S05.E18: Ruby Slippers

[Rumsy4]

They kept bringing up her mother - where is she?   A much more likely source of true love imo.

 

She died protecting Belle from the Ogres. Maybe Rumple should look for her in Underbrooke and bottle a kiss from her.

[Olivia Y]

If you think about it, Mulan/Red could've worked using the same storyline, assuming Mulan's canonical love interest isn't in OuaT-verse (that we know of) and Aurora is with Philip so she doesn't have anyone else either, and maybe her parents (maybe still alive?) could've been the 'false lead' instead of Auntie Em. The only thing is it'd probably have to be set somewhere other than Oz so it won't have the Zelena connection, but I'm sure they could come up with some way around that that's no more contrived than what we actually got. And even if it's only an offscreen build-up of a relationship, that's similar to what Cinderella go and that's still more believable than the instant TL thing they've decided to go with. 

 

Are either of the two actresses going to be back in the main storyline anytime soon? If they had conflicting schedules then I can understand why they won't get paired up, but if they're both one-episode only characters then...no idea why they needed to do that.

[Guest]

I'm hoping at the end of the Underbrooke arc that Henry being the author goes away.

Its a crutch for the writers that I just don't trust them with.  It lets them hand wave the plot along by having a magic way of getting from A to C.

 

Also, it cheapens emotional arcs.  What is the point of Snowing having faith in finding each other (and that being their thing)  if Henry can just tell Charming that Snow is safe wherever.

 

They are going to go too far with this.

[Shanna Marie]

However, if I reply those scenes in my mind, but it's me instead of Red and someone like Matt Bomer or AlexSkars instead of Dorothy, then, yep, I would totally fall in love with them and their cranky asses. Right there. What I'm trying to say is that the only explanation I see is that Red thought Dorothy was insanely hot.

That could be the start of a love story, but magic-level True Love? Shouldn't it go beyond mere physical attraction?

 

This was like a romantic comedy where they jumped straight from the meet cute and initial bickering to the running through the airport to catch her before she boards the plane to Paris, skipping the wacky hijinks, bonding moments, serious connection, and all-is-lost misunderstanding.

[Camera One]

And then calling it "like every other love story we've written!"

[YaddaYadda]

I'm hoping at the end of the Underbrooke arc that Henry being the author goes away.

Its a crutch for the writers that I just don't trust them with.  It lets them hand wave the plot along by having a magic way of getting from A to C.

 

Also, it cheapens emotional arcs.  What is the point of Snowing having faith in finding each other (and that being their thing)  if Henry can just tell Charming that Snow is safe wherever.

 

They are going to go too far with this.

 

I thought the Author had to be there (in that specific realm) to be able to record the stories. 

 

I was surprised when he was writing about RD's TLK, and Snow making it to SB. Snow was holding her baby in front of Granny's, and after whining so much about it, would it have been so hard to just insert a scene of her reuniting with her kid?

 

And yeah, I get that they wanted everyone to know Snow made it home.

[Mathius]

I thought the Author had to be there (in that specific realm) to be able to record the stories.

 

No, back in S4 they did say that even in his book prison, Isaac was still being required to do his job as the Author, which means that clearly he was allowed to look into the going-ons in other realms.  Isaac actually going to realms was clearly an optional thing that he was doing on his own: just for kicks in the case of Cruella's realm, and to influence his "story" for the Charmings directly with the eggnapping fiasco.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

would it have been so hard to just insert a scene of her reuniting with her kid?

 

Yeah, Henry could have "drawn" Snow standing beside the crib with Blue looking on or something...

[Shanna Marie]

One thing that Henry being the Author may enable is that he shouldn't be stuck in our world in the case of another curse reversal. As Author, he seems to have some kind of free passage between worlds. Isaac was able to get to the Enchanted Forest from our world even when our world was still the World Without Magic. So if everyone gets sent back to the Enchanted Forest, they shouldn't have to worry about Henry being stuck behind.

 

Let's see if they remember this.

[InsertWordHere]

Mulan is not the only POC Disney princess - There's Jasmine.  Unless you mean on OUAT.  Since they haven't had Jasmine on the show, then never mind...

Yes, I meant on OUaT, that's why I also mentioned Rapunzel, who is not a POC in her film. Believe me, I haven't forgotten Jasmine, as I've been waiting for her to show up since OUaT in Wonderland introduced Jafar three years ago.

He's genuinely her friend and has been that for a long time. I think he's her best friend even though they don't show them tons together, but their friendship does exist. I'm down with that.

