S11.E22: We Happy Few

[auntvi]

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But it is frankly insulting for everyone involved to treat Lucifer as if he's a (forgive me) wayward son, totally ignoring the fact that he also spent a good century or so torturing and raping Sam just for funsies. Some of his other crimes might be written off as a misguided attempt to achieve some greater good, however warped. What he did to Sam, however, was senselessly brutal, and Sam, of all people, shouldn't forget that.

Along with the way it was played for laughs (unsuccessfully!), It was excruciating for me to watch, honestly.

And if Berens thinks playing Chuck and Lucifer as humorous worked to create an Oceans 11 vibe, he's seriously tone deaf.

Edited May 19, 2016 by auntvi
add

[Phebemarie]

5 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I have a hard believing that Chuck would have had to spell it out in detail to Dean why they can't kill Amara.  He told him once, but for some reason Dean didn't understand, and needed it explained?  Come on guys, neither Winchester would need Chuck to explain it after he said "Yin and yang".

I don't think God was necessarily spelling it out for Dean.  I think the writers decided the audience couldn't catch the subtle 'yin and yang' reference and made Sam and Dean the messengers.  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Phebemarie said:

I don't think God was necessarily spelling it out for Dean.  I think the writers decided the audience couldn't catch the subtle 'yin and yang' reference and made Sam and Dean the messengers.  

So they insult both the audience and the characters? As if the audience hasn't been paying attention to the light/dark thing all along since they've been pounding it into our heads from the beginning. LOL . Nah that's just lazy writing.

[Binns]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

Along with the way it was played for laughs (unsuccessfully!), It was excruciating for me to watch, honestly.

And if Berens thinks playing Chuck and Lucifer as humorous worked to create an Oceans 11 vibe, he's seriously tone deaf.

Tone deaf. Perfect way to describe it. I was immediately taken out of the episode and couldn't get back into it. It just makes NO SENSE that Sam would be in any way that ok with Lucifer being near him. I mean...I don't know about the timeline but it isn't that long ago that Sam was back in the cage near catatonic with fear. COME ON. 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What about Sarah? And Madison was a werewolf, but she wasn't evil.

Besides Sam may have a slight bad girl kink, but Rowena tried to kill Dean. I don't think Sam from the past two seasons would look past that to hook-up. At least with Bella, she mostly tried to kill him (Sam), but trying to kill Dean is another story.

I would be sorely disappointed in Sam if he hooked up with Rowena... unless... I guess I could make an exception for hate sex. But that's about it. And I would expect Sam to be disappointed with himself in the morning.

Personally I'd like to see him get together with Jodi or Eileen (From "Into the Mystic.")

Sam/Rowena is a crackship, not something I want to see on screen.

But as fascinating as I find the Dean/Crowley Not!Bromance, I like when Sam and Rowena squabble just as well. I just like the antagonistic chemistry and seeing who's going to get the upper hand in a conversation. Sam totally won in this latest Sam vs Rowena standoff. 

[Primetimer]

Nice try, God, but you may have wanted a more considered plan of attack.

View the full article

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Nice try, God, but you may have wanted a more considered plan of attack.

View the full article

God is a hack writer?  That "shock and awe" plan was so Desert Storm (circa 1991).  He really should have saved Metatron to edit in a more sophisticated plan.

But seriously, I felt like I was singing Buffy's "Going through the motions" song while the plot unfolded.  It was the best power-move that the God-led team could come pull together. Which is why our HEROES... Sam and Dean... who were so outclassed in the power department... could only sit on the sidelines.

Which IS the point of the episode.  Our heroes are the humans.  The non-powered.  And THEY will solve this problem not following God's plan but following what Sam and Dean come up with.  Because God's big power move didn't work.  And God took a hit giving it a try. I think it really DID hurt him emotionally to try and put Amara back into wherever she was.  And he did it (IMO) to save humanity. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

Tone deaf. Perfect way to describe it. I was immediately taken out of the episode and couldn't get back into it. It just makes NO SENSE that Sam would be in any way that ok with Lucifer being near him. I mean...I don't know about the timeline but it isn't that long ago that Sam was back in the cage near catatonic with fear. COME ON. 

