to turn Sam into something he wasn't. They bathed him in blood and whatever else and it did not work and Randyll Tarly went Randyll Tarly on them. It's interesting to throw that into the whole magic bit because we have seen what the warlocks are capable of. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Blonde Gator]

29 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I'm not sure magic returned when Dany hatched the dragons, after all, we start the story (book and show) with the WW.  Other characters tell us they haven't been seen in years, so much so, that people don't believe they exist anymore.  But, when we first enter into this story, they are already there.  If we believe the show, that WW were created by the CotF, then we know that magic wasn't completely dead before Dany hatched the dragons.

Also, the direwolves return to house Stark, signals that magic was already brewing, they hadn't seen a direwolf for ages either.

My point wasn't that magic was entirely gone from the world, but its significance had been reduced in importance as time has elapsed, and people have forgotten, plus the Maesters have done their level best to obliterate both the practice of magic, and the belief in magic.  The CotF have been unseen for hundreds of years, and are believed to be dead.  But the Wall is still warded at the beginning of the show, it is known.  Magic and magical beings had not been eradicated at the beginning of the tale, rather, they had been marginalized to the point of being ridiculed in Westeros.  Dragons have been gone for years and years, to the point that no one really believes in them any longer.   Walkers are believed to be gone for 8,000 years, only we, the audience, knows differently.

Tyrion talks of grumps and snarkins at the Wall.   Only old Nan still talks about magical things in her stories.  Maester Luwin tries to dissuade Bran from talk of "visions" as Bran's greenseeing abilities begin to awaken. 

The red meteor was a harbinger of magic returning to the world.  Osha (wildings seemed to be more aware of magic in the world than the southron peoples) seemed to be the only person to recognize the meteor for what it was.  At this point, what small evidence of magic in the world was the strongest at the Wall and beyond (because CotF), and in the Far East of Planetos, Asshai, Yi Ti, and to a lesser extent, Quarth. 

As the story progresses, we see magic and people's belief in it come to the fore.  When the direwolves showed up south of the Wall, it was just "strange", and not seen as magical at the time.  But as the story has unfolded, we are seeing (and being glimpses of understanding) of the magical people and things in the world.  Mirri Maz Duur's blood magic, killing Rhaego (the Stallion who will mount the world), and "saving" Drogo.  Dany's revenge is the blood magic that hatches her eggs, but she doesn't have a clue about how she did it, she just did it.   Mel's powers are enhanced at the Wall.  Maggie the Frog, Ghost of High Heart, etc.  Whether it's real magic, or Mel's illusions, people are beginning to believe again.  And I suspect that the BELIEF in magic has much to do with it working well, or not. 

People are surely going to believe once there's an Ice Dragon for them to see, though. 

Hey, if we can set aside LittleFingers miraculous space/time transporter, why not magic growing exponentially in Planetos, without sufficient (book) explanations from D&D?

4 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

As far as the direwolves go, doesn't the magic have more to do with the children being able to warg them south of the Wall? Warging is something that's common enough beyond the Wall, but as far as we know, isn't south of it. Beyond the Wall, there are White Walkers and the children of the forest still exist and Bloodraven has been wizarding from his tree for some forty-five years. Dany hatched her dragons with blood sacrifice and fire and blood. And the magic at the Wall seems to have always been there. Maester Aemon implies that the reason he lived for so long is because of the Wall. His mind starts to go and his body fails him the further he gets from it until he finally dies.  And Mel says that her magic is much stronger at the Wall than it ever was and that she doesn't need her little tricks so much anymore. The north is a place where they still worship the old gods and Jon senses their power beyond the Wall. 

Magic was never completely gone, it just seems to have been enhanced in places like Qarth/wherever Dany travels with her dragons. 

There's a passage in the books, it's a Jon chapter in AGOT, I think, where Sam tells him that his father brought warlocks from Qarth to turn Sam into something he wasn't. They bathed him in blood and whatever else and it did not work and Randyll Tarly went Randyll Tarly on them. It's interesting to throw that into the whole magic bit because we have seen what the warlocks are capable of. 

Heh.  GMTA.  You filled in some of the isolated examples I was missing, thanks.

[MrsR]

Excellent discussion. One of my criticisms of the HBO show vs the books has been that they didn't capitalize on the rise of magic in the world, the portents.  Magic had gone dormant, just like the Force had in the Star Wars sagas. What triggered it's rise isn't clear but I wonder if GRRM meant it to be seasonal.

 

Also regarding another discussion upthread, Gendry is a Targaryan as well.

