S04.E13: Persona Non Grata

[chocolatine]

2 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

Right. But I'm actually referring to viewers who've expressed distrust of Gabriel - not characters in the show. And that's surprised me because I've always felt that he plays a humanizing role; one that softens the directives coming from the Centre. In other words, it's the showrunners' way of lending some humanity to the Soviet side of the drama.

I can't speak for other viewers, but to me he's obviously always "handling" P&E - trying to keep them as happy as possible so that they continue doing their work, and there's a manipulative aspect to it. He may have developed a personal fondness for them, but he's always first and foremost their handler.

[scartact]

So. I'm going to miss Arkady if he's really gone. He really did feel like the most moral character of the show to me.

Overall, I think I've mentally split this season into three separate sections. The first ranges from Glanders to Nina's death; the second encompasses Martha's entire story arc and up to the time jump; the last is pretty much the return to Paige's arc and bringing to plot threads set up at the beginning to the forefront (particularly the biological warfare plot and the Young Hee/Don operation). I suppose I'm more aware of the structure of this season since I'm not binge watching it, but it's just interesting to me how it seems the J's and company have done away with sticking very closely to traditional season arc structures. I actually think this season peaked at Travel Agents and David Copperfield, and the last third of the season, rather than being propulsive, has primarily operated to fill out more character growth (as opposed to forward momentum on plot the way the Martha storyline did this season) and set up what may come for the next two seasons.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I’m not sure how I felt about the finale. A lot of it was great, but I think I have to go back and watch it without expectations that I didn’t really know I had but may have been messing with me. For instance, I was really not happy to see Mischa Jr. It just seems completely silly that Irina has yet apparently devoted her life to detonating little bombs in Philip’s every so often. How did she even get to tell her kid he was a travel agent? She saw him for the first time right before she ran away, right? Was she getting updates before that? Does Mischa Jr. know his dad’s an agent too? How does he intend to see him without blowing his cover? I liked the actor (he was on Orphan Black!) but this is such soapy material. Plenty of guys who father children and don’t know about it never see their kids, but Philip’s love child he didn’t even know about is going to travel all the way from Moscow to meet him. I almost want them to go back home just so Mischa Jr. can just miss ‘em. They certainly are nice to him on Philip’s behalf, given his mom seems to be a traitor.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I felt either about the finale (maybe because I was so tuned into how nervous I was for things to potentially escalate) and I did have quite a bit of ambivalence about the Mischa reveal. At first, I was actually quite confused. I think every time we came back to Russia, I kept wondering if Martha would somehow make an appearance somewhere. But then, when it wasn't Martha, I was actually sort of hopeful for a few Philip flashbacks, which is why I was extremely confused and excited when I heard Semenov Mikhail. I'm still entirely caught up and confused on the timeline of Irina/Mikhail (as was discussed in the All Episodes thread), and while reluctant, I am very curious to know where this will go. I was especially thinking about how easy it would be for Elizabeth to regard Mischa as this one entity she can never entirely have with Philip, and whether or not that will be a major point of contention if, uh, Mischa somehow works out his search to find a travel agent in America (good luck, kid).

I think it's interesting how this episode approaches the subject of home. When Elizabeth and Philip are given the very real possibility of returning home, the look of shock and confusion on their faces was interesting. This sounds dense to say now, but I just never quite thought of Elizabeth's own character arc as a struggle of what exactly home is until this episode. I definitely thought a lot about it in terms of ideology and family, but contextualizing it within the idea of what home would actually be for her is quite interesting. Her response isn't immediate joy; she's just as confused as Philip is as to what that means, and the only family she really had is gone now, so who would she really return back to?

I sort of love that William infecting himself with the lassa fever sample is both an action to protect Philip's identity and is also effectively a sacrifice he (unknowingly?) makes to prevent the continual escalation of biological warfare. Dylan Baker was so good in his death scene, and as panicked as I was that he may give too much away about Philip and Elizabeth, I loved the heartbreaking honesty of his admiration that they found a way to overcome the machines of their government to find genuine love and connection in one another. There are ways which his death makes many previous actions to have occurred in vain; yet, the tragedy of his death potentially saves millions of people. I'm going to miss William.

On another note, it's interesting when he says "American Dream," that phrase seems to haunt the Jennings family home, turning it into a dark facade that has become a symbol of their American as Apple Pie living. It's an ironic phrase as we see Elizabeth observing Philip going to Stan's house to fetch Paige, and their return.

Speaking of Paige, her asking Elizabeth about learning self-defense seemed to me like both a moment of validation for the family, but also something Elizabeth finds herself struggling with. Paige is slowly learning these skills, whether she likes it or not, even coming up with a more plausible play for Pastor Tim and Alice. It's interesting too that it seems like Paige is slowly uncovering the darkest things about her parents' jobs. She's just learned they murder people, but she has no clue they've also weaponized their bodies as tools of their trade. Yet, whether or not she is playing Matthew or has genuine feelings for him, she too is wielding her sexuality in a way that is incredibly discomforting and disconcerting for Philip. Paige is fifteen, yet how old were Philip and Elizabeth when they began to learn how to use their own bodies to gain intelligence? Someone in the last episode thread mentioned how Paige learning and throwing all these questions at Phil & Liz holds a mirror to their faces and asks them to reflect honestly on what exactly they do and why they do it. Sex and sexuality on this show has grown extremely intentional and complex since season one, so it's interesting to see how this Paige storyline could potentially further reflect on these issues.

Apologies for any incoherence in this post. Just trying to get a brain dump in before a sleep, but I definitely want to rewatch this episode again. Still processing this and the entire season as a whole!

Edited June 9, 2016 by scartact

[AliShibaz]

I'm always sad to see the end of a season. This show brings me so much enjoyment. I so look forward to every Wed night and the new episode. It feels so crushing to have to wait 9 months (approx) until the next season.

Like many others here, I also don't know how I feel about this finale. I suppose I'll need to watch it a few more times. I previously posted that I dreaded the season would end in a cliffhanger where the question would be, "Will Paige betray her parents or not?". I'm very happy that isn't the issue. But I suppose the issue is, "Will P&E pack up their kids and move back to Russia?" That just seems absurd to me. The kids would freak out and rightly so.

