Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Edith]

16 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Great, magical infertility babies *eyeroll*

Well, if true, that's terrible writing directly from the infertility bingo board. 

Anything to do with Dany's fertility (she's barren and useless! she's infertile and now pregnant!) is gross and should be dropped from the show.

Jon kneeling really disturbs me for some reason and I haven't quite figured out why.

Also paralleling Jon/Dany with R/L. Lyanna died in childbirth just as the popular theory for Dany dying in childbirth and reuniting with Drogo as Mirri prophesy said. 

 

Interesing that if Jon name is Aegon in the books too, he would be Aegon VII. 

This little bit courtesy of J. Stargaryen:

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If Jon's true name is Aegon, there is a fair chance he could turn out to be the seventh King Aegon, following fAegon as Aegon VI in a short stint, or as a pretender. Which, btw, could provide a possible spin on the Elder Brother's famous quote: “Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

GRRM has already introduced the idea of rival Aegons in TPatQ and TRP. Aegon the Elder ruled first briefly as Aegon II (even numbered=bad Aegons), and was succeeded by the Younger as Aegon III (odd numbered=good Aegons). Foreshadowing for Aegons VI and VII? Interestingly, Aegon III was known for always dressing in black.

 

[anamika]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Everybody knew LF was on the Lannisters' side.  What they didn't know was that he betrayed Ned, or that he arranged the whole war by murdering Jon Arryn.

What difference would betrayal make? He supported the enemy against the Starks. That does not count? It mattered to Sansa when she wanted children punished for their fathers siding against the Starks. And the Vale Lords don't care that he murdered Lysa (Where Sansa lied to help him), but they suddenly care that he murdered Jon?

And again, what is Sansa's contribution to all this? Why is she pretending to convict Arya for treachery instead of bringing Arya to Bran and telling her the truth as well? She asks Bran to 'investigate' but does not have the good sense to keep an eye on someone like LF or warn her sister?

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

This sounds like them ticking something from their list with the Golden Company. As far as Meereen goes, Dany told Mel that the red priests helped bring and keep the peace there. I guess Daario will be free to come to Westeros if he wants to. 

I can see Daario showing up with the Seven Sons and thousands more fighters from Mereen just as things are looking bleak for Daenerys' army.

 

13 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Yohn Royce should be cheering from the sidelines.  

You know he will looking satisfied as hell. Sweet Robin will be only person to miss Littlefinger and even he will move pass it quickly.

I still think that the wight capture and presenting it to Cersei is dumb, but the fall out sounds good.

Edited July 29, 2017 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

Heh so Jon, Dany and Tyrion are all going to be having a few conversations about how Dany is 200% barren, and Jon is totally cool with her barrenness. Why I am going to be shocked, shocked I tell you when it turns out Jon's super sperm impregnates her with a boatsex!baby :p

 

Boaterys? Boatghar? Boatgon?

 

Eta: I really hate the idea of Dany dying whilst giving birth to 'lil Boaty.  Really hoping that isn't her endgame.

Edited July 29, 2017 by bubble sparkly

[Enigma X]

Personally, I would have liked for Jon's name to be Jahaerys but TV show folk never heard of the person he would have been named for (or barely). I think it will be Aegon although Aemon would make more sense.

[SimoneS]

47 minutes ago, doram said:

I am amazed at how upsetting I find this!

Still holding out hope that it was a mis-translation. :P

OK, now that I've read the Aegon VII theory by @Edith I'm cool with it. 

I have been reading some of the conversation on FreeFolk and there is a convincing argument being made that Lyanna knew that Elia and her children were dead when she gave birth to Jon and named him, Aegon. That might be somewhat comforting as well.

Edited July 29, 2017 by SimoneS

[glowbug]

The only way Aegon is acceptable is if Lyanna knew that Rhaegar's other children were dead when she named him, and she came up with the name not Rhaegar who died before his son, Aegon. I'm still not crazy about the idea but I'll accept it if that's the case. 

[Raachel2008]

Why in the name of all that is holly are we still dealing with this LF nonsense? Seven episodes of this fuckery while D&D could have done so much more with Sansa in the North.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but does Gendry knows he is Robert's son?

I'm sorry, but when was Tyrion in love with Sansa? Because he was in love with Shae. Sure, Tyrion cared about Sansa, but love? Nope, not on screen.

I'm willing to bet that when Jon finds out he is Aegon Targaryen, his words will be something along the lines of "I was never Jon Stark, I will never be Aegon Targaryen. I'm Jon Snow".

Emilia and Kit better be able to sell this Dany/Jon thing because it is not like they have a lot of material to play.

I still don't think trying to capture a wight is stupid. It is a grea plan.

I want to understand the point of Cersei being pregnant again after all those years. So she can control Jamie? Or because it will give Lena some meaty material when she miscarriages? Or...?

I understand that with all those battles and WWs and dragons the money was short, but these 7 episodes seem very rushed in many aspects.

And the folks at TV Guide can fuck themselves. Dany loved Drogo, but he raped her, and that will never be epic. And while Ygritte and Jon loved each other and it was kind of epic, so what? People fall in love more than once in their lives {{insert my own epic eye roll here}}.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Eyes High]

It's been known for a while that Dany spells out that she's barren to Jon, a not-so-subtle way for the writers to hint at a future Jon/Dany baby. It was in one of the leaked script pages.

