S04.E22: Lost in the Flood

[benteen]

12 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I said weeks ago that they need to send Thea over to Legends or just let her leave town and go be with Roy somewhere. Arrow does not know how to use her and they are going to continue getting her wrong until I hate her - which will make me sad.

I was seriously watching the Anarky scene thinking "why are they trying to stop him? no really, why?"

And I was very frustrated with Oliver starting to drink the damn crazy juice that somehow Star City equals that whole damn world. Yes Star City suck, but other parts of the world are kind of ok - you know if DD doesn't nuke them. So yea, work on stopping that or protecting the people who are you morons. And let the people whose definition of "hope" is nuke the world and ride the underground ark to populate a new one - after 6 billion people die, all plant and animal life is dead, and the planet has endured a nuclear winter - let them just die because frankly - they are part of the problem Oliver!

Totally agree about Oliver.  When that guy said that Star City had failed them, I wanted Oliver to yell "Then move to another damn city!" 

Considering they knew where Felicity's ex was located, didn't she, Noah and Curtis realize that Dhark would know where they were?

[wonderwall]

Rent is cheap. Cost of living is probably really low.

That's why people don't move :p It's all I can think of

[statsgirl]

No one on Team Darhk has any brains.  Just what you want, a limited gene pool of stupid people.

10 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I was seriously watching the Anarky scene thinking "why are they trying to stop him? no really, why?"

Letting him blow the ark up would have solved so many problems.  Including the Darwin Effect.

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, so I figured out that although I used to like Thea, this season has made her character almost insufferable for me. I think she's better off leaving the team. I find that Thea surprisingly drags down the team, much like Laurel.

I think it's because they're both just muscle and don't really add anything else to the Team, unlike Diggle who has military experience and Lyla/ARGUS.  Yes, Laurel was a lawyer and Thea know how to run a club but those skills never seem to be useful to the writers.

Then I thought, it was the same with Roy, he was just a background fighter, why didn't it bother me then? And then I realized that it was because Roy really was just in the background so he was only used when needed..With Laurel and Thea, they keep writing them in the foreground and they're not interesting enough in themselves to merit it  (e.g. compare Hacker Felicity to Laurel's Black Canary) and so the stories just keep repeating over and over again.

[NumberCruncher]

I'm surprised so many disliked this because I thought it was one of the better S4 episodes. *shrugs*  It was a heck of a lot better than the majority of the crappy post-mid-season stretch.  I, too, love Anarky and I hope we get to see more of him because he's crazy and hilarious.  NM still continues to make Darhk compelling.  The stunts are sooooo much better when they involve fewer people like this.  The Smoak Family/Curtis scenes were the best part of the episode and I thought they did a great job balancing the humor with the serious.  The Thea stuff was really the only weak link because I'm tired of them continuing to make her Malcolm's toy since we've seen this a million times before, show.  

All in all, strong effort.

Edited May 19, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, NoWayOut said:

Even if Diggle and Oliver weren't available, not one person had enough sense to request ARGUS agents, or just anyone that can provide protection, to stand watch outside the loft?. Felicity and Noah lost valuable time, a matter of seconds, in the last episode when Murmur made his way into the security data center and caused them to lose the nuke that eventually hit Havenrock. Protecting the very people who are responsible for saving the world should have been top priority, not saving Thea.

EXACTLY. Protect the people actively thwarting plan to MURDER THE WORLD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than going after one little sister not even in any immediate physical danger. DUMB FOREVER. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

I said weeks ago that they need to send Thea over to Legends or just let her leave town and go be with Roy somewhere. Arrow does not know how to use her and they are going to continue getting her wrong until I hate her - which will make me sad.

I was seriously watching the Anarky scene thinking "why are they trying to stop him? no really, why?"

It really is sad. I really liked Thea up until this season. Lazarus Pit or not, they need to stop what they're doing with her now and get her back to a time when I liked her...with Roy. Also, really funny thing I kind of thought of a few days ago. If you look at the combination of both first names: Thea/Roy, if you say it like that (TheaRoy), it sounds like you're saying The Arrow. Not really on topic, but still funny to me. Anyway, Roy did make Thea a likeable person for me, and it gave her purpose. Plus, I'm pretty sure Roy would have attempted to kick Malcolm's ass instead of letting him guide the people out of the dome.

Yeah, I get for the purposes that Oliver, Diggle and Thea wanted to save at least the daughter, as she is still fairly innocent, but I was cheering Anarky on for blowing the place up.

[Guest]

Did Malcolm go on vacation to top up his tan before Genesis started or do you think it was a spray tan? He also got his hair cut too. Aw, did he think he was gonna meet someone on the ark? 

[Chaser]

I like Donna more when she gets a bit serious. I think CR plays a toned down Donna so well. I love Donna, but sometimes I think they take her a little over the top. I'm enjoying the Noah and Felicity dynamic. I would be okay with trading the Smoak parents for awhile. I liked Curtis a lot this episode. The interactions with Felicity and Noah were great. I laughed out loud at the "This explains you!"

I liked the pair off of the Hackers and the Masks. Unfortunately, I was less interested in the Masks goal. I would have loved if Thea had caught on quickly last episode, got a message out and while GA and Spartan were making their way down she was sabotaging the Truman show. The action was great at least. I did like Cooper this time around. Nolan toned him down. Anarky is fun crazy. 

I was to lazy to turn the channel so I watched the flashbacks. I was distracted by Poppy walking boob first.

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Did Malcolm go on vacation to top up his tan before Genesis started or do you think it was a spray tan? He also got his hair cut too. Aw, did he think he was gonna meet someone on the ark? 

I didn't really notice the tan but I did notice JB's new haircut because it is really flattering on him.  Still hate Malcolm though. :P

[quarks]

Decent setup for the finale, I thought.

Good things:

1. Doggie! And not just a lucky camera shot, either - the camera followed the doggie, giving me a) a reason to cheer on Team Arrow's attempts to save the place. Sure, ok, they were all evil people, but DOGGIE! SAVE THE DOGGIE and b) giving me some minor hope that someone at HIVE had remembered that the biosphere will need more than just corn plants and people to make it post-nuclear destruction.

