S06.E08: No One

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-06-14 at 1:37 AM, nurse1 said:

.I have to say that although I am disappointed in not seeing the final fight between Arya and the T-Waif 1000 (hee, love  the name) at least my girl Arya won by using both her smarts and the darkness...and I really liked Blackfish and was sad to see him go even if it was off screen.

Brienne and Jamie will always have mad chemistry...and I really enjoy their scenes together. As stated by others Brienne brings out the best in Jamie. But I'm team Tormund! 

I would have to agree with several other people here who have said that BF is likely not really dead. I wish I could find who it was who said this first so that I could give credit to that person because it's a very clever thing to have noticed and that person deserves credit for coming up with that idea.

As far as Brienne and Jamie as well as Arya and her former (almost) BF goes, I don't think this show is the kind of show that will end up with all the former near-misses getting together once again and living out the rest of their lives happily ever after. It would be swell, for sure, but it's just not that kind of show. It is more likely that several of those pairs will wind up getting together once again only for one of them to witness the other being horribly tortured and murdered. I'm really sorry.  But it's just that kind of show.

The one thing I'd really, really like to see is .... Remember when the HS was talking about being killed in the defense of his ideals? He said that he would "relish that". I sure would like to see him get killed and see whether or not he does indeed relish that or whether he cries for his mommy. I would guess that most all of us would cry for mommy if we are ever tortured on the way to death.

[DarkRaichu]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, Jaime's changed as far as using his head more. I doubt two-handed Jaime would have taken the time to think up a strategy using Edmure. But lacking a sword hand has naturally changed his attitude toward brute force. OTOH, he doesn't relish the idea of carrying out his threats the way Cersei does, but I don't think that means he'd never carry out these latest threats if it came to that. Even if he was bluffing, I doubt Brienne would be proud of the way Jaime achieved this relatively bloodless victory. Know who I think would be more proud? Tywin, because Jaime was trading on the Lannister reputation for annihilating entire families (first the Reynes of Castamere, then the remaining Targs in King's Landing, then Ned, Cat, Robb and Talisa, and as far as anyone knows Arya's dead too) even moreso than his own personal history (Edmure only brought up the kingslaying because Jaime said the Red Wedding was a consequence of rebelling against the crown, and it's pretty hypocritical for a kingslayer to lecture anyone on loyalty to the Iron Throne). Jaime finally proving himself as the heir Tywin would want him to be, bluff or not, is character development but I wouldn't say it's development toward being a good person. Being better than Cersei really says more about Cersei's awfulness than about Jaime's decency imho. Edmure didn't drive him to those threats by not being won over by Jaime's attempts at kindness because the poor Kingslayer is just so misunderstood. Distrusting promises from the son of the man who ordered the Red Wedding, who is now working with the Freys who did the murdering at the Red Wedding, and who before all of that killed one of his own in an escape attempt and tried to murder Edmure's nephew (unclear if Robb/Cat filled their fish kin in on that incident but it's likely enough that they did), was probably the smartest instinct Edmure ever had in his wretched life.

This 100%, as I pointed out (and LADY S. explained thoroughly) Jamie is becoming more calculating like Tywin.  Jamie even considered diplomacy first (to Bronn's chagrin) and seriously gave Brienne's plan a chance to work before talking to Edmure.  The 2 handed Jaime would have stormed the castle just to prove he was THE MAN without care of the costs.

Also, the other thing that Tywin would be proud of, Jamie is finally out of King's Guard and ready to embrace his path as the heir of Lannisters name.  Too bad he does not know (yet) how broke the Lannisters truly are :D

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

You mean Kate? Pippa is still single.

I did mean Kate. My point is that royal women are usually still known by their maiden names, even though they take their husband's names. Kate Windsor is still Kate Middleton in conversation. Cersei Lannister, Sansa Stark, Catelyn Tully, Margaery Tyrell are still thought of that way, even though their actual names are probably Cersei Baratheon, Sansa Lannister-Bolton, Catelyn Stark, and Margaery Baratheon.

On a different note, I find it interesting that Cersei didn't wear black for Robert, Joffrey, or Tywin, but she's wearing it for Myrcella.

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I highly doubt Jaimie would have really thrown Edmure's son (provided he exists) over the parapets. Not because I think he's not capable of such an act (we know better) but because it would be pretty useless. How would killing his son make Edmure more willing to do what the Lannisters want of him? And how would that reduce the resolve of the men inside the castle to fight? In both cases he'd achieve the opposite of what he really wants. It was a bluff and one that worked. He used his and his family's god-awful reputation to his advantage. Whether the act of breaking a siege without massive bloodshed can be seen as a sign of redemption is another issue. First and foremost it was the smart thing to do.