Tyrion falling for Dany is not surprising in the least. Whether a Tyrion/Dany/Jon triangle fueling a deadly rivalry between Jon and Tyrion, which is what GRRM planned with the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle in the outline, is where this is headed, though, is anyone's guess.

 

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You could say that for Sansa, Missandei and to a point, Arya as well yet you don't see men falling all over themselves for any of them.

Everything Sansa has, she has by virtue of a guy falling all over himself for her.

 

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The Jon and Dany coupling is fine. It's the Tyrion as a third wheel portion that I have a problem with. It's now all but guaranteed that he's going to do something really stupid in season 8 because of it.

Maybe, maybe not. At least it would give him something to do; it seems as if Tyrion in Season 7 doesn't have much of an arc.

One would think Tyrion would be sufficiently wise to realize the sense in a Jon/Dany union and understand that Dany was never going to reciprocate his affection, but we'll see.

 

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I'm sorry, but when was Tyrion in love with Sansa? Because he was in love with Shae,. Sure, Tyrion cared about Sansa, but love? Nope, not on screen.

Agreed. Tyrion never loved Sansa. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa is alive and in charge of Winterfell because of all the men who fell in love with her. The Hound loved her and helped her in WF. Tyrion loved her but she did not want anything to do with him. LF loves her and brought her a freaking Vale army. Missandei is not a main character, but she has Grey Worm and Arya has been disguised for much of her story. But hey, Hot Pie called her pretty last episode, so there's hope!

Dany is a beautiful woman who freaking rides dragons! Her time with Jon shows her as being vulnerable and sensible.  Of course characters are going to fall in love with her.

The hound isn't in love with Sansa, at best, he lusts after her and I'm not even sure that's true. Tyrion doesn't love her either,  maybe in the books but definitely not in the show.  So Littlefinger is the only one.

As for Dany the question isn't why people fall in love with her, it's why does damn  near every male character that crosses her path fall  in love with her? It's ridiculous.

Lyanna actually getting news while she's in hiding makes her come off a lot worst. That means she knew that her brother and father got killed over her dumb ass and she still chose to live in fantasy world with her dream prince.   That goes beyond selfishness.

[bunnyblue]

I'm still not seeing any proof on screen or in the leaks that Tyrion is in love with Dany. I know what Dinklage said in an interview but I'm not buying it. I saw no lingering looks or hidden meanings in anything Tyrion did or said in the first 2 episodes. And now with Friki's latest spoilers, I still don't see any yearning from Tyrion. If anything, it sounds like he knows Jon and Dany have a thing between them and Tyrion seeing Jon walk into Dany's cabin reaffirms his suspicions. I honestly don't think there will be any sort of love triangle in S8 or that Tyrion will betray Dany or Jon.

I am surprised that Tyrion will be on the boat heading North in the season finale. I imagined Dany would leave him at Dragonstone to keep an eye on Cersei. I guess she will completely abandon her hold in the south? I wonder if Jorah will be assigned to lead the Dothraki north? He is Dany's only commander that speaks both the common tongue and Dothraki. Plus he knows Westeros, the King's Road, and the North so who better to lead the huge foreign tribe? And not being on the boat would spare poor Jorah the pain of hearing Jon and Dany going at it.

As I suspected, there is no super secret Winterfell story and it's just a freakin' mess in order to allow Littlefinger to live long past his expiration date. The only thing I'm looking forward to in WF is the Arya/Brienne sparring match, the Arya/Bran scenes (if any), and the Sam/Bran scenes in the season finale. And hopefully Yohn Royce will get to gloat as LF is killed.

Edited July 29, 2017 by bunnyblue

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but does Gendry knows he is Robert's son? 

Yes, Gendry knows. Melisandre told him.

 

54 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Lyanna actually getting news while she's in hiding makes her come off a lot worst. That means she knew that her brother and father got killed over her dumb ass and she still chose to live in fantasy world with her dream prince.   That goes beyond selfishness.

No one really knows as yet exactly happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar. Maybe she went willingly with him or maybe he did abduct her. Regardless, once the civil war started there was certainly nothing that she could do, especially once she became pregnant. All she could do then was hope that her child survived. In any case, Lyanna was only 15 years old when all this happened. I refuse to blame a child for the actions of men who actually had power to make different choices. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Well, that's not quite true, in that Bran seems to be (for whatever reason) regarded as a reliable source of evidence by everybody, so his word is enough to convict Littlefinger.  In that, at least, she gains an asset midway through the year that she didn't have at the beginning.  According to Luka Nieto, Sansa's the one who instigates Bran's investigation, for whatever reason.

For those who haven't seen this spoiler from  Luka :

 

   Sansa already mistrusts Littlefinger and is planning to do him in, because of a few things in particular that take place; and only THEN does Sansa seek Bran’s aid. Even with Bran, you have it the wrong way around: SHE gives Bran all the necessary information for him to dig deeper with his powers, telling him where to look, what to look for. She orchestrates the whole thing.m

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The hound isn't in love with Sansa, at best, he lusts after her and I'm not even sure that's true. Tyrion doesn't love her either,  maybe in the books but definitely not in the show.  So Littlefinger is the only one.

As for Dany the question isn't why people fall in love with her, it's why does damn  near every male character that crosses her path fall  in love with her? It's ridiculous.

Even if it is lust, the Hound's feelings for Sansa makes him help her while in KL. I don't remember how it was in the show, but in the books Tyrion is attracted to Sansa, realizes how much she is repelled by him and backs off. He feels pity for her though and stays out of her way. And then, of course, we have Littlefinger.

