S04.E10: Norman

[ganesh]

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I know a couple people have said that but I think it was very fitting for Norma to cling to her denial and fantasies until the very end.  

Yes, literally my next sentence says just that. I was discussing how the concept of classical tragedy fit into the context of the show given what happened. So you're arguing a point that wasn't raised. 

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On the other hand, I guess it still is classically tragic because right up until the end, Norma never got just enough self awareness about Norman and went to her death unknowingly. 

 

29 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I know that she pretty much brought this on herself with not accepting the truth, but my heart breaks that she finally found some real happiness with a man who truly did love her and only had a few weeks with him. She never should have let Norman come home, but I completely get why she did, co-dependence is strong with those two, but it was pretty much what killed her.

The telling part of that was that she found the happiness without Norman, and she tried to lie to him about it. So letting him come home basically sealed it for her.  

[peacheslatour]

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The jaws of complete insanity opened wide and swallowed Norman Bates whole....just for that one moment after Chick talked to him and he went for the gun was probably his last moment of any sort of clarity when he knew what a terrible thing he had done and what it had meant...and then his last bit of sanity flickered out forever.

Beautifully expressed!

[FoundTime]

19 hours ago, whydoiwatchtv said:

In the movie Psycho, Norma had an old ladies' voice and gray hair in her corpse reveal scene. I was supposed to be 10 years with the two of them in the house. But the mother in the movie sounded 70-80. I guess they'll have to take some liberties, like Norma being younger but I love all the shoutouts to the original movie.

Mother is also quite the shrew in the movie, and not happy for Norman to be paying attention to loose young women like Marion Crane...which makes me wonder if the relationship between her and Norman will deteriorate over the next season and become less lovey-dovey than we left it.

[Bebecat]

I do not have much to add about the finale, everything has been covered pretty much. The arrest seemed kind of stupid, though I guess it had a purpose. What is Chick up to though?

OT, but looking at IMDB, Max Theriot  does not have any upcoming credits, his latest being Bates, while the other main characters all have other projects due out this year or next...wondering why this is? I can't see him playing a huge role next season. I think he and his wife may have a new baby but it seems like he would be very hot right now.

[Rustybones]

Does anyone know the details surrounding Freddie being chosen for the role of Norman?  I'd never heard of him before.  I remember the first season they actually did a live broadcast.  It included Vera and I believe Max Theriot in the studio and Freddie from his home.  I'd never seen that done for any show, ever.

Forgot to mention that on a trip to LA in the 80's, we had a tour of Universal Studios that included the Bates house, which was just a two-walled exterior facade.  Still scary looking, though.

[queenanne]

9 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

With Norman's psychosis, he isn't aware he is the one doing the crimes, he thinks it's "mother."  Now the murder-suicide scene might have been a little different but then there was the memory lapse from the carbon monoxide poisoning, which was mentioned by the doctor in the hospital and I think that is why Norman was so mixed up about what really happened and whether Norma was really alive and playing some game. Because Norman survived it, he was confused whether Norma did too. That's why when after Chick's visit and he realizes she's really dead, he attempt to kill himself with the gun, finishing the job he previously started because he believes they can't live without each other. But then his warped mind imagines Norma and the dog alive again and thus we set the stage for Norman living out his life at the Bates Motel, sanity largely obliterated. 

Are you thinking we're supposed to derive that "playing a game" thought out of his flashback to his younger self with Norma in hide and seek?  Because I guess I can see that if we believe in the principle of "general confusion", but it's still kind of specious of the writers, I think, because he thought up the murder/suicide in the first place. Are they de facto trying to say we should consider him innocent?  We can't blame him ahead of time because he was on Dr. Edwards' meds, and we can't blame him after the fact because he was gassed?  I don't really think TPTB think he's not responsible for his actions, but I do think they could be trying to argue that he's not responsible before nor aft of the actual murder/suicide pact, but that's a little hard to swallow.

Edited May 19, 2016 by queenanne

[BatmanBeatles]

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Does anyone know the details surrounding Freddie being chosen for the role of Norman?  I'd never heard of him before.

He was in Charlie And The Chocolate Factory and Finding Neverland.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, Bebecat said:

The arrest seemed kind of stupid, though I guess it had a purpose. 

Well, they said that they had Romero lying to a federal officer, which he did. Feds will grab every charge that could stick, so I don't see this as anything OOC. 

