Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

ETA:  Perhaps this is the third thing Martin revealed to D&D that had them shocked (Sansa willingly sleeping with LF). 

I thought D&D had said something to the effect that the third twist related to the ending. 

The Northern plot as described by Awayforthelads seemed to have a pretty pat resolution. There's no gut punch: LF tries to drum up conflict between Sansa and Arya, is found out thanks to Bran, and is ultimately executed. While it serves to clear LF off the board, as described it seems a little too tidy and clean, particularly this close to the ending when the show is only ramping up the emotional stakes and the big shocks. It doesn't mean that the Cinetrabajadora leak is more likely to be true, but it does sound as if something's missing. 

Assuming for the moment that Cinetrabajadora is right and that the blood seeping from the bed is Sansa's, I wonder whether Cersei is finally able to send an assassin after Sansa. There have been far too many recent reminders in the show that Cersei specifically wants Sansa dead, and D&D are not subtle.

[Happy Harpy]

Sansa's death would be in tune with Sophie Turner "crying" after reading the screenplays and the reported matched tattoos with their audition date that she and M.Williams got. For the same reason, those two facts could have inspired the idea of Sansa's death to anyone with no inside knowledge. Same probability, if you ask me.

When it comes to the Stark sisters, again, I always envisioned "bittersweet" as irreconciliable differences making it impossible for them to get along in spite of a real sisterly affection.  If Arya's "West of Westeros" is a foreshadowing of her end game, I could see this new separation as their bittersweet ending. It could be true for all the Starks: Many viewers spent years hoping to see the siblings reunited and home but their respective "happy/satisfying" endings lead them away from Winterfell (if there's still a Winterfell, it could fall in S8 after the wall) and from each other. It doesn't have to be yet another death.

Weirdly, I'd tend to believe the leak about Dany and the trial precisely because it doesn't quite mesh with what we "know" so far. Trolls generally try to be more in sync' with the popular fandom theories and leanings; and I don't see characters fans or shippers who could temporarily be vindicated by such a foiler (since this feeling is imo often at the root of fake leaks). I, too, have no idea of who it could be, but somehow Melisandre came to my mind. I don't remember if it really was Carice Van Houten on that picture taken at the Dragonstone set a couple of months back.

I was looking forward to the Cersei-Jaime showdown/Valonqar/queenslaying in S7 considering the look on Jaime's face in the Throne room. I know that GoT doesn't do pay-off halfway, but I find myself more and more annoyed that it probably won't happen before S8. Hopefully, Jaime's character development in S7 will also be worth the wait.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

No. How in the world did you get that from what I said?

Because you responded to the 90% figure in "we are as good as 90% sure that he has genuine info" that you were only 40% sure he had genuine info.

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

Jaime has the entire Lannister army and is Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. 

Is he?  He's only ever called the commander of the Lannister armies; if he was Lord of the Rock, it'd be easier to just call him Lord of the Rock.

That weirdness aside, I was just referring to the fact that the leaker suggests Jaime is important to Jon's plans, but I just have a hard time seeing why Jon would place particular emphasis on him.  He doesn't seem inclined to do anything against Cersei's wishes.  But we don't even know that it is Jaime being alluded to in the supposed spoilers, there's just such a poverty of named characters on Cersei's side that it's a pretty small list.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The Northern plot as described by Awayforthelads seemed to have a pretty pat resolution. There's no gut punch: LF tries to drum up conflict between Sansa and Arya, is found out thanks to Bran, and is ultimately executed. While it serves to clear LF off the board, as described it seems a little too tidy and clean, particularly this close to the ending when the show is only ramping up the emotional stakes and the big shocks. It doesn't mean that the Cinetrabajadora leak is more likely to be true, but it does sound as if something's missing. 

Lads makes it sound like the actual "ending" of the Northern plot this year is Bran and Sam realizing Jon's legitimacy.  Combined with the Wall falling, meaning that everyone in Winterfell is right in the path of an army of killer zombies.

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

When it comes to the Stark sisters, again, I always envisioned "bittersweet" as irreconciliable differences making it impossible for them to get along in spite of a real sisterly affection. 

GRRM was using "bittersweet" to refer to the totality of the series' resolution, not to how every character ends things.  Now, I don't think any plots have totally straightforward happy endings (even if Jon and Dany end up as the new Jaehaerys and Alysanne presiding over a new golden age, there's tons of ordinary troubles to deal with).

Quote

Weirdly, I'd tend to believe the leak about Dany and the trial precisely because it doesn't quite mesh with what we "know" so far. 

This particular leaker has deliberately challenged a number of aspects of the Lads leaks (their belief that Sansa dies, most obviously).  If he's trolling people, it's out of a desire to get a rise, and contradicting a key existing source also does the trick (as one can see over at Freefolk).

Quote

I don't remember if it really was Carice Van Houten on that picture taken at the Dragonstone set a couple of months back.

It wasn't.  Carice has been hanging out in Holland with little baby Monte all through filming so far, as far as we know.

Edited December 28, 2016 by SeanC

[Brn2bwild]

(For some reason it looks as though my initial post was eaten.  Trying again.)

As I watched the very last scene Sansa and Arya had together in Season One today, it struck me that Sophie and Maisie might be moved to tears simply because (1) they FINALLY share scenes again and (2) after having such deep differences, there is probably a point where they come together and vow to uphold the Stark family name.

I think there's no way Arya willingly kills Sansa.  That would not be bittersweet -- it would be horrifying.  In the end, the last remaining Starks stick together because winter is finally coming. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Brn2bwild

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I was just referring to the fact that the leaker suggests Jaime is important to Jon's plans, but I just have a hard time seeing why Jon would place particular emphasis on him.  He doesn't seem inclined to do anything against Cersei's wishes.  But we don't even know that it is Jaime being alluded to in the supposed spoilers, t

Jamie is in possession of 1/2 of Ned's sword, that makes him important, I think. But that's only a stab at a guess.

No idea what to make of the Sansa /Arya thing. I saw the pics of the storyboard, but there's so much room for interpretation and not enough detail to fully trust the new kid's claims.

[WearyTraveler]

Are there any links to these pics?

[Domenicholas]

Could LF have murdered Sansa before Arya kills him?

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Domenicholas said:

Could LF have murdered Sansa before Arya kills him?

That's what the new supposed leaker thinks happens.

It's meaningless to critique this on a plot level (e.g., I'd otherwise say the idea of super-ninja Arya taking so long to find Littlefinger while Sansa apparently wanders off alone so that Baelish can murder her) since the show has shown numerous times that whatever the writers want to happen will happen, so it really comes down to whether you believe Awayforthelads or this new guy (or neither, I guess).  I didn't believe Lads initially, but his track record earns him meaningful consideration from me now; the new guy hasn't done anything to suggest he should be taken seriously yet.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

whatever the writers want to happen will happen,....

The way I see it, that is just what any script of any show/film does.