Are Tyrion and Jon supposed to love Dany at the end of this season or are they starting to have feelings for her after getting to know her.  You make it sound as if characters just see her and fall in love with her, which is hyperbole.

Dany is beautiful, charismatic, ambitious, kind, sensible, powerful. Are those not attractive qualities in a person? Why would it be ridiculous that men fall in love with her after getting to know her? I don't know - it seems quite natural enough for me.

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

   Sansa already mistrusts Littlefinger and is planning to do him in, because of a few things in particular that take place; and only THEN does Sansa seek Bran’s aid. Even with Bran, you have it the wrong way around: SHE gives Bran all the necessary information for him to dig deeper with his powers, telling him where to look, what to look for. She orchestrates the whole thing.m

The spoilers so far give no indication of Sansa planning to do in LF. All we are getting is LF hounding Sansa about Jon/Arya and Sansa saying no.  We don't see her talking to Royce about getting rid of LF or getting some men to keep an eye on him or anything of that sort. Again, she can easily do in episode one what she does in the finale - LF sided against Ned in KL leading to his imprisonment and death. LF murdered her aunt to set himself up as Lord protector. LF framed her and Tyrion for Joffrey's murder making them fugitives. LF sold her to the Boltons. These crimes should be enough to convict and execute LF for treason. Royce wants LF gone and would support her.

Instead she lets LF play Arya against her, gets some extra info about LF from Bran, pretends to execute Arya, then goes lol, jk and has LF killed in the finale. This is a repeat of last year's Vale plot. All Sansa does is get two extra crimes added to LF's already long list of villainy and not tell Arya about any of this because it's more important that she can have a 'Look at me being a bad-ass' moment. This season it's Arya turn to play the fool and then praise Sansa for being awesome.

Edited July 29, 2017 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

Or maybe we still don't know the whole Winterfell plot. 

Also, as I imagined after reading the leaks, once on screen (7x01 and 7x02) the plot looks a lot better than if we just read a brief summary of it (the leaks).

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Or maybe we still don't know the whole Winterfell plot.

True. Maybe there are some missing scenes where Sansa is plotting with Royce to get rid of LF.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

True. Maybe there are some missing scenes where Sansa is plotting with Royce to get rid of LF.

I think Royce has a bigger role this season than previous ones. At least it seems the case.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

No one really knows as yet exactly happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar. Maybe she went willingly with him or maybe he did abduct her. Regardless, once the civil war started there was certainly nothing that she could do, especially once she became pregnant. All she could do then was hope that her child survived. In any case, Lyanna was only 15 years old when all this happened. I refuse to blame a child for the actions of men who actually had power to make different choices. 

Let's be real, we all pretty much know what happened by now. It comes down to one of two things, either she willingly went with him and  chose to let her family think that she was kidnapped or she was kidnapped and caught a case of stockholm. If it was B, disregard, but if it was the more likely A, then yea she's completely culpable. She's as guilty as Rhaegar since she went along with that shit. At 15, she should know the consequences of her actions. The only bad thing here is that Rhaegar takes all the blame and she comes off as a victim when she was just as guilty for the shit that followed. 

3 hours ago, doram said:

Apart from the ones who try to kill her? 

Those are the ones who want to bang her, so I guess I should differentiate..  

[Spartan Girl]

If Dany has to die, it had better be an epic death scene worthy of the Mother of all Dragons. Dying in childbirth would be the ultimate disservice to a fan base who (let's face it) have already put up with A LOT from this show.

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I'm still not seeing any proof on screen or in the leaks that Tyrion is in love with Dany. I know what Dinklage said in an interview but I'm not buying it.

Well, we're only two episodes in, and Frikidoctor doesn't capture every bit of dialogue in his summaries (which is why /Gotit1111's information is helpful to fill in the gaps). And there was Cersei telling Tyrion in one of the 7x07 leaked script pages, "I'm not surprised. She's exactly your type of woman: a foreign whore who doesn't know her place," drawing a comparison between Dany and Shae. Also, Dinklage isn't the type to make shit up in his interviews. So while it hasn't been brought up yet, it likely will be. Maybe Tyrion hasn't realized it yet and has an "Oh, shit" moment down the line, which is why in the leaked script pages he doesn't seem to deny it when Cersei draws a comparison between Dany and Shae.

Also, for all the complaints about too many guys falling in love with Dany, Tyrion falling in love with Dany is the least surprising of all of them. Here's someone who has been starved for respect and love his whole life, rudderless and depressed, looking for a purpose in life after losing everything, who has mostly been treated with disgust and contempt by any person he wasn't paying, and he comes across a charismatic, kindhearted woman who inspires him to believe that there are good rulers left in the world, treats him with respect and dignity, values his counsel, and makes him her Hand. On top of all that, she's incredibly beautiful. How could he not fall in love with her?

 

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

If Dany has to die, it had better be an epic death scene worthy of the Mother of all Dragons. Dying in childbirth would be the ultimate disservice to a fan base who (let's face it) have already put up with A LOT from this show.

GRRM has consistently named Dany one of his favourite characters, so I hope that he'll give her an ending worthy of her.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[domina89]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

If Dany has to die, it had better be an epic death scene worthy of the Mother of all Dragons. Dying in childbirth would be the ultimate disservice to a fan base who (let's face it) have already put up with A LOT from this show.

