S06.E02: Home

[Avaleigh]

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...while A+J=T rejects evidence and keeps on finding explanations for why the desired conclusion is true despite the lack of positive evidence (A+J references on the show equivalent to even one of the many R+L references over the seasons) and, now, the show's explicit presentation of reasons why a non-Targ can communicate with dragons: evidence that doesn't fit the theory is explained away instead of leading to a reconsideration of the theory's validity.

I guess I disagree that the dragons not roasting Dany's friends means that anyone who is a friend to Dany could potentially become a dragon rider. There are two available dragons right now and there's no way IMO that Missandei is going to become a dragon rider. Why not? She should have just as good a chance as Tyrion. Actually, she should have a better chance because she's been around them more  and is Dany's best friend but I'm guessing that it's not just going to be about the dragons being nice to Dany's friends. For one thing, Viserion and Rhaegal haven't ever seen Tyrion around Dany. They have no way of knowing that he's a friend yet somehow they're comfortable with him and already seem to trust him. 

I also disagree that show (or book) evidence is being rejected. There is no evidence that Missandei is able to touch or communicate with the dragons in the way that Tyrion did nor have I seen any evidence on the show that suggests she'll be able to ride a dragon. Tyrion on the other hand, it's very much looking that way.

As far as the evidence not being in the show, I definitely disagree. Not only do we have things from the first season like the conversation between Jon and Tyrion that takes on new depth if they turn out to be uncle and nephew but we have all of the pointed remarks from Tyrion about bastards. IMO Tyrion seems to know on some subconscious level that he is one. I also think about Tyrion's earlier appearance where they went out of their way to give him the pale blonde hair that's described in the books. Granted, they stopped caring about the hair of multiple characters in the story most notably with Shireen and Jaime, but I can't help but suspect that there's a reason they started out giving Tyrion the hair that was described in the books. Hair that sets him apart from his golden Lannister relatives. Tommen's hair becomes gold just as every other Lannister. Tyrion is the only Lannister who is different when it comes to his hair. Considering how much hair color is emphasized in the books (it's all the proof that Ned and Stannis have) it's surprising to me how easily people brush this off when it comes to Tyrion.

Regarding actual evidence in terms of dialogue on the show, I think that Tywin admitting that he made a sacrifice that was against his very nature for the sake of the family was an indication that the theory is true. I thought Tywin was believable and truthful when he told Tyrion that if he'd given in to his desire, he would have had him drowned in the sea on day one. I don't think Tywin's admission has nearly as much depth (nor is it much of a sacrifice) if he's saying that the one time he took one for the team was when he allowed his second son to live. If we're to believe that Tywin made a genuine sacrifice, to me it makes sense that he's talking about the time he allowed the kid that he isn't sure is his to live. 

I also think that Tyrion's conversation with Dany 'Two terrible children from two terrible fathers' is better if it turns out that they're two terrible children from the same father. (Obviously this is subjective but to me it's more appealing.)

People who want to believe that Tyrion is pure Lannister disregard Tywin flat out telling Tyrion that he isn't his son. Tywin uses his final words to tell Tyrion the horrible truth IMO. IIRC (I might be completely misremembering) I don't think that show Tywin tells Jaime that he isn't his son. 

The show has mentioned Joanna a few times now and I get the impression that they want audiences to remember her. 

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That's my working theory as well, Lightbringer is simply the sword that AA wields, in this case Long Claw. For some reason I just think the idea that it's not an actual sword but a metaphor so effing lame, if magic can transform death into life it can damn well transform Long Claw into Lightbringer. 

I agree with you Blixie about thinking that it would be lame if Lightbringer doesn't turn out to be an actual sword. The reason I don't like the idea of any random Valyrian sword being turned into Lightbringer is because that isn't what Azor Ahai had to do. The sword didn't become magical just because he was wielding it. It required a sacrifice. A sacrifice that was the most painful one that he could make. The idea that Azor Ahai Reborn is just going to be able to make whatever sword he happens to be holding into Lightbringer makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't he have to make a sacrifice just as the original guy did? 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Avaleigh
To change the phrasing of Tywin's sacrifice.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

It's all laid out in the crypt scene in Episode One, which is when I got it. So did a friend I showed the scene to a year later. She still hasn't read any of the books--not interested enough. But she popped right out with the whole thing during the crypt scene. All of it. Because all of the evidence is right there in that scene.

It's actually extremely clear from the first episode, if you rewatch season one. The conversations between Ned and Robert are mostly about setting that up, actually. It's established in the first episode that Ned won't discuss Jon Snow's mother. I was unsullied when I figured it out, and so was the friend who picked it up in Episode One a year later. The conversation between Ned and Snow where Ned says, "you may not be a Stark, but you have my blood," makes it clear, too. If he were Snow's father he'd have said "you may not be a Stark, but you are my son." But he doesn't, because he's Snow's uncle not his father. I've rewatched with people who said at that point, "huh. And he's not coming back, of course. So Lyanna is his mother."

I've been saying it since episode one, and I didn't read any books until AFTER episode 5 aired.

Yes, all non book readers need is to listen well, and pay attention, book readers if they pay attention the writers camera people give us nice Easter eggs.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding actual evidence in terms of dialogue on the show, I think that Tywin admitting that he made a sacrifice that was against his very nature for the sake of the family was an indication that the theory is true. I thought Tywin was believable and truthful when he told Tyrion that if it had been up to him, he would have had him drowned in the sea on day one. I don't think Tywin's admission has nearly as much depth (nor is it much of a sacrifice) if he's saying that the one time he took one for the team was when he allowed his second son to live. If we're to believe that Tywin made a genuine sacrifice, to me it makes sense that he's talking about the time he allowed the kid that he isn't sure is his to live. 

That's the thing, Tywin didn't make a "genuine sacrifice".  Tywin is a prideful, spiteful, horrible little man, who hates his dwarf son because of all that says about Tywin as a man, and who exhibits in private many of the same traits he castigates Tyrion for in public.  One of the things I most dislike about A+J=T theorizing in relation to Tywin is the assumption by many proponents that there needs to be a more reasonable or sympathetic explanation for Tywin's hatred of Tyrion.

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People who want to believe that Tyrion is pure Lannister disregard Tywin flat out telling him that he isn't his son. Tywin uses his final words to tell Tyrion the horrible truth IMO. IIRC (I might be completely misremembering) I don't think that show Tywin tells Jaime that he isn't his son. 