[GrailKing]

On 12/26/2016 at 2:54 PM, Eyes High said:

On the new spoilers front...

A leaker based in Spain has provided what they claim to be information about two Arya scenes in 7x07. One was filmed on October 24th and is an Arya/LF scene.

The second is supposedly Arya's second-last scene in 7x07. The leaker storyboards from an Arya scene in the Season 7 finale. One image shows Arya peeking around a corner. The other shows Arya's shadow on a floor covered in blood, and the blood appears to be oozing from the bed. According to the leaker, this room is the lord's chamber at Winterfell (the one Jon and Sansa were talking about in 6x10), and the leaker believes that the blood is Sansa's.

If this sounds at odds with the previous leaks from Awayforthelads, that's because they are. Awayforthelads said that Sansa would order LF's execution and that Arya would carry out that order. Awayforthelads was also very clear that Sansa would survive. So who knows?

The Spanish leaker promised more tidbits but disappeared. So we'll see.

Sansa could still order the killing if Arya found her still alive, Lads could have left that part out.

As for me I be totally bummed.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa could still order the killing if Arya found her still alive, Lads could have left that part out.

Lads was explicit that only Littlefinger dies.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Lads was explicit that only Littlefinger dies.

He / she may have, but can still be off on the prediction, I take both Lads and Cine with a grain, though Lads has been proven correct on most, I think some things are left unknown.

[GrailKing]

I see this was either updated yesterday or posted yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1oTKyzu_2w

[Eyes High]

Cinetrabajadora is back with a fresh set of potential spoiler (and just assume that all of this comes with an "allegedly" caveat so that I don't have to type "allegedly" a dozen times):

1. Cersei: Cine posted an alleged storyboard image of a Cersei scene filmed in Belfast on September 8th for 7x02. According to Cine, the scene is set in the Red Keep interior. The Mountain and Qyburn are also present. Cersei has another scene with Qyburn in 7x02, as well as another scene with Jaime where there's a fight, either between Jaime and Cersei or between Cersei and someone else. Cersei is giving the Mountain a gift in this scene, which causes the fight later.

2. Sam: Cine saw part of a scene filmed in Spain, where John Bradley walks through an exterior into a tavern. The tavern interior was filmed in an old crypt in Sevilla, with two dozen extras around, with three or four in dark robes. Sam enters the tavern on the way out of Oldtown. Sam has been trying to find something out that Gilly told him (?) and someone tells Sam to come to the tavern. Sam meets with this person in the tavern. Cine thinks this person is supposed to be a Faceless Man. The man gives Sam some information that is what Sam is looking for, then Sam takes Gilly and the baby and they leave Oldtown to find Jon. Cine posted an image from the supposed storyboard where Sam meets with the hooded man. Cine says this scene is from 7x04.
 
3. Big death: There is a big death (bigger than Littlefinger or the Sand Snakes), but Cine doesn't know who it is. Last season the crew knew that there would be a surprise crowning and that Arya would kill someone on her list, but they didn't know the specifics. Cine knows someone big dies and, while not knowing who, believes it's Sansa.

4. Tom Wlasicha: Cine stated in the comments that Tom Wlasicha (Jaqen/Kindly Man) filmed in Belfast for Season 7.

Cine is promising one last batch of spoilers/foilers, including information about Tyrion in Episode 7 and about Jon.

Possibly related:

@yeahclarke on Twitter, a user who posted a while back about having some behind the scenes photos from various locations that they would be waiting until after filming over to post, just posted that "Interestingly, one of the photos could be related to that Arya storyboard thing posted on [Freefolk] days ago." 

This exchange then followed:

@pinkwigstarbuck: You mean the inkblot

@yeahclarke: Lmao but it's related. Was mind blown when they posted the photos.

@yeahclarke: But [in] reality, the photo alone doesn't give much away anyway.
 

And then this:

@parisartisan: Interesting. Does it involve any other characters along with Arya?

@yeahclarke: It's a set photo, there's no one in it but also means there's a restricted number of characters that could be involved.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Eyes High

[Brn2bwild]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I see this was either updated yesterday or posted yesterday:

 

  Hide contents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1oTKyzu_2w

What??

Spoiler

Jon dies AGAIN?

[GreyBunny]

^ I hope that part isn't true.  Otherwise they should just name him Kenny or Glenn, because, really.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even know if I should be using spoiler tags with this, or not. 

Spoiler

 

That's overkill with Jon. And at least Berric is deader than dead in the books, so whatever goes down with Jon on the TV show will not be happening like that in the books..

And I also have a really difficult time accepting that his real name is Aegon, it's making me twitchy. I'd think someone who already has a child with that name wouldn't be looking to name his next child the same name as his first born. I super hate this. Also, it's such a douche move, and I'll have to wait for the books to come out to understand what the motivation behind the name is because the show will not explain it.

Also, leave Edd alone. This whole trip beyond The Wall sounds like a thinning of the herd more than anything, and just leave Edd alone because leave him alone! Also, what a stupid plan! 

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[SeanC]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

2. Sam: Cine saw part of a scene filmed in Spain, where John Bradley walks through an exterior into a tavern. The tavern interior was filmed in an old crypt in Sevilla, with two dozen extras around, with three or four in dark robes. Sam enters the tavern on the way out of Oldtown. Sam has been trying to find something out that Gilly told him (?) and someone tells Sam to come to the tavern. Sam meets with this person in the tavern. Cine thinks this person is supposed to be a Faceless Man. The man gives Sam some information that is what Sam is looking for, then Sam takes Gilly and the baby and they leave Oldtown to find Jon. Cine posted an image from the supposed storyboard where Sam meets with the hooded man. Cine says this scene is from 7x04.
.... 
4. Tom Wlasicha: Cine stated in the comments that Tom Wlasicha (Jaqen/Kindly Man) filmed in Belfast for Season 7.

This also strikes me as somewhat unlikely at this point, and I say that as somebody who until recently thought the signs were pointing to some version of the book Oldtown plot.  

But we shall see, I suppose.

Edited December 29, 2016 by SeanC

[Aziraphale]

By now I'm just really confused by who is a real spoiler source (or maybe allegedly real) and who is more likely to post foilers. I guess I'm going like this: actual pics/videos > the first batch of leaked spoilers > everything new. For my own sanity.

I was never a person who thought that Sansa was 100% safe, but that spoilers strikes me as false somehow. Maybe because it comes together with those weird Dany spoilers? Suddenly she's supposed to outright ignore all her advisors, which she has never done before? And Jon is going to sleep/fall in love with her after she puts a person important to him/his plan on trial (for what even?)? 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Aziraphale

[SimoneS]

Those spoilers from the YT video are detailed as hell. It all sounds plausible. If true, I love all these plot lines. I have no problem with Jon being named Aegon or dying again although there seems to be some doubt about this. I always thought that Aegon was Jon's given name as Jon is an obvious abbreviation that Ned came up with. Viserion dying sucks, but if it leads to Jon and Daenerys having sex I can live with it. Sansa plotting with Arya to kill Littlefinger makes me happy as does Jaime leaving with Brienne. If they both survive, I hope that they marry. The only spoiler I hate is Yara dying while Theon lives so I hope it isn't true.