I understand why you feel that way, but Dany's arc (in both books and tv series) has always been about motherhood.  The death of her child basically starts her on this path... mother of dragons, mother to slaves (mhysa).  It makes sense from a narrative standpoint that she will give birth to a child.  I'm hoping they don't go the 'death in childbirth' route, either, but considering the problems her mother had and the fact that Rhaego died, it's certainly been set up as a strong possibility, imo.

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have been reading some of the conversation on FreeFolk and there is a convincing argument being made that Lyanna knew that Elia and her children were dead when she gave birth to Jon and named him, Aegon. That might be somewhat comforting as well.

I think she would have known. The Kingsguard already knew everything that had gone down before Ned & Co showed up at the tower. There's no reason for them not to tell her anything. I'd think that given the oaths they swore, they were likely just waiting for her to give birth before they could take her and the baby somewhere safer. 

About Tyrion and his feelings for Dany, he encouraged her to keep Daario back because he knew she would need a marriage alliance. And he knows she will not be marrying him, so whatever he might feel for her, he's a lot more pragmatic than Jorah.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has consistently named Dany one of his favourite characters, so I hope that he'll give her an ending worthy of her.

I will say, if Dany (or really, any of the main female POVs) ends up dying in childbirth or serving as Nissa Nissa for Jon's manly heroic destiny, GRRM will richly deserve all the shit he gets for it.  But I've never thought that would happen, anyway.

In regard to childbirth, especially, there's really no time for that to happen within the main narrative action of the series.  Dany isn't going to spend much of Season 8 sidelined with a fake belly.

[Advance35]

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As for Dany the question isn't why people fall in love with her, it's why does damn  near every male character that crosses her path fall  in love with her? It's ridiculous.

She's the stories Mary Sue.  She has been since the end of Season 2.  I sometimes wonder if a different actress would have helped.  During the DragonStone scene, without the silver hair, I feel like EC would have faded into the background.  Or maybe it's because I saw her "Terminator" movie last night. Oy.  

Either way, we are stuck with Mary Sue Targaryen for the duration.  It would just help if there was something about HER that actually inspired awe.  Her Dragons are an accessory.  Other then her hair color, I don't and never have, found anything unique about her.

I don't think we've seen the last of Dario either.  Maybe she'll keep them (Dario, Jon and Tyrion) in a stable.

I'll be interested in seeing how the mass audience reacts to how this season unfolds.

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

She's the stories Mary Sue.  She has been since the end of Season 2.  I sometimes wonder if a different actress would have helped.  During the DragonStone scene, without the silver hair, I feel like EC would have faded into the background.  Or maybe it's because I saw her "Terminator" movie last night. Oy.  

Either way, we are stuck with Mary Sue Targaryen for the duration.  It would just help if there was something about HER that actually inspired awe.  Her Dragons are an accessory.  Other then her hair color, I don't and never have, found anything unique about her.

I don't think we've seen the last of Dario either.  Maybe she'll keep them (Dario, Jon and Tyrion) in a stable.

I'll be interested in seeing how the mass audience reacts to how this season unfolds.

The mass audience has been clamoring for a Jon/Dany romance since Season 1, so I'm guessing they'll be thrilled.

 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I will say, if Dany (or really, any of the main female POVs) ends up dying in childbirth or serving as Nissa Nissa for Jon's manly heroic destiny, GRRM will richly deserve all the shit he gets for it.

Heh, I can only imagine all the thinkpieces screaming about Dany being fridged.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[amandawoods]

I can't believe that now I'm already waiting for season 8 spoilers.  This season sounds interesting, and I know it will look amazing on screen.  I think Littlefinger's death will play out nicely.   I love that it comes from something supernatural (Bran).  He can't plan for that.  

Euron being amazed with the dragons....foreshadowing that he'll probably see them again.

Stupid question, but can Bran warg a wight dragon?  

[Azi]

I kind of wonder if Cersei's pregnancy is not quite normal? Sure, she could be just cautious because of her age or maybe Jaime does know and it's just not been in the spoilers, but maybe Qyburn has something to do with it? Cause Cersei must know that "a dynasty just for us" is not a thing.

[bubble sparkly]

If Dany agrees to Jon Nissa Nissaing her to save the realm, I hope she'd be due a lord of light resurrection freebie. Maybe Mel can give Jon and Dany a 2 for 1 resurrection coupon as a wedding gift, when they inevitably tie the knot next season?

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, amandawoods said:

I can't believe that now I'm already waiting for season 8 spoilers.  

Last year the Season 7 leaks came in October. If Lads is still around, we may get a similar leak dump around the same time. Of course, if we do get the leaks then, we'll have to wait at least a year, maybe even a year and a half, to see them on screen.

 

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Stupid question, but can Bran warg a wight dragon?

It's not a stupid question. I think the answer is "no," since I don't think wights have any consciousness of their own for a warg to hijack, but that's just a guess.

[Raachel2008]

15 hours ago, Edith said:

Also paralleling Jon/Dany with R/L. Lyanna died in childbirth just as the popular theory for Dany dying in childbirth and reuniting with Drogo as Mirri prophesy said. 

Dany deserves way better than dying in childbirth to be reunited with Drogo. Since they have Dany saying out loud that Drogo raped her, I wonder if we will see Dany saying that yes, the child/teen she was back then loved Drogo, and she is a woman and a different person now and knows better.  It really pisses me off the idea that Dany wouldn't be able to be a mother for her child because she has to be reunited with Drogo.

