S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[Alapaki]

Quote

 

Ned: Wow you're gonna help me overthrow Joffrey for Stannis.  Righteous, let's do this.

LF:  How many times do I have to tell you nobody likes Stannis. *pulls Valyrian dagger* I TOLD YOU. NOT. TO. TRUST ME!!!

Sigh, stupid, forgetful Ned.

 

Don't forget Ned's other "d'oh!" dialogue:

Renly: Ned, you've gotta lock those fucking Lannister murderers up!  Right now!  While you have the army!

Ned: Why?  I think Cersei killed Jon Arryn (the man who raised me and my brother-in-law); and she probably had something to do with Robert's (my brother-from-another-mother) death; and she's apparently been fucking her own brother and cranking out incestuous children.  Those are only three capital offenses.  I'm sure I can reason with her.

Renly: The fuck?

Ned: I mean, given everything I know and suspect, I'm still pretty sure Cersei and the Lannisters will set aside their violent tendencies and agree to talk this out and surrender peacefully.

Renly: See 'ya shithead!  

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Can we stay on topic about the episode in here please. We don't want to have to start deleting or moving posts but we will.

Thanks.

[screamin]

Doesn't anybody think Cersei totally made it up about the High Sparrow planning to make Margaery do the Walk of Shame so she could convince Olenna to attack the Sept and get Margaery killed?

[Shimmergloom]

On 5/18/2016 at 5:25 AM, Hecate7 said:

I don't think that would have been true if she'd married Lancel. And she should have, really. She probably chose Tyrion precisely so she would not be tempted to love a Lannister.

At least in the books she does not want to marry Lancel cause he had a hand in beating and stripping her at court where Tyrion intervened.  And she chose Tyrion when Tyrion told her she could marry Lancel instead, soley because he was kind to her once.  He promptly had her strip and molested her on their wedding night, but he stopped from outright raping her. 

So obviously she's going to be cold toward him.  And because she was cold to him in those book scenes, the tv show had to have her be cold to him some on the tv show, without the context as to why or the backstory that she was not the same shallow girl that would choose looks over kindness anymore.  Instead she was cold once or twice to TV's superhero St. Tyrion who does no wrong and everyone feels angry cause mean ole Sansa wasn't happy to marry him and refused to kneel at their wedding.

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Doesn't anybody think Cersei totally made it up about the High Sparrow planning to make Margaery do the Walk of Shame so she could convince Olenna to attack the Sept and get Margaery killed?

I wouldn't put it past her.  I actually thought Tommen was told Margaery was pregnant, so I was way off base. 

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I wouldn't put it past her.  I actually thought Tommen was told Margaery was pregnant, so I was way off base. 

Who knows? It would sure as hell be one reason for Cersei to want to see Marg dead; it would further push Cersei out of the action, out in the margins.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

Doesn't anybody think Cersei totally made it up about the High Sparrow planning to make Margaery do the Walk of Shame so she could convince Olenna to attack the Sept and get Margaery killed?

Margery's death means an end to the Tyrell alliance, I doubt that Cersei would be arrogant enough to try and kill her off. Especially with the lack of support that she's currently suffering from.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

At least in the books she does not want to marry Lancel cause he had a hand in beating and stripping her at court where Tyrion intervened.  And she chose Tyrion when Tyrion told her she could marry Lancel instead, soley because he was kind to her once.  He promptly had her strip and molested her on their wedding night, but he stopped from outright raping her. 

So obviously she's going to be cold toward him.  And because she was cold to him in those book scenes, the tv show had to have her be cold to him some on the tv show, without the context as to why or the backstory that she was not the same shallow girl that would choose looks over kindness anymore.  Instead she was cold once or twice to TV's superhero St. Tyrion who does no wrong and everyone feels angry cause mean ole Sansa wasn't happy to marry him and refused to kneel at their wedding.

 

Sansa wasn't cold to Tyrion over the wedding night stuff. She was very relieved that he didn't do it. She was cold to him because his family killed hers, and she resolved if she ever had a child to teach him to hate all Lannisters. She was cold to Tyrion simply because of who his family was, and she was even conflicted about that. She doesn't have any hate for Tyrion.

Nobody expected Sansa to be happy to marry Tyrion, least of all Tyrion. Sansa does think of Tyrion as having been kind to her. I don't believe she ever looks back on their wedding night at all. Sansa was cold after the Red Wedding on the show, but she still picked up the cup for Tyrion, and still had some concern for him. I find it interesting that some of the people most outraged by Tyrion's behavior on their wedding night, ship Sansa with Littlefinger, who is older than Tyrion and who handed Sansa over for the very fate she escaped with Tyrion.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Margery's death means an end to the Tyrell alliance, I doubt that Cersei would be arrogant enough to try and kill her off. Especially with the lack of support that she's currently suffering from.

Cersei, as we've been shown, is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Hecate7

[DigitalCount]

So I'm finally at a computer for an appreciable length of time, so I'm back on Dany. Here we go.

Dany is an interesting character in many ways, but I think it does her a disservice to simplify her motives to "Breaker of Chains." Her myth is similar to that of Abraham Lincoln as the Great Emancipator. But rather than dancing around the issue in relative terms, I'll get into specifics:

Not all deaths are created equal. The easiest example of this is wishing death on Ramsey Bolton...at the age of 90, in a warm bed, in his sleep, surrounded by women both living and dead. I think at this point everyone in this forum has wished death on Ramsey at some point or another; would anyone be satisfied with this? The answer is clearly no. Why this is relevant is because it gets at a certain aspect of Dany: her sadism. The fact that she enjoys destroying her enemies in particularly vicious, painful ways is evident. She promises a screaming death to her enemies and has delivered on essentially every occasion. Mirri is burned alive. Daxos and Doreah dehydrate in the dark. Pree is burned alive. Masters are fed to her dragons. In the case of Pree, there was literally nothing else she could do to stop him, but there's a reason the concept of execution has evolved so much over the years. The idea exists that killing someone in an overly gory or vicious fashion crosses the line between justice and retribution and blurs the line between hero and villain. Even when people are executed, it doesn't mean they forfeit the right to be put to death peacefully under the arm of the law. But of course, that brings me to...

