S04.E07: Travel Agents

[dramachick]

Poor Gaad. I felt so sorry for him as he lamented the ruin of his career.

I don't know what to say about Martha at this point because "poor Martha" is woefully inadequate. What Philip has done to her is unspeakably cruel. Even Elizabeth was shocked at the audacity of him marrying Martha as she doubted he could pull off such a deception, but she didn't know the extent of Martha's vulnerabilities like Philip did. Of course, Martha wouldn't be in this mess if she hadn't lied to herself, but it's kind of hard to blame her for being so desperate for love.

On a purely emotional level, Philip has mismanaged the situation with Martha, and I think the only thing allowing him to keep it together and not have a complete melt-down is the love he has for his family. His success in seducing Martha into an asset/agent and subsequent revelation of his true self to her has resulted in so much inner conflict for him that he has put everything at risk, and if I were Elizabeth I'd be furious with him. But then again, his steadfast loyalty to those he cares about is what makes Philip the man she loves.

Stan still sucks.

[Umbelina]

In real life though, the FBI, CIA, MI5&6 ALL had serious moles that went undetected for years and years.  The KGB really did have an illegals program, and those spies lived quite a while here. 

[Darren]

16 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I guess I'm of a different mindset than many on the forum. I don't care for Elizabeth or Phillip. They are, after all,  Russian spies in my country. Though I do want the show to continue, I also want them caught. The best result for me is to have them turned. Otherwise, they can go by way of any other spy. I feel sorry for Martha but I think she knew but was in denial because of her loneliness. I guess I want her saved somehow but in the US. Serve her time here.

There is a podcast interview with Alison Wright here:

www.goldderby.com/article/2016/alison-wright-interview-the-americans-season-4-confirmation-video/

She's charming with a great accent.

What about seeing them as people, though? Do you find it impossible to have any empathy for anyone who's at one time been considered an "enemy"? After all, the Cold War relations began to change, at least partially, when Gorbachov and Reagan grew to see each other as human beings with many common goals.

[Chaos Theory]

What to do about Martha?  In large part will be determined in large part on how many more seasons the show intends.  I can see her making due in Russia for the rest of the season and then have Gaad and Stan trade some Russians in custody for her return.    Martha now knows ALMOST everything and if the show doesn't intend to last more then a season or two then she could be a geniun threat to the Jennings. 

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

What to do about Martha?  In large part will be determined in large part on how many more seasons the show intends.  I can see her making due in Russia for the rest of the season and then have Gaad and Stan trade some Russians in custody for her return.    Martha now knows ALMOST everything and if the show doesn't intend to last more then a season or two then she could be a geniun threat to the Jennings. 

The KGB would never trade Martha, she can identify 4 of their operations officers.  That would never happen.

I do think the boat  part of this journey would be the most vulnerable, those waters between Cuba and Florida were watched pretty closely.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[pasdetrois]

Maybe the Rezidentura woman arranged a pilot to transport the rat. Looks like many of us are thinking that Martha and the rat will take a ride together.

When the agents were searching Martha's apartment, they leafed through her scrapbook. Were there photos of Clark in there? Stan was standing a few feet away.

Excellent episode. I think Martha is in shock. I'm wondering if some shenanigans will go down in FL. Did the Rezidentural woman say that the plane would land in FL before heading to Cuba?

[Ina123]

10 minutes ago, Darren said:

What about seeing them as people, though? Do you find it impossible to have any empathy for anyone who's at one time been considered an "enemy"? After all, the Cold War relations began to change, at least partially, when Gorbachov and Reagan grew to see each other as human beings with many common goals.

I guess I remember the fear of the Cold War and Putin is not Gorby. "Trust but verify" is over.

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

I guess I'm of a different mindset than many on the forum. I don't care for Elizabeth or Phillip. They are, after all,  Russian spies in my country. Though I do want the show to continue, I also want them caught. The best result for me is to have them turned. 

You are not alone.  I love the show, but ultimately I want the Jennings' to pay for their multiple murders and espionage (I can still picture Martha's co-worker Gene swinging from the ceiling).