[theschnauzers]

2 minutes ago, MrsR said:

 

Also regarding another discussion upthread, Gendry is a Targaryan as well.

Not to nitpick, but having rewatched the entire series just before season 7 premiered, I don't recall that being mentioned, just that he was one of Robert's bastards, but one who was warned away from KL and avoided being killed as the others were. Where was the Targaryan connection mentioned?

[MrsR]

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryan.

[Pogojoco]

4 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

Not to nitpick, but having rewatched the entire series just before season 7 premiered, I don't recall that being mentioned, just that he was one of Robert's bastards, but one who was warned away from KL and avoided being killed as the others were. Where was the Targaryan connection mentioned?

Robert, Stannis and Renly have a Targ grandmother. It's one of the reasons Robert got the Iron Throne, as opposed to Ned or Jon Arryn. 

Rhaelle Targaryen married Lyonel Baratheon (I looked it up.) Their son Steffon is Robert's dad. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Notwisconsin]

44 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

 Magic and magical beings had not been eradicated at the beginning of the tale, rather, they had been marginalized to the point of being ridiculed in Westeros.  Dragons have been gone for years and years, to the point that no one really believes in them any longer.  

  Whether it's real magic, or Mel's illusions, people are beginning to believe again.  And I suspect that the BELIEF in magic has much to do with it working well, or not. 

 

Mel's illusions ARE real magic, that's the point. GLAMOR and the Ghost that kills Renly, were real magic. Everybody believes in dragons, they went extinct a mere 175 years earlier, and there are people who knew people who had seen them. In Essos, Dany meets people who can do magic,

[MrsR]

Also Varys lost his naughty bits to someone who if they didn't actually have magic, believed in it.

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

Mel's illusions ARE real magic, that's the point. GLAMOR and the Ghost that kills Renly, were real magic. Everybody believes in dragons, they went extinct a mere 175 years earlier, and there are people who knew people who had seen them. In Essos, Dany meets people who can do magic,

Most of Mel's "magic" is merley illusion, she says as much IN the show, to Selyse, Stannis' wife, in the infamous bathtub scene.  She uses lots of potions and glamors, which misdirect the eye and the senses (as do the Faceless Men).  Without her rubies around her neck, Mel is a however-many-hundred year old crone. 

We see many of the characters say emphatically that the dragons are gone, and aren't coming back.  When they finally see them, the look of disbelief is clear on almost every single "non-believer's" face. 

The real magic is in the believing of magic.  Selyse "sees" young Mel, because she believes.  As magic comes back into the world, more people believe, the more people believe, the more magic comes back into the world (and the Maesters don't like it at all).

[Notwisconsin]

46 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Most of Mel's "magic" is merley illusion, she says as much IN the show, to Selyse, Stannis' wife, in the infamous bathtub scene.  She uses lots of potions and glamors, which misdirect the eye and the senses (as do the Faceless Men).  Without her rubies around her neck, Mel is a however-many-hundred year old crone. 

We see many of the characters say emphatically that the dragons are gone, and aren't coming back.  When they finally see them, the look of disbelief is clear on almost every single "non-believer's" face. 

The real magic is in the believing of magic.  Selyse "sees" young Mel, because she believes.  As magic comes back into the world, more people believe, the more people believe, the more magic comes back into the world (and the Maesters don't like it at all).

"glamors" is magic, whatever that is. yes, without the rubies around her neck, Mel is a many hundred years old crone. Her very, very long life is due to something, the glamours are due to something, the thing that killed Renly was something. What that something is is what GRRM calls magic. Belief has nothing to do with it. The week after next's total ecliplse will bend "space-time" Same thing. Magic is science you cannot understand.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

"glamors" is magic, whatever that is. yes, without the rubies around her neck, Mel is a many hundred years old crone. Her very, very long life is due to something, the glamours are due to something, the thing that killed Renly was something. What that something is is what GRRM calls magic. Belief has nothing to do with it. The week after next's total ecliplse will bend "space-time" Same thing. Magic is science you cannot understand.

Also, Mel's necklace isn't just a glamour.  It clearly affects her physical capabilities.

[GrailKing]

On 8/3/2017 at 0:23 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't wait to see all the internet reactions (and YouTube videos) of people when Boatsex happens.  The Burlington Bar video footage is going to be a riot, I'm sure.

I love the burlington bar vids.

[YaddaYadda]

Is it possible that Mel's ruby be similar magic to what's keeping Bloodraven alive in his cave?

Also, speaking of structures, and I did forget to mention it earlier, Storm's End has spells woven into it's walls, and wards off other magic, that's why Mel had to pass under it to birth her shadow baby. 

