Season 7

[shron17]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

Oh and while I'm on the subject, Lorleai's 'apology' doesn't even make sense. If her and Luke were over the moment she walked away from him in 'Partings' (as she and a lot of fans see it), then whatever she did after had nothing to do with their relationship.

I would have much rather seen Lorelai apologize for the ultimatum, and take responsibility for the fact that she ended their relationship without giving Luke a chance.  

14 hours ago, cailinoBAC said:

But....it would have been nice if we'd got some indication later on that they had actually tried out again and it was ok.

I was satisfied with the scene where they talked about how they were both scared about having a baby and then started kissing.

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

I would have much rather seen Lorelai apologize for the ultimatum, and take responsibility for the fact that she ended their relationship without giving Luke a chance.  

I was satisfied with the scene where they talked about how they were both scared about having a baby and then started kissing.

I don't remember them talking about being scared of having a baby and kissing...when was that?

[shron17]

Near the end of Lorelai's First Cotillion:

Quote

ZACH: So, you're not all psyched about being knocked up?
LANE: Are you kidding? This baby sucks!
ZACH: Yeah! This baby totally sucks!
LANE: It does.
ZACH: It so does.
LANE: Do you know what afterbirth is?
ZACH: No. [Lane shows him a picture] Dude.
LANE: I know.
ZACH: You know how the baby is connected to you by that hose and I'm supposed to cut that hose? No way I'm cutting that hose.
LANE: No way I'm letting you in the room when that thing comes out of me.
ZACH: Oh, man, you are so awesome. I love you so much.
LANE: I love you, too.
[They hug and kiss]

[FictionLover]

Sorry, your first comment was about L&L and I thought you were referring to them.  I agree, that was a sweet moment.

7 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Near the end of Lorelai's First Cotillion:

[Smad]

7 hours ago, shron17 said:

I would have much rather seen Lorelai apologize for the ultimatum, and take responsibility for the fact that she ended their relationship without giving Luke a chance.

IMO the apology (and the subsequent episodes) just proved that Lorelai had learned absolutely nothing from her supposed 'journey'. Not apologizing for the ultimatum means she still thought that was the right thing to do. That she didn't think not saying anything for months, never telling Luke how she really felt while stewing silently was also wrong on her end. And then of course in the Finale where she was done with Luke because he didn't give her the sign that she desired. Instead of having learnt to have the guts to approach the guy for once instead of him having to always make the first move. In hers and Luke's case this needed to happen because she was the one who uttered the ultimatum, she was the one who slept with and married the guy who was nothing but a thorn in the L/L relationship (not to mention humiliated Luke in WBB) and Luke had no idea who ended the marriage or why it ended. Not to mention that I can't believe Lorelai was stupid not to get that Luke was right there when she said the song didn't mean anything.

Was her whole journey really only limited to getting Chris out of her system and that's it? What a pathetic excuse of a storyline then. Since I happen to be one of those people who saw the end of L/C at the end of S2 (due to me seeing no romantic feelings on her end after that). So the whole L/C storyline was even more worthless than it already was. And in a Season where the producers/writers were so careful to humanize most characters again and managed to give Luke a great growth arc. That's all we are supposed to take away from Lorelai's?

Edited September 27, 2016 by Smad

[Lady Calypso]

So, I started back up on my season seven rewatch, after taking a couple of weeks after the first four episodes. There's a lot more pausing and breaks taken during the episodes, that's for sure. 

The Big Stink 

It's just...not good as an episode. This is the episode where I think Lorelai is really cracking with her relationship with Christopher, which surprises me when they do get married to an extent. Her issues with Sherry and Gigi are subtly planted there. Sure, Christopher should be going with Gigi at least for a couple of weeks to make sure her and Sherry are ok, but the way Lorelai handles it is kind of bad. She still doesn't put blame on Christopher for being an awful dad to Rory and waves his absence from them off as "just a kid" even though he didn't even have a stable job until he was in his early thirties. 

It also will never make sense as to why Emily/Richard were gunning so hard for Lorelai/Christopher, especially given their "rebellious" history. 

Rory's insecurity with Logan's new life is prominent, but I'm starting to get really, really bored of her story. I found myself really enjoying Logan, especially with what happens in later episodes. But yeah, the way Logan handles situations with Rory when it comes to other women are not great. He doesn't seem to grasp the serious aspects of jealousy. First, with the bridesmaids and downplaying his involvement with them during their break, and now the whole Bobbi situation. And I liked Logan's coworkers a lot. I liked seeing Logan very happy and comfortable with them. It's just that him handling the situation this episode was very poor but I also just didn't care about Rory's stink eye at Bobbi, who was being very nice to her and gave her no reason to be jealous. Maybe if Logan had told Rory about Bobbi being a female sooner, and if he had warned her that they'd be joining them for dinner even though Logan can have dinner with his London coworkers anytime, it would be better. 

Go Bulldogs!

Yeah, this is definitely my least favourite episode of the series. I don't know if one person came off as usually likable for me. Plus, a lot of it just didn't make sense. Oh yeah, parents will just introduce themselves as so-and-so's parents, as if the school is only filled with 100 students. 

What, did Lorelai and Rory not stay in France that long when they went after Rory's graduation? I'm not sure why Lorelai was acting like she had never been, even though some of the dialogue seemed to be canon. 

Lorelai never wants to do anything when it comes to Rory's school. It's really stupid at this point. Even my parents tried to get somewhat involved when I went to university, although there wasn't much they could get involved in. It's just worse when Lorelai is super close with Rory, so you'd think that she would want to get to know her daughter's lifestyle. Yet, she seems mostly disinterested and is only there as a supportive best friend to Rory and whatever she wants. It's very typical of her, though, so it's not surprising. And, of course, Christopher had to convince Lorelai to go. The guy who never wanted anything to do with Rory and her life! Maybe they are a perfect match! 

This is why I could never fully hate Christopher. It's not just him that's the problem, but everyone else who enable him! Lorelai, Emily, and Richard all make him seem like a good saintly dad and they never, ever call him out. If he was called out more, then my opinion would change, even with David Sutcliffe's very charming performance as Christopher. This episode, him desperately trying to be Rory's dad and trying to invite all her "friends" places was just so endearing; with any other actor, it wouldn't have worked as well.

Man, Lorelai is at her worst this episode. With her dumb "nerd alert" scene to her snippy attitude toward Emily and Richard being involved with Rory, she just becomes an incredibly selfish person, more so than she usually is.  

Sookie's also annoying with her "I'm the co-owner and I can do everything Lorelai does" attitude toward Michel. This is one of the rare times that Sookie actually remembers that she's supposed to be helping to manage and run the inn with Lorelai instead of being just the head chef. Michel's attitude would get on my nerves too. 

It seems like Rory's at her best without Logan around, which is really sad. She's really a take-charge woman this episode. It seems like I like her better when she doesn't have the bangs, which seem to disappear every few episodes. 

April is already calling Luke "Dad". That's quick. I didn't care for Luke/April's swimming story at all. The only aspect of Luke I enjoyed was him telling Kirk that he's an idiot for wanting to break up with Lulu and he'll kick his ass if he does. 

French Twist 

Oh boy. There's a lot I can say about this episode. 

What's interesting is that when it comes to Lorelai's elopements, Rory's never even thought about when it comes to being there. Not when Lorelai wanted to run off with Luke, and she barely considered it this time. She jumped in because of fear? I just really thought it was a bad idea for them to get married. I swear they just did it because they were in France. Christopher definitely shouldn't have pushed, but I guess in his eyes, they've been on and off for 25 years, so he thinks it's plenty of time. Definitely delusional, but Lorelai didn't have to say yes. That's all on her. The fact that she did goes to show how unready she is to be in any type of relationship. She wants to believe that her and Christopher are right for each other, but her fear of being alone got in the way of letting them date for longer than a few months and figuring it all out. She never could shut down Christopher's delusions, though, even when she didn't agree. 

What's also interesting is that Lorelai is "charmed" by Christopher's wealth as he uses it to get what he wants. Before, neither of them wanted anything to do with the rich lifestyle. Lorelai had been adamantly against it her entire life. And now, she finds it romantic and sweet. 