2. Really liked the decision to bathe the evil underground lair in bright light, while keeping everything around Felicity's apartment and the Arrow Cave dark. Fun visuals there.

3. Smoak family reunion right in the middle of saving the world. I laughed. And Curtis saying that Felicity makes sense to him now. Heh.

4. And Donna Smoak now knows at least part of the truth, yay! I also liked her scene with Felicity and the laundry even if, under the circumstances, it was probably not the best time for that for that scene and it felt a bit squished into an already crowded episode with four separate villains.

5. Between cracking jokes and commenting on Felicity's love life, Curtis. Heh. Actually all of Team Arrow Hacking was fun stuff.

6. Anarky! Loved that he was screwing up everyone's plans - and that he turned out to be one of the more effective good guys of the episode.

7. The flashbacks were still generally terrible, but at least the edits into them were much better.

8. Darhk confronting Felicity, Curtis and Donna in the last few seconds of the episode. I was doubting some of your decisions in this episode, Damien, but going after the best hacker in the world instead of her ex in your second attempt? Much better.

Questionable things:

1. I don't usually get that excited about wardrobe, but even trying to leave aside Felicity's coat, which is difficult, I had a hard time buying that, knowing a nuke had just fallen and she and her father had only stalled Darhk, not stopped him, and knowing that she was just in her own apartment, that she would dress up in a skirt, heels and that top, rather than a more ulitarian pants suit. I realize Arrow is using her to show off various lines of trendy clothing, but she wasn't at Palmer Tech anymore. Jeans would have been much better for that scene.

2. I know that Arrow needed to give Quentin a line and something to do, but I kinda miss the days when Oliver was strategic enough to look for something wrong on that road and note, hey, sewer system issue.

3. Ok, evil H.I.V.E. people. I think we all get that life in Star City has been pretty miserable over the last few years. I can see wanting that to end. But going from, "Wow, life sucks," to "let's help build an enormous underground biodome and then nuke the rest of the planet" does seem a bit much. Why not try to go on a nice trip to the Bahamas, instead? Or move to Coast City. I hear they have excellent pizza.

4. I realize that building huge underground domes complete with suburban houses must be a hugely expensive undertaking, HIVE, but given that you were building this thing in a city that successfully fought off Mirakuru soldiers and a major bioweapon and the League of Assassins, why on earth didn't you create some sort of backup plan - or failing that, not build the thing near Team Arrow? And while I'm on the subject, Malcolm, given that you were the guy who pointed out the importance of backup plans just a few years back in the first season, why didn't you point this out to him?

5. While I'm criticizing Malcolm, I know you are evil and all that, dude, and that Damien Darhk now has superpowers yadda yadda, but the second Damien announced that he was going to destroy everything was the second you should have made some attempt to stop him.

6. Not sure I'm entirely comfortable with Donna asking Noah to leave again - right after she'd watched Noah help save the world and right after she'd had to confess to Felicity about a few family truths. And I'm definitely not comfortable with Noah just agreeing to leave - he's clearly still fond of his daughter, and aware that H.I.V.E. and Damien Darhk are still out there. He's more than aware of what H.I.V.E. is capable of, and although I get that Arrow didn't want to pay him to appear in the season finale, I wish that had been worked out a bit differently.

7. Portions of Star City burst into flames and sink into the ground again, creating yet another crater in the city - and not only does Felicity's apartment not shake from the ground tremors this definitely would have created, but she doesn't demand a specific explanation - nor do the three people right behind her. I guess they were assuming they would hear this on the local news? (By the way, local news lady! Good to see you discussing more national events!)

8. On that note, I'm with Curtis' mom. Why is anyone living in Star City?

9. And also, to repeat, given everything that's happening in Star City, why would anyone think that being under it would be safe? Surely it would be safer to be under some other city? H.I.V.E. people, you have great interior decorators, but I'm not only disappointed in your fashion sense, I'm also questioning your common sense.

10. How did all of those people climb out of a single sewer so quickly?

11. This makes what, the third Big Bad to walk into the loft? Fourth, if we include Malcolm? (Ra's, Vandal Savage and Damien.) I know it's a really awesome loft and those large fireplaces are gorgeous, and that you're on a show that hates building new sets, but really, I think you guys need to find a new place. It's even easier to break into than the Arrow Cave, and that's really saying something.

Bad things:

1. Arrow, if I must endure you continually reusing sets and now upscale suburban location shots, can you kinda not lampshade it in the script by pointing out how much your current location looks like the Ivy Town location?

2. The whole flashback thing about Poppy killing whoever that was to gain ultimate power and control and take down the Russian government or whatever might have had a touch more emotional resonance for me if I'd actually known who the guy was and if I hadn't just gone to get a drink.

3. In related bad things, Poppy and Reiter are still with us. This evil idol can't do anything right. Not even ridding us of boring characters!

4. Sigh, Thea is brainwashed again. Sigh, she can fight it off with a pep talk in a single episode. Here's a thought: let's let Thea go without getting brainwashed or drugged even once for all of season five. You can do it, Arrow! Really, you can!

5. Really hoping that Felicity has more emotional fallout from last week's nuclear bombing. I get that she was distracted this episode by needing to take down Rubicon more permanently and by her parents, but the impact somehow seemed muted.

[wonderwall]

Felicity LOVES running into Oliver's arms to thank him that he's not dead :') Love this parallel:

http://felicitys.tumblr.com/post/144583374571/thanks-for-not-being-dead

[lion10]

This episode was pretty bad.  Why the fuck were we given 30 second snippets of flashbacks disperse throughout the episode?  It made me so disconnectecthe island story AND the main story.  I feel like the season still hasn't given a proper reason for why Damien Darhk wants to destroy the world.  Did he experience some personal tragedy, did a seagull steal his ice cream cone?  What could possibly be motivating him to nuke the whole world?  The hacking scene was pretty bad as well.  Sparks flying out a computer when you hack it hard enough?  Is Arrow trying to be at least kinda-sorta grounded anymore or have the writers just given up?  As much as I like Felicity in this episode, half of the episode should't have been devoted to family drama.  I mean on one half, we've got Oliver and Diggle trying to rescue a brainwashed Thea from Damien's ark and Damien threatening to unleash a nuclear holocaust on the world (again, why?) and on the other half we've got Felicity's parents hashing out why they split up.  

