S11.E23: Alpha And Omega

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

Interesting stuff. I'm going with some is intentional error.

 

What is an intentional error? 

[SueB]

A misdirect. Either by Charlie "tweeking" their on-line records or the MoL being shit at research.  Messing up the Campbell name, however, makes no sense IMO.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

A misdirect. Either by Charlie "tweeking" their on-line records or the MoL being shit at research.  Messing up the Campbell name, however, makes no sense IMO.

 

So not an error then but an intentional  misdirect. Charlie changing their histories on paper to keep folks off their tails or this being intentional changes that will be revealed in further plots is what I think will be the case. I think it's interesting that Dean's birth certificate is not on that wall that I could spot.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

In the bottom right corner of the board - the blue paper.  I can't see it clearly when I enlarge the image.  But it looks like it could be a birth certificate.  Of course, it could also be one of their fake death certificates.  :)

[shang yiet]

After Lady Toni fired her gun, I thought I heard a tinkling sound like a bullet falling to the floor. Just maybe Chod gave Sam and Dean some powers.

I remember, did Ruby in S3 drop by to announce something strange about Mary's family? Maybe they are going back to that.

I hope Mary won't be coming back permanently as in alive and well after all. It reminds me too much of Revenge where the  whole point of the main character's arc was that she wanted revenge for her father's death and in the last season, they brought back her father who as it turned out was alive all along. Jump the shark moment.

Edited June 2, 2016 by shang yiet

[companionenvy]

I agree that the series shouldn't end with a resurrected Mary alive and well, but after Alpha and Omega, I do very much hope the writers are planning to commit to a substantial arc. I would feel cheated if she had simply been brought back for a few scenes to give Dean some sort of closure.

The show has spent years coming up with (often silly) reasons to keep Cas away from the boys so as not to too radically disrupt the original dynamic. I'm sure they can manage to do the same with Mary.

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree that the series shouldn't end with a resurrected Mary alive and well, but after Alpha and Omega, I do very much hope the writers are planning to commit to a substantial arc. I would feel cheated if she had simply been brought back for a few scenes to give Dean some sort of closure.

The show has spent years coming up with (often silly) reasons to keep Cas away from the boys so as not to too radically disrupt the original dynamic. I'm sure they can manage to do the same with Mary.

I just don't see a reason to bring Mary back, just to find ways to keep her from interacting with Sam and Dean.  I personally wish they hadn't opted to bring her back at all, but since they have, I'd like them to resolve her story quickly.  I never minded when we saw flashbacks of Mary, or apparitions, or when monsters would take her form just to screw with the boys, but I don't need her to be in multiple episodes.  I just don't see how that works out.  Maybe they'll surprise me, but for right now, I'm not too interested.

[catrox14]

I can't help but think about Chuck telling Dean that the Earth was safe as along as he and Sam were in it...but I mean...Chuck had to know that the MoL were coming for them and that Mary was back unless Amara did something outside of Chuck's purview. It's very strange.

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can't help but think about Chuck telling Dean that the Earth was safe as along as he and Sam were in it...but I mean...Chuck had to know that the MoL were coming for them and that Mary was back unless Amara did something outside of Chuck's purview. It's very strange.

That's why I have a hard time believing that Amara sent Dean to the Empty with Mary, or that she sent him back in time to the night Mary died.  I would think that whatever she did, God would have been onboard with it.  As for the MoL, though, I'm not sure God would have warned Sam and Dean about them.  He never really warned them about any other danger coming around the bend.  

You never really know with Supernatural.  The Mary cliffhanger could be a big deal next season, or it could be resolved in the first 5 minutes of the season opener.  The shock value of having her appear at the end (and this wasn't much of a shock to those of us who read the spoilers thread) may have been just a sentimental bone thrown to the fans.  When we initially heard the rumor that she was back, I thought for sure she'd play a part in convincing Dean to go to the Empty with Amara, or something like that.  I never considered for a moment that they'd actually bring her back as a live character on the show.  But now, I honestly don't have a clue what their plan is for her...and they probably don't either!

[catrox14]

I was rewatching Slash Fiction and realized Frank Devereaux might have had a hand in the squirrelly records of the Dean and Sam on the Wall of Weird too.  And his might not have been entirely intentional because he was plain old wackadoodle.  I liked Frank a lot.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I personally wish they hadn't opted to bring her back at all, but since they have, I'd like them to resolve her story quickly.  I never minded when we saw flashbacks of Mary, or apparitions, or when monsters would take her form just to screw with the boys, but I don't need her to be in multiple episodes.  I just don't see how that works out.  Maybe they'll surprise me, but for right now, I'm not too interested.

That's how I feel. I'm not only not interested, I am worried. I don't want them ruining an iconic character.

[MysteryGuest]

I loved Frank, he was crotchety and fun!

[catrox14]

TIPPI TV nails the recap again. I'm dying.

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/145332147287/supernatural-tippitv-recap-11-23-alpha-and

My favorite bits:

 

 

A young woman arrives at her very nice house in her very nice chauffeur-driven car, where a very nice older woman helps relay some information from the script. “Ah, Milady,” she greets the younger woman. “Anna, we’ve had this talk,” Milady says. “It’s not Milady, it’s Toni.”

 

I laughed til I cried on this one:

Anyway, they have a heart-to-heart about Cas’s choices re: Lucifer and brotherhood, but I’m so danged distracted by how the scenery keeps going from straight to 45 degrees and back again in rapid succession. I’m picturing something like this.

Chuck disappears from the pub and reappears in the courtyard. He and Amara talk about how much they love each other, and how she got really mad when he made Creation and stuff. “I hated you for needing something that wasn’t me,” she says.

 

Amara says something about giving Dean what he wants the most just as she and Chuck dissolve into swirls of light and dark, entwining around each other as they rise higher into the air.