This. The Lannister words are "Hear Me Roar." Jaime was roaring--trading on his fearful reputation as an awful person, in order to manipulate Edmure. In reality throwing the kid at the wall would be pointless and stupid and it really wouldn't get him what he wants. In the case of Bran, Jaime didn't just fling him out a window because it was fun. He did it because if he hadn't done it, he was certain that Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen would be executed with extreme prejudice. Ned Stark himself might have made the same choice--a fast death for a child you don't know, to save your entire family. The two scenarios aren't comparable--with Bran Jaime had very little time to think and made a fast decision because it was life or death. With Edmure's son he's got ages to think about it and really just said that because he knew Edmure would believe it.

[DrSpaceman73]

I am still not really sure why Edmure handed over the castle so easily.  It kind of makes sense, but he still seemed to me to give up awful easily. 

 

And the fact that he can just say let me in and hand over the castle, they just do what he says, no questions asked.......I don't know seems so unlike what we see on this show.  We've seen others disobey superiors they obviously don't agree with before, even literally killing them if they don't like what they plan on doing. Seriously why didn't the Blackfish just kill him himself? 

 

Loved Arya cutting the candle though.  Just wish we could have seen the look on the other girl's face when it happened.

I just don't find myself caring as much about the Hound's storyline, seems so afar from the rest right now, I hope they bring him back into one of the other storylines soon

Edited June 15, 2016 by DrSpaceman73

[PatsyandEddie]

If Blackfish had killed Edmure then his son,who is half Frey,would have been Lord of RiverRun with his lovely Grandpa Walder as his "protector". Game over. Edmure's men were loyal to him and probably weren't expecting him to let the Lannisters in. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

If Blackfish had killed Edmure then his son,who is half Frey,would have been Lord of RiverRun with his lovely Grandpa Walder as his "protector". Game over. Edmure's men were loyal to him and probably weren't expecting him to let the Lannisters in. 

Blackfish warned them it was a trap....Edmure would not be released to defend the castle. But the "Captain" was too stupid and lowered the drawbridge.

Edited June 15, 2016 by paigow

[Zanne]

3 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

If Blackfish had killed Edmure then his son,who is half Frey,would have been Lord of RiverRun with his lovely Grandpa Walder as his "protector". Game over. Edmure's men were loyal to him and probably weren't expecting him to let the Lannisters in. 

This is why I don't think Edmure is long for this world. A Frey will kill him off so Edmure's son can become Lord of RiverRun with no one left to contest the seat.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Zanne
Word Choice

[TM2]

Someone mentioned this before and I was thinking the same thing since I just can't comprehend the lazy uncreative way they went about the Arya story. But is it a possibility that the Waif won the fight and is wearing Arya's face? The faceless man could've had the same dialogue with the waif. She was just like Arya waiting to become 'no one' and all this time she wasn't ready either. Now here is she finally no one .Those words could've easily been said to the waif. Maybe she was no one and assumed her new identity with new face and said 'i am arya stark of winterfell'. I understand that Arya could've said that as well since she really is Arya Stark of winterfell but why would the faceless man say she is finally 'no one' to Arya and be proud since she obviously wasn't no one and she went back to who she was all along. She also walked away with no pain or any wounds. The waif didn't have any wounds and would've walked away like that. I'm just grasping here since I just can't accept the horrible way they wrote her story. It could've been so much better. I don't get any of it. Badly written or just more to it. I hope it's the last but since everyone on here is assuming it all went as we've seen it probably was just badly written.

Edited June 15, 2016 by TM2

[Calamity Jane]

On June 14, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Audreythe2nd said:

People need to understand the *why* of this scene. There were interviews about it from the actors/directors today and yesterday.

Yes, Jaime wants to get back to Cersei. But that wasn't what this scene was about. 

The thing that a lot of viewers have missed, for some odd reason, is that Jaime is not in favour of large scale violence. He is (or rather, WAS, which is rather key) capable of doing small acts of violence for selfish means. But since Season 3, when he lost his hand, he hasn't really been about that, and there has been far more evidence of a reasoned, diplomatic Jaime than people have caught on to. This finally came to a head these last two episodes at Riverrun, when he talks to the Blackfish (even before Brienne shows up). He wants to give BF a chance to save his men's lives. The BF stubbornly refuses. Then Brienne shows up and suggests a method as to how SHE can try to resolve this peacefully and Jaime is all for it. But if she fails, she will be on the opposite side to Jaime and they might have to fight each other (which is a horrible thought for both of them). This is key to understanding his motivations in Edmure's scene. Jaime does not want to storm that castle, one reason being he does not want to fight Brienne. And he doesn't want violence at all in any case. And when it looked like Brienne was going to fail, he tried one more tactic (again, the non-violent one)

