S05.E20: Firebird

[KingOfHearts]

21 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

It would be so, so awesome if Pan tricked Rumple so it was somehow a double game of Follow the Lady and the Lady is Belle. 

Ooo! The Belle that got sent into the Box was really an illusion! It wouldn't be the first time Pan made a fake Belle. The real one is tied up wherever Pan went to for 7 episodes. (Underscreenville. It's like Offscreenville, but where the citizens of Underbrooke hang out and have character moments. The Blind Witch and Cruella are going shopping there right now.)

The Cleo flashbacks were a very good idea, but fail in the execution and details. More time was needed to be spent to develop the Emma/Cleo dynamic before the abrupt death. Speaking of which, I was pretty sure Cleo was going to die from spoilers. So through the episode, I kept thinking maybe she had a terminal condition and was going to use Emma's bounty for surgery or something. Really anything would have been more plausible then a glass shard. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, Bishop said:

I guess I just don't understand how a TLK is more epic than an ENTIRE season devoted to their love for each other which has been shown with both of them risking and sacrificing for the other over the course of an entire season.  That's epic to me, and I don't see how a TLK trumps all of that.  At this point, it's too easy to use.  I'll take an entire season over just one kiss.

After seeing the Zelena/Hades TLK and how meaningless that thing is about to become because I think we all know he is playing her like a fiddle, the TLK has become very meh.

Season 1 with Snowing and Henry, and even Rumbelle, I thought there was something magical about it. Aurora/Philip was expected because of Disney. Regina/Henry, I always felt it was a TLK for the sake of giving them one. And Zelena and Hades killed the thing for me.

I liked Emma's act of true love when she accepted herself, and the act of true love between Killian and Liam this season. I'd rather have a Captain Swan act of true love that will burst in rainbow and light magic, than have a TLK ever.

Quote

They showed part of the slavic tale about the Firebird in the storybook pages in 5.15. Maybe the title is because the Nevengers left Underbrooke and Henry completed Operation Firebird? But they didn't manage to rescue Hook. So... I donno...

That entire operation was a failure, which I'm actually not entirely annoyed with because Hades is a God, and you can't just march into the Underworld and think you can just take it on and win. That's arrogant.

What annoys me is how long they spun their wheels. And they went in for Hook, and it became about rescuing everyone which again, arrogant.

Edited May 3, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Cleo flashbacks were a very good idea, but fail in the execution and details. More time was needed to be spent to develop the Emma/Cleo dynamic before the abrupt death. Speaking of which, I was pretty sure Cleo was going to die from spoilers. So through the episode, I kept thinking maybe she had a terminal condition and was going to use Emma's bounty for surgery or something. Really anything would have been more plausible then a glass shard. 

I didn't know Cleo was going to die from previews (hadn't really paid attention to them for this ep.), but I really wish she hadn't died.  I would have liked to see her be more of a mentor to Emma.  Sure, she befriended Emma in the flashbacks, but I think it would have been nice to see them both escape (sans the glass shard in the stomach), Cleo take Emma into custody, and then - unlike Neal - be waiting for her when she got out and take her under her wing and teach her the business, etc.  They still could have done the bit with Emma visiting Cleo's daughter with an explanation that Cleo got killed later rounding up another perp.

[Mari]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Cleo flashbacks were a very good idea, but fail in the execution and details. More time was needed to be spent to develop the Emma/Cleo dynamic before the abrupt death. Speaking of which, I was pretty sure Cleo was going to die from spoilers. So through the episode, I kept thinking maybe she had a terminal condition and was going to use Emma's bounty for surgery or something. Really anything would have been more plausible then a glass shard. 

Ehhh . . . Yeah, more time would have been good, and it would've been nice if Cleo hadn't died--especially in that implausible way--but the relationship got more meaningful interaction than Dorothy and Red did, and they managed to fall in True Love, not just have a transitional catalyst impact.  For TS,TW, the Cleo and Emma mentorship was practically an epic.  (As long as you ignore the 26, and substitute 17-19.)

[Camera One]

Killing off Cleo was an easy way to get emotions going for the viewers, and of course, it sets up the scene for Emma visiting Cleo's daughter.  During the episode, I thought Emma might steal her identity or something.  Does Cleo usually stay overnight with her captives.  How many times have they gotten out of handcuffs?  The setup was a tad weak.  