 

I petition that we borrow TippiTV's name and call her Lady Milady. Who's with me?

Edited June 3, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Totes agree: Lady Milady it is.

[sarthaz]

Henceforth, Lady McShutYourFaceHole née GoFuckHerself née McWhoFuckingCares shall be known as Lady Milady.

[Wynne88]

My personal hope is that whatever the hell her name is, she's forced to become comfortable/adept in Sam and Dean's world.  I have absolutely no interest in seeing them play country bumpkins as they try to navigate high society in the form of the British MoL, but after Bloodlines, I'm scared that's the direction they're going.  I've always liked the fact that the two main characters are flannel shirts/jeans guys with no pretensions.  

[Commando Cody]

The thought that occurred to me when they spent all that time with the British lady, was some concern that they were wasting the season final on another back door pilot. I wasn't too happy with the set up for next year, but I guess we'll see how that goes. 

Otherwise I liked the therapy sessions. 

[MysteryGuest]

I see Lady Whatsherface becoming an ally of the boys, eventually.  I still think that showing her son in the beginning was meant to make us warm up to her a bit, in spite of the fact that she was shown to be a threat to Sam and Dean.

[catrox14]

So, I meant to mention this before but Rowena's makeup color palette matches Dean's shirt

[Binns]

On June 1, 2016 at 5:43 PM, catrox14 said:

So Lady EMoL Wall of Weird is being dissected on Tumblr.

Sam's birth certificate is interesting. It says his name is Samuel William(?)  Winchester and his birthday is April 19, 1983 not May 2, 1983.

Mary's name is listed as Mary Catherine Howard. Not Mary Catherine Campbell or Mary Catherine Winchester?

John's name is John Howard/Edward ? Winchester

The mug shots on the FBI most wanted poster have Sam's eyes listed as Blue and Dean's as hazel.

They have Castiel's name as Cassiel. (Cassiel and Castiel are both angel names but Castiel is the Angel of Thursday and Cassiel is the Angel of Saturday.

So I'm thinking...is all this misinformation Victor Henriksen and Charlie's doing before they were killed? Was it the MoL being shitty at research? Bad work by the production team? ( I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT)

OR did Amara resurrecting Mary already change the past?

 

http://justanotheridijiton.tumblr.com/post/145031898799/11x23-lady-toni-bevells-corkboard-x

I think it's bad work by props people. I remember checking out the mug shots on the FBI poster when they showed them before and those were the stats listed. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I rewatched the very end because I didn't remember hearing the bullet hit the floor that others on this thread had mentioned.  So I watched, and rewound and watched and rewound and watched...well...you get the idea.  :)

For what it's worth, I don't think it was the bullet from lady whatsherface's (did she say her name was babble?  As in she talks too much?  And now I want to listen to George Thorogood.)gun.   It sounded to me like a shell casing.  I couldn't tell what kind of gun she was using, but I don't think it was a revolver, so it might have ejected the shell casing after firing.  

That being said, there was no thud of a body hitting the floor or Oof, Ugh, Argh, or Ouch from Sam as others have also mentioned.  Lady Talkstomuch did look surprised.  So, count me in with those speculating that either Sam manifested some latent demon powers or guck's protection was still enabled and stopped the bullet.  It'd be cool if in the next scene we saw the bullet hovering mid-air in front of Sam.

[MysteryGuest]

Did Chuck give the boys protective powers, or did he just render Lucifer powerless to hurt them?  I don't remember them having any aura of protection.  The ghosts were certainly able to toss them around a bit before they were able to spit out the magic word, so I'm not sure Sam would be able to dodge bullets.  

[SueB]

The witch with Rowena said he had 'powerful protection'. 

[MysteryGuest]

I had forgotten about that.  I was thinking specifically in regard to Lucifer.  I'm still not sure that was permanent protection, and not just something God did so that Rowena couldn't kill Sam before he could explain why they needed her.  I guess we'll see in about 4 months.

Edited June 19, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[pixelcat]

Was zooming around the shots of the Wall of Weird.  It's interesting to see what's on the board, but it's more interesting to me what's left out.

There are several pictures of Dean in the "porn guy" fight, including one showing his black eyes, and another that shows a close-up of the First Blade.  Sam's Stanford transcript is there.  Dean wanted in Florida and Connecticut for credit card fraud.  Sam's birth certificate (for some reason I thought this was John's at first) with all that misinformation on it.  Something to do with the Impala, although I couldn't make it out.  Leviathans and a link to Richard Roman Enterprises.  Some kind of red box over part of Nebraska (maybe that part of the map is Kansas, and the box is where the Bunker is?)

But there is nothing about Azazel/special children.  No Mark of Cain.  Nothing on angels, other than Castiel.  Nothing about any other associates the Winchesters might know (Bobby, Jo, Ellen, Rufus, Donna, Jodi).  And not a thing about Crowley, which I find the oddest part of all.  Makes me wonder if they even know about him.

[AwesomO4000]

They likely don't know much about Cas either, considering they have his name wrong.

Edited August 11, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, pixelcat said:

Some kind of red box over part of Nebraska (maybe that part of the map is Kansas, and the box is where the Bunker is?)

The bunker is in Lebanon, Kansas so I don't think red box would be the bunker. 

Interesting about what's not on the board. I've thought that Mary's return has to mess with the timeline in some way. The butterfly effect at mimimum. Like maybe the apocalpyse never happens because Mary isn't dead. Maybe the angels are not on her Wall of Weird because they aren't on Earth. Maybe Cas and the archangels are the exceptions now.

[pixelcat]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The bunker is in Lebanon, Kansas so I don't think red box would be the bunker. 

 

I think it's the red pin.  The map looks like it's actually two separate maps, the left half showing Nebraska and part of Kansas (without the state borders being easy to see):

The map I pulled off of Google, with Lebanon marked:

 

The right half of the map looks like Chicago and part of Indiana around Lake Michigan:

And I really hope that doesn't mean we're going back to Chicago to see all the fancy werewolves and their fancy parties.  Because just NO.

