S05.E04: 6,741

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

I wince now when I watch Shahi slam Acker onto that table, because I know it broke Acker's tailbone!

Wow, seriously? Ow. No wonder Root was pretty much standing for the rest of the episode (or not, it was probably scripted). 

I do remember (at Comicon, I think?) Sarah mentioning her and Amy shooting a scene where they got all beaten and bruised but that it was NOT a fight scene. 

[Cranberry]

Yep! Acker mentioned breaking her tailbone during an IGN interview at NYCC, and there were a couple of tweets last night (hers and Sarah Shahi's) that confirmed this was the scene that did it! Shahi slammed her onto that table hard.

[mtlchick]

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Yep! Acker mentioned breaking her tailbone during an IGN interview at NYCC, and there were a couple of tweets last night (hers and Sarah Shahi's) that confirmed this was the scene that did it! Shahi slammed her onto that table hard.

I can only imagine what SS's husband thought when he heard that.  :p

[Twilight Man]

Greer:  Well, the two of them are having sex again.  This is going to take awhile. I'm going out to get a cappuccino.

Wendell: Um, I'll watch, sir, and um ..... call you when it's over.

Greer: Yes, I bet you will.

[Bobbin]

I may be wrong, often am, but I believe Shaw's sim experiences are being erased each time. Otherwise, she'd soon realize they were all simulations. It's the simulations that get tweaked each time, not Shaw. Still, there must be some residual effect, especially after blowing her brains out 6,741 times.

[StarBrand]

I'm just curious now as to how (and when) she escapes for real, because we know that's going to happen, and when she rejoins the team. Sarah said on her twitter she doesn't appear in tonight's episode, but does for sure the following week-and I believe that one's called "A More Perfect Union". Makes sense.

Quote

Yep! Acker mentioned breaking her tailbone during an IGN interview at NYCC, and there were a couple of tweets last night (hers and Sarah Shahi's) that confirmed this was the scene that did it! Shahi slammed her onto that table hard.

I can just imagine how the directer instructed them to do that scene;

"OK, Sarah, you're going to passionalty slam Amy into that table, OK?"

*slam*. Amy says "ouch!"

SS says "oops, sorry. You did tell me to slam her down, right?"

[shura]

6 hours ago, Bobbin said:

I may be wrong, often am, but I believe Shaw's sim experiences are being erased each time. Otherwise, she'd soon realize they were all simulations. It's the simulations that get tweaked each time, not Shaw. Still, there must be some residual effect, especially after blowing her brains out 6,741 times.

That's how I read it too. Samaritan is looking for real-world things that will need to get tweaked and set up once Shaw is allowed to escape for real. It needs the real, authentic Shaw to react then to this set up world just the way she was reacting to the simulation(s) that produced the winning outcome for Samaritan. Well, maybe there is a bit of both - Shaw is being programmed a little to react to the "favorable" world better.

[Aliasscape]

I kept thinking that this will be important for the future. Like if Shaw shows up and immediately starts trying to kill them all you know it took them nearly 7,000 tries to get her to that point, but I won't find it completely unbelievable the way I might've had I not seen this episode.

[MinnieM]

I watched the episode with the closed captions on. At one point, per the closed captioning, Finch spoke to Bear in German (instead of Danish). So that sent up a red flag for me that something was fishy...

[Hanahope]

Yeah, there were a lot of red flags that this wasn't real.  The fact that the entire episode was from Shaw's pov and she either saw or heard everything.  That Root had her own place.  That once the chip was taken out, she kept having the flashes.  That Greer would show up to anything himself. And its interesting that in 6,741 attempts, Fusco never showed up.  So Shaw still has great mental control.

I was curious at Greer saying they had all the time in the world.  Do they really?

Edited May 18, 2016 by Hanahope

[Dagny]

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I watched the episode with the closed captions on. At one point, per the closed captioning, Finch spoke to Bear in German (instead of Danish). So that sent up a red flag for me that something was fishy...

That and Shaw spoke Farsi, not Arabic. :o

One thing that always bugs me from the "POV" is if it really was per pov shown on the monitor, then the feed would be more like a first person shooter image than what was shown on the monitor. <must stop over analyzing>

[Bort]

53 minutes ago, Dagny said:

One thing that always bugs me from the "POV" is if it really was per pov shown on the monitor, then the feed would be more like a first person shooter image than what was shown on the monitor. <must stop over analyzing>

Not necessarily. It could be Samaritan POV. 

[StarBrand]

So, CBS edits out the "fustercluck" line from premiere, and yet leaves in the Shaw line about there being "plenty of sucking". The showrunners must be giggling they got away with that one...