Edited December 30, 2016 by SimoneS

[glowbug]

The YouTube leaks sound plausible and most of them don't bother me except for Jon dying for a second time, Ghost being all but absent and Jon's name being Aegon. I do wonder at HBO not having the link taken down though. They have to be aware of it. I wonder if this indicates it's a fake or if they just don't want to tip people off to the validity of the spoilers. 

[bunnyblue]

That YouTube video is obvious BS because D&D have no love for the direwolves, so there's no way they are going to increase the direwolf budget by having Nymeria reunite with Arya and Ghost, and then have them all hang out at Winterfell. If Nymeria appears at all, it'll be to either tie up that loose end in Arya's story or to die. My money is on dying.

As for all those Reddit leakers that have come out of the woodwork this week: yeesh! It seems everybody has a source, lol. Cine had me believing there for a while (storyboards!) but with his latest Jon-beyond-the-wall hot mess of an info dump (Dany's jealous of Jon so she leaves him to die?!), I'm solidly off his hype train. Too bad too because as someone who does not like Sansa, I was hoping he was legit and I'd be rid of her by season's end. 

I can't be too annoyed at all these foilers, though, because at least we have something to talk about while production takes their 2 week break. Hopefully there will be more filming pics (where the hell is PAP4U?) and cast sightings once production resumes in January.

Edited December 30, 2016 by bunnyblue

[Happy Harpy]

On 28/12/2016 at 1:00 AM, SeanC said:

GRRM was using "bittersweet" to refer to the totality of the series' resolution, not to how every character ends things.

I meant "when it comes to the Stark sisters" as in "if they are characters who have a bittersweet ending/are part of the bittersweet ending".

4 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

As for all those Reddit leakers that have come out of the woodwork this week: yeesh! It seems everybody has a source, lol. Cine had me believing there for a while (storyboards!) but with his latest Jon-beyond-the-wall hot mess of an info dump (Dany's jealous of Jon so she leaves him to die?!), I'm solidly off his hype train.

It seems to me that some people have way too much time on their hands during the holidays. Everything is possible but Jon dying while his parentage is just being pieced together sounds highly doubtful in terms of timing/storytelling. Moreover Dany's jealousy fits right into the category of "foilers born from fanwars", although I personally don't get the "Jon vs Dany" debate.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

That YouTube video is obvious BS because D&D have no love for the direwolves, so there's no way they are going to increase the direwolf budget by having Nymeria reunite with Arya and Ghost, and then have them all hang out at Winterfell. If Nymeria appears at all, it'll be to either tie up that loose end in Arya's story or to die. My money is on dying.

I don't think that it is about not loving the direwolves. Rather it is not having the budget to do the CGI for the direwolves when most of it has to be spent on the dragons and battle scenes which are far more integral to the story. Since there are only seven episodes this season, it is possible that there is money available to do the CGI for the direwolves. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by SimoneS

[Wouter]

People should remember: Awayforthelads now has reached a certain status of relative reliability because he predicted some things that nobody else could have (unless they had real info) and some of the filming spoilers have (independently) confirmed quite a bit of that. It is now too late to just serve him off as a random fantast.

The others have proven nothing so far and as most leaks of this kind, everything could have been made up. And since most of the leaks of this kind are totally made up, chances are this is the case here, too. It will be interesting to see if Sue of TWotW will comment on this - usually she has a good idea what's BS and what's not.

There have been fans predicting Sansa would die since she lost her direwolf in the books, and this filming season the predictions have been very insistent after the tattoo thing of the involved actresses was reported. It wouldn't take much to present a leak that would gain traction (and cast doubt on lads at the same time, a bonus if HBO would be spreading this themselves) with this portion of the fans.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

People should remember: Awayforthelads now has reached a certain status of relative reliability because he predicted some things that nobody else could have (unless they had real info) and some of the filming spoilers have (independently) confirmed quite a bit of that. It is now too late to just serve him off as a random fantast.

The others have proven nothing so far and as most leaks of this kind, everything could have been made up. And since most of the leaks of this kind are totally made up, chances are this is the case here, too. It will be interesting to see if Sue of TWotW will comment on this - usually she has a good idea what's BS and what's not.

There have been fans predicting Sansa would die since she lost her direwolf in the books, and this filming season the predictions have been very insistent after the tattoo thing of the involved actresses was reported. It wouldn't take much to present a leak that would gain traction (and cast doubt on lads at the same time, a bonus if HBO would be spreading this themselves) with this portion of the fans.

If Cine is a fake, his level of commitment is admirable: sketching multiple fake storyboards just to bamboozle the folks at /freefolk is above and beyond as far as fakers go.

Sansa has had "doomed" written all over her for years. There are a number of death flags in the books for Sansa (although to be fair there are death flags for pretty much every lead character at this point), Sansa is not one of the "main five" guaranteed safe passage through the books in GRRM's infamous outline and seems to die in the outline fairly early on, GRRM freely admits to having created Sansa as a foil for Arya and to drum up conflict between the Starks, Sansa's in an unhappy marriage to Tyrion that is unlikely to be undone via annulment in the books (meaning that she's going to have to die to free Tyrion from it), and of course, as you pointed out, her wolf is dead.

Furthermore, leading up to Season 7 filming there have been a number of other potential death flags for TV Sansa. Maisie described Season 7 as "heartbreaking" (an odd word choice if Awayforthelads' version of the S7 Winterfell plot is correct). Maisie and Sophie moved up their matching commemorative tattoos to Season 7 rather than waiting for Season 8. Sophie mentioned in an interview a few months ago that she had an upcoming project that she couldn't talk about yet; if she can't talk about it, it may be because it's in the order of a lead in an ongoing series and therefore spoils Sansa's death.

None of the above is on Cine. If the leak is gaining traction among fans, there is good reason for it.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Cine is a fake, his level of commitment is admirable: sketching multiple fake storyboards just to bamboozle the folks at /freefolk is above and beyond as far as fakers go.

Sansa has had "doomed" written all over her for years. There are a number of death flags in the books for Sansa (although to be fair there are death flags for pretty much every lead character at this point), Sansa is not one of the "main five" guaranteed safe passage through the books in GRRM's infamous outline and seems to die in the outline fairly early on, GRRM freely admits to having created Sansa as a foil for Arya and to drum up conflict between the Starks, Sansa's in an unhappy marriage to Tyrion that is unlikely to be undone via annulment in the books (meaning that she's going to have to die to free Tyrion from it), and of course, as you pointed out, her wolf is dead.