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 11:44 PM, FoundTime said:

(I'm noticing other shows are doing this too, with the "big event" in the penultimate episode of the season, though I can't think of any examples right now.)

Game of Thrones has done that since their very first season.

 

I loved this episode a lot.  On the one hand I would have liked to see Norma realizing how truly sick Norman is, but OTOH, it was nice that she didn't

[Rustybones]

Yeah, at least Norma died peacefully and with a smile as Norman sang Pearly Shells.  She was done with Romero so she probably had pleasant thoughts of getting out of town and moving to Hawaii with Norman. 

[truthaboutluv]

It's interesting you mention about Norma being done with Romero because I wonder if Romero believes Norman wrote the letter and not Norma. I can definitely see him believing that. That Norman wrote the letter so it would look like Norma planned to kill herself and Norman as well. And the funny thing is, while he's right about Norman being behind the attempted murder/suicide, Norma really did write the letter and really was planning on leaving him. Which is exactly why I mentioned in the last episode thread that tragic as this all was, Norma's actions in that episode solidified to me that this was always going to be how her and Norman's story ended. Maybe not exactly with her dying of carbon monoxide poisoning but it was always going to be tragic. Because the fact that Norma was willing to walk away from the first guy she'd been in love with who loved her despite all her crazy and all the ugliness in her past rather than admit and accept the truth about Norman, proves that she was never going to accept it. 

[Peanut6711]

On 5/19/2016 at 7:46 PM, queenanne said:

Are you thinking we're supposed to derive that "playing a game" thought out of his flashback to his younger self with Norma in hide and seek?  Because I guess I can see that if we believe in the principle of "general confusion", but it's still kind of specious of the writers, I think, because he thought up the murder/suicide in the first place. Are they de facto trying to say we should consider him innocent?  We can't blame him ahead of time because he was on Dr. Edwards' meds, and we can't blame him after the fact because he was gassed?  I don't really think TPTB think he's not responsible for his actions, but I do think they could be trying to argue that he's not responsible before nor aft of the actual murder/suicide pact, but that's a little hard to swallow.

I'm not sure why Norman thought Norma was really alive and had some plan other than his mind is just that far deteriorated and the carbon monoxide poisoning resulted in some short term memory loss.  I don't think TPTB are trying to say that Norman is innocent any more than any individual with a mental illness who commits a crime is innocent. I suppose though that if Romero could find the evidence to arrest him that Norman certainly fits the ground for mental insanity in a plea. Interestingly enough though the courts would put him in that dark, grim institution we saw earlier in the season rather than the upscale Pineview that Norman was so anxious to leave and that Romera was footing the bill for. 

[Ailianna]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 8:04 PM, jewel21 said:

1. Being dead, wouldn't Norma be stiff as a board, not flopping around everywhere like she is merely unconscious?

It takes a while for a body to go into rigor mortis (the "stiff as a board" phase), depending on the environmental factors, but usually a few hours.  Then the rigor relaxes, and the body is able to be easily repositioned.  Funeral homes have to have the post-rigor phase in order to be able to dress and pose the body; during rigor it's very difficult to reposition the body, so moving the arms, legs and torso for dressing in particular means that the body has to be flexible.

[Ohwell]

I've been to funerals and have never seen the eyes sewn shut.  Does that really happen?

[WearyTraveler]

54 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I've been to funerals and have never seen the eyes sewn shut.  Does that really happen?

It was how they did it before superglue and other similar products came along.  They would use transparent nylon and sew with inside stitches, then hide whatever was visible with makeup.  But I don't think they do that anymore.

[Ohwell]

Oh, ok.  I was thinking of sewing where you could actually see the stitches.  (Although I've never leaned in close enough to bodies in caskets to notice much of anything.)

[Baby Button Eyes]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Rustybones said:

 

Forgot to mention that on a trip to LA in the 80's, we had a tour of Universal Studios that included the Bates house, which was just a two-walled exterior facade.  Still scary looking, though.

If you think that's scary, I live close to the TV set and when it's filming season and it's all spruced up, it can be very creepy driving up the road and suddenly this spooky, ominous house on a hill suddenly appears on your right and suddenly you are at the actual Bates Motel.  And the sign always says "Vacancy".  It feels like the movie becomes reality. The set buildings are completely built, no facades but I have no idea if there are any decorated rooms inside either the house or the hotel cabins.

[BatmanBeatles]

Was Mother sitting by the window?