 

I thought more about this. Sam is not afraid to die at Lucifer's hand, he's afraid of being his meatsuit again.

Sam faced that that fear head-on in 11.09 and 11.10 and won because he told Lucifer NO repeatedly. As to Sam's trauma, and I'm not being disrespectful,  Sam did have the Wall which protected him from the memories until that broke then Cas stepped in took Sam's memories to keep him from losing his mind. And even after that Sam faced the hallucinations and with Dean's help found a way to cope. He had one more fearful moment when he realized Cas was Casifer but not that Lucifer wanted him as meatsuit again. He was afraid of his soul being destroyed by Lucifer when Cas saved him again.

IMO between all those moments and the events in 11.09 and 11.10, I think maybe Sam really IS no longer concerned about ever being Lucifer's meatsuit again. I think Sam saying he though Lucifer was right was either Sam somewhat relating to Lucifer or was a tactic by Sam to appeal to Lucifer's ego to get him to cooperate. But Sam agreeing doesn't mean Sam likes or is ALL GOOD with Lucifer.

IMO they were going for Sam no longer being afraid of Lucifer or if he was afraid he put the mission over his own fears. Sam was acting bravely either way and that was setting up his further bravery with the reveal he had already volunteered to take the Mark. Those are heroic moments for Sam. Not emotionally satisfying but heroic.  YMMV

Edited May 19, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I thought more about this. Sam is not afraid to die at Lucifer's hand, he's afraid of being his meatsuit again.

Sam faced that that fear head-on in 11.09 and 11.10 and won because he told Lucifer NO repeatedly. As to Sam's trauma, and I'm not being disrespectful,  Sam did have the Wall which protected him from the memories until that broke then Cas stepped in took Sam's memories to keep him from losing his mind. And even after that Sam faced himself and his worst memories and overcame those in s7. So between that and the events in 11.09 and 11.10, I think maybe Sam really IS no longer concerned about ever being Lucifer's meatsuit again. He had only more moment when he faced Lucifer and Cas saved him. It might also have been a tactic by Sam to appeal to Lucifer's ego to get him to cooperate.

IMO they were going for Sam no longer being afraid of Lucifer or if he was afraid he put the mission over his own fears. Sam was acting bravely either way and that was setting up his further bravery with the reveal he had already volunteered to take the Mark. Those are heroic moments for Sam. Not emotionally satisfying but heroic.  YMMV

I can see that...at least when you write it. I agree that Sam is brave and it's incredible what he's overcome (just like Dean is/has not that they remember than Dean was in hell) - I just don't think they struck that tone with their writing yesterday. Sam was too blasé for me. Both boys characterizations were off for me. I have a hard time imagining Dean being in any way ok with Sam taking the MOC, too. 

[KirkB]

It's a minor thing, but I liked the fact they remembered that a demon's smoke is supposed to be the same color as their eyes. So all of the smoke coiling around Amara was black and Crowley's was red.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Binns said:

I can see that...at least when you write it. I agree that Sam is brave and it's incredible what he's overcome (just like Dean is/has not that they remember than Dean was in hell) - I just don't think they struck that tone with their writing yesterday. Sam was too blasé for me. Both boys characterizations were off for me. I have a hard time imagining Dean being in any way ok with Sam taking the MOC, too. 

Well that was part of my point when I said it wasn't emotionally satisfying.

Don't get me wrong I"M NOT defending the shit writing of this episode. But I'm trying to figure out what they were going for.

Either something got left on the cutting room floor or Berens thinks it was already covered in 11.09 and 11.10 tI don't know. Berens didn't include it and if Berens didn't include then Dabb didn't want it there since IMO by the time these episodes were written, Carver was already effectively out the door. In fact I'll go so far as to say maybe all of s11 is Dabb since he was doing far more of the press stuff and talking about the show than Carver was.  ANYWAY....

It's seems to me they had to give Sam a Hero moment here if he's not getting the Hero moment in the finale ( I'm still not ruling that out). It was inorganic with no buildup and no emotional payoff. It was poorly structured. Unsatisfying.