Why do we need Lucy and Olivia when we have Rory's Newspaper friends? I would have loved to see more of them and less of these two random characters. I think Rory's breakdown over the realization that college is ending would have worked better with someone like Joni or Raj, or even Paris. But her breaking down with two characters that nobody cares about? 

And look, the return of Marty. I don't get why he lied, but whatever. His return made little sense to begin with. 

I don't like the Lane/Zach twin storyline, but Mrs. Kim's enthusiasm was very sweet. 

Also, did Lorelai/Christopher only go to France for three days? 

Introducing Lorelai Planetarium

Man, Christopher was in such bliss while Lorelai was clearly regretting all her actions. 

Rory's jealousy of Bobbi is officially irritating. It's giving me Shane-vibes, and I hated it back in season 3, and I hate it now. I also just remembered that Rory's not even paying rent, so she's fairly lucky. Granted, I had my parents paying for most of my tuition and rent during my four years, but Rory still acts like she's some poor girl, which shows in her fight with Logan. I was totally on Logan's side there. But it did remind me of the old Rory, before she entered her grandparents' world in season 5, so that was interesting to see. But we've already seen that she can be mean in pieces. I don't know why we're getting Revelation 2.0. I guess Logan's upset when the mean articles are about him. 

I did enjoy Rory's anger at her parents. She has every right to not be happy. And especially with Christopher moving in and changing up Rory's room, it definitely makes sense that Rory's more mad at her mom. I'm just disappointed that it's more about Rory not being there. 

Oh boy with the Luke/April storyline. April is definitely a teenager now, with her attitude, but I can see why she accepted Luke so quickly as a dad before realizing what that would entail. But of course, Luke calls Lorelai for advice when she's sick, but does he even thank her? It's nice that he didn't hesitate before calling her, but....I guess he couldn't have paused and thought about how badly their relationship ended? Luke seeing Lorelai's wedding ring had to have sucked for the both of them. It was only a few seconds of the scene, but it was a surprisingly powerful moment. 

[Smad]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I did enjoy Rory's anger at her parents. She has every right to not be happy. And especially with Christopher moving in and changing up Rory's room, it definitely makes sense that Rory's more mad at her mom. I'm just disappointed that it's more about Rory not being there.

Rory made no sense this Season in regards to her parents relationship. First she's angry that her mom slept with him, then she's all smiles in the backseat of the car, then she is pissed when her parents got married. And after it's over she is all 'I always knew it wasn't right'. *confused face*

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

Rory made no sense this Season in regards to her parents relationship. First she's angry that her mom slept with him, then she's all smiles in the backseat of the car, then she is pissed when her parents got married. And after it's over she is all 'I always knew it wasn't right'. *confused face*

They seem to have trouble committing Rory to anything this season, to be honest. She's constantly changing her mind about every little thing. But in regards to her parents, I wish they let her be angry. I wish she didn't have lines like "I'm glad you and Dad got married. It's every girl's dream" because that sounds ridiculous in itself. I also wish she wasn't walking on eggshells around her own father in terms of her feelings. I wish she could just get mad at both of them. 

[Smad]

Just now, Lady Calypso said:

They seem to have trouble committing Rory to anything this season, to be honest. She's constantly changing her mind about every little thing. But in regards to her parents, I wish they let her be angry. I wish she didn't have lines like "I'm glad you and Dad got married. It's every girl's dream" because that sounds ridiculous in itself. I also wish she wasn't walking on eggshells around her own father in terms of her feelings. I wish she could just get mad at both of them. 

But...but..."It's Christopher."

Quote

Oh boy with the Luke/April storyline. April is definitely a teenager now, with her attitude, but I can see why she accepted Luke so quickly as a dad before realizing what that would entail. But of course, Luke calls Lorelai for advice when she's sick, but does he even thank her? It's nice that he didn't hesitate before calling her, but....I guess he couldn't have paused and thought about how badly their relationship ended? Luke seeing Lorelai's wedding ring had to have sucked for the both of them. It was only a few seconds of the scene, but it was a surprisingly powerful moment. 

You know this has never bothered me. Considering how many times Lorelai hasn't thanked Luke for something he did. Or how she would impose herself on him even when they were on the outs (see Mimi rant). Same rules apply for both IMO.

[Melancholy]

I feel like Rory's character was manipulated to serve some suspense in the plot for Lorelai when it came to weighing on the marriage to Christopher. I think the writers wanted to connote some little warning signs about how Lorelai/Chris was a bad idea but, at least at the beginning, give the marriage some appearance of credibility so the audience could be stuck wondering if this really was the end-game. Having Rory come out really strongly against the marriage would have made it clear that it was a bad idea. If even the kid doesn't like the "parents get married" idea, it's a wrong move. However, really, having a quickie marriage in France while the relationship is still a rebound IS a bad idea. So, Rory got to only be mad that she wasn't a part of the wedding. 

I'm pro-Luke and anti-Chris so I do carry my biases. However, I'm pretty damn committed to believing that Rory did disapprove of the marriage full-stop but she didn't want to hurt Lorelai by vehemently objecting to what should be permanent life choice. However, Rory signaled her disapproval of the whole marriage with her company manners and acting fine with everything while Chris was in the room but only exploding into angry silence in front of Lorelai because Chris really isn't her family emotionally. I also think it's interesting that Rory sort of outright went up against Lorelai at the grandparents- Rory criticizing Lorelai for the voicemail announcement of her marriage, Rory asking for the marriage to be a big Emily Gilmore production when Lorelai said she didn't want it. Usually, Rory keeps silent at the grandparent's house but only voices her agreement with them and disagreement with Lorelai to Lorelai because she's on Lorelai's side first and foremost. It's a big storyline when she breaks that pattern. I think there was some passive aggressive "I'm upset that you married Chris in yet another display of your dysfunctional relationship. If this is the pattern-breaking commitment that will end the dysfunctionality, you better prove it to me in the biggest of ways like consenting to an Emily Gilmore-style wedding." 

Luke did thank Lorelai. 

LUKE: Okay. It was appendicitis, like you said. But she's okay. I mean the operation went really great. They got it out, no problem. And she’s gonna be fine. And I'm gonna be able to see her pretty soon.
LORELAI: Good, good.
LUKE: Yeah you didn't -- you know you didn't have to come, but thanks for coming.

That's enough thanks. Luke didn't thank her on the phone because Luke was in a rush to get April to the ER. So, Luke thanked Lorelai in the ER when his mind was ease that April was safe and recovering. 

I don't think April was unusually fast to call Luke "dad." How much time has it been since April found out that Luke was her father? Ten months? That's long enough to develop attachment and love to support April giving Luke his accurate title to her. Jane the Virgin is very similar to Gilmore Girls in a lot of ways. Spoiler hiding the rest for anyone who hasn't seen S1. 

Spoiler

Jane/Rogelio is similar to Luke/April. Mother lies to child about her father and keeps the child from the father. Father enters girl's life when she's older- pre-teen for April, college student for Jane. Father and daughter bond quickly. Jane got to calling Rogelio "dad" much faster than April did to Luke- even though Jane is older. Although, things operate faster on a telenovela schedule. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Melancholy

[shron17]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

Having Rory come out really strongly against the marriage would have made it clear that it was a bad idea. If even the kid doesn't like the "parents get married" idea, it's a wrong move. However, really, having a quickie marriage in France while the relationship is still a rebound IS a bad idea. So, Rory got to only be mad that she wasn't a part of the wedding. 