They may decide to go back to Russia and leave the kids in the USA. After all, the kids are US citizens - in fact, in heart and in mind. They could likely do OK in the US by themselves. I suppose P&E could always keep in touch by phone or mail. Couldn't they? The main issue would be to find some responsible adults to act as their guardians. But they must ensure both kids understand they are US citizens and don't have to move if they don't want to. At least not once they reach the age of 18 (I think). The kids must understand that once they turn 18 they become adults and they need to understand all the legal ramifications of that. It might be very clever to get the pastor and his wife to act as their guardians. If they did, it's extremely unlikely they would ever turn in P&E for fear of harming the kids.

But, I can't imagine P&E would ever leave their kids in the US and move to Russia. I suppose they really have little choice. They will likely stay in the USA and take their chances. But they need to explain to Paige she must never tell anyone she knew they were Russian agents. She can concoct some lie about telling Pastor Dim. She can say she thought her parents were just joking. But I'm thinking she might be able to be charged with some kind of crime if she knows they are KGB agents and didn't turn them in. I'm not sure about that. Does anyone know for sure?

Anyway, it's an interesting question. I'd love to hear from anyone else who has an opinion. If you were P&E, what would you do in this situation?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, we now have a new and very interesting plot line. Misha Jr. I seem to recall there is some other TV show or movie in which a married man tells his wife that he had a child with another woman many, many years ago and at first she freaks out but then agrees to accept the child (who is almost an adult) and she is willing to welcome them into her home. Does anyone know the show or movie to which I'm referring?

They wouldn't start this plot line if Misha Jr would be unable to find his father. So, I'm fairly certain that one day next season he will turn up and introduce himself to Phillip. Best if Stan wasn't present at the time. In fact, P could not afford to ever be seen together with Mish Jr. until he learns to speak English with no accent. There would just be too many questions otherwise. But they should be able to get 3 episodes out of E's upset over learning Misha Jr. is in town. Eventually, I would hope she would agree to accept him into her family or at least as much as possible. They would have to find some kind of cover story for him of course.

Lastly, I think it's time to say good bye and "have a good retirement to Gabriel". I really enjoy Frank Langella. He has made some great movies and I have posted about that in the appropriate thread under "The Americans".  Dang it! I was certain that I posted that in the thread, "The Soviet Union is No More: Casting News, Story Arc Info". But now I can't seem to find it.

When Gabriel spoke about the job, "not being forever", I think he was talking about himself. However, despite how much I admire and appreciate Frank Langella, I think it would be good for the show to have him retire and bring in a fresh youthful handler. I think his time is up. He's done a great job. It's just time to move on.

I have so much more I'd like to say. But I think I should have mercy on you all and allow other people to express their opinions too.

Thank you all so very much for putting up with me. I appreciate all the comments you have made and all the times you have answered my questions. I am pretty much amazed that after participating in this forum for an entire season, I can honestly say that I don't hate anyone here. That has never happened before. I very much enjoy and respect a great many of you and I sincerely hope we can pick up this discussion again next season. Bless you all!

Edited June 9, 2016 by AliShibaz

[RedHawk]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip was in a different park, he was completely unaware of what was going down with William.  William aborted the meet and dashed into a different park because he's been doing this for 30 years, his spidery senses were screaming at him and then the car turned off it's lights.  It's DC, helicopters aren't that unusual.  I think the woman in a scarf was just a woman in a scarf, I love how spy stuff makes us suspect everything and everyone!

By the way, Sepinwall agrees with you. 

Actually, helicopters ARE unusual over DC. I don't remember that well what it was like in the early '80s, but the skies definitely weren't buzzing with them. I know for sure they were unusual in the '90s and after 9/11 airspace restrictions got even tighter. I live on a high point in the city so I hear and notice them and often note what kind: police, medical, or government. It's unusual to see one at night and usually means police activity, and I'm pretty sure it was the same in 1984.

Point is, helicopters are unusual enough that Philip should have heard the FBI one and looked up to see what kind it was. That activity should have tipped him off that something was going down so it seemed very off to me that he didn't figure it out. 

Even if they were out in Arlington, Alexandria, or Anacostia, the copter would have been noticed. The whole thing of Philip not having a clue about the capture just didn't work for me.

Edited June 9, 2016 by RedHawk

[RedHawk]

One note: Now that Paige is making out with Matthew, a lot of "she's only 15!" comments are popping up. Not sure when her birthday falls in the year (it was mentioned once before, so maybe early spring?), but she's been 15 in the story for a while. It's likely she's turned 16 or very close. I think back then you got your learner's permit to drive at 15 and a half, so... Anyway, making out at 16 doesn't seem nearly as young as "only 15!"

[SlackerInc]

Yeah, and I certainly fooled around with 15 year old girls when I was 16 and 17.

AliShibaz, are you talking about

Spoiler

Gilmore Girls, with Luke and the daughter he discovered he had?

I was a bit underwhelmed by this finale.  It wasn't terrible, but the season has been so strong up to this point that I found it a bit underwhelming.  In particular, it seemed to end with a whimper rather than a bang.  And I agree with the recapper: if Philip thinks they are quite likely to be fleeing anyway, why bother telling Paige he doesn't want her seeing Matthew?

I was sure all season that this was the best season so far, but you gotta stick the landing.  S1 and S3 did so (S2 had the terrible Jared reveal and dying infodump, ugh).

[RedHawk]

Interesting that P&E had the little chat where she told him she'd told Paige a bit about Smolensk. I sorta missed what they then said, but it was about wondering whether Smolensk had changed a lot, been rebuilt. Wasn't their conclusion to say, "well, maybe not"? As if to acknowledge that they realized things still weren't that great "back home". Which played into their stunned reaction to Gabriel's suggestion they return. They really have no idea what "home" is like now, but they know it will be a huge change from all they've become comfortable with over 20 years. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by RedHawk

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

Yeah, and I certainly fooled around with 15 year old girls when I was 16 and 17.

AliShibaz, are you talking about ...

Nope. Thank you for trying to help me but that's not it. I've never watched Gilmore Girls at all.

 

 

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, shura said:

Yeah, I don't see this happening realistically. His dad might as well run a travel agency on Mars. There is no way he would be allowed an exit visa, so he can't leave officially. He'll have to cross the border somehow without being detected. It will be difficult to do without major help. Btw, what was that about Misha having some influential friends? What friends was that guy referring to?

Well, he's got a ton of cash.  That will get a man far, in most times and places.