[Chaos Theory]

I think Norma not seeing Norman's true insanity was incredibly well earned and true to the show.  It would have rang incredibly false if she had seen it.  The whole plot (for both Norma and Nirman) has been willful blindness and to have Norma see Norman as a monster would have cancelled the plot out completely.  I actually think the way it was written was brilliant because it allows Norman to remain willfully blind to his own insanity and to the truth that not only the fact that his mother is no longer with him but he is the reason she isn't.

[missy jo]

Knowing there was a fifth season, I was devastated that Norma actually died and it wasn't a fake out. Vera's portrayal made Norma one of the best characters on TV. And that character won't be coming back even if Farmiga does. 

This has been one of my favorite shows, but I'd have preferred this to be the series finale. I don't see the need for more episodes - no real loose ends to tie up. I don't think I'll watch next season. 

Such a tragic story - a Seroquel prescription could have prevented the whole thing! 

[LocalGovt]

I was completely crushed when Norma was, in fact, dead.

[SunnyBeBe]

But, won't Norma appear in dream sequences, Norman's fantasies, etc.  In Norman's mind, she will still be going about the place, talking to him, giving him advice, providing comfort.  It would just be others who don't see her, right?

[ganesh]

I think the argument is that it's not the same as real life Norma. She had her own things going on, and now she's always going to be colored by Norman's pov. 

[Aquarius]

Norman's Mother is not Norma.  She's a figment of his imagination, albeit based on a real person.  She's not a fully realized individual with conflicts and foibles and a unique point of view.  Norma is dead.  Mother is not the same.

I continue to be sad about that.

[BK1978]

I was not very fond of this season as a whole.  In fact I have watched the entire season OnDemand and I did not even realize this was the last episode of the season.  I went looking for the next episode only to find out that the season was over.  I am not sure why this season did not click with me but it just seemed weak when compared with the other seasons.

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, I think this was the best season of the show since S1. They kept on-point and it all felt like it was heading somewhere definite. I loved it!

When Romero grabbed Norman in the hospital and tossed him up against the wall like a rag doll...wow! Very effective scene there. And, the creepy eyes scene...very effective to show how far gone Norman was. 

On 5/18/2016 at 11:30 AM, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but I've seen the comment before of Anthony Perkins' Norman having this charm that one could buy women trusting him while Freddie doesn't and I have never seen that myself. I found Perkins' portrayal of Norman just as creepy as Freddie and always felt from the start that Freddie clearly watched the movie and while not imitating (because Freddie's too good of an actor to just imitate another actor's performance IMO) Perkins, did draw some inspiration from the actor and his performance. 

IMO Perkins' Norman was not charming in the least - what he was, was seemingly harmless. But I always felt when watching the movie that right from the start the character had a slight creepiness and weirdness to him. That conversation with Marion after he brings her the sandwich is tense and awkward as hell because you just keep sensing that something is not totally right or at least I did.

And to me, Freddie has that exact same quality as Norman. It's not that Norman is oh so charming that he got women to trust him, it's that he comes across as harmless and even a little vulnerable and frail. Norman would be total catnip for any woman wanting to "save" some guy. And that's what makes him so scary and dangerous because you don't see the danger until it's far too late. 

I watched both the original movie and the remake yesterday after I finished out the season. It might be interesting to note that I'd never seen the original movie before now. Of course, being a person on the planet earth, I knew what the movie was about though. Totally didn't get the point of the remake and found Vince Vaughn completely ineffective in the role of Norman. 

Anyway, I agree with your assessment. There's clearly something off about Norman, but it doesn't set off any alarm bells for most people because his weirdness seems completely harmless. When I was watching the original movie and Norman invited Marion into his parlor, I totally understood why she would follow him. And as the conversation started to turn slightly disturbing, I totally understood why she didn't run away screaming. The remake, not so much. 

On 5/18/2016 at 7:04 PM, jewel21 said:

Lastly, I never watched Psycho, but my mom has and she was surprised Norma was killed so young. She said she thought in the movies that Norma was killed when she was quite older. Is this true? Because my mom seemed to remember Norma as being an old woman when she died.

Since it was fresh on my mind, the original movie did seem to portray her as a older woman, but it's hard to say because we never actually see Norma alive, just her corpse and Norman dressed up as her with a wig that appears to be gray hair (but the movie is black and white, so that's kinda hard to tell). I was already in the mindset Norma being 35-40ish, so I didn't think she was a gray-haired old lady, myself. But, I can see how that might be the case for people who saw the movie without the vision of Vera Farmiga in mind.