Dean did not want Sam to do it that was clear. And Sam springing it on Dean in the last minute made it impossible for Dean to stop him. I thought it was really weird when Dean said you didn't talk to me about this at all but Sam stood there and said, "Yes we did talk about it" and Dean looked baffled as if he had no memory of that discussion. And since we never saw it on screen was Sam lying to Dean about it? Or was Sam referring to their discussion about agreeing to let each other make their own choices? If that is what Sam is talking about then Sam got the wrong end of the stick on that because the upshot on that was Dean was going to save Cas no matter what Cas wanted. Sam missed the cliffs notes on that LOL. 

Dean might as well have been stoned for all of his weirdness in this episode.

Robert Berens and Andrew Dabb. You have failed this episode. (yes I'm mixing my show metaphors) IN MY OPINION

[Omegamom]

Everything including the kitchen sink.  Yeesh.

I will say I've shipped Sam/Rowena for a long time.  He really does have a thing for bad girls.  (It's even a main part of my second and third long fanfics!). ?

Things I liked, in no particular order:

• The family counseling was hilarious...but didn't "fit"
• Clea (though the mojo on the End Of The World has gotta be mighty strong to have a tarot layout be all Death cards...AND so lame, because the Death card doesn't mean literally death, it means a major transformation, sheesh, get yer tarot right, darnit!) (And Clea was a stereotype, but a very well done one.)
• Chuck's apologies seemed sincere
• Amara's anger and anguish at the end seemed real.
• Crowley's red smoke bopping Amara and flinging her into the car.
• The Team Free Will guys being sent to persuade the different factions.

Things I didn't like:

• Too much!
• Too much!
• Comedy too broad
• Dudes, seriously.  Sam should be showing some kind of stress having Lucifer hanging around his home, around him!  A single scene of Dean asking him, "You okay with this?" and Sam, shuddering and saying, "Doesn't matter...I have to be, right?"
• Not enough gravitas.
• So, is the sun blowing up, or what??
• A lick and a swipe for us Cas lovers...we get him for a tiny bit.
• gah...it just felt like a muddled heap of everything being thrown at us.

So...Dean is going to be a supernatural bomb of some sort???

Dunno.  I wait for next week's episode.  Though how they get from "everybody's dying and the world is ending" to Sam and Dean doing whatever it is they're doing next week...

[Aeryn13]

Why does this show have it out for Michael so much? The trashing he receives offscreen is OTT. Make up some better excuse why you won`t use him.

The CGI fight, oy, that was bad. I get that they don`t have the budget to make it look even remotely cool but in that case, don`t even go there and be more creative instead. This was dinner theater bad.

Lucifer being just a lost, little misunderstood boy and his quasi redemption story. Oh boy.

The bit with the MOC was just stupid. I hope this was it, though. Dean being conveniently "tainted". Sigh.  

Chuck just seems so insincere. He told Metatron Lucifer wasn`t his favourite - and seemed genuine about it, nor had he any reason to lie or deny it. Here, he gives Lucifer a syrup-y sweet speech on how he loved him so much, Couldn`t buy his speech to Amara either. Maybe the character is nothing but a manipulator who doesn`t even know what genuine emotion feels like but in this case, don`t ask me to sympathize with him. For all the bouncy Chuck persona, God feels terribly cold to me. 

I do hope there won`t be a last minute bait and switch because Dean was amazingly sidelined here and even lampshaded it. It was a mess of an episode. I had high hopes for Berens previously but after Red Meat and now this? He is on the shitlist.

[Omegamom]

I can't wait for TippiTV's snark-fest for this one!  Here's hoping it gets only one hellhound as a rating.

[ulkis]

I didn't watch the episode, and at first I thought MOC here meant "marriage of convenience" and I thought Sam or Dean had to get married to someone. They should do that next season! ;)

[trxr4kids]

This whole episode made me feel like I was reading really bad fanfiction while simultaneously watching a scifi original movie.

Edited May 19, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

This whole episode made me feel like I was reading really bad fanfiction while simultaneously watching a scifi original movie.

This is about right. I'm so frustrated because J2M2 deserve better than this schlock. I'm sorry but if this is what we have to look forward to under Dabb.....I'm not thrilled.

[Bessie]

I'm surprised that Sam and Dean were written with such little care. Plus, they were both completely sidelined. I've got an idea for a spinoff - starring Sam and Dean Winchester!