Furthermore, leading up to Season 7 filming there have been a number of other potential death flags for TV Sansa. Maisie described Season 7 as "heartbreaking" (an odd word choice if Awayforthelads' version of the S7 Winterfell plot is correct). Maisie and Sophie moved up their matching commemorative tattoos to Season 7 rather than waiting for Season 8. Sophie mentioned in an interview a few months ago that she had an upcoming project that she couldn't talk about yet; if she can't talk about it, it may be because it's in the order of a lead in an ongoing series and therefore spoils Sansa's death.

None of the above is on Cine. If the leak is gaining traction among fans, there is good reason for it.

Can you imagine the reactions of some book fans if Show-Sansa dies? It will become the loudest neverending (until WoW or aDoS get published) discussion among a big part of the ASOIAF fandom if it is only an idea of the showrunners or something than GRRM will do in the novels too. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GreyBunny]

Freefolk rumors:

1) Jon jumping on Benjen's horse to escape the wights may be misdirection. Jon escapes on the back of a dragon (Rhaegal) and claims it as his.

2) Mel sees in her flames R'hllor wants her to die by dragonfire. She asks Dany to roast her. 

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

None of the above is on Cine. If the leak is gaining traction among fans, there is good reason for it.

It could be gaining traction simply because it vindicates the opinions and deductions of  a (rather large and/or vocal) part of the fandom. Leaks can make sense and be coherent with certain facts, yet it isn't positive proof they're true. Maybe they are, of course I have absolutely no idea, I just mean that no filming spoiler gives them credibility so far (trolling can be an art re: the storyboards). I'm not sure that the first leaker was right about everything, I don't think he knows everything and I believe that his interpretations aren't 100% on spot, but filming spoilers came to support a good number of hard facts that seemed totally fanciful to many when he first posted them. Therefore I believe his spoilers that are related to these facts, and take his other leaks with a significantly smaller grain of salt.

Of course, I've always felt that he knew less about the Winterfell plot. The Sansa dilemma reminds me of the Shireen situation. There were elements (the greyscale plot both in show and books, for one) that seemed to give her a raison d'être at some point. Others hinted at the fate that was hers in the end. I agree with most of your arguments against Sansa's survival, but imo some point in the other direction; it isn't wishful thinking since she's around the top of my list of expendable "good guys". It's interesting that you mention her marriage to Tyrion since in my view it's actually the biggest "pro" for her being an end-game character. It depends of course on how far GRR Martin intends to go with the War of the Roses parallel (it could be irrelevant now with the fantasy war) but they are the Lancaster/York couple of ASOIAF. It should be cleared very early in S7, though: If the marriage is significant, it will be mentioned again on both sides.

These last days,  I'm very close to believe the TV conspirationists. Maybe HBO and TPTB changed their strategy and instead of trying to silence the leakers,  inundate reddit and other venues with a couple of legit spoilers/believable options wrapped in tons of foilers in order to create controversy and dilute the effect of the real leaks.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[YaddaYadda]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I always thought that Aegon was Jon's given name as Jon is an obvious abbreviation that Ned came up with. 

I always thought Ned gave Jon his name after Jon Arryn who was like a father to him. 

The whole kiss of life from Berric had me wondering if something like that might happen in the books but with Lady Stoneheart instead? Or it could be based off absolutely nothing since the show is now well ahead of the books anyway.

I'm mostly wondering about the importance of the Dany/Jon sex at this point and if it's something that's going to turn out to be important. And I feel like the whole R+L=J is a lot more important to the plot in the books than it is in the series. As a huge fan of the whole Jon is is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (squee!), I find myself kind of meh on the whole thing when it comes to it on the show. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I always thought Ned gave Jon his name after Jon Arryn who was like a father to him. 

I always thought Ned named him Jon knowing that everyone would think just this, but we should find out Jon's birth name soon enough. 

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Can you imagine the reactions of some book fans if Show-Sansa dies? It will become the loudest neverending (until WoW or aDoS get published) discussion among a big part of the ASOIAF fandom if it is only an idea of the showrunners or something than GRRM will do in the novels too. 

Even if Sansa's not one of the main five, she is a prominent character in the books. There's no reason to believe her fate in the show and the books would differ.

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Of course, I've always felt that he knew less about the Winterfell plot. The Sansa dilemma reminds me of the Shireen situation. There were elements (the greyscale plot both in show and books, for one) that seemed to give her a raison d'être at some point. Others hinted at the fate that was hers in the end. I agree with most of your arguments against Sansa's survival, but imo some point in the other direction; it isn't wishful thinking since she's around the top of my list of expendable "good guys". It's interesting that you mention her marriage to Tyrion since in my view it's actually the biggest "pro" for her being an end-game character.

As far as I can tell, GRRM didn't go into the outline planning to marry off Sansa to Tyrion. It seems to have been a product of his gardener approach. However, he did go into the outline planning to have Tyrion survive the series. Furthermore, he has also said that he has always known what Tyrion's arc and what the ending were going to be. So if he didn't plan on marrying Sansa to Tyrion from the outset, he did plan on Tyrion surviving the series, and if he never changed his mind about Tyrion's ending, I think it's pretty clear whether Tyrion and Sansa's marriage is going to survive the series. If one assumes that an annulment is unlikely, as I do, I think it's also pretty clear whether Sansa is going to survive the series. 

Outline Tyrion had a desperate, unrequited love for Arya. I'm guessing that ASOIAF Tyrion, whose ending GRRM has claimed to have always known, will be similarly lovelorn to the end, even if the object of his affection is Tysha and not Arya. That means no marriage, and if an annulment is not feasible, that means no Sansa. 

ETA: Cine is in with his last batch of possible spoilers, summarized as follows:

1. Tyrion and Dany have a scene where they argue over getting food from the Reach for her army. Since Olenna is dead, they have to go through Randyll. (Grey Worm goes to speak to Randyll.) Tyrion wants to negotiate with Jaime directly to get food. Dany wants to take the food with her army. They argue, and Tyrion can't convince Dany although he's frustrated. After this scene, she ambushes Jaime and the food convoy.

2. 7x07: Cersei has a scene with Euron about how she plans to use wildfire to burn the dragons at the pit. Dany talks to Tyrion about taking the rest of the city and the Red Keep from Cersei but Tyrion says they need more time. Dany tells Missandei that she plans to have Drogon burn the Red Keep to take it from Cersei while everyone's at the dragonpit and will tell Cersei whatever in the meantime so that Cersei won't resist.

3. 7x07 Dragonpit meeting: Dany and Cersei speak like they're about to fight. Jon shows the wight, which is then chopped up. Rhaegal is in the dragonpit as well. Jon tells Cersei that nothing matters in the south because the wights are coming and they need the Lannister army. Cersei agrees to give them the army if Dany bends the knee. Dany knew this would happen so she brings out Jaime, whom she had nabbed while he was trying to keep the KL citizens from killing each other over food shortages. (Tyrion doesn't find out about Jaime being taken until the last minute and is not pleased.) Dany says she will kill Jaime; Jaime tells Jon that Cersei won't bend the knee to Dany.

