Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Advance35]

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Dany conquering Westeros, dragons helping end the white walkers, Jon/Dany pairing up and ruling...it all seems a little too perfect and neat, the opposite of what GRRM likes to do. So I do think Dany will run into some kind of issue on her way to Westeros. I like the speculation about the storms, and then there's the Ironborn building their thousand ships in a couple weeks. They could also bring the dragonbinding horn into the show still.

That's my issue with it. Jon as King with Dany as his Queen, ruling over the lands of Westeros in peace and prosperity.......the thought just makes me want to heave.  And it's not related to shipping but that like you said, it's SO perfect.   It's almost Harry Potter Ending levels of nauseating.  I guess they could have Dany on the throne and Jon is nothing more then her consort?  I don't know.

But he did say the ending would be bittersweet so I expect some morally grey and even some, villainous characters to survive the whole series.   Are there only going to be good people left in the world?

[jjjmoss]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa's way of talking is really grating, but that's all on Sophie Turner's limits as an actress, I think. At least she has a viable accent, as opposed to whatever Gillen, NCW and Peter Dinklage's nonsense accents are supposed to be.

Sophie Turner is the least limited actor on the show. And you must be confusing "grating" with "perfect for a great queen, which she inevitably becomes."

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, jjjmoss said:

Sophie Turner is the least limited actor on the show. And you must be confusing "grating" with "perfect for a great queen, which she inevitably becomes."

Sophie is very limited as an actress in my opinion, and her terrible, monotone manner of speaking is a good example of one of her many issues. Sophie went for "urgent" in Sansa's scenes with Jon and wound up hitting only "sullen and petulant." She might not be the most wooden of the cast, but she's up there. 

As for Sansa becoming a great queen or any queen at all, that in my opinion is looking less and less likely. She seems on her way out. Jon has a reliable advisor in Davos. The North supports Jon without him requiring Sansa's assistance or backing. AT least two Northern lords are openly disdainful towards Sansa for reasons that she can do nothing to change (her two previous marriages to Stark enemies) and the rest have no issue with passing her over for QITN. The stage is set for LF to persuade her either to abandon Jon or actively work against him, and she has walked back on her previous harshness towards and attempt to repudiate LF in 6x05. Not to mention that Bran is at the Wall and headed back, meaning that her stint as Lady of Winterfell has an imminent expiration date. Sansa is now even more expendable than ever. Season 7 could very well be her last. 

It seems increasingly likely to me that D&D were told at the 2013 meeting with GRRM that Sansa dies. That might explain why the Hound's connection with Sansa was downplayed in Season 4 and beyond (in favour of his relationship with Arya). D&D may have decided to eliminate SanSan from the show since Sansa was doomed in any event. I'm not convinced they have, or that Sansa is necessarily doomed, but it's not looking good for her in my opinion.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

I expect to see Euron attack Dany's armada. Unsullied, Dothraki don't know a whole lot about sailing, let alone warfare at sea.

Although I don't mind the idea of seeing Kit & Emilia bring the pretty, Dany & Jon may not necessarily form a marital alliance. His holding the North is a great bonus for her, if they can ally without marriage it leaves her free to hold that branch out for the Reach or the Riverlands. That leaves Jamie as a possibility.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That might explain why the Hound's connection with Sansa was downplayed in Season 4 and beyond. 

The Hound's connection with Sansa had already been downplayed in Season 3 (and in Seasons 1 and 2, for that matter), so I don't think that follows at all.

3 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Although I don't mind the idea of seeing Kit & Emilia bring the pretty, Dany & Jon may not necessarily form a marital alliance. His holding the North is a great bonus for her, if they can ally without marriage it leaves her free to hold that branch out for the Reach or the Riverlands. That leaves Jamie as a possibility.

Dany already has the Reach on her side.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The Hound's connection with Sansa had already been downplayed in Season 3 (and in Seasons 1 and 2, for that matter), so I don't think that follows at all.

I think D&D tried to do something in Season 2, though. The scrapped serpentine steps scene from 2x03 was an attempt at...something SanSan. Sansa and Sandor had scenes one on one (2x07 or whenever it was, the rescue scene). Sandor told Tyrion "I didn't [save Sansa] for you." It was poorly done, but they did try. The real downplaying--Sandor barely mentioning Sansa to Arya despite spending a whole season with her in Season 4, whereas in the books he couldn't shut up about her, the weird emphasis on the Hound's relationship with Arya--happened later on.

Sansa's endgame in the show and the books has been a bit of a blank slate. Maybe the reason her future seems so vague is that she has none. The whole point of her Season 6 arc seemed to be to get Sansa to a mental and emotional place where she would go back to being influenced by LF, which suggests that that arc is important for her mindset going forward, and that that mindset will be guiding her actions from here on in. With only 13 episodes left, I think that bodes very, very ill for her survival prospects.

My problem with Jon/Sansa being preferred over Jon/Dany is when it seems based on a version of Sansa--modest, gentle, pure, innocent, saintly, etc.--that doesn't exist in the books or the show. Sansa has her moments of compassion and kindness, like many of the other characters (even the characters GRRM has identified as "villains" like Theon), but she's no saint. Historical comparisons to Elizabeth of York based on Elizabeth of York's reputation for gentleness, kindness and so on are therefore ill-conceived, I think.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think D&D tried to do something in Season 2, though. The scrapped serpentine steps scene from 2x03 was an attempt at...something SanSan. Sansa and Sandor had scenes one on one (2x07 or whenever it was, the rescue scene). Sandor told Tyrion "I didn't [save Sansa] for you." It was poorly done, but they did try.

I think the writers tried to do about the minimum while still keeping certain plot points (i.e., Sansa's big climactic scene in 209, which really doesn't make much sense in the show's version, frankly, as a result of all the cuts), and, if SanSan is a thing (or Sandor has some other role in her story, as commonly speculated), at least establishing the characters' interaction.  The deleted 203 scene is the only scene where the sexual component of their interactions is really evident; whether that's squeamishness as a result of the actress' age, I don't know.

They certainly haven't been in a rush to have either character talk about the other afterward, even when it's opportune, though the way they carefully stage-managed Sansa's knowledge of Brienne's involvement with the Hound still stands out to me.  At the time I figured this scene was meant to set up Sansa sending Brienne to look for Arya, but that didn't turn out to be the case.  Given how much the show relied this season on characters being assumed to have swapped backstories offscreen (e.g., the Jon/Sansa reunion in 604), I've wondered whether the reason we actually saw Brienne talk about that was to make explicit that Sansa didn't hear about the Hound (why, I have no idea), which might otherwise be assumed to have happened.  Or it was just a nice character moment to show Sansa smiling when hearing the news -- if so, I appreciate it, though the show doesn't invest a lot of time in such moments (Jon hasn't so much as said Arya's name since they parted ways in 102).

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Sansa's endgame in the show and the books has been a bit of a blank slate. Maybe the reason her future seems so vague is that she has none. The whole point of her Season 6 arc seemed to be to get Sansa to a mental and emotional place where she would go back to being influenced by LF, which suggests that that arc is important for her mindset going forward, and that that mindset will be guiding her actions from here on in. With only 13 episodes left, I think that bodes very, very ill for her survival prospects.