IF Dany and Jon have a child, which I think is a given since, you know, the anvils are the size of Wall, I don't think Dany will die in childbirth. I imagine that if she has to die, it will be sacrificing herself to those she loves - Jon, baby messiah, Misandei, GW, the Insullied, etc - as well as for the people she wants to rule, so they can all survive. I could be wrong, though, and the end maybe is all about Dany ruling happily after all with Jon and kid.

 

 

13 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Whether a Tyrion/Dany/Jon triangle fueling a deadly rivalry between Jon and Tyrion

Not happening. That would do a disservice to Tyrion, wouldn't accomplish anything in the story telling, and sounds highly implausibe: there is no way Dany wouldn't set Tyrion straight about what she wants. If she  is in love with Jon and wants him, no way she would allow Tyrion to interfere. I doubt Jon would care or see Tyrion as a rival, either. I think they are writting Tyrion being smitten with Dany (sorry, I don't buy it is love) to make his bonds to Dany as strong as possible, so there will be no doubts where his loyalty lies.

 

12 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I guess she will completely abandon her hold in the south? I wonder if Jorah will be assigned to lead the Dothraki north? He is Dany's only commander that speaks both the common tongue and Dothraki. Plus he knows Westeros, the King's Road, and the North so who better to lead the huge foreign tribe?

Oh maybe Dany leaves part of the Dothraki behind, which would be unwise at least - those guys don't operate by the normal rules and would start pilaging and raping as soons as they got bored and the dragons were out of sight. I would love to see Jorah comarning the Dothraki in some capacity; as you said he is the best one for this. But I'm not quite convinced that D&D cared about those details. The Dothraki being leaded to the North would mean they need to time to get there and we all know that warp factor is a reality in Westeros now.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Raachel2008

[screamin]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think she would have known. The Kingsguard already knew everything that had gone down before Ned & Co showed up at the tower. There's no reason for them not to tell her anything. I'd think that given the oaths they swore, they were likely just waiting for her to give birth before they could take her and the baby somewhere safer. 

About Tyrion and his feelings for Dany, he encouraged her to keep Daario back because he knew she would need a marriage alliance. And he knows she will not be marrying him, so whatever he might feel for her, he's a lot more pragmatic than Jorah.

I still think the Kingsguard's fight to the death with Ned at the foot of the tower is weirdly inconsistent with them being her trusted guards and companions and not her jailors. If the Kingsguard are under Lyanna's orders, they'd know she'd want to parley with Ned if he arrived to see if she could convince him to help them - not try to kill her beloved brother straight off. Since it's in the show, and the annulment's in the show, demonstrating that Lyanna's participation in the marriage seems to be entirely willing, I will have to attribute the inconsistency to GRRM, but it still chaps my hide immensely.

Because I've always felt that Rhaegar's actions, leaving his wife and children in the custody of his increasingly crazy and paranoid father while he disappears for months in pursuit of knocking up Lyanna is the hallmark of a deeply shitty person. He can excuse it all he wants with the reasoning that their child is absolutely necessary to save the world. We can fanwank that maybe Elia, because of her Dorne descent and her firm belief in her husband's obsessions (even though her belief was never mentioned in books or show), was totally okay with him taking a second wife and breeding a rival to the throne for her own children. None of that excuses Rhaegar leaving his wife and children with the king who he KNOWS is raping Rhaegar's mother on the regular - of course, only after burning some perceived enemy to death to get in the mood, because he's also getting so paranoid that he's seeing enemies in every shadow, and not allowing anyone near him with a sharp object even to cut his hair or nails for years. Rhaegar leaves his wife and kids with his father just trusting that someone that far gone in dangerous madness and in a position of absolute power won't ever turn that paranoid, accusing gaze on Elia. There is no fucking excuse for that.

And that these spoilers show that Lyanna ignored all these warning signs and just went along with it willingly...just accepting Rhaegar's word that 'my wife's totally okay with it, we have an open marriage! The kids will be fine while we go off for months incommunicado for our honeymoon!' seems to imply that Lyanna has some deeply shitty elements in her own personality as well. Which wouldn't actually be inconsistent with the plot, but given Ned's uncomplicated love for Lyanna, without the least shadow of resentment or ambiguity in any thoughts of her, it seems to me an unsatisfying solution to the puzzle.

Edited July 29, 2017 by screamin

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Dany deserves way better than dying in childbirth to be reunited with Drogo. Since they have Dany saying out loud that Drogo raped her, I wonder if we will see Dany saying that yes, the child/teen she was back then loved Drogo, and she is a woman and a different person now and knows better.  It really pisses me off the idea that Dany wouldn't be able to be a mother for her child because she has to be reunited with Drogo.

Not to mention that Jon and Beric have made it clear that there is no afterlife, so the idea of Dany being reunited with Drogo in the afterlife is bullshit in any event.

 

Quote

IF Dany and Jon have a child, which I think is a given since, you know, the anvils are the size of Wall, I don't think Dany will die in childbirth. I imagine that if she has to die, it will be sacrificing herself to those she loves - Jon, baby messiah, Misandei, GW, the Insullied, etc - as well as for the people she wants to rule, so they can all survive. I could be wrong, though, and the end maybe is all about Dany ruling happily after all with Jon and kid.