[Darren]

One nitpick I have: I've been expecting that the one time when Martha would REALLY LOSE IT is when she realizes Clark's love isn't real. That's the one thing that's led her to betray everything and everyone else in her life. The moment she realized that she should have hit the roof. I was actually looking forward to (and simultaneously cringing about) that scene - and in the end it was kind of anti-climatic in an episode that was otherwise, truly amazing. Maybe she's going to hit the roof next time out. Maybe it is shock right now that's keeping her somewhat subdued. We shall see.

[babyPhat279]

I have a few questions, hopefully someone can answer:

1. Is this the first episode that put Dylan Baker in the credits? That was a fast jump to being a regular, though I do like his character. At first I thought he was kind of a one-trick pony and acting too much like he has on The Good Wife, but in recent episodes I don't feel that way anymore.
2. Is this story that Phillip and Elizabeth tell people about being taken care of in Russia and treated with honor ever a real possibility, or is it just a sales pitch? I feel like Martha would be treated as an outsider at best. For all we know she could have zero sympathy for their cause, she's only in this mess because of being blind emotionally. I guess we don't even know for sure yet if she will make it to Russia, but did anything like this really happen?
3. How realistic is it that Phillip keeps pushing back on his handler? Does he not expect there to be repercussions at some point?

I like that, when asked his real name, Phillip says "Phillip." I think at home with his family is really who he is, not Mikhail anymore.

[Darren]

1 minute ago, Ina123 said:

I guess I remember the fear of the Cold War and Putin is not Gorby. "Trust but verify" is over.

I remember the Cold War, too. And I was in Berlin as a teenage tourist soon after the Wall fell. Amazing moment for humanity.

[Ina123]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The KGB would never trade Martha, she can identify 4 of their operations officers.  That would never happen.

I do think the boat  part of this journey would be the most vulnerable, those waters between Cuba and Florida were watched pretty closely.

That's right. They'll never trade her. She's seen them...Gabe and Phillip. She even knows Phillip's name. (if Phillip comes clean and tells what he did, they'll know that too).

That's why if the end result is that the FBI gets her back, it must be during ex-fil. Before Cuba.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

One nitpick I have: I've been expecting that the one time when Martha would REALLY LOSE IT is when she realizes Clark's love isn't real. 

He said he wasn't coming with her, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't love her. Really, it wasn't a total lie. He did wind up caring about her personally--too much to just use her. It really is down to him that he's protecting her.

Quote

Is this story that Phillip and Elizabeth tell people about being taken care of in Russia and treated with honor ever a real possibility, or is it just a sales pitch? 

I think it's absolutely true. Doesn't mean they'd be treated as queens or anything, but I think they were taken care of, yes.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

That's right. They'll never trade her. She's seen them...Gabe and Phillip. She even knows Phillip's name. (if Phillip comes clean and tells what he did, they'll know that too).

That's why if the end result is that the FBI gets her back, it must be during ex-fil. Before Cuba.

She's also seen Claudia.

I think Philip really believes what he's telling Martha, but no, I don't think there will be much honor there.  She won't be treated badly, by their standards anyway, but will she share a bathroom and kitchen with others and have a hard time getting food, or at the very least, variety of food?  Yes.  She's a dupe, not a patriot.  I don't know if Philip is fooling her or himself, I suspect himself.

[mattie0808]

Just one quick observation...I didn't turn the channel before the immediate replay started around 11 last night, and thought I heard Phillip, when given the "If you *were* her husband" routine from Gabriel, give his first answer as "Rock Creek Park." Is that right? Phillip guessed right -- even if he was panicked and angry and frustrated and didn't really mean it and everyone ignored him -- right off the bat? He really is a very good judge of people, even when he personally is just coming completely unspooled.

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In real life though, the FBI, CIA, MI5&6 ALL had serious moles that went undetected for years and years.  The KGB really did have an illegals program, and those spies lived quite a while here. 

The worst part of this show, however, is not that there are moles and illegals, but that the FBI and CIA in  this show have been so completely inept in their response to that fact. Now, it has improved mightily in that regard this season; we don't have the FBI being unable to execute a simple stake-out, or have important CIA managers giving complete strangers unfettered access to their homes, but it has been a real problem in the writing in seasons past.