[catrox14]

Oh I gotcha. 

Could the red section be the area The Darkness was released? It's not too far from Superior, NE which is where the Mexican restaurant was near.

That part of the Illinois map could include Pontiac, Illinois where Jimmy was from and where Dean was buried.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Lady GoScrewHerself is being set up to be the lead in a spinoff about the MoL in Chicago fighting against the monster families with Ennis. Just don't attach Supernatural to the name please.

[pixelcat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That part of the Illinois map could include Pontiac, Illinois where Jimmy was from and where Dean was buried.

 

Looks to me Pontiac is way to far south and west of the snippet of map shown.  Could still be there, just not on the part we see.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Lady GoScrewHerself is being set up to be the lead in a spinoff about the MoL in Chicago fighting against the monster families with Ennis. Just don't attach Supernatural to the name please.

Amen to that.

[rue721]

I'm very excited that Mary's back!

The ghost hunting was cool, and I actually would have liked it fine if it had gone on significantly longer. Even though it was just a random interlude that didn't really fit with the rest of the episode.

Sam's sad faces in this one were heartbreaking. When the sun comes out and they go outside, and Dean's not there? Poor thing! 

And I'm sorry, but Amara irritates the hell out of me. Apparently, she's incapable of not playing the victim for longer than 2 seconds at a time. A PRIMORDIAL FORCE that can't stop with the "woe is me" bullshit! It makes no sense. She's insufferable. So glad she's gone, and I don't even care why or how she left.

On 5/25/2016 at 11:16 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Bella 2.0- I mean Toni- seemed promising.

Wow, now that you say that...she really is Bela 2.0!

Why do we need a Bela 2.0, though? Honestly, I never really liked Bela 1.0. The rich British aristocratic ~badass~ is just such a tired idea. Well, not if it's Jude Law, he's great at playing those kinds of characters. But nobody else can really pull it off imo.

On 5/25/2016 at 11:57 PM, catrox14 said:

I actually preferred last season right up to the minute they killed Death. It was emotional and meaningful. [...]

At least they got to ghost hunt again.

Yeah, I didn't like S10's finale overall, but I did think that Sam gathering those family photos and pulling them out as a last ditch effort to get through to Dean, and just generally being so *sad* at what was happening with his brother, was pretty heartbreaking. That was one of the best part of that finale, I think.

The ghosts were maybe the best part of this one. Which...well, I don't even really know what to think about that!

On 5/26/2016 at 0:09 AM, Frost said:

Was the entire season of Amara and Dean's connection just so that he could give her that talk about family?  I thought there would be something deeper or more meaningful to it.  She was basically lusting after him and manipulating his reactions to her all year, to what end?  "Oh, I just really wanted to spend time with my brother.  Bye."

I like the fanwank that Dean was her training wheels. Maybe that's what the show was even going for. Personally, I don't think that the show did a good job of really elucidating what the connection between Amara and Dean really was, though. So it didn't really land for me.

Extra weird is how the show went through that period of sexualizing that connection. And in the most uncomfortable way possible, natch. Why?

On 5/26/2016 at 1:42 AM, AuntTora said:

Finally, Rowena's wardrobe and whole...thing. At some point it just struck me as funny she walks around in public like that.

Man, I have definitely gotten to a point of loving Rowena. When she showed up in that sparkly blue dress to talk to Amara in the previous episode...LOL. She and Crowley both just have NO taste. So tacky. I love it.

It reminds me of how Crowley mentioned his "palace" to Dean, and Dean looks confused for a split second, and then says, "Palace? Oh, you mean the abandoned nuthouse." Hahaha. I love that so much. Honestly, I find their pretentiousness extremely endearing.

On 5/26/2016 at 10:07 AM, KirkB said:

I do agree with everyone who says they wasted an awful lot of time on the Lady of Letters. I get setting up season 12 and all, but instead of spending so many scenes with this strange woman in her strange house, doing things I was not particularly interested in or curious about, while waiting to get back to God and the potential end of the world was frustrating. For that matter, whoever she was reporting to had some really skewed priorities. "Hey, the sun is going out. It looks like the end is here, so go to Kansas and pick up those Winchester boys."

Well, she does work for a bureaucracy. Having to hack through lots of red tape means you're always a step behind! ;)

On 5/26/2016 at 1:45 PM, tricknasty said:

Paraphrasing

Dean: How am I going to get the bomb to her?

Crowley: Well we could always shove it up your...

Dean pulls a gun on Rowena:

Rowena: So that was a gun in your pocket.

Can we keep Crowley and Rowena? They are hilarious!

See, it's stuff like this that sells me on Crowley and Rowena as mother and son, and makes them really fun to me. I actually didn't like Crowley much or understand his place on the show before she came on. And then when she did come on the show, I didn't like her, either! But somehow they have BOTH grown on me, because I just really like them together.

I love how their humor is SIMILAR, but not the same. Crowley is usually a little crasser, meaner, and more arch than she is. But you can see how his "Moose" and her "Big and Tall" are coming from basically the same way of thinking. Same with "shove it up your..." and "oh so that was a gun in your pocket." They're not identical by a long shot, but they're so complementary. Like I said, I actually think that they're written as mother/son very well in terms of their personalities...if not always in terms of their relationship.

On 5/27/2016 at 1:36 PM, Binns said:

@SueB I love the spec that the upcoming season might be like Buffy telling off the Watchers Council. I totally could buy into that. 

Except that Buffy was 18 years old. Dean is 37 and Sam is 33. I don't really need them to reject or lose "the grown ups" the way that Buffy did -- or like THEY did when John died! They're in a different stage of life now. No need to try to remake this into a Bildungsroman (again).

