Black Panther (2018)

[stealinghome]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

W'Kabi's actions really weren't beyond the pale. W'Kabi wasn't as wedded to tradition as Okoye, yet was every bit as dedicated to the service of his country as Okoye.

She serves Erik, but does not support him. She colludes with Nakia, however briefly, behind Erik's back and stages a revolt on Erik as soon as her preferred King returns. W'Kabi does waver, briefly, at T'Challa's return, but he ultimately chooses to support the sitting King.

But Okoye didn’t turn on her best friend to support some psychopath that she’d known for .02 seconds. Nor did Okoye aid that psychopath in trying to use Wakanda to start World War III.

1 hour ago, benteen said:

W'Kabi's relationship with Okoye and his character in general feels very much like they were added in reshoots.  It really doesn't flow well with the rest of the movie.

I think W’Kabi’s character suffered from trying to wear too many hats for the sake of the plot. T’Challa needs a friend? Check. The movie needs another character to voice a different anti-isolationist stance? Check. The movie needs a way for Killmonger to actually get into Wakanda? Check. We need a little Wakandan civil war/betrayal to amp up the T’Challa vs Killmonger drama? Check. But we want a reason that W’Kabi stands down eventually? Oh, okay, we’ll make him Okoye’s lover and check that box too! I saw the movie with a friend and we both agreed his character seemed to be just whatever was convenient for the plot in any given moment.

[Apprentice79]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

W'Kabi's actions really weren't beyond the pale. W'Kabi wasn't as wedded to tradition as Okoye, yet was every bit as dedicated to the service of his country as Okoye.

She serves Erik, but does not support him. She colludes with Nakia, however briefly, behind Erik's back and stages a revolt on Erik as soon as her preferred King returns. W'Kabi does waver, briefly, at T'Challa's return, but he ultimately chooses to support the sitting King.

And I seem to recall many people similarly telling T'Challa to heed the rule of law in Civil War, yet he doggedly tried to murder an innocent man until he was confronted with incontrovertible proof of Barnes innocence.

However, T'Challa being alive, negated Erik's legitimacy, as a King. Since T'Challa did not yield.  It is probably why Okoye quickly sided with him.  In the trailer, for the movie, she calls him the Black Panther. I don't remember seeing that in the actual movie. There were scenes that were obviously cut for time. 

W'Kabi also had no reaction to Erik killing Zuri. I remember the crowd having a visceral reaction to his savage murder. So, he was obviously a beloved person in Wakanda.  W'Kabi's motivations for his betrayal needed to be more fleshed out.  

I do think that T'Challa understood Erik's rage, since he lived it during the civil war movie. It is probably why he accepted his challenge. He could have easily refused to do it.  He was already King, Erik was not present to challenge him at his coronation.  

[Katsullivan]

18 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

In the case of Shuri, I think it was a bit of ego more than anything. She's a teenage super genius who should be as famous to the world as Tony Stark, but the rest of the world thinks that Wakanda is just a poor third world nation. I just think that she couldn't resist the chance to show off and brag a little to one of those outsiders, even if it wasn't the tactically wisest thing to do.

Then they really shouldn't have had Shuri cry "colonizer" at him. It made the scene tone-deaf. In one moment, she's "woke" enough to reference colonization and its tactics of theft and appropriation... in the next moment, she's behaving like a textbook victim of colonization by happily singing out her country's secrets to said colonizer. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I think W’Kabi’s character suffered from trying to wear too many hats for the sake of the plot. T’Challa needs a friend? Check. The movie needs another character to voice a different anti-isolationist stance? Check. The movie needs a way for Killmonger to actually get into Wakanda? Check. We need a little Wakandan civil war/betrayal to amp up the T’Challa vs Killmonger drama? Check. But we want a reason that W’Kabi stands down eventually? Oh, okay, we’ll make him Okoye’s lover and check that box too! I saw the movie with a friend and we both agreed his character seemed to be just whatever was convenient for the plot in any given moment.

I disagree. I feel the problem was the movie being too short, and not because the W'Kabi wore too many hats. I bought W'Kabi, Okoye and T'Challa as a dynamic of peers similar to Ron/Hermione/Harry. I found their friendship believable and I also found W'Kabi's bitterness and disillusionment believable as well. I think the problem might also be too many people sympathizing with N'Jobu's intentions without examining just how much damage he did to Wakanda by his betrayal. This damage is depicted through the loss of W'Kabi's parents but the movie didn't spend as much time going into this. This is where I feel the time crunch.

W'Kabi's anti-isolationist stance isn't that much different from his anti-refugee stance. It's rooted in imperialism. That's another failure of the movie, I feel, that might be due to time or maybe just due to what Coogler wanted to say. But the movie didn't talk enough about how Wakanda could easily have become a tyrannical Empire, like Killmonger imagined. The choices Wakanda had were presented as: isolate or defend Africa, and not isolate, defend Africa or conquer the rest of Africa, and the known world. It's perfectly logical that someone who holds himself as superior to other people/countries and consequently anti-immigration, would also believe that if isolationism is not possible, then conquest and submission would be the next best option. The movie really didn't go much into how much of Wakanda's policies were rooted in a (healthy?) does of paranoia and how that paranoia can go both inwards and outwards.