I remember being so happy when Grumpy showed up in Going Home as no one was comforting Belle, who was kneeling on the street sobbing. Rumple would probably kill Grumpy if he TLKed Belle, even if it's just platonic true love. 

 

Is Mulan a Disney Princess? Where does she get the title from? Her parents clearly aren't royalty and neither is Shang. Or is she just a Princess because she's a female protagonist in a Disney movie? How come Maid Marian doesn't get to be a princess too? (she's Foxy!).  How about Alice? Confused.

I don't know. I don't make the rules. From Wikipedia: The franchise does not, as its name might suggest, include all princess characters from the whole of Disney-owned media, but rather refers to specific characters from the company's animated films. As of 2015 the eleven characters considered part of the franchise are Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan, Tiana, Rapunzel and Merida.

Edited April 20, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[Slithy Toves]

That could be the start of a love story, but magic-level True Love? Shouldn't it go beyond mere physical attraction?

I can see how Ruby would be drawn to someone like Dorothy, physical attraction aside. Lots of people find partners with similar characteristics to their parents. Comfort in familiarity, I guess.

Dorothy seems a lot like Granny - gruff and grumpy surface covering a kind heart. Hell, she even has a crossbow.

[Mitch]

Can anyone explain to me why the author has to record everything that goes on in a weird CGI land? What is the point? Who picks what they are going to write about? I mean Snow arriving home to reunite with her baby is not exaclty momentus dragon slaying history..for anyone outside of Snow's circle. Also, he seems to be awake now when he wrote the chick on chick action for Gramps..right? I know I sat through the whole author thing last year but I never really understood it.

[Shanna Marie]

Looking at the list of Official Disney Princesses, I wonder if the choice of Dorothy over Mulan for Red's love interest has more to do with preserving the princess canon than qualms about a same-sex relationship. No matter how many twists they've thrown into the stories in this show, they've preserved the romantic outcomes for the princesses: Snow White and Cinderella are with their princes, Aurora is with Philip, Ariel is with Eric, Anna is with Kristoff, Belle is with her Beast, and Elsa and Merida are still unattached (until they likely get paired off in their planned sequels). The only exception of the ones they've introduced so far was Rapunzel, but that's a very well-known fairy tale and the Once Rapunzel was clearly not the Tangled Rapunzel because the casting was so different and her backstory was entirely different. With the other princesses, they've cast very close to their movie counterparts. So that may be why Belle isn't allowed to leave her Beast or end up with someone else, no matter how awful he is (and you've got to wonder if Disney came down on them after they made the Beast into Rumple, a villain, and that's where all this came from) and why Mulan can't end up with anyone other than Shang (though it could be possible to find out that Shang is also a girl in disguise). Mulan's not a story that's very well-known in the US outside the Disney version, so they can't even pull what they did with Rapunzel and make it really clear that it's not the Disney version.

 

I think a lot of my issues with what they've done with Red come down to how contrived the entire setup was. They let us know that while we weren't looking, two seasons ago Red abruptly decided that she was lonely (in spite of living near her grandmother and best friend) and felt like she was the only one like her (other than her grandmother), so she wanted to go looking for her pack (that she rejected in favor of her best friend and grandmother and that cast her out because she sided with the humans), and she needed to go to the Enchanted Forest to find her pack (although they were in the Enchanted Forest and therefore would have been sent to Storybrooke by the curse). To do this, she miraculously had a magic bean -- something so valuable that Hook had to give up his ship to get one. And in the past two seasons, no one has commented on or noticed Red's departure and absence, including Granny, who's prone to griping. Wouldn't she have commented on having to hire a replacement or do extra work once Red left? And then when Granny's was transported to Camelot, which is a day's walk from the Enchanted Forest, Granny doesn't think to look up her granddaughter, and then Red's hanging around with Merida, who was just in Camelot with everyone, and Red doesn't learn that her grandmother and best friend are a short boat ride away.

 

Then, to make it even more contrived, Red's somehow in Oz from following the scent of her pack through a portal. Does a scent travel through a portal? How did she find a portal? How did the pack get through a portal? Except they didn't, since she didn't find them in Oz, so what was she following? Even if she used that apparent transdimensional locator spell that also provides transportation, it wouldn't have worked to help her find her pack in Oz because they weren't there. There's an easy enough fix for that that would also have made the True Love thing work, if she used a locator spell to help her find what she was looking for, and she only thought it would lead her to her pack, but instead it led her to Dorothy.