The meaning of those words is clear:  he's disowning his son because his son just fatally shot him in the stomach with a crossbow.  Note that no Unsullied viewer thought there was anything more to that statement; its context is very clear.

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The show has mentioned Joanna a few times now and I get the impression that they want audiences to remember her. 

The show has never mentioned Joanna.  Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin have all mentioned "your/our mother" a few times, but she has never been named, nor has there ever been any information about her as a person.

Edited May 4, 2016 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That's the thing, Tywin didn't make a "genuine sacrifice".  Tywin is a prideful, spiteful, horrible little man, who hates his dwarf son because of all that says about Tywin as a man, and who exhibits in private many of the same traits he castigates Tyrion for in public.  One of the things I most dislike about A+J=T theorizing in relation to Tywin is the assumption by many proponents that there needs to be a more reasonable or sympathetic explanation for Tywin's hatred of Tyrion.

The meaning of those words is clear:  he's disowning his son because his son just fatally shot him in the stomach with a crossbow.  Note that no Unsullied viewer thought there was anything more to that statement; its context is very clear.

The show has never mentioned Joanna.  Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin have all mentioned "your/our mother" a few times, but she has never been named, nor has there ever been any information about her as a person.

Joanna was indeed mentioned by name in the episode when Tyrion was telling Dany about the Lannisters that he's killed.

I disagree that Tywin becomes at all sympathetic if it turns out that he was right in his suspicions that Tyrion isn't his biological child. He's a raging asshole either way. Just because the explanation makes his behavior more understandable doesn't mean that his hatred of Tyrion is right or sympathetic. 

The meaning of the words is clearly open to interpretation. I also disagree that no Unsullied viewers have looked at the scene in another way. Fair enough though that it's basically impossible to prove who is and isn't Unsullied when it comes to the people who are just now starting to wonder if Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. 

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Fair enough though that it's basically impossible to prove who is and isn't Unsullied when it comes to the people who are just now starting to wonder if Tyrion is a bastard Targaryen. 

I haven't seen any genuinely Unsullied person wondering about Tyrion's parentage.  There wouldn't be any basis for it, as the show has never posited a connection between one's ability to interact with dragons and Targaryen lineage (indeed, Tyrion expressly disregards such a connection in this episode).

[Avaleigh]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

I haven't seen any genuinely Unsullied person wondering about Tyrion's parentage.  There wouldn't be any basis for it, as the show has never posited a connection between one's ability to interact with dragons and Targaryen lineage (indeed, Tyrion expressly disregards such a connection in this episode).

I've seen people wondering off of this episode if Tyrion could be a bastard Targaryen but obviously have no way of proving whether or not these people are genuinely Unsullied.

As for whether or not the show has given out hints---IMO they absolutely have. People (Unsullied included) made note of the fact that Tywin pointed out that he is unable to prove that Tyrion isn't his. Even before this episode the doubt about Tyrion's parentage was put out there. Tywin and Tyrion both put it out there on more than one occasion. 

If nothing else, I think we can at least agree that Tywin made comments on the show suggesting that he personally has doubts about Tyrion's paternity. Whether or not he has genuine reason to doubt that Tyrion is his is open to interpretation but he certainly has suggested that he has doubts. 

[proserpina65]

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If nothing else, I think we can at least agree that Tywin made comments on the show suggesting that he personally has doubts about Tyrion's paternity. Whether or not he has genuine reason to doubt that Tyrion is his is open to interpretation but he certainly has suggested that he has doubts. 

Nothing Tywin said on the show lead me to think he had doubts about Tyrion being his son.  His comments just made me sure that he WISHED that Tyrion was someone else's by-blow, so Tyrion's very existence wouldn't cast aspersions on Tywin's worth as a man (as he saw it).

Personally I'm hoping the whole "Tyrion is a secret Targ" thing isn't true, because that's one secret child too many imo.

[nksarmi]

6 hours ago, mac123x said:

 

I loved that scene.  Littlefinger tells the story of the tournament at Harrenhal, Sansa says "Then he kidnapped her and raped her" and Littlefinger gives her the biggest side-eye.  Aiden Gillen conveyed "That's what you think happened?  No one ever told you the real story?  Hmm" with one look.

Yes his face said, "you don't really believe that, do you? you sweet summer child - I have so much to teach you." Then it got appropriately creepy lol.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, all non book readers need is to listen well, and pay attention, book readers if they pay attention the writers camera people give us nice Easter eggs.

The show has a lot of fun with the Easter eggs: one of my favourites was the very close shot of Joffrey's cup at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding feast in Season 3.

48 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Nothing Tywin said on the show lead me to think he had doubts about Tyrion being his son.  His comments just made me sure that he WISHED that Tyrion was someone else's by-blow, so Tyrion's very existence wouldn't cast aspersions on Tywin's worth as a man (as he saw it).

In the books, Tyrion as a secret Targ would be way too much, considering you have Jon and Aegon running around.

I always thought it was strange that Tywin would talk so casually about being unable to prove that Tyrion wasn't his, since you'd think some guy who was supposedly so devoted to his dead wife wouldn't be so quick to make remarks insinuating that she had slept around. If Tywin was as besotted with Joanna as everyone suggested he had been in the books, maybe he wouldn't be so quick to call her a cheating whore? I dunno. Seems fishy to me.

[nksarmi]

I honestly can't remember if I figured out R+L=J without any nudging because my FB wall was full of bookreaders when this series began lol. However, I think Ned's "You might not have my name, but you have my blood" is all it would have taken for me to 100% KNOW Ned wasn't Jon's dad. Concluding he was Lyanna's wasn't a far jump from that point because the show barely mentions Brandon who would have been the other candidate for why Ned would be hiding his nephew as his son. And from that point, it's just obvious that Jon is the bastard Targ that Ned is hiding.

Conversely, I would have never believed Tyrion is anyone BUT Tywin's son and even after reading five books - still didn't entertain that as even a possibility until reading the theory here.

[Avaleigh]

58 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Personally I'm hoping the whole "Tyrion is a secret Targ" thing isn't true, because that's one secret child too many imo.

I guess I also like the idea of having a comparison to Jon. I'm in the camp that believes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is their trueborn son. I think it's interesting that Jon lived the life of a bastard even though he was the legitimate son of these highborn people while Tyrion is the illegitimate son who is living the life of a highborn. 