On a character note, the movie could have shown more scenes between Killmonger and W'Kabi to establish their insta-BFFness, or at least have Killmonger work a little more on that paranoia. 

I think the movie generally failed by not depicting enough that Wakanda's decision to start World War III wasn't just Killmonger's decree as King, but also a conflict that had been brewing under the surface for a long time.

[Dee]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

But Okoye didn’t turn on her best friend to support some psychopath that she’d known for .02 seconds. Nor did Okoye aid that psychopath in trying to use Wakanda to start World War III.

W'Kabi was a loyal supporter of T'Chaka & the crown after years of failed promises to bring his parents murderer to justice.

Then his supposed best friend orders him to specifically remain home when an opportunity arises to once again apprehend Klaue, and W'Kabi, ever the loyalist, agrees without any drama.

Only then for his supposed best friend and love interest to both return, empty handed with an extremely weak apology AND an injured white CIA agent, after recently taking on another 'injured white boy.' 

And T'Challa previously had no problem betraying his beliefs to engage in extrajudicial murder, so if T'Challa receives a Mulligan for his actions in Civil War, why should W'Kabi be any different?

[stealinghome]

I would say because T'Challa wasn’t betraying his apparently lifetime BFF to go after Bucky. Nor did T’Challa go along with actively trying to start World War III in the process. (Never mind the fact that Killmonger had been working with Klaue and Killmonger’s father had been responsible for W’Kabi’s parents’ deaths...either W’Kabi didn’t actually care about his parents’ deaths or he didn’t ask any questions. Neither speaks well of him.)

Also think T’Challa showed more remorse at the end of CACW while I didn’t see the same level of regret or newfound maturity in W’Kabi.

just off the top of my head—and I’m not someone who particularly liked T’Challa in CACW. But imo he did way more to redeem himself in that movie than W’Kabi did here, and had less to redeem in the first place.

[Apprentice79]

13 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I would say because T'Challa wasn’t betraying his apparently lifetime BFF to go after Bucky. Nor did T’Challa go along with actively trying to start World War III in the process. (Never mind the fact that Killmonger had been working with Klaue and Killmonger’s father had been responsible for W’Kabi’s parents’ deaths...either W’Kabi didn’t actually care about his parents’ deaths or he didn’t ask any questions. Neither speaks well of him.)

Also think T’Challa showed more remorse at the end of CACW while I didn’t see the same level of regret or newfound maturity in W’Kabi.

just off the top of my head—and I’m not someone who particularly liked T’Challa in CACW. But imo he did way more to redeem himself in that movie than W’Kabi did here, and had less to redeem in the first place.

Perfect post.  I wonder if the fractured relationship between T'Challa and W'kabi is the reason why M'Baku is with T'Challa in the Avengers movie, next month. I wonder if they will address his absence.  Okoye, the Dora milaje, alongside, the border tribe are shown, prominently, in the trailers, fighting with their king.  That being said, I do want to see W'kabi back, in the sequels.. I love Daniel Kaluuya.  There was so much talent in that movie. 

[Dee]

T'Challa was betraying everything his father stood for. At the time of his death, T'Chaka was making efforts for Wakanda rejoin the world in peace & goodwill. His son going on a murderous rampage, however justified he may have believed he was at the time, undercuts all of that.

Also, if we're discussing actions that don't reflect well on certain Wakandans, T'Challa was fine with denying Erik altogether until he was, once again, confronted with proof of Erik's claims. Instead of publicly acknowledging his father's faults, he chooses to act ignorant of the entire situation, despite privately agonizing over T'Chaka's actions after being told the truth by one of his father's closest friends.

And it's reductive to label Erik's plans as starting 'World War III.' Erik's methods and ethics were very wrong, but Wakanda was equally wrong for ignoring & not actively addressing the suffering of people of color around the world (something even Nakia confronts T'Challa about). A fact T'Challa recognizes, after the dust settles, and he tries to offer a level of remuneration, however piecemeal.

How did T'Challa show more remorse than W'Kabi? When they were both confronted with the wrongness of their current course of actions, they stopped themselves and began working through proper channels of authority. In T'Challa's case it was giving Zemo to the UN and in W'Kabi's case it was laying down arms in submission.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Dee

[Katsullivan]

7 hours ago, stealinghome said:

But Okoye didn’t turn on her best friend to support some psychopath that she’d known for .02 seconds. Nor did Okoye aid that psychopath in trying to use Wakanda to start World War III.

 

For the record, Killmonger is only a psychopath because he lost the crown and he never started his war. Otherwise, he'd join the ranks of all the other European Conquerors and Conquistadors of Africa and Latin America.

 

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

But imo he did way more to redeem himself in that movie than W’Kabi did here, and had less to redeem in the first place.

We really don't know what W'Kabi's fate is presently since the last we see of him is kneeling before Okoye. At the very least, I imagine he will charged with: Treason since as okoye pointed out - the uncompleted Challenge meant that T'Challa was still King, and he was disobeying his King and waging war; Sacrilege, by ignoring/interfering with the sacred tradition of the Challenge Contest. I guess the Jobari also did the same thing since they prevented T'Challa from his certain death by drowning/bleeding but they didn't know about the Challenge since it was done so suddenly and without the usual protocol.