[fastiller]

My clue that it wasn't real? Root grabbed Shaw's head right near where the chip had been removed from and Shaw didn't grimace from the pain.  Even a badass mofo like Shaw would to some sort of stoic flinching at that!

Anyway, I know that this show isn't normally one of those that's spoken of when people speak about the Emmys, but Shahi has to submit this for her "For Your Consideration" Emmy nomination.  She was awesome in this.  She's very good, bordering on awesome, most of the time, but in this ep, she was super-duper awesome.

[Driad]

I suspected a simulation when Shaw jumped up from her coma, but TV does that sort of stuff.  I suspected more strongly when Shaw objected to having surgery in a moving subway train.  Presumably that represented the train in their underground hideout, which does not move.

[CoderLady]

I didn't catch on until Shaw shot Reese. No way could that be happening at this point in the real world. And I saw the closed-captioning identify the language Finch was speaking to Bear as German but I thought it was just the captioner taking a wild-ass guess and failing. Hmm -- would Samaritan and its minions know Bear speaks Dutch?

Edited May 19, 2016 by CoderLady

[shura]

11 hours ago, Dagny said:

That and Shaw spoke Farsi, not Arabic. :o

Would real Shaw be expected to speak Arabic? I assumed she was of Persian ancestry. Not sure why, possibly because Shahi sounds more like a Persian name to me.

[stealinghome]

"Compact Persian sociopath" jumps to mind. ;)

[Sulador]

17 hours ago, MinnieM said:

I watched the episode with the closed captions on. At one point, per the closed captioning, Finch spoke to Bear in German (instead of Danish). So that sent up a red flag for me that something was fishy...

I noticed that too. But I thought Bear was always spoken to in either Dutch or Belgian (not Danish), he being a Belgian Malinois? I always watch with the CC on, because Jim Caviezel is the king mutterer of all time and I can't make out a word he says without help.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sulador

[ybrik]

Have rewatched the episode a couple of times to really get a good idea of the episode. I really liked it more each time I saw it.

Yeah there were obvious signs that this was a simulation. Most of which others have already said.

I do wonder if this episode will play into how the rest of the season goes. I think there may come a point where Shaw will accidently or maybe under Samaritan control hurt/injure Root.

[bros402]

3 hours ago, CoderLady said:

I didn't catch on until Shaw shot Reese. No way could that be happening at this point in the real world. And I saw the closed-captioning identify the language Finch was speaking to Bear as German but I thought it was just the captioner taking a wild-ass guess and failing. Hmm -- would Samaritan and its minions know Bear speaks Dutch?

I think one of the operatives might've known that Bear responded to a command in a Germanic language - but didn't know the exact language.

1 hour ago, Sulador said:

I noticed that too. But I thought Bear was always spoken to in either Dutch or Belgian (not Danish), he being a Belgian Malinois? I always watch with the CC on, because Jim Caviezel is the king mutterer of all time and I can't make out a word he says without help.

Bear takes commands in Dutch.

[Cigale]

"This didn't suck."

"There was a lot of sucking"

"You were my safe place."  

Man, am I glad that this was a simulation, cause that was some seriously awful dialog...

[Cranberry]

I just rewatched this and I did indeed enjoy it more when I wasn't waiting for the other shoe to drop. I thought it was interesting that Samaritan's and Shaw's versions of her friends (especially Root) were pulling her both ways in her mind -- Root asked her early on if she wanted to pay The Machine a visit, but for most of the episode she was trying to keep Shaw from going anywhere ("Stay here with me," "Come back to bed," "Don't move a muscle", etc.). Near the end of the episode, Root started pressuring her more about going to The Machine ("We've gotta get back to The Machine," "I'll watch our tail; you lead the way"), but it was only when Shaw led Root to the playground -- her former safe place, with her former safe space person -- and Root was still trying to drag her away ("We need to get back to Harold and The Machine," "We'll work through this, but first I need to get you to safety") that Shaw gave up fighting the simulation and put a bullet in her own brain. It was very well done.

I also think it was important for the writers to include this episode now even though it didn't advance the plot. It allowed us to see inside Shaw's head, to clarify feelings about the team (and Root especially) that she wouldn't normally verbalize because Shaw is so closed off. It allowed us to understand just how psychologically horrible her time away has been, which I don't think would come across if we got only a few flashbacks. And now if she escapes in the same way, we all won't be scoffing because it was too easy or because she shouldn't have had that much mobility after being in bed for nine months or because the boat was way too convenient -- we'll know that her treatments were a success for Samaritan and that they're allowing her to escape to set the plan in motion. It won't seem unbelievable to us if she shows up and starts trying to murder her friends.

