S04.E08: The Magic of David Copperfield V: The Statue of Liberty Disappears

[Bcharmer]

2 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

I don't think it's Lisa's blood. It's looking like a wound with blood running down, either Lisa scratched her or pulled her earring or something like that. 

 

I don't think it was Lisa's blood, either. When Phillip was helping to clean it, Elizabeth winced. So, she was cut somehow.

[crashdown]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

In this episode, you see her reaching out to Phillip for support and trying her best to connect with him. He's not letting her, because he's too lost in his own heavy shit at the moment. The scenes where she tried to get him to talk to her about Martha and how he was feeling were painful-he knows now how his behavior around this Martha situation has made her feel, and he knows what she needs from him, but he refuses to give it to her. That's his way of lashing out to deal with his pain, and she lashes out in turn-by tearing into him about EST. I think she went to that seminar with good intentions, but it struck a nerve when she was already feeling so raw and angry with Phillip, and her better angels deserted her.

Yes, I think that's precisely right. Elizabeth didn't go to EST because she wanted to mock Philip; she went because she really wants to understand him better, especially right now, when he appears to be doing and saying things that genuinely shock her. But here's the thing: it's incredibly important to Elizabeth's whole identity that she see herself as stronger and better than Philip.  She needs to be the better agent, the one of the two of them who can make the hard choices when they need to be made.  She counts on Philip to be the weaker one, and I think in some ways the softness that she perceives in Philip is what keeps her going.  (She also can use it in interesting ways, when she herself wants permission to go off the mission.  Last season, for instance, I definitely felt that she wanted Philip to tell her to let the old woman go when they went to find the mail robot, but instead he just shrugged and said, "She picked a bad night."  Then Elizabeth was forced yet again to become an evil person doing evil things because Philip didn't stop her.) But right now, Elizabeth is feeling the full force of glimmers of vulnerability, and it's fueling her mean streak.  She never really wanted a family; she just accepted it as a necessary cover for her true work.  And now that family is actually *becoming* her true work, and it's messing with her head.

Quote

It makes me think of S6 Mad Men where the characters wound up regressing and finding themselves in situations they thought they'd gotten past--only it's different now. They were having the same fight, but they were different people and it was forgotten when Elizabeth walked in shell-shocked after killing Karen. They even ended with that "Let's take the kids to EPCOT" which was an echo of Elizabeth's "Let's take the kids away this weekend" in The Colonel.

Philip was able to take care of Elizabeth physically in that scene, in a way that he hadn't been able to take care of her emotionally before because of his own wallowing.  I liked it a lot--it felt very real to me.  As for EPCOT, I think that was a hugely surprising line, given everything, and it showed me how much Elizabeth's rant against the Americanism of EST was really her attempt to convince herself of something that she didn't entirely feel.  What's more excessively American than EPCOT?  Elizabeth might as well have said, "Let's just be completely American for awhile, for fun and relaxation."  She's changing, much as she tries to pretend to herself that she isn't.

[madam magpie]

I think that re: Elizabeth it's also really important to remember that she's basically a slave to her government. On some level, she may think she had a choice at first, but we all know (and I think, she knows) that isn't true. And she may believe in the larger cause (I think she does). But she's also been brutalized, beaten, raped, prostituted, tortured, threatened, married off very young to a man she didn't know, sent away from her home, forced (coerced?) to bear children, and told that those kids don't actually belong to her but to her country. The fact that she trusts Philip at all, has any emotional depth, and loves her husband and children is remarkable. She makes decisions, but she doesn't have a lot of choice or personal agency. She can't just walk away from her job. There's no safety. Yet she still shows empathy. I'm reminded of when she told Philip that what she wished for was to not be worried all the time. She's a powder keg and brutal and cold for sure, but she was made, not born.

Edited May 5, 2016 by madam magpie

[Umbelina]

In the lastest interview with the show runners/writers that I posted on page one there is a very big possible clue.  At least they do talk about how they envisioned this story ending when they started out.

Now it's got me wondering, but I'll take it to the spoiler thread, even though it was in regular media.

The more I think about this one, the more I do like it.  As they've always said, this is a show about a marriage above all, and I feel like this one really delved into that well.  We had love, jealousy, insecurity, laying down the law with a problem child, betrayal (because yes, I do think Elizabeth running right to Gabe to rat out Philip's EST was a betrayal) and some happy parenting moments as well, playing hockey with the son in the driveway, the Epcot trip. 

Although, Henry certainly seemed to be well aware that the moment Paige got home from yet another outing with the Pastor and his wife, BOTH of his parents traipsed right after her into the house.  He's aware something is really off with his sister, and with his parents.  How could he not be?  Philip and Elizabeth better start paying attention to their other child or they will have another problem soon.

Kudos to all the actors though, they really brought it to every single small moment, and definitely to the big moments as well, no over-acting, simply exquisite acting.

I still don't trust Gabe at all, but the show apparently does now, he was downright cuddly and concerned in this one, which frankly, creeped me out even more.

[Bcharmer]

9 minutes ago, crashdown said:

As for EPCOT, I think that was a hugely surprising line, given everything, and it showed me how much Elizabeth's rant against the Americanism of EST was really her attempt to convince herself of something that she didn't entirely feel.  

Except it was also very predictable. I knew what she was going to say, word for word, before she said it. I literally spoke her line before she did. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Hit The (Berlin) Wall

In which Elizabeth tries to treat her stress with cinema and self-help but ultimately falls back on a proven (bloody) classic.

[crgirl412]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

Not sure if you really mean dead or not, but...

She's scheduled to leave Cuba for Prague the next day.  I don't think they'll kill her, why would they?  We saw the spies at the Residentura make all of those arrangements, the small plane to Cuba, the flight to Prague, and then on to Moscow.