 

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Wakanda was equally wrong for ignoring & not actively addressing the suffering of people of color around the world (something even Nakia confronts T'Challa about).

Was Wakanda wrong? I know the movie wants us to think this but I don’t agree. It would be different if Wakanda had ever presented itself as some moral standard to other countries OR if its wealth was the direct result of exploiting other countries… But neither of this applies to Wakanda. The only people responsible for addressing the suffering of people of colour were the people who had inflicted said suffering to them in the first place. Which is part of why that Shuri/Ross scene irritates me so much.  The fact that the movie somehow managed to address slavery and exploitation as something That Just Happened, and was Wakanda’s fault for Letting It Happen – is one of the biggest problems I have with this movie.

[Apprentice79]

I don't think that the movie said that Wakanda was responsible for slavery. They did nothing to stop it or help the descendants of African slaves around the world, to overcome, the oppression that continued after emancipation.  For example: the Jim crow laws in the south or the war on drugs that incarcerated Black men at an alarming rate, the forced sterilization of Black women to keep the Black population down.

The same goes for the countries in Africa, after they got their independence from the European powers. The continued exploitation of Africa's resources, to the detriment of the Africans. The various dictatorships that decimated the continent that caused wars, displacement, famines, diseases. Not to mention,  the extinction of animals that are native to Africa. They witnessed these atrocities and did nothing.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Apprentice79 said:

I don't think that the movie said that Wakanda was responsible for slavery.

By presenting the opinion that it was Wakanda's duty to prevent slavery as an indisputable fact, as if slavery was a Bad Thing That Happened like an earthquake or a volcano eruption and not something that Europe Did To Africa, the movie was stating that Wakanda was responsible for slavery, and every bad thing that happened to black people. 

[wingster55]

4 hours ago, stealinghome said:

(Never mind the fact that Killmonger had been working with Klaue and Killmonger’s father had been responsible for W’Kabi’s parents’ deaths...either W’Kabi didn’t actually care about his parents’ deaths or he didn’t ask any questions. Neither speaks well of him.)

On this issue, Killmonger might have said working with Klaue was a necessary evil to come to Wakanda/that he was only using and was always planning to kill him once he wasn't needed. Also N'Jobu is only indirectly responsible and wasn't a consequence he intended plus he is dead...so W'kabi would still have placed his anger on Klaue alone.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Was Wakanda wrong?

Wakanda was wrong for ignoring the issue.

No, Wakanda wasn't the cause of institutional racism, but to remain impassive as people of color, while other people of color, many of which who looked like them, continued to suffer was ignoble at best, and contemptuous at worst imo.

[Perfect Xero]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Then they really shouldn't have had Shuri cry "colonizer" at him. It made the scene tone-deaf. In one moment, she's "woke" enough to reference colonization and its tactics of theft and appropriation... in the next moment, she's behaving like a textbook victim of colonization by happily singing out her country's secrets to said colonizer.

I think that when his response to being called a colonizer is to just respond with his name and not getting offended or defensive it got her to let her guard down with him a bit.

Shuri is a teenager who quotes memes and wants to go to Coachella. To her the world outside of Wakanda isn't just a place to either shun or attack, it's a world that has a cultural value of its own.

I don't think that she's behaving like a victim of colonization, rather she's excited to be engaging with someone from that outside culture and even if he is a CIA agent he's one who got there because he got there trying to protect her friend.

Also, the thing about Ross being, effectively, a prisoner at that point holds true for Shuri as well. Ross is powerless in his current situation and she can't imagine that he's capable of escaping or tricking them into letting him go if he's not trustworthy.

So, to me, it's just a teenager being both a bit naive and a bit overconfident.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I don't think that the movie said that Wakanda was responsible for slavery. They did nothing to stop it or help the descendants of African slaves around the world, to overcome, the oppression that continued after emancipation.  For example: the Jim crow laws in the south or the war on drugs that incarcerated Black men at an alarming rate, the forced sterilization of Black women to keep the Black population down.

The same goes for the countries in Africa, after they got their independence from the European powers. The continued exploitation of Africa's resources, to the detriment of the Africans. The various dictatorships that decimated the continent that caused wars, displacement, famines, diseases. Not to mention,  the extinction of animals that are native to Africa. They witnessed these atrocities and did nothing.

I agree , but it is a Marvel movie with a super heroes creed, last said by Peter Parker's mission statement in Spider-Man Homecoming.  So by implication Wakanda by doing nothing was responsible, but now with a hero as their leader they are taking their proper place.

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think that when his response to being called a colonizer is to just respond with his name and not getting offended or defensive it got her to let her guard down with him a bit.

Shuri is a teenager who quotes memes and wants to go to Coachella. To her the world outside of Wakanda isn't just a place to either shun or attack, it's a world that has a cultural value of its own.

I don't think that she's behaving like a victim of colonization, rather she's excited to be engaging with someone from that outside culture and even if he is a CIA agent he's one who got there because he got there trying to protect her friend.

Also, the thing about Ross being, effectively, a prisoner at that point holds true for Shuri as well. Ross is powerless in his current situation and she can't imagine that he's capable of escaping or tricking them into letting him go if he's not trustworthy.