Speaking of, it's pretty messed up that Donna just took Felicity away from her dad like that.  At least try to talk it out, he seems like an okay guy.

[wonderwall]

Just now, lion10 said:

This episode was pretty bad.  Why the fuck were we given 30 second snippets of flashbacks disperse throughout the episode?  It made me so disconnectecthe island story AND the main story.  I feel like the season still hasn't given a proper reason for why Damien Darhk wants to destroy the world.  Did he experience some personal tragedy, did a seagull steal his ice cream cone?  What could possibly be motivating him to nuke the whole world?  The hacking scene was pretty bad as well.  Sparks flying out a computer when you hack it hard enough?  Is Arrow trying to be at least kinda-sorta grounded anymore or have the writers just given up?  As much as I like Felicity in this episode, half of the episode should't have been devoted to family drama.  I mean on one half, we've got Oliver and Diggle trying to rescue a brainwashed Thea from Damien's ark and Damien threatening to unleash a nuclear holocaust on the world (again, why?) and on the other half we've got Felicity's parents hashing out why they split up.  

Speaking of, it's pretty messed up that Donna just took Felicity away from her dad like that.  At least try to talk it out, he seems like an okay guy.

This season's big baddie is a magical dude and has people with glowy eyes... And last season, this show introduced the Lazarus Pit and miracle tea...

I'd say Arrow gave up on grounded LONG ago, so it'd be a fool's errand to look for grounded this season

[AES13]

I thought the episode was fun but I had 2 major problems: Malcolm wasn't killed by Thea immediately and the tone felt completely off to me following on the heels of a town being nuked.  The witty banter was cute but felt out of place considering the stakes at hand.

[Guest]

Damien's daughter low-key looks like one of the kids from Village of the Damned. I'm scared.

[AyChihuahua]

4 minutes ago, lion10 said:

Speaking of, it's pretty messed up that Donna just took Felicity away from her dad like that.  At least try to talk it out, he seems like an okay guy.

I'm pretty much Tom Amandes biggest fan, but didn't Noah kinda threaten to murder a bunch of people in his last appearance? I'm not sure how serious he was, but that's not really the kind of guy you want around your young daughter.

[Actionmage]

Well, that was interesting.

Likes:

*Everything Felicity, Friends and Family-- more of that in dollops here and there. EK, CR, TA and EBR were on point and gave the episode the heart and emotional heft it needed.

*Anarchy-- he brings the weirdo, whack-a-mole vibe to the proceedings that I appreciated, as well as others. I'm down with the creepy "Mommy" stuff because he explained it last episode. It makes sense.

*A Bad Guy actually died!-- I don't care that she was the freakin' mayor; Ms. Adams was Mrs. Evil and got the position by shenanigans.  I have other feelings, but that's in a minute.

*That Noah and Donna aren't all wrong or all right, wrt Felicity. While I am not thrilled that Donna took it upon herself to shoo Noah out of Felicity's life now, I don't fully believe Noah just left either. Felicity inherited stubborn from both sides.

*That Shot--Oliver did some sort of jump-swing back-shoot minion with an arrow. I loved that maneuver! I liked the whole run-and-gun sequence.

Dislikes:

*Of all the Bad Guys around this season, the first death that seemed to take was Ruve's?  Not Malcolm or Brick or Murmur? (Okay, keep Brick; I like Vinnie Jones.) Not cool. ( If I am wrong about death taking a villain permanently before Ruve, then I apologize in advance.) Alas, the fatal shoulder strike takes another TV character.

*I thought we told you pretty vociferously, Show, that no one wanted Merlyn to destroy the town due to Tommy's mom's death. Why are we being treated to a real-time tantrum/grieving process with added magical crap? Yeah, I like NM, but I don't want to go through poor Star City having to continually dig itself out of the muck five-years running. Star City isn't Gotham, so stop makin' like it is. Star City has crime, but I don't know why there's even a city any more. The government would probably re-locate those who couldn't move themselves.  For a show that tries to show hope in the face of darkness, You have gone a bit too 'darkness before the dawn'. Just sayin'.

*Malcolm Merlyn is breathing. With both of his original lungs. Someone please do something about that stat. ( Lurve John Barrowman, but really? Malcolm can go last season.)

*Has anyone checked on freaking Quentin? Between staring at the depressed real estate and Donna relivin' the bad old times, our favorite cop was underground in the middle of town! He did not answer in reply to Felicity's 'Is anyone out there?!' call. If Q was on comms, he should have heard and spoke up. He better be safe or at least Not Dead, Show. ::eyes tables for flipping::

 

Oh! Just had a wish for next week: Noah and Quentin come to rescue Donna!! And both men survive!

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, lion10 said:

 Is Arrow trying to be at least kinda-sorta grounded anymore or have the writers just given up? 

You can blame The Flash for the fact that the show isn't really grounded anymore. It should be but they opened up a world of alternate universes and doppelgängers and magic and impossibilities. 

That said, I think now that we've done the magic crap this season, I'm hopeful s5 will return to basics.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Guest

[lion10]

9 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

This season's big baddie is a magical dude and has people with glowy eyes... And last season, this show introduced the Lazarus Pit and miracle tea...

I'd say Arrow gave up on grounded LONG ago, so it'd be a fool's errand to look for grounded this season

The way I look at it is when you introduce magical stuff or pseudo-science, you establish rules so we can know what's a big deal or not when a person does magic but you keep everything else (such as people's reactions to events) semi-realistic like it's actually happening in the real world or you risk things becoming Looney Tunes.  You want to introduce telekinesis and resurrection to your TV show?  Cool.  But don't start to disregard everyday physics outside of those fantastical elements.  So when I see a computer spitting sparks when someone hacks it, it breaks immersion for me.

 

Edit:  I swear Malcolm's robot hand gets faker looking every single time I see it.  It was also stuck in the "limp wrist" position the entire episode, so that's nice.