I agree that much of Season 6 was about moving her back into a position where Littlefinger can influence her.  I expect that's because merging Sansa with Jeyne Poole threw a complication into the relationship that doesn't exist in the books, which the writers had to write around.  Basically, they have to put Sansa back into a position of working with him so that the actual final endgame of the relationship, Sansa turning on him because of his betrayal of Ned, can play out.  While I now think they'll probably find a way to have the Hound spend most of Season 7 in the Riverlands or wherever, the fact that he's now with the Brotherhood (and, potentially, Arya and/or Brienne) going forward, and Dondarrion is now all about the White Walkers, seems a fairly obvious signal.

This is all inelegant, on a writing level.  In the books, I expect the story is that we'll just follow Sansa as she grows more skilled at playing the game and also more enmeshed in Littlefinger's web of manipulations, until the Hound, in his usual fashion, cuts through all the BS that Littlefinger has so skillfully deployed.  Sansa's whole book story is built around how deliberately Baelish has isolated her from anybody else.  The show has repeatedly mucked with this setup, by dumping Sansa in amongst other, more trustworthy characters and having her repeatedly talk about how she now gets Baelish and wants to be rid of him.  As with many of the problems I have with this show's writing, it feels like the show wants to jump to Independent Sansa, but still have Independent Sansa play out the main beats of book Sansa, who is most definitely not independent.

Now, what happens in the final season of the Long Night, I don't know.  But I expect Sansa will be there for it.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SeanC

[SimoneS]

Where does this assumption come from that Daenerys and Jon will marry? While this is always a possibility and it is more likely than Jon marrying Sansa, there is absolutely no need for Daenerys and Jon to  marry since he is her nephew and she can designate him her heir. This idea that any of the characters have to marry or pair up with each other has nobasis on what is on the show, IMO.  

If Jon is named Daenerys' heir, I think that he will stay at King's Landing to learn politics and what it means to be a king. I highly doubt that either them are worried about anything happening to them since they will have conquered their enemies and there will be peace in Westeros. Also, without the evil of Littlefinger, Pyrcelle, and Cersei, King's Landing will be very safe.

I agree that Euron will most likely be Daenerys' first real battle on her way to the Iron Throne.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

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Where does this assumption come from that Daenerys and Jon will marry?

I thought that the book HOTU prophecy hinted that Dany's third marriage would be for love, in which case she wouldn't be marrying because she needed to, but because she wanted to.

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Sansa as she grows more skilled at playing the game and also more enmeshed in Littlefinger's web of manipulations, until the Hound, in his usual fashion, cuts through all the BS that Littlefinger has so skillfully deployed.  

This overlooks the fact that TV Sansa and Book Sansa already know that Littlefinger is bad news and they are both still inclined to listen to him and follow his advice. TV Sansa calls LF's vision not a joke or a pathetic fantasy, but a "pretty picture." Book Sansa thinks admiringly that nothing frightens LF and wishes that he were around to tell her what to do. The only terrible truth that the Hound could hit her with is LF betraying Ned, but would that sway her when none of the other shady shit has done, including things he has done to harm her directly (helping frame her for regicide, selling her to the Boltons in the show), has sufficed to see him wholly in a negative light? Chances are she would just rationalize it away the way she has with all the other horrible things she knows for a fact he has done.

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Sansa's whole book story is built around how deliberately Baelish has isolated her from anybody else.  The show has repeatedly mucked with this setup, by dumping Sansa in amongst other, more trustworthy characters and having her repeatedly talk about how she now gets Baelish and wants to be rid of him.

That's just it, though. Maybe her relative independence or isolation isn't the point. Maybe the point is that Sansa's connection with Littlefinger was created at all, not the manner in which it was created. If the point of Sansa being forced to hide out with LF in the Vale for an extended period of time is that Sansa gets to a point where she relies on and listens to LF--and even comes to like his company and enjoy spending time with him--and will go against Jon or whatever based on that advice, which appears increasingly likely in the show, it doesn't matter how much independence or dependence was involved in creating that connection, only that it was created at all. Many romantic relationships in ASOIAF were created under coercive or abusive circumstances, anyway. Depending on how things play out, LF and Sansa's relationship may wind up being no different.

As for Sansa talking repeatedly about how she "wants to be rid of him," I think 6x10 tells quite a different story. I've talked about Sophie's limitations as an actress, but there is a big difference between her dialogue with LF in 6x05--cold, cutting, dismissive--and her dialogue with LF in 6x10: frustrated, entreating, even gentle. She was talking about being rid of LF in 6x05. Quite a different story in 6x10. There is no talk from Sansa of sending LF packing in 6x10, and I expect that was deliberate. She doesn't want to get rid of him anymore, and she believes at the very least he can be useful to her.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[shortpplfedup]

I've been thinking quite a bit about why Sam's little aside/interlude was part of the final episode. In an episode that appeared to cut the cast of characters down to those who look most likely to play a part in the endgame, why Sam and the Citadel? Of course, the Maesters have knowledge of the realm and its history that no one else does, Sam might just be our entry point character to that, but I think it's a bit more. After all, the Small Council must include the Grand Maester to the King (or Queen). This whole story is about unlikely people being elevated to command or high position...why not Sam as Grand Maester?

[Minneapple]

27 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Where does this assumption come from that Daenerys and Jon will marry?

I think people are figuring that they'll meet and fall in love or lust. 

I don't think Sansa will go back to being influenced by Littlefinger but I think she will try to outwit him in some way. She'll play the game with him and then hopefully will kill him because I think Littlefinger is a slimy creep.

45 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Given how much the show relied this season on characters being assumed to have swapped backstories offscreen (e.g., the Jon/Sansa reunion in 604), I've wondered whether the reason we actually saw Brienne talk about that was to make explicit that Sansa didn't hear about the Hound (why, I have no idea), which might otherwise be assumed to have happened.  Or it was just a nice character moment to show Sansa smiling when hearing the news -- if so, I appreciate it, though the show doesn't invest a lot of time in such moments (Jon hasn't so much as said Arya's name since they parted ways in 102).

It's pretty hilarious that they skipped over Jon telling Sansa that he DIED and CAME BACK TO LIFE and Sansa telling Jon about everything that's happened to her including being raped by Ramsey Bolton. "OH, BTW, THEON WAS THERE TOO. HE PRETENDED TO KILL BRAN AND RICKON BUT IT WASN'T REALLY THEM." So it makes one appreciate Sansa's little smile upon hearing about Arya even more -- one of those rare character moments in the show. Sansa and Jon reminiscing about Old Nan's meat pies could go in that category too. Even though they weren't BFFs when growing up, they are still bound together by the shared experiences of their childhood.

As for Sophie, she's improved by leaps and bounds since season 1. I think she's a promising young actress who has a lot of chemistry with pretty much everyone she shares a scene with, and I really wish the Golden Globes would take note -- they love her kind. I realize that the possibility of that is almost zero, though.

[SeanC]

39 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This overlooks the fact that TV Sansa and Book Sansa already know that Littlefinger is bad news and they are both still inclined to listen to him and follow his advice. TV Sansa calls LF's vision not a joke or a pathetic fantasy, but a "pretty picture." Book Sansa thinks admiringly that nothing frightens LF and wishes that he were around to tell her what to do. The only terrible truth that the Hound could hit her with is LF betraying Ned, but would that sway her when none of the other shady shit has done, including things he has done to harm her directly (helping frame her for regicide, selling her to the Boltons in the show), has sufficed to see him wholly in a negative light? Chances are she would just rationalize it away the way she has with all the other horrible things she knows for a fact he has done.