That's another reason why I am A-OK with "parent" characters coming on the show at this point, even though there wasn't really a place for that when the show was just starting out. The main characters are all adults now. They don't need the "real grownups" out of the picture so that they can grow up themselves. They're already there. And personally, I think that relationships between adult children and parents, and family dynamics between adults, can be really interesting (and complicated).

YMMV, of course. I also liked the parents coming onto the Originals and onto Lucifer, so I guess I just like those storylines in general tbh.

On 5/29/2016 at 10:52 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Well, she said they were very traditional and kept to their studies without getting involved. I really don't like what the MoL represent on this show. My hope is that Sam and Dean will obliterate them all! ;)

I hate the MoL. Well, hate is a little strong because I also find them boring. But I wish they didn't exist.

On 5/29/2016 at 11:36 AM, DittyDotDot said:

From the outside--only seeing actions and not really being part of the action--the evidence does not stack up in Sam and Dean's favor. I think that was kinda the point of their run ins with with law in the past and I would assume that's kinda the point of this storyline.

Except that the British MoL are apparently huge into studying. So either they should have better intel on Sam and Dean's role in these apocalypses, OR they should at least be interested in using Sam and Dean as "sources" for intel, etc. Why they would come in like a house on fire and immediately make enemies with them is beyond me.

I mean, why isn't Toni at least sorta playing the honeypot? Well, I know why -- the viewers would probably hate it because it would come off as misogynistic. (Me included, probably). But an in-show reason would be good.

On 6/1/2016 at 8:20 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I've had a theory that Crowley has wanted Dean dead since he didn't play his role as the obedient best friend a demon could ever have and embarrassed him in front of his minions. So, I think he and Billie teamed up with the goal of making sure the Winchesters stay gone. Dean dying is one Winchester down, hence the smirking. And hence why Billie was so quick to help them with the souls, IMO.

Very interesting thought! I think Crowley would really like to prove to all his lackeys that he's not Dean's bitch. And that he's not Rowena's bitch, actually. But I don't think that he can bring himself to actually kill either one of them himself. So he's got to do it in some elaborate Mousetrap kind of way. And that's where Billie might come in, I guess?

I also do think that Rowena is changing. She was hanging on Chuck's arm and seemed to actually like being part of the team. She's been looking for a coven for a long time, and maybe her place is actually with this motley crew? Maybe they're the closest thing to a coven she can actually fit into?! How bizarre. I don't think that any of them would actually accept that, including Rowena, but I do think that being part of all this has influenced her and changed her perspective. Also, I think Rowena is all about her hatred of being treated like trash, and I think she basically wants all this power and strength so that nobody dare ever spit on her again. I don't think she's actually evil, so much as completely amoral and with a very hot fire in her belly. So if she can get respect and power with the good guys, I think that her reaction would be/is basically, "more's the better."

You know, I'm actually very interested in seeing HER interact with Mary.

Edited October 10, 2016 by rue721
Clarity

[ElleMo]

On 5/31/2016 at 5:03 PM, sarthaz said:

I've kind of lost track of this thread in recent days, so apologies if someone already posted this, but it just kind of hit me that Dean has been sent back in time to right after Mary is killed.  She's wandering the street in her nightgown saying "help me" because she's dead and no one can see her, just like Dean in "In My Time of Dying".

My guess is that Mary has shown up in the present day alive. The Timeline has not been changed. She has been brought back from the dead at a future time, just like her father and Dean had been.  Dean will find her and lots of EMO stuff will ensue. Mary will die again just before meeting Sam, or right after meeting Sam or while saving him, just so we get some more Sam angst.  ... can't wait to find out if I am right!

Edited October 11, 2016 by ElleMo
my typing sucks

[Dobian]

I actually liked this season a lot.  It's my favorite main story arc since season 5.  I liked Amara and the fact that she was thoughtful and not all petulant evil like writers so often make these characters.  God was a disappointment, sure, but I enjoyed his moments with Lucifer and Amara.  Probably the best Cas season with him being Lucifer part of the time.  There was really good synergy with all the main cast, Crowley and Rowena among them.  Of course they couldn't resist ending on some kind of a cliff hanger, but Momma Winchester seems like a good thing since Amara promised Dean a reward, and Sam getting shot isn't really something I would sweat about even if I had to wait four months for a resolution.  With all these guys have had done to them, getting shot is like getting a hangnail.

And so my journey on Netflix comes to a close for this show.  Hitting the new season in the next day or two.  It will be strange not watching an episode a night of this show going forward.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dobian

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, Dobian said:

And so my journey on Netflix comes to a close for this show.  Hitting the new season in the next day or two.  It will be strange not watching an episode a night of this show going forward.

Yes, it was a very sad day when I had watched my way through 9 seasons on Netflix, and then had to wait to watch season 10 on a weekly basis.  That was torture.  I still don't enjoy it, which is why I usually stream from Amazon the next day.  Patience is the virtue I do not possess!

[bettername2come]

There's no "Carry On Wayward Son" on Netflix! Those bastards! Dean looks so sexy standing up and drawing his gun. I like that Sam seems to be tasked with carrying God around. Oh, here comes that bitch. I like Crowley trying to warn God about Rowena. No, Lady Toni is evil, I don't care if she has a kid. I like Sam just being deeply annoyed at everyone for just sitting around drinking while Amara is "eating the freaking sun." I've really enjoyed his determination this season. I like that Rowena calls Chuck "Charles." Okay, so they need 10,000 suns. A soul is worth a hundred suns. And then they end up with hundreds of thousands of souls. That's a crazy bomb. They only needed like 100 souls. "You get me enough souls, I can build a bomb." I have to say, I love that the show can produce lines like this. I like the use of Waverly Hills, more so after seeing the Buzzfeed Unsolved about it. I think someone on that show watches this one. Love Dean's Rowena impression. Cool shot of the crystal sucking up the souls with the purple light. I don't blame the angels for refusing to give out souls. Samandriel did say they guard the souls in heaven back in season 8. Ha! Billy and Crowley had a moment. I like that they wanted to stop at Mom's fake grave, even if it is only cause of the end reveal. It's a nice cemetery. Good hugging. I like that Rowena and Crowley are sitting next to each other at the bar while Amara and Dean are talking. Even the terrible family is together when the universe is ending. "Earth'll be fine. It's got you. And Sam." Ah, look at Amara, bringing a Winchester back from the dead. I'm starting to see that family resemblance.