It is interesting that the worst moles to ever betray the FBI and CIA, Ames and Hanssen, were not recruited by the KGB, but rather simply walked into Soviet embassies, to offer they betrayal for cash. Hanssen, in fact, kept his identity secret from the Soviets/Russians for years.They knew he was selling them extremely valuable secrets, resulting in many KGB double agents being executed, but they were never quite sure who Hanssen exactly was, until just before he was caught.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

Just one quick observation...I didn't turn the channel before the immediate replay started around 11 last night, and thought I heard Phillip, when given the "If you *were* her husband" routine from Gabriel, give his first answer as "Rock Creek Park." Is that right? Phillip guessed right -- even if he was panicked and angry and frustrated and didn't really mean it and everyone ignored him -- right off the bat? He really is a very good judge of people, even when he personally is just coming completely unspooled.

Did he? That's great! I heard someone say the scene was showing that Philip didn't really listen to Martha so didn't know what she liked, but I thought it was a neat little undercut of the TV cliche where people always magically know where someone would wander in a crisis, as if that's just a thing that's easy to guess even though the person has never done it. Or like everyone has some spot they go to think. Philip came up with the kind of possibilities a real husband might-perfect if one of them was right.

It's like when they had the "You feel something or you saw something?" convo and the showrunners said that was kind of poking the TV cliche where spies know things in their gut when in reality they see stuff.

[Umbelina]

I don't really see it as inept though.  Frankly, the FBI discovered Martha rather quickly if you compare it to the decades of leaks all the agencies had including the KGB, FBI, CIA, MI6 MI5, and the other countries as well.  We know of some of the famous ones, but there were many many others.  People are human.

This stuff really did happen, and discovering Martha in a year is actually pretty damn good!  Ha.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ina123]

18 minutes ago, babyPhat279 said:

1. Is this story that Phillip and Elizabeth tell people about being taken care of in Russia and treated with honor ever a real possibility, or is it just a sales pitch? I feel like Martha would be treated as an outsider at best. For all we know she could have zero sympathy for their cause, she's only in this mess because of being blind emotionally. I guess we don't even know for sure yet if she will make it to Russia, but did anything like this really happen?

 

Apparently there is a lot of honor after you die there. This is a bit about Kim Philby of the Cambridge Five who eventually defected to the USSR. This guy along with his other 4 conspirators virtually brought down England's MI5. Martha doesn't come close.

Upon his arrival in Moscow, Philby discovered that he was not a colonel in the KGB, as he had been led to believe. He was paid 500 rubles a month and his family was not immediately able to join him in exile. It was ten years before he visited KGB headquarters and he was given little real work. Philby was under virtual house arrest, guarded, with all visitors screened by the KGB. Mikhail Lyubimov, his closest KGB contact, explained that this was to guard his safety, but later admitted that the real reason was the KGB's fear that Philby would return to London.

Philby occupied himself by writing his memoirs, published in the UK in 1968 under the title My Silent War, not published in the Soviet Union until 1980. He continued to read The Times, which was not generally available in the USSR, listened to the BBC World Service, and was an avid follower of cricket.

The award of the OBE was cancelled and annulled in 1965. Though Philby claimed publicly in January 1988 that he did not regret his decisions and that he missed nothing about England except some friends, Colman's mustard, and Lea & Perrins Worcestershire sauce,] his wife Rufina Ivanovna Pukhova later described Philby as "disappointed in many ways" by what he found in Moscow. "He saw people suffering too much," but he consoled himself by arguing that "the ideals were right but the way they were carried out was wrong. The fault lay with the people in charge."] Pukhova said, "he was struck by disappointment, brought to tears. He said, 'Why do old people live so badly here? After all, they won the war.'" Philby drank heavily and suffered from loneliness and depression; according to Rufina, he had attempted suicide by slashing his wrists sometime in the 1960s.

Philby died of heart failure in Moscow in 1988. He was awarded a hero's funeral and numerous medals by the USSR.

So if the great Kim Philby was treated thus, imagine Martha's fate.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Ina123
Italics

[teddysmom]

Quote

this stuff really did happen, and discovering Martha in a year is actually pretty damn good!  Ha.