I can totally understand though why people think that Tywin's comments were an indication of what he hopes is true but that's one of the coolest things about this theory to me. There is no upside on this for Tywin. If it turns out that Tyrion isn't his then he has to accept the fact that his wife was either dishonored in the worst possible way or was cheating on him. If Tyrion is his then he's basically interpreting this as a judgment of the gods against him. 

I love the idea of this horrible man having to deal with a situation that causes him emotional heartache, humiliation, pain, etc. at every turn. It seems like such an appropriate punishment for him. 

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Yes his face said, "you don't really believe that, do you? you sweet summer child - I have so much to teach you." Then it got appropriately creepy lol.

It's true, he did have an odd expression on his face. It never occurred to me that he might be harboring his own suspicions. 

 

Now I'm really curious as to how he'll treat Jon if/when they meet after the battle of the bastards.

 

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In the books, Tyrion as a secret Targ would be way too much, considering you have Jon and Aegon running around.

Since we aren't dealing with Aegon in the show I'm pretty sure he's fake so to me he doesn't qualify as a secret Targ. I'm guessing that he's a Blackfyre.  

Edited May 4, 2016 by Avaleigh

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

As for whether or not the show has given out hints---IMO they absolutely have. People (Unsullied included) made note of the fact that Tywin pointed out that he is unable to prove that Tyrion isn't his. Even before this episode the doubt about Tyrion's parentage was put out there. Tywin and Tyrion both put it out there on more than one occasion. 

I think if show or book Tywin had any serious doubts as to Tyrion's parentage he wouldn't have survived this long. Tywin would have found a way to dispose of him.

[Umbelina]

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Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brook and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank of hair so blonde it seemed white.

The book description of Tyrion.  I've thought he was a Targ, and possibly a chimera for a very long time.  I honestly can't remember when it first occurred to me, but it was fairly early in the books, and kept being reinforced throughout.  Frankly, I was more interested in the chimera side of him, but apparently, at least so far, that is unimportant.

"Hair so blond it seemed white" was probably my first clue though.
 

[stillshimpy]

Yeah I that is what I remember as bookwalker at the time. I think a purely unsullied person could and would reasonable speculate about Jon's parentage, since it's definitely obvious that Ned didn't cheat on Catelyn

Sorry, but that's not true.  Again, keep in mind that the people doing this were not doing so maliciously.  Because it wasn't even known in the books, they were speculating, which is something important to remember.  They weren't doing anything creepy or wrong at that stage.  

However, Robert believed that Ned had cheated on Catelyn and by the way?  This is pretty freaking key: to this very day the show has never cleared up the order in which things happened when it came to that rebellion, so as far as anyone in that thread knew, he just screwed someone else.  

Plus, there was speculation that Jon was Lyanna's son, by Robert by the actually Unsullied.  No one assumed Rhaegar was some decent human being.  But in that thread, that speculation was started by an actual bookwalker.  Anyone is welcome to go back and check the TWoP archived thread, but a known bookwalker lobbed that one out first. 

Since that point it has been speculated about a lot, but initially the "maybe Jon could be...." speculation when it came to Lyanna was that he was her son by Robert.  There was also speculation that Gendry was the (nonexistent) first child of Cersei and Robert.  

Now there absolutely came a point where it was a malicious thing.  We had someone spoil the entire thing with Ned which was partially my fault because I kept arguing with that jackass, because we had been specifically told that the Men of the Wall could father no sons and blah blah blah....no one knew that Lord Commander Mormont was Jorah's dad, or that people who had fathered sons could go to the Wall , etc. etc. 

Some of the stuff that happened was completely innocent.  The first person to introduce the "Maybe Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly!" was a book reader, but it really was a case of ....that wasn't against the rules at the time they were doing that.  That was before the "no readers in here, whatsoever, don't congratulate people if they get things right...." stuff.  They were actually unspoiled, they were actually speculating about something in the books....and yeah, turned out to have been readers.   

The show didn't get around to starting to make it obvious until Littlefinger telling Sansa the story of Rhaegar and the winter roses.  

People fixated on Jon were far more likely to speculate about him.  He wasn't actually a particularly engaging character in that first season.  We also had people speculating that he and Dany should marry and that they "were like soulmates" presumably because of the Ice and Fire stuff.  But the truly Unsullied?  We didn't even known the books titles, so....yeah.  

[lmsweb]

Actually, there was a scene in Season 3 where Tywin called into question Tyrion's parentage, and indeed, almost seems to confirm he suspects Tyrion is not his son.

Tywin Lannister: You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse. Go, now. Speak no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. Go!
[Tywin returns to his seat. Tyrion is deeply hurt by his father's words, but says nothing. He stands and starts to leave]
Tywin Lannister: One more thing.
[Tyrion stops and turns back to his father]
Tywin Lannister: The next whore I catch in your bed, I'll hang.

[Umbelina]

There were a few things in the Unsullied threads on TWOP that were obviously by people trying to score points as prescient or astute that were quite obviously from people who had read the books, or if not that, boned up at Westeros.com.  I remember thinking that some were so very obvious, and it was sad.  Unsullied was always a fun thread to read, but frankly, to anyone who had read the books or spent time on one of the fan sites devoted to characters or events, those people were pathetic.  They just wanted later kudos for being so smart.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[Haleth]

4 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

I think if show or book Tywin had any serious doubts as to Tyrion's parentage he wouldn't have survived this long. Tywin would have found a way to dispose of him.

Especially since Joanna died giving birth to him. No way would Tywin raise that child that wasn't his if there was the slightest doubt in his mind. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Haleth

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, lmsweb said:

Actually, there was a scene in Season 3 where Tywin called into question Tyrion's parentage, and indeed, almost seems to confirm he suspects Tyrion is not his son.

Tywin Lannister: You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine.

He's saying there that he wishes Tyrion wasn't his son, not that he actually believes him not to be.  If he actually had that suspicion, Tyrion would have reacted to it.

[Macbeth]

As for Tyrion being a Targ.  In terms of unchaining the dragons, I think the explanation the show used was weak tea.  Missandei could  have been up with Varys yelling down to the dragons "He's with me. It's all good."  The dragons didn't know Varys, and they had been tortured being chained up for how long?  And they are on a hunger strike - not happy campers that you would ever approach on their best day.  And they didn't burn Tyrion because....?