Why do English women keep shooting Sam?!

On 11/1/2016 at 9:00 PM, Dobian said:

I actually liked this season a lot.  It's my favorite main story arc since season 5.  I liked Amara and the fact that she was thoughtful and not all petulant evil like writers so often make these characters.

Same. I mean, after you almost end the world the only logical way to up the ante is threaten to end the universe. I wasn't a huge fan of Emily Swallow or the connection to Dean, but the concept was a good one. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Same. I mean, after you almost end the world the only logical way to up the ante is threaten to end the universe. I wasn't a huge fan of Emily Swallow or the connection to Dean, but the concept was a good one. 

I agree, it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't just another typical-evil-because...reasons-villain. Which was a nice change of pace, IMO.

Edited September 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Hanahope]

So Amarra sees one photo of Dean with Mary, and talks with one elderly woman about her son and suddently she's all blubbery for God/family?  Really?  I know they had to write some sort of resolution, but this seems a bit weaksauce.  That happens when you write about huge powerful villains.  Amarra is just going to be ok with everything now, even though she always destroyed everything before?  Ok.

And we have the set up for S12.  Mary is back (they've gone through the rest of the family, of course she's back now).  There's finally a real indication of a functioning Men of Letters in Europe, and they don't seem too happy with the restarted American side.  We still have Rowena and Crowley, whom I'm sure will be up to mischief.  Cas is still around and who knows where Lucifer went (or did I miss it?)

Lol at Dean heading for the beer, because, why not?  The sun is dying, what better time to get drunk.

On to S12 finally.  Where do you go after God?

[The Companion]

On 5/25/2016 at 10:16 PM, ZennyKenny said:

 

God seriously didn't zap Dean back to the Lair before taking off? Dick move, man.

Yeah, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't send him back. It was a weird choice that falls into "because plot reasons" for me.

On 5/25/2016 at 11:09 PM, Frost said:

Was the entire season of Amara and Dean's connection just so that he could give her that talk about family?  I thought there would be something deeper or more meaningful to it.  She was basically lusting after him and manipulating his reactions to her all year, to what end?  "Oh, I just really wanted to spend time with my brother.  Bye."

I hear all of the great analysis on this point but I agree. It feels like it was all a bit wasted. I think they may have intended some of the other connections made in this thread, but in the end they failed to actually make those connections, IMO. It was a rushed conclusion that ended up giving us very little payoff on all of these scenes where they talk about their connection.

On 5/25/2016 at 11:40 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Okay - this is likely hyperbole and me seeing something that's not there, but here goes...

I thought that Dean was a representative of her brother's creation. And also the last bearer of her "lock." She was manipulating him, trying to control him because he was representing those things. That's similar to what Amara had done before - except in that case it was destroy her brother's creations. This time she was manipulating them/him. She was interested in him as her brother's creation, but at the same time she wanted to influence his responses. I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean here - like maybe she was like a kid who wants a puppy, but only wants the puppy to do what she wants it to do, and then is disappointed when the puppy doesn't want to play right then, but wants to sleep. So interest, but only to a point, because she doesn't want Dean to reject her - like her brother did. So I think Dean was like being near to something of Chuck's without the fear / concern of being rejected again, because she could influence his response - unlike Chuck's.

So yes, she did want to see Chuck - she had said as such all season - but that didn't mean - to me - that Dean didn't serve a purpose here. I actually think he did and was extremely important. Oh, I think I got the illustration I was looking for...

Dean was like a bike with training wheels. A way for Amara to learn about Chuck's creation without the fear of falling (being rejected), and after being locked away so long, that was a necessity for Amara to take a chance to learn. She needed to be able to somewhat control the situation/response to even begin to take a chance. If there was that fear of being rejected again, it likely wouldn't have happened at all. I think instead she would've just come out swinging.

So bottom line, I think Dean was her training wheels. He gave Amara a safe first look and therefore the confidence to take a chance and really see Chuck's creation for what it could be, and that she didn't have to be afraid of it anymore. That she could see why Chuck could love these other things as well as her and accept that herself.

That made sense in my head, anyway.

I like this explanation but I wish there was more of it in the show/dialogue. I don't understand how a show manages to overexplain some stuff into the ground and then whiffs on explaining a rather critical (based on screentime) point.

On 5/26/2016 at 12:42 AM, AuntTora said:

 

Finally, Rowena's wardrobe and whole...thing. At some point it just struck me as funny she walks around in public like that.

I love this about her. It is just so Rowena to walk around in full length gowns like she may have to head to a ball any minute. 😂

I do think it is a good shorthand for a few things, though. 1. It reinforces the image she is trying to project as a lady/woman of means. 2. It reinforces that she doesn't fight with her body. I really like when she is contrasted with Sam. She is so tiny (wee?) and I love that she holds her own in a different way.

On 5/26/2016 at 5:58 AM, ae2 said:

Seriously people, there has to be a better place to slice open than the palm of your hand. That's going to take forever to heal, and make doing two handed things difficult. 

I think this 100% of the time that people do it in shows and movies. I also worry a buy about ligament and tendon damage. *shudder*

On 5/26/2016 at 11:34 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Probably gonna need a pie chart for it.

Mmmmm. Pie.

On 5/26/2016 at 2:50 PM, catrox14 said:

 

Right?