They'll debrief her, probably for a long time, but Martha was so very composed at the airport, I think she'll handle it much better than I originally thought.  She didn't (as one recapper said) scream "Fuck YOU Clark!" or cry, or blame him for ruining her life, she put her hair in a ponytail, and composed herself, and was kind to Clark at the end, and calmly walked on to that plane.  Frankly, that speaks well for her odds of survival.  She may not like betraying her old workmates, but she'll know she must.  She can avoid some things though, personal details of the agents lives that might leave them vulnerable perhaps, since her overall attitude will probably be cooperative, no need for invasive or punitive interrogation.  As I said before, she's been in the FBI for a long time, she's not some naive innocent.  She looked ready. 

 

Oh me too!  That's the biggest reason the time jump shocked me.  I was in "What the hell is that old bastard going to do now?" then ZOOM!  7 months later!

I wanted her to lose it and scream at him using "Mischa!!!"  I wanted to hear her tell him that she now realizes he used her from the beginning, it was all a lie and he can got to Hell but no, she lovingly kisses him good-bye like they are really married and in love. 

Martha is very complicated.    

[crashdown]

44 minutes ago, Bcharmer said:

55 minutes ago, crashdown said:

As for EPCOT, I think that was a hugely surprising line, given everything, and it showed me how much Elizabeth's rant against the Americanism of EST was really her attempt to convince herself of something that she didn't entirely feel.  

Except it was also very predictable. I knew what she was going to say, word for word, before she said it. I literally spoke her line before she did. 

Yeah, I actually did too, so perhaps "surprising" isn't the best word.  But to me, the fact that we knew that Elizabeth was about to say something that on the surface should be contrary to everything that she's about is just testament to the extraordinary writing of the season and the series.  They've made the seemingly impossible inevitable, which is quite a trick.

Edited May 5, 2016 by crashdown

[Cosmocrush]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I was totally waiting for either Martha to be shot on the plane or for the plane to blow up!

Flashback to a scene from Homeland.  I was wondering the same thing. 

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I was speaking with a friend of mine that and reminded me, just who is replacing Elizabeth and Philip in the field?  Hans is still a relative novice.  It's about time the Centre realized they didn't have to give EVERY SINGLE MISSION to the Jennings but who else do they have in the field?

We know there are other illegals in place, both from actual history, and as shown in the show - such as their friends, the couple who were killed by their son.  I'm sure there are other resources that can be used for operations, even if those other illegals have ongoing ops of their own.

[gwhh]

After the cold war ends, or they go back to the USSR, or after the Jennings defects to the Team USA (which every comes first).  They could write a book entitled "How to turn yoru kid into a super secret KGB agent in 7 months or less?"

Edited May 5, 2016 by gwhh

[jjj]

I was amazed that Philip had to learn from Stan that the FBI was "onto" Martha.  I assumed they had Hans or someone monitoring Martha's apartment while dogwalking, and it would have been very evident that the FBI was carting out the contents of her apartment.  The same with "Clark's" apartment.  They had to get her out of the country no matter what, but how could Philip not know the FBI had shut down both his and Martha's homes?

Also, is Martha's Chekhov gun gone?  It had more scenes than Gaad this season, and I have to wonder if it will reappear at some point?  Or maybe it was just there to ratchet up the tension in those episodes?  (Last seen in the possession of Philip.) 

I am glad they showed the FBI still searching for Martha, which is exactly what the FBI would be doing in real life. 

A nitpick -- jars and lids in the 1980s were still glass and metal, so the "Jif" jar Martha was holding came from the future:

Edited May 5, 2016 by jjj

[crgirl412]

The cut on Elizabeth's neck was most likely from flying glass when she hit Lisa.  Elizabeth is very strong and I'm sure if it happened IRL, the shards would fly hard enough to cut her.  I think she cut Lisa on her carotid or femoral artery and let her exsanguinate on the floor.  I'm not sure she even disposed of the body since she doesn't really have to since Maurice is in FL and the kids at their grandmother's.          

I am a nurse on a Neurosurgery/Neuroscience unit and we get lots of patient's with head and other injuries from crashes with flying glass and sometimes find it still lodged in places or fairly deep cuts it left behind even after they've been in the ER for hours/surgery for hours/in the Trauma ICU and/or Neurosurgery ICU for days before they hit my unit. In the winter, it's the scalp especially for people with dark hair who didn't have a traumatic brain injury and have their head shaved for neurosurgery. Summer is right around corner here with a lot more skin exposed/people wearing much looser clothing so it finds more places to go.......                  

[millennium]

8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

i also loved the ending with Gaad who was right.  His career is over.  I wonder if this is the last we will see if him as well.

I hope not.   I was never very fond of Richard Thomas back on The Waltons, but I find his presence on this show oddly reassuring, like the past still has some relevance in TV today.

42 minutes ago, jjj said:

 

A nitpick -- jars and lids in the 1980s were still glass and metal, so the "Jif" jar Martha was holding came from the future:

Maybe that's why she was staring at it!

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

 

Also, is Martha's Chekhov gun gone?  It had more scenes than Gaad this season, and I have to wonder if it will reappear at some point?  Or maybe it was just there to ratchet up the tension in those episodes? 

 

I'm still a newbie to this forum and so I wanted to tell you that I got a good LOL from your line, "It had more scenes than Gaad this season, "

I know that I could give your post a like but I'm not sure how I could have shown you that it was this specific portion of your post that I liked. Seems like nitpicking. Bu that was just so funny. I got a real good Hee Haw. I like your sense of humor. I had a bad day yesterday (unrelated to this show) and your post made me feel a whole lot better. Thank you oh so much!

Edited May 5, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Midnight Cheese]

Amazing episode, amazing thread as always. 