I would think that being the man responsible for her father's downfall would, yes, be qualitatively different from everything else.  That's why both media have made a point of keeping such knowledge away from her (the plausibility of which has been debated, but whatever; KL court gossip works however GRRM wants it to).  Book!Sansa is certainly aware that he's dangerous, but given her lack of other options and the way that the things she clearly knows about can be framed as also protecting her (getting her out of KL, saving her from Lysa, etc.), it's not really the same.  Also, the Hound's presence would be significant because it would supply something that she conspicuously lacks in the Vale, somebody whose support she'd really be sure of (she thinks about him rather a lot).  Littlefinger's biggest asset in the Vale is that it's easy to convince her to stick with him against a bunch of people she knows little to nothing about, however nice some of them seem (and his own dangerous reputation is sort of an implicit threat too; Sansa doesn't imagine herself capable of doing anything about him, she thinks Baelish is basically invincible).

Like I said, the show has really muddled this up in a bunch of ways, between throwing things like the Ramsay marriage which aren't likely to have any counterpart in the books, to giving her more reliable people to interact with repeatedly.

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As for Sansa talking repeatedly about how she "wants to be rid of him," I think 6x10 tells quite a different story.

I wasn't speaking of any specific episode.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SeanC

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, shortpplfedup said:

I've been thinking quite a bit about why Sam's little aside/interlude was part of the final episode. In an episode that appeared to cut the cast of characters down to those who look most likely to play a part in the endgame, why Sam and the Citadel? 

The point of that scene was just to conclude Sam's little traveling-to-the-Citadel arc this season (it's funny, after most of us assumed the show wanted to cut out Sam's season of travels, they ended up doing it anyway, just mostly offscreen).  It sets up next season, where we'll finally (one hopes) learn what the point of this plot is (the fact that it was included in the show would flag that it's of some importance to the endgame, even if I doubt the show is doing anything with the "maester conspiracy" plot from the books).  After GRRM released that Alayne chapter last year, Sam fans are now the only ones waiting for some news on their fave since 2005.  Even if TWOW arrives in early 2017, that'll have been, what, almost twelve years of waiting?

Sam as Grand Maester is certainly possible, if that organization is still around at the end.  Or he may just be a learned counselor.

[FemmyV]

22 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Where does this assumption come from that Daenerys and Jon will marry?

Not an assumption, but recognition of a possibility.

Dany needs allies.

Jon holds the North.

It's claimed the North is non-invadable.

But Jon has ice zombies and needs help.

Dany has dragons.

 

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I don't think there is any dispute that Sansa has considerable subtext with Sandor in the books, and far, far more than she has with Jon. Sandor is still alive in the show--and headed north to boot, it seems--so it seems premature to claim that Sansa is likely going to marry Jon based on Season 6 when Sansa could very well see Sandor again in Season 7. 

And then you have that troubling moment when Brienne was telling Sansa how she found Arya with "a man," as opposed to the infamous Sandor Clegane.

Edited July 5, 2016 by FemmyV

[jjjmoss]

Well, 23 of 27 cast members were in the finale. The missing ones are each around no other cast members, so Sam and Gilly being around wasn't exactly surprising to me.

[OhOkayWhat]

Maybe I am wrong, but if we are talking about Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger and Sandor-Sansa storylines in season 7 I think:

a) The chances of Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline screentime are inversely proportional to the chances of Sandor-Sansa storyline screentime.

b) Both storylines cannot run parallel.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe I am wrong, but if we are talking about Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger and Sandor-Sansa storylines in season 7 I think:

a) The chances of Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger storyline screentime are inversely proportional to the chances of Sandor-Sansa storyline screentime.

b) Both storylines cannot run parallel.

I don't expect it will run parallel.  The Hound's arrival will most likely precipitate the climax of the arc.  They'll find something else for him to do until then.

I'd speculate that the Hound will probably run into Arya, and it's also probable that Brienne will be involved, since this season ended with her still in the Riverlands.  They'll get the latest news about Sansa from her.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

44 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't expect it will run parallel.  The Hound's arrival will most likely precipitate the climax of the arc.  They'll find something else for him to do until then.

I think the argument that any information that the Hound would have about Ned--and what does he know, really, other than LF pulling a knife on Ned? He wasn't privy to Ned and LF's arrangement--would have this enormous impact on Sansa's views on LF is an extremely tenuous one. The Hound telling Sansa LF is a traitorous, untrustworthy, dangerous scumbag wouldn't change anything. She already knows that he's a traitorous, untrustworthy, dangerous scumbag and for her own reasons at this juncture--mostly seeing that she needs people in her corner not beholden to Jon--she doesn't care.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think the argument that any information that the Hound would have about Ned--and what does he know, really, other than LF pulling a knife on Ned? He wasn't privy to Ned and LF's arrangement--would have this enormous impact on Sansa's views on LF is an extremely tenuous one.

Marching into the throne room alongside him and then surprising him to pull a knife is rather damning, in and of itself.  Further, Littlefinger's role in betraying Ned was not a secret amongst the Lannisters, as far as we know, so it's quite possible he was privy, before or after, to much more detail.

[jjjmoss]

So Podeswa is doing the first 2 eps next season again. Given my opinion of his episodes, I expect unexciting things from them. I remember D&D claiming there weren't any 'small' episodes S6 cuz all of them were Event packed, but that was a lie. 

http://www.indiewire.com/2016/07/game-of-thrones-jeremy-podeswa-director-emmy-video-1201702115/

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, SeanC said:

 

I don't expect it will run parallel.  The Hound's arrival will most likely precipitate the climax of the arc.  They'll find something else for him to do until then.

I'd speculate that the Hound will probably run into Arya, and it's also probable that Brienne will be involved, since this season ended with her still in the Riverlands.  They'll get the latest news about Sansa from her.

 

I agree, and to clarify: I meant that one storyline will start while the other ends, and I think the whole Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger will run almost all the episodes of next season (a short season), therefore there will be only few minutes for Sandor-Sansa scenes, and if they want a romantic storyline about them both (something I doubt they want) then there is a very little window of time to work on that. In other words, it seems it is too late if that happens.

Edited July 5, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

Just now, OhOkayWhat said:

I agree, and to clarify: I meant that one storyline will start while the other ends, and I think the whole Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger will run almost all the episodes of next season (a short season), therefore there will be only few minutes for Sandor-Sansa scenes, and if they want a romantic storyline about them both (something I doubt they want) then there is a very little window of time to work on that. In other words, it seems it is too late if that happens.

If SanSan is happening on the show (up in the air), unless they're just going to go fully half-assed and have Sansa declare she's been madly in love with him this whole time, it will almost certainly have to be a "finding love during the end of the world" sort of thing during the final season.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Eyes High said:

I think the argument that any information that the Hound would have about Ned--and what does he know, really, other than LF pulling a knife on Ned? He wasn't privy to Ned and LF's arrangement--would have this enormous impact on Sansa's views on LF is an extremely tenuous one. The Hound telling Sansa LF is a traitorous, untrustworthy, dangerous scumbag wouldn't change anything. She already knows that he's a traitorous, untrustworthy, dangerous scumbag and for her own reasons at this juncture--mostly seeing that she needs people in her corner not beholden to Jon--she doesn't care.