[Wynne88]

I try to imagine Mark Pellegrino in the scene where Lucifer has locked himself in the bedroom and is sulkily blaring music and I just can't.  His Lucifer was lethal and calculating and relentless.  Locking himself in a bedroom because his Dad won't apologize?  Nah.  What they did to that character to service the storyline is sad.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I try to imagine Mark Pellegrino in the scene where Lucifer has locked himself in the bedroom and is sulkily blaring music and I just can't.  His Lucifer was lethal and calculating and relentless.  Locking himself in a bedroom because his Dad won't apologize?  Nah.  What they did to that character to service the storyline is sad.

I don't understand what Pellegrino has to do with this? Pellegrino played two versions of Lucifer. The calculating one and the Hallucifer version which is very much like Misha's version. 

This is all on the writers.

[Wynne88]

Quote

I don't understand what Pellegrino has to do with this?

Personally, nothing.  I was just using him as a marker for the version of Lucifer that had gravity and depth.  The material that Misha was given to work with in this particular episode seemed to have little relationship to that earlier version.  Absolutely agree that it's on the writers.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Personally, nothing.  I was just using him as a marker for the version of Lucifer that had gravity and depth.  The material that Misha was given to work with in this particular episode seemed to have little relationship to that earlier version.  Absolutely agree that it's on the writers.

I think Misha has shown some of the gravity and depth with Lucifer.  I thought he was pretty intimidating with Crowley, Sam and Rowena when he needed to be.

There were moments even with Jared's Lucifer when he was kind of petulant about humanity when he was in THE END. I thought Misha was excellent when he and Chuck were confronting each other before he locked himself in Sam's room. That was the big misstep.

[ZennyKenny]

I find that, while watching the episodes, my mind tries to change the dialogue or find ideal dialogue before it happens.

Ex: I completely don't understand the whole "sometimes apologies are lies, and that's ok" bit. Like, what? 1. That's not even true, and 2. Dean saying that he lies to Sam all the time is the most nonsensical sentence I've ever heard come out of his mouth.

What the advice they SHOULD have given Chuck is that things can be multi-faceted. You can maintain that what you did to Lucifer was for the good of humanity, but also admit that you hated doing it and are genuinely sorry. And you're not lying when you say that.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I find that, while watching the episodes, my mind tries to change the dialogue or find ideal dialogue before it happens.

Ex: I completely don't understand the whole "sometimes apologies are lies, and that's ok" bit. Like, what? 1. That's not even true, and 2. Dean saying that he lies to Sam all the time is the most nonsensical sentence I've ever heard come out of his mouth.

What the advice they SHOULD have given Chuck is that things can be multi-faceted. You can maintain that what you did to Lucifer was for the good of humanity, but also admit that you hated doing it and are genuinely sorry. And you're not lying when you say that.

THIS. ALL OF IT.

[catrox14]

Wait just a flipping flooping minute. Chuck said that archangels are made of primordial...stuff...So then why doesnt God just go back in Time and get some of that primordial ooze? He's fucking God. for God's sake. You now ominpotent, timeless, can morph space and time? Or why doesn't he just STOP TIME FFS and go get what he needs to fix the archangels.

Which lends a bit more creedence to my Gabriel is posing as Chuck theory.

Chuck made them breakfast....pancakes, syrup....Gabriel's favorite breakfast...

Maybe that's why "Chuck" said he can't fix Michael, Raphael and Gabriel. That Gabriel can fix a lower level angel in a human vessel but not Michael or Raphael because he doesn't have full God powers.

Also, why would Amara not know where Dean was all this time?If she knew that Dean had been in God's presence then why the surf didn't she know that Dean was in Kansas when she was in Dean's mind..../head desk.

Contrivance to take the prophet out of the picture.

Edited May 19, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

3 hours ago, Bessie said:

I'm surprised that Sam and Dean were written with such little care. Plus, they were both completely sidelined. I've got an idea for a spinoff - starring Sam and Dean Winchester!

Out of all of my problems with this ep (and they are legion), this is my biggest. The characterizations of the boys was just WRONG. 