[BetyBee]

In the bedroom after Gabriel had suggested going "home," Philip said something to Elizabeth about packing up and going and she said maybe.  Then he asked her if she was picturing the kids in Russia.  I think he meant packing up and going somewhere else, going on the run.  If that's the case and Elizabeth is actually thinking about it, then we may be in for a season of the Jennings on the run.  That could be fun.

When Gabriel suggested they go back to Russia, all I could think of was poor Henry!  He has no idea.  

[terrymct]

If they do end this series by having Elizabeth and Phillip take the kids back to the Soviet Union, I hope they show a bit about them trying to adapt to their "home country". It would be hard for the parents, let alone the kids.

[Chaos Theory]

It's funny how people see things.  I saw Aderholdt offering William Coke as his attempt at being kind or breaking the ice.  I didn't see Stan's reaction to Matthew and Paige kissing creepy at all and very in character.  This is a guy who doesn't have very much besides his job and the Jennings and for one brief moment he had pictures of being a real Jennings flashing in his head.  For him Matthew marrying Paige is a dream come true.   What makes it sad is what will come when he learns the truth.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[FormerMod-a1]

I didn't see Stan as creepy either.  He just thought it was funny and cool that their kids were into each other, and thought they covered making out so well, when in fact they made it more obvious.  He shared it as a "look how funny our kids our, with the smoothing of the hair and patting clothes, but also isn't it cool that our kids are into each other?" kind of thing, imo.

[YoSaffBridge]

Not to be totally reductive after this great recap and great season, but I'd totally buy a Glarkware shirt that said "Stay in that anus, William's guts!"

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

Season 2 also ended in a deathbed monologue (Jared expositing his way through all the unanswered questions), but William's was so much better. It could have been cheesy or ridiculous (like Jared's), but instead it was affecting. Maybe the writers/showrunners learned something, or maybe it's just that Dylan Baker is really good.

I suspect this just comes down to acting ability. Dylan Baker is so good. Really hoping he gets recognition for this along with the rest of the cast and writers this year.

7 hours ago, izabella said:

I felt terrible for William.  What a sad, lonely life, and the only people who know him don't even know what happened to him or that he's dead. 

This was really striking for me. William gave up his whole life for the cause, lived an isolated and lonely existence, did things he wasn't comfortable with-and for what? To die a horrible death with no one but the enemy around him, the people he did it all for unaware of his sacrifice and doubting his loyalty. This, along with Arkady's ouster, really drove home for me how far the Centre had pushed things and how much danger they put their agents in. Never satisfied, always trying to squeeze a little bit more out of them when they've already given so much. And now the whole operation is potentially blown. 

2 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

 And I agree with the recapper: if Philip thinks they are quite likely to be fleeing anyway, why bother telling Paige he doesn't want her seeing Matthew?

I think he was just viscerally reacting to what he perceived as her continuing to "work" Matthew. He doesn't want this for her, especially at this point in his life when he's feeling so weary and drained and damaged, and he's frustrated that she keeps pushing down this path despite being told not to. He wasn't thinking strategically about how to handle her or whether it was worth pissing her off, he just felt the need to make his feelings known. 

I enjoyed this episode and the season overall, but one thing that I've been consistently waiting for is for Philip and Elizabeth to have a real conversation about their waning commitment to the cause and possibly quitting and what it would mean to move the family back to Russia versus other options. They keep teasing at it, but never really going there, and Philip really isn't very responsive whenever Elizabeth tries to talk to him, despite all that est training. I'm sure this is intentional, but I really hope we're heading for a proper exploration of these things between them, because I've been waiting for them to air this out for what feels like forever. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Actually, helicopters ARE unusual over DC. I don't remember that well what it was like in the early '80s, but the skies definitely weren't buzzing with them. I know for sure they were unusual in the '90s and after 9/11 airspace restrictions got even tighter. I live on a high point in the city so I hear and notice them and often note what kind: police, medical, or government. It's unusual to see one at night and usually means police activity, and I'm pretty sure it was the same in 1984.

Point is, helicopters are unusual enough that Philip should have heard the FBI one and looked up to see what kind it was. That activity should have tipped him off that something was going down so it seemed very off to me that he didn't figure it out. 

Even if they were out in Arlington, Alexandria, or Anacostia, the copter would have been noticed. The whole thing of Philip not having a clue about the capture just didn't work for me.

Yeah, I suppose they are a bit odd at night.  I just remember helicopters bringing in big wigs all the time around Washington, but at night?  Yeah, probably cops or searching for someone in the water.

Also, meant to mention this.  I think it would be a huge mistake for Philip and Elizabeth to suddenly "go on a trip" to a safe-house right now.  If they're going to Russia, fine, but if not?  It would probably be too much of a coincidence considering the FBI lives across the street. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[benteen]

I liked that the show introduced Philip's son now instead of next season.  It's rare a show does this although another one of my favorite shows, Vikings, did something similar in their season finale.

As much as I like Arkady, Wolfe's takedown of him was great.

Quote

I suspect this just comes down to acting ability. Dylan Baker is so good. Really hoping he gets recognition for this along with the rest of the cast and writers this year.

THIS.

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I didn't see Stan as creepy either.  He just thought it was funny and cool that their kids were into each other, and thought they covered making out so well, when in fact they made it more obvious.  He shared it as a "look how funny our kids our, with the smoothing of the hair and patting clothes, but also isn't it cool that our kids are into each other?" kind of thing, imo.

I didn't see it as creepy. I saw it as extraordinarily stupid.This is a guy who is in a profession where reading people, and anticipating their reactions, is supposed to be a fundamental skill set. Yet he is completely, absolutely, totally, oblivious to the notion of the father of a 15 or 16 year old daughter  being very angry about his daughter making out, in a home without any parents present, with Stan's 17 or maybe 18 year old son. Stan's a stone cold moron, and this season went downhill as he was given more time. For the life of me, I don't understand why the writers thought having a really stupid character given a lot of time was a good choice for this show. He's not quite Col.Klink, but he's not far from it, and this isn't supposed to be a "Hogan's Heros" reboot.

[Moose135]

5 hours ago, scartact said:

Overall, I think I've mentally split this season into three separate sections. The first ranges from Glanders to Nina's death;

Damn, I lost track of time, I forgot that it was this season when Nina died, we've certainly had a lot happen in 13 episodes!

39 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

It's funny how people see things.  I saw Aderholdt offering William Coke as his attempt at being kind or breaking the ice.

Same here - this poor guy is dying in front of them, he knows it, they know it, it's just a bit of awkward small talk.