Hasn't anyone noticed that he played it totally diplomatically at first with Edmure? His first instinct was not to threaten him, but to reason with him. But Edmure really, really lays into him, about his reputation, about what an evil man Jaime is. And this is when the flip was switched - reasoning with Edmure, offering him noble promises was not going to work, because Edmure showed him exactly what he thought of him. So that's what he realized he needed to use - his terrible reputation as an awful human being. So he'd slaughter everyone to get back to his gross incest relationship, including Edmure's whole family, he'd catapult babies, etc. etc. It's irony. He threatened violence for the end of achieving the least violent outcome because he doesn't want the violent solution in the first place (By the by, you notice he told Edmure a blatant lie when he said that he didn't care about anyone who was in that castle? Brienne was in there. Telling.). And understanding that is absolutely KEY to understanding his character.

Now, some may have noticed that Cersei *literally* chooses violence in this episode when Jaime essentially chooses the most peaceful solution he can. That's not an accidental contrast. 

Or don't listen to me; listen to NCW talking about this scene: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/12/game-thrones-jaime-brienne-reunion

Now, at the end of the day, you can still think of Jaime as an unrepentant asshole. That's everyone's right and I think he's meant to be a conflicting character in any case. But I think it's important to understand the motivations and the subtext of what's being written and acted out here, if only so that when the plot turns a certain way down the road, people aren't totally surprised acting like they didn't see that coming. (And no, I don't even think Jaime is going to kill Cersei - I don't think that's what this character development is about; I think it's to show contrast to her. I think his actual plot is going to be much, much more complicated than that).

I've been thinking he will save Bran towards the end to bring things full circle.  

[Luckylyn]

I think the timing of Jaime's threat to Edmure is significant.  He could have done it sooner but he doesn't.  It is not until Brienne arrives and the possibility that he would have to meet her on the battle field occured that Jaime made his move.   He gave Brienne the chance to find a peaceful resolution her way but then took measures to keep from being in a position where he would be forced to harm Brienne.  I do think getting back to Cersai was part of his motivation when threatening Edmure but at this point he believes that the Mountain is Cersai's path out of danger from the Sparrows.  Jaime only escalates things with Edmure when Brienne's presence inside the castle created a crisis for him.

Jaime traded on his horrible reputation to find the least violent resolution to the conflict and avoid a violent confrontation with Brienne.  I can respect a ruthless tacket that avoids blookshed.   It was basically a brains over brawn moment which shows a new side to Jaime.  Still he has a lot to make up for because of what he did to Bran and because of his insistance on following Cersei without consideration of the harm she has caused.  Still his movtivation has a selfish undercurrent because protecting Brienne was the reason he found the least violent solution not necessarily caring about protecting others as a whole from needless violence.  He can be a confusing character capable of horrible and noble actions. 

[DrSpaceman73]

16 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

If Blackfish had killed Edmure then his son,who is half Frey,would have been Lord of RiverRun with his lovely Grandpa Walder as his "protector". Game over. Edmure's men were loyal to him and probably weren't expecting him to let the Lannisters in. 

Whether his son/Walder would have been lord/acting lord or not, they still physically held RiverRun, that fact would not have changed. 

 

And even after they let him in, they just following his orders and let in the Lannisters as well? 

 

Again, just doesn't make much sense to me.  Similar situations in these stories, other men never would just blindly follow orders they clearly don't agree with

[Cynna]

On 2016-06-15 at 8:43 AM, Hecate7 said:

I did mean Kate. My point is that royal women are usually still known by their maiden names, even though they take their husband's names. Kate Windsor is still Kate Middleton in conversation. .

Changing one's last name is becoming less and less common anyways. I know it's still quite common in the US, but in most of Europe and Canada the norm is to keep a maiden name, or hyphenate.
I don't see GOT as being 'back then' as someone else said, but as an alternate universe where in some ways they're further advanced than even our current times, in some ways. ;)

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Cynna said:

Changing one's last name is becoming less and less common anyways. I know it's still quite common in the US, but in most of Europe and Canada the norm is to keep a maiden name, or hyphenate.
I don't see GOT as being 'back then' as someone else said, but as an alternate universe where in some ways they're further advanced than even our current times, in some ways. ;)

It's pretty representative of our own medieval period, really. Mary Tudor was married to Philip of Spain, but historians still refer to her as Mary Tudor. Mary Stuart married first Prince Francois de Valois-Angouleme, but we never think of her by that name because she was abruptly widowed. Later she married Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, and finally James Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell, but we never think of her as Mary Hepburn. She's Mary Stuart, or Mary Queen of Scots. Royals tend to simply be referred to by their House. So, Cersei Lannister, even if she married every man she was ever offered to or slept with, would still be thought of as Cersei Lannister.