Dany doesn't care about justice. It's really great that we're all hot to trot for slavers getting punished. We genuinely need that to be a value in our society, especially now. However, beyond the fact that Dany is a lunatic when it comes to killing people, it's almost never because they committed a crime. Her first victim was Mirri Maz Duur. Really, the witch did the rest of the world a favor, even if she did kill Dany's child on purpose, which is unclear in both media. But if Dany's so anti-rape and slavery, why does she remember Drogo so fondly? If she's justified in killing slavers or people who actively contribute to slavery, why is Jorah Mormont still alive? Shouldn't she have slathered him up in something appetizing to wild animals and left him out to get eaten (since the people he sold into slavery were poachers)? It's worth noting that Hizdahr and Hizdad, the latter of whom apparently deserved to be crucified according to this forum, grew up in a place that allowed slavery, and yet Hizdahr still went along with its abolition. Yet Jorah's society was anti-slavery, and he hasn't even expressed the barest amount of remorse. Not even as simple as "I understand why Ned did what he did even if I disagree." So why does Jorah get a pass? Because:

Dany is a giant galloping hypocrite. Dany roasted slavers, but not because they were slavers. Again, Jorah's still alive. But it benefits her to be called the Breaker of Chains, so she does so when she feels like it and when it means she can get out of her payment. If you're an Essosi merchant watching this from the outside, who just happens to know what the score is regarding Jorah (for whatever reason,) why would you ever do business with her again? If she was all about killing slavers she'd not have waited to do so until, say, her close personal friend was killed in the street by the Sons of the Harpy. The guy she fed to the dragons would already have been dead--and as has been pointed out before, he likely wouldn't have even been the head of his household when slavery was in existence in Meereen, because that guy was probably crucified already. Furthermore, the very treatment she balked at in being yanked from her culture and life and forced to live out her existence to suit the whims of people from somewhere else was what she gave Hizdahr. Like I said before, if someone had treated Dany the way she treated Hizdahr, the season would have ended with that person writhing on the ground getting consumed by ants or being drawn and quartered.

[nodorothyparker]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Margery's death means an end to the Tyrell alliance, I doubt that Cersei would be arrogant enough to try and kill her off. Especially with the lack of support that she's currently suffering from.

She is that arrogant in both the show and the books.  Once she decides that Margaery needs to go because she fears the growing influence she has on Tommen, she never once seems to really consider that in doing so their one remaining powerful ally will have no reason to support the Lannisters at all.

I have serious doubts too that what Cersei told the assembled Small Council is what Tommen told her or that it's even what Big Bird may have told him.  But she doesn't care.  She wants to get back at Big Bird and the Faith for humiliating her and if she can use the rivals she wants to be rid of and they happen to get killed in the process, in her mind so much the better for her.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

So I'm finally at a computer for an appreciable length of time, so I'm back on Dany. Here we go.

Dany is an interesting character in many ways...

She also found the Gladiator Games offensive.....maybe these contradictions just make her "complex & nuanced" ;)

[Alapaki]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Doesn't anybody think Cersei totally made it up about the High Sparrow planning to make Margaery do the Walk of Shame so she could convince Olenna to attack the Sept and get Margaery killed?

There's a theory started by someone on Reddit that Time.com picked up a few days ago that suggests that the High Sparrow learned of the Tyrell's involvement in Joffrey's assassination from Loras (whom they were presumably torturing), and this is the information he gave to Tommen.  He knew Tommen would reveal this to Cersei, and was thus passing it on to gain keep the King and Cersei off his back, while stirring the pot to turn the Lannisters and Tyrells against each other.

I realize you can get deep enough in the weeds that anything seems plausible.  But whoever came up with the theory has some plausible points.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Margery's death means an end to the Tyrell alliance, I doubt that Cersei would be arrogant enough to try and kill her off.

That was true before, but Cersei still tried to sic the High Sparrow on Margaery. I'm betting her priorities are still screwed up on that.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, Alapaki said:

There's a theory started by someone on Reddit that Time.com picked up a few days ago that suggests that the High Sparrow learned of the Tyrell's involvement in Joffrey's assassination from Loras (whom they were presumably torturing), and this is the information he gave to Tommen.  He knew Tommen would reveal this to Cersei, and was thus passing it on to gain keep the King and Cersei off his back, while stirring the pot to turn the Lannisters and Tyrells against each other.

I realize you can get deep enough in the weeds that anything seems plausible.  But whoever came up with the theory has some plausible points.

The points are somewhat compelling, if very circumstantial (Joff's ring? Really?) but I agree with the first reply, the Tyrell women are typically far too smart to let the men know anything. I honestly don't think Loras has any idea that Olenna conspired with Littlefinger to kill Joff.

I'm still thinking that the High Sparrow revealed to Tommen that Marg is pregnant, so for Tommen it's even more important to get her safely back to the Red Keep, and for Cersei it's more important that she should die quickly.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The points are somewhat compelling, if very circumstantial (Joff's ring? Really?) but I agree with the first reply, the Tyrell women are typically far too smart to let the men know anything. I honestly don't think Loras has any idea that Olenna conspired with Littlefinger to kill Joff.

Yeah, there isn't any indication that even book!Loras knows the truth about Joffrey's assassination, and the show version has been played as a complete joke by comparison.  I can't imagine Olenna would have let him in on it, seeing as Margaery didn't even know in the show until after it happened.

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yeah, there isn't any indication that even book!Loras knows the truth about Joffrey's assassination, and the show version has been played as a complete joke by comparison.  I can't imagine Olenna would have let him in on it, seeing as Margaery didn't even know in the show until after it happened.

Of course Olenna may have caught a case of the show's sudden stupidity.

I mean Book!Doran would never have let the unhinged maniacs that are the Sand Snakes roam free to carry out their plans. And Book!Roose would never have been like "Hey I just had a boy! Give me a hug Ramsay, despite the fact that you are obviously armed right now!"

Show versions of these characters were prone to sudden bouts of stupidity to, I'm assuming, speed up the narrative, so maybe Show!Olenna or Show!Margaery were stupid enough to tell Loras about the murder plot. I'll be annoyed if this is the case (just as I was annoyed by Doran and Roose's sudden stupidity)

[Sunnydayman]

21 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Hizdahr's father's complicity in the Mereenese slave trade and Dany's mass-murders are not mutually exclusive.  The slavers in Astapor were pieces of shit too (probably worse when you consider how they raised/bred their Unsullied).

But that wasn't the reason Dany slaughtered them.  She slaughtered them because she didn't want to pay the price they wanted for the number of Unsullied she wanted to buy.  So she entered a bargain she had no intention of keeping, and not only reneged on the bargain but slaughtered her trading partners and took back her payment in the process.

And if she'd had sufficient ships, I'm guessing she would've continued west without a care in the world for the slaves of Yunkai and Mereen.  She only had to confront the slavers in those cities because they stood in the way of her land-path west.

Tyrion is now complicit in the continuation of slavery.  Should he be killed for it?  Slavery for the cities in Essos is just a way of life until they find a better economic model.  I can't say she was wrong to do what she did.  She is welcome to execute all of Essos if it kills that storyline

[benteen]

The funny thing is, Ceresi really does have a reason to distrust the Tyrells since they conspired to kill her son.  But she doesn't know that and instead she picks the dumbest reason in the world not to trust them and is constantly working to destroy the alliance between the two.