They literally only needed to have Lady Killy McWoman of Letters in the scene with Sam at the end. That's it. They literally wasted 10 minutes in total on her introduction. 10 minutes out of 42. That's too much for a finale and it was interjected where it ruined the flow of the episode.

Man. If they would have left all that out until the end and let the scenes with the core group breathe for 5 freaking minutes this would have been far better.

Agreed. This could have all been established next season and the mystery of who she was would have made a better cliffhanger than what we got. 

On 5/26/2016 at 3:40 PM, Ferniesfreckles said:

And I thought there was one special key.  Maybe every MoL lair uses the same one?  

 

I thought I saw the same key box in Lady Toni's bag that Henry gave to the boys. 

They worked really hard for an apparently unnecessary key. Lol.

Look, maybe they manage a good explanation in S12, but I just find the entire thing ridiculous from the information available. We are supposed to believe that there was a surviving chapter of the MOL and they knew the location of this bunker and they didn't send anyone to staff it or collect the materials and artifacts over the course of decades?? Really??? The bunker contains a ton of material. I can't believe that nobody went to archive it or examine it. 

Putting aside that they have apparently hung around on the sidelines for multiple apocalypses, I just can't believe an organization that catalogues and researches is going to abandon that information.

On 5/26/2016 at 5:03 PM, Omegamom said:

Oh, Crowley and Billie must have a thing going on.  Crowley smiled for her!  And it was a real smile, not a smirk!

Well, Billie is pretty awesome. She makes me smile too. 

 

On 5/27/2016 at 12:04 AM, SueB said:

Got to re-watch it again.  I love watching without commercials.  It just flows so much better.  I get the anti-climatic feel because there's no "boom", but because I love all the character stuff, I REALLY liked the resolution to this season.  So, here's my re-watch thoughts (jump to bottom for the TL;DR😞

Plot: I liked the sun dying, the rest of the world recognizing some shit was going down but the general populace eating up the scientific denial.  I personally believe Amara's been getting to the point of a turn-around all season so that didn't surprise me.  I liked the "soul bomb" Plan B - very consistent with the shows' canon.  I think the ONLY resolution was to either kill off both God & Amara or have then decide family was more important than their pain.  Gee... what a surprise that "Supernatural" went with the message of "family" (/sarcasm).  Seriously, I think it was a consistent solution.  What was missing: God had his dramatic moment LAST episode, but I think he needed to give more to Amara in this finale. Specifically, I think he needed to say, again, how much he hated the 'locking away' solution and how he wished he had figured out a better way than that.  That he was impatient and in fact these creations taught him plenty over the years. And he just wants to be her brother again.  I think the peace between them was cut short.  I realize it's more Yellow Crayon stuff, but I think that would have helped (and acknowledged Chuck's/God's mistakes). What didn't work: S12 Lady Toni setup.  I get why they hit most of the beats they hit, but it was distracting. 

Character:  This was a doozey! And I loved so much of what we got. Starting small and going bigger...

Lady Toni: Old school, single Mom, long-time Winchester stalker. It seemed like she had made the Winchester's her mission prior to this. At least she questioned the timing of the order.  I fully expect next season to be her representing the the "chronicle don't engage" POV from the Supernatural version of the Watcher's Council (Buffy Shout Out!). Unless the audience demands her head, she'll end up a Winchester ally before S12 is over IMO.  Otherwise they wouldn't have shown her motivation (child). There was too much "CW" feel to her character. I would have liked her better in sensible shoes.

Billie: Okay... what was up with that look with Crowley?  I can't even. And yet, I want to see it again.  All I know is that I love this Reaper. She's just the epitome of "cool". End of the world? Here's 200,000 souls... do your thing...I'm outta here.  No muss, no fuss. Love her.

Rowena: Sucking up to God. Because it's in her nature.  Not wrong about the tea though.  A good cuppa solves most issues.  I thought they used her talents well. I like how Ruth played her pretty straight-forward. I'm actually hoping she and Crowley eventually reconcile. (Hey, this is my personality... I don't expect anyone else to have even a smidgeon of sympathy for her.)

Crowley: Didn't have much to do but I liked the little touches. Rejecting the whiskey that was sitting out and finding the "good stuff".  Offering it to Moose. Telling God he wasn't going to call him "Dad". Having the classic reaction to his Mom attempting to get a new boyfriend. The oh-so-naughty suggestion about the soul bomb being able to fit up Dean's backside. Smiling at Billie. And my favorite: "Bingo." Of COURSE Crowley had already figured out that killing Amara was going to be the only solution. He knew what Plan B was three steps before everyone else but didn't see a solution to make it happen.  I like smart Crowley.  Even if he didn't have a way to implement Plan B.

Cas: This was not a big Cas episode but "I could go with you." was about ALL I needed to hear from Cas.  How could one little sentence convey so MUCH.  And it did. Oh my heart.  And of course if Dean says 'No, take care of Sam.' then that is precisely what Cas is going to do.  That's his new mission. Because Dean said so.  Again, my heart.  I so freakin' love that dweeby little angel.  And I'm really glad that Dean affirmed his loyalty and bravery in that car ride.  Cas was so down on himself all year. Dean told him exactly what he needed -- "You're our brother Cas and I want you to know that'.  And it was said in a way that... IDK... it just felt like a permanent declaration of status. And Cas getting a little teary eyed at that moment? I was so glad he recognized that Dean was putting a claim on him. I actually think this will matter in S12 (see future thoughts).    

Chuck: I was a little disappointed Chuck didn't acknowledge how much he had screwed up (see Plot discussion).  But I loved how Rob B. portrayed God really shaken up and in "wise" mode.  And I'm glad the camera panned to him when it was acknowledge Dean was going to die killing Amara.  That hurt, and Rob sold it.  