I agree, but also find it completely believable that after thinking it over Rory decided to downplay her anger to Lorelai because she wanted to support her mom in doing whatever made her happy.  At the time Lorelai thought marrying Christoper was the answer, and Rory telling her what a bad idea it was after the fact wouldn't have helped anyone.  I also agree that Rory sided with Emily about the party to get Lorelai to own up to her feelings.  In fact the heartbroken look on Rory's face as they played the Lorelai's message made me think she realized right then that Lorelai wasn't as happy with the marriage as she insisted.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I feel like Rory's character was manipulated to serve some suspense in the plot for Lorelai when it came to weighing on the marriage to Christopher. I think the writers wanted to connote some little warning signs about how Lorelai/Chris was a bad idea but, at least at the beginning, give the marriage some appearance of credibility so the audience could be stuck wondering if this really was the end-game. Having Rory come out really strongly against the marriage would have made it clear that it was a bad idea. If even the kid doesn't like the "parents get married" idea, it's a wrong move. However, really, having a quickie marriage in France while the relationship is still a rebound IS a bad idea. So, Rory got to only be mad that she wasn't a part of the wedding. 

I'm pro-Luke and anti-Chris so I do carry my biases. However, I'm pretty damn committed to believing that Rory did disapprove of the marriage full-stop but she didn't want to hurt Lorelai by vehemently objecting to what should be permanent life choice. However, Rory signaled her disapproval of the whole marriage with her company manners and acting fine with everything while Chris was in the room but only exploding into angry silence in front of Lorelai because Chris really isn't her family emotionally. I also think it's interesting that Rory sort of outright went up against Lorelai at the grandparents- Rory criticizing Lorelai for the voicemail announcement of her marriage, Rory asking for the marriage to be a big Emily Gilmore production when Lorelai said she didn't want it. Usually, Rory keeps silent at the grandparent's house but only voices her agreement with them and disagreement with Lorelai to Lorelai because she's on Lorelai's side first and foremost. It's a big storyline when she breaks that pattern. I think there was some passive aggressive "I'm upset that you married Chris in yet another display of your dysfunctional relationship. If this is the pattern-breaking commitment that will end the dysfunctionality, you better prove it to me in the biggest of ways like consenting to an Emily Gilmore-style wedding." 

I'm not sure I agree that it was that stark. I will state I'm not as anti-Chris as most here and have zero interest in Luke and Lorelai as a romantic couple; but this is not a defense of Chris as a romantic partner for Lorelai, much less their ill-advised marriage.  I don't think there was any attempt to disguise the utter lack of end-game for Chris and Lorelai.  And, in fact, the quick marriage which Lorelai seemed not terribly enthused about was, to my mind, an absolute nail in the coffin of any thoughts the audience might have had in that direction.  Chris's tone-deafness to Lorelai's absolute discomfort, Lorelai's failure to object on the one ground that would have made sense if she were head over heels (i.e. Rory's absence), and pretty much everything about how they got back together made the marriage an obviously bad idea with no hope of long term success.

I also don't think there was any real attempt to downplay Rory's concern; I just found it more complex than simply being against it.  My impression of Rory was less disapproval and more that she'd sort of been down this road with them before and it took a while to comeback from the season 2 mess.  I feel like her reaction was cautious in terms of "I love you both and this could hurt everyone."  

It seems likely that Rory would have had a childhood fantasy about her parents someday making it partly because for a long time it seemed to be Lorelai's hope.  But I think she was old enough and had seen enough of them to know that how they were going about it was destined to crash.  And that knowledge, that this would hurt two people she loved (and she did love her dad, even if he didn't occupy a real parental role in her life) and it was only a matter of time was her primary objection. Though I agree, she down played that aspect of her dismay because it was a fait accompli at that point and saying something wouldn't necessarily help.  

And I don't think it is untrue, on her own behalf, that her mom getting married without her there or even telling her first especially to her dad, did in fact hurt her.  That would more than be enough to explain the undercurrent of hurt when Emily played the message.  I do agree, though, that the message itself reinforced any concerns she had about the marriage on her parent's behalf.

I also think that, on her own behalf, she was upset with Lorelai because, as noted above, it took a while to sort out the mess from the last time Lorelai and Chris were planning to be together and it significantly affected her relationship with Chris which was, prior to the marriage, in a pretty good place. Because Rory would always side with Lorelai, this action was pretty selfish on Lorelai's part in that it seriously risked the finally relatively healthy dynamic she had at that point with her father.  

With regard to the hidden info:

Spoiler

I'm not sure how quickly Jane would have called Rogelio "Dad" if he a) had not literally insisted and b) been so bloodt charming and adorable about it.

[junienmomo]

Lorelai Planetarium

I'm watching it again for second time in my life, because your discussion is pretty interesting. My impressions:

• Lorelai is backpedaling against everything Chris wants from the moment they hit the Crap Shack. It's pretty clear she has regrets like crazy, although the specifics aren't known at this point in time
• Rory laid into her mother pretty hard. I admire her for the polite response until she was alone with her mother. It continued to sink into Lorelai that all is not well with her perfect family.
• Rory had a rough night because of the marriage. Even though Logan knew this, he pushed pretty hard in telling her the truth about her poor little rich girl attitude and the article. I would have wished that someone who loved me would find a better way to express that when he knew that she was already stressed, but we know Logan. That's not his style.
• I really don't like Vanessa Marano's acting. The turkey burger scene was a dud, and the juggling scene started better, but fell apart for me when the uber-science nerd didn't even try to prove that she didn't have a fever by, oh, perhaps a thermometer.
• I really, really miss Jess Mariano at this moment. Luke was a better dad to him
• Lorelai's outburst over the stolen T-shirt was funny on Lorelai's part, but kinda despicable on Chris'. 
• "I don't want Rory to think the rug is being pulled out from under her" I think Lorelai named the wrong Lorelai in that sentence. Now she wants time to adjust. Christopher sees this. Can you imagine, seeing your wife's inability to accept your marriage from the very first day?
• It could have been such a good lesson for Rory to realize she had given into sensationalism and needed to develop some journalistic integrity.
• Am I projecting, or does Lorelai look happiest in this episode when she's talking to Luke? At least until she breaks his heart with the ring.
• Sadly, Rory remains an idiot, not learning much. She could have had her dad pay for the apartment. Her new girlfriends would have convinced her if they'd known about it, because they're a little closer to reality.

Note: after this episode, I needed fluff, so I went back and watched the reconciliation episode Pulp Friction. Crazy good chemistry between Luke and Lorelai there. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by junienmomo
added Note.

[shron17]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

 My impression of Rory was less disapproval and more that she'd sort of been down this road with them before and it took a while to comeback from the season 2 mess.  I feel like her reaction was cautious in terms of "I love you both and this could hurt everyone."  

I agree with this.  Also, it occurred to me that telling Rory together automatically switched Lorelai from friend mode to parent mode which was probably a little jarring for Rory as well.

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

• I really, really miss Jess Mariano at this moment. Luke was a better dad to him

I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this will be, but I feel like Luke parenting April is very, very awkward and it makes me feel like he's a bit out of character. It feels like he's an entirely different character with all of his endearing nicknames ("sweetie"), which feels like he says to her ten times per scene, and his too loving relationship while he's outwardly cruel and gruff to everyone else. With Jess, he was still himself and still an excellent guardian/parent when Liz wasn't. It didn't feel like I jumped into an episode of Full House. It's not that he's a bad parent with April; I just never bought it in season 7. I know it's different that it's his kid, but it felt weird. 

22 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

• Rory had a rough night because of the marriage. Even though Logan knew this, he pushed pretty hard in telling her the truth about her poor little rich girl attitude and the article. I would have wished that someone who loved me would find a better way to express that when he knew that she was already stressed, but we know Logan. That's not his style.

I didn't really mind Logan confronting her about this, but he definitely needed to consider that she was upset about her mom's marriage. I do think he got that and he did apologize afterwards for being too harsh. He's definitely very impulsive, so that's a flaw on his own. But then again, I find myself liking Logan so far a lot more than I like Rory this season. I also think even without her mother's marriage weighing down on her, she still would have written the exact same article and he still would have gotten mad. 

24 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

• Am I projecting, or does Lorelai look happiest in this episode when she's talking to Luke? At least until she breaks his heart with the ring.