I'll just post my feelings.  I swear I'm not a chowderhead, and love nuance and this show for how well-written it's been from the start.  I have to say, agreeing of course that Elizabeth was formed by excruciating circumstance into who we see, that I can't stomach her.  Well done, writers.  (Not being sarcastic).  Her complete buy-in, if out of necessity, to the absurdity of insisting Martha was an 'agent' just as Gregory was - when he knew about Philizabeth, whereas Martha knew Elizabeth as 'Jennifer' and her own parents were seduced by the whole Westerfeld clan at her wedding, and her rants against Paige have finally put me where I simply can't abide her any longer.  Yes, she's been used and brutalized by her country, but her own brutality towards weaker people is repulsive and utterly unconscionable.  Yes, these are scenes from a marriage (and could even end up like 'Scenes from a Marriage') but the analogy of foxhole buddies holds for me.  Her view of others -- the scorn and contempt towards Martha, whom she helped destroy (I remember well the scene about 'who wears the pants?' when Philip fretted about Martha wanting a child -- as they talked about a honeytrapped woman in the home they share with their living children), towards Irina, who lost Misha/Philip, it's all well beyond the four corners of any assignment to any mission.  The need to maintain her superiority over Philip - okay, maybe it's the result of still processing Timoshev's rape.  I must say, at this point, I don't curr.  Elizabeth's just such a shit. 

[AliShibaz]

Oh dear! Apologies galore! I'm going to leave the start of my post here because it should serve as a reminder to me that the very least I can do is check the first page and first few posts on that page before posting something without checking any of the posts first. I'm so sorry.

Someone made the connection on the very first page of this thread and I failed to read that before posting my opinion. For shame on me!

.................................................

I don't know if anyone has yet commented on the significance of the episode title, "The Magic of David Copperfield: The Statue of Liberty Disappears ... but ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh no! Oh no! Oh no!  I really must go watch this epi again and I really must read all the posts in this thread before I post anything else. I have gotten away with not doing that on other forums. But the people who belong to this forum are just too savvy for me to get away with that kind of behavior here.

Edited May 5, 2016 by AliShibaz
Sheer Stupidity!

[Midnight Cheese]

Yes, AliShibaz, I agree - the disappearing American woman (who may not really go away after all: one can hope...). 

[AliShibaz]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The more I watched Paige tonight, the more I thought "That teenager is more likely to turn them in than anyone on the show."

I know, I know, but that girl is pissed, and hormonal, and hates what she's being forced to do, and hon?  It's only going to get worse.  Stan's right across the street after all, one tantrum is all it would take.

The thing I find most interesting about this plot line is that E seems so very knowledgeable about how they must treat Pastor Tim to help him decide not to rat them out. But she has missed all the same signs about how to treat her daughter. Seems like she has done all the worst possible things she could do to her daughter even though she knows enough to tell her what to do to avoid doing those same things to the Pastor and his wife. She really ought to know better. It's as if she is pushing Paige into the arms of the FBI and encouraging her to rat out her parents.

Bad, bad move Elizabeth. Shame on you! Paige is gonna betray you if you don't apologize to her and make things right with her.

[madam magpie]

34 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

Amazing episode, amazing thread as always. 

I'll just post my feelings.  I swear I'm not a chowderhead, and love nuance and this show for how well-written it's been from the start.  I have to say, agreeing of course that Elizabeth was formed by excruciating circumstance into who we see, that I can't stomach her.  Well done, writers.  (Not being sarcastic).  Her complete buy-in, if out of necessity, to the absurdity of insisting Martha was an 'agent' just as Gregory was - when he knew about Philizabeth, whereas Martha knew Elizabeth as 'Jennifer' and her own parents were seduced by the whole Westerfeld clan at her wedding, and her rants against Paige have finally put me where I simply can't abide her any longer.  Yes, she's been used and brutalized by her country, but her own brutality towards weaker people is repulsive and utterly unconscionable.  Yes, these are scenes from a marriage (and could even end up like 'Scenes from a Marriage') but the analogy of foxhole buddies holds for me.  Her view of others -- the scorn and contempt towards Martha, whom she helped destroy (I remember well the scene about 'who wears the pants?' when Philip fretted about Martha wanting a child -- as they talked about a honeytrapped woman in the home they share with their living children), towards Irina, who lost Misha/Philip, it's all well beyond the four corners of any assignment to any mission.  The need to maintain her superiority over Philip - okay, maybe it's the result of still processing Timoshev's rape.  I must say, at this point, I don't curr.  Elizabeth's just such a shit. 

I don't think she specifically directs her brutality against weaker people. I think she directs it toward either collateral damage (unfortunate, but must be sacrificed for the collective) or actual threats. She's often shaken or stunned by what they do; Lisa last night is one example, but when Philip killed Timoshev in the pilot, Elizabeth was shaken. When Philip went off on Paige about respecting Jesus but not her parents, Elizabeth tried to calm him down. She's brutal, no doubt, but she's not heartless.

Martha is a different beast. I think Elizabeth sees Martha the way she does because she's painfully jealous of what Elizabeth sees as Martha reaching Philip's heart. I think she's wrong; Philip's heart seems, to me, very clearly to belong to Elizabeth. But I don't think she really believes that. So she's full of rage and fear as a result of her husband being in love with and preferring another woman. And she also doesn't feel entitled to feel that way because their marriage is an arrangement at its core. So that probably enrages her as well.

Paige is trickier, but I think that's all fear. They're on a real ledge here as a result of Paige outing them to Pastor Tim. I think Elizabeth sees the stuff with Paige as literal survival: for her, Paige, Philip, Henry, and the cause. If Paige fails, they all die (in her mind). So she will do whatever she must to keep things on track. Abiding Paige's feelings may get them killed, so...sorry, Paige. Mama will be brutal to keep you in line.

[Umbelina]

Another interesting thing in that interview with the show runners, they don't see Elizabeth as being especially cruel to Paige.  They even say that if Philip had been there instead of Elizabeth, he would have laid down the law in the same way.  Parents sometimes do have to be very clear, and parent can also become angry or worried, frankly, for far less reasons than Paige has given  hers.

[madam magpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Another interesting thing in that interview with the show runners, they don't see Elizabeth as being especially cruel to Paige.  They even say that if Philip had been there instead of Elizabeth, he would have laid down the law in the same way.  Parents sometimes do have to be very clear, and parent can also become angry or worried, frankly, for far less reasons than Paige has given  hers.

I agree with that. My mother was much more strident with me as a kid than Elizabeth has ever been with Paige. I think what's brutal is what Elizabeth is forcing Paige to do, not the way she yelled at her.