Exactly. Wasn't Hansen working for the KGB for like 10 years before they figured out it was him. And after they had him head up the department looking for the mole. (Just watched Breach again the other night). 

Re: the recap of this episode - is this a cake or death situation? 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't really see it as inept though.  Frankly, the FBI discovered Martha rather quickly if you compare it to the decades of leaks all the agencies had (KGB, FBI, CIA, MI6 MI5, and the other countries as well.

This stuff really did happen, and discovering Martha in a year is actually pretty damn good!  Ha.

I was talking about previous seasons, when Stan couldn't supervise a simple stakeout, or a CIA manager had complete strangers traipsing through his house, free to plant listening devices. That was just lazy writing. I'm impressed that they have tightened things up so well, this deep into the life of the show. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Bannon

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, Darren said:

Also, Martha was getting really emotional in the park, and other than tazing her - which wasn't a thing in the 80s, right?! - Elizabeth had to do something to snap Martha out of it. Kind of cold? Yes. But completely in character for Elizabeth.

I believe Martha was specifically threatening to scream, so I assume the blow was actually a specific punch designed to prevent her from crying out.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think she would already have an identity in place before she even left Russia, documents, passport, driver's license, back story, etc.  She could have just moved to DC from the Midwest, etc.

She would've had a cover identity, but she wouldn't have time to establish it -- to get a job and develop a routine to avoid casting suspicion on her illegal activities. Judging by Joan's reaction to Philip's visit, I guess the idea might be that she has no routine -- that she just stays in her house all day, every day working the phones and eating borscht -- but that seems like a really effective way to make people suspicious.

Because it's not like this is a situational cover identity like Clark Westerfeld. It's an ongoing gig that, if it were compromised, could lead the Americans to every other KGB operative and agent. Joan arguably needs to have the most airtight cover of anyone. Which I guess is why they didn't make her an American agent, come to think of it, since her role requires absolute loyalty, but then why not make her a veteran illegal who's been reassigned, or something like that?

Though I think the most logical scenario is for there to not be a centralized KGB phone system at all. The operatives should be recruiting their own agents to handle their communications needs (which is what I assumed the relationship between Philip and George was in season 1). That way, if someone like Larrick or the FBI traces a call to its source, only one operation or at worst one operative is compromised.

Quote

I don't have a problem imagining the KGB could establish a communications center though.  What am I missing?

The problem is that we saw in season 2 that their network requires an elaborate technical setup, including rewiring junction boxes and tapping into cables in other people's basements. The notion that Joan could set something like that up in a few weeks immediately after arriving from Russia, with only theoretical knowledge of the DC area's telecommunications network, seems crazy.

And if, on the other hand, the idea is that KGB has all these other veteran technical operatives who installed the system, that just begs the question of why one of them wasn't recruited to sit in a house and answer the phones.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

Yeah, that's why I kind of love this show so much.  There are no super spies.  They are all just people, they screw up, they get distracted by life, things are missed.  This isn't treated as some movie, because it has the time to show things, not the two hours and out of most spy stories.

Just like I absolutely do not fault Stan for not suspecting his neighbors.  That way would lie madness, suspecting everyone you meet of being a RED, never having a personal. life. 

Both Stan and Philip are good at their jobs, VERY good, but both are also screw ups in many ways.  I do think they will face some music for that.  Both of them, not for mistakes, but for bucking their organizations way too many times.

[Darren]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't really see it as inept though.  Frankly, the FBI discovered Martha rather quickly if you compare it to the decades of leaks all the agencies had including the KGB, FBI, CIA, MI6 MI5, and the other countries as well.  We know of some of the famous ones, but there were many many others.  People are human.

This stuff really did happen, and discovering Martha in a year is actually pretty damn good!  Ha.

Agreed. I am actually more astounded by real life stories of double agents that went undetected when obvious clues existed everywhere you looked - like swelling bank accounts and massive house purchases. It's like agencies were blind to the possibility of high penetration for a long time. Like, seriously, I wouldn't believe these stories if it weren't the case that they're actually real. Human beings can be and regularly are - completely inept. And large groups of people - i.e. agencies, even more so.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Darren

[Umbelina]

I see what you are saying Dev, but just because we don't know her story yet, doesn't mean she hasn't got one.  It's a vulnerability, but a necessary one.