Edited May 19, 2016 by lion10

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, lion10 said:

So when I see a computer spitting sparks when someone hacks it, it breaks immersion for me.

I think they mentioned they sent power surges. I can kind of see that, like hacking the power grid. On a comic book show, anyway.

[apinknightmare]

10 hours ago, lion10 said:

 So when I see a computer spitting sparks when someone hacks it, it breaks immersion for me.

You must've been having issues with the show for awhile, because the Clock King managed to blow up all the electronics in the lair via hack in season 2. There were sparks errywhere.

Edited May 19, 2016 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

Just now, lion10 said:

The way I look at it is when you introduce magical stuff or pseudo-science, you establish rules so we can know what's a big deal or not when a person does magic but you keep everything else (such as people's reactions to events) semi-realistic like it's actually happening in the real world or you risk things becoming Looney Tunes.  You want to introduce telekinesis and resurrection to your TV show?  Cool.  But don't start to disregard everyday physics outside of those fantastical elements.  So when I see a computer spitting sparks when someone hacks it, it breaks immersion for me.

IDK... We've seen Arrow disregard everyday physics/common sense quite a bit... 

• Oliver shooting an arrow to the moon and disappearing
• Oliver catching Laurel by the arms mid fall when her arms would've actually ripped off
• That neat trick this season when Oliver shooting a wire and Laurel rolling down from it before the wire fastened

It's honestly all for show, nothing more... And I can see why it would be visually appealing to see sparks instead of seeing the computer just shut down

[way2interested]

For all of the ups and downs in the episode (and personally, I had more ups than downs for this one), I still liked this episode more than 322, and it did get me excited for 423, so mission accomplished there. Overall, barring certain plots and off-moments, I'm going into 423 feeling like I've enjoyed this season more than last year, so I'm on cloud nine compared to last year with how depressing it was.

[NumberCruncher]

4 minutes ago, lion10 said:

The way I look at it is when you introduce magical stuff or pseudo-science, you establish rules so we can know what's a big deal or not when a person does magic but you keep everything else (such as people's reactions to events) semi-realistic like it's actually happening in the real world or you risk things becoming Looney Tunes.  You want to introduce telekinesis and resurrection to your TV show?  Cool.  But don't start to disregard everyday physics outside of those fantastical elements.  So when I see a computer spitting sparks when someone hacks it, it breaks immersion for me.

Yeah, but they did the exact same thing back in season 2 episode 14.  Remember the Clock King blowing up the computers in the lair?  In fact, the S2 Mirakuru storyline was the first time the show lost its grounded realism so the stuff this season is hardly new.

[AyChihuahua]

I overall kind of liked it, I think? I hated the dome stuff, but the action there was cool (loved the jump/backwards arrowing move) and I do like Anarky. Hated every person in the dome. Kill 'em all. I liked pretty much all the aboveground stuff. Once again, Oliver was fairly dumb, but he wasn't quite S3 finale levels of dumb, so I can deal. Loved Felicity, Curtis, Noah, and the hacker battle v. Cooper. NM great as always. I officially and permanently hate the repetitive Thea stuff and Thea/MM bullshit, and seriously, the dome people are murderous assholes who should copulate themselves. 

Kinda sad how much I grade Arrow episodes on a curve nowadays.

[lion10]

1 minute ago, NumberCruncher said:

Yeah, but they did the exact same thing back in season 2 episode 14.  Remember the Clock King blowing up the computers in the lair?  In fact, the S2 Mirakuru storyline was the first time the show lost its grounded realism so the stuff this season is hardly new.

It's not like everything has to be realistic, I'm saying that have fantastical elements in your story, awesome.  But don't, for example, have chairs floating in the air because "Who cares?  We've got a guy who can shoot fire from his hands and you're worried about some floating chairs?".  Because while I have no frame of reference for a guy who can shoot fire and thus will except any kind of pseudo-science handwave the writers throw at me, I KNOW for an absolute fact that chairs don't float three feet in the air.  I've got a frame of reference for them so when I see them floating and the characters in the show just shrug it off or never acknowledge what's happening, then it breaks my immersion.  I get that the "immersion breaking point" is different for everyone though.  

[katifantastico]

Ok, so I can't be the only person that caught that they just brought The 100 into Arrowverse right? I swear Diggle mentioned Mount Weather.

[Guest]

I enjoyed Curtis in this episode and one thing I do like is that they haven't rushed him into his hero status which was one of the biggest problems I had with Ray last season. Aside from removing Felicity from the team just so Curtis could finally be introduced to everyone in 417, I don't think Felicity has really been used to prop him this season and there seems to be no hurry to make him Mr Terrific. We know it's coming next season and I feel like we might get a little wink/nudge moment in 423 but aside from that, I like how they're just building his character a little bit, laying the groundwork. 

[BunsenBurner]

7 minutes ago, katifantastico said:

Ok, so I can't be the only person that caught that they just brought The 100 into Arrowverse right? I swear Diggle mentioned Mount Weather.

Mt. Weather is the command center when a national emergency takes place in the US.  

[Nostariel]

8 minutes ago, katifantastico said:

Ok, so I can't be the only person that caught that they just brought The 100 into Arrowverse right? I swear Diggle mentioned Mount Weather.

Mount Weather is a real place. As Dig mentioned, it's the nuclear bunker built for upper level government officials to retreat to in case of nuclear war. 

[InsertWordHere]

Mount Weather is real, but now I'm envisioning an Arrow/100 crossover where Dhark's nuclear armageddon works and the Grounders are the people who went underground. 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

For perhaps the first time since, oh I don't know, the first season, I thought the flashbacks were marginally interesting, not nearly as intrusive as usual (because most of what was going on in the dome was nonsense), and yet somehow still completely pointless.

I think it was because Glen Winter was directing the episode.

For as pointless and pedestrian most of the show was because of plot & script. Glen Winter did a really good job filming the episode. The transitions were great, the flashbacks as a result blended back into the show.