-That is assuming it will be Sansa-Petyr vs. Jon. But if it is Jon-Sansa-Petyr with her soul in the middle of that fight, as some people think it will be, then Sansa decision will be at the very edge between the two sides the whole season. An info like that one, could be the thing that makes the whole plot come to an end. I wish it was Sansa alone without that info who decided she should reject Petyr, and maybe it will be like that. In any case, the narrative needs that Sandor does NOT arrive too soon Winterfell.

-We should not assume that Sandor will tell that info to Sansa alone. If anything, I suspect he does not have patience for intrigues and machinations, and it is possible he will tell Sansa while Jon is in the same room. And even if that does not happen, we should not forget Arya, the person Sandor cares more about in the show. If they arrive together, and he sees Littlefinger, he will tell her the same info and Arya will tell Jon if Sansa does not. And I think Sansa will tell Jon.

Edited July 5, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Marching into the throne room alongside him and then surprising him to pull a knife is rather damning, in and of itself.  Further, Littlefinger's role in betraying Ned was not a secret amongst the Lannisters, as far as we know, so it's quite possible he was privy, before or after, to much more detail.

You're assuming that the Hound was paying particular attention to what LF was doing to Ned in that moment as opposed to focusing on cutting down the others and protecting Joffrey. You're also assuming that the Hound was aware of LF's machinations due to the Lannisters saying something while in his presence, or gossip from the Lannisters about LF's deal withe Ned trickling down to him. These are pretty big assumptions. There is nothing in the text to support the suggestion that the Hound has any idea that LF betrayed Ned. If he did know that, it seems likely he would have thrown it in Sansa's face in ACOK for being as gullible and naive as her father was.

If Sansa's arc is about her growth as a political player as many have claimed (although I am not convinced, given her poor showing in the show and the books to date on that score), it would be completely absurd for the arc to culminate with her needing the assistance and guidance of a non-player to "realize" information about LF's character and trustworthiness she already knows. Sansa needing to be "rescued" from LF's nefarious influence by the Hound's clear sight and straight talk is hardly a story of empowerment and agency. It also overlooks the fact that Sansa knows very well in both mediums that LF is bad news and doesn't care, albeit for different reasons.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, SeanC said:

If SanSan is happening on the show (up in the air), unless they're just going to go fully half-assed and have Sansa declare she's been madly in love with him this whole time, it will almost certainly have to be a "finding love during the end of the world" sort of thing during the final season.

I think they never intended Sansan happening in the show. They needed to develop Sansa and Sandor NOT as Sansan, but as separate entities, and they accomplished what they wanted with their scenes together: she developed the whole "fairy tales are not real" angle and he began his "from killer to protector" journey too. Once they got that and Sandor needed more development, they found that increasing the importance of Arya-Sandor relationship did the job while avoiding the age problem, because it is not a romantic relationship. It also provided Arya character of someone who could be her confidant about the darkness problem growing inside her (by the way, I think it is possible it will be part of her storyline next season).

Edited July 6, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If SanSan is happening on the show (up in the air), unless they're just going to go fully half-assed and have Sansa declare she's been madly in love with him this whole time, it will almost certainly have to be a "finding love during the end of the world" sort of thing during the final season.

It depends on how quickly Sandor gets north. Everyone seems to be covering a lot of ground in the show these days.

Based on what they did with Jaime and Brienne, I could see Sandor and Sansa exchanging a few charged looks and a loaded conversation hinting at deeper feeling in a single episode and have all the Inside the Episode talking heads segments be all about how in love the characters are. If Sansa upon seeing Sandor again gratefully falls into his arms and passionately declares that she's loved him this whole time, though, I will laugh and laugh and laugh.

17 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think they never intended Sansan happening in the show.

I doubt that, since they would have had no idea about SanSan being endgame before the big powwow with GRRM in 2013 unless Sandor and Sansa are the endgame king and queen (whom they've known about since the beginning). I think they hedged their bets by trying to do a rough adaptation of Book SanSan in Season 2. If they planned to write out SanSan altogether from the get-go, they never would have written and filmed that deleted serpentine steps scene (where Sandor confronts Sansa on the steps). The writers definitely did try to do something with Book SanSan in Season 2. The writers did so, I think, because I imagine they had no idea at the time how important the ship would be in books beyond ADWD (or not) and they decided to hedge their bets.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

36 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

-We should not assume that Sandor will tell that info to Sansa alone. If anything, I suspect he does not have patience for intrigues and machinations, and it is possible he will tell Sansa while Jon is in the same room. And even if that does not happen, we should not forget Arya, the person Sandor cares more about in the show. If they arrive together, and he sees Littlefinger, he will tell her the same info and Arya will tell Jon if Sansa does not. And I think Sansa will tell Jon.

That's certainly possible, though it's hard to figure how it plays out in comparison since we don't know how merging Sansa's plot into the Northern plot has affected it.  Maybe it will happen in the North in the books anyway, and by that point the characters will be in a roughly similar configuration.  If, however, it was meant to be separate, seeing as it would be a pivotal moment in Sansa's story, having him reveal it to other characters as well would mess that up.

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

You're assuming that the Hound was paying particular attention to what LF was doing to Ned in that moment as opposed to focusing on cutting down the others and protecting Joffrey. You're also assuming that the Hound was aware of LF's machinations due to the Lannisters saying something while in his presence. These are pretty big assumptions. There is nothing in the text to support the suggestion that the Hound has any idea that LF betrayed Ned. If he did know that, it seems likely he would have thrown it in Sansa's face in ACOK for being as gullible and naive as her father was.

If Sansa's arc is about her growth as a political player as many have claimed (although I am not convinced, given her poor showing in the show to date), it would be completely absurd for the arc to culminate with her needing the assistance and guidance of a non-player to "realize" information about LF's character and trustworthiness she already knows. Sansa needing to be "rescued" from LF's nefarious influence by the Hound's clear sight and straight talk is hardly a story of empowerment and agency. It also overlooks the fact that Sansa knows very well in both mediums that LF is bad news and doesn't care, albeit for different reasons.

I don't think he needed to pay particular attention to Ned initially.  Littlefinger put his dagger to Ned's throat.  The camera cuts away at that point, but we can be reasonably sure Littlefinger didn't remove that dagger until Ned was disarmed and taken by guards.  It's not unreasonable the Hound was aware of that.  And as to the rest, I'm not assuming it, merely saying it's possible.  The leadup and the dagger to the throat, to my mind, would be enough.

That Sansa's supposed to be growing as a player is really not speculative at this point, to my mind.  The writers are doing a bad job of depicting it, but they and everybody else involved with the show have said that's what's happening over and over (Isaac Hempstead Wright recently called Sansa "a superb diplomat", which, if we're supposed to have taken that away from Season 6, that's more dubious writing), and when you see all these shots of her framed with triumphal music, etc., we're clearly meant to view this as Sansa's big play, even though if you look at the details she didn't really do anything that impressive (much the same could be said for Jon's arc this season, which consisted mainly of being really grumpy, botching the Battle of the Bastards spectacularly, and then getting crowned king because everybody thought he was so impressive for some reason).