I can fan-wank dozens of covers for her though, pretty easily.  For just one, she doesn't go out much because she's a recent widow who just moved there from Arizona, and isn't up to socializing.  IF anyone noticed her at all?  I mean, I don't track the comings and goings of my neighbors, most people really don't, especially in a big city.  She could also have the cover of a novelist or artist who spends most of her time working at home.

We may learn more about her, but just because we haven't doesn't necessarily mean the KGB hasn't covered her ass.  Oh, and absolutely I think someone else set that up for her, or helped with it. 

[Moose135]

43 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Excellent episode. I think Martha is in shock. I'm wondering if some shenanigans will go down in FL. Did the Rezidentural woman say that the plane would land in FL before heading to Cuba?

The plan was to fly down to the Florida Keys, then take a boat to Cuba.

[babyPhat279]

Can anyone explain why they always use the identity of someone who died? I had gathered this was so they could get a hold of a legitimate social security number, which seems necessary for the Jennings' lives, but was it really needed for the Clark identity?

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, babyPhat279 said:

Can anyone explain why they always use the identity of someone who died? I had gathered this was so they could get a hold of a legitimate social security number, which seems necessary for the Jennings' lives, but was it really needed for the Clark identity?

Yes, and it was the most common method back then for deep cover, birth certificates more than SSNs.  Faked documents were used for less long-term ops at times.

[ebk57]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Woodley Park isn't really a "park", it's a neighborhood that borders on Rock Creek Park, so plausibly Martha was walking from Woodley Park (where she could have gotten by Metro) into a nearby section of Rock Creek Park. Not sure why "Woodley Park" had to be mentioned when they could have stuck with Rock Creek Park (it's huge) all along.

I did chuckle when they said Martha was in Woodley Park and they actually meant a park.   Even if she was in the Woodley Park area of Rock Creek Park, they mentioned that she was at the Valley Trail head, which I believe is at Military Road...quite a hike from Woodley Park, especially in heels.

The Taft Bridge stand-in was pretty good.  Too much water though.  Rock Creek is fairly small.

[Chaos Theory]

Oh ultimely I want P & E caught.  I can "root" for them and still want things to end with them getting caught by Stan.  It was the same thing with Dexter and Breaking Bad.   I tend to like characters and relationships that are ultimately doomed.

 

Also unpopular opinion:. I ship Clark and Martha.  I ship them hard.  It broke my hear a little when Philip said he loved Elizabeth and not Martha.   

Edited April 28, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[gwhh]

I think Elizabeth had something in her pocket (gun or knife) and used that to hit Martha.  If you notice Elizabeth had her hand in her pocket the whole time she was talking to Martha and than took it out and hit her with her hand and used something in her pocket as a blunt object. 

I thought Elizabeth was asking Phillip to go back to the USSR not because he loved Martha like a (wife or like he loves her) but because she wanted to test him on there love for each other.  Also, Elizabeth KNOWS that Phillip has talked about defecting (in the first episode with the guy in the truck) so she knows that one day he WILL defect and she does not want to have to make the choice to defect or kill him! 

I think Page just went next door to hang out and try to act like a normal kid for a while and think maybe she got the hots for Stan son. 

I think Martha would be a a real find for the KGB.  She got what 16 years working at the FBI.  She would know so much inside baseball.  They could always have an accident/suicide/or heart attack after she done spilling her gets to the KGB in the Soviet Union!

What is in that file the KGB lady keeps looking at? 

Edited April 28, 2016 by gwhh

[Ellaria]

Excellent episode. I'm not sure that Martha actually makes it to Russia.

There are a few little oddities that make me suspect that another shoe will drop. Tatiana is keeping something from Oleg and perhaps Arkady, too. She was very protective of that file when Oleg walked into her office. As others have pointed out, the message that she was dictating and seemingly didn't complete was odd. And then there is Oleg. This show is very deliberate with its characters; Oleg isn't just eye candy. He also isn't stupid. Stan commented that he was playing a long game with him but that "relationship" has to serve a purpose soon. Maybe that time is now.