The worst aspect was the timeline, setting this 2 years before the pilot.  Starting flashbacks with Emma getting out of prison and seeing her unsuccessful finding information about her parents prior to the events of this episode would have been ideal, but they wanted to do the re-play of the pilot with the locked wheels.  They also needed to tie Emma's motivation to the pain of having to give Henry up, which would have been more immediate if this occurred right after her release from prison.  I appreciate the attempt, but the depth just wasn't there.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

Was I the only one wondering why Cleo needed to take a shower? If that was my job, I'd just say hell to the shower and keep my eyes glued on my target the entire time.

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

Was I the only one wondering why Cleo needed to take a shower? If that was my job, I'd just say hell to the shower and keep my eyes glued on my target the entire time.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, that was the most normal thing in the world, you know.

I mean I'm still wondering why they didn't let Hook have a shower after he was tortured and bloodied. I get that Emma healed him, and scrubbed him that way, but still.

[Curio]

16 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, that was the most normal thing in the world, you know.

I think it seemed really out of place because the show rarely ever shows those normal human actions anymore, so it's a shock to see someone actually taking a shower or doing the dishes or brushing their teeth.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I mean I'm still wondering why they didn't let Hook have a shower after he was tortured and bloodied. I get that Emma healed him, and scrubbed him that way, but still.

I think you just broke my brain.  Thanks for the new headcannon about the time Emma and Hook spent together in the Underworld...

[Adusk81]

Maybe it's because this show has been on for a few years now or maybe it's because it is so busy but how was it again that Emma gave up Henry? This episode really solidified how important it was for Emma to know where she came from and even went as far as to show she thought everyone deserves that by tracking down the girl and telling her about her mom. So then a couple years later she had a kid and gives him up? Is that really what happened or am I forgetting something? Because if it is then that's a pretty big hole in Emma's character plot line and development. You would think she would do her best to make sure her own child never has to go through that. 

On another note, clearly tlk was real between Hades and Zelena which means Hades really does love her. BUT, I really hope it's an obsessive, vengeful love. Like you delayed my quest for revenge and denied my feelings. I love you but you will suffer sort of thing. Then of course Regina will rescue zelena and Hades will die. This means there will be a new lord of the underworld. Hook. And he will free everyone in the river of lost souls. Or some shit.

[Souris]

Emma had Henry in jail when she was 17, long before the flashbacks in this ep. The flashbacks were set two years before the pilot, so eight years or so after she had Henry.

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, Adusk81 said:

On another note, clearly tlk was real between Hades and Zelena which means Hades really does love her. BUT, I really hope it's an obsessive, vengeful love. Like you delayed my quest for revenge and denied my feelings. I love you but you will suffer sort of thing. Then of course Regina will rescue zelena and Hades will die. This means there will be a new lord of the underworld. Hook. And he will free everyone in the river of lost souls. Or some shit.

The frustration in this comment is directed more at the writers than at you but..

... how can obsessive, vengeful "you will suffer" be true love? It can't. There's nothing true about it. It's just standard misogynistic "I own you" crap. Hades has been possessive and paternalistic since he met Zelena (which, oddly, is the one consistent thing about his characterisation). But that's precisely what makes it NOT true love.

I do like the idea of Hook being the Lord of the Underworld and freeing the River of Lost Souls. And then Emma's TLK will start his heart beating again and he'll be a God and he'll return to the mortal realm and... wait... that's not right.

[Adusk81]

Really?? If that's true then she should have been looking for him, not trying to figure out who her parents were. Whatever like this show ever makes sense anyway.

[YaddaYadda]

maybe this is what felt off for me with the flashbacks, and that's the fact that they made this about Emma looking for her parents.

The timeline was extremely wonky, and in the kind of episode where Emma was talking about donning an armour so that she wouldn't get hurt by the people she loves anymore, I thought the flashbacks would have been more fitting if she had been trying to track Neal instead of her parents. And if that's what had made her decide to close off, while in the present, she's completely open and vulnerable with Killian. I don't see how Firebird even parallels Tallahassee, because it looked like it might be with the promo, but in the end, it really didn't.