So, to me, it's just a teenager being both a bit naive and a bit overconfident.

Her guard was already down since she was alone with him without protection. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the problem with that scene extends beyond Shuri, even though Shuri started out as my focus. Ross the CIA agent is left chilling in the heart of Wakanda's precious Vibranium mountain, in close proximity to High Royal Highness, Princess Shuri, who is not only next in line to the King, but also the Head of Technology. There are no guards in sight, no supervisors, nothing. He's left to wake up unconstrained, wander around her lab, and quiz her on sensitive Wakanda information that has been hidden from outsiders for centuries.

I can find that scene believable if Wakanda has a policy of either mind-wiping outsiders who discovered their secrets or... taking some more permanent measures. Shuri was aware of this and that was why she was so blithe around him. She knew he would never be able to repeat anything he heard or saw... 

[Katsullivan]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Wakanda wasn't the cause of institutional racism, but to remain impassive as people of color, while other people of color, many of which who looked like them, continued to suffer was ignoble at best, and contemptuous at worst imo.

This take, which I know the film endorses but I don't believe bears under scrutiny, presumes that Wakanda did not have the option to impose itself on the world and establish an Empire ... in other words, act as every other "Super-power" in the world. It's almost an extension of the Magical Negro trope where the Black Character is immensely powerful but all that power is in the service of the "true" White Heroes. Here, it's just assumed that Wakanda, the Magical Negro Country, must use its powers to correct the atrocities committed by White Countries. In fact it's assumed so completely, that we take it as fact that: a, Wakanda is ignoble, as you said, for not doing this and b, the possibility of abusing its power is so beyond comprehension, that Wakanda isn't even credit for not doing as every super-power in the world has done. Instead of praising Wakanda for not waging war and enslaving humanity as all the European explorers and conquistadors did when they had a fraction of Wakanda's advantages, Wakanda is being blamed because it didn't automatically assume the role of Super-Nanny to the World.

1 hour ago, Raja said:

I agree , but it is a Marvel movie with a super heroes creed, last said by Peter Parker's mission statement in Spider-Man Homecoming.  So by implication Wakanda by doing nothing was responsible, but now with a hero as their leader they are taking their proper place.

I agree with this. In real life, Wakanda's decision to open its borders would end badly for it. 

In the trailer for the next movie

Spoiler

we're already seeing how T'Challa's decisions have led to bringing war to Wakanda, and the sacrifice of goodness knows how many Wakandan lives will be lost trying to keep the "One Tribe" world safe. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Dee]

21 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

This take, which I know the film endorses but I don't believe bears under scrutiny, presumes that Wakanda did not have the option to impose itself on the world and establish an Empire ... in other words, act as every other "Super-power" in the world. It's almost an extension of the Magical Negro trope where the Black Character is immensely powerful but all that power is in the service of the "true" White Heroes. Here, it's just assumed that Wakanda, the Magical Negro Country, must use its powers to correct the atrocities committed by White Countries. In fact it's assumed so completely, that we take it as fact that: a, Wakanda is ignoble, as you said, for not doing this and b, the possibility of abusing its power is so beyond comprehension, that Wakanda isn't even credit for not doing as every super-power in the world has done. Instead of praising Wakanda for not waging war and enslaving humanity as all the European explorers and conquistadors did when they had a fraction of Wakanda's advantages, Wakanda is being blamed because it didn't automatically assume the role of Super-Nanny to the World.

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Wakanda is well within its rights not to do anything, but they also can't act as if the rest of the world, much of whom is oppressed people of color should feel impressed that they chose to remain conscientious objectors while those around them continue to suffer.

And again, it isn't just Erik who voices concern about Wakanda's standing in regards to the rest of the world and the plight of the oppressed. It's also T'Chaka, W'Kabi and Nakia (T'Challa's beloved father and two of his closest friends).

No one is saying Wakanda needs to wage war or enact their own brand of colonialism, they can't solve everyone's problems, but clearly there was a need to for the country to engage with the rest of the world on a more substantive basis.

Hence T'Challa's embrace of Nakia's moderate form of philanthropy in the film's final moments.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Dee

[romantic idiot]

Regarding fewer women challenging T'challa during his coronation, I thought it showed women had more sense anyway since, to me, clearly T'challa is the right choice. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge when a man is better for the role. The women felt they were happy with the leadership that T'Challa would provide and I don't see anything wrong with that. 

In terms of stepping in to save people from atrocities, if I don't blame Switzerland for remaining neutral in WW2 (and I don't), if I don't blame France, America, Belgium, Rome for not stopping the British from creating the Irish famine, then I can't blame Wakanda for not stepping in to save Africans from slavery. Maybe it's the Indian in me but I blame the English for the 35 million deaths in Bengal due to famines created by them during their rule. I wouldn't blame anything mythical people of Indian origin for not stepping in to save us. *shrugs*

[morakot]

I very much enjoyed this movie - and was particularly inspired by seeing so many characters living up to their full power and potential. I was looking forward to seeing a Wakanda that was similarly empowered but was a little disappointed. With so much high technology and an awareness of nature around them, the city seemed so, well, ordinary. I was hoping to see a more green city that was as much of part of the landscape as the lab was a part of the mountain/meteorite itself.  I recognized the connection to traditional African architecture but didn't think that a few thatched roofs on a skyscraper were enough.  