Wouldn't Martha's parents be considered "loose ends" by the KGB?

Martha had few options last night and none of them were good. Still, I don't know that agreeing to go to Russia would have been my choice.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

There are a few little oddities that make me suspect that another shoe will drop. Tatiana is keeping something from Oleg and perhaps Arkady, too.

Is this supposed to be a secret? I thought we knew she was in the whatever-it's-called division that deals with bioweapons and neither Arkady or Oleg are allowed to know about it. Her pilot was for the rat.

Quote

Wouldn't Martha's parents be considered "loose ends" by the KGB?

They've seen Clark, Jennifer and their mother, at least. If I were the KGB I'd ask Martha to put in her message to them (that Philip wants to send them) that she left with Clark, at least.

Edited April 28, 2016 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

It did amaze me that they could not catch Martha in the park, even though it is a big park.  I would have expected every FBI agent, car, and snowmobile to be activated within five minutes to make this happen.  And I would think that whatever route Elizabeth took out of the park would have had to pass by FBI cars, and that Martha would be in the trunk.  I am amazed Elizabeth did not kill her in the park, after seeing no one was around.  I can only think she was taking Philip's feelings into account, as Elizabeth has killed under much more difficult situations. 

[Ellaria]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Is this supposed to be a secret? I thought we knew she was in the whatever-it's-called division that deals with bioweapons and neither Arkady or Oleg are allowed to know about it. Her pilot was for the rat.

I don't know. I thought that Arkady mentioned something about the bioweapons to her and Oleg (not sure about this). She was protective of that file when Oleg walked in.

[Darren]

To clarify, it's not that I want Philzabeth to "get away with it". But what I most look forward to is seeing their own internal processing when they realize what they've done - what "means" they've justified in support of their "ends". But I wanted the same thing for Stan when he cheated on Sandra, or when he killed a soon-to-be med student in revenge for his, unrelated, partner's death. It's the humanness of each character that is intriguing, rather than which "side" they're on.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Darren

[Primetimer]

How long will Martha last on the lam with two Cold War powers in hot pursuit?

View the full article

[Darren]

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I don't know. I thought that Arkady mentioned something about the bioweapons to her and Oleg (not sure about this). She was protective of that file when Oleg walked in.

I totally agree. There's something else going on with her that we're not privy to yet.

[Chaos Theory]

It was always just a matter of time before Martha had to face the consiquence of the lengths she would go for love.  What makes the show so good and special is how total and complete the fallout is. 

[stagmania]

7 minutes ago, Darren said:

To clarify, it's not that I want Philzabeth to "get away with it". But what I most look forward to is seeing their own internal processing when they realize what they've done - what "means" they've justified in support of their "ends". But I wanted the same thing for Stan when he cheated on Sandra, or when he killed a soon-to-be med student in revenge for his, unrelated, partner's death. It's the humanness of each character that is intriguing, rather than "which side" they're on.

I see it the same way. From where I'm standing, there are no innocent characters on this show (except for the children, so far), and I don't get too caught up in trying to decide which are the most evil or who has the morally upright cause on their side. I just find the choices they make and the shifting motivations behind them fascinating, and look forward to the moments of reckoning that eventually come for all of them. 

[Ina123]

I started Breaking Bad and Dexter but ditched them. I really don't like feeling like I should cheer for bad people. At the time I had impressionable young people in my home so I quit watching because I did not want them getting the idea that these bad people were cool. I guess I've stuck with The Americans because it's just me now and I understand what's going on. But it's odd. I never feel like cheering for E and P. I'm very aware of who they are but I really love the tension. That's why I want them to be turned...eventually. I want to be "for" them I just can't be as spies against my country.

I lived thru Gary Powers and East Germany and Checkpoint Charlie. This is real stuff.

I can't get rid of a feeling that Oleg will come to Stan. Not Stan to Oleg. Oleg isn't a happy camper. I'm an old Granny but dang that dude is good looking.