I'd be perfectly fine with Jon and Dany ruling happily ever after together. God knows they both deserve a break after everything they've been through.

 

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Not happening. That would do a disservice to Tyrion, wouldn't accomplish anything in the story telling, and sounds highly implausibe: there is no way Dany wouldn't set Tyrion straight about what she wants.

I assume that if there is a rivalry, it won't be because Tyrion has deluded himself into thinking he can win Dany's affections, but out of bitterness and resentment towards Jon that she loves Jon and not him. 

I figured in light of the S7 leaks that it would be too late in the game for Tyrion to have a heel turn in Season 8, but it sounds as if the S8 episodes will be supersized, so who knows?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[domina89]

18 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Not happening. That would do a disservice to Tyrion, wouldn't accomplish anything in the story telling, and sounds highly implausibe: there is no way Dany wouldn't set Tyrion straight about what she wants. If she  is in love with Jon and wants him, no way she would allow Tyrion to interfere. I doubt Jon would care or see Tyrion as a rival, either. I think they are writting Tyrion being smitten with Dany (sorry, I don't buy it is love) to make his bonds to Dany as strong as possible, so there will be no doubts where his loyalty lies.

What worries me, though, is that D&D LOVE to take nothing and make something from it to play up the drama, whether it makes sense in the story or not.  See: Jon and Sansa.  I could see them going this route to make the audience wonder if Tyrion will betray Jon and/or Dany.  Dany *does* still have that 'betrayal for love' floating out there, after all (from the book)...

[Spartan Girl]

The only thing worse than the show killing Tyrion is completely assassinating his character. I hope the writers are smarter than that.

[Raachel2008]

22 minutes ago, screamin said:

Because I've always felt that Rhaegar's actions, leaving his wife and children in the custody of his increasingly crazy and paranoid father while he disappears for months in pursuit of knocking up Lyanna is the hallmark of a deeply shitty person.

 

22 minutes ago, screamin said:

seems to imply that Lyanna has some deeply shitty elements in her own personality as well.

We don't know how GRRM will solve this in the books (Ah! As if he will ever finish it), but very little is known about show Lyanna and show Rhaegar: he kiddnapped her, his wife and kids were killed by the Lannisters, her father and brother were killed by his father, Robert was in love with her and started a war because of her (among ohter reasons); she was seen giving birth in a guarded tower and asking Ned to not tell Robert, and she is Jon's mother. Remember, for some regular viewers it wasn't even clear that Jon was Rhaegar's son, so D&D have a lot of room to work there. Add to all this the fact that the timeline of all those events wasn't properly explained - the info was scattered over six seasons - they can do something like Lyanna and Rhaegar falling in love, going away, and getting married without knowing that Aerys had killed Rickard and Bradon. It is easy to buy that Rhaegar never thought Aerys would go batshit insane against his own family, or that Lyanna, who was very young, wouldn't have seen any big troubles in the horizon.

They never said how Ellia and Rhaegar's kids were called on the show, did they? They could change it, so Aegon become something else, like Rhaegon or whatever.

The annulment part doesn't make much sense for me, though. How can you annul  a marriage when the couple had children? Wouldn't it have annuled Ellia's children rights to the throne either? Wouldn't Dorne have gone ballistic? So confusing.

[YaddaYadda]

18 minutes ago, screamin said:

I still think the Kingsguard's fight to the death with Ned at the foot of the tower is weirdly inconsistent with them being her trusted guards and companions and not her jailors. If the Kingsguard are under Lyanna's orders, they'd know she'd want to parley with Ned if he arrived to see if she could convince him to help them - not try to kill her beloved brother straight off. Since it's in the show, and the annulment's in the show, demonstrating that Lyanna's participation in the marriage seems to be entirely willing, I will have to attribute the inconsistency to GRRM, but it still chaps my hide immensely.

The thing I always wondered about is if Ned showing up with seven people isn't the reason the fight happened. That's seven people too many who would know this secret and the more people know, the less chances there are that the secret will remain a secret. If he had come alone, maybe things would have gone differently. Ned is looking for a solution that doesn't involve having to fight and the Kingsguard aren't having it. If he had been alone, I think the outcome might have been vastly different, especially if they know that Ned and Robert had a fight over the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys.

And that's the other thing. Were the kingsguard expecting to be found? The way I understand it is that Rhaegar basically vanished and no one could find him when everything went off the rails. And if no one could find him, then the odds the people at the tower might have been unaware of how hard the shit had hit the fan, until Gerold Hightower showed up. And if he showed up, then it means that someone knew exactly where Rhaegar was and gave Ser Gerold the location and that same person might have informed the kingsguard present at the tower of Rhaegar's death on the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And who told Ned about the tower and its location? He likely found out about it after he lifted the siege of Storm's End. I can't imagine him finding out before and going to take care of that before finding his sister and making sure she's fine.

So all of this is a massive headache that I have very little hope to see solved. I think for me, all of this begs the question of how many people know about who Jon really is. 

As far as the show and the annulment goes, I think that they just wanted to show that it was something mutual, and going down the annulment road means that they don't have to answer as many questions. He loved, she loved him, he left his wife and married her, done and done! I'm mostly kind of meh on the whole thing because they are just dropping it in some montage. 

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Last year the Season 7 leaks came in October. If Lads is still around, we may get a similar leak dump around the same time. Of course, if we do get the leaks then, we'll have to wait at least a year, maybe even a year and a half, to see them on screen.