I also wondered about the graffiti. My understanding is that, in the first world, it is a reaction to being powerless and a way to make voices heard that are more often silenced. Is that needed in Wakanda? There was plenty of other art that was beautiful and highly visible.

[HunterHunted]

17 hours ago, morakot said:

I was looking forward to seeing a Wakanda that was similarly empowered but was a little disappointed. With so much high technology and an awareness of nature around them, the city seemed so, well, ordinary. I was hoping to see a more green city that was as much of part of the landscape as the lab was a part of the mountain/meteorite itself. 

I was a little disappointed by that too. I was hoping for something like Mexico's Garden Santa Fe Mall

http://www.kmdarchitects.com/garden-santa-fe/

or

the Gardens by the Bay Supertree Grove in Singapore.

https://www.gardensbythebay.com.sg/en/attractions/supertree-grove/facts-and-figures.html

https://newatlas.com/singapore-gardens-by-the-bay-supertree-cloud-forest/33590/

I feel like we got better depictions of cities in films when there was more matte painting of backgrounds and finding actual locations. 

[morakot]

Quote

I didn't notice the graffiti. 

When T'challa and Nakia are in the street talking, there's large, vibrant, colorful graffiti behind them.

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, doram said:

These are beautiful and I now wish I had seen more of that.

Another inspiration they could have used is 25 Verde in Turin

https://www.boredpanda.com/urban-treehouse-green-architecture-25-verde-luciano-pia-turin-italy/

Especially if the concept of a green building is mixed with traditional vernacular architecture styles.

http://www.africavernaculararchitecture.com

Or just the best examples of organic architecture

https://ecofriend.com/stunning-examples-organic-architecture.html

I know that some people will think this is off topic discussion of architecture, but there is a lot of great detail about Wakanda given in good production and costume design and Wakanda very much is a character. I loved learning that the traditional blankets that the Border tribe wore also operated as energy shields and that kimoyo beads had a purpose beyond decorations. That's what the architecture could do too. Mixing green, organic, and traditional styles could demonstrate their respect of their history, a respect for nature, and a willingness to innovate.

4 hours ago, doram said:

I didn't notice the graffiti.

3 hours ago, morakot said:

When T'challa and Nakia are in the street talking, there's large, vibrant, colorful graffiti behind them.

 

Yeah, there was some graffiti in the one street in Wakanda.

[Lantern7]

I got this sketch of the “original” Killmonger from the pages of Jungle Action. I’ll probably get the MBJ version down the line.

[Dee]

‘Black Panther’ Passes ‘Jurassic World’ Domestically And ‘Frozen’ Globally

Quote

Black Panther continues its climb up the box office charts. The Disney/Marvel superhero film has officially now crossed two big box office milestones: Domestically, with a box office tally of $652.5M, it officially surpassed Jurassic World ($652.3M) to become the No. 4 movie of all-time. And, globally it passed Frozen’s $1,276.5M to step into the Top Ten movies of all time. It has grossed $1.279.2M to date. And with $626.7M under its belt internationally, it is also the highest grossing superhero film that features a solo superhero.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Dee

[Apprentice79]

18 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Another inspiration they could have used is 25 Verde in Turin

https://www.boredpanda.com/urban-treehouse-green-architecture-25-verde-luciano-pia-turin-italy/

Especially if the concept of a green building is mixed with traditional vernacular architecture styles.

http://www.africavernaculararchitecture.com

Or just the best examples of organic architecture

https://ecofriend.com/stunning-examples-organic-architecture.html

I know that some people will think this is off topic discussion of architecture, but there is a lot of great detail about Wakanda given in good production and costume design and Wakanda very much is a character. I loved learning that the traditional blankets that the Border tribe wore also operated as energy shields and that kimoyo beads had a purpose beyond decorations. That's what the architecture could do too. Mixing green, organic, and traditional styles could demonstrate their respect of their history, a respect for nature, and a willingness to innovate.

Yeah, there was some graffiti in the one street in Wakanda.

There is a rumor that we were supposed to see more of Wakanda and it's people, We were supposed to see T'Challa and Nakia go jogging and meet her parents, but, there were budgetary concerns about doing too much.  If only they knew that the film was going to be such a megahit.. We were also supposed to see T'Challa interact his people and the love that they had for their king.. There is a scene in one of the trailers with T'Challa interacting with a Wakandan kid and Nakia is smiling seeing this.  I would have loved to have seen that.

I hope in the next movie, we see more of Wakanda and it's people.

I also want to see T'Challa use his other powers. He has night vision like a cat and his senses are very advanced.  He has stamina, durability and healing powers. He has a connection to Bast, the Panther deity.  He also possesses the knowledge and strength of the past Black Panthers. He is also a genius in his own right and has invented lots of stuff, as well.  Being King, he is super wealthy..

Upon rewatching the movie, I noticed that when T'Challa returns to the throne room to retake his rightful place, after defeating Killmonger. M'Baku was there in W'Baki's place.  T'Challa has reunited all of the 5 tribes under his rule. Something no other king has ever done.. I think that there will be fallout for W'Baki's betrayal..