 

Or they could have cut all the "looking for my pack" contrivance from the fall and not wasted Mulan's time to make her little more than set dressing and a bait-and-switch and just had this episode flash back a few days ago, with Ruby (who's been in Storybrooke all along, just working the odd shifts when we weren't visiting Granny's) deciding to head to Oz from Storybrooke to keep an eye on Zelena so she wouldn't be a threat to Storybrooke while everyone else was off in the Underworld, and that's when she ran into Dorothy.

[Curio]

I know I sat through the whole author thing last year but I never really understood it.

 

Don't worry, nobody here understands it either, even after writing numerous essays trying to understand it.

 

But you bring up a good point—now that Henry is apparently not sleep-writing and is consciously writing these stories, why the hell isn't he getting on with the Hades plan? Wasn't that the whole point of him writing in the Underworld to begin with? Or does he still not have any control over his writing even when he's awake?

[YaddaYadda]

Speaking of Authors, can an Author see in the past, and write the stories that have happened in the past, like Hades' story?

 

If Henry is supposed to write Hades' story, then he should be able to see his story in order to write it. He wasn't present when Ruby and Dorothy reunited, or when Snow arrives in Storybrooke, but he was able to write it. 

[Bishop]

Instead, she blamed Rumpel for "making" her do something she regrets and then abdicated all responsibility for anything that happens in the future by putting herself under the curse. She even explicitly told Rumpel to "do whatever it takes" to get her back to her father so that she could wake up. 

I was talking more about dumping another person into the River of Lost Souls and that she actually felt guilty about it whereas Gold never does.  That being said, the sleeping curse was stupid on her part, but that's how writers get pregnant actresses off screen quickly - even though a much more plausible storyline could have been created.

 

The real problem, to me, is that the writers didn't give me any reason to ship them. I mean, why would I want to see Red falling in love with someone as harsh and cranky as Dorothy? Poor Red! 

Exactly.  Does anyone ship Dorothy and Red considering they just met?  Whether you like the couples on OUAT or not, at least you can state that the relationships were allowed to evolve over time.  Charming and Snow, Regina and Robin, Belle and Gold, and certainly Emma and Hook.  Each has their shippers, but with Dorothy and Red, the writers gave us zero reason for ANYONE to ship them or even care about them in terms of Dorothy getting a TLK.  Just leave her there.  It's  not like she's developed this strong relationship with the Storybrooke characters.  It was SOO stupid to pair up Red and Dorothy.  Too stupid and utterly and completely contrived.

 

Charming staying at the Underworld could lead to more scenes with Hook and/or Emma, so I totally approve. Besides, he needs to meet his brother.

 

 

I was so happy when it was Charming who was staying behind.  Of all the main OUAT characters, Charming needs some time devoted to him by the writers, and so I'm looking forward to upcoming episodes - and yes, I want to see more scenes with him, Hook, and Emma too.

 

Belle's plan would be acceptable if we had proof that her dad really cares about her, but I think that's not the case, so...

 

 

This was the other dumb thing about Belle's plan because she's essentially putting herself to sleep, possibly forever, on the POSSIBILITY that maybe her father cares enough or can deliver TLK that is strong enough to break the spell.  This is why I blame the writers more than the character of Belle.  It was a rushed reason to get the actress off screen for maternity leave.

 

Yeah, I thought the setup could have been pretty sexy. Unfortunately they rushed the timeline - why couldn't they find a way to have them spend more than a day together?  And the actors just didn't have much chemistry.  I think they are both hot, though Dorothy isn't a great actor.  But they just don't click.  Charming and Hook had more chemistry in their one and a half minute talk.

All of this.  I don't think the two actresses had any chemistry at all, and zero time was devoted to them storywise.  It was epic fail.  I also agree that Charming and Hook displayed more character chemistry in their scene together than Red and Dorothy in the entire episode.

[myril]

I think a lot of my issues with what they've done with Red come down to how contrived the entire setup was. 

 

I have an elaborate story in my head that makes much of it work okay, a least most of Red's motivations and feelings, but you are right, on screen, the way they presented it, it comes across as rather contrived. It's not just leaving blanks, things happening off screen, but that the jumps they made in the story for Red cry for explanations to be believable, and some things just are illogical.