[Camera One]

It is the final season, and that's when you can get away with a "it's all a dream" episode.  I appreciate the episode more after reading the posts here, and I liked the idea that it was a simulation.  I normally can't stand plotlines where one of the former heroes is now secretly evil, so I was pretty much ready for this "scenario" to end where it ultimately did.  During the sex scene, I was thinking it might be a dream, but nothing happened, so the next time I thought that was when Reese got shot.  I must admit I felt angry for a moment when Shaw shot herself... "don't tell me they brought her back just for this," I thought.  

I was happy that Greer was finally dead, but no luck on that count.

[Netfoot]

Of course, apart from the one kiss prior to Shaw's capture, all we've witnessed are scenes of passion simulated by Samaritan and imposed on Shaw by the VR setup.  So...

[Cranberry]

I don't buy that they were imposed on her. Samaritan could manipulate the other players in the sim, but Shaw's reactions were up to her. She initiated the sex, and it was her "version" of Root trying to make her stay in the apartment and away from The Machine. Samaritan only really broke through with "their" Root toward the end of the episode.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, Cranberry said:

I don't buy that they were imposed on her.

One way or another, all that passion displayed in this episode was simulated, not real.  So the real reunion is still for us to look forward to!

[TV Anonymous]

Out of topic: is this the first lesbian sex scene on network TV, on primetime?

[bros402]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Out of topic: is this the first lesbian sex scene on network TV, on primetime?

That honor went to Buffy the Vampire Slayer in its.... mixed-quality final season

[HawaiiTVGuy]

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Yeah, there were a lot of red flags that this wasn't real.  The fact that the entire episode was from Shaw's pov and she either saw or heard everything.  That Root had her own place.  That once the chip was taken out, she kept having the flashes.  That Greer would show up to anything himself. And its interesting that in 6,741 attempts, Fusco never showed up.  So Shaw still has great mental control.

I was curious at Greer saying they had all the time in the world.  Do they really?

I think that the players in the simulation are all Samaritan, Fusco is not identified as being part of Team Machine yet, so there was no reason to loop him into the simulation.  Notice that the primary interactions that mattered (trying to find out the Machine's location) all centered around Shaw's interaction with Team Machine that Samaritan knew.  I felt that was a good bit of continuity by the writers not to accidentally write in a role for Fusco in this episode, and then it would be obvious to Samaritan who to go after.

Greer has all the reason to believe they have all the time in the world.  They are pretty much operating without any oversight and impunity.  We have no idea what deal was struck up by Samaritan through its child avatar at the White House, and they already have carte blanche on all security and access feeds in the United States.  In their minds, the only threat is Machine, who is severely compromised, so I am sure Greer is feeling quite cocky.

Yeah, I figured something was wrong pretty early on, and I think it became clearer as they never went to the subway and they called the apartment "Root's" apartment.

Again, I think this goes back to Samaritan's big weakness is under-estimating human loyalties and emotions.  Shaw is able to continually give herself up in order to save Root, something that Samaritan's logic based electronic reasoning cannot compute.  Machine however was "taught" to "feel" real emotions by Finch, so I think that is the upper hand.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by HawaiiTVGuy

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 5/17/2016 at 10:07 AM, aquarian1 said:

I understand that.  I didn't like it though.  There are other ways they could have done it.  Like I said, it was a fun watch, but that's about it.

The bolded part? It will come as NO surprise to folks here...that's how I felt about the episode in its entirety. What did I learn from it (even though as soon as Shaw "escaped" the first time, I knew it wasn't real) was that that sack of shit old pruney, moustache a twirling villain, ARSEHOLE, Greer just won't fucking DIE. I want him gone!gone!gone! He bores me. His non-stop talking...bores me. And yes, Reese and Finch, were both...off, which convinced me this wasn't really happening. And the icing on the cake was when Shaw shot and killed Reese. Riiiight.  The next episode TOTALLY made up for it though.

[fastiller]

I don't know if this'll work - I've never embedded a Tweet before (be gentle with me).

It didn't work.  There's a Twitter account I follow, called Existential Comics (comics, all about philosophy/philosophers), which yesterday Tweeted the following:

Quote

Odds of us living in a simulation: 99% Odds of us not knowing the odds of us living in a simulation: 100%

I thought it was appropriate to Shaw and this episode.

Edited June 13, 2016 by fastiller