[GrailKing]

I confess my sin, I'm weak ...... and it was glorious !

9 PM can't get here quick enough.

Edited August 6, 2017 by GrailKing

[SeanC]

I can't recall if this was FrikiDoctor's speculation or an actual spoiler, but the comment about Sansa finding Arya's bag of faces and being alarmed by it made me wonder, assuming that's true, does Sansa get any onscreen explanation for that in the rest of the season?  Or is their heartwarming final scene that we've seen part of the script for also implicitly about Sansa accepting that Arya likes to keep Dahmer-esque grisly trophies of people she kills?  Heh.

Edited August 6, 2017 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

I can't spoil, but there may be some questions, that both sisters need to get off their chest.

As GRRM say they have issues.

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah, isn't Sansa kind of hypocritical for judging Arya and her bag of faces? She fed a guy to dogs...

[SeanC]

[SimoneS]

I cannot wait to see how many of those lords and soldiers bend the knee now. There were a lot of them in that preview.

[SeanC]

One of the more notable differences between the leaked outline for 704 and the finished product is the curtailing of the Bran/Arya/Sansa scene to exclude the extended discussion about the dagger's origins.  I'm guessing somewhere along the way they realized it's not a good idea to highlight that Bran could solve the mystery at any point and is simply choosing not to for lack of interest.

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

One of the more notable differences between the leaked outline for 704 and the finished product is the curtailing of the Bran/Arya/Sansa scene to exclude the extended discussion about the dagger's origins.  I'm guessing somewhere along the way they realized it's not a good idea to highlight that Bran could solve the mystery at any point and is simply choosing not to for lack of interest.

That and Tyrion's objection to Dany's use of Dragons went more from an image thing to a worried about her life thing.

 

I know I should ignore this stuff. But damn it now that it's in my head something's nagging me about that seemingless pointless scene with Missandei. I need to stop listening to theories.

[Edith]

"Eastwatch" is officially confirmed by HBO as the name for episode 5

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/episodes/7/65-65-eastwatch/index.html

[Azi]

At least death by dragonfire should be very quick.

Still wish Dickon would survive cause it just seems like the easy was to have Sam inherit in the end when the Watch probably isn't needed anymore. 

Would prefer Dickon and Sam to work together. Oh well.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, isn't Sansa kind of hypocritical for judging Arya and her bag of faces? She fed a guy to dogs...

She didn't keep bits of him as souvenirs...she wouldn't realize the usefulness of faces, thinking that Arya was just collecting grisly trophies of her kills. It'll be...interesting...when Arya shows what they're good for.

[Minneapple]

I don't mind Dany using the dragons on the battlefield, but saying "join me or die" is really kind of shitty. Like what kind of queen rules through fear and threats of death?

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, isn't Sansa kind of hypocritical for judging Arya and her bag of faces? She fed a guy to dogs...

Sansa didn't just feed "a guy" to the dogs. She fed the guy who raped and tortured her to dogs (Arya would be proud). She also didn't keep his body parts in a bag. I think most people would be alarmed by finding a bag of faces.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Minneapple

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

That and Tyrion's objection to Dany's use of Dragons went more from an image thing to a worried about her life thing

Plus Jon does not tell her to not roast soldiers.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I've been trying to forget the leaks after reading them months ago, but was it revealed how the hell Jaime survives and avoids capture? It's a shame that they didn't go the route of him being a hostage again. 

[SimoneS]

On 8/7/2017 at 0:23 AM, Minneapple said:

I don't mind Dany using the dragons on the battlefield, but saying "join me or die" is really kind of shitty. Like what kind of queen rules through fear and threats of death?

Throughout history, all absolute queens, kings, empresses, emperors, etc. Daenerys is better than most. From the promo, she is giving the Lannister bannermen a second chance to bend the knee.  They refused to answer her call to attend her at Dragonstone, they just killed her allies, and stole gold and food. They are lucky she didn't burn them all to a crisp instantly which would be a good death compared to real life punishments for treason against the crown in Europe before the 19th century.

 

On 8/7/2017 at 1:33 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

I've been trying to forget the leaks after reading them months ago, but was it revealed how the hell Jaime survives and avoids capture? It's a shame that they didn't go the route of him being a hostage again. 

I think the leaks said that Bronn pulls him out of the water, but didn't specifically say how he avoids capture. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by SimoneS

[YaddaYadda]

I was really surprised that the episode ended like that. I was expecting to see Bronn pull Jaime out of the water.