As far as how this relates to Sansa's arc, I've thought about that issue in the past as well.  We don't really know how all the details play out; Sansa learning about Littlefinger's betrayal of her dad may be the tipping point rather than provoking a complete about-face, and even once she's done that, there'd still be the actual process of taking him down, which would be a further time for her to really show all that she's learned.  I'd also note, it's not like GRRM has not used similar sorts of devices to propel characters out of particular states.  For instance, we follow Theon through ADWD as he starts to come out of his Reek state a bit and develops protective feelings for Jeyne Poole, but unlike in the show, he doesn't decide to rescue Jeyne wholly on his own -- Mance and the spearwives dragoon him into it.  But he then runs with this (literally) and rescues her.  

There's also a bunch of debated symbolism in the books about the Hound as a replacement for Lady, in an allegorical sense, and Sansa thinking about, e.g., how Lady could always smell a lie.  If this theory is true, it's kind of the fulfillment of that, similar to how a lot of people think that, for instance, Arya's connection to Nymeria is a big part of what will bring her back from her current No One state (clearly not in the show, but the direwolves don't matter worth a damn in the show).

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Eyes High said:

You're assuming that the Hound was paying particular attention to what LF was doing to Ned in that moment as opposed to focusing on cutting down the others and protecting Joffrey. You're also assuming that the Hound was aware of LF's machinations due to the Lannisters saying something while in his presence. These are pretty big assumptions. There is nothing in the text to support the suggestion that the Hound has any idea that LF betrayed Ned. If he did know that, it seems likely he would have thrown it in Sansa's face in ACOK for being as gullible and naive as her father was.

If Sansa's arc is about her growth as a political player as many have claimed (although I am not convinced, given her poor showing in the show to date), it would be completely absurd for the arc to culminate with her needing the assistance and guidance of a non-player to "realize" information about LF's character and trustworthiness she already knows. Sansa needing to be "rescued" from LF's nefarious influence by the Hound's clear sight and straight talk is hardly a story of empowerment and agency. It also overlooks the fact that Sansa knows very well in both mediums that LF is bad news and doesn't care, albeit for different reasons.

And yet they created a very memetic scene with Petyr betraying Ned. Include that in the "Previously" minutes before the Sandor arriving episode and you have the job half done with the average audience.

Agree that Sansa should NOT need Sandor to take her decision and as I said "maybe it will be like that. In any case, the narrative needs that Sandor does NOT arrive too soon Winterfell."

Just now, Eyes High said:

It depends on how quickly Sandor gets north. Everyone seems to be covering a lot of ground in the show these days.

Based on what they did with Jaime and Brienne, I could see Sandor and Sansa exchanging a few charged looks and a loaded conversation hinting at deeper feeling in a single episode and have all the Inside the Episode talking heads segments be all about how in love the characters are. If Sansa upon seeing Sandor again gratefully falls into his arms and passionately declares that she's loved him this whole time, though, I will laugh and laugh and laugh.

I doubt that, since they would have had no idea about SanSan being endgame before the big powwow with GRRM in 2013 unless Sandor and Sansa are the endgame king and queen (whom they've known about since the beginning). I think they hedged their bets by trying to do a rough adaptation of Book SanSan in Season 2. If they planned to write out SanSan altogether from the get-go, they never would have written and filmed that deleted serpentine steps scene (where Sandor confronts Sansa on the steps). The writers definitely did try to do something with Book SanSan in Season 2. The writers did so, I think, because I imagine they had no idea at the time how important the ship would be in books beyond ADWD (or not) and they decided to hedge their bets.

But even with Jaime-Brienne they included the longing sigh at the Tarth island in season 5. They were together in season 4 and they reunited in season 6, in the middle, a "bridge" scene about them. Same with Sandor and Arya. They were together in season 4 and there is a "bridge" scene in season 5 about them and other one in season 6 (maybe two). We have not the same thing with Sandor and Sansa. The question is (if they are endgame in the show) why?

Also we do not know if they knew it or not. And the explanation for their scenes is that they needed to develop Sansa and Sandor with her "fairy tales are not real" angle and his "from killer to protector Phase 1" journey. The deleted scene, if I am not wrong, is the one that ends with Tyrion arriving to "protect" Sansa? If that is the scene, then maybe they wanted to show the different ways Tyrion and Sandor behave around Sansa and nothing else and maybe they deleted the scene because they already had other ways to show the audience what they needed.

By the way, I admit they showed Sandor having an infatuation with Sansa, but that is not new with the grown up males around her: Littlefinger, Tyrion and Sandor. Sansa, in the other hand, never behaved in a way the average audience thinks she is attracted to Sandor.

Edited July 6, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

One point that hasn't been touched on yet in this thread, I don't think: Tyrion's talk with Dany was strongly reminiscent of Theon with Robb in Season 1. Tyrion and Theon ask Dany and Robb respectively about whether they're afraid and affirm that their fear is good ("Because it means you're not stupid," as Theon says). Later, in the first KITN scene, Theon swears his loyalty to Robb and asks him whether Theon is Robb's brother "now and always," just as Tyrion tells Dany she has his counsel "now and always." Aaaaaaand we all know how durable Theon's loyalty proved. I the repetitive language mere laziness on the part of the writers, or a deliberate callback?

41 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There's also a bunch of debated symbolism in the books about the Hound as a replacement for Lady, in an allegorical sense, and Sansa thinking about, e.g., how Lady could always smell a lie.  If this theory is true, it's kind of the fulfillment of that, similar to how a lot of people think that, for instance, Arya's connection to Nymeria is a big part of what will bring her back from her current No One state (clearly not in the show, but the direwolves don't matter worth a damn in the show).

Sansa has always had a casual relationship with the truth. Her second-biggest moment in AGOT involves a lie (about Arya and Joffrey). She is thoroughly versed in ladylike courtesies (i.e. the fine art of polite white lies) and even comes to see "courtesy," i.e. lying, as a sort of protective armour. As early as ASOS we know that "lying [comes] easily to Sansa now." In AFFC, it seems that Book Sansa has come to appreciate the value of lies under LF's tutelage (she thinks about how LF told her that there's no harm in a lie if it's kindly meant, and she applies this knowledge). Sansa thinks in AFFC that she's told the lie about Marillion so many times that she believes it's true. Heck, even her big romantic memory in ASOIAF--the Hound kissing her--is a lie. That doesn't really point to the scales ever falling from Sansa's eyes; Sansa's thing is repeating a lie so many times she believes it. She's gotten pretty good at it, too.

The comparison with Nymeria is a pretty damning one, actually, since Nymeria is alive and Lady is not, and since Lady's death is specifically linked with Sansa's letter in AGOT, where Robb rhetorically asks how Sansa could write such a bullshit letter and Bran answers "She lost her wolf."

33 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But even with Jaime-Brienne they included the longing sigh at the Tarth island in season 5. They were together in season 4 and they reunited in season 6, in the middle, a "bridge" scene about them. Same with Sandor and Arya. They were together in season 4 and there is a "bridge" scene in season 5 about them and other one in season 6 (maybe two). We have not the same thing with Sandor and Sansa. The question is (if they are endgame in the show) why?