I can't believe Arkady and Oleg are both leaving.  Both great characters, and I think Arkady may be my favorite on the show.

[hellmouse]

6 hours ago, jjj said:

I know some people had them -- but have we ever seen one in the Jennings' house?  Just seems to be a phone on the wall, no answering machine nearby.

Yes, they have an answering machine. Stan left a message on it once, about Henry being at his house.

[Umbelina]

They were very common, everyone I knew had one.  They had these cute little tapes.  I think my first one had two tapes, one for the outgoing message, one for incoming calls.  Next was a one tape model, again these tiny little cassettes.  They switched to digital at some point and I hated those, found the cassette tape one somewhere and went back to that for a while.

http://www.recording-history.org/HTML/answer_biz10.php

[dramatv]

I think it is fine for the season to end in a whimper than a bang. There's still 2 seasons to go so no surprises there. I just hope the actual finale of the show's final season doesn't end in a whimper like Fargo season 2 otherwise I'll be disappointed. So much drama and tension built up to this point, I hope it gets the ending it deserves. I also hope there isn't a lame ending like Elizabeth and Phillip abandoning or betraying the KGB by seeking political asylum for the sake of their kids. This whole "us" and "other" effect becomes very lame.

[TV Anonymous]

If William was in such a delirium state when he talked about 'American Dream', why was he still speaking English? When one is no longer able to control the stream of one's consciousness, would the mother's tongue not prevail?

[madam magpie]

I'm with those who were disappointed. For me, it was the reveal of the son. That's way too soapy cliche, and it's not needed on a show this good. Oh well.

[RedHawk]

I see what you mean, amd possibly while dying the old language would return with old memories, but William has suppressed his Russian language for a long time. 

After living in the U.S. and pretending to be a natural-born citizen for 25 or so years, I'm sure he (and Elizabeth and Philip) think in English. It's something that happens with such an immersion in a language. They don't revert to speaking Russian with Gabriel even, because they are supposed to BE Americans. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by RedHawk

[ahpny]

Quote

I didn't see it as creepy. I saw it as extraordinarily stupid.This is a guy who is in a profession where reading people, and anticipating their reactions, is supposed to be a fundamental skill set. Yet he is completely, absolutely, totally, oblivious to the notion of the father of a 15 or 16 year old daughter  being very angry about his daughter making out, in a home without any parents present, with Stan's 17 or maybe 18 year old son. 

Yes, Stan’s obliviousness would be notably “off” for an ordinary guy, but for a seasoned FBI agent, even one sleep-deprived as I suppose he was, it’s just not credible. Even when factoring in his loneliness and fantasies of a family tie to the Jennings, it still didn’t quite work.

But kudos to someone for finding a Russian actor who looks a lot like Henry, but aged a decade or so. However, I didn’t quite get what Mischa Jr.’s plan is supposed to be. Sure, “powerful friends” got him out of the Soviet funny house, but now what. His ability to leave the USSR doesn’t seem too plausible, notwithstanding the cash and passports. We know the Centre knows about Mischa Jr. since Gabriel told Philip about him, and the Centre seems likely to have played a role in getting him sprung (who else would be those “powerful friends”), but why would it be in the Centre’s interest to let him leave? The USSR generally didn’t allow non-dissidents to leave in the mid-1980’s. And Misha Jr. isn’t merely a dissident. He’s also a disloyal soldier with a potentially ruinous connection to 2 high level spies (and 2.1 if you count Paige). Perhaps he’ll be used by the Centre in some plot to “work” Philip – which is kind of a continuation of what Gabriel already started by informing Philip about Mischa Jr. in the first place.

But it was nice to see Paige happy for just a just brief moment holding the baby. I don’t remember the last time we’ve seen Holly Taylor smile.

[Umbelina]

I don't think this was a whimper at all.

Although, it would have had a LOT more bang if they hadn't shown William infecting himself with the toxin in the previews.  If we'd been able to watch the chase, without knowing he'd be caught, let alone that he was about to sacrifice himself so he wouldn't give up Gabe, Philip, or Elizabeth, it would have been much more tense and much more of a "bang!"

8 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

If William was in such a delirium state when he talked about 'American Dream', why was he still speaking English? When one is no longer able to control the stream of one's consciousness, would the mother's tongue not prevail?

After 30 years?  Most of his life was spent speaking English.

[RedHawk]

I agree that the previews giving away William's sacrifice was a real misstep. The preview editors usually work so hard to obfuscate and confuse, so what were they thinking?!

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Yes, Stan’s obliviousness would be notably “off” for an ordinary guy, but for a seasoned FBI agent, even one sleep-deprived as I suppose he was, it’s just not credible. Even when factoring in his loneliness and fantasies of a family tie to the Jennings, it still didn’t quite work.

But kudos to someone for finding a Russian actor who looks a lot like Henry, but aged a decade or so. However, I didn’t quite get what Mischa Jr.’s plan is supposed to be. Sure, “powerful friends” got him out of the Soviet funny house, but now what. His ability to leave the USSR doesn’t seem too plausible, notwithstanding the cash and passports. We know the Centre knows about Mischa Jr. since Gabriel told Philip about him, and the Centre seems likely to have played a role in getting him sprung (who else would be those “powerful friends”), but why would it be in the Centre’s interest to let him leave? The USSR generally didn’t allow non-dissidents to leave in the mid-1980’s. And Misha Jr. isn’t merely a dissident. He’s also a disloyal soldier with a potentially ruinous connection to 2 high level spies (and 2.1 if you count Paige). Perhaps he’ll be used by the Centre in some plot to “work” Philip – which is kind of a continuation of what Gabriel already started by informing Philip about Mischa Jr. in the first place.

But it was nice to see Paige happy for just a just brief moment holding the baby. I don’t remember the last time we’ve seen Holly Taylor smile.

I don't think Stan is stupid, just occasionally socially awkward.  He's been shown to be a good agent, and I think it would be silly and way beyond a WTF if he suspected the Jennings of being KGB.  What is the guy supposed to do, treat every neighbor, friend, and waitress he runs into as possibly KGB?  Those were the very rare exceptions, not the rule, of people he interacts with.

It might not have been Center that got Misha released.  I have a feeling Gabe or Claudia had a hand in it, but they've been KGB forever, they probably have a few friends in high places that aren't KGB.  As far as his plan?  He's got a leg up on many who tried to escape with 3 fake passports and a boatload of money.  When he said Irina was supposed to tell him more I kept thinking "There is a note in that money!  Look for it!" 