I got this impression too. I'm still working my way through the season slowly, but Lorelai seems a lot less happy and chipper with Christopher. She's kind of just moving through the motions but there is a disconnect from this Lorelai and the Lorelai we've seen in the first six seasons. Whether or not it was intentional on Lauren Graham's part is to be seen, but her conversations with Christopher hit the minimal amount of quirky for her, which is abnormal. I think it all stopped after Lorelai/Christopher had their first fight before they got married, with the whole Sherry thing. After that, it seemed like Lorelai was struggling to find reasons to be happy with him. 

[FictionLover]

I really liked the end of Lorelai Planetarium when Luke saw "Philidelphia Story" on the television.  I didn't know the meaning of the movie at the time so my take was the old movie on TV reminded him of her and now it really is too late for them. It was only time they showed him with a little regret. It seemed when he first saw her in the waiting room he had forgiven her.

[Smad]

10 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

I really liked the end of Lorelai Planetarium when Luke saw "Philidelphia Story" on the television.  I didn't know the meaning of the movie at the time so my take was the old movie on TV reminded him of her and now it really is too late for them. It was only time they showed him with a little regret. It seemed when he first saw her in the waiting room he had forgiven her.

IMO after the car crashed into the diner and we see Luke sitting there in literally the ruins of his life, that's when everything that happened fully registered with him. And once he saw Lorelai at the hospital with the ring on her finger and watching the movie, that's when Luke let go. It is what it is, after all. He let go of everything concerning Lorelai and decided he still has a life without her and that's what he's going to focus on. The rest of the Season seems to bear that out. On his end there is no pining (and I can't express how much I loved that), when he runs into her there is no weirdness. He simply moved on and decided to focus on what he does have. Which is why I so hate that he gets dragged back into a romance plot with Lorelai.

[emma675]

Quote

 I also wish she (Rory) wasn't walking on eggshells around her own father in terms of her feelings. I wish she could just get mad at both of them. 

I never understood why Rory and Lorelei always babied and protected Christopher and his feelings. I always got the impression that he was not physically in Rory's life nor supported her monetarily when she was growing up, although he and Rory may have visited occasionally . Why are they so protective and defensive of someone who was essentially a deadbeat dad? Yeah, he's a nice guy, but he was emotionally stunted and when things didn't go his way, he bolted. I've never hated Christopher more than I did when Richard was in the hospital after his heart attack and no one could find him. And then to show up and pitch a fit because Luke was there? Ugh.

Quote

I didn't really mind Logan confronting her about this, but he definitely needed to consider that she was upset about her mom's marriage. I do think he got that and he did apologize afterwards for being too harsh. He's definitely very impulsive, so that's a flaw on his own. But then again, I find myself liking Logan so far a lot more than I like Rory this season.

Logan was actually my favorite of Rory's boyfriends, but he had his moments of total stupidity (getting super drunk when he met Jess, comes to mind), but I like him ragging on Rory for that piece. I still remember her article on the Yale ballerina and how mean it was, so I can only imagine how tone deaf this piece was. But, I had a racy dream about Logan last night, so I may be biased today. 

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this will be, but I feel like Luke parenting April is very, very awkward and it makes me feel like he's a bit out of character. It feels like he's an entirely different character with all of his endearing nicknames ("sweetie"), which feels like he says to her ten times per scene, and his too loving relationship while he's outwardly cruel and gruff to everyone else. With Jess, he was still himself and still an excellent guardian/parent when Liz wasn't. It didn't feel like I jumped into an episode of Full House. It's not that he's a bad parent with April; I just never bought it in season 7. I know it's different that it's his kid, but it felt weird. 

First, I don't think Luke is cruel. Gruff? Sure. Hot-tempered? Absolutely. However, I think there's a malice and pre-meditated desire to hurt behind "cruel" that I find rather lacking in Luke. He's also not universally gruff with everyone. He gets mad at Liz but he generally comes into an interaction trying to be nice and gentle until she ticks him off. Ditto for Lorelai in her way. He's not gruff with Rory at all. He's not gruff with Richard and Emily. The old folks who owned the restaurant that he frequented. He doesn't warm to strangers quickly and he has a short-temper when irritated. However, Luke is very agreeable with people who he gets to know who aren't deliberately annoying or wronged him in some way. 

I think Luke has some sexist notions on how to parent girls v. boys. The gender difference and the fact that April was a model child and Jess was a punk accounted for Luke's different treatment more than April actually being his child. The benevolent sexism was foreshadowed in the "Luke sponsors the girl's soccer team" story. Luke actually started his relationship with Jess bent on being accommodating and kindly in a labored, slightly infantalizing way. "I've got frosted flakes." However, yes, Luke got pretty strict and sarcastic once it was clear that Jess was bent on being a hoodlum and that continued through Jess's hoodlum days. However, there is a difference in how Luke tried ingratiating himself with Jess and how he tried with April. It's partly because Luke was warned that Jess was a trouble-maker because of how Liz sent him. But also because Luke's instincts were to impose conventionally masculine expectations on Jess as good parenting. "Look, all he needs is to be around someone who's not a selfish basketcase, who will give him a little space, who will treat him like a man." With April, he clearly decided the opposite that he should parent by being extra close and affectionate and monitoring her. I think that's typical for a lot of men and I see a line from how Luke treated Rory to how he'd treat a Rory-like person who was also his daughter and younger than even S1 Rory.

RachelKM, I don't know what to say to your post other than to just say that my gut tells me that there WAS supposed to be some suspense that Christopher was the endgame guy. Their courtship was very romantic. Christopher was always a possibility for her endgame guy. It was always between Luke and Chris. The Lorelai/Chris marriage dragged on through much of the season, bringing up the possibility that maybe Lorelai WOULDN'T end up with Luke. I agree that Rory had reasons to keep her mouth shut because what's done was done. However, I do think that there was a writing choice to keep Rory's objections very limited and not delve into her feelings at her parents reconciling in the interest of preserving the suspense for Lorelai. Lorelai and Chris getting married is a huge thing for Rory. It's natural to write a storyline about the extent of Rory's feelings about the marriage and the separation. There was a choice to not do it, whether it's Rory getting mad at her parents or Rory really speaking convincingly about how they belonged together or Rory saying either thing to a friend or Logan. I think the origins of that choice lie in propping the "Luke or Chris or no one" conundrum as a question to only be resolved (somewhat) in the finale. 

Also on Jane the Virgin:

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong. However, I thought I remembered that Jane spontaneously called Rogelio "dad" because he did something impressive on his telenovela. I forget what. Then after Jane took the spontaneous "dad" step, she tried drifting back to call him by his first name and THEN, Rogelio adorably said "No, you said Dad. I'm Dad to you now." or something. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Melancholy

[Kohola3]

Quote

I've never hated Christopher more than I did when Richard was in the hospital after his heart attack and no one could find him. And then to show up and pitch a fit because Luke was there? Ugh.

I remember yelling at the TV during that scene.  And what was he, 13?  Not answering is phone in a snit.  Nice adult actions especially since has 2 daughters and an older mother, and older in-laws.  You don't do things like that as an adult.  You man (or woman) up and act like a mature individual instead of a petulant toddler.  "Lorelai doesn't like me, I'm not gonna talk to her ANY MORE.  So there!"

[Melancholy]

5 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

I remember yelling at the TV during that scene.  And what was he, 13?  Not answering is phone in a snit.  Nice adult actions especially since has 2 daughters and an older mother, and older in-laws.  You don't do things like that as an adult.  You man (or woman) up and act like a mature individual instead of a petulant toddler.  "Lorelai doesn't like me, I'm not gonna talk to her ANY MORE.  So there!"

Such an asshole move. Emily/Richard are so good to Christopher, actually TOO good, and he doesn't give a fig for them. However even if you argue that Chris had no obligation to Lorelai because they were in a fight or no obligation to the elder Gilmore because their cloying affection doesn't create an obligation from him (all of which I'd disagree with), his daughter just saw her grandfather have a heart-attack and she was in the hospital with him. Christopher had an obligation to Rory to reach out and talk to her. He didn't even bother to call Rory, even if he didn't want to talk to Lorelai or see Lorelai in the hospital. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Melancholy

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

First, I don't think Luke is cruel. Gruff? Sure. Hot-tempered? Absolutely. However, I think there's a malice and pre-meditated desire to hurt behind "cruel" that I find rather lacking in Luke. He's also not universally gruff with everyone. He gets mad at Liz but he generally comes into an interaction trying to be nice and gentle until she ticks him off. Ditto for Lorelai in her way. He's not gruff with Rory at all. He's not gruff with Richard and Emily. The old folks who owned the restaurant that he frequented. He doesn't warm to strangers quickly and he has a short-temper when irritated. However, Luke is very agreeable with people who he gets to know who aren't deliberately annoying or wronged him in some way. 