[ZennyKenny]

Bonus question:

The angels did that "group smite" thing again. So, is the next episode just going to be everyone vomiting and/or turning into a pillar of salt, or or we just conveniently forgetting about that aspect?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Late to the party, as usual:

• Was the part with Dean and Sam playing Dr. Phil supposed to be funny, because it wasn't really.
• Okay, I did laugh when guck sent the peanut gallery to the corner.
• It took them, how long?  Half an episode at least to even ask about Cas?  Thought that was weird.
• Don't they have a key to the rooms in the bunker?  Couldn't they just pick the lock to Luci's door?  Was he really in Dean's bedroom (awkward!)  My point is, why just bang on the door?
• I was wondering when the show would get around to the light and dark, yin and yang thing.  I've been thinking that for awhile.
• I like how Roweena tried to insult Sam like every other sentence.  Except those were pathetic insults.  Big and Tall?  Giant?  That's the best a powerful witch could do?  I could do better than that with only half a brain cell left.
• Does Amara understand if she destroys everything, that includes Dean?
• So guck is dying?  I don't buy it.  Just like he couldn't kill her, I don't think she could actually kill him.  

That's about it this episode.  Huh.  I did like how it was the brothers who were able to talk all the opposing factions into working together.  

Next episode is the finale, right?  And where do they go from here into Season 12?  Well, I am personally tired of all the 'end of the world' story lines and one or both of the guys sacrificing themselves or dying etc.  Enough already.  (I'm just tired of all the shows I watch, and it's only a handful, having rather depressing stories, when that's not how they started out and it's not what got me invested in the shows in the first place.  Seems like there's an epidemic of angst and gloom this year.)

ETA:

since I read the comments, thanks for reminding me - 

• I completely agree with everyone casting shade on Sam being okay with Lucifer in the bunker.  That ain't right.
• Also confused about why Dean couldn't take back the mark because he was tainted?  Since when was that ever a consideration before?
• Poor Donatello.  I liked him.  Wish he'd stuck around longer.  
• Seriously bummed that guck can't bring back Gabriel.  Raphael, not so much.  
• Hey! Guck remembered Michael.  Is he still in the cage, where I thought we last saw him?  Or did guck finally get him out?  

Edited May 20, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
maybe I should read the comments first

[mertensia]

I didn't mind the episode. 

I didn't take it as Dean and Sam not understanding about yin and yang but rather Dean wanting to know why this-in this situation- is important. 

[MysteryGuest]

Upon re-watch, the episode improves only slightly for me.  There was still just so much bad, it far outweighed the few good bits.  

I agree with whoever mentioned above that the writing for Sam and Dean was just off somehow.  Most of the humor felt forced, and that's not usually the case with this show, especially in the earlier seasons.  I absolutely hated the way they all went after Dean for his issues with Amara...especially Sam.  It's not like he's hidden the problem from Sam, so his reaction made no sense and really pissed me off.  And God is supposed to know all, so why didn't he fully understand the connection between Dean and Amara?  He created the damn Mark to begin with.  

God supposedly knows all and sees all, yet he sensed nothing about Donatello in Amara's clutches?  What a complete waste of a character.  I have to say that these last two episodes have been my least favorite of the season.  That doesn't really bode well for next week. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

seasons.  I absolutely hated the way they all went after Dean for his issues with Amara...especially Sam.  It's not like he's hidden the problem from Sam, so his reaction made no sense and really pissed me off.  And God is supposed to know all, so why didn't he fully understand the connection between Dean and Amara?  He created the damn Mark to begin with.  

I have a new theory about why Sam got the Mark that I posted in the spoiler and spec thread.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

56 minutes ago, mertensia said:

I didn't mind the episode. 

I didn't take it as Dean and Sam not understanding about yin and yang but rather Dean wanting to know why this-in this situation- is important. 