 

Yeah, I know, world building, that thing that seems to bore or annoy writers so often, but the moment magic gives me headaches and confuses me, like why are people suddenly where they are , and why can't they go back the same way, an ill build magical world takes me out of the magic of the story. And when then character moments are as ill developed and just magically appear, it gets worse. Doesn't mean the characters couldn't have come to that point in their development, have those feelings, changed views, whatever, just that it's dropped on us like the house dropped on the Witch of the East. 

 

I still enjoyed this Ruby episode and her falling for Dorothy a lot, but I feel more like a kid getting a new lego set of bricks, which I now nicely can integrate into my very own creation in my very own playroom, which though means I will not come back for a while to the big official toy shop OUaT, until they might have a new set for the Red edition that is. I don't care anymore about the rest of their product line. I don't even care that much anymore, how they set up their Red edition, I make my own thing of it.

 

Not sure if that is a good way to keep audience numbers.

 

Shouldn't think too much about their screen version though, it likely gets worse and not better with looking at any of the story elements and character jumps any closer.

 

Like how Red got to the Underworld. The sad attempt of an explanation made little to no sense. Red had that piece of fabric from Dorothy's dress with her, couldn't find Dorothy, didn't know at all what happened to her, but did a tracking spell to find Zelena to find out? How could she track Zelena with that, wouldn' she have needed something from Zelena, or could she use any item (my memory has become scetchy about some details, only remember they did a tracking spell before)? But any item doesn' make sense to me. And then what? Growl Zelena into telling her where Dorothy is? And what about getting back maybe, an emergency way out if need be, like preparing a locator spell to get back to Mulan. Okay, heroes on OUaT regularly are bad at planning, and the plans of the bad are so overly elaborated that they have to fail. And realm jumping seems to be as easy by now as taking the next tram, or at least for some people, and only when it's convenient. Although Underworld is not like the usually realms, right, but what kind of status does it have then?

 

I really better stop thinking about this episode and should puff away into my own fan fiction realms ;-)

[Mabinogia]

Red had that piece of fabric from Dorothy's dress with her, couldn't find Dorothy, didn't know at all what happened to her, but did a tracking spell to find Zelena to find out? How could she track Zelena with that, wouldn' she have needed something from Zelena

 

 

That's the part I still can't wrap my head around. Why couldn't she use the fabric to track Dorothy? How did she track Zelena? Why did she think Zelena was going to tell her where Dorothy is? Yes, I know she did find Dorothy through Zelena, but she had no reason to think that was going to work. It was just so sloppily written. I suppose I could get behind Red and Dorothy, (I mean, Dot has an affinity for dogs, that might appeal to Red) but I can't buy a love story if I'm too distracted trying to figure out WTF is going on in the story.

 

I admit I didn't pay that much attention because Dorothy bores me more than anyone they've had in a long time, I even preferred Merida, so I may have missed something but the whole story didn't make a damned bit of sense to me.

[YaddaYadda]

That's the part I still can't wrap my head around. Why couldn't she use the fabric to track Dorothy? How did she track Zelena? Why did she think Zelena was going to tell her where Dorothy is? Yes, I know she did find Dorothy through Zelena, but she had no reason to think that was going to work. It was just so sloppily written. I suppose I could get behind Red and Dorothy, (I mean, Dot has an affinity for dogs, that might appeal to Red) but I can't buy a love story if I'm too distracted trying to figure out WTF is going on in the story.

 

All you need to remember is that those shenanigans happened because they wanted the slippers to send Snow back to Storybrooke. That's the sole reason Ruby tracked Zelena instead of Dorothy. I doubt Ruby wouldn't have been able to track Dorothy in Oz, and looked everywhere for her. 

 

I thought the unbreakable curse was something entirely different from the sleeping curse, so I was hoping it was a state where Dorothy would be "dead" and in the Underworld because of that.

[myril]

Exactly.  Does anyone ship Dorothy and Red considering they just met?  Whether you like the couples on OUAT or not, at least you can state that the relationships were allowed to evolve over time.  Charming and Snow, Regina and Robin, Belle and Gold, and certainly Emma and Hook.  Each has their shippers, but with Dorothy and Red, the writers gave us zero reason for ANYONE to ship them or even care about them in terms of Dorothy getting a TLK.  Just leave her there.  It's  not like she's developed this strong relationship with the Storybrooke characters.  It was SOO stupid to pair up Red and Dorothy.  Too stupid and utterly and completely contrived.