[Xenith22]

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

She was perfectly safe in the dome with the rest of the Vichy assholes. If everybody else in the whole entire world would have died, she'd have been fine. I don't understand why he went down to save her in the first place instead of guarding the people who were actively thwarting the big bad.

Except Oliver did not know she was safe. All he knew was that he could not reach her and then Felicity got a text from Thea that simply said she was being held prisoner by HIVE and Merlyn - 911.  (Malcolm arrived before she could provide any more details) I can not exactly fault Oliver for thinking that maybe she was not safe, because although Malcolm would likely not kill her or want to hurt her too bad Darkh is currently like a crazy demigod planning to end the world.  There is no guarantee that he would not kill Thea at anytime and even Malcolm would have been powerless to stop him.  Felicity even essentially urged Oliver of the danger Thea could be in and essentially sent him off on this rescue mission.

Also keep in mind this is not long after Oliver just lost Laurel whom he deeply cared for, and of course this is not long after Felicity dumped him.  Sure she came back to the team in light of the current situation, but she still made her feelings known to him that they could not continue to work together so once the current crisis is over and Laurel has been avenged it's possible he realizes Felicity may leave his life again for good.  Thea is Oliver's last surviving family member.  Can you really fault him for feeling a need to save her and not wanting to lose one of the last important people in his life right now?  For that matter keep in mind that the only way to fight against Darkh's powers is by thinking happy thoughts.  Would knowing his sister is a prisoner and potentially dead at any time not be a potential hindrance to that?  There was nothing he could do at the loft other than stand around and wait to potentially be ambushed.  Really it should have been Argus that had an small army watching Felicity's loft since apparently there are no other competent hackers in the US capable of working on this situation...

Totally agree about Oliver.  When that guy said that Star City had failed them, I wanted Oliver to yell "Then move to another damn city!"

Speaking of those people once they are back with the main civilization is any of them going to report that Malcolm Meryln is alive and palling around with the Green Arrow? (Yeah I think we all know the answer to that...)

Quote

11. This makes what, the third Big Bad to walk into the loft? Fourth, if we include Malcolm? (Ra's, Vandal Savage and Damien.) I know it's a really awesome loft and those large fireplaces are gorgeous, and that you're on a show that hates building new sets, but really, I think you guys need to find a new place. It's even easier to break into than the Arrow Cave, and that's really saying something.

Poor Slade must be feeling left out, all he got to see was Laurel's dingy apartment.  That needs to be rectified.

Quote

*Of all the Bad Guys around this season, the first death that seemed to take was Ruve's?  Not Malcolm or Brick or Murmur? (Okay, keep Brick; I like Vinnie Jones.) Not cool. ( If I am wrong about death taking a villain permanently before Ruve, then I apologize in advance.) Alas, the fatal shoulder strike takes another TV character.

The first major bad guy death was Conklin on the island.  If you are not counting Flashbacks then how about Andy Diggle?

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I was seriously watching the Anarky scene thinking "why are they trying to stop him? no really, why?"

Well I mean this week Anarky planned to not only murder Darkh's daughter (whom they do not know is evil) but also to blow up the dome under the city, which was not only going to kill all the people in the dome but countless others in Star City up above?  Speaking of that, I am really not happy with how Thea seemed to brush off responsibility for that.  I'm pretty sure it was her carelessly fired arrow that did it, so her gallows humor seemed really inappropriate after potentially having killed that many innocent people.

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I'm pretty much Tom Amandes biggest fan, but didn't Noah kinda threaten to murder a bunch of people in his last appearance? I'm not sure how serious he was, but that's not really the kind of guy you want around your young daughter.

Except Felicity is not a young kid anymore.  She is an adult capable of making her own decisions, and she knows full well what Noah is capable of (and if there is something particularly horrendous she does not know then Donna could have told her everything so she could make a more informed decision).  I don't fault Donna for leaving him in the past, but Felicity deserved to be allowed to make her own decision as to whether she wants to pursue any kind of relationship with her father now.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Xenith22

[quarks]

Ok, everyone, I am now freaking out:

Diggle just mentioned Mount Weather in this episode.

The promos for The 100 showed that at least one scene of that episode will be taking place on the Arrowverse's favorite outdoor staircase. 

.....Damien Darhk is so going to be showing up on tomorrow's night episode assuring Clarke that her only possible strategy is to use this cheap looking idol, isn't he?

[wonderwall]

12 minutes ago, quarks said:

Ok, everyone, I am now freaking out:

Diggle just mentioned Mount Weather in this episode.

The promos for The 100 showed that at least one scene of that episode will be taking place on the Arrowverse's favorite outdoor staircase. 

.....Damien Darhk is so going to be showing up on tomorrow's night episode assuring Clarke that her only possible strategy is to use this cheap looking idol, isn't he?

Idk if you're joking or not :p But if you're not. I think it was just a coincidence!

[La Dee Da]

So much hugging in this episode! I thought it was serviceable - the chase scene and hacking duelling were good, Damian descending to no fucks given mode was effective - but kind of distracting.  Like, if the dome dwellers weren't brainwashed, how did they volunteer for either HIVE or the ark? Is there an evil craigslist out there? Given what happens in the flashbacks, how could Oliver possibly forget about the idol (they need to write in a concussion for him in next year's flashbacks)?  Does Felicity stock a local microbrewery or a big label beer in her kitchen? 

Regarding Malcolm, maaaaaaybe both Oliver and Thea threatening him is foreshadowing for the finale?  Given he's firmly and actively entrenched in HIVE, it's beyond believable that they'd let him go AND turn to him to save people.  And that he does it - he needs to stay unredeemingly bad at this point and then vanquished for good. Preferably by Thea, so she can have some agency.  

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I don't know why but I feel like Donna is still hiding something? I get that she wants to protect her daughter but I found it kinda odd that she asked Noah to leave. Felicity is 26 years old. She's old enough to decide who she wants in her life. Ugh at meddling parents.

That felt underwhelming - there must be something more to why Donna felt the need to leave.  Ooooooh - maybe he was involved with whomever will be the season 5 bad guys?

[Happy Harpy]

This episode had many good things going for it (and was still better for the dead weight gone) but it felt disjointed. I was watching two different shows again, a  family business in hacking dramedy and an end of the world tense thriller. At one point, the writers need to choose their adventure imo.