The writers are too careless for me to attribute the omission of SanSan references during their separation to anything other than expediency. The writers have many times dropped themes and arcs for a long time only to resume them when expedient. Continuity is not big with them. I'm therefore hesitant to write off SanSan on the basis of few references during their separation. Also, there was one moment with SanSan, just as there was one moment with Jaime/Brienne; Sandor lamenting in 4x10 that he should have had sex with Sansa so that he would have at least one happy memory.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[Skeeter22]

I can't imagine D&D would have cast Rory McCann if they ever intended to portray a romance between Sansa and Sandor. It isn't like Littlefinger, where the "romance" aspect of their relationship is meant to be unsettling. 

I do think Sansa and the Hound will be reunited eventually. There were too many references to Sansa's place on Cersei's kill list for that not to pay off. The Hound appears to be headed North, and I will be shocked if Cersei doesn't send the Mountain after Sansa once she hears the news that the Starks have taken the North back. 

[Audreythe2nd]

They've framed Jaime and Brienne as a romance (moreso even than in the books), while they've eliminated SanSan romantic references, but have still kept hints of a connection to each other. My guess is simply that wherever the story is going with Jaime and Brienne, the romance is an integral part of that (marriage maybe?) whereas with Sansa and Sandor, the romance isn't necessary, but just the general connection is. He might tell her the truth about Littlefinger, save her from the Mountain, and then die for all we know. Those are the types of events that could be framed romantically in the books, but aren't required to be romantic at all.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[Colorful Mess]

Yeah, the show runners have a bad track record of developing convincing romances. But I'm not convinced GRRM has done that well either.  I think sometimes the "romantic" moments are blurred by obsession and fetishization, especially between Sandor and Sansa. He enters her room drunk, and threatens to kill her with a knife? Uh, what? Do you really think TV audiences would find that "romantic"? Sansa is sexualized right away, at age 11 - (or, before her period in the show universe). I dont care about "medieval age norms," what she's been through is creepy and traumatic for someone so young. If they ignore their relationship for Sansa's endgame, I'm 100% on board with that.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[SeanC]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

One point that hasn't been touched on yet in this thread, I don't think: Tyrion's talk with Dany was strongly reminiscent of Theon with Robb in Season 1. Tyrion and Theon ask Dany and Robb respectively about whether they're afraid and affirm that their fear is good ("Because it means you're not stupid," as Theon says). Later, in the first KITN scene, Theon swears his loyalty to Robb and asks him whether Theon is Robb's brother "now and always," just as Tyrion tells Dany she has his counsel "now and always." Aaaaaaand we all know how durable Theon's loyalty proved. I the repetitive language mere laziness on the part of the writers, or a deliberate callback?

If nothing else, with whom could Tyrion conceivably be disloyal to Dany, at this point?

Quote

The comparison with Nymeria is a pretty damning one, actually, since Nymeria is alive and Lady is not, and since Lady's death is specifically linked with Sansa's letter in AGOT, where Robb rhetorically asks how Sansa could write such a bullshit letter and Bran answers "She lost her wolf."

As I said, there's rather a lot of potential symbolism relating the Hound as a substitute.  Truth and fiction is one of the recurring discussion points in their book interactions.

25 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

I do think Sansa and the Hound will be reunited eventually. There were too many references to Sansa's place on Cersei's kill list for that not to pay off. The Hound appears to be headed North, and I will be shocked if Cersei doesn't send the Mountain after Sansa once she hears the news that the Starks have taken the North back. 

I've wondered about that, but I kind of struggle to see how that would play out. Cersei herself said this season that the Mountain on his own couldn't be sent to deal with the Sparrows.  Zombie Gregor is a bad, bad dude, but he's ultimately just one dude.  If you've got a nice castle wall, or a horse, it seems like you should be fine.  There's a reason so much speculation around that character related to trial by combat, since that's a defined scenario where one-on-one fighting occurs without larger interference.

Edited July 6, 2016 by SeanC

[SimoneS]

Another thing, if Daenerys marries Jon, she will end the legitimate continuation of her Targaryen line. I don't care how "in love" she is, Daenerys would never to something so self-destructive.

I see Sansa stringing Littlefinger along to find out his schemes and then killing him or having him killed. I don't care what so called influence Littlefinger has, in the end Sansa is a Stark and she will choose her family over him.

The one good thing about Cersei on the throne is that the far-fetched talk of Littlefinger on the Iron Throne has died down.

Edited July 7, 2016 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Eyes High said:

The writers are too careless for me to attribute the omission of SanSan references during their separation to anything other than expediency. The writers have many times dropped themes and arcs for a long time only to resume them when expedient. Continuity is not big with them. I'm therefore hesitant to write off SanSan on the basis of few references during their separation. Also, there was one moment with SanSan, just as there was one moment with Jaime/Brienne; Sandor lamenting in 4x10 that he should have had sex with Sansa so that he would have at least one happy memory.

And yet they cared enough to include two or three Arya-Sandor references while they were apart. If Sansan is endgame why not include one about them?

In 4x10, for the average audience, is possible they took what he said like the truth: that he wanted to rape her. Also, the director talking about that scene, said that the Hound loves Arya . He also said  that the awful words that he says (including the things he said about Sansa) are his way to tell Arya he loves her and he wants her to kill him. So, even that Sandor-Sansa reference is more related to Arya than her older sister.

Edited July 6, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[paigow]

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I expect to see Euron attack Dany's armada...

Before or after he offers his giant cock to her??? Dude already knows that dragons can roast his fleet...is he that dumb?

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

I can't imagine D&D would have cast Rory McCann if they ever intended to portray a romance between Sansa and Sandor. It isn't like Littlefinger, where the "romance" aspect of their relationship is meant to be unsettling. 

I do think Sansa and the Hound will be reunited eventually. There were too many references to Sansa's place on Cersei's kill list for that not to pay off. The Hound appears to be headed North, and I will be shocked if Cersei doesn't send the Mountain after Sansa once she hears the news that the Starks have taken the North back. 

 

If they had no idea whether SanSan would be endgame when they cast Sandor, since they hadn't had their big 2013 powwow with GRRM yet, I don't think that we can read anything into their decision to cast Rory McCann.

It does seem likely that Cersei will try to off Sansa in Season 7. To the extent that anything can be read into it (since the writers are sloppy with such things), we got two reminders in Season 6 that Cersei hates Sansa: "Cersei" swearing vengeance against "Sansa the whore" and Jaime stating straight up that Cersei wants Sansa dead. Whether she uses Ser Gregor to do it is anyone's guess.

29 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If nothing else, with whom could Tyrion conceivably be disloyal to Dany, at this point?

Jaime, maybe.

Quote

Sansa's track record so far hasn't exactly been stellar.

I think Sansa desperately wants to see herself as a loving, trusting Stark loyalist, but actions, as they say, speak louder than words.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa's way of talking is really grating, but that's all on Sophie Turner's limits as an actress, I think.

I agree that the poor acting plays a part in the incoherent characterization of Sansa this season. And this becomes even more evident when one watches the behind the scenes interviews with the writers and actors and realizes that those scenes were supposed to convey something else.

And that sucks because this is the first time that Sophie Turner has been given something meaty to do other than cry and be sad. And I don't think she did a good job. Previously, she had actors like Dinklage, Headey, Dormer and Alfie to play off against. Here it's just Harington, and she fails to bring any nuance or brilliance to the character. Maisie Williams can do wonders acting against extras.