3 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I agree that the previews giving away William's sacrifice was a real misstep. The preview editors usually work so hard to obfuscate and confuse, so what were they thinking?!

It was a serious mistake.  I wonder if the network did that by accident, because I can't imagine the showrunners would have approved that.

[stagmania]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I agree that the previews giving away William's sacrifice was a real misstep. The preview editors usually work so hard to obfuscate and confuse, so what were they thinking?!

This is why I don't watch the previews. 

8 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I'm with those who were disappointed. For me, it was the reveal of the son. That's way too soapy cliche, and it's not needed on a show this good. Oh well.

I agree it has the potential to be soapy, but I think they'll handle it well. In their interview with Sepinwall, the showrunners mentioned that they have Season 5 almost entirely plotted out, and are excited for the story they've developed (which is why they're doing two more seasons instead of one). Just like most of their plots, I doubt the Mischa story will go anywhere that we expect or predict. 

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Right, but I thought she tried to run in/from Canada, where she'd been working as KGB. It doesn't make sense that she would return to Russia and then try to run from there, does it? Am I missing something?

This is something that's been debated in other threads, and the show has never been clear about it, but I was never under the impression that Irina was an embedded illegal living out her entire life in Canada. To me she seemed more like the computer technician Oleg sent over for the Foster Medical infiltration: someone who was trained to pass as a westerner but who was dispatched for individual operations as needed and otherwise based in Russia.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

I wish I hadn't watched the previews last week!

The other thing that could happen is Misha being shot and killed trying to escape, or captured.  Oh hell, anything could happen with Misha, but whatever it is, I'm sure it will rock Philip to his core.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Stan is stupid, just occasionally socially awkward.  He's been shown to be a good agent, and I think it would be silly and way beyond a WTF if he suspected the Jennings of being KGB.  What is the guy supposed to do, treat every neighbor, friend, and waitress he runs into as possibly KGB?  Those were the very rare exceptions, not the rule, of people he interacts with.

It might not have been Center that got Misha released.  I have a feeling Gabe or Claudia had a hand in it, but they've been KGB forever, they probably have a few friends in high places that aren't KGB.  As far as his plan?  He's got a leg up on many who tried to escape with 3 fake passports and a boatload of money.  When he said Irina was supposed to tell him more I kept thinking "There is a note in that money!  Look for it!" 

It was a serious mistake.  I wonder if the network did that by accident, because I can't imagine the showrunners would have approved that.

Stan isn't stupid because he hasn't figured out that KGB agents are his neighbors (although the composite sketches that should be kept getting done of P & E really should be done with a variety of hairstyles, sans glasses, since they know the suspects have a desire to disguise themselves) , he's stupid because he is in the people reading business, supposedly with a backstory where he was good at it (undercover work is the ultimate people reading business), and he is utterly an idiot when it comes to reading people, at least when the writers want him to be. Ugh.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, shura said:

. Btw, what was that about Misha having some influential friends? What friends was that guy referring to?

Presumably Philip. Somebody seems to have twigged to the fact that this guy actually really cares about this boy so it behooves them to keep him free. The guy at the ward said he guessed those people only just found out he was stuck in there, so maybe they now do spot checks on the kid for Philip's sake.

9 hours ago, gwhh said:

Please God fix Matt hair style. It is awful beyond belief.  Now that I have said that. I can sleep. 

 

It's so completely anachronistic it drive me nuts. Henry's been given a much more reasonable haircut--not super feathered like it might have been, but not that thing Matthew has.

9 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

She already blabbed about suspecting Philip to have an affair with his secretary, which will probably not be that crucial right away

I wondered if I was the only person nervous about that. Just stay away from mentions of how your dad is often out of the house at night, Paige. Henry already emphasized all that travel to Stan.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Can someone jog my memory about Irina? The only thing I remember of her is when she and Philip met up in Montreal, at which point she was still a KGB agent. What did she do to get the KGB to bring her back to Russia and arrest her? I thought she'd left Misha Jr. for her parents to raise and wasn't part of his life.

 

Irina ran from New York and was captured I think in South America so she shouldn't have gone back home at all. Her dad saying she left that before she was arrested made it sound like she was at home. I don't understand where Irina was supposed to be living and keeping herself throughout this kid's life. Her dad seems kind of fond of Philip. Did she explain to him that she lied to him and dumped him because she thought it was important to have this baby in secret rather than just not have it? So he doesn't think he just knocked her up and abandoned them both? And it seems Irina was from Moscow because I think Gabriel said that's where the grandfather lived and presumably they met when Philip came there for his training? I didn't understand if the kid understood that his dad was an Illegal. I suppose he knew his mom was so he knew? They never just sit down and hammer out the details and it seems like they didn't even originally know if the kid was going to be real. Every time he comes up I wish we could never hear of it again, but that's not going to happen now.

Also I agree with whoever mentioned that that kid did not come across like somebody who'd have experienced what he experienced. I really liked him as an individual in the short time we saw him and liked the actor, but he'd been pretty traumatized and was surprisingly warm and healthy-seeming for it.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Ah, thanks for that! I remembered that they met in KGB school and thought they'd be partnered up but then were suddenly separated, and didn't see each other for 20-odd years until they met up again in Montreal, but I forgot that Irina subsequently tried to defect and was caught.

They didn't think they'd be partnered up as far as we know. All we know is that Irina dumped him, saying she was leaving him for another man. Then later said she lied about that and really was just pregnant. We didn't even know for sure they were both in training to be Illegals, if they were at that time. Philip said something about being put on some committee or something--was he hiding that it was really Illegals training? I don't know. It seemed like they randomly met at a train station which would be unlikely if it was just a coincidence they were both in the program later.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Right, but I thought she tried to run in/from Canada, where she'd been working as KGB. It doesn't make sense that she would return to Russia and then try to run from there, does it? Am I missing something?

No, she definitely ran from NY. That's where Philip last met her and asked her if any of this story was true.

8 hours ago, Gella said:

I never understood why an ambitious KGB officer would get pregnant, have a baby out of wedlock and then abandon that baby with her parents. That seems like a bad career decision.

It's unclear even if she abandoned him. It certainly seemed like she did and I took that as a given, but maybe that's wrong. Was she supposed to be working part-time as a spy, coming in for short missions? She certainly talked to Philip as if she was an Illegal, same as he was. Doesn't seem like there would be that many missions that could be done so quickly. And she didn't say much about her son as an actual person besides him being a loyal soldier, which encouraged the reading that he was fake. 