 

Cruel isn't the exact word I wanted to use. Hot-tempered is actually a much more accurate word for what I was going for! 

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I think Luke has some sexist notions on how to parent girls v. boys. The gender difference and the fact that April was a model child and Jess was a punk accounted for Luke's different treatment more than April actually being his child. The benevolent sexism was foreshadowed in the "Luke sponsors the girl's soccer team" story. Luke actually started his relationship with Jess bent on being accommodating and kindly in a labored, slightly infantalizing way. "I've got frosted flakes." However, yes, Luke got pretty strict and sarcastic once it was clear that Jess was bent on being a hoodlum and that continued through Jess's hoodlum days. However, there is a difference in how Luke tried ingratiating himself with Jess and how he tried with April. It's partly because Luke was warned that Jess was a trouble-maker because of how Liz sent him. But also because Luke's instincts were to impose conventionally masculine expectations on Jess as good parenting. "Look, all he needs is to be around someone who's not a selfish basketcase, who will give him a little space, who will treat him like a man." With April, he clearly decided the opposite that he should parent by being extra close and affectionate and monitoring her. I think that's typical for a lot of men and I see a line from how Luke treated Rory to how he'd treat a Rory-like person who was also his daughter and younger than even S1 Rory.

I totally agree. I still don't like it, that's for sure. It's still weird for me to watch. 

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

IMO after the car crashed into the diner and we see Luke sitting there in literally the ruins of his life, that's when everything that happened fully registered with him. And once he saw Lorelai at the hospital with the ring on her finger and watching the movie, that's when Luke let go. It is what it is, after all. He let go of everything concerning Lorelai and decided he still has a life without her and that's what he's going to focus on. The rest of the Season seems to bear that out. On his end there is no pining (and I can't express how much I loved that), when he runs into her there is no weirdness. He simply moved on and decided to focus on what he does have. Which is why I so hate that he gets dragged back into a romance plot with Lorelai.

Luke in season 7 got one of the few complete character arcs in GG, resulting in a transformation of his character. His world fell apart piece by piece in the first episodes, but I think he screen-wise hit bottom when Liz and TJ were spending the dark night at his apartment and they talked about him not being over Lorelai. I do see what you mean, though, when you say he decided during the appendix hospital scene to live his life without Lorelai. That didn't mean he didn't still love her, and somewhere along the way he pushed the love into a corner and reached the point of understanding that he liked making her happy even if she was not going to reciprocate.

The "he liked making her happy" part shouldn't be misconstrued as him being a doormat for her. Instead I think it really made him feel good to do stuff for someone else; in other words he was choosing to be her helpful friend for sure, but we saw later that he was also open to the possibility of more. 

Funny, as I write this, it occurs to me that if they didn't get back together, luke would be happier than Lorelai, since she got a very sucky incomplete arc, arguably almost no arc at all in season seven. 

Even though fanfic has dealt with the immediate post-series period a hundred times, I see one very reasonable take as being a) Lorelai wants something more with him, but isn't through her arc yet, while b) he's recently seen her erratic behavior like denying the karaoke and now knows enough to stay away from her until and unless she can come to him with some maturity. 

[cailinoBAC]

I kept thinking of similarities to Jane the Virgin while (re)watching Gilmore Girls and then noticed the showrunner was a writer/producer on season 7. I hope it hasn't put anybody off watching JtV!

[FictionLover]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

IMO after the car crashed into the diner and we see Luke sitting there in literally the ruins of his life, that's when everything that happened fully registered with him. And once he saw Lorelai at the hospital with the ring on her finger and watching the movie, that's when Luke let go. It is what it is, after all. He let go of everything concerning Lorelai and decided he still has a life without her and that's what he's going to focus on. The rest of the Season seems to bear that out. On his end there is no pining (and I can't express how much I loved that), when he runs into her there is no weirdness. He simply moved on and decided to focus on what he does have. Which is why I so hate that he gets dragged back into a romance plot with Lorelai.

That's a good point. I still think he looked hurt and initial realization of this was painful for him. But I was happy for the reunion. 

2 minutes ago, cailinoBAC said:

I kept thinking of similarities to Jane the Virgin while (re)watching Gilmore Girls and then noticed the showrunner was a writer/producer on season 7. I hope it hasn't put anybody off watching JtV!

He used the phrase "my first pancake" in jtv too.

[hippielamb]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this will be, but I feel like Luke parenting April is very, very awkward and it makes me feel like he's a bit out of character. It feels like he's an entirely different character with all of his endearing nicknames ("sweetie"), which feels like he says to her ten times per scene, and his too loving relationship while he's outwardly cruel and gruff to everyone else. With Jess, he was still himself and still an excellent guardian/parent when Liz wasn't. It didn't feel like I jumped into an episode of Full House. It's not that he's a bad parent with April; I just never bought it in season 7. I know it's different that it's his kid, but it felt weird.  

Ugh I hate that, it sounds so fake. I'm glad you commented on it. Most of the posts here are so pro-Luke I am hesitant to be critical of him but boy do his interactions with April feel off. 

3 hours ago, emma675 said:

 Yeah, he's a nice guy, but he was emotionally stunted and when things didn't go his way, he bolted. I've never hated Christopher more than I did when Richard was in the hospital after his heart attack and no one could find him. And then to show up and pitch a fit because Luke was there? Ugh.. 

I hated that Chris bolted after their fight and turned his phone off. However, I get why he was pissed at the hospital. His wife's ex-fiance shows up, a man who had punched him in the face. A man his wife wrote a secret sentimental character reference for even after he had hurt her in their relationship. It's no wonder that Chris wondered if Lorelai had called Luke. I don't like Chris' jealousy after they get married but Lorelai seemed to not even consider how her actions could be misinterpreted. I guess you could argue she has done the same in prior relationships but she's married at this point. 

[hippielamb]

The Great Stink

Logan's rooftop reunion with Rory was sweet. I laughed at their "work dork" conversation. And Lorelai's comment about next year having a pickle anniversary, very Stars Hollow. Richard's reaction at seeing Emily's mugshot is priceless.

Emily is so happy to have Lor and Chris at dinner, she was almost giddy when she opened the door, and the little back slap on Christopher. I really wish they could've explored how them being together would have effected the grandparents and their relationship with Lorelai.

The fight between Lorelai and Chris seems like a pointless fight to me but I guess they had to get them to Paris somehow. I like their body language on the couch after they make up and the scene of them in the car with Rory on the way home.

Go Bulldogs!

Funny to watch Chris try to be superdad. There were parts I cringed at because he was trying so hard. It's real though. My own dear dad was like that and I've seen it in other parents who were trying to make up for lost time, they come on too strong at times. I like that Lorelai doesn't focus on the past and instead looks ahead.

It's weird that Rory has never mentioned that her grandparents came to every parents weekend. I kinda like that they do that, and the special relationship she has with them. It's a nice thing. I liked Rory's smile at watching her parents leave and know that she got the best of them. I think she "won" parents weekend.

French Twist

Love it. Sorry Christopher haters but I find him very charming in this episode. Bribing a fancy restaurant to open sounds like something out of a movie. I can see why Lorelai was surprised and flattered by it. I loved their dinner (or early breakfast) conversation, also the talk on the street when they are reminiscing. I wish they hadn't dashed into marriage but it's believable given how impulsive they both are.

I like that Rory finally has college friends she can hang out with. I doubt she could hang out and discuss her fears with Paris. I really dislike the Marty storyline. I didn't like him back in seasons 4&5 and he's even worse now. I don't like the writers throwing some conflict in Rory's new friendships with Lucy and Olivia. It didn't need it.