[OakGoblinFly]

On 5/17/2016 at 1:45 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't notice, but didn't Jon give the cloak to Edd?  So wouldn't it now be Edd's cloak she's wearing?  And wouldn't it be inappropriate for her to be wearing the Lord Commander's cloak?

I'm horrified by the theory that Jon and Sansa end up married - political or not.  That's the kind of thing that flies in thousands of pages in a book over many years, but difficult to portray on TV.  I really don't think the TV storyline is headed that way.  If anything, maybe these little hints (for the book readers looking for it) are the show baiting the waters for a reaction.  They can no longer blame the books for the incestuous storylines, and want a reaction to that type of storyline without committing anything.  But sometimes actors just have really good chemistry, and it doesn't mean it's romantic.  People loved the chemistry between the Hound and Arya, but I doubt people wanted them together romantically.

Personally, I'd prefer Sansa back with Tyrion than with her brother/cousin.  I wonder what the remaining siblings would think of a Jon/Sansa romance.  Maybe the same as me - yuck.  But if we need more incest, Jon and Dany seem more likely.  They never met as children, the Targaryen's preferred marrying close family, and Dany and Jon seem to be prophesied. 

And this is the Song of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) - and even though I hate the idea and think it is lazy writing you just know that they will somehow come together especially since Dany keeps seeing that damned blue flower in a wall of ice in her visions.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Sansa on her own - she doesn't need Tyrion or LIttlefinger.

[Shimmergloom]

10 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

I find it interesting that some of the people most outraged by Tyrion's behavior on their wedding night, ship Sansa with Littlefinger, who is older than Tyrion and who handed Sansa over for the very fate she escaped with Tyrion.

I'm not much for caring about shipping, but if there was someone I would have thought would be good for Sansa, it was Jojen.  I think it's mainly cause I just want the Reeds and Starks to unite and I fanwank the idea that Ned would have wanted Jon to marry Meera.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, OakGoblinFly said:

And this is the Song of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany)

Technically Jon and Dany would be a Song of Ice and Fire and Fire. Jon's daddy was Dany's brother so he's already an equal mix of Ice and Fire all by himself. That and some credible alternate interpretations of the blue rose growing out of a c**** in the wall (which aren't really relevant to this thread) are the main reasons I discount Jon and Dany as some sort of endgame couple.

I discount Jon and Arya for similar reasons; Arya is linked strongly to Ice. In the books she is a warg and in both the books and the show she is becoming an acolyte of a group devoted to Death and preservation (of faces in this case); both aspects of Ice/The Great Other. A Song of Ice and Fire and Ice makes just as little sense.

In that regard the reason I find Jon and Sansa a bit more credible is because she's not got strong links to Ice or Fire. She is a Stark (Ice), but has the Tully look that is 'kissed by fire' and is the most southern of the Stark children (Fire). She had a link to northern magic via her direwolf (Ice), but that link was severed by a magical sword linked to fire (i.e. Valyrian steel) and she has show zero signs of magical ability since (unlike every one of her siblings).

Basically Sansa is either a mix of Ice and Fire like Jon or she's been rendered completely mundane via her ties to ice magic being cut off with magic fire. Therefore her union with Jon would preserve the balance between Ice and Fire in a way that his aunt or other cousin would not.

[Alapaki]

Quote

Technically Jon and Dany would be a Song of Ice and Fire and Fire. Jon's daddy was Dany's brother so he's already an equal mix of Ice and Fire all by himself. That and some credible alternate interpretations of the blue rose growing out of a c**** in the wall (which aren't really relevant to this thread) are the main reasons I discount Jon and Dany as some sort of endgame couple.

I don't think "Ice and Fire" requires a coupling of two separate people.

Indeed, in Dany's House of Undying vision of Rhaegar, Rhaegar names a newborn Aegon, and when his wife asks him to write a song for the baby, he responds "He has a song.  He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

He goes on to say "there must be one more" because "the dragon has three heads".  But I think this established that "ice and fire" coexist in one person, presumably Rhaegar's male offspring.

[Hecate7]

Sansa is a Stark. That's ice. The family sword was even called Ice. Their motto is "Winter is Coming." Sansa is not "Ice and Fire." Tullies are water, so Sansa is a mix of ice and water, not ice and fire. I'm not sure it matters what kind of sword was used on Lady. I thought Ned used Ice? It was Valerian steel, but it was also named Ice and belonged to the iciest family in the North.

Danaerys is all fire--her parents were Aerys and Rhaella. Jon Snow is half Stark, half Targaryen, and so his is the song of Ice and Fire.

What would preserve a balance, is if Jon Snow married both Danaerys and Sansa, or neither. He never expected to marry at all, so I'm not sure this isn't a moot point really. Maybe Sam has a red-haired sister?

Edited May 20, 2016 by Hecate7

[Chris24601]

24 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Sansa is a Stark. That's ice. The family sword was even called Ice. Their motto is "Winter is Coming." Sansa is not "Ice and Fire." Tullies are water, so Sansa is a mix of ice and water, not ice and fire. I'm not sure it matters what kind of sword was used on Lady. I thought Ned used Ice? It was Valerian steel, but it was also named Ice and belonged to the iciest family in the North.

Magic is all about associations and symbolism though. One thing is linked to another. One thing symbolizes another.

While its really downplayed in the show, Valerian steel blades are magical. They don't break or grow dull with use and they were forged using dragonfire and magic. Regardless of its name, "Ice" is a sword with deep ties to fire magic.

Ned used that sword to cut of Lady's head. Lady, who symbolized Sansa's connection to her family and to Northern magic. Fire symbolically killing Ice. Both Arya and Bran have warged into creatures other than their direwolves and Arya and Jon have had wolf dreams despite being separated from their direwolves by great distances. So its telling that Sansa has demonstrated no such abilities at all. Not even a hint of them. After hearing of how Bran's direwolf had saved him and a remark that the direwolves had been sent to them by the gods, Ned fearfully wondered what he had done in killing Sansa's direwolf. I think the answer is that she's been cut off to her connection to magic entirely.

But at the end of the day, all of the above is largely deep hypothesizing and theorycrafting about the metaphysics of the story GRRM is telling. From a practical standpoint the case for Jon and Sansa over Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya can be found entirely within this episode...

- As of this episode, Sansa is interacting with Jon. Dany and Arya are not.
- As of this episode, dialogue and shared goals indicate that Sansa and Jon will remain in each others' orbits for the remainder of the series. Dany and Arya haven't even extricated themselves from their current plotlines yet and will lucky if they even make it to Westeros this season, much less get anywhere near Jon.
- As of this episode, Jon and Sansa have enough time remaining in the series to weave a relationship plotline that will be emotionally satisfying to general audiences while not taking over the narrative. Dany and Arya will have far fewer episodes left by the time meet up with Jon (if they even manage to) with which to build a similar relationship... and even as they do Sansa is likely to still be in Jon's orbit as a compare and contrast.