This stuff has already been discussed in the Emma thread, but Emma at the age of 26, despite her horrible experiences and life was nowhere near close to the woman we met in the pilot, and got to know in season 1. And I can't believe that spending 48 hours in the company of someone who told her to raise her walls is ultimately what did the trick. It wasn't Neal's betrayal and abandonment or giving up her child, it was a this woman instead.

It doesn't really compute for me. 

[Helena Dax]

I just realized CS is the only reason I'm still watching this show. If Hook leaves, I leave. And at the same time, when they were saying good-bye, I only felt some kind of nihilistic disappointment. I so blame Sleepy Hollow... I mean, I avoid spoilers so I thought Hook was done for good and I felt like flashback Emma: I'm wearing my armour, you're not going to break my heart again.

And God, no more Pandora's box, please.

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Helena Dax said:

I just realized CS is the only reason I'm still watching this show. If Hook leaves, I leave.

Welcome to the club, @Helena Dax! :)

[kili]

Did they ever say what kind of fruit Ambrosia is? Could we tell from the one that turned to dust?

I ask because there is a type of apple that grows in BC (where the show is filmed) that is called Ambrosia. Apples and apple  trees are fairly important to the world of Once. Emma cutting off a large branch of Regina's apple tree was one of her defining moments. She even threatened to cut the entire tree down. The town crest of Storybrooke features an apple tree. And of course, Regina has frequently shown her love of apple trees.

One of Hercules 12 tasks? To steal a golden apple from the Garden of Hesperides. The orchard there belonged to Hera - Zeus's wife. The apples gave one immortality. The Tree of Life grows in the center of the garden - just like the one in the episode.

There is also a Russian myth about a Firebird stealing Golden Apples. One of the songs from Stravinsky's "The Firebird" is "Jeu des princesses avec les pommes d'or" (basically, the princesses play with the golden apples). "Firebird" is of course the title of this episode.

The key art for 5B? Killian with a flaming apple (it's always an apple, so that's not as significant).

I just think it would be interesting if the Ambrosia fruit was meant to be an apple.

[AudienceofOne]

27 minutes ago, Curio said:

Welcome to the club, @Helena Dax! :)

Membership is growing

[Camera One]

Apparenty, ambrosia is a general word for the food of the gods.

http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Elements/Ambrosia/ambrosia.html

[Randomosity]

52 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Apparenty, ambrosia is a general word for the food of the gods.

http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Elements/Ambrosia/ambrosia.html

 

All I can think about when I hear that word is the near-vomit-inducing orange/coconut/marshmallow fruit salad goo that belongs in the 1950's :\  Probably for the best that Killian didn't get to eat some :D (Also, this new mobile version of the website needs to die a million deaths. Crash. Every. Single. Post.)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, kili said:

I just think it would be interesting if the Ambrosia fruit was meant to be an apple.

Cool idea.  But I don't think the writers are intelligent enough to tie it all together like that.  The ambrosia thing will just fade away like so many other plot points.

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

maybe this is what felt off for me with the flashbacks, and that's the fact that they made this about Emma looking for her parents.

The timeline was extremely wonky, and in the kind of episode where Emma was talking about donning an armour so that she wouldn't get hurt by the people she loves anymore, I thought the flashbacks would have been more fitting if she had been trying to track Neal instead of her parents. And if that's what had made her decide to close off, while in the present, she's completely open and vulnerable with Killian. I don't see how Firebird even parallels Tallahassee, because it looked like it might be with the promo, but in the end, it really didn't.

This stuff has already been discussed in the Emma thread, but Emma at the age of 26, despite her horrible experiences and life was nowhere near close to the woman we met in the pilot, and got to know in season 1. And I can't believe that spending 48 hours in the company of someone who told her to raise her walls is ultimately what did the trick. It wasn't Neal's betrayal and abandonment or giving up her child, it was a this woman instead.

It doesn't really compute for me. 

It was because of Henry.  Emma should have been in a different headspace because she'd given up Henry years earlier at this point.

It made no sense that Emma was coming off as just an abandoned child searching for her parents.  There should have been some underlying yearning that her own past would convince her that she made the right decision for Henry. 