4. 7x07 Dragonpit meeting, pt. 2: Dany says that she intends to put Jaime through a trial by combat to settle it. Tyrion argues with Dany and begs her to stop. Dany says that she can take the Lannister army once Jaime is dead. Tyrion argues that they need Jaime. Dany won't listen and informs Jaime that his trial will be against Rhaegal. Rhaegal starts to breathe fire. Jaime's army surrounds the dragonpit and his friends produce the dragon-downing gun. Jaime uses the dragon-downing gun to wound Rhaegal, who flies above and is going to burn them up.

5. 7x07 Dragonpit meeting, pt. 3: Everyone is ready to kill each other, but Tyrion jumps down and shouts to get their attention. Tyrion gives a big speech about wights and the big threat. He also chews out Cersei, Dany and Jon. (More or less "Dany, the people of Westeros need to love you and they won't if you keep killing them. Jon, you need Jaime to lead the big army. Cersei, you'll have no people in your power if they're all dead.") Chastened, I guess, Dany decides to have peace if Cersei gives the food. Cersei says she will provide the food and the Lannister army led by Jaime. Jon says that he doesn't care about who's king or queen, he'll lead the fight. To seal the deal, they drink on it; Tyrion pours wine for the four of them. 

6. 7x07 post-Dragonpit meeting: Jaime tells Cersei she won't provide the food or the army. Jaime says fine, the Lannisters are supposed to rule; he later leaves in the night and takes the entire army and all the food. Jon is with Dany and Tyrion. Jon is worried about the NK. Dany says she doesn't think Cersei will adhere to what she said. Tyrion says not to worry about it. Dany agrees, because she has sent Drogon to burn the Red Keep.

7. 7x07, end: Cersei wakes up when someone tells her that Jaime has left with the army. Cersei starts to bleed everywhere because Tyrion poisoned her wine. Drogon is flying to burn the keep. There's a series of intercuts between Cersei bleeding, the Wall cracking, Jaime with his army, and Tyrion, Jon and Dany planning how to fight. The Wall starts to crumble as the NK is riding dead Viserion.

Sounds like it's a negative on boat sex. After all that.

Two big problems with Cine's spoilers, though. The first is that Cine claimed that Emilia filmed a scene in Malpartida on October 22nd, the same day she was in the Basque region (nowhere near Malpartida) filming a scene with Kit. The second is that Cine also seems to imply that Cersei dies after being poisoned by Tyrion. We know that Lena Headey negotiated pay per episode in Season 8. Unless her corpse is being featured in 8x01, that suggests she survives Season 7.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Eyes High

[Brn2bwild]

59 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Outline Tyrion had a desperate, unrequited love for Arya. I'm guessing that ASOIAF Tyrion, whose ending GRRM has claimed to have always known, will be similarly lovelorn to the end, even if the object of his affection is Tysha and not Arya. That means no marriage, and if an annulment is not feasible, that means no Sansa. 

Of course in the show, Sansa has already been married off to Ramsay while still married to Tyrion.  I would imagine Tyrion -- in light of that and in light of the Seven being weakened as a result of the High Sparrow and many devotees being murdered -- would find the nearest septon/septa, tell that person he and Sansa never consummated their marriage, and ask to release her from their vows.

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Cine is a fake, his level of commitment is admirable: sketching multiple fake storyboards just to bamboozle the folks at /freefolk is above and beyond as far as fakers go.

Sansa has had "doomed" written all over her for years. There are a number of death flags in the books for Sansa (although to be fair there are death flags for pretty much every lead character at this point), Sansa is not one of the "main five" guaranteed safe passage through the books in GRRM's infamous outline and seems to die in the outline fairly early on, GRRM freely admits to having created Sansa as a foil for Arya and to drum up conflict between the Starks, Sansa's in an unhappy marriage to Tyrion that is unlikely to be undone via annulment in the books (meaning that she's going to have to die to free Tyrion from it), and of course, as you pointed out, her wolf is dead.

Furthermore, leading up to Season 7 filming there have been a number of other potential death flags for TV Sansa. Maisie described Season 7 as "heartbreaking" (an odd word choice if Awayforthelads' version of the S7 Winterfell plot is correct). Maisie and Sophie moved up their matching commemorative tattoos to Season 7 rather than waiting for Season 8. Sophie mentioned in an interview a few months ago that she had an upcoming project that she couldn't talk about yet; if she can't talk about it, it may be because it's in the order of a lead in an ongoing series and therefore spoils Sansa's death.

None of the above is on Cine. If the leak is gaining traction among fans, there is good reason for it.

His level of commitment to spreading fake spoilers would be considerable if he were working for the series and intent on providing misdirection so fans don't know ahead of time what's going to happen.

[GreyBunny]

As far as I'm concerned, Cine is a fake until proven otherwise.  Even the storyboards Cine posted are poorer in quality and don't match the style of known GOT storyboards.

ETA: Cine's reddit account is deleted.

Edited December 31, 2016 by GreyBunny

[Brn2bwild]

32 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

As far as I'm concerned, Cine is a fake until proven otherwise.  Even the storyboards Cine posted are poorer in quality and don't match the style of known GOT storyboards.

ETA: Cine's reddit account is deleted.

People were commenting that he was claiming Emilia Clarke and Peter Dinklage were filming scenes that they couldn't possibly be filming because on that day, they were actually several hours away.

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Of course in the show, Sansa has already been married off to Ramsay while still married to Tyrion.  I would imagine Tyrion -- in light of that and in light of the Seven being weakened as a result of the High Sparrow and many devotees being murdered -- would find the nearest septon/septa, tell that person he and Sansa never consummated their marriage, and ask to release her from their vows.

His level of commitment to spreading fake spoilers would be considerable if he were working for the series and intent on providing misdirection so fans don't know ahead of time what's going to happen.

Yes, it would be a good counter-strategy by HBO.

As for Tyrion and the original outline, there is yet another possibility: Martin changed his plans since the original outline. Tyrion didn't fall in love with Arya and didn't besiege and burn Winterfell, for example. Yet some cling to the outline as if the entire outcome of ASOIAF was leaked there. Maybe Tyrion ended up as king in both versions, maybe he ended up with Castery Rock or maybe he died in both. Other things could differ radically, and indeed do differ radically seeing as Tyrion's actual book storyline is barely recognisable from the original outline. Same goes for Jaime, Sansa, Arya and Catelyn.

[domina89]

I realize most of these new spoilers are most likely fake, but I actually like the idea of Tyrion poisoning Cersei. Especially if he uses the poison called The Strangler. It would service the valonqar prophecy from the books quite nicely, but in a creative way.

[SimoneS]

Yeah, all those Cine spoilers sound fake as hell.

[FemmyV]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:47 PM, Brn2bwild said:

His level of commitment to spreading fake spoilers would be considerable if he were working for the series and intent on providing misdirection so fans don't know ahead of time what's going to happen.