Edited April 4, 2018 by Apprentice79

[JustaPerson]

42 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Upon rewatching the movie, I noticed that when T'Challa returns to the throne room to retake his rightful place, after defeating Killmonger. M'Baku was there in W'Baki's place.  T'Challa has reunited all of the 5 tribes under his rule. Something no other king has ever done.. I think that there will be fallout for W'Baki's betrayal..

Yea you can still see the tribal elder from W'Baki's tribe who was also at the trial by combat with W'Baki but M'Baku takes W'Baki's seat by the end. 

[Apprentice79]

5 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Yea you can still see the tribal elder from W'Baki's tribe who was also at the trial by combat with W'Baki but M'Baku takes W'Baki's seat by the end. 

He led the border tribe against their king.  Once T'Challa came back, he was still the king, according to their rules.  He should have fought alongside the Dora milaje to protect and defend his king. 

[Katsullivan]

18 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

Yea you can still see the tribal elder from W'Baki's tribe who was also at the trial by combat with W'Baki but M'Baku takes W'Baki's seat by the end. 

The part that confuses me is why W'kabi had that seat in the first place. On Challenge Day you can see that each tribe was represented by two people - an elderly Chief/Leader and a young champion. e.g. for the Water Tribe, Nakia was the Champion and the Elder with the lip-disc was the Tribe Leader. W'kabi was the Challenger for the Border Tribe but there was also an elderly Chief beside him. He seats on the King's Council and that's the same for every other Tribe except the Border Tribe. 

I head-wanked that W'kabi was not the actual Border leader but he's clearly the leader's proxy and almost certainly the heir to the Tribe, and he has enough authority to speak on behalf of the Chief (or so much influence that it comes down to the same thing). Of course, it's possible that each Tribe have unique leadership styles and whoever represents the Border Tribe on the King's Council doesn't necessarily have to be the Border Tribe Leader. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Katsullivan
mixed up names

[HunterHunted]

Danny Sapani played the Border Tribe Elder.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

The part that confuses me is why M'Baku had that seat in the first place. On Challenge Day you can see that each tribe was represented by two people - an elderly Chief/Leader and a young champion. e.g. for the Water Tribe, Nakia was the Champion and the Elder with the lip-disc was the Tribe Leader. M'Baku was the Challenger for the Border Tribe but there was also an elderly Chief beside him. He seats on the King's Council and that's the same for every other Tribe except the Border Tribe. 

I head-wanked that M'Baku was not the actual Border leader but he's clearly the leader's proxy and almost certainly the heir to the Tribe, and he has enough authority to speak on behalf of the Chief (or so much influence that it comes down to the same thing). Of course, it's possible that each Tribe have unique leadership styles and whoever represents the Border Tribe on the King's Council doesn't necessarily have to be the Border Tribe Leader. 

I think you mean W'Kabi when you're typing M'Baku?

Your theory makes sense, we know that T'Chaka had already passed the role of Black Panther on to T'Challa while remaining King so it's probable that the same thing happened with W'Kabi and made him leader of the security forces, which would naturally place him on the Council.

The other option I see is that he is the tribal leader and the elder is an advisor, this makes some sense as we know that W'Kabi's parents were killed in Klaue's attack, so if one of them was the tribal leader at the time then W'Kabi could have inherited the role when he was quite young.

[Apprentice79]

I wonder how the events of  infinity war will affect Wakanda and it's people. I know that it is a monarchy and the people have no say in their country.  T'Challa is opening up Wakanda's borders  in order to help the world, by letting outsiders into the country. What if that pushes the Wakandan people to grow dissatisfied with his rule and they began to assert themselves in wanting more of a democracy.  How would T'Challa react to that. He is opening up a can of worms by opening the borders like that. Change takes time and not everybody will agree with open borders.  This is a country that has been a closed society, for centuries.  

[anna0852]

 I don't think we can assume that opening the borders is what's going to lead to the conflict in Infinity Wars. Simply because the Wakandans method of keeping their borders closed probably isn't going to keep Thanos out. The fight is probably going to go down there simply because that's where the bad guys landed. There is a huge difference between Thanos getting in and refugees from a neighboring country. And if his countrymen started advocating for more democratic government than I can see to T'Challa being fine with that. He certainly doesn't seem to be the type To hold onto his power at all costs.

[Dee]

I think being of royal blood is a requirement for being in The King's inner circle; in which case, W'Kabi and Nakia both fit the bill.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think you mean W'Kabi when you're typing M'Baku?

 

Yikes! Thanks for correcting that. 

 

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The other option I see is that he is the tribal leader and the elder is an advisor, this makes some sense as we know that W'Kabi's parents were killed in Klaue's attack, so if one of them was the tribal leader at the time then W'Kabi could have inherited the role when he was quite young.

That is an excellent point. 

 

35 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

What if that pushes the Wakandan people to grow dissatisfied with his rule and they began to assert themselves in wanting more of a democracy. 