There is nothing in this alternate universe that's actually more advanced than our current times, unless the magic is actually technology. It's all pretty consistent with the known European late medieval period.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

It's pretty representative of our own medieval period, really. Mary Tudor was married to Philip of Spain, but historians still refer to her as Mary Tudor. Mary Stuart married first Prince Francois de Valois-Angouleme, but we never think of her by that name because she was abruptly widowed. Later she married Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, and finally James Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell, but we never think of her as Mary Hepburn. She's Mary Stuart, or Mary Queen of Scots. Royals tend to simply be referred to by their House. So, Cersei Lannister, even if she married every man she was ever offered to or slept with, would still be thought of as Cersei Lannister.

The Queens Mary both held their thrones in their own right, though, so they're more comparable to Dany than Cersei. Cersei would be more like Elizabeth Woodville, Margaret d'Anjou, Anne Neville or the six wives of Henry VIII. From what little I've read, history always identifies these royal consorts/dowager queens by their father's family, not their husband's.

23 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

 Still his movtivation has a selfish undercurrent because protecting Brienne was the reason he found the least violent solution not necessarily caring about protecting others as a whole from needless violence.  He can be a confusing character capable of horrible and noble actions. 

Right, Jaime's not suddenly a pacifist, he just needed an easy way out of a situation he never wanted to be in in the first place. Another reason I think his father would be proud, Tywin had his practical side too. Avoiding needless violence just separates the Lannisters from Ramsay Bolton, it's not redemption on its own. Jaime cared about Brienne and I think he even had some respect for the Blackfish as an enemy, but he still needed the Blackfish dead or a prisoner and I don't think he cared how many other people lived or died there. He didn't want to kill all of them, he probably would have taken no joy from it, but there's no real indication he is no longer capable of such. Caring about what Edmure and Brienne thought of him isn't enough either. Tywin called him out on caring what other people thought of him back in their first scene together in s1. A good man shouldn't need Brienne around to make sure he chooses right over wrong, and he shouldn't need to know a person the way he knows Brienne to accept that person has as much right to not be murdered as his own immediate family members. I like Jaime because he's an anti-villain, not quite an anti-hero. Full redemption and joining the light side to live happily ever after with Brienne would be too neat, but I've enjoyed him more in these past two eps than I have in a while.

[Luckylyn]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

 A good man shouldn't need Brienne around to make sure he chooses right over wrong, and he shouldn't need to know a person the way he knows Brienne to accept that person has as much right to not be murdered as his own immediate family members. I like Jaime because he's an anti-villain, not quite an anti-hero.

That's a good point he had to care about Brienne and have some sort of respect for Blackfish to have a motivation to find a nonviolent solution. If the castle had been full of people he only felt indifference for he may have made different choices.  Is Jamie capable of doing the right thing independent of someone like Brienne or Tyrion being there to motivate him?  Cersei does horrible things that harm innocent people frequently for petty reasons, and Jaime never seems disturbed by it.  It's only if she goes after someone he cares for like when she was set on getting Tyrion executed that Jaime goes against her and even then he doesn't hold her actions against her at all.

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Tywin had his practical side too. Avoiding needless violence just separates the Lannisters from Ramsay Bolton

I would put it differently.

I would not say the Lannisters avoid needless violence, since I think they often engage in needless violence (Tywin's response to Catelyn taking Tyrion captive being a prime example).  They simply overestimate the amount of violence that is required. In contrast, Ramsay goes overboard with the violence even when he knows it isn't necessary.

[Audreythe2nd]

Quote

Cersei does horrible things that harm innocent people frequently for petty reasons, and Jaime never seems disturbed by it. 

Explain a recently horrible thing that Cersei has done that we have *evidence* that Jaime has been privvy to that he's just brushed aside? He knows she's untrustworthy in a general sense, but since going after Tyrion at the trial (which yes, Jaime WAS disturbed by, since he, you know helped him escape despite her wishes) we don't have any evidence of specific things that Jaime knows about. Going after the Faith Militant isn't exactly going against innocent people for petty reasons. I don't think in the show Jaime knows how responsible for the whole situation she is (which, if you want to say that defies logic, fine, but I think they've painted Jaime as somewhat in the dark here). The only other thing I can think of is how she wanted Sansa dead (still does), but Jaime does have a problem with that - he sent Brienne to protect her and was going to let her take an army up North to help her! So what else is there? Cersei hasn't actually done anything truly terrible in Jaime's company since he's returned this season. I think to say that Jaime has so blinders on is accurate, but Jaime has NOT been portrayed as a "violence for the sake of violence" sort of person since Season 2 - he hasn't really seen Cersei's true nature more recently to show how it contrasts with his own mindsets.