I actually enjoyed it. There were parts I wasn't happy with but I liked a lot of it. Rowena was great (big and tall!) I wish her witch friend hadn't died, she was enjoyable. I liked that Father/Son conversation. I liked how they got all the different groups together. Loved the little scene with Casifer as Cas in Heaven. I felt so bad for him (Cas). I hated when Dean made that protective move towards Amara -I wanted to shake him and tell him to get a grip! I haven't been thrilled with Emily as Amara, but she did a really good job of getting me to feel a little sympathy towards her. I would give the episode an 8 (runs from room)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

I hated when Dean made that protective move towards Amara -I wanted to shake him and tell him to get a grip! I h

I didn't think he was actually making a protective move towards Amara. He was trying to stop her from hurting Cas and God because he shouted "CAS!!" when he realized what Amara was doing which is why she flung Dean across the room.  

[call me ishmael]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wait just a flipping flooping minute. Chuck said that archangels are made of primordial...stuff...So then why doesnt God just go back in Time and get some of that primordial ooze? He's fucking God. for God's sake. You now ominpotent, timeless, can morph space and time? Or why doesn't he just STOP TIME FFS and go get what he needs to fix the archangels.

Which lends a bit more creedence to my Gabriel is posing as Chuck theory.

Chuck made them breakfast....pancakes, syrup....Gabriel's favorite breakfast...

Maybe that's why "Chuck" said he can't fix Michael, Raphael and Gabriel. That Gabriel can fix a lower level angel in a human vessel but not Michael or Raphael because he doesn't have full God powers.

Also, why would Amara not know where Dean was all this time?If she knew that Dean had been in God's presence then why the surf didn't she know that Dean was in Kansas when she was in Dean's mind..../head desk.

Contrivance to take the prophet out of the picture.

But didn't he heal Lucifer?  And wouldn't Amara be able to tell he was a fake when she was facing him?

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

But didn't he heal Lucifer?  And wouldn't Amara be able to tell he was a fake when she was facing him?

I thought he only healed the Castiel the vessel and not Lucifer inside? But I was kind of confused about that.

I don't know why Amara would be able to know for sure it was God if she had warded herself against him or if she couldn't even find Dean without Cas. So really none of it makes any sense to me at all. 

I just like my Gabriel theory because it makes God a lot less of 1) a dumbass or a dick for not bending time to get a proper army because he wants Dean to do his dirty work. 

[DittyDotDot]

Does anyone remember a little show about two brothers who traveled around the country in a muscle car while hunting things and saving people? I swear I've seen this show and it was called....Supernatural? But when I search for Supernatural, all I'm finding is a show about two guys who are some sort of therapists to God and other supernatural things. It's really weird, though, I swear it's the same actors, but it can't be the same show, can it?

[SueB]

Watched it again.  Went from "liked it" to "loved it". Want to watch a third time and then will post my thoughts tomorrow... fair warning to those who want to find the "ignore" option now...

Edited May 20, 2016 by SueB

[millennium]

20 hours ago, lynnea6 said:

Wow, I hated this episode. Hated it. It's always annoyed me that the show referred to the relationship between God and the angels with human familial terms - father, brother, sister. This episode went way beyond where it's gone before and treated them just like humans - the devil as a fucking teenager for pete's sake - with Dean and Sam mediating. It just felt like they cheapened everything with these beings from prior seasons. I did appreciate that the attempt to corral Amara didn't work. 

You're the only poster I can recall who has cited my own biggest problem with this show -- the demystification of deities, transforming them from eternal, powerful beings into mundane, middle-aged brats.  My attitude towards the proceedings in this episode mirrors the sarcastic defiance of the demon who walked out on Crowley's meeting: unimpressed and not buying it.

I still love Rowena, though.

Edited May 20, 2016 by millennium

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think he was actually making a protective move towards Amara. He was trying to stop her from hurting Cas and God because he shouted "CAS!!" when he realized what Amara was doing which is why she flung Dean across the room.  

My husband had the same reaction as me. So we both thought he was moving to protect her-I like your read of it better. I will have to watch again.

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Watched it again.  Went from "liked it" to "loved it". Want to watch a third time and then will post my thoughts tomorrow... fair warning to those who want to find the "ignore" option now...

YAY Someone else liked it! I don't feel so alone now!

Edited May 20, 2016 by MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think he was actually making a protective move towards Amara. He was trying to stop her from hurting Cas and God because he shouted "CAS!!" when he realized what Amara was doing which is why she flung Dean across the room.  

That's a different scene-the one I am commenting on Amara is all messed up and Dean starts to run towards her and Sam holds him back. That IS a different scene right?