Who knows how reliable this is, but in one of those Reddit freefolk threads someone was claiming that Lads has been fired.

Rhaegar/Lyanna is like a book version of the Battle of the Bastards: if you start thinking about it, the logic and motivations fall apart. Stupidity and inconsistencies everywhere, but just as we're supposed to think that no matter what ended up onscreen Sansa is not an ambitious mastermind who abandoned Rickon and let Jon be weakened before swooping in to claim the credit, I think GRRM expects us to accept that the only twist is that Lyanna chose to run away with Rhaegar. Considering his portrayal of Dany/Drogo, I just don't believe that he's thought of all the power imbalances and Lyanna's ability/willingness to withdraw her consent at some point during the war that readers have pointed out; they were in love, they were married, Rhaegar abandoned the realm and Elia to their fates but let's not think too much about that, he was a great guy and Robert was wrong.

About the legitimacy of Rhaegar and Elia's children: Henry VIII changed his mind a lot about this, but he eventually settled on his daughter Mary being in the line of succession after her little brother even though he'd gotten an annulment from her mother in his quest for a male heir. Who knows what Rhaegar would have thought, but especially if it was a polygamous marriage that was changed into an annulment to avoid extra complications on the show, I'd imagine that Aegon #1 still came before Aegon #2 in his eyes. Unless he'd gone totally gaga for prophecy and felt that the Stark wife had to be the mother of the PWWP.

Edited July 29, 2017 by ElizaD

[Raachel2008]

25 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think for me, all of this begs the question of how many people know about who Jon really is. 

I think the most important question is how people are going to believe Jon is a Taragryen. Sam is his BFF, Bran is his brother, unless Bran makes everyone see Lyanna and Rhaegar marrying and what Lyanna said to Ned during childbirth, how could they? Maybe Sam could steal the documents from the Citadel, but even so, wil it be enough? I don't think D&D would pass the chance to revel Jon's true origin in some spetacular scene, like burning a few wights or whatever.

[Azi]

The question is also if Jon would even want to be king if he knew. I don't see a reason why he would, unless Dany goes off the rails and he feels like it's his duty to become king instead. Of course there wouldn't be any conflict at all if he married her and they'd co-rule, which is something I don't see Dany being opposed to, since it wouldn't be a marriage of (only) convinience either. The only thing he can do she doesn't is having kids, which... you know, the anvils.

Damn, the more I think about it, the more I actually want them to get a happy ending together - with a child or without one. I'll probably be heartbroken at the end of season 8. I did not plan for this!

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think the most important question is how people are going to believe Jon is a Taragryen. Sam is his BFF, Bran is his brother, unless Bran makes everyone see Lyanna and Rhaegar marrying and what Lyanna said to Ned during childbirth, how could they? Maybe Sam could steal the documents from the Citadel, but even so, wil it be enough? I don't think D&D would pass the chance to revel Jon's true origin in some spetacular scene, like burning a few wights or whatever.

I was thinking about the books, because there's 8 people who know about "Aegon", there's those that are sworn to secrecy, the guy who sort of stumbles on the secret, and Harry Strickland who can't keep a secret. 

But I should probably stop thinking about the books when addressing the show.

I don't think people will really care that Jon is a Targaryen, a bastard, legitimate. Now that the Wall has been breached at the end of this seaon, they should be looking for leadership and to those who will lead them through the long night. This is about survival now, not about who is king or queen and they'll should turn to those who give them the best chance to come through this.  The north is about to be trampled by wights and White Walkers. If they fight over whose blood Jon has in veins, then maybe they don't deserve to survive this. 

But I'm probably very wrong because people don't have their priorities being straight. I imagine we will be seeing Howland Reed in season 8. He's a character I always felt has a massive role to play against the WW, but the show will probably dust him off for the reveal and we'll never see him again. 

[Edith]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Dany deserves way better than dying in childbirth to be reunited with Drogo. Since they have Dany saying out loud that Drogo raped her, I wonder if we will see Dany saying that yes, the child/teen she was back then loved Drogo, and she is a woman and a different person now and knows better.  It really pisses me off the idea that Dany wouldn't be able to be a mother for her child because she has to be reunited with Drogo.

IF Dany and Jon have a child, which I think is a given since, you know, the anvils are the size of Wall, I don't think Dany will die in childbirth. I imagine that if she has to die, it will be sacrificing herself to those she loves - Jon, baby messiah, Misandei, GW, the Insullied, etc - as well as for the people she wants to rule, so they can all survive. I could be wrong, though, and the end maybe is all about Dany ruling happily after all with Jon and kid.

The whole problem with Jon/Dany + kid living happily ever after if the little issue that both of them are going to be responsible for the biggest tragedy that's going to happen in Westeros: long night plus NK with death dragon.

I agree that Dany dying in childbirth is awful. Maybe she doesn't die like that. Maybe she sacrificed herself to bring the dawn fulfilling TPTWP prophesy. It will go with the HOTU vision in season 2. She leaving behind the throne/power to go north (season 7) but also leaving behind her family/child to fulfill her destiny. 

With Jon, I'll go 50/50 and only because the show are putting so much emphasis on his parentage. Even having documents that prove the whole thing.

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The mass audience has been clamoring for a Jon/Dany romance since Season 1, so I'm guessing they'll be thrilled.