But technically, Wakanda has a pseudo-democracy - the King can always be ousted via the Challenge. Killmonger apparently had a right to arbituarily challenge T'Challa without ceremony simply for being royal blood and it's possible the same right extends to the other Tribe. The Challenge will need to be vetted via the Tribe's leadership because it seems the Leader is the one who actually declares the Challenge on behalf of the contender... But is that much different from party elections and primaries and state primaries in a country like the US? 

So if anyone isn't happy with T'Challa's decisions then they can change the King without changing the system of government.

Plus I'm not sure Wakanda is an absolute monarchy. Killmonger seemed to need the buy-in of the Council before declaring World War III. 

(In fact you can argue that if T'Challa wasn't such a stickler for rules, the second Challenge would never have held because the Council were not unanimously for it. So how absolute the monarchy seems to rely on how absolutely he is supported by the Council.)

[Apprentice79]

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Yikes! Thanks for correcting that. 

 

That is an excellent point. 

 

But technically, Wakanda has a pseudo-democracy - the King can always be ousted via the Challenge. Killmonger apparently had a right to arbituarily challenge T'Challa without ceremony simply for being royal blood and it's possible the same right extends to the other Tribe. The Challenge will need to be vetted via the Tribe's leadership because it seems the Leader is the one who actually declares the Challenge on behalf of the contender... But is that much different from party elections and primaries and state primaries in a country like the US? 

So if anyone isn't happy with T'Challa's decisions then they can change the King without changing the system of government.

Plus I'm not sure Wakanda is an absolute monarchy. Killmonger seemed to need the buy-in of the Council before declaring World War III. 

Killmonger destroying the herb made T'Challa, the absolute ruler of Wakanda.  Even though, he wanted that title for himself.  Nobody will be able to challenge T'Challa for the throne. He is too powerful..

Killmonger was not asking the council permission for anything. He was telling them what he was going to do with their vibranium. They all looked scared to contradict him, given how he murdered Zuri in front of everybody.   He would not hesitate to do that to them. That is what dictators to do to keep people in line.  

Edited April 4, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Katsullivan]

4 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Killmonger destroying the herb made T'Challa, the absolute ruler of Wakanda.  Even though, he wanted that title for himself.  Nobody will be able to challenge T'Challa for the throne. He is too powerful..

 

He's de-powered before the Challenge.

Unless you mean, that now T'Challa refused a Challenge because there's no threat that someone else can be sneaked a herb and become a rival? 

 

6 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Killmonger was not asking the council permission for anything. He was telling them what he was going to do with their vibranium. They all looked scared to contradict him, given how he murdered Zuri in front of everybody.   He would not hesitate to do that to them. That is what dictators to do to keep people in line.  

I think the Council were scared of Killmonger --- but he was also saying things that some of them agreed with / got convinced by and that's why World War III happened. 

Dictatorships are more complicated than that. They foster well in corrupt countries because the "Rule of the Bully" exists in every niche of government. 

If anything, you can argue how Wakanda is a good example of how a "Righteous" country can easily fall prey to a Mad man because people are too busy trying to do the Right thing than the Smart thing. Think Okoye vs Nakia's argument about serving vs saving Wakanda. Killmonger showed up and he got the Challenge by right even though smart thinking would have told anyone that a man with an obvious chip on his solider who had never lived a day in his life in Wakanda should never be allowed anywhere near rulership. Okoye and the rest of the Dora Milage stayed loyal to him because he was King, even though the smart thing was to have opposed him. 

However, I seriously doubt if the Council had been unanimously against Invasion that Killmonger could have done it. 

The very existence of the Jobari, living apart from Wakanda - it's telling that they call their leader King, not Chief or Leader or something more humble - and yet still being a part of Wakanda - is an indication that the King only has power because he's been given power by the Tribes. 

[Dee]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Killmonger showed up and he got the Challenge by right even though smart thinking would have told anyone that a man with an obvious chip on his solider who had never lived a day in his life in Wakanda should never be allowed anywhere near rulership.

Why shouldn't Killmonger's initial request have been honored?

It wasn't his fault that he didn't grow up in Wakanda, neither was the sordid circumstances surrounding his continued existence.

That's on Zuri & the royal family, T'Challa & Ramonda included.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Dee

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

He's de-powered before the Challenge.

Unless you mean, that now T'Challa refused a Challenge because there's no threat that someone else can be sneaked a herb and become a rival? 

I think it means you can't have challenges any more. The king loses his power for the challenge then if he wins he gets it back with some more herb. But the herb is gone, so if you take away the king's powers he can never get it back.

[Katsullivan]

52 minutes ago, Dee said:

Why should Killmonger's initial request have been honored?

It wasn't his fault that he didn't grow up in Wakanda, neither was the sordid circumstances surrounding his continued existence.

That's on Zuri & the royal family, T'Challa & Ramonda included.

 

Are you asking why should his initial request have not been honored?

Yes, it's not his fault that he didn't grow up in Wakanda... but the people of Wakanda shouldn't have to pay for it. He might be a royal prince, but to all intents and purposes, he's a stranger and a foreigner.

What if it was no one in Wakanda's fault that Killmonger had grown up in the US? What if the CIA or the KGB or some other foreign government had kidnapped Prince N'jobu's son and raised him as a pawn to use against Wakanda?