[Hecate7]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

The Queens Mary both held their thrones in their own right, though, so they're more comparable to Dany than Cersei. Cersei would be more like Elizabeth Woodville, Margaret d'Anjou, Anne Neville or the six wives of Henry VIII. From what little I've read, history always identifies these royal consorts/dowager queens by their father's family, not their husband's.

 

Hence Cersei, Cat, and Lysa still being Lannister and Tully.

Quote

Right, Jaime's not suddenly a pacifist, he just needed an easy way out of a situation he never wanted to be in in the first place. Another reason I think his father would be proud, Tywin had his practical side too. Avoiding needless violence just separates the Lannisters from Ramsay Bolton, it's not redemption on its own. Jaime cared about Brienne and I think he even had some respect for the Blackfish as an enemy, but he still needed the Blackfish dead or a prisoner and I don't think he cared how many other people lived or died there.

Jamie is a complex character. He's always hungered for the approval of people like Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth. I don't think he ever meant to kill or even dungeon up the Blackfish, and he certainly has no intention of ever putting Sansa's head on a pike no matter how much Cersei pushes for it. I have the sneaking suspicion, when he said "good--bring him to me," that he actually intended to put the Blackfish AND some men into Brienne's charge. If Edmure can order his men to hand themselves over to the enemy, Jaime can order those same men to march down to Brienne and follow her orders. Perverse but entirely in keeping with his attitude this episode. I think Brienne half expected to be detained, but she also half expected Jaime to supply her with the Blackfish's army. It seemed to me that he wanted to do more than simply keep his promise to her, and both were disappointed when all he did was keep his word.

[GrailKing]

So is this a goof?

 

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/sansas-letter-to-blackfish

or is it actually for Edmure?

Edited June 18, 2016 by GrailKing

[DollEyes]

Interesting episode. Loved that Arya got the best of both the Waif and Jaquen, who both underestimated her and it backfired on them, and rightfully so. 

Tyrion, Missandei & Grey Worm were comedy gold. Tyrion was funny, but Missandei & Grey Worm held their own, especially GW, whose seeming inability to tell any semblance of a joke was hilarious. However, their letting their guard down almost lead to trouble and if it had been anyone but Khaleesi who showed up, chances are it would have. 

Jamie had disgusted me from the start when he tried to kill Bran-an innocent child- for catching him with Cersei and Jaime's treatment of Edmure, first by holding him captive, then by threatening him then by threatening his baby is his newest low. WTF is up with tyrants on this show threatening babies? First, Ramsey, now Jaime, both for selfish reasons. Why did Jaime bully Edmure, take Riverrun and have Blackfish killed? For Cersei. Jaime & Cersi deserve each other (not a compliment, BTW), which is why I believe the perfect punishment for  them is for one to watch the other die while the other is helpless to stop it. For Jaime & Cersei, one being forced to live without the other is a fate worse than death. Because of his obsession with Cersei, Jaime can't love Brienne. Jaime may have a soft spot for Brienne, but if he had to choose between her and Cersei, he would choose Cersei in a heartbeat, which is why IMO Jaime has never deserved Brienne and he never will. 

Speaking of Cersei, her latest scheme bit her in the ass, as it should have, but when it comes to her vs. the High Sparrow, I say, to paraphrase Shakespeare," a plague on both their houses." 

Edited June 19, 2016 by DollEyes
To add stuff.

[connieinnc]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:23 AM, Hecate7 said:

Quick, what's Pippa Middleton's last name?

Middleton. But I assume you mean Katherine's last name, which I believe is now Windsor?

[Superpole2000]

The Arya plot isn't entertaining at all, but luckily it's been drawn out over two seasons so we can be reminded again and again that the writers have a lot of miss in their hit or miss arsenal.

I thought the joke scene could have been really cute, but the writing fell a little short. I do enjoy those three, Khaleesi, and the dragons though. My interest in the other settings has dwindled considerably. It's almost dragons or bust for me now.

And why do the writers find it compulsory to mention Theon or Varys' missing parts and Tyrion's height in every episode they appear? WE KNOW THESE THINGS ALREADY! I guess they're trying to be funny, but it's just so damn repetitive.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Superpole2000