She should have talked with the bounty hunter as both an abandoned child and a woman that gave up a child.  Same with the daughter.  But every interaction was about the Charmings.

[Camera One]

And I can't believe that spending 48 hours in the company of someone who told her to raise her walls is ultimately what did the trick.

That's it.  It wasn't a horrible episode, but it was just so ridiculously simplistic.  Emma pretty much took on every personality trait of this Cleo person.  I'm surprised Cleo wasn't given the name Dilemma Swan instead.

[Rumsy4]

Emma's flashback should have been set soon after she left prison. That's how JMo acted it. And her issues should have been about Neal's abandonment of her and putting Henry up for adoption. We know she went to Florida and stayed there for two years after she got out of prison, clinging on to a hope Bagel would find her. Her putting on "armor" against romantic love and heartbreak would have fit with the theme of Hook helping to take down her armor with him. But that would have interfered with the St. Neal narrative the writers have been peddling ever since he died. So, we got this instead. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

That tends to be a problem with the flashbacks in general. They're too simplistic. People have one experience, or meet one person, spend two days with them, and it has a huge, life changing impact on their personalities. Granted, this can happen in real life, but, for the most part, people are formed by their whole life experiences, and their relationships with other people who have been in their lives and made an impact. Cleo was a good idea, but they should have bult up the relationship more, beyond just knowing each other for a few days. 

Quote

One of Hercules 12 tasks? To steal a golden apple from the Garden of Hesperides. The orchard there belonged to Hera - Zeus's wife. The apples gave one immortality. The Tree of Life grows in the center of the garden - just like the one in the episode.

There is also a Russian myth about a Firebird stealing Golden Apples. One of the songs from Stravinsky's "The Firebird" is "Jeu des princesses avec les pommes d'or" (basically, the princesses play with the golden apples). "Firebird" is of course the title of this episode.

That is such an awesome idea, and it kills me that the writers certainly did not put half as much thought into any of this as you have right there. I swear, these writers. They have literally thousands of years of stories, history, folk tales, and mythology, spanning continents and cultures and countries, and there are so many possibilities... and they just give us the cliffnotes, or do not even bother with that really. Their references to Greek mythology have been pretty disappointing (I know they are basically adapting the Disney movie, but even that had more shout outs to actual mythology than this!). They stop by the land of Oz, without really getting to know it or its characters, throw out references to the Holy Grail (judeo-christian mythology) or the Firebird (slavic mythology), and other little things like that, but without taking advantage of of how interesting those could actually be to use in the show, instead of just being background noise or a shout out. It just makes me sad. I guess I have always wanted this show to be something that it is just not.  

[Curio]

16 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

She should have talked with the bounty hunter as both an abandoned child and a woman that gave up a child.  Same with the daughter.  But every interaction was about the Charmings.

I disagree that it was only focused on the Charmings, I think Emma was definitely processing Henry in her mind but it was a lot more subtle. Emma reacting to the photo of the young daughter (who was probably close to the real age Henry would have been at that time) was the visual cue that she was thinking about the child she gave up. It just wasn't an anvil dropped on our head in dialogue, which is rather unusual for this not-very-subtle show.

[ParadoxLost]

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I didn't see anything subtle.  Actually Emma came off as younger than when she went to jail to me.  The whole thing was wonky and made no sense when thinking too hard about it.

[InsertWordHere]

5 hours ago, Adusk81 said:

Really?? If that's true then she should have been looking for him, not trying to figure out who her parents were. Whatever like this show ever makes sense anyway.

I don't think Emma would have ever looked for Henry. It was a closed adoption and Emma meant to keep it that way until Henry came and found her.

I am still having trouble believing that this was only two years before the Pilot. It means Season 1 Emma with her walls and armor and her skill at finding people had only been like that for two years and that just doesn't seem to line up with my view of Emma. 

In some ways, I think it was done to soften the effects of the decisions Neal and August made behind her back, because this Emma did not seem to have changed that much from Tallahassee Emma. In other ways, I actually think it makes them look worse, because it shows that their interference did not put Emma on the right track. Nothing would have changed in Emma's life if she didn't have to go prison and have the man who impregnated her leave without a word, except that she might have been able to keep her child, something that might have kept her from a life of thievery. 