There's just so much debate about Sansa's actions this season because her actions have been undecipherable. But I will also put a lot of the blame on the writing. Take this scene for example:

Quote

Davos: 2,000 Wildlings. 200 Hornwoods, 143 Mazins
Sansa (sarcastically): 62 Mormonts.

Davos: It’s not what we’d hoped for. But we still have a chance if we’re careful and smart.  (DAVOS spots two men fighting.) For fuck’s sake. (DAVOS hurries over to the men. JON SNOW and SANSA watch him go and then continue walking.) 

Sansa: So he’s your most trusted advisor now? Because he secured 62 men from a ten year old?

Ugh, Sansa just shut up! That's just being unpleasant and unhelpful.

And then I listen to written and spoken interviews and according to the writers and  Sophie Turner, Sansa is being right about admonishing Jon for listening to Davos. As SeanC mentioned above, they were going for Sansa Stark, super diplomat and ace player of the game (secretly writing letters and all, atta girl!) but what came across was whiny younger sibling who lied to Jon about something very important for some unknown reason. And in order to give Sansa that arc of empowerment, they completely destroyed Jon's. The guy, who in the books plans Stannis' entire Northern military campaign and has a forceful stubbornness to him, just stands around looking grumpy while Davos and Sansa do the talking. There was no character development for him. He has learned nothing after the betrayal by his NW brothers. He is still the same Jon Snow. The 'Sansa in the North plot' has made a mess of both characters.

Hopefully in the next book (If we ever get it) we get Jon's story without the Sansa baggage and Sansa doing her own thing in the Vale with LF.

Edited July 6, 2016 by anamika

[Amtosbm]

Quote

I can't imagine D&D would have cast Rory McCann if they ever intended to portray a romance between Sansa and Sandor. It isn't like Littlefinger, where the "romance" aspect of their relationship is meant to be unsettling. 

This may be complete BS and I honestly hope it is not true, but years ago on another message board someone posted that the Sandor/Sansa storyline was changed up somewhat by the writers because of some unpleasantness that happened between Rory and Sophie. Its probably all lies cause I have never heard anything bad said about him.

As for who ends up with who I have no idea. All I know is that Val must not be that important in the books because if she was they would have been all over casting a hot blonde. At this point I am wonder if Jon just dies again after the big battle.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Amtosbm

[CofCinci]

Sansa and Sandor are endgame, if D&D follow GRRM's plan. These two were mapped to be together from day after George realized it's gross to put Jon and Sansa together. Hell, Lady is even killed the same chapter the Hound is introduced.  The Hounds reunion with Sansa and/or Arya is one scene I look forward to the most next season.

"A direwolf is no pet. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

Everything written in the first book mirrors the end of their stories. 

[Funzlerks]

If there is one thing that is more gross to me than Jon and Sansa romantically involved (other than Arya and Jon) it is Sansa with Sandor Cleghane.  First, what would she see in him?  That one time when he didn't rape her when he wanted to?  He seems, still, mainly interested in splitting people apart, literally.  I read the early books quite before being exposed to online discussion and I was shocked that this was even a theory.  I just don't see how anything in her book chapters since leaving Kings Landing nor her completely different TV storyline lead to some inevitable true love for that frequently drunk guy who didn't beat her.  That somewhat offends me that Sansa, after considerable abuse, would end up with someone just because he wasn't a complete monster to her when he could have been.  

Arya seems likely to interact with him, the Brothers, Brienne, and maybe even Mel.  

[BlackberryJam]

2 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

They've framed Jaime and Brienne as a romance (moreso even than in the books), while they've eliminated SanSan romantic references, but have still kept hints of a connection to each other. My guess is simply that wherever the story is going with Jaime and Brienne, the romance is an integral part of that (marriage maybe?) whereas with Sansa and Sandor, the romance isn't necessary, but just the general connection is. He might tell her the truth about Littlefinger, save her from the Mountain, and then die for all we know. Those are the types of events that could be framed romantically in the books, but aren't required to be romantic at all.

Yes yes and a thousand times YES. The slow build romance for this serious is Jaime and Brienne, not SanSan, not Arya/Gendry. It's Jaime and Brienne. 

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Amtosbm said:

This may be complete BS and I honestly hope it is not true, but years ago on another message board someone posted that the Sandor/Sansa storyline was changed up somewhat by the writers because of some unpleasantness that happened between Rory and Sophie. Its probably all lies cause I have never heard anything bad said about him.

As for who ends up with who I have no idea. All I know is that Val must not be that important in the books because if she was they would have been all over casting a hot blonde. At this point I am wonder if Jon just dies again after the big battle.

I doubt the rumour about Rory and Sophie, since if true they would have pulled a Lena/Jerome and written them in separate scenes to the extent the storyline permitted, and the writers still wrote and filmed one-on-one scenes. Nor would they need to write things differently during Sandor and Sansa's separation, since Rory and Sophie wouldn't be filming together in that event anyway.

On the note of potentially assholish GOT actors, though, Hibberd at EW said something recently which implied that some of the GOT cast members he's interviewed were assholes to him. He didn't name names, but I wondered whom he meant. I have a few guesses (Rory isn't one of them, though).

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Sansa and Sandor are endgame, if D&D follow GRRM's plan.

There's likely going to be something there in the books, but stating that SanSan is endgame assumes that 1) Sansa survives (unlikely), 2) Sandor survives (more unlikely..."A hound will die for you" and all that), 3) GRRM will give them a happy ending (very unlikely). Like Jaime/Brienne, Sandor/Sansa has tragic romance written all over it. 

7 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

If there is one thing that is more gross to me than Jon and Sansa romantically involved (other than Arya and Jon) it is Sansa with Sandor Cleghane.  First, what would she see in him?  That one time when he didn't rape her when he wanted to?  He seems, still, mainly interested in splitting people apart, literally.  I read the early books quite before being exposed to online discussion and I was shocked that this was even a theory.  I just don't see how anything in her book chapters since leaving Kings Landing nor her completely different TV storyline lead to some inevitable true love for that frequently drunk guy who didn't beat her.  That somewhat offends me that Sansa, after considerable abuse, would end up with someone just because he wasn't a complete monster to her when he could have been.  

Unfortunately, Sansa has constructed an entire romantic fantasy around the Hound: her increasingly elaborate memory of a kiss that never happened. She thinks of him in pretty much every single one of her chapters. It's gross, yes, but so are most of the canon romances in ASOIAF in one way or another. As for the offensiveness of Sansa having a thing for and possible romance with a dude who came thisclose to raping her and held her at knifepoint, GRRM apparently thinks Dany/Drogo is super romantic despite Drogo having raped Dany several times, so I wouldn't put it past him.

6 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Yes yes and a thousand times YES. The slow build romance for this serious is Jaime and Brienne, not SanSan, not Arya/Gendry. It's Jaime and Brienne. 

In ASOIAF at least, it seems to be both Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa. That doesn't mean either will be "endgame"--Jaime/Brienne shippers at least seem resigned to one or both of them dying before the end of the series--but there is definitely something there for both pairings in the books at least.