Too fan-ficky for me.

[BlackberryJam]

Cine has vanished, but are there any of the other (probably fake) leakers still around?

[Constantinople]

7 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Cine has vanished

Words are wind.

[WearyTraveler]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Words are wind.

It's been said half a hundred times...

 

:'D

[Eyes High]

On 12/31/2016 at 6:43 AM, Wouter said:

Yes, it would be a good counter-strategy by HBO.

As for Tyrion and the original outline, there is yet another possibility: Martin changed his plans since the original outline. Tyrion didn't fall in love with Arya and didn't besiege and burn Winterfell, for example.

Except that GRRM has been pretty clear that he intends to adhere to the original ending and has always known what Tyrion's arc and Tyrion's ending were going to be. He has deviated from the outline, true--Tyrion didn't burn down Winterfell, Tyrion vs. Jon over Arya became ASOIAF Ramsay vs. Jon over "Arya"--but he doesn't seem to think that those deviations have done violence to what he imagined as Tyrion's arc, and he has always insisted that he's going to stick with the original ending he envisaged. Whatever the original ending for Tyrion, it is very unlikely to involve Sansa, as it seems as if GRRM planned on killing Sansa off circa the outline (and likely still plans on doing so, in my opinion), and therefore the ASOIAF ending for Tyrion will not involve Sansa either.

Quote

Yet some cling to the outline as if the entire outcome of ASOIAF was leaked there. Maybe Tyrion ended up as king in both versions, maybe he ended up with Castery Rock or maybe he died in both.

The outline seems to rule out Tyrion's death. Sansa's, on the other hand...

Quote

Other things could differ radically, and indeed do differ radically seeing as Tyrion's actual book storyline is barely recognisable from the original outline.

I think that is an exaggeration. Outline Tyrion struggles with his loyalty towards his family He initially fights for the Lannisters and strongly disapproves of Joffrey's tyranny. After Joffrey's death, he is forced into exile thanks to the machinations of a power-hungry relative, where he plots revenge against his family. There are differences, absolutely, but "barely recognizable"? I don't think so.

Quote

Same goes for Jaime

GRRM decided at some point to give Jaime's role--the power-hungry Lannister sibling bent on Tyrion's destruction--to Cersei, but the arc is still there. Jaime and Cersei are less prominent characters than Tyrion and the other members of the main five, so it's not surprising that their arcs have changed from the outline.

As for Sansa, it is possible that even if GRRM planned on killing her off that he later decided to spare her in ASOIAF. However, the problem with that is if he knew Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's endings and intends to stick with those endings, he must have already planned without reference to Sansa for an endgame lord/lady of Winterfell (Bran or Arya), an endgame king/queen (Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya, probably), and some sort of ending for Tyrion (lonely lord of Casterly Rock pining for a lost love, probably), and has no intention of disturbing those outcomes, as he has said. That doesn't leave much room for Sansa. Narratively, she really has nowhere realistic to go. She could still live to the end in ASOIAF, but it seems likely that if that happens that she'll pull a Nettles and disappear (blah blah SanSan, probably). Of course, Sansa is a POV character in her own right in the books, so it's unlikely in either the books or the show that she'll just disappear into the ether, which is yet another reason why it's more likely in my opinion that she dies.

Interestingly, I've seen a few fans argue that as of AGOT, GRRM was clearly planning on including certain elements that he later decided to change in ASOIAF. For example, they argue that Jon thinking of Jaime when he first sees him that Jaime is what a king should look like was a hint that Jaime would have the role that he had in the outline, or that the direwolves lashing out at Tyrion was a hint at Tyrion burning down Winterfell as he did in the outline. I tend to doubt it myself, particularly since Cersei was already showing her claws in AGOT, but it's an interesting theory.

Quote

Of course in the show, Sansa has already been married off to Ramsay while still married to Tyrion. 

The show has played fast and loose with Sansa's marital status at law in order to make the Ramsay marriage happen, but of course Sansa's marital status won't matter at all if she's going to die in any event, as I suspect she is. I suspect the show was sloppy when it came to justifying Sansa's ability to marry Ramsay without an annulment because Sansa's going to die in any event and render the whole debate over Sansa's marital status academic.

Speaking of Tyrion's endgame, I saw a theory from TyrionTLannister over at Reddit that Tyrion might end up as Lord of Winterfell in the end in a King Jon/Queen Arya ending, holding it until Jon and I assume Arya's kid comes of age, even with Sansa out of the picture. There do seem to be some hints that Tyrion might end up with Winterfell:

1. "Tyrion had only the vaguest memory of Theon Greyjoy from his time with the Starks. A callow youth, always smiling, skilled with a bow; it was hard to imagine him as Lord of Winterfell. The Lord of Winterfell would always be a Stark."

2. "'The gods give with one hand and take with the other,' he muttered under his breath when Varys told him. They had given the Starks Harrenhal and taken Winterfell, a dismal exchange."

3. "'By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.' His mouth tightened. 'To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.'”

4. Possible hint that Casterly Rock will not last until the end: "But Tywin Lannister endured, eternal as Casterly Rock."

5. "Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill."

6. "'By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.' 'To Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.'" (Jon's father is Rhaegar, not Ned, though.)

Edited January 3, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

^ Agree with everything you said. As far as I can see, Sansa has only two possible endings: Death or going off with the Hound to a simple life. A third possibility would be her being Lady of the Vale considering that her character has some similarities with Lysa Arryn and I am not sure what is going to happen to the Vale at the end of it all. SweetRobin is likely not long for this world and Sansa could end up marrying Harry the Heir, who seems like a dick in TWoW, but maybe that will change. On the show though, they have negated her relationships with both the Hound and the Vale. So maybe death it is.

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The show has played fast and loose with Sansa's marital status at law in order to make the Ramsay marriage happen, but of course Sansa's marital status won't matter at all if she's going to die in any event, as I suspect she is. I suspect the show was sloppy when it came to justifying Sansa's ability to marry Ramsay without an annulment because Sansa's going to die in any event and render the whole debate over Sansa's marital status academic.

I am still confused as to how LF is planning to have Sansa married to HH and then reveal her as Sansa Stark, heir to Winterfell in the books. He is counting on Tyrion being dead, but how can he prove that Tyrion is indeed dead. Tyrion is probably going to turn up again in Westeros soon. Plus, Sansa would have to request an annulment/divorce from the High Septon as Sansa Stark which would mean that the KL folks would know that she is alive and her location.

Edited January 4, 2017 by anamika

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

On the show though, they have negated her relationships with both the Hound and the Vale. So maybe death it is.

It seems very likely that Sansa will die. If GRRM spares Sansa, it will be for her to disappear with the Hound, never to be heard from again; GRRM does have that freedom within the preexisting framework of the 1991 endgames which would bar Sansa from ruling Winterfell and from the Iron Throne. Just because GRRM has that freedom to spare Sansa, though, it doesn't mean he will exercise it. I disagree that the show has completely ruled out a SanSan endgame, but it's looking less and less likely, so death it is.