I know that they tried to settle that Felicity compartimentalized Havenrock, with the first scene at the loft, but ten thousands of people dying should have had more resonance and more effect on her and I think that's why something was off for me. The Smoak family scenes were the best imo and I enjoyed them tremendously but at the same time, they were out of place. They should have happened before the nuke went off. That said, I like that for once on TV imo, you see why a divorced couple was married and why they divorced...and why (imo at least) getting back together would be the mother all of bad ideas. T.Amandes and C.Ross have great chemistry but I don't see how their characters could ever reconcile, too much bad blood. I find it realistic.

I didn't like the parallel between Oliver/Felicity and Noah/Donna because the former are a team, a unit, first and foremost; whereas the latter are a case of opposites attract with nothing in common. I get that it might have been just about the lie, but still. And I take it as a personal offense that my Donna could be compared in any way or shape, even implicitly, to vapid BM.

Also, OTA wasn't together enough. I loved all the Diggle and Oliver on the field (LOVED IT!) but the Power of the Three was mostly missing. Oliver and Felicity's hug was a nice callback to the S2 one.

Thea brainwashed, must be Wednesday. Seriously, give the girl her team (ROY) an agenda, an agency. She deserves better than being a pawn for Oliver and Malcolm to save while reluctantly working together. Anarky's mommy obsession with Thea is the only entertaining (if creepy) side of the character for me. I don't know why he reminds me of Ramsay Bolton on GoT, maybe it's the psycho hobbit thing.

Don't tell me that Dahrk will not destroy the world because his daughter is alive.

More flashbacks = less interesting episode. It's mathematical at this point.

Also, Diggle pointing the gun at Malcolm's head was the funniest Diggle scene since the "black driver" one liner in S2. It cracked me up.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[TrueMyth]

Mount Weather also shows up in The X-files.  It's a fun genre factoid.

I was okay with this episode, but I didn't like having Team Felicity and Team Oliver separated for so much of the episode.

I'm also WTFing regarding HIVE's base of operations.  I could handwave the nexus chamber under city hall being exposed to the nuclear fallout, because DD would totally be resistant to that if his plan had gone off.  However, it now seems that the HIVE base is pretty far removed from the bubble and not even monitoring feeds?  DD took way too look to find out his wife was in danger.  Also, that place was still standing after the bubble collapsed.  Both are evidence that the HIVE mission command was not attached to the bubble in any way.  Why would you want to trigger a nuclear blast from a place that was totally  unprotected?  I mean, besides DD?  I know Cooper was mostly in it to try to beat Felicity, but he's smarter than that too, right?

Unless they pull an Undertaking and DD has a second bunker set up?

Edited May 19, 2016 by TrueMyth

[ottoDbusdriver]

Shouldn't have the Thunderdome been a lot deeper ... and tougher to break in to ... if it was going to last for hundreds of years until the surface was habitable ?

And what was with the Eye of Sauron UI that Noah, Felicity and Curtis were working on before they got spiked ?

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I don't think I totally agree. They were located in a super obvious place, Felicity's HOME, and they were 100% thwarting Rubicon, the main part of DD's plot. Protecting them should have been job #1. Instead, as always, Oliver only cared about Thea, who wasn't even in any immediate physical danger.

I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with his obsession with her. 

Thea had been missing and out of touch for over a day as a mad man tried to destroy the world.  I think it was the right time to go looking for her, especially when she was showing up still in Star City.   Losing Laurel is too fresh so that's added into the mix, and DD just said he wasn't going to kill them because he wanted them to die in the fallout so it seemed at least for a while, Dahrk wasn't coming after them.  So they went looking for their missing teammate.  They didn't know she wasn't in immediate danger when they broke into the bunker.  Even when they realized it was an Ark, it made sense to try and rescue her. 

BUT once they realized that Thea was safe (brainwashed but safe) and they realized they were overwhelmed by numbers, yeah, I really wanted Oliver to be smart and say they had to leave her for now until they took care of the bigger problems.  Then he could still bump into her on his way out and snap her out of it without seeming like he was risking the world when she wasn't in danger.

BUT once he did stop DD, Thea would no longer be safe.  She'd become either another way for DD to hurt Oliver or a means to control him. So while I was originally put out, I saw the reason of not leaving her behind eventually.   

 

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Did Malcolm go on vacation to top up his tan before Genesis started or do you think it was a spray tan? He also got his hair cut too. Aw, did he think he was gonna meet someone on the ark? 

The Genesis Spa - a full works salon. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And what was with the Eye of Sauron UI that Noah, Felicity and Curtis were working on before they got spiked ?

Wasn't that the Brother Eye symbol that Cooper used in s3?

[SleepDeprived]

Oh, look! There's a big hole in the Glades again. And the city just keeps on having all these chaotic things happening to it, especially during May. Guess that renaming thing and dedicating it to Palmer to help change Starling City's image was for nothing. Way to go, City Council! You spent all those tax dollars getting new signs, banners, uniforms, badges, etc., and made all the businesses spend more money to change their brochures, flyers, calling cards, letterheads, stationaries, etc. and your City still ended up a focal point of some armageddon-type event. Granted, a crater in the middle of the city isn't as bad as the nuclear wasteland that Havenrock became but still.

Man, I thought TPTB already learned from the stupid that was last year's Thea brainwashing plot to kill Sara. Lol at me, I guess! How else is Malcolm going to actually be relevant to Thea's life (and the show) other than through dumb plot-twisty nonsense? Ugh, Malcolm.

The Kuttler/Smoaks featuring Curtis Holt were, by far, the best part of this episode. Great character moments and very entertaining to watch. I laughed quite a bit at the back and forth between Donna and Noah--and the notion that alcoholic beverages are a necessity when they're both in a room together. I hope Noah comes back even though Donna really doesn't want him around. I want him around, Donna. Tom Amandes is great!