[Binns]

55 minutes ago, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

That's a different scene-the one I am commenting on Amara is all messed up and Dean starts to run towards her and Sam holds him back. That IS a different scene right?

I think I know what you are talking about and yes, I had the same thought. It was an inadvertent movement towards her. 

[Hana Chan]

This episode encapsulates just why I've been so uninvested with the whole Darkness storyline this season. The Darkness, for all her apparent power, is an utter bore as a villain. The actress lacks the ability the translate the kind of gravitas that I would want in a primordial force and the end result is that I just can't take her seriously. Does she have a legitimate grievance against her brother? Sure, but I can't find myself feeling sympathy for a force of destruction just because they decided to envision her having breasts. Someone wants to wipe out all of existence? Sorry, but female embodiment or not, she's got to be taken out with extreme prejudice. 

I also would have preferred for Sam to have been Lucifer's vessel during all this, if only to save me from Misha's poor acting (and again, the total lack of gravitas that I would want to see). Again, there's grounds for legitimate grievances against God but whereas the Darkness comes across like a spurned ex-wife, Lucifer acts like a bratty teenager. At least Jared was able to give Lucifer the sense of majesty that I would want in God's once favorite angel (as well as giving Jared something to do other than just standing around looking concerned).

Dean remains at the heart of this, but little of his real place in the storyline makes sense. In fact, neither of the brothers seem to have a whole lot of agency or purpose in this whole thing. Dean is little more than a pawn to be sacrificed (and Sam isn't even that much). It's all about God and his pissed off sister and the angels and... *snore*... I kind of miss the time when the brothers actually had a real role to play in the mytharcs and not just tools or bystanders.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

I think I know what you are talking about and yes, I had the same thought. It was an inadvertent movement towards her. 

Oh you mean when she first came inside the building? Yeah I didn't think that was anything more than the same kind of momentary reaction he has when she is threatened and which is not within his control.

Chuck told Lucifer the Mark just enhanced what was already there, so if Dean's basic person is "protecto/guardian/soldier' which it has been since he was a 4 years old, then IMO Amara has tapped into the "protector" to "help her" when she needs it which is why he struggles to kill her not because he "loves or desires" her.  Dean was able to go against her when the people he loves the most, Sam and Cas, were threatened and endangered by her and that confuses her.

Dean already told Sam he had tried to kill her twice and failed and that it wasn't love or desire so "why the face", Sam? 

I thought it was crap writing at first but now I'm thinking maybe Sam's reaction was influenced by Lucifer.  Lucifer is the Deceiver. That's his greatest strength and why he's so powerful.  Even bratty petulant teenager Lucifer is still the Deceiver maybe even using that to engage with Sam's sympathy. Also, Lucifer did touch Sam's soul before Cas stopped him. Maybe that affected Sam to some degree making Sam more suspectible to human frailities like jealousy, resentment, doubt.   Remember when Sam said to Dean, "You're going to choose Amara over me.. and the world" when he was infected with the fart cloud? Maybe Sam was already scared of losing Dean and fart cloud infection tapped into tha

Maybe Lucifer influenced Sam on some level to take the Mark. I mean what better way to fuck over Sam than for him to appeal to Sam's need for God. Because I see no good reason why would Sam volunteer to take on the Mark when he was so adamant and disgusted by what it did to Dean? Why did he go behind Dean's back? Perhaps Lucifer suggested to Sam he should take on the Mark and then Sam goes to God to volunteer because I don't think God when to him AFAIK. What compelled Sam to make this decision without talking to Dean about it? 

I actually had a thought yesterday that since God said there has to be light and dark to keep the universe from imploding that surely God has a backup plan in case things went haywire with Amara and that maybe that back up plan is Sam and Dean with Sam as Lucifer 2.0 and Dean as Michael 2.0.

Edited May 20, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

Yeah, yet another example of continuity issues. It's strange that the boys were written so badly this time because if I recall Berens is a decent writer (but I'm still getting a handle on which writers I like and don't like). 