[jhlipton]

On 5/3/2016 at 5:24 PM, Mathius said:

The TL blast only happens when a curse is being broken, which was not the case here.

I think it's more that TLK happens when the plot requires, and TS,TW fumble about for a reason.

 

On 5/3/2016 at 6:27 PM, kili said:

Did I just watch one Stiltskin kill another Stiltskin with a wineskin?

This is so awesome!

 

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

 I was pretty sure Cleo was going to die from spoilers.

I was sure Cleo was going to die because there's no stupid trope too stupid for TS, TW.  Decent writers could have done some very different and unexpected things but don't look for that here.

[Camera One]

I agree this Emma in "Firebird" is not different at all from the Tallahassee Emma.  Which makes no sense given what she went through.  August was emphatic that Emma must not be in a happy relationship and needs to go to prison, but we still have no idea why he believed that so strongly.  In fact, these flashbacks made that plot point even more nonsensical.  The Writers did not need to create some new random reason for why Emma was so closed off or why she built up her walls.  It makes one wonder whether they even think through these dumb scenarios they write.  

In 4B, they said August had actually met The Apprentice.  Frankly, I don't think the Writers have even thought about exactly what the Apprentice told August.  The only thing that makes somewhat sense at this point is that Emma needed to be apart from Henry, so she could TLK him to break the Curse.

This episode was another example of lost potential.  Jennifer Morrison could have played the heck out of showing Emma just coming out of prison, and the flashbacks could have been so much deeper and more organic than 48-hours-with-dumbass-mentor.

Clearly, they wanted there to be a huge contrast before and after The Jacket, so they went waaaaaaaaaaay overboard with Eternal Sunshine of the Emma who met Cleo.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Camera One

[dr pepper]

darn it. when hades said they had to go down deeper than he would go and that there was a test that involved the condition of one's heart, i thought i knew what was coming. What's deeper than the greek underworld? how about a significantly older underworld. so i was expecting to see anubis. but no. stupid writers; the one time i actually wanted them to mangle the source material and they just give us a self service ordeal.

[InsertWordHere]

Gah, I just realized that they made Neal's warning to Emma turn out to be correct. "This won't end the way you think it will." 

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Gah, I just realized that they made Neal's warning to Emma turn out to be correct. "This won't end the way you think it will." 

0___0

He jinxed it.

[OnceUponAJen]

Neal ruins everything.

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Gah, I just realized that they made Neal's warning to Emma turn out to be correct. "This won't end the way you think it will." 

Initially, maybe. 

[Bishop]

On 5/3/2016 at 7:51 AM, YaddaYadda said:

After seeing the Zelena/Hades TLK and how meaningless that thing is about to become because I think we all know he is playing her like a fiddle, the TLK has become very meh.

I agree, which is why I think Hook's comments to Emma when they were standing in front of the scales said nothing about a kiss.  He said that True Love (in whatever form it takes) is the greatest magic of all.  I think that's still true, but I think the TLK has been overdone at this point.  It doesn't have it's oomph, especially after the last two fiascos with Red and Dorothy and now with Zelena and Hades.  I don't think it's the kiss that's important but the act or existence of True Love, which is why Emma and Killian's true love test had nothing to do with a kiss.  It was a moment of self-sacrifice, both wiling to die for the other in the moment they are both dying.  

Quote

That entire operation was a failure, which I'm actually not entirely annoyed with because Hades is a God, and you can't just march into the Underworld and think you can just take it on and win. That's arrogant.

I think the characters who possess magic tend to feel a bit arrogant about their power.  Gold, Regina, Zelena especially, and even Emma to a degree.  They have this idea that magic can take on and defeat anyone.  I'm more sympathetic to Emma in that she's lost so much in her life that I can accept how hard she fights to keep what she loves.  

[YaddaYadda]

29 minutes ago, Bishop said:

I agree, which is why I think Hook's comments to Emma when they were standing in front of the scales said nothing about a kiss.  He said that True Love (in whatever form it takes) is the greatest magic of all.  I think that's still true, but I think the TLK has been overdone at this point.  It doesn't have it's oomph, especially after the last two fiascos with Red and Dorothy and now with Zelena and Hades.  I don't think it's the kiss that's important but the act or existence of True Love, which is why Emma and Killian's true love test had nothing to do with a kiss.  It was a moment of self-sacrifice, both wiling to die for the other in the moment they are both dying.  