[Smad]

34 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

I hated that Chris bolted after their fight and turned his phone off. However, I get why he was pissed at the hospital. His wife's ex-fiance shows up, a man who had punched him in the face. A man his wife wrote a secret sentimental character reference for even after he had hurt her in their relationship. It's no wonder that Chris wondered if Lorelai had called Luke. I don't like Chris' jealousy after they get married but Lorelai seemed to not even consider how her actions could be misinterpreted. I guess you could argue she has done the same in prior relationships but she's married at this point. 

And this is one of the reasons why I can't understand how anyone could be pro-L/C, beyond the 2 actors having chemistry and him being good looking. If Chris had at any point been a major part of Lorelai's life for the past 10 years (meaning S7 and backwards), then Luke being there should leave him as unfazed as it does Rory or as it would any SH citizen. But because he wasn't there, he has no grasp of the L/L bond which goes way beyond lovers. He wasn't there during 'Run Away Little Boy' when these two basically pledged to be there for the other for the rest of their lives (so to speak). And that was still there in S7 despite everything. But since Chris doesn't know and never cared to know what these 2 were to each other, it's no surprise that he throws a fit when Luke is there for Lorelai or vice versa.

[Kohola3]

Quote

And this is one of the reasons why I can't understand how anyone could be pro-L/C, beyond the 2 actors having chemistry and him being good looking. If Chris had at any point been a major part of Lorelai's life for the past 10 years (meaning S7 and backwards), then Luke being there should leave him as unfazed as it does Rory or as it would any SH citizen

He was a deadbeat Dad who is suddenly rich so he expects throwing money at problems will be the answer.  How charming would it have been for them to have to wait for a restaurant to open in Paris?  But Mr. Big Bucks goes the usual route and buys his way into impressing “Lor”.  Luke was something he couldn’t make go away with money so he wasn’t interested in taking into account the history of L&L.  He had no desire to know about  “Lor’s” life that he couldn’t buy his way into or out of.  It was all me, me, me.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

The fight between Lorelai and Chris seems like a pointless fight to me

I thought the fight was big blinking warning light that they should never try to be parents together because they wouldn't be able to agree on anything.  Chemistry or not, Lorelai and Luke had similar parenting beliefs in that they put their kid first.  Christopher didn't know how to do that--he was already planning the trips he and Lorelai could take while Gigi was in Paris and he was free.

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

French Twist

Love it. Sorry Christopher haters but I find him very charming in this episode.

I don't hate or love Christopher, but this episode didn't even feel like the same show to me.  The dialogue especially seemed very bad and mostly out of character.

Edited September 28, 2016 by shron17

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I hated that Chris bolted after their fight and turned his phone off. However, I get why he was pissed at the hospital. His wife's ex-fiance shows up, a man who had punched him in the face. A man his wife wrote a secret sentimental character reference for even after he had hurt her in their relationship. It's no wonder that Chris wondered if Lorelai had called Luke. I don't like Chris' jealousy after they get married but Lorelai seemed to not even consider how her actions could be misinterpreted. I guess you could argue she has done the same in prior relationships but she's married at this point. 

IMO, Chris had a obligation to put his jealousy or at least, his pissiness away because of the situation. Lorelai's father was in the hospital. When Chris was throwing his little tantrum, he didn't even know how Richard was doing. The dominant emotions should have been concern/sympathy for his family-  at this point, Lorelai and Rory and Richard and Emily. His inability to put aside the romantic intrigue jealousy in such a dire situation was unforgivable, IMO. He was the one who was unavailable in a family emergency. He doesn't stand on high enough ground to get righteously pissed. 

I actually think that Chris is correctly jealous of Luke. Yup, IMO, Lorelai married Chris on the rebound even though she was still in love with Luke. Chris is right to believe that their marriage is bullshit. It really was. However, Chris displays in moments like putting his jealousies over concern for his family or pressuring Lorelai into getting pregnant to salve his anxieties why he's right to be concerned that Lorelai will move on from him because he's a disaster beyond a facile banter session every once in awhile. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Melancholy

[junienmomo]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

He was a deadbeat Dad who is suddenly rich so he expects throwing money at problems will be the answer. 

 

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Bribing a fancy restaurant to open sounds like something out of a movie. I can see why Lorelai was surprised and flattered by it.

Money certainly worked for Christopher in that he married the woman he'd been trying to get for twenty years. 

Money was also important to Lorelai at this point because no character in the history of fiction has ever had a restaurant opened so often just to take care of her because the person who got it opened loved her. I'm still trying to recall a single unselfish thank you for one of those times. Or her being flattered by Luke's willingness to open for her.

Christopher's gesture wouldn't have influenced the Lorelai of earlier seasons. i gave up on the show during this period because we simply had not had the real Lorelai for over a season. I missed her.

[Taryn74]

44 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Money certainly worked for Christopher in that he married the woman he'd been trying to get for twenty years.

Snap!

[Smad]

Can someone explain to me why S7!Lorelai would even want Luke romantically? All we have heard from Lorelai regarding Luke this Season was a whole lot of dissing everything about him and not much else. How everything was his fault, how Chris is just so much fun and totally devoted to her, how Chris loves the big gestures and tells her he loves her, how Chris lets her into his daughter's life etc.. If Chris is so freaking awesome why end things with him? And if Luke is such crap why does she even want him?

Anyone?

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Can someone explain to me why S7!Lorelai would even want Luke romantically? All we have heard from Lorelai regarding Luke this Season was a whole lot of dissing everything about him and not much else. How everything was his fault, how Chris is just so much fun and totally devoted to her, how Chris loves the big gestures and tells her he loves her, how Chris lets her into his daughter's life etc.. If Chris is so freaking awesome why end things with him? And if Luke is such crap why does she even want him?

Anyone?

There isn't any compelling moment that made me believe that either of them felt it was worth pursuing the romantic side of their friendship. Luke had clearly adjusted to 'Lorelai as townie' instead of 'Lorelai as lover' and if memory serves, Lorelai did her best to not have anything to do with him or talk about him.

Why she wants Luke? Love is apparently the answer. Christopher called her on her feelings for Luke because of the character reference. She acknowledged it as truth, then he left, marriage over. TV convenience.

That was episode 14. They don't exchange apologies for another four episodes. Then Lorelai starts the asking Luke for favors stuff again and he starts the over-delivering (e.g. Jeep) again, followed by blue cap and the karaoke fiasco. One stinkin' word from Lorelai would have resolved the karaoke thing, but no, she left Luke believing "it didn't mean anything." He's now firmly back to the friends crap because she stood up in front of Hello Magazine and said it didn't mean anything.

Next thing you know we're at Bon Voyage and Lorelai is complaining that Luke never shows his feelings because well, you know, everyone just loves bending over backwards to get Lorelai in exactly the vehicle she loves and it's no big deal, and she's convinced they're over. Liz pipes up with her thoughts that Luke still loves Lorelai, but evidence for that? I don't see it.

Lorelai didn't develop any mature relationship behaviors at all, except for one time telling Christopher she was going to visit Luke in the hospital. Luke, on the other hand, had been changing himself like crazy. He's friendly to many more people, outgoing, even able to initiate and lead a town meeting and effort for Rory's party. 

I honestly don't understand why Improved!Luke would want Lorelai at this point. She doesn't give me the impression that she would be any better at a relationship with him or anyone.

[FictionLover]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

Can someone explain to me why S7!Lorelai would even want Luke romantically? All we have heard from Lorelai regarding Luke this Season was a whole lot of dissing everything about him and not much else. How everything was his fault, how Chris is just so much fun and totally devoted to her, how Chris loves the big gestures and tells her he loves her, how Chris lets her into his daughter's life etc.. If Chris is so freaking awesome why end things with him? And if Luke is such crap why does she even want him?

Anyone?

Denial pure and simple. Plus her over talking Christophers love for her and her loving him trying to convince everyone,  including herself, was obvious to me that Chris was not going to be the endgame. I remember my daughter saying that Lorelai didn't seem happy during those episodes either.