 

I do think we are getting set up for a big hero moment with Dean but wouldn't be surprised to see Sam play a huge role too. The whole season seems to be focusing (at least somewhat) on this working together theme. It's one of the things I've enjoyed. Overall I like this season- it was just discouraging to have a bad penultimate episode. I haven't rewatched though. Will do so on Wednesday. Maybe it will improve on rewatch. 

[sigmaforce86]

While watching I never thought Sam should have a problem with Lucifer being right in front of him.  I think it's the deceptive packaging.  If Mark Pellegrino had been playing the role Sam would (or should) have wet himself.  But it's Castiel, their old friend they love so much - so I figured Sam mostly saw Cas; then even though he knew what was in there controlling him when he looked at him he saw only the outside and since he couldn't see danger on the inside he was able to cope.

I also imagine that Misha just loved the number of times he got to say "screw you" - that first encounter between him and Chuck was fun to watch.

Other than that - too much talking - which has become typical of SN lately, great episodes and stories mixed with an hour of everyone just talking and bitching at each other but nothing moves forward.  Some of it they needed to set up the finale but it gets tedious.  I'll stick with it, I'll watch the finale, I'll tune in next fall but ..................Please next year go back to just a little more "saving people, hunting things, the family business".

[Binns]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

While watching I never thought Sam should have a problem with Lucifer being right in front of him.  I think it's the deceptive packaging.  If Mark Pellegrino had been playing the role Sam would (or should) have wet himself.  But it's Castiel, their old friend they love so much - so I figured Sam mostly saw Cas; then even though he knew what was in there controlling him when he looked at him he saw only the outside and since he couldn't see danger on the inside he was able to cope.

I also imagine that Misha just loved the number of times he got to say "screw you" - that first encounter between him and Chuck was fun to watch.

Other than that - too much talking - which has become typical of SN lately, great episodes and stories mixed with an hour of everyone just talking and bitching at each other but nothing moves forward.  Some of it they needed to set up the finale but it gets tedious.  I'll stick with it, I'll watch the finale, I'll tune in next fall but ..................Please next year go back to just a little more "saving people, hunting things, the family business".

Even in "The Vessel" Sam was very scared of Lucifer in Cas' body. I just found it very odd and it took me right out of the episode. 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure that Sam would be all that freaked out by Lucifer anymore.  He was plenty freaked when he was chatting with him in the cage, but like anything else, the more you are around it, the less it affects you.  All of a sudden Lucifer doesn't look so bad when you're staring down the end of the world...again.

Dean definitely made a protective move toward Amara when he saw she was injured and they showed his face again after Lucifer stabbed her.  He was definitely having issues. I just chalked it up to his mysterious attraction they have for one another.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

'm not sure that Sam would be all that freaked out by Lucifer anymore.  He was plenty freaked when he was chatting with him in the cage, but like anything else, the more you are around it, the less it affects you.  All of a sudden Lucifer doesn't look so bad when you're staring down the end of the world...again.

I've gone back and forth on this but then I remembered that Lucifer attacked him and dug into his literal soul in the Vessel which was after the Cage visit. He was pretty damn freaked out then. I thought he should have been more upset by that than he was...which in retrospect now, makes me wonder, if Lucifer did something to him to make him not as averse to his presence. I know it takes agency away from Sam but it would parallel Dean's lack of agency with Amara and that Sam is still Lucifer's Chosen Vessel even if Lucifer pretends he doesn't care anymore. I think Lucifer's ego is still attached to getting Sam to say yes. I mean a real yes that isn't a ploy or a scheme by Sam like in Swan Song. I dunno just some musings.

[MysteryGuest]

So are we assuming that Lucifer is now most sincerely dead?  Or was he just zapped somewhere else so we can bring him back again some other time?  I honestly hope he's gone for good.  He was an interesting character in small doses, but he really is pretty obnoxious as a regular character.

[McKinley]

I took the scene as Amara killing Lucifer.  The white light out of the eyes and mouth are consistent with other angel deaths (although faster than most others).  She had no reason to spare him - she had no affection for him, she’s already stated her intention to destroy all of the angels along with the rest of creation, and Lucifer had sided with Chuck against her.  

Plus, it saves the boys from having to deal with how to get him back in his cage when this is all over.   

It was, of course, vague enough that it would not be impossible for the writers to bring him back.