As far as tests go, this one is sort of book ending the Camelot arc with Merlin, and how his ass didn't get blown up like his friend's was. If you don't pass the test, you die. Just ask Merlin's friend, and Sir Kay how they feel right now.

But if you pass the test, the reward is a pretty big one. Merlin got rewarded with magic and eternal life.

I'm sure CS have a TLK in their future, but I really am over the whole thing. 

[Canada]

This was a pivotal episode for me.... after multiple crappy seasons, I finally deleted this from my viewing list.  The first season was great, but since then it's been really bad.  The storylines are ridiculous, the acting has become terrible, and the special effects (never great to start with) are now just laughable.  Really, show?  Hades finds love and becomes Mr. Nice Guy??  Bye OUAT.  You could have been great.

[Leia1979]

After reading up on the variations of the Firebird tale, I wonder if the writers were really thinking Phoenix. In the flashbacks (and boy, was I excited to have an Emma-centric episode), we see Emma transform as she sheds her criminal past to become red-leather-armor-wearing bail bondsperson Emma. Heck, Cleo's even supposed to take Emma to Phoenix. I was hoping Cleo would turn out to be Emma's mentor, but this show loves to give Emma the short end of the stick at all times. But I digress...

This possible connection to the Phoenix tale leads me to hope that Hook is going to be reborn from the ashes, as it were, sometime in the next few episodes. 

Other than outright laughter at the Zelena and Hades TLK, I enjoyed this episode. I am also pretty much here just for Captain Swan at this point, so while yet another angsty separation made me want to tell my TV to eff off, I'm glad they got some decent screentime.

[RadioGirl27]

21 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

As far as tests go, this one is sort of book ending the Camelot arc with Merlin, and how his ass didn't get blown up like his friend's was. If you don't pass the test, you die. Just ask Merlin's friend, and Sir Kay how they feel right now.

But if you pass the test, the reward is a pretty big one. Merlin got rewarded with magic and eternal life.

Not in this case. There was not reward, only more pain and more angst.

[kingshearte]

On one hand, I have to believe that there is no way that will be the end for Emma and Killian. Just... no.

On the other hand, this show doesn't really inspire all that much trust that they'll make things (specifically, this thing) right.

On yet another hand (don't ask where I got it), there's a part of me that almost hopes this is indeed the end for them, because then I can stop watching this silliness. The infuriating thing about this show for me is that, while the first season or so is by far the best, we don't get Captain Swan until after that, and although it took me a little time to get there, I love Captain Swan. I love Killian, and I really really love Killian and Emma. So I've been watching this increasingly bizarre and infuriating mess because I'm not prepared to give up on my CS fix. As long as that's a thing, I'll be there. If not, I can quit this mess.

I don't normally dabble in spoilers, but I think I might have to here...

[InsertWordHere]

3 minutes ago, kingshearte said:

I don't normally dabble in spoilers, but I think I might have to here

It's up to you, but I should warn you, (not really a spoiler, more like info on the current state of spoilers below)

Spoiler

going into the spoiler thread right now might spoil you a little too much. I would be happy to answer any questions you have by PM in as vague a manner as possible if that would help.

[darkestboy]

I really loved this one. The flashbacks to Emma getting her red jacket, being a bail bondswoman and the scenes with Cleo were some of the best we've had this season.

I was a little worried they were going to use Hades's love for Zelena (that is genuine) to 'redeem' him so I was delighted when it was revealed that he was playing everyone instead. Nice move, show.

The team up with the Blind Witch and Cruella was a lot of fun as was Rumple damning his father for eternity. That's one horrible act of Rumple's I can fully support.

I'm not a Captain Swan shipper (not am I anti-shipper) but the scenes were pretty powerful between the two of them this week. There's also three episodes left so Hook might not be entirely doomed just yet.