[Chaos Theory]

I read a few reviews on the episode and Variety had a great one.  It called Eiizabeth and Philip two damaged people living in a house on fire reaching out to each other. 

It also commended the show for not taking the easy route and killing Martha which would have been too easy an out for a lot of reason but instead left her alive and a big emotional wedge between Philip and Elizabeth.   

Both points I agree with.  Even if Martha is never seen again the ghost of her will always be there between Philip and Elizabeth.  Killing her would have destroyed Philip maybe enough to hasten the endgame for him but keeping her alive but gone puts a steady strain on him. 

[Midnight Cheese]

41 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I don't think she specifically directs her brutality against weaker people. I think she directs it toward either collateral damage (unfortunate, but must be sacrificed for the collective) or actual threats. She's often shaken or stunned by what they do; Lisa last night is one example, but when Philip killed Timoshev in the pilot, Elizabeth was shaken. When Philip went off on Paige about respecting Jesus but not her parents, Elizabeth tried to calm him down. She's brutal, no doubt, but she's not heartless.

Martha is a different beast. I think Elizabeth sees Martha the way she does because she's painfully jealous of what Elizabeth sees as Martha reaching Philip's heart. I think she's wrong; Philip's heart seems, to me, very clearly to belong to Elizabeth. But I don't think she really believes that. So she's full of rage and fear as a result of her husband being in love with and preferring another woman. And she also doesn't feel entitled to feel that way because their marriage is an arrangement at its core. So that probably enrages her as well.

Paige is trickier, but I think that's all fear. They're on a real ledge here as a result of Paige outing them to Pastor Tim. I think Elizabeth sees the stuff with Paige as literal survival: for her, Paige, Philip, Henry, and the cause. If Paige fails, they all die (in her mind). So she will do whatever she must to keep things on track. Abiding Paige's feelings may get them killed, so...sorry, Paige. Mama will be brutal to keep you in line.

It's interesting.  On some level, the show is about false union, whether that's in a marriage, or holding a country together, if barely.  Not just the dream-state/nightmare state that marriage can be over the course of a long marriage.  (Whether the marriage is 'real' or not, arranged or not, legal or not.)

Impressing Paige into service and subsuming her daughter's Paige's individual personhood, character, soul, into an imagined and distant collective near the point of fracture and implosion is an unbelievably brutal act.  Arguably, it's the act of all parenthood.  But Elizabeth knows the falsehood: she knows Paige is on some level a native-born American.  I mean, she knows it beyond the descriptive, legal reality of that state.  Brutal but not heartless, I will give you that.  It's all wrong-hearted. 

I will never agree with analogizing between Martha and Gregory and the ironic use of 'agent' and the concept of 'agency' is why.  Gregory WAS an 'agent' with 'agency.'  Martha on a certain level was not.  And Elizabeth is why.  When we destroy others - and with less of the unassailable right that E and P have in raising and on some level, at least temporarily destroying Paige - we don't get to sit back and define them as 'simple' (Zhukov's dog) yet maintain they had 'agency.'  The word choice is deployed with typical 'Americans' perfection.  And it makes me loathe Elizabeth.   Lisa and Martha cannot with any intellectual honesty be called agents in the vein of Gregory or Fred (season 2).  Pawns, sure.  The word matters to me, a lot.  "Agency" is an illusion (hey hey, David Copperfield) as even Elizabeth knows, post-EST.  Having her sell it is repellent, at least for me, even recognizing the why of it all.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Midnight Cheese

[madam magpie]

9 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

It's interesting.  On some level, the show is about false union, whether that's in a marriage, or holding a country together, if barely.  Not just the dream-state/nightmare state that marriage can be over the course of a long marriage.  (Whether the marriage is 'real' or not, arranged or not, legal or not.)

Impressing Paige into service and subsuming her daughter's Paige's individual personhood, character, soul, into an imagined and distant collective near the point of fracture and implosion is an unbelievably brutal act.  Arguably, it's the act of all parenthood.  But Elizabeth knows the falsehood: she knows Paige is on some level a native-born American.  I mean, she knows it beyond the descriptive, legal reality of that state.  Brutal but not heartless, I will give you that.  It's all wrong-hearted. 

I will never agree with analogizing between Martha and Gregory and the ironic use of 'agent' and the concept of 'agency' is why.  Gregory WAS an 'agent' with 'agency.'  Martha on a certain level was not.  And Elizabeth is why.  When we destroy others - and with less of the unassailable right that E and P have in raising and on some level, at least temporarily destroying Paige - we don't get to sit back and define them as 'simple' (Zhukov's dog) yet maintain they had 'agency.'  The word choice is deployed with typical 'Americans' perfection.  And it makes me loathe Elizabeth. 

Why do you blame Elizabeth for Martha's lack of agency? Philip was Martha's handler.

I actually think Martha made many choices throughout the series with enough information to know that what she was doing was shady. She didn't know she was aiding the KGB, but I think she figured out that what she was doing was illegal and she chose to keep doing it.

As for Elizabeth knowing the falsehood regarding Paige, I'm not actually sure she does. She knows it superficially, of course, but I suspect she thinks that with enough information and training, Paige could eventually be made to see the righteousness and rightness of the cause. Think about it the other way: If you'd raised a Soviet child during the Cold War, don't you think you could convince her to love and fight for America? I think I could...though whether I ACTUALLY could, I don't know.

[Totale]

6 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

I don't think it's Lisa's blood. It's looking like a wound with blood running down, either Lisa scratched her or pulled her earring or something like that. 

Pulled earring is what I thought. I assumed now dead but still stirring girl wasn't and we didn't see the fight.

I'm calling this now, and you can check back here and credit me later if I turn out to be right.  Martha's stoicism getting on the plane was all an act.  She doesn't want to go to an unknown future in Russia.  I don't believe either Gabe or the Residenura's assurances that she got to Cuba and was off to Prague the next day. She waited until the plane was over open water and garroted the pilot with her ponytail holder, sending him, her, the unregistered plane and the deadly rat she didn't know about into the drink.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Totale

[Midnight Cheese]

I blame Elizabeth for indulging in some serious bullshit regarding Martha.  She's been derisive, nasty, and competitive, and she was operating with complete information and Martha wasn't, and she's kept her family, while Martha's lost hers (I refer to her parents, not to Clark/Philip).  It's self-indulgent and mean as hell and terribly, cruelly unfair.  I don't care about her feelings in this sphere, but the cheese stands alone.  YMMV. 