 

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

The way the character of Stan has been so poorly drawn has been a very consistent weakness of the show.

Just speaking about this one aspect of Stan's character I don't have a problem with his hopelessness when it comes to women. I feel like I even read a comment in an interview about his mother dying young. He's terrible with women and works in a boy's club.

So did not care about Pastor Tim and his wife and their baby and Paige. No reason for anybody to be visiting them in the hospital at all, imo. 

The more I think about, I really do hope Henry comes into play more next season. The kid's watching the Superbowl alone while his bff Matthew is watching it across the street alone with his sister? Did Henry want to watch it alone in the hope that his parents were going to watch it with him? I'd almost have thought he'd have given up and gone over there. Has he figured out that Matthew's Paige's friend and not really his? At least it might be hinting that Henry is starting to turn his attention back to his family instead of automatically making plans to watch the game at Stan's. Given his focus on Matthew I wonder how jazzed Henry would be to know he's got a brother who's been in a war and been locked up in a Soviet mental hospital for speaking out against the state? 

But also--and this connects to Stan's immaturity here too--there's again this emphasis from Matthew about getting along with his dad better when he was younger. His souring on sports seemed to be in large part psychological--it was painful now because it reminded him of the father he lost. But it was also then being linked to a sort of childish perspective, especially since he and Paige were having a conversation about seeing their parents as people after basically admitting neither of them cared about the game. Henry was literally the only person actually interested in the Superbowl. Even Stan had work. So there was almost this subtext of Henry being left alone in childhood. Paige talks about wishing she could go back to that time, but in his case it's just lonely because he's getting old enough to notice that people have other concerns. 

Mischa Jr. being in the US really does make it hard for them to go back to the USSR--unless his "friends in high places" would make that okay.

I really hope if he does show up his interest in Philip unlocks that character a bit more and it doesn't just become about how Elizabeth opens herself to him while Philip just smoothly slides into place in the background. I laughed a bit when he asked what Philip was like and Irina's father said he was "a boy...like you." Like admitting that Philip in those flashbacks could not be more generic. Elizabeth's life in Russia is this endless well of motivation and explanation for her. The most detailed bits of Philip's past are about other people.

Edited June 9, 2016 by sistermagpie

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I didn't see it as creepy. I saw it as extraordinarily stupid.This is a guy who is in a profession where reading people, and anticipating their reactions, is supposed to be a fundamental skill set. Yet he is completely, absolutely, totally, oblivious to the notion of the father of a 15 or 16 year old daughter  being very angry about his daughter making out, in a home without any parents present, with Stan's 17 or maybe 18 year old son. Stan's a stone cold moron, and this season went downhill as he was given more time. For the life of me, I don't understand why the writers thought having a really stupid character given a lot of time was a good choice for this show. He's not quite Col.Klink, but he's not far from it, and this isn't supposed to be a "Hogan's Heros" reboot.

I enjoyed this post and wanted to tell you that. I wasn't sure how to react to your previous posts where you strongly criticized the writing. But you made good logical arguments and I have to respect that whether I agree with you or not. I have never considered Stan in the light you suggest. But when I do, I have to admit that you could have hit the nail right on the head. It would be so very enjoyable to see Stan do one stupid thing after the other for the next 26 episodes. (two seasons with 13 episodes in each one means there are 26 episodes remaining - at least I think so.)

At any rate, I just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed this post very much. Well done!

[AliShibaz]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Right, but I thought she tried to run in/from Canada, where she'd been working as KGB. It doesn't make sense that she would return to Russia and then try to run from there, does it? Am I missing something?

For anyone interested, one of the currencies shown was a Canadian dollar. The paper dollar was eliminated many years ago and so even people from Canada may have never seen one of those before. Of course that makes sense since Irina said that she was living in Canada (in Montreal) the last time she appeared in an episode.

I'm wondering just how she will leave instructions for M. Jr. to find Phillip. Is it possible that she intended to do that but was arrested before she got a chance to do that? If so, it will be very interesting to see how M Jr. finds out how to track down his father. There are thousands and thousands of travel agents in the USA and he has to proceed with caution. Because if he has any idea that P. is working as an undercover Directorate S agent, he could blow his cover if he isn't very careful.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, AliShibaz said:

I'm wondering just how she will leave instructions for M. Jr. to find Phillip. Is it possible that she intended to do that but was arrested before she got a chance to do that?

It seems odd she wouldn't have had a chance since she knew when she was running.

[Chaos Theory]

It was a small scene but I liked the Wolfe/Arkady scene and that the FBI didn't believe Gaad's death was an accident.   I am thinking this is the moment that the tide turns in the FBIs favor.  I loved Wolf's line about Clark's seduction of Martha being the worst thing he has ever seen.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

I think Irina and Philip HAD to meet in training, because he was in training from about age 15 until he left for the USA.

Also the father specifically, according to subtitles, said, "Your mother SENT this" not "Your mother brought this."  Since mail was often searched, I hope she had a spy friend drop it off for her.

I'm not sure if she was embedded or just did small jobs for the KGB, such as posing as a Canadian or American and acting as courier of information or carrying something the KGB needed on to flights.  I think they could have kept her pretty busy really, microdots are tiny, and who would suspect her? 

I worry about Misha's grandfather.  If he tries to escape, and is caught with those passports, he will be under suspicion.  If he escapes clean, grand-dad will probably be in for some flack too, possibly serious.

[SunnyBeBe]

I watched the finale twice, back to back in real time as always. I still have some questions.

Where did P & E go after they left meeting with Gabriel? It was light outside.  When they returned home, Henry said the Super Bowl was over.  Isn't that usually on until 11:00 p.m.?  Was it back then?  So it would have gotten dark around 4:30 p.m. Did they spend all that time at their travel agency office making plans to leave?

Mischa looked more like Philip to me than Henry. I thought the resemblance was striking. How will he be explained?  How will he be able to lose his accent?

After Philip walked down to Stan's house, Elizabeth looked down and saw another car drive by.  Was that just street traffic or something more?  Did someone follow to ensure Stan got home okay?

I just didn't buy how casual Oleg was.  He didn't seem bothered at all about what he did. Really?  I just have trouble believing that he suddenly wants to return home.  Odd, to me.  What was Arkady thinking as she sat and drank?  Is he trying to figure out what happened?  Does he suspect Oleg.  Tatiana isn't very perceptive.  I think they've made mistake putting her in charge. 