In other words, right now Jon/Sansa is a winning bet simply because its showed up for the contest while the other two remain entirely hypothetical at this point (ex. Dany could just as easily be Jon's enemy and Arya's lone wolf path might keep her from ever reuniting with her family).

Could things happen down the road to change those odds? Certainly. But based off Dany's continued mad conqueror tendencies seen in this last episode and the far more sibling-y vibes with Jon/Arya (they look very much like siblings and shared scenes in the beginning to establish the sibling bond... something that was avoided with Sansa) I find the prospects of the odds changing much to be increasingly unlikely.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

...Jon Snow is half Stark, half Targaryen, and so his is the song of Ice and Fire.

To paraphrase Derek Smalls, wouldn't that mean that for Jon, his is the Song of Lukewarm Water?

[Gertrude]

17 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Dany is an interesting character in many ways, but I think it does her a disservice to simplify her motives to "Breaker of Chains." Her myth is similar to that of Abraham Lincoln as the Great Emancipator. But rather than dancing around the issue in relative terms, I'll get into specifics:

Let's just say I disagree that Dany is a sadist. The show is not particularly subtle and we have Ramsey as the sadist. She is not shown to be even close to Ramsey levels. Many of the examples you are using are show only, so it's harder to defend them. I dislike the vault of horrors and feeding men to the dragon, but I could say she thinks she is projecting strength and decisiveness. Like I said, however, the show is not subtle and they like spectacle. No one calls Tywin a sadist for projecting ruthless strength, but Dany is fair game.

As for justice - I do think she gets a lot wrong. Same thing applies to the hypocrite part. I see her as a young girl who is learning as she goes. When she urges Drogo to go west, she doesn't realize that will include raising wealth through pillaging and slaving. When she tries to help the few women she can, she learns that's a wasted effort as well. So yes, she has evolved on the issue is learning that no good deed goes unpunished. Her pet cause right now is abolishing slavery. Not slavers, mind you, the institution of slavery.

So while she thought her goal was to go west and take back her thrones, she got caught up in realities and got weighed down by feelings of responsibility. No, she's not perfect and does many things wrong and may seem hypocritical, but that's part of her journey. No one starts life with a fully thought out and rational platform of ideas and policies. A person may be pie in the sky idealistic or down to earth pragmatic and still be swayed by emotions that seem to contradict their stated politics. I don't know anyone in my life who isn't at least a little bit of a hypocrite, so why should I expect my literary characters to meet such high standards? People learn and change and are contradictory. It's a thing.

[Knuckles]

On the speculation that the Sparrow's secret to Tommen is the Tyrell involvement in Joffrey's murder...Margaery knew, as Olenna confirmed it to her after his death...and Marg and Loras are very close, it is very possible that she told him as well. The show has not given us that moment, but it is not implausible.

It is also very possible that Marg is pregnant. And that Cersie wants her deader than dead for that alone. And maybe that is what the Sparrow told Tommen...presumably so he would not try an armed effort to free Margaery and risk her death or injury. 

And, both things could be true. Marg is pregnant and Loras under duress told the Sparrow that the Tyrells had a hand in Joffrey's murder. What we have seen is that Jamie and Cersei are united in a sudden willingness to work with the Tyrells and even Kevan to take out the Sparrow and friends...which of course would give Cersei a chance to off Lancel as well, as he helped her kill Robert.

This really does present opportunities for Cersei to exploit. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

. What we have seen is that Jamie and Cersei are united in a sudden willingness to work with the Tyrells and even Kevan to take out the Sparrow and friends...which of course would give Cersei a chance to off Lancel as well, as he helped her kill Robert.

I really don't think Jaime is fully on the side of Cersei maneuvering to get Margaery and their unborn grandchild killed, if Margaery is in fact pregnant. Jaime is more pragmatic than Cersei and would probably realize that they need the Tyrellls to stay in power and if Margaery dies the Tyrells have no motive to continue supporting them.

And I don't think it would really be in character for Tommen to find out the Tyrrells had killed Joffrey and told his mother straight off. He must have a whole lot of ambivalence about whether he's glad Joffrey's dead, he still loves Margaery and must know that telling Cersei her family killed her favorite son puts a target on her back. But even if he did, I don't buy that Jaime and Cersei could be so calm about this that they could deceive the Tyrrells being cordial allies to their faces while plotting behind their backs.

In either case, I don't think Cersei would have told Jaime the truth about what Tommen said. Yes, Jaime's being her obedient lackey right now, but she's never trusted her judgement like her own. She wants him to obey her, not argue with her. So I think if she decided to lie about what Tommen told her, she's doing it on her own.

Edited May 21, 2016 by screamin

[Maximum Taco]

28 minutes ago, screamin said:

I really don't think Jaime is fully on the side of Cersei maneuvering to get Margaery and their unborn grandchild killed, if Margaery is in fact pregnant. Jaime is more pragmatic than Cersei and would probably realize that they need the Tyrellls to stay in power and if Margaery dies the Tyrells have no motive to continue supporting them.

And I don't think it would really be in character for Tommen to find out the Tyrrells had killed Joffrey and told his mother straight off. He must have a whole lot of ambivalence about whether he's glad Joffrey's dead, he still loves Margaery and must know that telling Cersei her family killed her favorite son puts a target on her back. But even if he did, I don't buy that Jaime and Cersei could be so calm about this that they could deceive the Tyrrells being cordial allies to their faces while plotting behind their backs.

In either case, I don't think Cersei would have told Jaime the truth about what Tommen said. Yes, Jaime's being her obedient lackey right now, but she's never trusted her judgement like her own. She wants him to obey her, not argue with her. So I think if she decided to lie about what Tommen told her, she's doing it on her own.

Agreed, especially on Tommen's motivation.

I mean he tells Margaery in Season 5 he doesn't feel guilty at all that he wears Joff's crown and sleeps in Joff's bed and fucks Joff's wife. If he found out that Margaery had killed Joff, I don't know if he'd even care. He knows what kind of monster Joff was, and if Margaery killed him to get out of that marriage would he even blame her? Not to mention that his death gave Tommen everything, he might even be grateful to the Tyrells for offing his big brother. I definitely don't think he'd ever tell Cersei if he found out that Margaery had any part at all in Joff's death, even if he doesn't believe his mother would kill his wife, he wants them to like each other.