The fight scenes continue to be pretty tight these past few episodes. I love that the stunt dudes have finally remembered that Oliver should be the focal point of the fights again, which is awesome. And the hack-off between Cooper and the trio of Noah, Felicity, and Curtis was exciting to me. Okay, it was just some sparks and stuff but the furious typing and fast talking was legit making me feel tense during the explody power surges scene. (Cooper still sucks, though. I still think he's kinda bland as a villain.)

Anarky actually making sense again and sort of, in his own revenge-y way, helping Team GA fight the big bad evils. Nice. Yeah, he's also creepy and evil himself, and he keeps calling Thea "Mommy" but I think I really like the dude. Count me in among those totally confused on whether or not I should be cheering Anarky on.

Ah, Ruve. She was a shitty Mayor and absolutely evil but I did like the relationship between her and Damian. The Darhks may be evil but there's no denying that they're completely devoted to their family. Sure, Damian is even more determined to burn the world now that Ruve is dead and he can't bear living without her that everyone gets to live except for her, but I guess that's sorta sweet of him? Horrible for the entire rest of the world but I'm sure Ruve approves of his intentions in the afterlife.

[BkWurm1]

I didn't love this episode.  It's partly too many flashbacks and partly too much separation between the teams.  Normally even if they are separate, they stay connected via the coms and I really missed that dynamic.  There was just too little OTA not to mention too little O/F.  But yeah, it's the transitional episode and a quick hug before going to do their separate missions is so much better than Oliver leaving them to die in a cage. 

It was very disappointing that Thea instead of playing nice, pushed Malcolm to drug her.  He was giving her another chance but she pretty much flat out said, you'll have to drug me!  He's going to figure that out quick enough, why rush so fast into that?  So that part was on her and may explain why she does always have to be rescued.  Still, glad she's didn't go evil, lol.  I do wish Oliver had just bopped her on the head and slung her over his shoulder rather than try to reason with her.  Stick her in a holding cell until the pills wear off.  More pressing issues dude. 

I'm fine with Oliver wanting the people to evacuate but I'm not really fine with all those fully complicit individuals roaming free.  Apart from the kids, these were not innocent people.  They are just as guilty of those tens of thousands of deaths in Havenrock as DD.  These are bad people who don't give a fuck.  Not knowing who they are is scary. 

I wonder if they are going to say that there was nothing built up where there is now a crater in Star City.  Oliver said there was nothing there when he was tracking Thea.  It's a stretch but maybe the destruction was limited to abandoned warehouses. 

I agree that Donna was meddling where she didn't need to but I get her instinct to keep protecting Felicity even if Felicity is more than capable of protecting the world.  I also was ok with Noah vanishing.  He sees the threat as over and it's in his instincts to keep to the shadows. 

I think he did want to keep in contact but he also I think realized that Donna isn't wrong, that he's hasn't changed and currently has no plans to change.  Which is why I don't think he and Oliver are a good parallel at all.  Oliver has changed, he just needs to change more.  Oliver sent William away IMO mostly out of fear.  Maybe a valid fear since he wasn't going to have the luxary that Diggle had of always keeping his child close and watching over him, but Oliver also was ready to step back into his kids life once he was of age to decide if the risk was worth it.  Noah walked away and stayed away and only approached Felicity when her life was not only very public and successful, but when he realized how much like him she was.  It felt more about his ego than a real caring.  He isn't without feelings but he compartmentalizes and doesn't see any reason why he should stop being the criminal if he wants to dabble in being the father. 

I was actually pleased that Felicity didn't yell at her mom about what she did.  I'm sure there will be conversations but she wasn't going to let her mom think she was going to stop caring.  I am glad to skip that melodrama. 

Still, I hated that stuff because, yeah, I do think it's going to come into play with Felicity and Oliver and if she ever equates her mom lying to her about her dad and Oliver lying to her about William I will scream.  The parallel might be valid if her problem was Oliver sending his kid away but that was never the issue.  I would be happy though if all this makes Felicity see that while Oliver did majorly screw up, he really isn't anything like her father and can be trusted to do better. 

I think this is one of those episodes that I didn't love while I watched but that I will get a lot of pleasure in breaking it down and examining a lot of character motivation. 

And there were some good stunts. Daylight really helps.

The question of multiple cities underground seems reasonable.  Ruve' called it Tevat Noah.  Somehow the designation (and the fact that DD was not at all impacted when it blew up) made me think they needed to have a way to easily differentiate between them.  Or maybe Tevat Noah is Hebrew for Ark of Noah, lol.   

[BkWurm1]

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Anarky actually making sense again and sort of, in his own revenge-y way, helping Team GA fight the big bad evils. Nice. Yeah, he's also creepy and evil himself, and he keeps calling Thea "Mommy" but I think I really like the dude. Count me in among those totally confused on whether or not I should be cheering Anarky on.

My one issue with him is his skill level at fighting.  Three of them should be able to smear him into the ground.  I will at least concede the show now expects us to accept that he is a super duper good fighter since it keeps coming up again and again.  I might have to rewatch his origin episode.  Maybe something will point to him being a better fighter than I keep thinkin he should be.  His pride in his mommy is super creepy but I'm kind of eating it up. 

Anyone else upset that DD didn't just kill Cooper for his failure?  For a moment I thought he had so, yeah, I was bummed when he stood up.  I did like that the show has built up a deep enough cast of background characters that they could bring him in and it very much made sense to the story.

[Password]

I'm surprised so many on this thread didn't like the episode. At first I was skeptical of (for reasons I'll get into) but in the end I was really excited by the episode.

Let me just say, MALCOLM NEEDS TO DIE. I'm done with that man, I've been done since I found out he drugged Thea in SEASON 3. To find out he did it again and Thea didn't even take a shot at him? This episode would've been A+ if Malcolm's head was lobbed off. 

The reason I was skeptical of this episode at first was because of the Smoaks and Curtis. The tone during the first 5 minutes was all wrong, and I might be the only person on this forum who can't stand Curtis. He's really irritating to me. But as the episode continued, boy, I loved Donna and Noah's interaction. I liked Felicity telling her mom that she works with the GA, I loved how Donna felt out of the loop when Felicity and Noah were being Father-Daughter-y and I loved that Felicity really felt like an unfortunate doll pulled between 2 parents who are divorced. It seemed very real, good job writers. It's my head cannon that Donna threatened Noah with leaving him several times before she had enough and took the plunge. I did not like Donna telling Noah to leave again. Felicity is old enough to make her own decisions now Donna. Naughty.