 

I disagree, not just because I did see some chemistry working between Red and Dorothy. Different perception, some see no chemistry, others do, not the first pairing where that happens. I still don't get much of a chemistry between Belle and Rumple, not even after all this time, don't see any kind of positive relationship there though sure can come up with reasons for both, and I still think Rumple had more mutual understanding and chemistry with Cora then he ever will have with Belle. I never saw much of a chemistry between Regina and Robin either. Think the story of Robin and Regina  was rather contrived, based mostly on this silly fairy dust moment, they didn't show how they fell in love the first time, only how they rediscovered it, and it had a bit of a rushed and forced feeling. But even for Regina and Robin I can come up with reasons, and from my point of view, that is a lot harder than seeing what could connect Dorothy and Red.

If it had been first and foremost physical attraction those two would have looked at each other differently in my opinion. Didn't saw them eyeing each other as hot and sexy, it was more about reading each other's feelings and thoughts, moments of understanding.

 

Some of the reasons or hints given why Red and Dorothy might feel attracted and like finding finally the one soul able to understand the other were even a bit on the nose maybe, but they put some into the episode. One misunderstood and nearly locked up by family, the other misunderstood and feared and hunted out of the village by the village people, and wouldn't say that Granny was that much of help, keeping things from Red at first and practically locking her up to keep things under control. Both have not much of a connection with their parents, one raised by her grandmother, the other only believed by her Aunt Em. Granny and Aunt Em seemed to be of the same batch, resolute, practical, both ending up with diners. Dorothy's and Red's new homes and friends were threatened and devasted, one by Zelena, the other by Regina. Dorothy feels like she has failed unable to protect the Scaregrow, and Red obviously as well is struggling with herself and effects on others, she said something about that to Snow. And Red was struggling where to find someone to feel at home with. Snow is busy, Granny never really made peace with the wolf side. Not to mention it might still weigh on Red that she killed her boyfriend, more or less her own mother (she didn't mention that to Dorothy), and likely feels a bit responsible for the death of Gus. Red mused at some point, if maybe that first Dark Curse, being stuck in magic-less Storybrook without memory of who they were, was not so bad. We never learned much what happened with her during the lost year in the Enchanted Forest, but we do know she began to feel out of place when back in Storybrook. Out of place is something Dorothy knows as feeling, I think.

There is a lot to connect over between Dorothy and Red in my opinion. But it's more about something, that similar experience can help with but is even possible without. We are attracted to people who seem to get us, whose emotions we understand with some ease and who seem to understand us. That doesn't mean that a grumpy person always understands a grumpy person better, the point is more the ability to read the other's emotions, thinking that you get their feelings really good and they get yours. And a lot of that impression we even get already in the first seconds of meeting someone. I saw that happening between Dorothy and Red in this episode.

I agree there was a lot rushed, the plot surrounding their meeting and the TLK in the end was not well written and full of holes, but I don't find their relationship and love contrived.

 

I thought the unbreakable curse was something entirely different from the sleeping curse, so I was hoping it was a state where Dorothy would be "dead" and in the Underworld because of that.

It could have blended into the overall arc of this second half a lot better. Or they could have done a far better world building to begin with. There once was the Netherworld, that room with red burning curtains, where those in a sleeping curse seemed to be stuck, and where those who have experienced the sleeping curse could still get to in a dream, so they were able to communicate over realms - remember that, some fictional weeks back? I remember people discussing interesting theories, what the Netherworld was, how it was connected to other things, bringing it in connection with the Wraith. Maybe someone even thought of Dantes Inferno and the different circles. Was it already brought up in discussions here where all this is seeing now the Underworld, if there might be a connection? I mean, after all in Greek mythology Thanatos, daemon of death is the twin of Hypnos, sleep, the sons of Nyx (night) and Erebos (darkness).

 

Find some way to connect the Netherworld (Sleeping Dorothy) with the Underworld and both with the Wraith and all of it with finding the key to beat Hades and free all souls. Story with Dorothy still could start pretty much as it did, but Red and Mulan land in the Underworld tracking Zelena, and because of them and connecting with Dorothy they finally find the way to get at Hades. And somewhere in between can get the TLK for Red and Dorothy. Sketchy idea, but there could have been ways to do more with the characters. Although might have mean, that it could be material enough for a whole season and not just half a season arc.

 

So don't get why they don't make use of such things. Or wait, sort of get it, shiny toy syndrome. 

 

 

[KingOfHearts]

You know what would have been smart? If they used the silver slippers to take Pistachio and Robin somewhere safe. Since Hades needed to know where to direct the portal, they could go somewhere he wouldn't think of and they'd be in the clear.