I also don't think Cersei would have it in her to stay calm in the face of that kind of revelation. She'd go mad and try to slay all the Tyrells immediately. She'd come into the Small Council meeting with a dagger and try to peel Olenna's face off. Cersei likes to believe she has ice in her veins like Tywin would, really though she's only calm when she's carefully plotting and things go her way, when she's faced with something unexpected, she goes wild. Margaery's pregnant isn't that surprising, she knows that Tommen has been enthusiastically plowing her since the marriage, she had to be expecting it sooner or later. Margaery killed Joffrey is a bombshell, she'd freak.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Chris24601]

In regards to Cersei possibly playing Olenna and Kevan, it has been pointed out elsewhere that the background music in the scene where Cersei is sharing what Tommen told her with them included snippets of "Rains of Castemere" a.k.a. The Lannisters Are About To Stab You In The Back Theme.

Could be nothing... could be Cersei plotting to stab them in the back.

Another interesting point from elsewhere is the dramatic irony of Jon and Sansa being the ones to save the Stark name/Winterfell. Jon never considered himself a Stark; the fact that he was a bastard played a big part in his decision to go join the Night's Watch in the first place. Likewise Sansa was the daughter who was all in on marrying the king's son... abandoning her family name and moving away far to the south.

Yet its these two specifically to whom the Stark connection is now most important and the ones who are going to have to reclaim what belongs to their family.

I don't know whether the idea that it would be Jon and Sansa specifically who reclaim Winterfell came from GRRM or D&D, but whoever it came from deserves kudos for such a strong narrative twist.

[Paradigm14]

On 5/16/2016 at 6:15 AM, Ottis said:

I think the issue is the unbelievability of what we saw. So all you have to do to defeat a dozen or more alpha Dothraki is ... knock over the burning torches? Because the fire ... magically spreads exactly where you need it to? In record time (and this had never been a problem before at the retired khaleesi place, I mean, at any moment you might burn down the house)? And none of the warriors have a clear shot at you? And then you push over each one and it continues to protect you while the men just run around in circles? And at the end, the last one you push takes out the last guy?

It isn't that big a stretch to think that in these dark shelters that JOrah and Dario couldn't have spread some oil over the areas and just mixed it a little with the dirt. The Dothraki seem to wear shoes, so the notion of having thefuel already on the ground isn't that far-fetched. It's just a matter of using it.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

I really don't think Jaime is fully on the side of Cersei maneuvering to get Margaery and their unborn grandchild killed, if Margaery is in fact pregnant. Jaime is more pragmatic than Cersei and would probably realize that they need the Tyrellls to stay in power and if Margaery dies the Tyrells have no motive to continue supporting them.

And I don't think it would really be in character for Tommen to find out the Tyrrells had killed Joffrey and told his mother straight off. He must have a whole lot of ambivalence about whether he's glad Joffrey's dead...

I think Tommen's main feeling about Joffrey's death would be relief. Joffrey did nothing but terrorize and torture Tommen and Tommen's pets. He made every fawn Tommen had into clothing and dinner, and constantly threatened to feed Ser Pounce to him. "Rains of Castamere" also played while Cersei talked to Tommen, and so whatever she told him is bound to get him killed. Sad.

Jaime is so much smarter than Cersei. The problem with the elder Lannister trio is that they were raised to think of themselves as only one thing. Cersei is the Lannister beauty, Jaime its brawn, and Tyrion its brains. Well, the surviving brains are gone across the ocean. The brawn believes it is made to be the servant of beauty and the beauty thinks it's made to be worshipped unconditionally, and so the Lannisters will do dumb things, even when Jaime knows better, because it's not his job to tell Cersei she's wrong--that's Tywin or Tyrion's job. Jaime can't bring himself to step into Tywin or Tyrion's shoes because he's not smart, he's the strong dumb one. Someone would have to TELL him he's smart, over and over and over again. But who? Not Cersei, that's for sure.

The nextgen trio of Lannisters were three beauties, with no particular brawn or brains between them.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

On 5/20/2016 at 4:09 PM, Chris24601 said:

Magic is all about associations and symbolism though. One thing is linked to another. One thing symbolizes another.

While its really downplayed in the show, Valerian steel blades are magical. They don't break or grow dull with use and they were forged using dragonfire and magic. Regardless of its name, "Ice" is a sword with deep ties to fire magic.

Ned used that sword to cut of Lady's head. Lady, who symbolized Sansa's connection to her family and to Northern magic. Fire symbolically killing Ice. Both Arya and Bran have warged into creatures other than their direwolves and Arya and Jon have had wolf dreams despite being separated from their direwolves by great distances. So its telling that Sansa has demonstrated no such abilities at all. Not even a hint of them. After hearing of how Bran's direwolf had saved him and a remark that the direwolves had been sent to them by the gods, Ned fearfully wondered what he had done in killing Sansa's direwolf. I think the answer is that she's been cut off to her connection to magic entirely.

But at the end of the day, all of the above is largely deep hypothesizing and theorycrafting about the metaphysics of the story GRRM is telling. From a practical standpoint the case for Jon and Sansa over Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya can be found entirely within this episode...

 

While I do agree about Jon/Sansa looking likely, at least a lot likelier than Jon/Arya, I disagree that being associated with a valyrian sword makes someone magically fire in the same way that Jon or Danaerys are.

I think having Targaryen blood makes someone innately much more fire magically, than anyone else would be. Danaerys is pure fire. I think Sansa is actually pure ice, but she's non-magical at this point in time, because her nemesis, fire, was used to sever her from all of her potential magic. Arya, Bran, and Rickon are also pure ice, as was Robb. I don't think the tools used on or by a person, make him or her a different element. If they did, Joffrey, Tywin, Jaime, and Brienne would be fire, and they're not really.

Looking at Baelish and Sansa's profiles, I had this awful thought. Is there any possibility that Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned after he came home with Jon Snow in his arms? We know Cat, deep down, is that vengeful. Could Sansa actually be Baelish's daughter? If so, she's not even ice--she's just water and a bit of air--a bubble made for bursting. A happy side effect of this is that Baelisch might tell her that she isn't even Ned's daughter. That would make Jon/Sansa a match between two bastards--Ned's nephew and Lyssa's niece. But would Sansa's maiden name change to Stone or Waters?

Edited May 21, 2016 by Hecate7

[Love]

Quote

Looking at Baelish and Sansa's profiles, I had this awful thought. Is there any possibility that Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned after he came home with Jon Snow in his arms? We know Cat, deep down, is that vengeful. Could Sansa actually be Baelish's daughter? If so, she's not even ice--she's just water and a bit of air--a bubble made for bursting. A happy side effect of this is that Baelisch might tell her that she isn't even Ned's daughter. That would make Jon/Sansa a match between two bastards--Ned's nephew and Lyssa's niece. But would Sansa's maiden name change to Stone or Waters?