Nice that Hades is in Storybrooke as well, 9/10

[RadioGirl27]

After rewatching this, I hated it even more than the first time. The flashback is terrible. It makes no sense and it has nothing to do with what is happening in present time. And it does a big disservice to Emma as a character. There is an enormous disconnection between this reckless and obssesive Emma  and the one we saw in the pilot. And really, at that point Emma had already given up Henry so she should have understood what Cleo was trying to tell her.

And the tackle? It's even more ridiculous the second time. Upon rewatch, I don't consider it a TL confirmation for CS, just another proof that Emma is a good person. And the dialogue in the scene is so frustrating. So, just a few minutes prior to this, Emma was ready to split her heart with Hook because she thinks they are TL, but now she is not sure. And Hook's line about Emma only accepting her feelings under dire circunstances makes little sense, and it is there so the writers can set their supposedly "super amazing" payoff for the finale.

And what can I say about the Regina-Robin-Hades-Zelena scene? Ugh, poor, poor Robin.

As you can see, the rewatch was incredibly frustrating and infuriating.

[Mathius]

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And the tackle? It's even more ridiculous the second time. Upon rewatch, I don't consider it a TL confirmation for CS, just another proof that Emma is a good person. 

I'm sorry, but the show itself said it's TL confirmation, and it wasn't just Emma who proved it, it was Hook too, and it was a freaking god pantheon's power that judged it.  I don't know why people are so hung up about this and insisting "kiss, not tackle!"  The novelty of a TLK has been destroyed this season three times over already (with Brennan Jones/Lady he didn't know, Ruby/Dorothy, and Hades/Zelena in this very episode), assuming it wasn't already with Regina/Henry in 3B; they needed to come up with something else and this was the best they could.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't care for this episode. I'm actually surprised to see Emma fans displeased with it since it is one of those elusive Emma-centrics, includes a character that doesn't screw her over, and confirms Captain Swan as TL. But even with all those things at play, it comes up short in the execution. To me, the flashbacks were a repeat of elements we've already seen since day one. The tackle was cheap and didn't do the couple justice at all. I also hate the retcon and how it portrays Emma as emotionally unstable and reckless.

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 I don't know why people are so hung up about this and insisting "kiss, not tackle!

Because tackles are not meaningful as in a romantic sense? 

Edited May 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

But a kiss only works if someone is cursed.  Hook was not cursed, he was dead.  TLK cannot resurrect the dead.

[Curio]

35 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm actually surprised to see Emma fans displeased with it since it is one of those elusive Emma-centrics, includes a character that doesn't screw her over, and confirms Captain Swan as TL.

It's the same issue I had with Hook's flashback in Swan Song. Just because they finally decided to give Emma a centric doesn't mean I have to like what they gave us. I've been begging for more Emma flashbacks because she's (supposedly) the main character, but if it's going to involve retcons and veers so far away from what I've built up in my head over the years, I'm going to be disappointed.

There's no reason Regina had to be awkwardly inserted into Hook's flashback about his father. There's no reason they had to screw with the timeline in Emma's flashback this episode. It's just sloppy writing.

[Camera One]

Lily would have made this flashback so much better (just kidding, I swear).

[RadioGirl27]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

I'm sorry, but the show itself said it's TL confirmation, and it wasn't just Emma who proved it, it was Hook too, and it was a freaking god pantheon's power that judged it.  I don't know why people are so hung up about this and insisting "kiss, not tackle!"  The novelty of a TLK has been destroyed this season three times over already (with Brennan Jones/Lady he didn't know, Ruby/Dorothy, and Hades/Zelena in this very episode), assuming it wasn't already with Regina/Henry in 3B; they needed to come up with something else and this was the best they could.

I'm not asking for a TLK, that lost it's meaning in season 3 with Regina giving Henry a TLK without a heart. What I want is something meaningful and emotionally fulfilling. But this scene with Hook and Emma was terribly written. When you need your characters to verbalize what is going on, you are doing something wrong. Everyone knew what had happened with Ruby/Dorothy or with Hades/Zelena. Every TL scene in the show has had the rainbow effect (even the Emma/Elsa true love handshake that was not breaking any curse). All except this one. Here we had a "WTF was that?" followed by a "oh well, Hook says it's TL so yay?".

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, just stating mine. And, for me, the tackle didn't confirm anything, or was meaningful or romantic.

Edited May 28, 2016 by RadioGirl27