[madam magpie]

I want them to get away with it. I consider them the flawed heroes of the story, and I definitely want them to win. How they manage that, what "winning" means, and their own ethical, physical, and emotional struggles to get there are what interest me. But I don't want to invest years in their story and then have them end up dead or in a federal prison at the end. The American govt has done horrible things in the name of national security, so I don't just automatically pick our side/spies over the Soviet side/spies in a story. (I grew up during the Cold War too.)

Edited April 28, 2016 by madam magpie

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Apparently there is a lot of honor after you die there. This is a bit about Kim Philby of the Cambridge Five who eventually defected to the USSR. This guy along with his other 4 conspirators virtually brought down England's MI5. Martha doesn't come close.

Upon his arrival in Moscow, Philby discovered that he was not a colonel in the KGB, as he had been led to believe. He was paid 500 rubles a month and his family was not immediately able to join him in exile. It was ten years before he visited KGB headquarters and he was given little real work. Philby was under virtual house arrest, guarded, with all visitors screened by the KGB. Mikhail Lyubimov, his closest KGB contact, explained that this was to guard his safety, but later admitted that the real reason was the KGB's fear that Philby would return to London.

Philby occupied himself by writing his memoirs, published in the UK in 1968 under the title My Silent War, not published in the Soviet Union until 1980. He continued to read The Times, which was not generally available in the USSR, listened to the BBC World Service, and was an avid follower of cricket.

The award of the OBE was cancelled and annulled in 1965. Though Philby claimed publicly in January 1988 that he did not regret his decisions and that he missed nothing about England except some friends, Colman's mustard, and Lea & Perrins Worcestershire sauce,] his wife Rufina Ivanovna Pukhova later described Philby as "disappointed in many ways" by what he found in Moscow. "He saw people suffering too much," but he consoled himself by arguing that "the ideals were right but the way they were carried out was wrong. The fault lay with the people in charge."] Pukhova said, "he was struck by disappointment, brought to tears. He said, 'Why do old people live so badly here? After all, they won the war.'" Philby drank heavily and suffered from loneliness and depression; according to Rufina, he had attempted suicide by slashing his wrists sometime in the 1960s.

Philby died of heart failure in Moscow in 1988. He was awarded a hero's funeral and numerous medals by the USSR.

So if the great Kim Philby was treated thus, imagine Martha's fate.

 

The  USSR of the late 60's is very different from the one Martha is going too though.

What if Tatiana is the double agent and she gives up Martha to the FBI?

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, TimWil said:

That line Gaad had, something like "I might as well be dead," was definitely foreshadowing. In next week's episode I won't be surprised if he either ends up committing suicide or being the hapless victim in the crossfire as the Martha storyline reaches its inevitable climax.

I've known a few people who have suicided and it's amazing how almost all of them have said something exactly like that the last time I saw them. One of them lived a very wild lifestyle and the last time I saw him, he told me, "I saw an old friend the other day and she looked at me and said, "I can't believe that you are still alive! Ha! Ha! Ha!" He laughed like he thought that was just hilarious. Two weeks later I heard he had killed himself. Very ominous.

[sugarbaker design]

Quote

But I don't want to invest years in their story and then have them end up dead or in a federal prison at the end. 

I wouldn't mind, but those are only two possibilities.  How about a return to the Motherland and living a very humdrum, gray, drab life of food lines after living the capitalist life for so long?  Separation from Page and Henry?  I'm sure these creative writers could think up something wonderful.

[mjc570]

Minor thing - I very much liked - and thought it was in character - that instead of taking all the credit for arranging the transportation, Oleg gave credit to his colleague for finding the pilot.

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I guess I'm of a different mindset than many on the forum. I don't care for Elizabeth or Phillip. They are, after all,  Russian spies in my country. Though I do want the show to continue, I also want them caught. The best result for me is to have them turned. Otherwise, they can go by way of any other spy. I feel sorry for Martha but I think she knew but was in denial because of her loneliness. I guess I want her saved somehow but in the US. Serve her time here.

There is a podcast interview with Alison Wright here:

www.goldderby.com/article/2016/alison-wright-interview-the-americans-season-4-confirmation-video/

She's charming with a great accent.

Wow! What a great podcast. Any fan of this show will love that. Thanks so much!