Good God, if this is true then Petyr better not know anything about it.  Otherwise, kissing his own daughter is more disgusting than anything the Lannisters or Targs ever did.

[Oscirus]

Quote

Let's just say I disagree that Dany is a sadist.

Well, we do know that at the very least she's a pyro as per her o face during the flaming deaths of the dothrakis and the harpies in the pit. Not that far to say that she enjoys her enemies pain.

Quote

On the speculation that the Sparrow's secret to Tommen is the Tyrell involvement in Joffrey's murder...Margaery knew, as Olenna confirmed it to her after his death...and Marg and Loras are very close, it is very possible that she told him as well. The show has not given us that moment, but it is not implausible

To me the Tyrell women came off as the schemers, keeping Loras and Mace on a need to know basis. I really doubt that either Marge or QOT would tell him that information.  I think the information that Tommen probably heard was that the incest rumors were true and that Jaime was actually his father. Which would be why Cersei was so eager to silence the sparrow.

 

As for what Tommen would feel if he knew that the Tyrell women were behind his death, he would probably be angry.  Joffrey might've been a little shit, but that was still his brother.

 

Quote

 

Looking at Baelish and Sansa's profiles, I had this awful thought. Is there any possibility that Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned after he came home with Jon Snow in his arms? We know Cat, deep down, is that vengeful. Could Sansa actually be Baelish's daughter

 

That would be impossible since I'm pretty sure that she stopped talking to Baelish after the Brandon duel.  Besides, Cat took out all her anger on Jon so I doubt she would've had need to go out and find a revenge bang.

[lmsweb]

If I recall correctly, in the books Cat says she hasn't seen Petyr since he was a boy, that he was sent away to recover after the duel with Brandon. I think it may have been mentioned on the show as well when she was talking to Ned about him...I believe she said that even though she hasn't seen him since they were little more than children that she still felt he could be trusted.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

 Is there any possibility that Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned after he came home with Jon Snow in his arms? We know Cat, deep down, is that vengeful.

Do we really know that? Cause I don't think so. Family, Duty, Honor. Nope, don't see vengeance in there. It's Lady Stoneheart that is the vengeful one, and LS is not Cat.

Also, if Sansa were their bastard, she would still be a Snow as she was raised in the North. Bastard names are based on the region one is raised in rather than strictly based on birthplace or parentage. At least that's my understanding.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Gertrude

[Gertrude]

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Well, we do know that at the very least she's a pyro as per her o face during the flaming deaths of the dothrakis and the harpies in the pit. Not that far to say that she enjoys her enemies pain.

Again, I'm not going to defend show choices because I feel the writing and acting are not as precise as the written material. I won't say that she doesn't have a viscous streak, however, because she does. She was raised with her brother's unhinged ideas and her early adult life was influenced by the Dothraki, so it's not surprising that to her strength means defeating your enemies decisively. Maybe she's just very happy that she won a glorious victory over her rivals, not specifically that she caused them a fiery, painful death.

eta: and really, if you were a fireproof goddess, wouldn't you kind of be a pyro too?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Gertrude

[benteen]

10 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Agreed, especially on Tommen's motivation.

I mean he tells Margaery in Season 5 he doesn't feel guilty at all that he wears Joff's crown and sleeps in Joff's bed and fucks Joff's wife. If he found out that Margaery had killed Joff, I don't know if he'd even care. He knows what kind of monster Joff was, and if Margaery killed him to get out of that marriage would he even blame her? Not to mention that his death gave Tommen everything, he might even be grateful to the Tyrells for offing his big brother. I definitely don't think he'd ever tell Cersei if he found out that Margaery had any part at all in Joff's death, even if he doesn't believe his mother would kill his wife, he wants them to like each other.

I also don't think Cersei would have it in her to stay calm in the face of that kind of revelation. She'd go mad and try to slay all the Tyrells immediately. She'd come into the Small Council meeting with a dagger and try to peel Olenna's face off. Cersei likes to believe she has ice in her veins like Tywin would, really though she's only calm when she's carefully plotting and things go her way, when she's faced with something unexpected, she goes wild. Margaery's pregnant isn't that surprising, she knows that Tommen has been enthusiastically plowing her since the marriage, she had to be expecting it sooner or later. Margaery killed Joffrey is a bombshell, she'd freak.

Yeah, I don't think Cersei has it in her to play a long game against people who have wrong her in this kind of way.  Kind of like Book Loras, she's prone to acting first instead of thinking.

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Do we really know that? Cause I don't think so. Family, Duty, Honor. Nope, don't see vengeance in there. It's Lady Stoneheart that is the vengeful one, and LS is not Cat.

Also, if Sansa were their bastard, she would still be a Snow as she was raised in the North. Bastard names are based on the region one is raised in rather than strictly based on birthplace or parentage. At least that's my understanding.

Oh! I thought it was parentage. That explains, though, why Robert Baratheon has a Storm, a Stone, and a Waters among his bastards. Thanks.

As for Cat, her family's motto might be "Family, Duty, Honor," but she's a vengeful person at heart, which is why Lady Stoneheart is nothing but vengeful. It was always her strongest trait, and it was all that was left after what she'd been through. Cat was a reasonably pleasant person, but her behavior towards Jon Snow revealed her true nature, which was unendingly vengeful and slightly petty at times. The Tully sisters have more in common than people want to think.  And Petyr always did say that he had their maidenheads. Both of them.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

As for Cat, her family's motto might be "Family, Duty, Honor," but she's a vengeful person at heart, which is why Lady Stoneheart is nothing but vengeful. It was always her strongest trait, and it was all that was left after what she'd been through. Cat was a reasonably pleasant person, but her behavior towards Jon Snow revealed her true nature, which was unendingly vengeful and slightly petty at times. The Tully sisters have more in common than people want to think.  And Petyr always did say that he had their maidenheads. Both of them.

Catelyn wasn't vengeful at heart.  Her most notable action in the early books was to urge making peace with the Lannisters and end the war, rather than try to get revenge on Ned's killers.  She just wanted her family intact.  When that was taken from her, she went insane.

Littlefinger thought he'd slept with Catelyn because he had sex with Lysa while drunk and thought she was Catelyn.

[Gertrude]

Pretty much this. I felt that Cat was motivated primarily by protecting her family, and secondarily honor (proper courtesy, standing, appearances, etc). She wasn't mad at Ned (and Jon) for having a bastard, it was for raising him with her children as one of his own. It threatened the place of her children and was a slight to her honor. GRRM has said that her treatment of Jon in Bran's sickroom was atypical - mostly she was cold and aloof towards him. It's not like she was seeking out opportunities to make his life miserable. I have no doubt it was very unpleasant for Jon, but she mainly just didn't want him at Winterfell. She didn't want him to suffer for merely existing.