Amara: I really liked her this episode. I think we've been building to this turn around all season.  Her constant "softening" when around Dean.  It was in that connection/desire to be near Dean opened her eyes up more to God's creations.  And then when she was in the garden, did you notice that the flowers she touched DIED?  Two boxes of red geraniums.  It's why she wouldn't take the bird seed.  The guilt of ending all this creation really started to weigh down on her.  She was READY to hear Dean's speech.  He really didn't have to sell hard because seeing those flowers, listening to the older lady... she had gotten her revenge and now her eyes were completely open to the consequences.  I thought Emily did a great job of showing how uncomfortable that realization was making her feel.  All her fire had gone out and she was rolling in the guilt. Even when the Dean bomb showed up, she barely could scratch up some bitterness.  But of course Dean could get through to her.  She's just one in a long CHAIN of characters who listened to Dean and had an epiphany.  I liked the way she kind of looked at Dean as she started to talk to God.  Like she wanted his support in that moment.  I think they set this up all year and it was a good payoff.

Sam: Oy. Did Jared make me cry.  First, I love that when Dean's ready to pop a cold one and wait for the end, there's Sam STILL WITH HOPE.  It's like his defining characteristic.  He even sassed God a bit (which is a lot for Sam!). Again, perfect character continuity with past seasons.  Annoying everyone who wants to wallow and laying on the pressure to get them into getting off their asses. You go Sam.  Getting impatient and intentionally pissing off ghosts. But then when it's clear that Dean is going to die (as catrox showed in pictures above), his face.  It says so much. It says "of course, Dean has to die." For all his hope, Sam feels like this is fitting punishment for him (Sam) that he loses his brother to save the universe.  But it was this moment:

when I started crying the most.  Damn Jared.  Wanting to "nope" out of taking the keys.  As if Dean would let him. Such a powerful scene.  And he was just DONE when Lady Toni showed up.  I don't think he wanted to die, but he was not ready to deal with her issue. So, I bought him pushing her in that moment.

Dean: All the emotions. Relief at Cas being back. Saying the exact right things to Cas and making sure he did it right away when he got a moment in private with Cas.  Delight that his little salt trap worked. The way he and Sam practically swaggered into and out of that sanatorium was gratifying.  Then the look on his face when Rowena said he WAS the bomb.  "Figures" is what went through my mind.  No muss, no fuss. Of course he would have to be the one to kill Amara.  He doesn't even want her dead.  That he is going to die in the process -- well, gotta go sometime.  And his STRENGTH in that cemetery. Everyone is all feeling like shit and he starts providing Dean-perfect funeral instructions.  Sam was right, he IS the leader of that team. Even if he doesn't have any supernatural powers. With the exception of Rowena (who may actually be softening a bit to him after this), all were reeling as Dean prepared to make this sacrifice. And then the look of peace he got about the cemetery being his permanent resting place.  Really sold it.  I do wish his speech to Amara had been just slightly more impassioned. But as I said above... she really didn't need much pushing.  I did like his look when God told him the world was in good hands: HIS.  And Sam's. Dean's not so sure but... seriously Dean, God just left you the planet to take care of.  If that's not a sign of confidence in your abilities, I don't know what is.  And I think Dean was totally cool with Amara and God going off for a family meeting.  So, I think there's a little closure for him regarding his God feels.  In the end God DID step up to try to take out Amara and although he failed, he proved something to Dean when it was clear he really didn't want Amara to die but accepted it to protect the universe.  I think that showed God was "all in" when it came to taking care of his creations and that's really what Dean wanted from him.  So... I liked that this came out.  Finally, of course, we get "Mom?"  FEELS. I'm just giddy with anticipation. So.. again, an outstanding Jensen performance.  

Bits & Bobs:

- I got a feeling that the Waverly Sanitorium was like a ghost "holy grail" that the boys had talked about but never tackled before.  Rowena's stone gave them the tool to do the job. It felt like "Christmas for the Winchesters."
- The lighting with the sun was sufficiently creepy. Made you feel like something global was going on.  Well done Serge!
- I like that they incorporated some of the "Baby" camera work into the Dean/Cas scene. The angles felt very up close and personal and Jensen was clearly driving the car for that shot (just like in "Baby").

Future Thoughts:
- No phone signal, nighttime, and Mary in her nightgown. I'm not sure WHERE or WHEN Dean is.  I think this is more of a cliffhanger than just "Mary is alive."  I do think Amara picked up on the notion (just from that ONE picture in his room) that Mary is the one who took care of Dean's heart. She was Dean's caretaker. And although Sam loves Dean and looks out for him, Dean has not had someone like Mary in his life since she died. I DO think it will backfire but I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. Maybe there will be some healing for Dean.  
- I'm good with the Worldwide MoL challenge to the Winchesters.  Of course they're stuffed shirts (see Deadpool opening credits - "a British villain") who treat hunters like mouth breathers.  I think S12 will be about Sam and Dean shedding their guilt and claiming their right to be MoL in whatever fashion they see fit.  I think the stuffed shirts (let's just call them the SS for short... because it works ...) think Sam and Dean are a version of Cuthbert Sinclair.  Using the Supernatural (on their own judgement) rather than just documenting it. And Cas will be their co-defendant and champion. I'm down with that. So, it'll be Sisko retaking Deep Space Nine, Dumbledore's Army reclaiming Hogwarts, or Buffy telling the Watcher's council to eat shit.  I think it'll be good drama that continues Sam and Dean down a path where they own their past mistakes but don't let it stop them from continuing to fight the good fight.  

 

TL;DR: While I appreciate that it was somewhat anti-climatic, I thought the finale was actually the right way to end the God/Amara conflict. More importantly (to me) the character development/moments in this episode were very satisfying. I'm good with the two plots they've set up for next year although I think we need to de-CW Lady Toni and the story insertion was jarring.  At the end of the day, the performance and character development make this an episode I'll re-watch many times.  