[madam magpie]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

I blame Elizabeth for indulging in some serious bullshit regarding Martha.  She's been derisive, nasty, and competitive, and she was operating with complete information and Martha wasn't, and she's kept her family, while Martha's lost hers (I refer to her parents, not to Clark/Philip).  It's self-indulgent and mean as hell and terribly, cruelly unfair.  I don't care about her feelings in this sphere, but the cheese stands alone.  YMMV. 

But why isn't it Philip's fault? He was her handler. He brought her in and kept her going. He was operating with even more complete information than Elizabeth because he was the one handling Martha as an asset. 

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

So she's full of rage and fear as a result of her husband being in love with and preferring another woman. And she also doesn't feel entitled to feel that way because their marriage is an arrangement at its core. So that probably enrages her as well.

And it also probably is part of why she protects herself against vulnerability so well, which feeds into Philip's own insecurities about her. For all that he's given her reason to worry about Martha or even Irina, it's Elizabeth who chose another man as superior to Philip very explicitly for years and made a point of saying how wanting he was as a person compared to both her and that man. So I think while she sees herself as being horribly vulnerable at moments like this with Philip, and probably feels like he's the one who's more confident about all this, he's probably not. He just hides his vulnerability differently than she does.

I mean, even in this fight the thing Philip kept hitting was that Elizabeth didn't want him, looked down on him in very ways that she did feel in the past and told their superiors she did. It's not even so much about her preferring a specific person to him but her preferring so many people to him. Elizabeth seems to have some really deeply rooted fears about not being loved, or being loved only if she proves herself by being the best. Philip is potentially so far gone he just takes it as a given he's not loved and he can live without it.

I love, though, how even with Elizabeth bearing down ever harder, he slips away into yet another disguise for a secret trip to the cemetery. I think this is also why EST is so appealing to him. It's not that EST itself is so smart--as someone else noted elsewhere, it's more like this just happened to be the thing that sparked the click moment in his head that already brewing. But the idea that there can be truths in himself that he knows and understands that are just his? The whole thing just seems so fitting for somebody in his situation and possibly his background (if we knew his background).

46 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Another interesting thing in that interview with the show runners, they don't see Elizabeth as being especially cruel to Paige.  They even say that if Philip had been there instead of Elizabeth, he would have laid down the law in the same way.  Parents sometimes do have to be very clear, and parent can also become angry or worried, frankly, for far less reasons than Paige has given  hers.

I really agree with them there. I didn't think Elizabeth was being particularly cruel. Angrier than she might have been, like Philip was in the Bible scene, because Paige was reflecting issues she was already having with Philip. But it didn't seem like patience was getting through Paige's glossy-haired American head. She's still arguing "But...but my feelings!" as if none of this could really be that big of a deal. I think it's going to be.

18 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

Impressing Paige into service and subsuming her daughter's Paige's individual personhood, character, soul, into an imagined and distant collective near the point of fracture and implosion is an unbelievably brutal act. 

At this point she's not doing that, though. She has had second thoughts about putting her into the same life as she has, and she's not really working on recruiting her now. And that was despite the fact that she originally thought it was almost her duty as a good mother. her issue with Paige now is more just getting her to understand the reality of the situation and act accordingly. (Although I do think there's some anger there to at how Paige can not get it.)

[BW Manilowe]

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was impressed with this episode and noticed it was directed by Rhys.  I normally don't notice, so I'm not sure if he does this regularly or not. It was an episode that I found myself wanting Philip to do or say certain things, which he did not. The EST influence perhaps.  Before Martha boarded the plane, I wanted him to comfort her.  His words would have meant a lot.  Something like, "I really cared for you.  I do want you to have a good life.  Know that you meant so much to me."  Small words that I think were true. Why not give her that in parting.  It seemed cruel to me.  

Then when Elizabeth tried to comfort Philip.  It was awkward, but she was trying.  But, no, he was at first mopey, then disagreeable.  What was the point.  HE was being honest, but still a jerk.  Then, when Stan came over.  He seemed so depressed. I mean, he really was a turn off for Stan.  If you really wanted to know more about what was going on in the FBI office, agree when E invites him to dinner, instead just standing there.  Rude, IMO.  And don't Philip and Gabriel realize that the FBI have Martha's parent's phone bugged?  Of course, they would.  So, why suggest that Philip could CALL them with a message?  Crazy talk, IMO.

Elizabeth was my favorite last night.  She bent over backwards to be supportive of Philip.  To me, he provoked her.  She tries EST and gave her honest opinion about it.  Isn't that what EST stands for?  Speaking the truth?  She did and he goes off.  And I agree.  I was thinking what she was, before she said. EST seems like a gimmick to me.  E tried to get the woman to go to AA, but no....E had no choice. You can't reason with a drunk person.  

And Elizabeth had to address Paige.  The girl is a dangerous prima donna.  She needed the dress down.  It was for Paige's own safety too.  If she spouts off again, the Center could take Paige down.  E knows this. 

Why is there talk of Martha being dead?  I thought it was clear she was alive and well.  Didn't Titianna and Oleg confirm this in private? 

Is Gaad gone for good?  I hope not. I like him.  Can someone tell me what he was advocating with Stan?

This was the first episode Matthew Rhys's directed (at least of this show; can't remember if he directed any episodes of Brothers and Sisters, his previous US show, or not). Noah Emmerich (Stan) has directed at least 3 eps, I think (1 ep in a previous season, 2 eps--back-to-back or almost--this season). He might've directed more eps than that.

[Midnight Cheese]

54 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

But why isn't it Philip's fault? He was her handler. He brought her in and kept her going. He was operating with even more complete information than Elizabeth because he was the one handling Martha as an asset. 