And I thought it was pretty clear that Lady Stoneheart is a result of her break with sanity at the end. They are not the same person.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Gertrude

[Alapaki]

I've been re-reading Book 1, and fwiw it seems like Martin drops all sorts of hints that this or that Stark child looks nothing like Ned but rather looks very "Tully".  And the whole "mystery" of Book 1 that Ned "solves" is that the fact that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella look like Lannisters proves their not Roberts, because Baratheon genes always end up dominant in their children.  I have to think GRRM was laying the groundwork for something there, even if he dropped it later.

Also, I think Stoneheart is the way she is because she was dead so long before she was revived.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Catelyn wasn't vengeful at heart.  Her most notable action in the early books was to urge making peace with the Lannisters and end the war, rather than try to get revenge on Ned's killers.  She just wanted her family intact.  When that was taken from her, she went insane.

Littlefinger thought he'd slept with Catelyn because he had sex with Lysa while drunk and thought she was Catelyn.

 

Yes, I know, that's the obvious conclusion, the surface appearance. But it IS vengeful to be cold and aloof and also nasty to a child for 15 years, over an affair his father had. And she DID want him to suffer for existing. On the show she snarled at him to go, when he was trying to talk to Bran. In the books it was worse--she said, "Jon?" and waited for him to get his hopes up before she took her typical Cat Stark revenge and said "it should have been you." She just made Jon Snow the repository for all of her vengeful and petty impulses and feelings, which kept everyone else in her family safe from ever having to see that side of her. But they were always very much a part of the core of who she was. She hated Jon Snow for no reason, except that he was a reminder that Ned had cheated. She didn't physically abuse him, but she emotionally abused him, to the point where he didn't even consider any future but the Wall.

Cat was dead a long time before she was revived, and what came back was the biggest, strongest part of her. The part of her that had been most alive, at the time of her death. She was always Lady Stoneheart underneath it all. That's the whole point. The rest of her died away because it was weaker and less real, than this Stoneheart core of her, which didn't show to anyone but Jon Snow.

Like everyone else, I never questioned why Sansa doesn't look like Ned. Probably the casting crew weren't paying any attention at all when they cast a guy whose profile looks exactly like hers as Littlefinger. They don't pay attention much to family resemblances--barely get the hair color right even. Still, it gave me pause. And it would solve the whole "ew, half-sister," or "ick, cousins!" thing between Jon and Sansa. Unfortunately it would make Sansa a nobody, but by then it might not matter anyway.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Hecate7

[Sunnydayman]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Catelyn wasn't vengeful at heart.  Her most notable action in the early books was to urge making peace with the Lannisters and end the war, rather than try to get revenge on Ned's killers.  She just wanted her family intact.  When that was taken from her, she went insane.

Littlefinger thought he'd slept with Catelyn because he had sex with Lysa while drunk and thought she was Catelyn.

Vengeful may not be the right word.  Catelyn was a spiteful person.  Jon did nothing to her yet her treatment of him disproportionately mean given his minor threat to her children.  It always seemed odd to me that the didn't make Ned suffer more.  The book Tully's are collectively spiteful except her brother.   Lucky for her Brandon was killed.  He would have had more than one bastard.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Sunnydayman
Faux pas

[Gertrude]

We gloss over the threat to her children, but she expressly mentions it to Robb when he is writing his will, and her father and uncle fought in the last of the Blackfyre rebellions, so I don't think it's a minor concern for her. It's a very real issue in her mind. Raising Jon at Winterfell not only lets the people get to know and like him, he is learning lordly skills right alongside Robb and getting him used to the idea that he has a higher station in life than he deserves - his first days at Castle Black show that. The fact that he also looks more like Ned than Robb does, and that he's constantly there as a reminder and slight to her own honor is a pretty awful situation for her as well. Yes, she's the adult in the situation and Jon had no choices here. I'm not trying to excuse Cat, because from our viewpoint she was unpleasant to him (and in at least one case, extremely hurtful), but she was made uncomfortable in her own home too through no choice of her own. Yes, she should take it out on Ned, but for whatever reason she didn't.

She's a snob, she's passive-aggressive, she's cold and imperious to some - she's also very loving and wise. She also makes rash decisions with good intentions, overly emotional, perhaps too passive in some situations. She's strong and knowledgeable, a capable diplomat. She is so many things and I really dislike it when she is reduced to 'It should have been you'. Cat is not vengeance incarnate. She is an imperfect person with strengths and weaknesses, no more extreme in her views and actions that a normal person might be in her situation, but she was mean to Jon so she is forever more written off as the mother of all mothers. It bothers me.

[paramitch]

I was really divided here. I loved so much of what we got, but I was so pissed about Osha, whose scene was almost a throwaway. I guess I can only be grateful that was allowed a tiny bit of dignity in that this time, she kept her clothes on? Ugh.

On 5/16/2016 at 7:23 PM, that one guy said:

To get it over with: I'm pissed about Osha. The character deserved better and the actress is awesome. She was a great character in the first 3 seasons, and then was brought back to be killed in perfunctory fashion after 2 scenes. That sucks. I'd rather she'd never been brought back at all.

Although I disagree with you on the subject of dogs, which are pretty great creatures, I agree wholeheartedly on Osha, who was treated horribly here. The entire scene, there was no surprise in store at all. I felt it was clumsily filmed and telegraphed. So we literally sit here, watching, squirming, as Ramsay rolls his eyes and smirks and does everything but point little emojis at Osha just in case we miss that he totally knows she'll go for the dagger -- then poof. Ugh. It was silly and obvious and so unworthy of Osha and I'd never really think she'd be that stupid. But it was that much worse that Ramsay was smirking the whole time, so on to her, so full of himself, so bored waiting to knife her in the neck. 

The worst part is that if I rank the two characters according to this show, Ramsay is a torture-addicted uninteresting villain, and Osha is the far more interesting and complex character, one with the better smarts and long game. So I just felt like this was a subtle slap in the face at Osha as a character -- she was presented as being more than a little dim and obvious here, stabbed in the throat while faux-enthusiastically riding little Ramsay like it was the best moment ever. I was grossed out.
 

On 5/16/2016 at 8:06 PM, Oscirus said:

I guess the hand grabbing could be seen as romantic if you're looking for that sort of thing. But they seemed to be talking like a brother and sister trying to reunite their house, not so much as man and woman. I hope that makes sense.

I can't ship Sansa/Jon, ever. Leaving off Cersei and Jaime, whose bond is meant to be something twisted, Jon is Sansa's BROTHER. Adopted or no, related by Lyanna or no. Adoptive relationships are just as taboo as blood ones, ideally, so that children are given a space in which to feel safe. These two grew up together as siblings for 14+ years. So it's gross to me to root for them to get together. They grew up together as siblings. And while I have no problem with that as a story arc if treated respectfully, here it would just feel like a Hail-Mary pass, a cheapskate move to fast-forward the story. I really hope it all comes out to nothing.