Quote

And that sucks because this is the first time that Sophie Turner has been given something meaty to do other than cry and be sad. And I don't think she did a good job. Previously, she had actors like Dinklage, Headey, Dormer and Alfie to play off against.

Agreed. Sophie flounders when she has limited actors as scene partners. That's part of the reason the Sandor/Sansa scenes in Season 2 were such a disaster, I think; it was the blind leading the blind.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

Quote

I do think Sansa and the Hound will be reunited eventually. There were too many references to Sansa's place on Cersei's kill list for that not to pay off. The Hound appears to be headed North, and I will be shocked if Cersei doesn't send the Mountain after Sansa once she hears the news that the Starks have taken the North back. 

This I agree with, which I don't like, because The Hound is honestly right behind Bronn and Arya in terms of characters that are boring as all hell.  However The Hound being present while Sansa finds herself mixed up with the Kings Landing set could make him palatable.   Provided he dies quickly.

Quote

As for Sophie, she's improved by leaps and bounds since season 1. I think she's a promising young actress who has a lot of chemistry with pretty much everyone she shares a scene with

Pretty much every reviewer out there seems to agree with you, many reviews have been siting her storyline with Jon and Ramsay as one of the crown jewels of the season. 

In all honesty it's the latter half of your statement that rings true for me.  Her chemistry with pretty much everyone is why the character drew my interest.   I honestly cannot believe she has me enjoying Jon Snow scenes.  I'm one of the people who would have been perfectly fine with him staying dead.   And while I had heard the theories about Jon/Sansa in the past, I can't believe how that idea has seemed to take root with so many and I don't just mean the world of tumblr.   There are only a few people I expect to see again after GoT comes to an end and this girl is definitely one of them.

I myself always harbored a little dream that the character would wind up with a character that is only in the books, sigh.  But I've seen very plausible and interesting speculations regarding Sansa with Jon and Tyrion.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Yes yes and a thousand times YES. The slow build romance for this serious is Jaime and Brienne, not SanSan, not Arya/Gendry. It's Jaime and Brienne. 

Definitely Jaime and Brienne.

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The guy, who in the books plans Stannis' entire Northern military campaign and has a forceful stubbornness to him, just stands around looking grumpy while Davos and Sansa do the talking. There was no character development for him. He has learned nothing after the betrayal by his NW brothers. He is still the same Jon Snow. The 'Sansa in the North plot' has made a mess of both characters.

Yeah, D&D failed completely when it comes to Jon's characterization this year.  We didn't see him changed by his experiences this year.  They still insist on portraying him as someone who won't verbally stand up for himself and we see none of his knowledge of the North and Northern politics.  Definitely a fail.  It's like they couldn't portray both Jon and Sansa as improving their game and it had to be one or the other.  And they didn't do a good job with Sansa's "game" either.

Truth be told, I wasn't a fan of Jon's "I'm right and I know everything" personality in A Dance with Dragons but at least it was pro-active and he knew a lot of stuff about the North and how to run a military campaign.

Edited July 6, 2016 by benteen

[SeanC]

32 minutes ago, benteen said:

It's like they couldn't portray both Jon and Sansa as improving their game and it had to be one or the other.  And they didn't do a good job with Sansa's "game" either.

The weirdest part is that the season ends with a big triumphal scene as Jon is crowned king.  Unless we're meant to read this as "Jon gets an undeserved promotion because he has a penis", which I'm pretty sure is not the case, the implication is that Jon did some so awesome this season that previously unimpressed fan favourites like Lyanna Mormont find the desire to make him king irresistible.  But what was that, exactly?  He did a decent job making his case to the Wildlings, with some help from Tormund, but I don't know why the Northern lords would know or care about that.  He bombed on the diplomatic circuit, otherwise, and the writers framed the Battle of the Bastards as him falling into Ramsay's trap.  He showed he's a great warrior again (which I guess he now has a rep for, according to Ramsay?  I'm not sure how that happened), but that's about it.

I don't inherently have a problem with the writers replacing Robb's will as a plot device, but if you want Jon to be made king by acclamation, you better have him do something impressive to warrant that.

Edited July 6, 2016 by SeanC

[Audreythe2nd]

I don't think Jaime and Brienne necessarily have "tragic romance" written all over them. We've already had just about all of the tragic romances this story can take (list any romance that hasn't ended tragically so far). It would actually be quite an odd narrative technique to drag a will they/won't they out this long (we're talking Season 2/3 through to Season 7 now) and have nothing but death and tragedy come of it. There has to be some kind of payoff that's not death in this scenario, I think. That's just my opinion, but I could cite book/show evidence that that's the case. They're my two favourite characters, so I've probably paid more attention to the specifics of their chapters and the minutia that can be considered foreshadowing in the show than most have, lol. 

I can see Sandor dying for Sansa though, or for some kind of cause related to her. Since they haven't framed it as a romance in the show, it wouldn't be totally redundant, and would be more about Sandor regaining honour and purpose at the end of his life (or something).

Edited July 6, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

This I agree with, which I don't like, because The Hound is honestly right behind Bronn and Arya in terms of characters that are boring as all hell. 

I was not excited when the Hound was revealed to be alive. I actually sighed.

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, Audreythe2nd said:

I can see Sandor dying for Sansa though, or for some kind of cause related to her. Since they haven't framed it as a romance in the show, it wouldn't be totally redundant, and would be more about Sandor regaining honour and purpose at the end of his life (or something).

I think that's possible, and considering that the last time we saw him he was heading North, where there's an impending zombie invasion, even more so.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

The weirdest part is that the season ends with a big triumphal scene as Jon is crowned king.  Unless we're meant to read this as "Jon gets an undeserved promotion because he has a penis", which I'm pretty sure is not the case, the implication is that Jon did some so awesome this season that previously unimpressed fan favourites like Lyanna Mormont find the desire to make him king irresistible.  But what was that, exactly?  He did a decent job making his case to the Wildlings, with some help from Tormund, but I don't know why the Northern lords would know or care about that.  He bombed on the diplomatic circuit, otherwise, and the writers framed the Battle of the Bastards as him falling into Ramsay's trap.  He showed he's a great warrior again (which I guess he now has a rep for, according to Ramsay?  I'm not sure how that happened), but that's about it.

I don't inherently have a problem with the writers replacing Robb's will as a plot device, but if you want Jon to be made king by acclamation, you better have him do something impressive to warrant that.

Is it odd to say that the North just wants to go back to their old ways? Without bringing in that whole Stark vs non Stark debate, the North was always under Stark leadership, and Manderly opens by saying that he never thought they'd have another king in the North in his lifetime. Maybe they consider the Starks to be the kings in the North even though they haven't been for a few centuries.

I just feel like these people wanna go back to the way things were before everything went to hell, before Ned went South and died, Robb turned things to shit when he broke his oath, and Roose Bolton's treacherous ass became warden in the North and then proceeded to lose control over his psycho son.

The North is very traditional, although that seems to have been completely lost on the TV show. I rolled my eyes everytime "the north remembers" was said, because the North on the TV show forgot and bent the knee, and seemed to accept what had happened. They just seem like a group that needs a leader because that's what they're used to, and they turned to the house that has led them for more than a 1,000 years.

That being said, I have some doubts that Jon will be named KitN in the books (although maybe), but at least there's the Northern Conspiracy where the North is kind of awesome, and badass.