On the one hand I think Tywin would have killed Tyrion if he had known.  On the other hand, he would have something of the Mad King that he could humiliate for years on end. Also, he kills Tyrion - many people would believe Twyin killed his own kid because of his deformities not for any questionable parentage.  And would Tryion, publicly, ever admit to his wife's infidelity or rape?

Now the book appeared to be going in  a different way with Varys going after the presumed dead prince Aegon.  He could have been the 3rd person for the dragon. The last book was hazy for me. I kept humming Willie Nelson's tune "On the Road Again."  I was like - let's wrap things up people.

But Varys is not looking for the lost prince. Since the show is winding up - that chapter is closed.  Varys is with Tyrion and he was shocked completely with what Tyrion did.  We need a 3rd person for the dragon, and with what Tyrion did this episode - he is it.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Macbeth

[SeanC]

22 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Also, he kills Tyrion - many people would believe Twyin killed his own kid because of his deformities not for any questionable parentage.

Infant mortality in this era was horrendous.  It wouldn't have been hard to make it look plausible.  Sure, some would talk, but why would he care?

[FemmyV]

saw I

6 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Since that point it has been speculated about a lot, but initially the "maybe Jon could be...." speculation when it came to Lyanna was that he was her son by Robert.  There was also speculation that Gendry was the (nonexistent) first child of Cersei and Robert.  

Now there absolutely came a point where it was a malicious thing.  We had someone spoil the entire thing with Ned which was partially my fault because I kept arguing with that jackass, because we had been specifically told that the Men of the Wall could father no sons and blah blah blah....no one knew that Lord Commander Mormont was Jorah's dad, or that people who had fathered sons could go to the Wall , etc. etc. 

Some of the stuff that happened was completely innocent.  The first person to introduce the "Maybe Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly!" was a book reader, but it really was a case of ....that wasn't against the rules at the time they were doing that.  That was before the "no readers in here, whatsoever, don't congratulate people if they get things right...." stuff.  They were actually unspoiled, they were actually speculating about something in the books....and yeah, turned out to have been readers.   

The show didn't get around to starting to make it obvious until Littlefinger telling Sansa the story of Rhaegar and the winter roses.  

People fixated on Jon were far more likely to speculate about him.  He wasn't actually a particularly engaging character in that first season.  We also had people speculating that he and Dany should marry and that they "were like soulmates" presumably because of the Ice and Fire stuff.  But the truly Unsullied?  We didn't even known the books titles, so....yeah.  

 

I was one of those who considered the idea Robert could be Jon's father, for a little while at least. The timeline was still a little grey back then, and it made sense that, if Robert had married Cersei and moved on, Jon would be a huge inconvenience to that marriage. Plus there was some resemblance w/the black hair and all .. "the seed is strong."

When Oberyn became a factor and talked about Rheagar leaving Elia to run off with Lyanna, that was the first character who suggested Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, IIRC.
 

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The show didn't get around to starting to make it obvious until Littlefinger telling Sansa the story of Rhaegar and the winter roses.  

People fixated on Jon were far more likely to speculate about him.  He wasn't actually a particularly engaging character in that first season.  We also had people speculating that he and Dany should marry and that they "were like soulmates" presumably because of the Ice and Fire stuff.  But the truly Unsullied?  We didn't even known the books titles, so....yeah.  

Oberyn actually filled in a lot of blanks in the timeline, I think. Until he came on the scene, by most counts the war happened because Aerys Targaryan was batshit crazy and taking the kingdom with him. After Oberyn, I finally understood the war broke out because of Rheagar making off with Lyanna, and the subsequent killings of Brandon & Rickard Stark.

[MarySNJ]

7 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I honestly can't remember if I figured out R+L=J without any nudging because my FB wall was full of bookreaders when this series began lol. However, I think Ned's "You might not have my name, but you have my blood" is all it would have taken for me to 100% KNOW Ned wasn't Jon's dad. Concluding he was Lyanna's wasn't a far jump from that point because the show barely mentions Brandon who would have been the other candidate for why Ned would be hiding his nephew as his son. And from that point, it's just obvious that Jon is the bastard Targ that Ned is hiding.

Conversely, I would have never believed Tyrion is anyone BUT Tywin's son and even after reading five books - still didn't entertain that as even a possibility until reading the theory here.

Yes and Ned would have no reason to deny Jon's parentage if he was Brandon's bastard. Robert wasn't in a rage to kill Brandon's offspring so Jon wouldn't have been in jeopardy. And a bastard can't inherit so he's no threat to Ned and Catelyn's trueborn children heirs after the death of Rickard and Brandon. Knowing that truth might have caused Catelyn to not treat Jon with such scorn as he wouldn't be a living reminder of her husband's assumed infidelity. Ned might have been able to send Brandon's bastard to foster with another house.

Assuming R+L=J, Ned needed to keep Jon close, probably because of the the promise he made to Lyanna and perhaps because he feared that someone would notice resemblances of Jon to his biological father. The reason for the 14 years of lies that Ned had to live with and the scorn that Jon had to live with from Catelyn was due to the fact that Jon is a son of Rhaegar, by Lyanna and he wouldn't send him away. Basically, Jon's parentage would push both of Robert's berserk buttons, which would make Jon a target and might lead Robert to view Ned as a traitor for harboring a Targ "dragonspawn".  Ned chose family love and loyalty over loyalty to his friend and King. 

In regard to A+J=T, I don't like the theory but it's plausible that there was something going on between Aerys II and Joanna prior to her marriage to Tywin, but I don't like it mainly because I think it diminishes the nature of Tyrion's relationship with Tywin. It was Tywin's sister who remarked that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, not Jaime, and it was said in the books that Tyrion is "Tywin writ small." That's the point. Tyrion was Tywin's shame. He considered Tyrion a curse, and blamed him for Joanna's death. That was enough reason for Tywin to wish Tyrion dead. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by MarySNJ

[Hecate7]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

I haven't seen any genuinely Unsullied person wondering about Tyrion's parentage.  There wouldn't be any basis for it, as the show has never posited a connection between one's ability to interact with dragons and Targaryen lineage (indeed, Tyrion expressly disregards such a connection in this episode).

How do you know who's "genuinely unsullied" and who isn't? When it comes to this issue, we're ALL unsullied. None of us knows. However, I have heard people who never came within a mile of the books speculating in this direction. That the show doesn't explicitly come right out and tell us a thing, the way it did with Lyanna, doesn't mean there's been no evidence. On the show, we're seen that Danaerys believes that "fire can't kill a dragon," that dragon eggs and dragons are something mainly for Targaryens and that Targaryens were the ones who raised and bred them, and in Tyrion's speech he alludes to "a little dragon, like me." Child Tyrion only meant that he was small, but the adults around him might have laughed at the double entendre, as Tyrion implied he was himself a dragon.