Intercutting R/L to hit home the incest point kind of puts a damper on that though...probably meant to unsettle more than thrill. 

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Azi said:

The question is also if Jon would even want to be king if he knew. I don't see a reason why he would, unless Dany goes off the rails and he feels like it's his duty to become king instead. Of course there wouldn't be any conflict at all if he married her and they'd co-rule, which is something I don't see Dany being opposed to, since it wouldn't be a marriage of (only) convinience either. The only thing he can do she doesn't is having kids, which... you know, the anvils.

Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander and he didn't want to the KITN either, no way he wants to be King of Westeros. The first two tittles were 'given' to him, I'm willing to bet that if he ends sitting on the Iron Throne it will be in a similar way.

1 hour ago, Azi said:

Damn, the more I think about it, the more I actually want them to get a happy ending together - with a child or without one. I'll probably be heartbroken at the end of season 8. I did not plan for this!

No kidding, I don't think anyone will be happy at the end of season 8, though I will be relieved to know the end of the story. I would love all those people to get their happy endings, but that is not going to happen.

22 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Intercutting R/L to hit home the incest point kind of puts a damper on that though...probably meant to unsettle more than thrill. 

Will most viewers care? Dany and Jon are strangers, never met, weren't raised as family.

1 hour ago, Edith said:

The whole problem with Jon/Dany + kid living happily ever after if the little issue that both of them are going to be responsible for the biggest tragedy that's going to happen in Westeros: long night plus NK with death dragon.

How one thing prevents the other from happening?

[Azi]

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander and he didn't want to the KITN either, no way he wants to be King of Westeros. The first two tittles were 'given' to him, I'm willing to bet that if he ends sitting on the Iron Throne it will be in a similar way.

And only if Dany is dead or crazy (I think the first one is way more likely than the second) at that point.
I mean, sure if all the smallfolk of Westeros came together and demanded he be king over Dany he'd do it, but I doubt something like that will happen. I just can't imagine Jon being talked into the role if there is a perfectly fine candidate )that he is probably in love with by the time it happens) right there. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Azi
missing half a sentence

[tangerine95]

I'd love a sort happy ending with Dany and Jon alive and ruling together tbh.It is unlikely they will get that tho,but I would kinda hate them dying after everything.And I do see Dany as the more likely to die because Jon already had his big death,I feel like they wouldn't go there again.

I actually like the idea of seeing them in a relationship,tho depending on the writing since it could easily be a mess.but I feel like GoT is missing a big romance and I would like to see one.

The fact that they're related should probably gross me out more,it usually would lol but the fact that they never met and have no idea probably helps at least for me.

[Azi]

21 minutes ago, Azi said:

What the heck I just wanted to edit my post and not write a new one and I can't even delete the quote window. Everyone ignore this. -.-

Edited July 29, 2017 by Azi

[Brn2bwild]

11 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I'd love a sort happy ending with Dany and Jon alive and ruling together tbh.It is unlikely they will get that tho,but I would kinda hate them dying after everything.And I do see Dany as the more likely to die because Jon already had his big death,I feel like they wouldn't go there again.

I actually like the idea of seeing them in a relationship,tho depending on the writing since it could easily be a mess.but I feel like GoT is missing a big romance and I would like to see one.

The fact that they're related should probably gross me out more,it usually would lol but the fact that they never met and have no idea probably helps at least for me.

Since GoT likes to mess with people's expectations, and people's expectations are that Jon or Dany dies before the end, what if they're setting it up to have all of the major characters survive?

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Since GoT likes to mess with people's expectations, and people's expectations are that Jon or Dany dies before the end, what if they're setting it up to have all of the major characters survive?

lol I would be shocked if all the major characters survive or even most of them so that twist would work on me

[amandawoods]

I have this horrible thought of Dany dying before Drogon. Drogon goes nuts, and Bran has to warg him.  

This is one of the first shows where I don't want anyone else dying (except Cersei and Euron).  I've grown attached to almost everyone.  

[Blonde Gator]

One of the two of them has to die....it's only a matter of which one, or maybe even both.    I will probably be bDany who dies, because she seems to be the most beloved of fandom, but who knows about sDany?

I believe Dany CAN have another child, and not only CAN but will have a child, who may end up being the PTWP, who will rule over the ashes of Westeros.  Eventually.  I see Tyrion ruling as Regent until then in Westeros, with either Dany having died or returned to Essos to continue her quest to eradicate slavery.  After Dany rode Drogon the first time, fleeing the fighting pit in Mereen, she was out in the plains of the Dothraki Sea, by herself for a while, and became very ill, and then "bled".   So the "being barren" may not actually be true any longer.

Somehow I get the feeling that in the end, to end the Long Night, Jon is going to be forced to join the Others, in some sort of weird truce, and that mirrors what happened years ago before the Wall was built.  That's going to be the bitter, very bitter, if his family and Dany are still alive, but it's the only way he can protect them is to go beyond the wall, and live in misery indefinitely to save his family and the realms of men (and ultimately going back to his Night's Watch oath). 

One other random thought....if Brynden Rivers (the 3ER) has been able to communicate with Bran, the Reed kids, warg dead animals and cause events (dead direwolf mom with puppies) for all these years, why could he NOT have contacted Aemon Targeryan via Dragon Dreams?  I've seen multiple arguments about why/why not, but I've never seen anyone mention that.  The 3ER could have hedged his bets a little bit better, IMO.