On 5/19/2016 at 6:37 PM, Rustybones said:

Does anyone know the details surrounding Freddie being chosen for the role of Norman?  I'd never heard of him before. 

I don't know the details surrounding Freddie's casting, but I remember seeing him in Toast previous to Bates Motel. 

[Mick Lady]

Hi Dot! I know, I'm late to the party, I used to post on Bates, but got distracted with other stuff.

Dot, you said you saw the movie recently. Isn't it stated in the movie that Norman's Mom and her sheriff lover "disappeared" at the same time?

I also read somewhere, I can't remember exactly, that the murderer that Norman is based on first victim was his brother. Can anyone help me out with this?

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Dot, you said you saw the movie recently. Isn't it stated in the movie that Norman's Mom and her sheriff lover "disappeared" at the same time?

Disappeared?

Spoiler

No, they were dead and buried. At the time they died, it was believed Norman's mother had killed her lover and then herself 10 years before the movie starts. If I remember right, she was supposed to have killed him because he was unfaithful or something like that. After Norman is caught, it is explained that Norman actually killed them both in a jealous rage. I don't remember the lover being the sheriff in the movie though, but I could be remembering that wrong. 

Spoiler tagged it just in case.

16 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I also read somewhere, I can't remember exactly, that the murderer that Norman is based on first victim was his brother. Can anyone help me out with this?

The fictionalized Norman Bates is loosely based upon Wisconsin murdered Ed Gein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein. His brother did die under suspicious circumstances as I recall.

[cleo]

I just watched this....I don't feel any sympathy for Norman in the last episode. It reminded me of the real scenarios where a guy can't accept that his wife is leaving and does the murder-suicide. It's not love, it's ownership, and that's the vibe I got increasingly from Norman the last couple episodes, and from the murder through to the body snatching. 

Loved seeing Romero punch him in the church. 

I hope they don't make the cops stupid and blame Romero. Any decent cop would have been all over the institutionalization and checking into it. Also, Norman's demeanour throughout the chat with the cop was odd, I don;t think in real life he wouldn't have raised suspicion. 

I blame Dylan more than anyone else. Dylan saw his violent side first hand, and had suspicions about Emma. Not to mention he knows Norman killed his father. 

Poor Romero. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by cleo

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Disappeared?

  Hide contents

No, they were dead and buried. At the time they died, it was believed Norman's mother had killed her lover and then herself 10 years before the movie starts. If I remember right, she was supposed to have killed him because he was unfaithful or something like that. After Norman is caught, it is explained that Norman actually killed them both in a jealous rage. I don't remember the lover being the sheriff in the movie though, but I could be remembering that wrong. 

Spoiler tagged it just in case.

The fictionalized Norman Bates is loosely based upon Wisconsin murdered Ed Gein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein. His brother did die under suspicious circumstances as I recall.

Thanks Dot!

I'm looking forward to this season!

[Stringey]

On 2/4/2017 at 5:45 PM, Mick Lady said:

Thanks Dot!

I'm looking forward to this season!

I just decided to glance through the season 4 and noticed this last post about the serial killer ed gein.   Anyway my step mom was from the town ed gein was from and apparently she said a aunt was almost a victim of gein. See he apparently had a list of would be victims and apparently my stepmoms aunt's name was on the list. Creepy. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 5/17/2016 at 11:08 PM, jewel21 said:

That would be Molly Price. She played police woman Faith Yokas on Third Watch and was my second favourite character on the show. It's nice to see her on TV again.

She was also the wife of Robert Aldrich in Feud: Bette vs. Joan. It was such a small role with few lines, but she conveyed sooooo much nonverbally.

[Thog]

I'm way late to the party, but I just finished Season 4 and I can't believe this show was not on my radar sooner. The slow build to Norman's insanity over 4 years was brilliant, and Freddie is perfect at channeling Anthony Perkins without just mimicking him. The intensity of this season was amazing, and actually made me kind of glad I missed it in real time because I could not have waited a week between episodes.

As for this last episode, all I can add to what's been said is that the scene that had me laughing the hardest was Chick's entrance. It wasn't just the chicken enchilada casserole (though that was great) - it was his very sincere description of Norma as a lovely woman. Didn't she try to shoot him and then treat him to one of her signature tantrums the last time he saw her?? I'd hate to see the non-lovely women in his life. It took me forever to warm up to Chick, but this scene did it. He has a way of seeing into someone's darkest truth and has no problem calling it out.