I really didn't like the parallel the show tried to draw between Noah and Oliver's actions. The situations really are not the same because Oliver and Felicity were partners in everything and Donna and Noah were at each other's throats about their lifestyles. Oliver did change his secret keeping ways (until plot dictated otherwise) whereas it seems Noah didn't make an effort to change at all because when we first saw him he blackmailed Roy into stealing something for him, then tried to steal from his own daughter. They are trying to draw the wrong parallel here. Perhaps they could've done something with Donna leaving Noah for Felicity's own good and Oliver sending his son away for his own good but William is irrelevant right now. Felicity does NOT need to accept that Oliver will lie sometimes and not change. NO NO NO. 

THEA BEING DRUGGED AGAIN! I want to reach through my screen and hit Oliver and Thea for not offing that Merlyn. Did anyone see when Malcolm put his hand on Thea's shoulder after saying "we all know why you can't kill me" or some such nonsense. He makes me so mad. Both Oliver and Thea cause themselves heartache by not taking Malcolm down. Diggle took his brother out after his string of bad actions, why is Malcolm a special snowflake?

I was so touched when Damien Dhark got emotional because his wife was dead. Guy has a heart. But I adored Anarky for killing Ruvé. That was fantastic and I want more of crazy pants Lonnie Machin and his "mommy" calling ways. I can't say I disagree with Machin for wanting to destroy the dome, but...yeah ok fine there were people in there. People that apparently weren't drugged? Does this mean Oliver's going to have an "I am Iron Man" moment? So he can be their symbol of hope and blah blah just move to a different city. Or country if you will.

The action was fantastic this episode. Oliver flew and shot an arrow! Yay for #FlyingArrow!

The flashbacks...Poppy is evil and for a moment I was glad she was dead but then...Poppy is evil.

Tight story telling, 3 plots only and it was great. No more 15 plot episodes Arrow, I really liked it.

[BkWurm1]

Something I had forgotten.  This whole thing is Ray's fault.   If he hadn't done research on the power uses of Dwarf Star Alloy, then DD wouldn't have been able to power his dome of doom with it. 

[wonderwall]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Something I had forgotten.  This whole thing is Ray's fault.   If he hadn't done research on the power uses of Dwarf Star Alloy, then DD wouldn't have been able to power his dome of doom with it. 

GOD DAMMIT, RAY.

Even when he's not on the show he's still the worst

[Xenith22]

I also wasn't too terribly impressed with the episode as a whole. The Felicity and Friends sections were entertaining.

Come on CW Seed just make it happen already...guaranteed hit.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I wish that Oliver and Diggle had gone down into the dome to destroy it - which is a pretty good strategic decision, since the madman is less likely to destroy the earth if there's no way to repopulate, generally speaking - rather than racing down there to save Thea. So close, show. So far away.

Hey, I was hoping they would actually flood the place since the title has been released.

Damn it, show, you had one job. Have Oliver off Poppy in this episode. And now she's there until the bitter end and from the looks of it, it's very possible that it even won't be Oliver doing it and transitioning to dark BratvaOliver. Instead, it's entirely possible that Poppy and Reiter will just take each other out. Snooze.

The dome plot shone the light on two problems.

1. Nuking does not fit this show. Because while I was thinking of how Operation Save Dumbo really put a halt on things, I wondered what Dig and Oliver could have done if they weren't there. ... Crickets. They don't have the skill set to deal with this and apart from standing around at the loft, there really wasn't much for them to do.
2. Thea needs to be off the team stat and probably permanently. First of all, she got turned awfully quickly. Like, she got one dose of the medicine. It was implied that Alex has been taking them for a while before they took hold. Secondly, all Alex did under the influence was play cruise director. Thea threatened her brother's life multiple times! What if the damn pills actually reveal people's basic nature? If so, Thea's is really not conducive to keeping peace and order.

5 hours ago, hogwash said:

Donna and Noah snipping at each other was so funny. What the heck did Noah do? It can't just be the criminal hacking stuff. I'm so confused and curious. It's all I can think about. Is it a comic book thing?

I find it completely believable that it was that. He was a criminal and it is both possible and likely that his activities put his family in danger. Additionally, Felicity showed the same abilities and seems to have been her Dad's biggest fan as a kid. It makes sense that Donna would worry what it could lead to.

5 hours ago, Orion said:

The Green Arrow costume should never be out in the light of day.  I know everyone here complains about the princess puff sleeve shoulder pads but that leather hood gives a terrible profile.

I hate the hood too. The old one looked so good on him, this one is just awful. But I will say that I loved the flying arrow that has been brought up and him and Dig jumping over railings.

 

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I'm also glad Ruve is dead.  And bad me, I was thinking maybe the kid should have been killed too because wow those are bad sociopathic genes and a bad upbringing.

Don't worry, DD doesn't seem to care that she would die in burning down the world now. It can still happen. Father of the year. I guess his stance on harming daughters has changed since offing Laurel. One thing I hated was Oliver promising Ruve to save the kid. I'm not opposing him saving her (though 15 years down the line, it will likely bite him on the ass), but stop being unnecessarily respectful of evil people, Oliver! The last time you saved her, she sicced her psycho husband on you even harder.

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Can they kill Malcolm next episode? Pretty please? His confidence over not dying would make it the perfect moment to have Oliver slash his throat open. Or Thea. Whichever one. But this time, decapitate his head, take out his heart and burn every inch of him and then scatter his ashes across the world.

He clearly has to drug Thea one more time since they're operating on a three strikes and you're out basis, as best as I can tell.

5 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

ETA: Did Oliver pick a lock with one of his arrows? Is that an actual thing that happened or am I crazy?

He totally did.

[Password]

I wish I knew what happened in the scene between Felicity and Curtis in episode 18. He seemed very in the loop about their relationship and I would've liked to hear what Felicity said.