Edited April 4, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Dee]

18 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well, it's not his fault that he didn't grow up in Wakanda... but the people of Wakanda shouldn't have to pay for it.

The people of Wakanda do have to pay for it. It was their beloved king who committed highly questionable acts, under a veil of intense secrecy who then lied for years.

Lies which the remaining members of the royal family were happy to perpetuate until they could no longer defend the indefensible.

The CIA/KGB/Mossad didn't kidnap Killmonger though. His abandonment was a deliberate decision which gives him a legitimate axe to grind.

His subsequent behavior was atrocious, but his initial demands weren't unreasonable.

[Apprentice79]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think it means you can't have challenges any more. The king loses his power for the challenge then if he wins he gets it back with some more herb. But the herb is gone, so if you take away the king's powers he can never get it back.

That means that T'Challa could never be challenge again by a Wakadan. Unless, that Wakadan gets powers to counter his Black Panther powers that are many. The movie did not show those powers, but, he is very powerful..

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think it means you can't have challenges any more. The king loses his power for the challenge then if he wins he gets it back with some more herb. But the herb is gone, so if you take away the king's powers he can never get it back.

Dammit, Killmonger.

I really hope that it's revealed that the herb can be regrown because this would be really horrible. (Not the Challenge bit, but just the extinction of the Herb).

[Apprentice79]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Dammit, Killmonger.

I really hope that it's revealed that the herb can be regrown because this would be really horrible. (Not the Challenge bit, but just the extinction of the Herb).

Exactly. I think that the writers did not want T'Challa to have another potential challenger from Wakanda.  The next villain will probably come from the world in the next movie.

[Captain Carrot]

12 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I really hope that it's revealed that the herb can be regrown because this would be really horrible. (Not the Challenge bit, but just the extinction of the Herb).

He told them to burn the grove, but the next movie could reveal that there were seeds kept at a separate site in case of a disaster at the grove. And those were left alone. After all, sometimes people with little power rebel by being extremely literal, then defend themselves by saying that they did exactly what you told them to do.

[Katsullivan]

28 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

After all, sometimes people with little power rebel by being extremely literal, then defend themselves by saying that they did exactly what you told them to do.

He he. Malicious Compliance. :)

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Dammit, Killmonger.

I really hope that it's revealed that the herb can be regrown because this would be really horrible. (Not the Challenge bit, but just the extinction of the Herb).

This is why I was saying  earlier that burning the heart-shaped herb is actually one of Killmonger's most monstrous acts. He purposely and strategically destroys a significant aspect of Wakandan culture. It's doubly disturbing with Killmonger because he knows the extent to which slavers in the new world worked to destroy African culture among slaves.

[Apprentice79]

28 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

This is why I was saying  earlier that burning the heart-shaped herb is actually one of Killmonger's most monstrous acts. He purposely and strategically destroys a significant aspect of Wakandan culture. It's doubly disturbing with Killmonger because he knows the extent to which slavers in the new world worked to destroy African culture among slaves.

He was not thinking about the cultural aspect of the herb and it's legacy to Wakanda. It was about securing his absolute power, as King. The herb is a threat that somebody could challenge him, one day, for the throne.   He is not stupid. He was expecting T'challa to do the honorable thing and accept his challenge. Killmonger was very strategic in taking down T'Challa.  T'Challa could have refused the challenge for several weeks and plot to take out Killmonger, but, he felt so guilty about what had happened to him.  He gave in, to right, his father's wrong.  Being demoralized and disillusioned about his dad's secret, being stripped of his powers  twice, took a toll on him, physically, Zuri's murder and Killmonger's murderous rage defeated him..

[ChelseaNH]

21 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I know that it is a monarchy and the people have no say in their country. 

Great Britain is a monarchy.  Do the people there have no say in their government?

Granted, Wakanda has a stronger monarchy than Britain, but that doesn't rule out all forms of representation.

[Dandesun]

4 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Great Britain is a monarchy.  Do the people there have no say in their government?

Granted, Wakanda has a stronger monarchy than Britain, but that doesn't rule out all forms of representation.

When it was an absolute monarchy the people did NOT have any say in the government. Great Britain is no longer an absolute monarchy and hasn't been for a very very long time. The Queen does not make the laws. She's a figurehead at best and her position is ceremonial. So that's not the best example.

Wakanda appeared to be far closer to an absolute monarchy despite the existence of a council of advisors. It's still the King who decides that Wakanda will do. King T'Chaka decided that Wakanda would start to be a part of the world again, King T'Challa decided to continue that... and King Eric decided to ship weapons to the war dogs. There was no vote for any of these from what we've seen. The king may be given advice against his wishes but it still lands on him to make that decision.

[ChelseaNH]

16 hours ago, Dandesun said:

When it was an absolute monarchy the people did NOT have any say in the government.

The point is, there's more than one flavor of monarchy.  Does Wakanda have a legislative or judicial branch?  We don't know.  There's also more than one layer of government.  We don't know how Wakanda is structured between the town/city level and the national level; it could be county/state or it could be organized by tribe.

When the US was established, the convention was that only white, male property owners could vote.  (It's just that land was so readily available in America, the proportion of the population that could vote was substantially higher.)  Is that more or less representative than, say, a monarchy where every adult can vote for a king's council member?