As for Tywin's last words, "You are not my son," it could go either way, but that nobody in your immediate social circle pounced on the possible hidden meaning there doesn't mean that there isn't one. ShowTyrion might or might not be half Targ, but just from what the show has shown and told us about Targaryens, there's some reason to wonder, now that he's handled the dragons so well.

[Hecate7]

10 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

I think if show or book Tywin had any serious doubts as to Tyrion's parentage he wouldn't have survived this long. Tywin would have found a way to dispose of him.

Show Tywin tried many times to dispose of Tyrion. He even tells a story of trying to drown him in the ocean, and stopping because Joanna didn't want him to kill Tyrion. He put him in charge of the castle drains. He put him in the vanguard of a war, with absolutely no fighting skills of which Tywin was aware. He sent him to be Joffrey's Hand in a castle run by Cersei, Queen Regent. Don't tell me Tywin wasn't looking for ways in which Tyrion could die. But Tywin didn't want even the Gods to suspect that he'd killed Tyrion. No hint of kinslaying could attach to him, but he kept putting his son in harm's way, to the point of sentencing him to death. If Tyrion were NOT Tywin's son, Tywin would do exactly what he did, and his dying words would have been "you are not my son." So it could go either way.

What we are not told, is what Joanna's objection was, to Tywin's drowning Tyrion. Was it simply the love of a mother for her baby? A rape victim's terror of what the king's retaliation might be if they destroyed his bastard? A smitten subject's fear of offending her lover by allowing her husband to destroy their baby?  Or the concern of a loving wife for her husband committing the sin of kinslaying? Because even if Tywin isn't Tyrion's father, he's related to him through Joanna, his cousin. We're not told whether Joanna was pious, but next to Guest Right kinslaying is the worst taboo. Far worse than incest or simple murder. At any event, it was a dying request, and just like Ned, Tywin seems to feel he has to honor it.

[Oscirus]

From a personal standpoint, my main objection to A+j= t is the fact that Jon is the main character of the story. So the revelation that he has secret parents should be his and his alone.  Tyrion has his own unique story without the convoluted addition of an unknown parent.

As for actual proof, I'm surprised nobody's used the red priestess's staredown with Tyrion for justification since that would be the strongest indicator. Tywin says the stuff he says to Tyrion because he knows it cuts Tyrion to the bone. The fact is this the show has not once talked about Aerys' lust for Joanna and his activities towards her, the show hasn't even thought about setting that up, it would be pretty weird and forced for that to come out all of a sudden.

If you watch the dragon scene Tyrion clearly used actions one uses towards a pet when you want to give them their shots. Viserion was acting up so he went to Rhaegal first. He apparently made Rhaegal laugh (wtf?), told him a story while stroking him  and then pulled the bolt freeing him, Viserion saw what was going on and acted accordingly. Nothing really magical there.

He'll be a rider because he's one of the few people that fits the criteria, he's not scared of the dragons and he's trying to help their mother.  Blood has nothing to do with it.

Quote

 He sent him to be Joffrey's Hand in a castle run by Cersei, Queen Regent

You don't give someone such a prestigious title and send them away from a war if you're trying to kill him. He definitely tried to kill him in the war but saw how smart Tyrion was so he planned accordingly hence sending Tyrion back to King's landing to watch over Cersei and Joffrey.

 

I don't see how anybody would think that Robert was Jon's father after Ned told Robert to his face that he didn't know Lyanna and Robert agreed.  I'd say the clues were there  about Jon's parents but they were easy to miss if you weren't paying attention.

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

He even tells a story of trying to drown him in the ocean, and stopping because Joanna didn't want him to kill Tyrion.

No, he says that's what he wanted to do.

Quote

He put him in charge of the castle drains.

That's not a lethal activity, it's just undignified.

[Macbeth]

Maybe the dragons didn't kill Tyrion as he was drunk - the smell of alcohol threw them off.  Then again they should have been thinking - "How nice, they marinaded this one for us."

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

in Tyrion's speech he alludes to "a little dragon, like me." Child Tyrion only meant that he was small, but the adults around him might have laughed at the double entendre, as Tyrion implied he was himself a dragon.

Just one minor point of correction... The line was NOT "a little dragon, like me."

The line was "it could be little, like me."

Tyrion's statement couldn't be taken as a double entendre to be laughed about because all Tyrion said was Little = Little.

[nksarmi]

8 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes and Ned would have no reason to deny Jon's parentage if he was Brandon's bastard. Robert wasn't in a rage to kill Brandon's offspring so Jon wouldn't have been in jeopardy. And a bastard can't inherit so he's no threat to Ned and Catelyn's trueborn children heirs after the death of Rickard and Brandon. Knowing that truth might have caused Catelyn to not treat Jon with such scorn as he wouldn't be a living reminder of her husband's assumed infidelity. Ned might have been able to send Brandon's bastard to foster with another house.

Assuming R+L=J, Ned needed to keep Jon close, probably because of the the promise he made to Lyanna and perhaps because he feared that someone would notice resemblances of Jon to his biological father. The reason for the 14 years of lies that Ned had to live with and the scorn that Jon had to live with from Catelyn was due to the fact that Jon is a son of Rhaegar, by Lyanna and he wouldn't send him away. Basically, Jon's parentage would push both of Robert's berserk buttons, which would make Jon a target and might lead Robert to view Ned as a traitor for harboring a Targ "dragonspawn".  Ned chose family love and loyalty over loyalty to his friend and King. 

In regard to A+J=T, I don't like the theory but it's plausible that there was something going on between Aerys II and Joanna prior to her marriage to Tywin, but I don't like it mainly because I think it diminishes the nature of Tyrion's relationship with Tywin. It was Tywin's sister who remarked that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, not Jaime, and it was said in the books that Tyrion is "Tywin writ small." That's the point. Tyrion was Tywin's shame. He considered Tyrion a curse, and blamed him for Joanna's death. That was enough reason for Tywin to wish Tyrion dead. 

The only speculation I've seen regarding why Ned would have lied if he was hiding Brandon's bastard would be to spare Catelyn's feelings (since he was her betrothed). To me, it's a stretch to think he would endure 15 years of his wife being bitter toward him and hating Jon to protect "Brandon's memory." I can believe he would do it to protect Lyanna's son's life if he feared someone would kill Jon for being a Targ bastard.