Spot on as always. I particularly agree on the emotional punch this episode delivered.

On 5/28/2016 at 1:55 PM, ZennyKenny said:

I don't think guilt had much to do with it though, because the theme of this season has been to stop dwelling on mistakes and refocus on "saving people, hunting things", emphasis on saving people. The boys were pretty straightforward this season; the only time I can think of any dishonesty is Dean lying about killing himself to try and save Sam. But they didn't even have that one come back and bite him in the ass, as they would have in previous seasons. Don't get me wrong, imo they should have definitely brought it up again, more as a pivot for a heart-to-heart than an excuse for brotherly angst though. Back to my point, the writers chose to not have either character stew in guilt this season. Which to me is a refreshing change of pace.

I agree. One of the things I loved best about this season was the lack of internal drama/angst. 

On 5/29/2016 at 10:23 AM, MysteryGuest said:

I really hate that either Sam or Dean are blamed for jump-starting multiple apocalypses.  From the very beginning, their fate was pretty much sealed.  Mary made a deal to save John, which ultimately cost her her life trying to save Sam, and it also set them all on the path they're on now.  But her parents chose to involve her in the hunting life, just like John's father intended to involve him in the MOL, and so on and so on.  I'm not sure any of them actually had a "choice".  

Personally, I blame the demons and angels for manipulating vulnerable humans into doing their bidding, whether it's making a bad deal to save a loved one, or allowing an angel to possess you.  Sam and Dean have absolutely made mistakes along the way, but there's not exactly a rule book for them to follow.  Most of the time, they were not aware of the repercussions of their actions...Dean had no idea he would break the first seal, and Sam didn't know that killing Lillith would break the last one.  Again, angels and demons in their circle had this information, but very conveniently decided not to share.  I put the main onus on them.

Agree x100. 

 

I held out very little hope that I would enjoy this episode and I was pleasantly surprised to actually enjoy it. There are some complaints. The devotion of valuable screentime to an unrelated character. The inexplicable decision by Chuck to leave Dean where he stood. The failure to have Castiel and God interact.

Nonetheless, this episode has so much good. The emotional scenes hit me in the feels even though I knew Dean would live. I could not have loved the hopeless bunker and bar scenes more. Rowena and Chuck trading parenting was freaking hilarious. 

I didn't love the soul plan. I mean, those souls are people right? What happens to them upon detonation? Doesn't anyone care? But I loved the resolution, cheezy as it was. It feels like this show is often: find the proper weapon/soul bomb/etc and kill the bad guy. It was nice to have it end differently here. 

I can't believe I made it through S11 already. Overall, this season is one of my favorites. There are pacing issues and Amara was a total dud for me, but it somehow came together into a reasonably interesting story. Plus the one off episodes were amazing. It was a surprising break from the internal angst and there was only minor seeeecrets and liiiiiies drama. 

I don't really have a great handle on where they are going with Mary and the EVMoL (heee), but that may be a good thing. Maybe that is overly optimistic, but let me live in that space for a bit. 😂

[FlickChick]

@The Companion, I don't know if it was discussed in the episode thread or not, but these last three episodes were a team effort - Jensen, Jared, director, producers, writers all got together to blend them in a more cohesive unit than they originally were written. I believe the boys mentioned this at a convention and even apologized for the "rushing through" of the story. Apparently, Carver had left to work on his new project, and the new kid on the block didn't do a very good job of handling these episodes. Unfortunately, that person is Andrew Dabb - the current showrunner. So prepare yourself...

[The Companion]

24 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@The Companion, I don't know if it was discussed in the episode thread or not, but these last three episodes were a team effort - Jensen, Jared, director, producers, writers all got together to blend them in a more cohesive unit than they originally were written. I believe the boys mentioned this at a convention and even apologized for the "rushing through" of the story. Apparently, Carver had left to work on his new project, and the new kid on the block didn't do a very good job of handling these episodes. Unfortunately, that person is Andrew Dabb - the current showrunner. So prepare yourself...

Shhhhhh. I said let me be optimistic. Ha. 

There was some mention in the thread and that certainly puts it into context. I do think it ended up in a pretty good place (no doubt, largely because of the team effort, and the very comprehensive understanding Jared and Jensen have of the characters). 

[Katy M]

On 2/17/2020 at 1:30 PM, The Companion said:

Yeah, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't send him back. It was a weird choice that falls into "because plot reasons" for me.

But, Amara zapped him to the graveyard for the Mary meetup, right?

 

On 2/17/2020 at 1:30 PM, The Companion said:

I hear all of the great analysis on this point but I agree. It feels like it was all a bit wasted. I think they may have intended some of the other connections made in this thread, but in the end they failed to actually make those connections, IMO. It was a rushed conclusion that ended up giving us very little payoff on all of these scenes where they talk about their connection.

I find it very annoying that they had a whole build up of a big bad that was as powerful as God and the finale to that is to "talk her down."  Just no.  

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, Amara zapped him to the graveyard for the Mary meetup, right?

 

I find it very annoying that they had a whole build up of a big bad that was as powerful as God and the finale to that is to "talk her down."  Just no.  

Maybe I missed that but it seemed like they left in a swirl of light and he was just there to make his way home. It's still weird. They could have zapped them both anywhere.

And agreed. They obviously had more to spend on special effects and the result was underwhelming.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Maybe I missed that but it seemed like they left in a swirl of light and he was just there to make his way home. It's still weird. They could have zapped them both anywhere.

I could be wrong, but they were in a greenhouse garden, or something, and I'm pretty sure Dean was in a large grassy area later. I figured that was the reason for going to visit Mary's grave earlier.  To set up the last shot.  I mean, really, why else go?  Her body's not there.  Why not visit where they burned John's body.  They had more of a relationship with him.  Dean has a few hazy memories of Mary and Sam has none (except for their brief time travels).