I'm still on the fence about Philip not seeing anything odd.  How was he that far away that he didn't hear sirens, see helecoptor with lights?  Hmm..

Edited June 9, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[stagmania]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Stan isn't stupid because he hasn't figured out that KGB agents are his neighbors (although the composite sketches that should be kept getting done of P & E really should be done with a variety of hairstyles, sans glasses, since they know the suspects have a desire to disguise themselves) , he's stupid because he is in the people reading business, supposedly with a backstory where he was good at it (undercover work is the ultimate people reading business), and he is utterly an idiot when it comes to reading people, at least when the writers want him to be. Ugh.

This is actually a really common character trope that a whole boatload of shows are based around, commonly referred to as a Vocational Irony Narrative. The super competent fixer can't fix their own life, the intuitive detective completely misses what's going on with their own loved ones, etc. I don't actually agree that Stan is stupid (is the guy not allowed to have a light-hearted goofy moment?), but even if you read it as him being incompetent in his own life despite his job skills, that's a perfectly valid characterization choice. 

[madam magpie]

33 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I agree it has the potential to be soapy, but I think they'll handle it well. In their interview with Sepinwall, the showrunners mentioned that they have Season 5 almost entirely plotted out, and are excited for the story they've developed (which is why they're doing two more seasons instead of one). Just like most of their plots, I doubt the Mischa story will go anywhere that we expect or predict. 

I'm sure that's true; unpredictable isn't my issue. It's the cliche, the fallback of the long-lost child to provide drama. It's always unrealistic and unnecessary. At least this one didn't come out of nowhere. Unless Mischa turns out to be a fake, I can't see my opinion changing. And if he does turn out to be a fake, I expect to roll my eyes at the fake-out. I'm sure it will be acted and written well, but I'm disappointed it's there at all. I haven't liked it since Irina brought it up, and the only reason it didn't irritate me before was that it appeared we were getting a realistic approach: Philip has a son he'll never meet, but that knowledge affects his relationships with his wife and children. 

[Athena]

10 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

As creepy as Stan's weird sex dance was, I found it (oddly) endearing how excited he was about the prospect of officially becoming part of the Jennings family if Matthew marries Paige. Outside of work, it's like the Jenningses are his whole world. It's going to be so awful when he finally discovers the truth ...

When William was saying how he envied the Jennings, this is something he and Stan share. Poor sad sack Stan. I don't think he was creepy telling Philip about the kids. It was strange, but not out of character. He gets into this immature state with Philip and Henry sometimes. He turns his work self "off" and while I do believe that he can be a good agent, he's been susceptible to manipulation. He does not have a lot of real friends from spending so much time under cover. Losing Gaad was bad for the show, but also for Stan who had a real friend aside from Philip.

I am looking forward to the Mischa plot. He looks like a cross between Philip and Henry. He looks young enough to be Philip's son, but still looks like a young adult. The casting on this show has been great so far. I can't wait to see the guy act.

I'll miss Arkady and Oleg on the show.

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I watched the finale twice, back to back in real time as always. I still have some questions.

1.  Where did P & E go after they left meeting with Gabriel? It was light outside.  When they returned home, Henry said the Super Bowl was over.  Isn't that usually on until 11:00 p.m.?  Was it back then?  So it would have gotten dark around 4:30 p.m. Did they spend all that time at their travel agency office making plans to leave?

2.  Mischa looked more like Philip to me than Henry. I thought the resemblance was striking. How will he be explained?  How will he be able to lose his accent?

3.  After Philip walked down to Stan's house, Elizabeth looked down and saw another car drive by.  Was that just street traffic or something more?  Did someone follow to ensure Stan got home okay?

4.  I just didn't buy how casual Oleg was.  He didn't seem bothered at all about what he did. Really?  I just have trouble believing that he suddenly wants to return home.  Odd, to me.  What was Arkady thinking as she sat and drank?  Is he trying to figure out what happened?  Does he suspect Oleg.  Tatiana isn't very perceptive.  I think they've made mistake putting her in charge. 

Added numbers.

1.  No idea, I don't remember it being light,and never watched the Superbowl on the east coast.  Anyone?

2.  He looked like both of them quite a bit, but really like Henry to me.  Good choice.  No way will he lose that accent easily, he may not speak English at all.

3.  I didn't notice that either, probably normal traffic though, I doubt anyone would be checking on Stan.

4.  Oleg wasn't casual.  He was getting the hell out of Dodge!  He knew that the FBI could now blackmail him for giving them that.  He sucked it up, and did it because it was the right thing to do, but he's too smart to die for that.  He probably doesn't want to leave the USA, but his brother's death and mom excuse works perfectly to save his ass.

Arkady was thinking about going home to Russia in disgrace, and just how bad a thing that could end up being.  I can't see any reason he would suspect Oleg of anything.

Tatiana seems perceptive enough to me.  Anything could have exposed William.  She never gave Oleg any names.  She's a bit upset to be losing him, the sex looked good, and she may have wanted more than that, but oh well.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Bubbetv]

I think that Mischa's benefactor could be through Irina herself. If she had the juice to get all those passports and cash, she may have leveraged someone to get him out of jail.

For me, this finale's theme was how one person doeasn't matter: the EST speech, William's loneliness, jettison Arkady and Oleg, Mischa's sounding off in disagreement with The Party Line. Then the layer of tension where one word from William, or Stan, or Paige will blow the lid off their whole lives. I looked at the groovyhair baby and really just saw futility for everyone's Lofty goals. 

So I hope we're moving towards the J family calling bullshit on their jobs, stepping back from the hubris, and picking a life for themselves.

[attica]

11 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Hey, some people still think Coke is good for a stomach ache!

After a bout of nausea once, I went to the pharmacy to get something for it. So there was this bottle labeled "Anti-nausea". Hey! Just the thing, right? it was, like, $6 for a 4 oz bottle. I read the active ingredient list: glucose and phosphoric acid. Dudes, that's cola. (Or 7-up, whatevs.) The only difference is the fizz, and the price. For the same $6, I could buy 3 2-liter bottles. 

And anyway, Diet Coke was already the love of my life by this time in the 80s. William seems like a DC guy to me.