We're not addressing the same 'fault.'  I've written several times and stand behind my point that Elizabeth is the one retrofitting Martha into a role she was never playing, and my point has nothing to do with Philip, ultimately.  Elizabeth helped game Martha and is insistent that any conversation re Martha go her way - Elizabeth's way.  I think we need to just YMMV this one. 

[babyPhat279]

Paige is stuck in a bad situation, but I can see why Elizabeth was so tough on her. We've seen Phillip be pretty menacing and Paige just snots back most of the time. Clearly this girl needs the fear of god put in her (except you know, without the "god" part).

Thinking about the episode a little more, I'm now kind of disappointed in Martha's last words. It's like being lonely is her only riff. Perhaps if she could find some happiness by herself she wouldn't be in this mess.

[madam magpie]

51 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

We're not addressing the same 'fault.'  I've written several times and stand behind my point that Elizabeth is the one retrofitting Martha into a role she was never playing, and my point has nothing to do with Philip, ultimately.  Elizabeth helped game Martha and is insistent that any conversation re Martha go her way - Elizabeth's way.  I think we need to just YMMV this one. 

I'm just trying to understand your point (I still don't), but if you'd rather not talk about it anymore, OK.

Sistermagpie: I totally agree about Paige. It's like any parent who talks and talks and punishes and insists about something, and the kid just keeps arguing! I like the parallel.

Also, I loved Elizabeth's eye roll at Philip and his EST book after she got her cigarettes. That made me laugh.

And...do we know what Elizabeth's game is with the Mary Kay lady?

Edited May 6, 2016 by madam magpie

[RedHawk]

I agree that the blood on Elizabeth's neck was her own, but I wonder how she changed out of her wig and didn't realize she needed to stop her wound from bleeding. I guess that was how much in shock she was. Kerri played that scene really well.

It really bugs me that we never found out what happened to Martha's wedding ring -- the one she kept hidden in the box by her apartment door, and that the FBI search did not find. Maybe she's been carrying it in her purse. If I were in her place I would have silently handed it back to "Clark" before I stepped stoically into the plane, but then, hey, a gold ring could be traded for something in the Soviet Union. I'm nothing if not practical, and would rather have gold in my purse than a fleeting moment of emotional satisfaction. ;-)

[Darren]

Re: Elizabeth going off on Paige right after Paige pulled the "I can't control how I feel" card, I think what's happening there is all about Elizabeth recognizing that Paige (in E's view) still has a woefully inadequate view of reality. Elizabeth is an idealist. But she believes in almost any imaginable means to a desired end. And she believes the rest of the world works the same way. And in that worldview, Paige's "feelings" card just sounds (to E) like a babe walking into a den of lions complaining about a mood. In that moment, with the "feelings" objection Paige offered, E acted totally motherly. She mothered Paige in the only way that made sense to her. She was protecting herself, yes, and protecting the family, yes - but also protecting Paige. In that moment, beyond the immediate and omnipresent danger, she saw in Paige a woefully unprepared burgeoning young adult.

[Tetraneutron]

I don't understand people acting like Paige is some bratty teenager. Her behaviour reflects on Elizabeth, Soviet superspy. Elizabeth is doing a terrible job of handling her latest agent. Because said agent is pissed off and in a perfect position to blow everything up - whether she's rebelling or thinks it's the right thing to do or just doesn't trust her parents any more. Have we ever seen anyone mishandle an agent so badly as Elizabeth is mishandling Paige? Putting all that responsibility on her (not just with Pastor Tim but with Henry) and taking away anything that might function as a release valve? Not having her get anything out of it? It's headed towards disaster and I think it's interesting Elizabeth doesn't see it. 

When she blew up at Paige, that wasn't her handling an agent, that was sort of, but not entirely, a mother disciplining her child. She treats Paige either as a daughter or as a mark, whatever is most convenient to Elizabeth at the time. And that's not the way a disciplined KGB agent is supposed to behave. It's evidence that the marriage and family is causing Elizabeth to break down. 

[whiporee]

You know what? No one has mentioned Annalise in this yet. I think if you're analyzing Phillip's reaction, you have to take into account that he's now convinced two women that he loved them, and both of them are out of his life. I don't think his connection to Annalise was what it was to Martha, but it was still significant, and she ended up dead and in a suitcase. 

We've seen Elizabeth kill strangers; we've seen Phillip do the same. But it's a different animal when it's someone you know and someone you've spent a lot of time with. You can't help but develop affection for them. And now Phillip's been responsible for their personal disasters. This life sucks, and now they want to bring his daughter into it? The PP who talked about Elizabeth being a slave in every sense of the word was right on -- the state controls every single bit of her, and Phillip, too. His other son -- the one he didn't even know about -- was in the Army, following orders. They have no control over their lives at all, and when forced to see up close what they've done to people's lives -- people who have gone out of their way and put themselves at personal risk to help them -- it can't help but destroy bits, if not all of you.

If I were him, I'd take Paige and Henry and run. As far as I could get. 

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, whiporee said:

You know what? No one has mentioned Annalise in this yet. I think if you're analyzing Phillip's reaction, you have to take into account that he's now convinced two women that he loved them, and both of them are out of his life. I don't think his connection to Annalise was what it was to Martha, but it was still significant, and she ended up dead and in a suitcase. 

Yeah, I've thought Anneleise was very much fueling his determination to keep Martha safe even though she was never said. It is important that Philip was involved in 2 longterm affairs with women he wouldn't have chosen for himself but found himself feeling connected to and felt responsible for. Elizabeth does sex work too but she doesn't have those longterm things.

I loved, btw, that line of Lisa's where she was telling "Michelle" to leave "Jack," projecting her own situation onto her. Maurice figured out quickly that this was Elizabeth's operation, recognizing another manipulator, but Lisa saw her as a victim of a man like herself. But her line about Jack was so perfect, about how he probably had god knows how many women doing all sorts of things for him. Because...yeah, that's exactly what Philip is. Didn't she even call him an asshole like Stan? Of course it was actually Elizabeth in this case who had Lisa doing things for her, but the line was totally fitting for Philip.