[nksarmi]

I think Tyrion could very well ride a dragon AND NOT be a Targ. It's not that I don't buy into this whole Targ blood is required thing (but I do think the books have established Targ blood is definitely not enough) but because the books and the show have told us Bran may very well be the most powerful skin changer anyone has ever heard of. Do we really think he can't or won't skin change with a dragon at some point?

Between "you won't walk again, but you will fly" and the early exchange between Tyrion and Bran when Tyrion provided the boy the special saddle so he could still ride a horse - I think we will see that pay off in the end. Bran will take control of one of the dragons and will either rescue Tyrion or will simply seek him out because Tyrion will be needed somehow to save the day. This might be Jon and Dany's story but I am 99% confident that the cripple boy and dwarf are going to work together at some point in some very important way that will involve a dragon.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes and Ned would have no reason to deny Jon's parentage if he was Brandon's bastard. Robert wasn't in a rage to kill Brandon's offspring so Jon wouldn't have been in jeopardy. And a bastard can't inherit so he's no threat to Ned and Catelyn's trueborn children heirs after the death of Rickard and Brandon. Knowing that truth might have caused Catelyn to not treat Jon with such scorn as he wouldn't be a living reminder of her husband's assumed infidelity. Ned might have been able to send Brandon's bastard to foster with another house.

Assuming R+L=J, Ned needed to keep Jon close, probably because of the the promise he made to Lyanna and perhaps because he feared that someone would notice resemblances of Jon to his biological father. The reason for the 14 years of lies that Ned had to live with and the scorn that Jon had to live with from Catelyn was due to the fact that Jon is a son of Rhaegar, by Lyanna and he wouldn't send him away. Basically, Jon's parentage would push both of Robert's berserk buttons, which would make Jon a target and might lead Robert to view Ned as a traitor for harboring a Targ "dragonspawn".  Ned chose family love and loyalty over loyalty to his friend and King. 

In regard to A+J=T, I don't like the theory but it's plausible that there was something going on between Aerys II and Joanna prior to her marriage to Tywin, but I don't like it mainly because I think it diminishes the nature of Tyrion's relationship with Tywin. It was Tywin's sister who remarked that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, not Jaime, and it was said in the books that Tyrion is "Tywin writ small." That's the point. Tyrion was Tywin's shame. He considered Tyrion a curse, and blamed him for Joanna's death. That was enough reason for Tywin to wish Tyrion dead. 

I always wonder if Benjen had been with Ned during the war if they would have passed Jon off as being Benjen's kid.  I always thought that would have worked out perfectly for House Stark.  There would be no cloud hanging over Ned and Catelyn over the Jon Snow matter and perhaps Benjen would have a "son" of his own and perhaps would have stayed to become Ned's bannerman.  Catelyn likely still would have had some mistrust of about Jon...she doesn't seem very trusting of bastards in general based on certain things in the books.  But she certainly would have treated Jon better.  And Jon would still be protected by Ned and his House.

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

No, he says that's what he wanted to do.

That's not a lethal activity, it's just undignified.

Because it can involve climbing and heights, and confined and rat-infested spaces, in addition to exposure to diseases, it most certainly can be a lethal activity. Of course Tyrion probably had people who did the actual dirty work, but the intent is clear. Tywin always wanted Tyrion dead, he just didn't want the taint of being a kinslayer.

[lmsweb]

I don't think they've ever said, in the books or the show, exactly why Benjen joined the NW. Wonder if that will ever be revealed. 

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Hecate7 said:

Because it can involve climbing and heights, and confined and rat-infested spaces, in addition to exposure to diseases, it most certainly can be a lethal activity. Of course Tyrion probably had people who did the actual dirty work, but the intent is clear. Tywin always wanted Tyrion dead, he just didn't want the taint of being a kinslayer.

The intent is clear:  to demean him.  Nobody, including Tyrion, regarded this is as an attempt to kill him.

[nksarmi]

1 minute ago, lmsweb said:

I don't think they've ever said, in the books or the show, exactly why Benjen joined the NW. Wonder if that will ever be revealed. 

The closest we can come is that I think somewhere - either in the books or the worldbook - it was established the usually the "second son" of House Stark joins the NW. Ergo, we can assume that may have been the life Ned thought he would have himself. But when Brandon died, everything shifted.

[Hecate7]

44 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I think Tyrion could very well ride a dragon AND NOT be a Targ. It's not that I don't buy into this whole Targ blood is required thing (but I do think the books have established Targ blood is definitely not enough) but because the books and the show have told us Bran may very well be the most powerful skin changer anyone has ever heard of. Do we really think he can't or won't skin change with a dragon at some point?

Between "you won't walk again, but you will fly" and the early exchange between Tyrion and Bran when Tyrion provided the boy the special saddle so he could still ride a horse - I think we will see that pay off in the end. Bran will take control of one of the dragons and will either rescue Tyrion or will simply seek him out because Tyrion will be needed somehow to save the day. This might be Jon and Dany's story but I am 99% confident that the cripple boy and dwarf are going to work together at some point in some very important way that will involve a dragon.

 

Warging a dragon isn't riding it. Riding absolutely involves the dragon's consent, whereas warging doesn't require it at all. Blood is not enough, but I think it may be a prerequisite.

Bran might not be on the same side as Tyrion by then. He may not want Danaerys.

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

 You don't give someone such a prestigious title and send them away from a war if you're trying to kill him. He definitely tried to kill him in the war but saw how smart Tyrion was so he planned accordingly hence sending Tyrion back to King's landing to watch over Cersei and Joffrey.

Of course you do. It's exactly how the rich and powerful kill each other. He thought he could get a little use out of Tyrion, but Tyrion was always just a place marker for Tywin, and if Joffrey or Cersei poisoned him or had him murdered, as someone DID DO during Blackwater, it would have suited Tywin just fine. Sending Tyrion was not about honoring him, it was about putting him at the mercy of Cersei and Joffrey. Tywin might have been in denial about the twincest but he wasn't an idiot, and he knew Cersei and Joffrey would want to kill Tyrion, and might succeed. In fact someone very nearly did succeed in killing him, and there may have been other attempts which failed.