As for Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, Tyrion hasn't even mentioned Sansa since Season 4, and Sansa hasn't mentioned Tyrion since Season 5. I'm guessing that when Jon and Tyrion discuss everything that's happened since their last meeting as Awayforthelads said they do, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa won't even come up.

Quote

I am still confused as to how LF is planning to have Sansa married to HH and then reveal her as Sansa Stark, heir to Winterfell in the books. He is counting on Tyrion being dead, but how can he prove that Tyrion is indeed dead.

The inability of the would-be bounty claimers to fool Cersei proves how difficult it would be to fake Tyrion's death. Book Tyrion had a set of features that would be difficult to duplicate (a long-severed nose, e.g.). 

Quote

Plus, Sansa would have to request an annulment/divorce from the High Septon as Sansa Stark which would mean that the KL folks would know that she is alive and her location.

A proper annulment, sure; GRRM said as much. Book Littlefinger may get impatient with waiting around for Sansa to be "safely widowed" and just scare up some sort of faux annulment from a local septon--worked for Tyrion's first marriage, after all--to fast-track the marriage. For a proper annulment, though, Littlefinger can't obtain one without alerting KL to Sansa's location, and he can't safely reveal Alayne Stone as Sansa Stark when he marries her off to Harry the Heir without a proper annulment, so he's in quite the bind.

If Awayforthelads is right about a major plot point in Season 7 resting on the annulment of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage and the record of that annulment stored at the Citadel, I'm wondering if D&D have written themselves into a corner regarding Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, which was treated and viewed as legally void for non-consummation despite there never having been an annulment (as opposed to the books, where unconsummated marriages may be potentially annulled if an annulment is sought but are not automatically voided). I don't see how the show can include a discussion of the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, which would seem to entail explaining how Westeros marriages are annulled, without by extension excluding Sansa and Tyrion, whose marriage was never annulled by any sort of mechanism but was treated as annulled. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It seems very likely that Sansa will die. If GRRM spares Sansa, it will be for her to disappear with the Hound, never to be heard from again; GRRM does have that freedom within the preexisting framework of the 1991 endgames which would bar Sansa from ruling Winterfell and from the Iron Throne. Just because GRRM has that freedom to spare Sansa, though, it doesn't mean he will exercise it. I disagree that the show has completely ruled out a SanSan endgame, but it's looking less and less likely, so death it is.

As for Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, Tyrion hasn't even mentioned Sansa since Season 4, and Sansa hasn't mentioned Tyrion since Season 5. I'm guessing that when Jon and Tyrion discuss everything that's happened since their last meeting as Awayforthelads said they do, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa won't even come up.

If Awayforthelads is right about a major plot point in Season 7 resting on the annulment of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage and the record of that annulment stored at the Citadel, I'm wondering if D&D have written themselves into a corner regarding Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, which was treated and viewed as legally void for non-consummation despite there never having been an annulment (as opposed to the books, where unconsummated marriages may be potentially annulled if an annulment is sought but are not automatically voided). I don't see how the show can include a discussion of the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, which would seem to entail explaining how Westeros marriages are annulled, without by extension excluding Sansa and Tyrion, whose marriage was never annulled by any sort of mechanism but was treated as annulled. 

 

Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was mentioned in S6, though, by Lyanna Mormont, where I note that she questionned "Lady Bolton or Lannister?". It was also featured in the play and happened to apprise Arya, of all people, of its existence.

About the annulment, there's a simpler solution where D&D didn't write themselves into a corner. Littlefinger and the two Boltons took upon themselves to consider that the non-consummation automatically invalidated Sansa and Tyrion's union because it served their interests; Littlefinger wanting Sansa for himself, he never intended the Bolton alliance to last anyway, and the Boltons only wanted a heir with Ned Stark's blood. The annulment of Rhaegar's first marriage would be the opportunity to establish that there is no such thing as an automatic dissolution and therefore, Sansa and Tyrion are still legally married. The show-only detour would be closed by Sansa's marriage to Ramsay being a sham from A to Z, and Sansa and Tyrion would be back to their marital situation of the books.

Also, the Hound and Sansa didn't mention each other in several seasons, the "kiss" is non-existent on the show, the conversation between Sansa and Brienne about meeting Arya could have led to a mention of Sandor Clegane, and yet it didn't. Arya and Jon didn't mention each other in several seasons, he didn't betray his vows for her on the show, Sansa and Jon didn't allude to a special bond between him and Arya in their "good old times discussion" and by all accounts Jon and Arya will only meet again in S8, if they do, which seems a very short timing for going from brother/sister to lovers unless both are Targaryens. I'm personally against any kind of Starkcest  but if I follow the reasoning "no mention, no end game", Jon/Sansa has more of a leg to stand on in-universe than any of those respective pairings in spite of being (thankfully) more or less sunk by Word of Show-God.

Of course, Lyanna Mormont's question could only be a throwaway line/zinger. The play could only serve as establishing Sansa's lack of loyalty and duplicity in Arya's eyes since she's showed as Tyrion's willing accomplice. D&D can make "non-consummation" an exception on the show; Rhaegar and  Elia having had children, they (he?) needed to ask for an annulment. Sansa might learn in S7/S8 that the Hound was with Arya etc.

It seems to me that in terms of information, D&D go for "strictly necessary"  to the current season's plot and reintroduce old elements/characters only when they're about to pick up a loose end. Example: Benjen in 5x10. I agree that no mention at all of Sansa/Tyrion's marriage in S7 will indicate that it's forgotten and done with. But right now, it's a bit too early for me to pick a likely option.

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It seems very likely that Sansa will die. If GRRM spares Sansa, it will be for her to disappear with the Hound, never to be heard from again; GRRM does have that freedom within the preexisting framework of the 1991 endgames which would bar Sansa from ruling Winterfell and from the Iron Throne.

Why does she need to disappear with him?

Quote

I don't see how the show can include a discussion of the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, which would seem to entail explaining how Westeros marriages are annulled, without by extension excluding Sansa and Tyrion, whose marriage was never annulled by any sort of mechanism but was treated as annulled.

I guess there could be a different procedure for issues regarding unconsummated marriages versus marriages where there are children involved.  There, I just put more thought into this than the writers most likely did.

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

About the annulment, there's a simpler solution where D&D didn't write themselves into a corner. Littlefinger and the two Boltons took upon themselves to consider that the non-consummation automatically invalidated Sansa and Tyrion's union because it served their interests; Littlefinger wanting Sansa for himself, he never intended the Bolton alliance to last anyway, and the Boltons only wanted a heir with Ned Stark's blood. The annulment of Rhaegar's first marriage would be the opportunity to establish that there is no such thing as an automatic dissolution and therefore, Sansa and Tyrion are still legally married. The show-only detour would be closed by Sansa's marriage to Ramsay being a sham from A to Z, and Sansa and Tyrion would be back to their marital situation of the books.