I imagined all of us, in our own homes, reacting with an 'aww, it's baby Groovyhair!' at the same time. It's a Groovyhair hive mind.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

I enjoyed this post and wanted to tell you that. I wasn't sure how to react to your previous posts where you strongly criticized the writing. But you made good logical arguments and I have to respect that whether I agree with you or not. I have never considered Stan in the light you suggest. But when I do, I have to admit that you could have hit the nail right on the head. It would be so very enjoyable to see Stan do one stupid thing after the other for the next 26 episodes. (two seasons with 13 episodes in each one means there are 26 episodes remaining - at least I think so.)

At any rate, I just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed this post very much. Well done!

Thanks. I don't intend to be to harsh.I wouldn't have watched the show if I didn't think there were a lot of terrific elements. I'm frustrated a little with it because I think the show could have been truly great, with a little more care. Unless the purpose is comic relief, it's just a bad idea to give a lot of screen time to dim characters, or to make the characters dim in a noncredible fashion when convenient.

Stan is supposed to be a seasoned, highly successful long term undercover agent, now in counterintelligence. As such, he should be, as a matter of habit, accurately reading people consistently, and manipulating them. Frankly, he should be a borderline sociopath. Go look at the interviews of the real life agent who formed the basis of the movie "Donnie Brascoe". Of course his marriage broke up; long term undercover work ruins marriages. The people who choose that work really don't put a lot of priority on having good marriages,so they don't get all angsty when it happens, to the point that they fall like a sap for a beautiful Russian agent. Sociopaths don't do stuff like that.

When Stan doesn't have a lot of scenes, the show improves, and when he does, the show gets worse. I wish the writers had thought this through better.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm not sure if she was embedded or just did small jobs for the KGB, such as posing as a Canadian or American and acting as courier of information or carrying something the KGB needed on to flights.  I think they could have kept her pretty busy really, microdots are tiny, and who would suspect her? 

And yet when she talked to Philip in Duty and Honor she made it seem like she was pulling stunts like he does all the time.

 

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Mischa looked more like Philip to me than Henry. I thought the resemblance was striking. How will he be explained?  How will he be able to lose his accent?

The actor doesn't have an accent when he speaks English...maybe he'll speak it that well because Irina did. Though again, I don't know how he was raised or by whom. I would hope they wouldn't do that though. Frankly, I'd prefer it if he didn't speak English. Or spoke it very little. Sorry for the extra work for the leads but it's a pretty perfect way to symbolize the two lives the kids represent and force Philip to resurrect his Russian self.

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I haven't liked it since Irina brought it up, and the only reason it didn't irritate me before was that it appeared we were getting a realistic approach: Philip has a son he'll never meet, but that knowledge affects his relationships with his wife and children. 

That was my feeling. And like you say, at least it made some sense that he had this potential son that of course he would never meet since he's an embedded Illegal in the US and has never met the kid. But now the kid's packing up to show up on his doorstep. The long lost son/brother!

1 minute ago, Bubbetv said:

I think that Mischa's benefactor could be through Irina herself. If she had the juice to get all those passports and cash, she may have leveraged someone to get him out of jail.

 

Irina's in prison. I don't see how she'd have any leverage with anybody.

[Darrenbrett]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, I'm probably one of the ones who never trusted Gabe, or anything he said.  Obviously, I've been proven wrong about the whole son thing.  As far as being grandfatherly? It's a technique, much like Philip is fatherly with Kim, and Elizabeth became friends with Young Hee.  He's trained to get other people to do what Center wants, and that works the best with Elizabeth. 

As I said, I don't trust spies.  They are very good at reading people and saying what needs to be said.  Stan was promising Nina all kinds of stuff too, and he couldn't deliver it.  Philip made Martha believe him for quite a while, then knew when to shift to more truthful to keep her in line.  Deception is a huge part of the job.

LOL. But all you're doing in saying this is re-enforcing your preconceptions. You're saying, "Yes, he's grandfatherly.. but WAIT! that's just a rouse. It's a tactic! It's in Master Spy Manual Chapter 3: Being Grandfatherly!

I'm saying that, beyond all that, I think much of his behavior with P & E is sincere. Yes, I think he's a battle-heartened veteran. But I also think he genuinely cares for his agents - and believes in an underlying principle that he sees as ultimately serving the whole world.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Thanks. I don't intend to be to harsh.I wouldn't have watched the show if I didn't think there were a lot of terrific elements. I'm frustrated a little with it because I think the show could have been truly great, with a little more care. Unless the purpose is comic relief, it's just a bad idea to give a lot of screen time to dim characters, or to make the characters dim in a noncredible fashion when convenient.

Stan is supposed to be a seasoned, highly successful long term undercover agent, now in counterintelligence. As such, he should be, as a matter of habit, accurately reading people consistently, and manipulating them. Frankly, he should be a borderline sociopath. Go look at the interviews of the real life agent who formed the basis of the movie "Donnie Brascoe". Of course his marriage broke up; long term undercover work ruins marriages. The people who choose that work really don't put a lot of priority on having good marriages,so they don't get all angsty when it happens, to the point that they fall like a sap for a beautiful Russian agent. Sociopaths don't do stuff like that.

When Stan doesn't have a lot of scenes, the show improves, and when he does, the show gets worse. I wish the writers had thought this through better.

Moving this comment to this post.

 Spies in movies are super heros that know everything, unless they are some misfit civilian accidentally roped into the spy world, then they are just so very clever and out fox everyone.   I think this show is much more realistic about the failings of spies, who are, in reality, just people, with faults, with luck, with bad luck.  Nothing is a sure thing in spying. 

Yes, Stan is trained.  Guess what?  So are Elizabeth and Philip.  They are also very very good at covering because they do it, day in and day out, and have for 20 years.  They have much more experience than Stan at undercover work.

Stan went undercover for a couple of years, in the USA, and just about lost it.  Mostly he's overt, not a covert agent.  He would probably spot tells in civilians, but in other very well trained spies?  Not so much.

I've liked many of Stan's scenes.  He stood up to Gaad.  He doggedly followed his hunch about Martha and exposed her.  As far as him not suspecting the Jennings?  Why would he?  He's rarely home anyway, he may as well suspect his next door neighbors as well, not just the family across the street.  Seeing KGB everywhere he looked would be the sign of an agent that needs to retire.  I agree that he got roped in when the KGB learned about Nina and turned her, but again, the man was still reeling from his skin head embed, and his wife and son now people he didn't even know, so he was in a particularly vulnerable place in his life.  Human.  His read on Nina wasn't even wrong, she was legit, until caught.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Umbelina