History is full of examples of queens and kings sending people on "prestigious" assignments, like making them the general of an army or putting them in charge of a province, in order to get them killed. The person can't refuse the assignment so off they go to Ireland or wherever, and either they die, or they infuriatingly survive and their ruler has to come up with a more direct means of offing them. Happens all the time.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Of course you do. It's exactly how the rich and powerful kill each other. He thought he could get a little use out of Tyrion, but Tyrion was always just a place marker for Tywin, and if Joffrey or Cersei poisoned him or had him murdered, as someone DID DO during Blackwater, it would have suited Tywin just fine. Sending Tyrion was not about honoring him, it was about putting him at the mercy of Cersei and Joffrey.

It was not about honouring him, it was about making use of him.  Tywin really knew nothing about Joffrey at that point (he becomes progressively disillusioned with him once he gets to KL), and has a very different view of Cersei than she really is.  He sent Tyrion to KL to take charge of the city and root out the problems that were manifestly there, not to get him killed.  If he had died at Blackwater, I doubt he'd have been troubled by it, but to say that Tywin gave him that job in the hope that he'd die doing it is nonsensical.

Edited May 5, 2016 by SeanC

[mac123x]

I’m not a fan of the A=J=T theory. One of the pieces of evidence people always cite for it is Tywin’s “you’re no son of mine!” statement.  Taking that as literal ignores another highly emotional scene between Tywin and Tyrion, back in GoT / S1:  At the end of the war council when Tywin sends Tyrion to Kings Landing to be acting hand, Tyrion was flabbergasted.  “Why me?  Why not my uncle, or anyone else?”  “Because you’re my son.”

 

I guess you could say that Tywin was manipulating Tyrion by appealing to a father/son relationship that he knew was false, but I don’t buy it. 

[GrailKing]

42 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Because it can involve climbing and heights, and confined and rat-infested spaces, in addition to exposure to diseases, it most certainly can be a lethal activity. Of course Tyrion probably had people who did the actual dirty work, but the intent is clear. Tywin always wanted Tyrion dead, he just didn't want the taint of being a kinslayer.

 

40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The intent is clear:  to demean him.  Nobody, including Tyrion, regarded this is as an attempt to kill him.

For sake of argument, it's clear only Jamie,Mycella and Tommen liked Tyrion (not counting Joanna she died) along with Podrick so instead of saying the intent is to kill him lets say the HOPE was he die, war, disease it didn't matter what ever dire situation in life he was put in it was hoped the Gods take him.

Neither Cersei or Tywin wants him to get Casterly Rock ever!

Edited May 5, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[nksarmi]

25 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

 

Warging a dragon isn't riding it. Riding absolutely involves the dragon's consent, whereas warging doesn't require it at all. Blood is not enough, but I think it may be a prerequisite.

Bran might not be on the same side as Tyrion by then. He may not want Danaerys.

Yes what I mean was that Tyrion would ride a dragon WHILE Bran was skin changing into it. I don't think Tyrion riding will be a permanent thing - just that he will have the thrill of doing that at some point - even if it's just Bran saving his life. I just believe there will be a payoff there for Tyrion's earliest kindness to Bran. It's very much the kind of "good seeds" that often come up later to save your life when the cripple boy ends of being one powerful magic wielding badass.

I don't know what to think of the absence of Aegon on the show. I almost believe "the dragon must have three heads" is going to end up being a figurative thing - where three heads of armies join together to defeat the Others. In the books, I think the heads of armies are going to be Jon, Dany, and Aegon. How they unite and what happens when they win the day - I have no clue. But I do believe that Westerous will unite under the three of them just long enough to save the realm.

In the show, I think they are just going to wrap any significant portions of Aegon's story into Dany's - that's why I think Jorah has greyscale (or whatever that disease is). It's not that Aegon isn't important to Martin's story - just that they already have a character who they can use for both purposes. Since it pretty much feels like Tyrion is currently in Barrister's story - I don't even know if we can judge how much of his book six story we are seeing vs  Selmy's book six story.

So either the show won't have a third army join Jon and Dany or they will do something crazy like have Elaira head it.

[GrailKing]

ON an off topic note; I put a link in the video thread related to GOT by the Getty Art Museum they tie in GOT to historical art.

My son who graduated from Vassar as a art history major sent it.

Llast night was a live feed with Michelle Clapton, who was asked to come back for season seven by the way.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

I was one of those who considered the idea Robert could be Jon's father, for a little while at least. The timeline was still a little grey back then, and it made sense that, if Robert had married Cersei and moved on, Jon would be a huge inconvenience to that marriage. Plus there was some resemblance w/the black hair and all .. "the seed is strong."

I'm another one-- who still suspects that Jon might be Robert's and Lyanna's. I just got fixated on the whole black hair thing, and assumed that no Targ would have a brunette child. That suspicion resurfaced when we saw the flashbacks that Bran went to. Posters commented on Lyanna having light brown hair, and I thought to myself hmmm--  how could she have had a dark haired kid with Raegar?

[benteen]

43 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

The closest we can come is that I think somewhere - either in the books or the worldbook - it was established the usually the "second son" of House Stark joins the NW. Ergo, we can assume that may have been the life Ned thought he would have himself. But when Brandon died, everything shifted.

I recall it being mentioned in Jojen's story about the Tournament at Harrenhal, where all the Starks were present, that the youngest Stark (Benjen) showed interest when a representative of the Night's Watch spoke.  I guess his heart was always set on the Watch and I wouldn't be surprised if after the war, Winterfell had too many memories for him.  Though after Brandon's death and Ned's ascension, he would have been in a much better place to become a bannerman or perhaps have gotten a good marriage out of it.  He could have provided an heir too that would have helped during the war.

Anyway, sorry to get sidetracked on this.

I would say that the reaction of the dragons to Tyrion does strengthen the A+J=T argument.  Though I would have thought if that is the case, we would have seen some earlier hints of this.  Then again, GRRM doesn't exactly start dropping any blatant hints until ADWD.

[nksarmi]

5 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

I'm another one-- who still suspects that Jon might be Robert's and Lyanna's. I just got fixated on the whole black hair thing, and assumed that no Targ would have a brunette child. That suspicion resurfaced when we saw the flashbacks that Bran went to. Posters commented on Lyanna having light brown hair, and I thought to myself hmmm--  how could she have had a dark haired kid with Raegar?

Martin uses hair color a lot in the books to hint at things but I don't think it matters at all on the show - especially since many characters don't have the hair color they are supposed to have.