On 5/16/2016 at 5:23 AM, Haleth said:

Like you all, when Sansa ran to Jon and they hugged I shed a few tears.  That was a lovely moment, all the more so because they weren't close as children.  Now they have common sorrows and regrets and can build a new relationship on the desire to take back what is theirs.

I agree -- it was all the more moving precisely because they hadn't been close, because she had kept aloof, etc. The realization that they were family (and probably all that was left) knocked them both out and it was a beautiful moment.
 

On 5/16/2016 at 8:29 AM, stillshimpy said:

Pour one out for OSHA. Sure she died, but she went out still serving the Starks and risking her life to try and protect the "little Lord". By Ramsay standards that was an awesome death, even though we know he will have her fed to hounds, at least she can't come back as a Zomboni. She died trying to do her duty and keep her word, beats the fuck out of most outcomes. 

My main reaction to Dany was the contrast to Jon's rejection as being viewed as a god, vs Dany courting it. 

My one minor consolation was that I guess the Ramsay scene definitely laid to rest the fan theories that Osha was never loyal to the Starks or only out for herself, right? <sniffle>

Dany loves adulation. I just can't decide if the dark side of what I see there is deliberate work by EC or simply a lack of ability (bless her heart). Dany looks genuinely creepy in pretty much all of the scenes where she's enacting vengeance, and the weird thing for me is that they almost all feel like they're presented as "You go, girl!" moments when I'm just icked out completely, watching her lock away handmaidens to starve to death, serving up courtiers to her pet dragons as torture vehicles, torching/crucifying nobles, etc. But yet, I still feel that the creep factor is a side effect, and that the writers still feel like she's the Mary Sue that Mounts the World.

I don't hate Dany. I just don't love or respect her, either. And I don't think the show or books have given us a vision of this person as anyone we want running one, much less multiple, kingdoms. Everything that makes her unique isn't earned, it was simply the luck of the draw. So Shireen burns yet Dany -- through what feels very much like whim -- saves a few slaves, grotesquely punishes those she is told are slave-owners (without trials or evidence), and seats herself on each successive make-believe throne in order to puzzle out this whole administrative nonsense aspect of ruling people while awaiting the next plot twist that will waft her painlessly over to Westeros.

On 5/16/2016 at 9:35 AM, DigitalCount said:

It helps that the people she comes up against are generally despicable in a way most of the Westerosi aren't, but when she promised that her enemies would die screaming, she's made good on that promise every time--sometimes needlessly so.

Agreed on many counts. And I felt sorry for Hizdahr at several moments, especially in retrospect. But I just don't care for Dany. It's like she learned all the wrong lessons from her time with Drogo. Seriously. All of them. Instead of being repulsed by the idea of The Stallion that Mounts the World, Dany has evidently decided to use that potential persona as a professional goal for herself. 

On 5/16/2016 at 1:59 PM, Umbelina said:

Go without food for even two days, you don't even have to sleep outside in rags, just go without all food, you can even still have access to clean water.  These people are starving and suffering, masses of them, while their "leaders" play games for more power and money, creating more masses of suffering "nobodies" each week.  Of course they are flocking to him, he's the only one they have that in a very real way, not a soul way, but a body way, trying to save them.  I doubt the give a damn why, although religion is often comforting to people, especially those staring death in the eye.

I agree that the people have a real reason to cling to the HS and his movement, because honestly they've got to find hope somewhere. They'll find it wherever they can. And for them to turn to religion (whether corrupt or well-intentioned), is both historically feasible and believable within the world of this show to me.

I kind of hope the High Sparrow is a true believer. Because honestly that may very well be the scariest and most destructive thing he could possibly be.

[screamin]

On 5/23/2016 at 6:02 AM, paramitch said:

I kind of hope the High Sparrow is a true believer. Because honestly that may very well be the scariest and most destructive thing he could possibly be.

ITA.

On 5/23/2016 at 6:02 AM, paramitch said:

...the writers still feel like she's the Mary Sue that Mounts the World.

Heh.

[John Potts]

Did like the Stark reunion, which felt very real. Liked Sansa growing a backbone too.

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:02 AM, SeanC said:

Why would Royce, as soon as he was away from these guys, not immediately gather his own men and the other lords and arrest Littlefinger?

Because while he (correctly) thinks Robin is an idiot, Robin is his Overlord. The first thing Littlefinger does is butter up Robin, then impugn Royce's loyalty only to defend him to Robin. Royce found himself in the uncomfortable position of relying on Littlefinger's support for his own protection. When Littlefinger then "suggested" that Royce prove his loyalty to Robin by "rescuing" Sansa, he had no option but to agree.

Daario was a real dick with Jorah, but it was in character. So I'm guessing Jorah & Daario (or her young Khaleesi friend) as well as blocking the door soaked the ground in oil (or spirits) before Danny's stunt?

Liked Margery being stronger than Loras. Was the High Sparrow attempting to appropriate Biblical tales to himself until called on it?

Theon - and you thought your LAST homecoming was unwelcoming!

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:11 AM, mac123x said:

Super Ramsey strikes again.  Really, D&D, fuck off with your Ramsey love.

It didn't seem unreasonable to me. He knew (from Theon) what Osha had done last time she was in that situation. And from Osha's viewpoint, it was probably her best shot - Ramsay was going to kill her eventually anyway, at least this way she had a shot at killing him first.

I wonder if that was (absent of Mance in Winterfell from the books) why Ramsay had such a Wildling killing boner and sent the Pink Letter. I guess that's one way to get the Wildlings to march for you...

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:11 AM, mac123x said:

I have no idea what the hell Tyrion is trying to accomplish.  "Get rid of slavery in seven years".  

I may be alone in this, but it's not as if Tyrion gave them anything. Slavery had already been re-established in Astapor and Yunkai - he has to establish control of Mereen before he can do anything about that. Do I expect the Masters will keep their word? Not really, but they'll probably scale back their support for the Sons of the Harpy which will mean there's a "Free City"  established in Slavers' Bay and if the Masters don't keep their word, you can deal with them in 7 years time.

I wouldn't expect Danny to see it that way, but she has a very, "When all you have is a dragon, all problems look burn-able" approach. You need to get some basis for support in Mereen that doesn't rely on the threat of force, or you'll never establish a stable regime once your army leaves.

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:56 AM, that one guy said:

I loved the moment where Cercei says "I agree" to Lady Olenna. Gods help anyone those two unite against.

Except you'd think Cersei would have been onside already - the Tyrells are the ones propping up the Lannister regime. Yet she's too jealous of anyone intruding on her position to see that in undermining them she's weakening her own power.