They aren't, though.  Sansa was raped for weeks/months by Ramsay, meaning that, were she still married to Tyrion in the show, there would be no possibility of annulling the marriage, because there's no means to demonstrate it wasn't consummated.

The other issue with the theory that it's just something Littlefinger and the Boltons considered in their own interest is that, e.g., Cersei, on being told that Sansa is to marry Ramsay, raises no objection to her being able to do this.  Hell, nor does Sansa herself.  The only question raised about Sansa's marital status is Lyanna Mormont's jab, and she doesn't know any of the details.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Why does she need to disappear with him?

From a strictly meta perspective, it would be because there was no room for her in GRRM's planned endgame. She's not meant to be queen, she's not meant to end up with or at Winterfell, she's not meant to be Tyrion's wife, and she's not meant to stick around as a player. Having Sansa run off with the Hound, never to be heard from again, is a convenient way of getting her out of the way so that she won't interfere with the long-planned endgame for the main five while sparing her life. It would give Sansa a happy romantic endgame at the cost of her Stark identity, something that has been hinted at in the books ("Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it") and which also conveniently fits with ASOIAF's general themes of anything worth having bearing a great cost (Sansa gets the man she loves, but at the cost of a noblewoman's lifestyle and her birthright) and with Sansa's general arc of learning to value substance (a happy marriage, in this case) over superficial prestige. Sansa, who once betrayed her family for a shot at being queen, consciously deciding to abandon her status as a noblewoman and run off with a nobody would be a fitting ending for her. Her stint as Alayne is also helping accustom Sansa to a more humble mode of living; it could be GRRM "training" her for being permanently deprived of the comforts and privileges her status accords her. Lastly, it may also fit with Sansa losing a wolf named "Lady." "Lady" is dead, and therefore Sansa's status as a lady is also doomed, as opposed to the simpler explanation that Lady's untimely death foreshadows Sansa's.

As for why should she need to disappear with him from an in-story perspective, who knows? Maybe she anticipates that Jon will marry her off to this or that Northern lord to cement the peace. Maybe she wants to marry Sandor and knows that he's too far beneath her in rank for her to ever be able to get away with it and maintain her position, much like Asha knows she can never marry Qarl. Maybe she does something so terrible that Jon or Arya have no choice but to exile her. Maybe Cersei puts out a hit on her that the FM intend to fulfill even after Cersei's death. Lots of possibilities.

The simplest and most likely explanation is that Sansa dies, of course, but I could see how GRRM has left himself some wiggle room to spare Sansa while still preserving his original ending, if he chooses to avail himself of it.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

From a strictly meta perspective, it would be because there was no room for her in GRRM's planned endgame. She's not meant to be queen, she's not meant to end up with or at Winterfell, she's not meant to be Tyrion's wife, and she's not meant to stick around as a player. Having Sansa run off with the Hound, never to be heard from again, is a convenient way of getting her out of the way so that she won't interfere with the long-planned endgame for the main five while sparing her life.

I don't really buy that.  Sansa doesn't need to have some formal position.  Indeed, the character doesn't desire one, at present; she's being forced to learn to play the game essentially to survive, and might continue to act as a fixer or whatever, but there's no reason she couldn't fit into a supporting role at court.  That wouldn't interfere with King Bran (or Lord Bran, or King Jon, or whatever).

As far as social status goes, that would have been an issue if she had wanted to run off in AGOT while Ned had betrothed her to Joffrey, but in the world of post-Long Night Westeros, I can't imagine that would matter.  Even in AGOT-era Westeros, to a great extent the limits of what a person can do are defined by what their head of household (assuming they don't occupy that position themselves) will let them do (Duncan the Small renounced his inheritance rights and married against Aegon V's will, but he seems to have continued to hang out in court circles until his death at Summerhall, and he married much lower than Sansa would be doing if she married the Hound, who comes from a bottom-tier noble family).  It would be extremely out of character for Jon or Bran to demand that Sansa marry somebody they picked out for her.

I don't think "Alayne Stone" fits as any sort of training for Sansa living as a peasant, either.  "Alayne" is a 1%er, in a Westerosi context, just at the lower social end of the 1%.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't really buy that.  Sansa doesn't need to have some formal position.  Indeed, the character doesn't desire one, at present; she's being forced to learn to play the game essentially to survive, and might continue to act as a fixer or whatever, but there's no reason she couldn't fit into a supporting role at court.  That wouldn't interfere with King Bran (or Lord Bran, or King Jon, or whatever).

You overestimate Sansa. Given Sansa's questionable history when it comes to personal ambition and family loyalties, she would be too dangerous a question mark for GRRM to leave at Winterfell or at court to potentially start shit at some indeterminate point in the future, particularly if Starks wind up not only in charge at Winterfell but also at court. Sansa, just like all the other potential shit-disturbers like Littlefinger, needs to be out of the picture, once and for all. GRRM needs to get her out of the way, and having her run off with Sandor never to be heard from again accomplishes that while putting a romantic Beauty and the Beast gloss on the whole thing.

Nothing we have seen suggests that Sansa would be satisfied with a "supporting role at court" subordinate to one or more of her siblings. The show seems to be doubling down on this as well with Sansa chafing at being subordinate to Jon and fighting with Arya over politics in Season 7, according to Awayforthelads' spoilers. Sansa could never be trusted to serve her family in a subordinate role without ever letting ambition eventually get the better of her. GRRM will have to kill her off or ship her off.

Besides, what sort of "supporting role at court" for Sansa do you envisage? Sansa and Tyrion staring at each other awkwardly across the table at Small Council meetings? Not going to happen. 

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As far as social status goes, that would have been an issue if she had wanted to run off in AGOT while Ned had betrothed her to Joffrey, but in the world of post-Long Night Westeros, I can't imagine that would matter.  

Even rough and tumble Asha, who's all about busting barriers and flouting conventions, is matter of fact about not being able to marry Qarl, even though she seems to love him and even though Balon is dead:

"A shy smile, strong arms, clever fingers, and two sure swords. What more could any woman want? She would have married Qarl, and gladly, but she was Lord Balon's daughter and he was common-born, the grandson of a thrall. Too lowborn for me to wed, but not too low for me to suck his cock."

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It would be extremely out of character for Jon or Bran to demand that Sansa marry somebody they picked out for her.

Are you sure about that? Jon married Alys off to Sigorn without blinking. He didn't demand, but she clearly was not thrilled about his solution to her problems, as her pointed commentary made clear, and he didn't care.

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I don't think "Alayne Stone" fits as any sort of training for Sansa living as a peasant, either.  "Alayne" is a 1%er, in a Westerosi context, just at the lower social end of the 1%.

No, but living at a step down will ease the transition to Sansa living as a peasant. It will still be a drop in Sansa's standard of living, but a less precipitous one than it would be otherwise.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Eyes High