[jjj]

I don't know if there is any meaning to this, but the last show of Season 3 was titled "March 8, 1983," and the Copperfield illusion was on television on April 8, 1983.  I have not read/heard all the showrunner interviews, but wondered if they were going for some sort of symmetry with these dates?  

It's also a reminder that the characters like Lisa and Kimmie were just in the Jenners lives in recent weeks, not a year ago.  The time between seasons is jarring!   And only a few weeks since Pastor Tim learned about the Jenners' background.  Next week, it will finally be several months later, which feels right! 

[scartact]

1 hour ago, Tetraneutron said:

When she blew up at Paige, that wasn't her handling an agent, that was sort of, but not entirely, a mother disciplining her child.

I'm not quite sure if I fully understand your comments, but I kinda felt like the point of the scene was the intersecting subtexts of both mother/daughter and handler/agent.

The show almost always operates on the two subtexts of the spy level and the family level (especially when it comes to the Jennings). In this case, the spy stuff is literally happening on the family level, yet it also effects them on the spy level. There's definitely a tension here between Elizabeth fully indicting Paige into the spy game by basically laying out a game plan for Paige and her newly acquired "operatives". In this sense, she is most definitely treating her daughter like a spy.

But, on another level, part of what fuels Elizabeth's anger toward Paige is that Paige's actions have not just endangered both Philip and herself and their work, it most definitely has personally hurt her and the incredible effort she and Philip have gone through to preserve and protect their family. It's probably even worse and downright painful that it's her daughter. I'm almost certain Elizabeth sees the impending disaster, but she has almost no other way or solution to handle it, (and in Chloramphenicol she and Philip had already clarified with Gabriel their awareness that they're choosing the very hard way of handling it). She isn't Philip in that she's trying to find the source of where her doubts lie. She's doing everything she can to eradicate these doubts, and thus pulls off any perceived veil hiding that what they essentially wanted Paige to do is work Pastor Tim and Alice.

[AliShibaz]

4 hours ago, Totale said:

Pulled earring is what I thought. I assumed now dead but still stirring girl wasn't and we didn't see the fight.

I'm calling this now, and you can check back here and credit me later if I turn out to be right.  Martha's stoicism getting on the plane was all an act.  She doesn't want to go to an unknown future in Russia.  I don't believe either Gabe or the Residenura's assurances that she got to Cuba and was off to Prague the next day. She waited until the plane was over open water and garroted the pilot with her ponytail holder, sending him, her, the unregistered plane and the deadly rat she didn't know about into the drink.

OMG! I must acknowledge your courage to come out and make such a bold prediction. I have no idea whether I have the stones to agree with you or not. But I certainly am impressed with such a courageous prediction.

I would like to agree with you except for one big problem. Martha is a rather gentle kind of soul who has virtually no experience in physically harming people - let alone killing them. Going from a lifestyle as a rather meek secretary to a cold blooded murderer is a huge step - especially if she thinks it through and realizes that it may seem a whole lot easier than it will actually turn out. It's like one of the younger would-be agents (was it Hans?) once talked about with Elizabeth. I think it was Elizabeth who said that these kinds of operations rarely go as you plan. In other words, the pilot will not want to go along with sitting still and allowing Martha to garrot him. In fact, the odds are that he may well have some anti-garroting training and have a surprise in store for Martha. But even if he does not and Martha is able to murder him without any problem, she will then be faced with a few minutes alone in an airplane that is likely going to crash into the ocean. At that point, she may well decide to change her mind. She may decide that she has made an unfortunate big mistake and would very much like to take things back and prefer to live in Russia instead of crashing the plane. Of course, you never can tell about these kinds of things. At that point, she may decide to try her piloting skills and take over  the controls to avoid crashing. Unfortunately, that is almost certainly going to prove to be much, much easier said than done.

No matter how things works out, it's bound to be a very entertaining sequence of events (entertaining for ghouls like me). But, it almost certainly will not work out as smoothly as Martha had planned and it will almost certainly not go according to her plan. If she thinks this through before she follows through, I think she will wind up shaking like a leaf. After all, there is just no telling how such a thing will turn out - except that she will likely wind up crashing the plane and either dying or doing some serious harm to herself. If she lives, she is bound to regret this attempt for the rest of her life (which may well be kind of short-term).

My prediction is that if she does think it through before actually trying to commit the murder, she will be unlikely to ever find the courage to do any such thing. If she doesn't think it through, it will then become one big huge mess and it probably will not be very entertaining for the audience. I think we will just groan and say, "Oh Martha! Why? Why? Why? .... followed by a final ..... "Oh dear!  Poor Martha!".

Nonetheless, I think this is something that I certainly would like to see - Ghoul that I am.

Edited May 6, 2016 by AliShibaz

[SlackerInc]

That would be quite the development, but since the showrunners say they have been striving for realism, it probably won't happen.  I do hope we check in with Martha in the USSR from time to time though.

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth came back from killing Lisa with blood on her face?  Was that hers or Lisa's?  And why did she seem either drunk or shellshocked?  Was that the real signal they were at the end of their rope?  The Elizabeth we've known would not travel from a murder scene in that state.

[AliShibaz]

SlackerInc,

You have certainly raised some good questions. I have no idea about the answers. However, it seems to me that sometimes the show runners deliberately give us tiny "clues" or "puzzles" and leave the answers up to us.

I must admit the questions you raised seem to be excellent small puzzles and if anyone can answer them, my guess is those answers will provide us with some really excellent info about the show - or will show us some really serious errors stemming from problems with the co-ordination of certain scenes. My guess is that they are some clues to some very fine puzzles.

The only thing I would like to consider is that perhaps Lisa was so drunk that she didn't realize Maurice was in the house and Elizabeth wound up killing both of them. I have despised Maurice ever since he pushed his way into this story and I've always longed for the day when he would try and push around Elizabeth. Surpise, big man! This little lady will kick your ass for a while and then terminate you with maximum prejudice.

If I'm wrong about that, I sure do hope the day will come when we get to see Elizabeth say goodbye to Maurice the thug and bully - once and for all! What a creep!