[RachelKM]

On 9/28/2016 at 11:26 AM, Melancholy said:

RachelKM, I don't know what to say to your post other than to just say that my gut tells me that there WAS supposed to be some suspense that Christopher was the endgame guy. Their courtship was very romantic. Christopher was always a possibility for her endgame guy. It was always between Luke and Chris. The Lorelai/Chris marriage dragged on through much of the season, bringing up the possibility that maybe Lorelai WOULDN'T end up with Luke. I agree that Rory had reasons to keep her mouth shut because what's done was done. However, I do think that there was a writing choice to keep Rory's objections very limited and not delve into her feelings at her parents reconciling in the interest of preserving the suspense for Lorelai. Lorelai and Chris getting married is a huge thing for Rory. It's natural to write a storyline about the extent of Rory's feelings about the marriage and the separation. There was a choice to not do it, whether it's Rory getting mad at her parents or Rory really speaking convincingly about how they belonged together or Rory saying either thing to a friend or Logan. I think the origins of that choice lie in propping the "Luke or Chris or no one" conundrum as a question to only be resolved (somewhat) in the finale. 

Also on Jane the Virgin:

  Hide contents

Correct me if I'm wrong. However, I thought I remembered that Jane spontaneously called Rogelio "dad" because he did something impressive on his telenovela. I forget what. Then after Jane took the spontaneous "dad" step, she tried drifting back to call him by his first name and THEN, Rogelio adorably said "No, you said Dad. I'm Dad to you now." or something. 

Perhaps our differences in perspective have to do with our differences in preferences.  I liked Christopher (though I wasn't a shipper per se, just liked him) and disliked Luke as a romantic pairing for Lorelai at that point.  And to me it seemed painfully obvious that 1) Lorelai was not at all enthused about getting married and 2) they were making Chris willfully oblivious to that fact.  Up to that point, despite how they reconnected which was plainly a rebound thing which the both the end of S6 and opening of S7 made clear, it was plausible the relationship might be the endgame.  But, to me at least, the marriage was the absolute sign post it was not. Reasons:

1. Lorelai's aforementioned palpable ambivalence

2. Rory wasn't Present

3. We didn't even see the actual ceremony. 

To me, all of these things telegraphed that there was no way the relationship was working out by the end of the season  well before we got Rory's reaction; not to mention, Lorelai's own reaction to getting married which was to almost immediately start placing walls and obstacles throughout her relationship with Christopher.  As sweet as moments of their relationship were, the restaurant for her in Paris and the private dive-in, it was pretty clear that Lorelai wasn't really happy.  I will absolutely agree that "no one" was on the table, so Luke wasn't automatic, but the writing was on the wall for me regarding Christopher. 

Re JtV

Spoiler

I think you are right.  After the "I am Dad, you cannot take it back" or however he phrased it, he would give Jane a look if she started to refer to him as Rogelio. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by RachelKM

[hippielamb]

On 9/28/2016 at 7:12 PM, Smad said:

And this is one of the reasons why I can't understand how anyone could be pro-L/C, beyond the 2 actors having chemistry and him being good looking. If Chris had at any point been a major part of Lorelai's life for the past 10 years (meaning S7 and backwards), then Luke being there should leave him as unfazed as it does Rory or as it would any SH citizen. But because he wasn't there, he has no grasp of the L/L bond which goes way beyond lovers. He wasn't there during 'Run Away Little Boy' when these two basically pledged to be there for the other for the rest of their lives (so to speak). And that was still there in S7 despite everything. But since Chris doesn't know and never cared to know what these 2 were to each other, it's no surprise that he throws a fit when Luke is there for Lorelai or vice versa.

I admit that's part of it. I love tv couples that have great chemistry. If Jess were more likable, I'm sure I would be on board for his relationship with Rory. It's clear that Chris didn't understand the history between Luke and Lorelai, maybe she could've clued him in. She did this with Max too, he didn't seem aware of their close friendship until Luke made a point of it.

On 9/28/2016 at 7:42 PM, shron17 said:

I thought the fight was big blinking warning light that they should never try to be parents together because they wouldn't be able to agree on anything.  Chemistry or not, Lorelai and Luke had similar parenting beliefs in that they put their kid first.  Christopher didn't know how to do that--he was already planning the trips he and Lorelai could take while Gigi was in Paris and he was free.

 

I understand why Lorelai spoke up about sending G.G. to Paris with just the nanny. Christopher's defensiveness feels weird to me. Does he think she is criticizing his parenting? As with their previous quarrel about how he parented G.G., he ultimately listens to Lorelai. He defers to her on all things Rory, and does the same with G.G. The fight was pointless because it feels like a plot device to get them to Paris.

On 9/28/2016 at 11:25 PM, junienmomo said:

 

Money certainly worked for Christopher in that he married the woman he'd been trying to get for twenty years. 

Money was also important to Lorelai at this point because no character in the history of fiction has ever had a restaurant opened so often just to take care of her because the person who got it opened loved her. I'm still trying to recall a single unselfish thank you for one of those times. Or her being flattered by Luke's willingness to open for her.

Christopher's gesture wouldn't have influenced the Lorelai of earlier seasons. i gave up on the show during this period because we simply had not had the real Lorelai for over a season. I missed her.

It's because she's entitled and expects him to cater to her. Luke plays into this and enables her so it's hard for me to get too upset over it. The whole town bows to her wishes for the most part.

I thought it was a romantic gesture. Lorelai being charmed by wealth is not a recent development. She was impressed by Jon Hamm's character having a private jet. She seemed comfortable in Digger's lifestyle with posh apartments and expensive restaurants. It's only when it coincides with Emily's world of the D. A. R. and being a corporate wife that Lorelai resists.

[Spartan Girl]

On 9/29/2016 at 5:03 AM, junienmomo said:

There isn't any compelling moment that made me believe that either of them felt it was worth pursuing the romantic side of their friendship. Luke had clearly adjusted to 'Lorelai as townie' instead of 'Lorelai as lover' and if memory serves, Lorelai did her best to not have anything to do with him or talk about him.

Why she wants Luke? Love is apparently the answer. Christopher called her on her feelings for Luke because of the character reference. She acknowledged it as truth, then he left, marriage over. TV convenience.

That was episode 14. They don't exchange apologies for another four episodes. Then Lorelai starts the asking Luke for favors stuff again and he starts the over-delivering (e.g. Jeep) again, followed by blue cap and the karaoke fiasco. One stinkin' word from Lorelai would have resolved the karaoke thing, but no, she left Luke believing "it didn't mean anything." He's now firmly back to the friends crap because she stood up in front of Hello Magazine and said it didn't mean anything.

Next thing you know we're at Bon Voyage and Lorelai is complaining that Luke never shows his feelings because well, you know, everyone just loves bending over backwards to get Lorelai in exactly the vehicle she loves and it's no big deal, and she's convinced they're over. Liz pipes up with her thoughts that Luke still loves Lorelai, but evidence for that? I don't see it.

Lorelai didn't develop any mature relationship behaviors at all, except for one time telling Christopher she was going to visit Luke in the hospital. Luke, on the other hand, had been changing himself like crazy. He's friendly to many more people, outgoing, even able to initiate and lead a town meeting and effort for Rory's party. 

I honestly don't understand why Improved!Luke would want Lorelai at this point. She doesn't give me the impression that she would be any better at a relationship with him or anyone.

Seriously.  And in the series finale, when Lorelai is claiming they're better off as friends, she immediately cites an example of asking Luke for a favor.  Um, that's not describing a friendship, that's describing a DOORMAT.  Which Luke pretty much was in the entirety of their relationship.

My friend and I can barely remember what we ever liked about her anymore.

[Smad]

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I admit that's part of it. I love tv couples that have great chemistry. If Jess were more likable, I'm sure I would be on board for his relationship with Rory.