[madam magpie]

7 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

I wouldn't mind, but those are only two possibilities.  How about a return to the Motherland and living a very humdrum, gray, drab life of food lines after living the capitalist life for so long?  Separation from Page and Henry?  I'm sure these creative writers could think up something wonderful.

Naw. Like I said, I want them to win. 

[Knuckles]

That woman Tatiana has been spooky from the get-go...and she has been careful to not let Oleg into her confidence. To Arkady, she is polite but not deferential in her refusals to give him any idea of what she is up to. Suggests to me that she has powerful backers in the Soviet Union and that both Oleg and Arkady recognize that and are careful around her. Oleg is a little better at the game, since he always agrees with her, and never lets her see any hesitation.

And no, Martha is never going to make it to Russia, at least not alive. The KGB had a cozy relationship with Cuba, no need to bring Martha to Moscow, they can hold her and debrief her in Havana. She has the ability to id too many valuable agents...Philip, Elizabeth, Gabriel, and she knows what they have asked her to steal from the FBI...all too valuable to risk on an amateur trapped in a honeypot operation. Thanks to the poster above, I had not considered her parents, but I suspect they will be having an accident soon. They might ask too many questions about where is Martha...or even list her with the police as a missing person.

Philip really destroyed a living human being. And his weapon of choice...to use her loneliness against her.. I really hope he faces karmic payback for his cruelty. Given how easily he and Elizabeth have killed in the past, there is something more cruel about this slow flaying of Martha. And all his possible regrets add up to nothing...he returns to his wife and children. As for Elizabeth, that punch carried the full weight of a jealous wife...as well as an angry political fanatic.

[Conan Troutman]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

Why would they need to kill her?  It's not like she could tell anyone what she knows about the KGB from Russia.

I can't see the CIA bothering about Martha once she's in Russia, the CIA didn't really have much free movement inside of Russia, it was difficult to impossible to meet with anyone, let alone kill them.  There are some good stories about being assigned to Moscow as CIA on that DVD commentary on the movie RED.  Full facial masks were used, switching wives for the evening, all kinds of tricks to even meet briefly with a contact.  Rushing out of the embassy and killing someone doesn't really seem likely.  Aside from that?  By the time Martha is anywhere in public, she will have told the KGB everything she knows anyway.

I always assumed the CIA also had agents like the Jenningses running around in Russia. Still, even if there aren't, I'm not sure the KGB would take even that small risk. So I can definitely see them killing her once they picked her brain. Even if they don't, I doubt she'll be free to do whatever she wants, maybe locked away in one of those bunkers Nina was in. She also doesn't really have a ton of valuable skills. She's a secretary who doesn't speak Russian, so she couldn't even serve as a translator or something.  

2 hours ago, Moose135 said:

I think that's been my problem all along with the show.  Yes, it's well done, and they keep the tension high, but in the end, I don't want "the heroes" to win.

You don't have to root for them. Breaking Bad or Hannibal worked just fine without rooting for the protagonist. The one show that didn't work was Dexter, because the show did treat him like a straight up hero, at least in the later seasons. 

That said, I don't really want them to get caught and then locked up, that doesn't sound all that exciting. I'd really like Philip to be turned eventually, with or without Elizabeth knowing. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She's also seen Claudia.

When did that happen? I can't remember. Was it related to their wedding?

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Apparently there is a lot of honor after you die there. This is a bit about Kim Philby of the Cambridge Five who eventually defected to the USSR. This guy along with his other 4 conspirators virtually brought down England's MI5. Martha doesn't come close.

[...]

So if the great Kim Philby was treated thus, imagine Martha's fate.

Yeah, that sounds more realistic to me. Sure, she helped them and maybe that's enough reason not to kill her, but I think the KGB won't be terribly loyal to her. 

15 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

What if Tatiana is the double agent and she gives up Martha to the FBI?

Interesting thought. Is that realistic, though? It seems to me like she's somewhat high up the pecking order, were there any defectors/double agents with high ranks? 

I thought maybe she was from the Sovjet equivalent of internal affairs and trying to sniff out potential moles in the Rezidentura or preparing some mission of really high importance or whatever. But of course I know very little about all that stuff.