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

I was totally waiting for either Martha to be shot on the plane or for the plane to blow up!

Obviously, that didn't happen, but it was a Beechcraft Bonanza, made famous by Buddy Holly et. al. on February 3, 1959.

I'm sorry, but every time Philip, and now Elizabeth, show up in an EST seminar, all I can think of is John Denver in the back of the auditorium, starry-eyed and mumbling "Far out."

I think there's a sharp divide between Elizabeth disciplining Paige for normal teenage transgressions and not wanting to spy on Pastor Tim.  It's not staying out after curfew, or seeing the wrong guy (hello, Madame Secretary).  It's spying.  It's anathema to everything Paige knows about her world.  Elizabeth should understand that, and, at the least, reinforce the concept with Paige that she will likely be killed if she keeps screwing up.  It's not really about obeying Mom and Dad in the normal sense. 

ETA:  If Elizabeth has indeed been injured in a fight, a cover story will need to be established.  A ripped earring will leave more than a mark.  I am assuming that the cleanup crew will be thorough enough to find and remove that evidence.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Dowel Jones

[jjj]

I also hope that we get updates about Martha.  And if the encounter two weeks ago turns into a little Clarkovitch, a time jump of seven months will show us whether that is happening, if the camera pans over to Moscow.  When Elizabeth mentioned Philip's former lover Irina and their possible child, I wondered if her anger about that would get magnified by another love child. 

[madam magpie]

I don't think it's a pulled earring. In the picture posted upthread, Elizabeth's earring is in and looks OK. I thought that when she went in for the kill with the broken bottle, Lisa must have struggled and somehow Elizabeth cut her neck.

[Tetraneutron]

5 hours ago, scartact said:

The show almost always operates on the two subtexts of the spy level and the family level (especially when it comes to the Jennings). In this case, the spy stuff is literally happening on the family level, yet it also effects them on the spy level. There's definitely a tension here between Elizabeth fully indicting Paige into the spy game by basically laying out a game plan for Paige and her newly acquired "operatives". In this sense, she is most definitely treating her daughter like a spy.

But, on another level, part of what fuels Elizabeth's anger toward Paige is that Paige's actions have not just endangered both Philip and herself and their work, it most definitely has personally hurt her and the incredible effort she and Philip have gone through to preserve and protect their family. It's probably even worse and downright painful that it's her daughter. I'm almost certain Elizabeth sees the impending disaster, but she has almost no other way or solution to handle it.

She's not really treating Paige like a spy. If she is she's doing a terrible job. She's hurt and lashing out. Elizabeth always hated the church and hated that Paige felt closer to Pastor Tim than to her and now she sees a way she can punish Paige for not being someone she can control and she's taking it. If she were treating Paige like a spy she'd be doing a much better job. She's never had a spy so sullen and angry and liable to tell someone or fight back. She's saying she's treating Paige like a spy but really treating her like a naughty child who broke the rules, while lying to Paige and herself that she's treating Paige like any other spy. And it's going to end badly because Elizabeth isn't being disciplined. She feels like Paige owes her for not killing Pastor Tim, like Paige is a spolied child refusing to clear her room about the whole situation. She's letting her hurt and anger influence how she handles Paige. Which is stupid from an actual spy perspective. 

Quote

Can someone explain to me why Elizabeth came back from killing Lisa with blood on her face?  Was that hers or Lisa's?  And why did she seem either drunk or shellshocked?  Was that the real signal they were at the end of their rope?  The Elizabeth we've known would not travel from a murder scene in that state.

She hit Lisa with a broken bottle. There would be massive amounts of blood. And that's why Gabriel gave them a vacation - because he saw how shellshocked Elizabeth was by what's a pretty routine murder from someone who murders people all the time. He saw the stress of everything was making them snap.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Tetraneutron

[AliShibaz]

icemiser69,

I was very impressed with your post. I thought it showed some great insights and was right on the money.

I was wondering why E was so upset and of course - you are right - it was misplaced anger. You were also right about P. Martha was a simple woman and she was incredibly vulnerable and P must know he took advantage of her. P has a lot more compassion than E who will do anything to get the job done. Remember how casual she was when she kicked that jack out from under the car?

You helped me to understand a few things that I previously did not understand at all and I really enjoyed that. Thanks.

Edited May 6, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Haleth]

The story Gabriel told of turning in his best friend, in front of his wife and children, was chilling.  He felt no regret, only sadness that it had to be done.  Yet it was still kind of funny to hear him and Claudia talk about kids these days.  

I'm sorry that Gaad was fired retired before P&E were discovered.  I know it's speculated that Oleg will turn, but I'm wondering if the final season of this show will have P&E turning themselves in, making a deal with the FBI to go into witness protection.  P&E were so tense (up until their vacation) and ready to explode (poor Lisa--took me a while to remember who she was), so maybe in order to protect their kids they will decide to sever ties with the KGB.  Probably a poor decision since the FBI seems so incompetent  on this show.

I think the cut on Elizabeth's neck was from being nicked by flying glass.  Lisa was in no condition to fight back.

Alison Wright knocked it out of the park again with her (mostly) wordless departure.  Superb acting.

Run, Young Hee!

Edited May 6, 2016 by Haleth

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, jjj said:

I also hope that we get updates about Martha.  And if the encounter two weeks ago turns into a little Clarkovitch, a time jump of seven months will show us whether that is happening, if the camera pans over to Moscow.  When Elizabeth mentioned Philip's former lover Irina and their possible child, I wondered if her anger about that would get magnified by another love child. 

I think this is exactly correct and that's why they did the big time jump. I think the writers want to get Martha back on camera soon and they want her next scene to be either very pregnant or a baby already born thus the big jump. I think Martha is still in this because they know how important her story has been to the show.

Ok, this might be crazy but if they open the jar with the rat would the deadly virus expose everyone like the other one did? When Martha was staring at the peanut butter my first thought was that they had stuffed the rat down into the PB to hide it. Otherwise, maybe she was realizing she was giving up such a simple little thing as Jif PB?