This doesn't make any sense. You can't be in favor of L/C as a couple because of their chemistry and then say no to Jess/Rory because he's not likeable enough despite their chemistry. Chris and Jess fall into the exact same category, they treated Lorelai and Rory (or both in Chris' case) like crap. If anything you should be way more pro-Jess than pro-Chris by your definition. Because Jess isn't a deabeat and he was still a child when he screwed up, unlike Christopher.

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It's clear that Chris didn't understand the history between Luke and Lorelai, maybe she could've clued him in. She did this with Max too, he didn't seem aware of their close friendship until Luke made a point of it.

If Chris had been there, arguably L/L would never have had the bond to begin with. And Max seemed to get an inkling over time but it probably wouldn't have made a difference if Lorelai had been serious about Max. If Max had stayed in Lorelai's life the L/L bond wouldn't have deepened and most like would have been reduced to just coffee friends because then Lorelai would have a steady male presence in her daily life. I see the same happening if Chris had stayed around.

So why should Lorelai have clued him in? Chris wouldn't get it anyway. He always thinks he's number one guy when it comes to Lorelai. And sadly, Lorelai constantly proves him right by always taking him back no matter what he does. The same thing happened at the end of S6 into S7.  And then oops, the situation is just slightly more complicated (and different) than he had build up in his head. And it shouldn't have surprised him if he knew anything about Lorelai's adult life for the past 10 years. But he doesn't care about that part of her life, never has. For him Luke is just some random guy that Lorelai passed time with until he came sniffing again.

[Sara2009]

Wow this is a tough room. Ha ha

 

Personally, I still like Lorelai, and I think Luke is just as flawed as she is.

[FictionLover]

22 minutes ago, Sara2009 said:

Wow this is a tough room. Ha ha

 

Personally, I still like Lorelai, and I think Luke is just as flawed as she is.

Couldn't have said it better myself,  SA2009!

[HeySandyStrange]

1 hour ago, Sara2009 said:

Wow this is a tough room. Ha ha

 

Personally, I still like Lorelai, and I think Luke is just as flawed as she is.

Oh, I definitely agree that both are flawed as all get out. I do think, however, that there is the notion that Lorelai is "better" then Luke/Chris/ Digger and that the men in her life should be thankful she deigns to be with them. Same with Rory, now that I think about it. It kind of goes with the whole Team Luke/Chris/Jess/Logan sides that get taken in the fandom and even in show, to an extant.

Edited September 30, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[Smad]

10 hours ago, Sara2009 said:

Personally, I still like Lorelai, and I think Luke is just as flawed as she is.

Oh I don't hate Lorelai. Just her guts.

Again Lauren Graham saves the character a lot and when she isn't doing something quintessential Lorelai that drives me crazy then I get a lot of entertainment out of her.

[junienmomo]

17 hours ago, Sara2009 said:

Wow this is a tough room. Ha ha

Personally, I still like Lorelai, and I think Luke is just as flawed as she is.

Not meant to be a tough room. It's just that Lorelai was/is untouchable in too many venues. Now that the ice has been broken here with the things I hate about Lorelai thread, I feel free to both like and hate certain respective parts of her. I also feel freer to not defend Luke at every turn, because I no longer believe that 'everyone' blamed him for everything.

[junienmomo]

7.03 Lorelai's First Cotillion

The pacing seemed off in this episode. It hit a real low when Yanic is acting his ass off trying to convince Lorelai to take him to cotillion. The single shots of LG, though, were just weird. It seemed to me that she was following some plan to look left, then right, then blink, ..., and it seemed very forced. 

7.10 Merry Fisticuffs

The writers really have Lorelai in OTT passive-aggressiveness around the wedding celebration.

The shopping trip with Christopher treating Lorelai like a child who's not allowed to choose her own cereal is awkward, given that Christopher was never Mr. Responsibility, and even if he had an obvious transformation, it's still none of anyone's business to actively take her choices away from her. Try to convince her, sure, but secretly putting things back on the shelf was weird and not like Christopher. 

They also gave us a brief flash of LL chemistry as they look at Doula. That was good, but I noticed that Luke was very comfortable with the townie-friend relationship, and Lorelai responded in kind until Christopher came out. Lorelai started out uncomfortable, obviously hiding her ring in spite of it not being a secret, then she looks all apologetic to Christopher as they leave..

Christopher really starts to understand the "still asking her to marry him" thing during the discussion of making a baby. Funny how Lorelai who is normally an overcompensator doesn't give in just to make him feel better. Lucky for us, though.

Kirk's competition with twelve year olds is every bit as creepy as his role in Fiddler in season 5.

Luke is very lucky that Anna didn't immediately trump up a reason to get a restraining order against Luke. Using the words "threaten me" could have gone very wrong for him. 

I thought Luke's struggle with the lawyer collecting the ugly information was very well acted. 

Marty has become a dick. The scene where he's exposed was actually pretty good, though. Lorelai's being shocked at Logan calling Rory out on her lies is, well, true to form.

The fight still seems like a non sequitur for GG in general.  Christopher and Luke, however, had a need for it as characters. I felt a real Jess vibe in Luke's expression as it started.

[Guest]

The first few episodes of Season 7 once C/L start dating are cute and fun. I think L really needs someone more fun like Chris or Digger. I feel like they wrote this cute, romantic reuniting story for Season 7 and then realized people wanted L/L to be endgame, so they completely undid it all.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

The first few episodes of Season 7 once C/L start dating are cute and fun. I think L really needs someone more fun like Chris or Digger.

Luke can be fun except to be that he can't date Lorelai. We know Luke can be a broadway, ski-ing and cruise kind of a guy. But he can't be that while with Lorelai because then he has to be a bitter, barely ever leaving SH killjoy. You know just to add to the pile of reasons why L/L are wrong for each other so the audience doesn't want them together, making it easier on ASP & Co. to crash and burn the OTP.

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I feel like they wrote this cute, romantic reuniting story for Season 7 and then realized people wanted L/L to be endgame, so they completely undid it all.

If they hadn't realized that by S7 I would have even less respect for anyone involved the show (and network). All one had to do back then was go online. And while people on boards etc. are only a small part of the viewership, even the mainstream media was all over L/L.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Smad

[Melancholy]

I think Luke is plenty fun. He and Lorelai did fun stuff in their first year of dating in S5- going to Luke's version of Luke's, getting CDs, Luke cooking fabulous meals for her, they saw plenty of movies even if Luke wasn't a movie guy before. Actually, I think they could have had even more fun if Lorelai compromised at all and tried some of the hobbies that Luke loved like camping or fishing. However, they still had fun doing the stuff that Lorelai pushed for and where they were complimentary (he cooks and she eats). All general diversion stuff that Lorelai did with Digger and Christopher.

This is what people do when they start to date. Eventually as the relationship develops, people settle in and they just live their lives together instead of constantly looking for some entertaining thing to justify the time that they spend together. Luke and Lorelai got to that serious place. Digger and Lorelai were still in early date mode. Chris and Lorelai really just couldn't get themselves to place of just combining lives, even thought they were married. They could only relate on an early-dating level. 

[Smad]

14 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I think Luke is plenty fun. He and Lorelai did fun stuff in their first year of dating in S5- going to Luke's version of Luke's, getting CDs, Luke cooking fabulous meals for her, they saw plenty of movies even if Luke wasn't a movie guy before. Actually, I think they could have had even more fun if Lorelai compromised at all and tried some of the hobbies that Luke loved like camping or fishing. However, they still had fun doing the stuff that Lorelai pushed for and where they were complimentary (he cooks and she eats). All general diversion stuff that Lorelai did with Digger and Christopher.

You know now that I think about it, maybe it's just easier to forget what L/L did because we weren't shown. In early S7 they focused so much on L/C that we were constantly with them during their 'adventures'. With L/L ASP never showed us what happened during their dates. We only saw the before or after or both with the sole exception being their first date and even that wasn't the full date. And the only times we were with them while they were on a 'date' was generally when something went wrong. Like when Luke cooked her dinner for the first time and it got crashed by TJ and Rory. But generally we only saw them going somewhere or coming back from somewhere. It's easier to forget that they actually did stuff because we just aren't ever with them. So we don't remember the coming and going because that's such minor stuff.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Smad