Per the books, Jon and Ayra are supposed to be the two children who have the "Stark look" with Ayra looking like her aunt and Jon - most likely - looking like his mother.

Edited May 5, 2016 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Actually, there was a scene in Season 3 where Tywin called into question Tyrion's parentage, and indeed, almost seems to confirm he suspects Tyrion is not his son.

 

Absolutely and we did discuss that, but Aerys as a possible father was not on the table, because no one knew that he'd had a thing for Johanna.  In fact, we knew next to nothing about Johanna (still don't for that group).  So there was some "Wait, is there any possibility that Tyrion really isn't Tywin's son?" because Tywin did say he couldn't "prove" that Tyrion wasn't his son.  

But I don't think anyone jumped to the Targ thing from there.  Plus it was mainly concluded that Tywin was just being snot mean, because he's Tywin.  It's kind of his gig. 

As for the whole "You may not have my name, but you have my blood" again, not really a definitive "no way is he Ned's son" deal.  Now within something like two chapters of starting the book, I was astounded by how overt the books really are about that.  But when it came to Robert, he was presented as Ned's dearest friend and someone who loved Lyanna dearly.  In the first season Ned treats it as shocking that Robert is okay with having Dany killed.  Also?  Dany and Viserys were alive and well and not seemingly past the reach of Westeros.  So it wasn't even obvious that "Oh but clearly Robert would have had that child killed!"  We didn't know anything about "a bed of blood" or how long Rhaegar even had Lyanna (again, a key piece of information) .  

Catelyn hating Jon that much actually made more sense if he was Ned's son, by the way, since it's a spectacularly bad plan to force your wife to raise your illegitimate son. As it turns out in the books, that's genuinely why she hates Jon anyway.  As for not being willing to take 15 years of his wife's scorn to protect Brandon's memory in Catelyn's eyes, Ned willingly did that too.  Since the books very heavily hints that Ashara Dayne and Brandon got it on.  The timing of her illegitimate child suggests that Brandon like stopped by on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat :-/  Book Brandon being such a booger came as a complete shock to me, because they series has Littlefinger refer to him square-jawed and honorable.  

Reading the books did make it obvious that Jon is not Ned's son, very quickly indeed.  The people who introduced the speculation were not actually doing something with vicious intent or at least they might not have had ill intent, as it turns out.   They were speculating about something that hadn't even been resolved in the books and was heavily hinted at from the first book.  

Reading the books at least made me understand that not every instance of "Oh well that person got busted as a Bookwalker!" or "There's a bookwalker" early on was just someone who....you know....needed a much better hobby, essentially.  Some were people speculating things that were long held fan theories as it turned out. 

Also, the series never really made it clear that Dany being immune to fire was unusual.  We were told that Viserys wasn't a "dragon" and that "fire cannot harm a dragon" and so after Jon got burned by that lamp, pretty much everyone took the "secret Targ" off the table, because we -- thanks to the story -- thought being a Targ of any merit meant being fireproof.   Same deal with Aerys "burn them all" we concluded that he couldn't be burned.   

It's clear the series is gearing up to a reveal about Ned's past  But again, the entire "Ned would never cheat on Catelyn!" was not obvious because it was presented to us that he had.  Then we learned that she'd actually been betrothed to his brother and the series led us to believe via Littelfinger, that Catelyn was in love with Brandon.   

That group didn't even watch previews, we never even looked at the HBO guides, but those weren't always the rules and some things were pretty clearly introduced by people viewing exterior sources.  

Edited May 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Tikichick]

I don't believe Joanna ever attempted to dissuade Tywin from drowning Tyrion, she died giving birth to him.

I can't get past the irony that we may finally be getting the answer to who is Jon Snow at precisely the same time those around him might want to be wondering, who is Jon Snow NOW?  I'm wondering if he will be behaving as if Lady Stoneheart is his mother in the days going forward, no matter if his true parentage is finally revealed to the audience at long last.

[stillshimpy]

I do think they did a really good job of foreshadowing how the truth about Jon might come to light.  For a while we thought, "Oh, Benjen will know if there's something to know!"  Then Benjen disappeared entirely from view and only got mentioned again in season five as a trick to the audience.  But another thing in the "who are Jon's parents really?" Olympics was for kind of a long time, anyone who might know was dead.  

When Jojen Reed first showed up, we were pretty convinced he was evil, by the way, but that's when the concept of it being revealed in the past was first introduced.   The first we heard about Rhaegar being a good and possibly decent man (well, all things being relative) was through Barristan and again, since we thought Rhaegar was a Dragon (thanks to Dany's "fire cannot harm a dragon"  "Rhaegar was the last dragon")  ....the "didn't get burned by the fiery lamp thing seemed really important and cast still more doubt.  

I'm actually a little bummed, or maybe relieved with the TOJ stuff being hinted at and Bran's Past-o-vision seeing his father as a child, that it seems unlikely we'll actually get a gander at Rhaegar.  

[Eyes High]

According to IMDB, Aeron Greyjoy was indeed the (delightfully bitchy) priest who informed Yara about the kingsmoot. He was played by Michael Feast, a "Hey! It's That Guy!" if ever I saw one. 

I hate the Ironborn--I love that a recent Vulture.com article explaining kingsmoots started off with "The Ironborn are assholes," because YES--but I'm really looking forward to the Greyjoy plot this year, and I'm rooting for Yara even though I know her bid for the Salt (?) Throne is doomed. Take what's yours, baby girl!

Edited May 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

Yes what I mean was that Tyrion would ride a dragon WHILE Bran was skin changing into it. I don't think Tyrion riding will be a permanent thing - just that he will have the thrill of doing that at some point - even if it's just Bran saving his life. I just believe there will be a payoff there for Tyrion's earliest kindness to Bran. It's very much the kind of "good seeds" that often come up later to save your life when the cripple boy ends of being one powerful magic wielding badass.

 

So far, this story doesn't reward good deeds. In fact, no good deed goes unpunished. Look at what sparing Theon Greyjoy did for the Starks. Or Jon's kindness to Ollie, or Danaerys' attempt to be kind to Mirri Muz Dur. Or Ned's attempt at mercy for Cersei and the kids. Just because we like Bran, doesn't mean he'll save Tyrion's life. He may in fact be the death of Tyrion. Tyrion probably won't require anyone to warg any dragon he's riding--in fact the only reason to warg a dragon someone else is already riding is to get it to do something they do NOT want it to do.