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Technically, couldn't Snow just visit anytime now with the locator spells (for entry to Underworld) and silver slippers (for the flight out)?  Even if she has to make a layover in Oz, that wouldn't be too bad.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Camera One

[FormerMod-a1]

I liked Dorothy.  I didn't find her too gruff or grumpy.  I'd like her to be a semi-recurring character even.  (I'm not holding my breath on that one though).

[Olivia Y]

There is a lot to connect over between Dorothy and Red in my opinion. But it's more about something, that similar experience can help with but is even possible without. We are attracted to people who seem to get us, whose emotions we understand with some ease and who seem to understand us. 

The problem is that the writers - not sure whether it's laziness, incompetence or external constraints - don't /show/ any of that. That's the issue with a lot of these instant TL stories - the characters are saying 'I love you' but it's never shown /why/ they'd feel that way. Sure the audience can explore their backstories and theorise the 'why', but that really should be the writer's job.

[Camera One]

Why did Eriq La Salle randomly direct this episode?  Was there a story behind that?

[Mitch]

You know what would have been smart? If they used the silver slippers to take Pistachio and Robin somewhere safe. Since Hades needed to know where to direct the portal, they could go somewhere he wouldn't think of and they'd be in the clear.

This makes sense...if they went back to Storybrooke on the slipper express and then crossed the town line into the land without magic...Hades couldn't get at them.

 

Which reminds me, in this episode they have all the people waiting for the phone, are those people from our world or from their world? There don't seem to be enough people there to be from our world, and its almost like Hades created this pocket in the Underworld to mock Strorybrooke and the gang so its everyone connected to them, or from their world.  I would think that people who die from our world take the usual path and its only people from the goofy CGI worlds that go to Hades. That would be like Joe Smoe the grocer has Cruella for his UW mayor and he would be like.."Okay, this is a bad dream!" Right? Or am I thinking more about this then the writers?

[Shanna Marie]

Or am I thinking more about this then the writers?

Probably. But that's not too hard to do.

 

It doesn't even seem like enough people to cover everyone with unfinished business for all time, just from the various CGI worlds. How did they -- or could they? -- move on before the living showed up to help them with that? Did you hang around waiting for the other person you had unfinished business with to die, then work things out and move on? Or do only the family and friends of the Storybrooke gang get a chance to move on?

 

And it's not just people who died in Storybrooke or the Enchanted Forest who are there. Aunt Em was there, though apparently she's not from real world Kansas. She's from the World of Depression-Era Kansas-Like Farms.

[KingOfHearts]

 

This makes sense...if they went back to Storybrooke on the slipper express and then crossed the town line into the land without magic...Hades couldn't get at them.

They can't go through the town line without turning into trees, however I'm pretty sure the Silver Slippers are capable going to the Land Without Magic directly. Rumple wanted them for getting to Bae and in my head, Dorothy is from actual Kansas. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple wanted them for getting to Bae and in my head

 

That's the whole reason Rumple sent Robin to Oz in 4x16, to get him the slippers.

 

Rumple wearing those slippers with his outfit...I'd pay money to see that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's the whole reason Rumple sent Robin to Oz in 4x16, to get him the slippers.

Actually, Rumple sent Robin in 4x16 to get the Elixir of the Wounded Heart. However, he did send Jefferson to get the slippers in 2x05.

Edited April 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kingshearte]

I'm OK with Red-Dorothy in theory, but I do agree that the way it was presented made basically no sense. What it did do, by presenting a third lesbian character, was maybe stave off criticisms along the lines of "oh sure, the only two lesbians apparently in existence just happen to be into each other." This way, it's not just that any woman would do for Red; it had to be this woman. I think I'm reaching, but at least it's something to put in the plus column, maybe?

 

Also loved the Charming and Killian scene, and very much hope that the current setup gives us more of those two and more of Charming and Emma. But can I just say that I didn't love the super gender stereotypy reason why Charming decided to make the switch? When he was all "It should be her going home; she missed out on this with Emma," all I could think was SO DID YOU! These are your kids you're talking about too, and I just bristle at the notion that if only one parent can be with the kid (while the other has to work on saving the world, btw), that it has to be the mom. I realize that for practical, real-world reasons, it had to be her, but I wish that the reasoning for it didn't just dismiss the fact that Charming also missed all that stuff with Emma and that he presumably would also love to be back with his second child.

[Bishop]

 

I disagree, not just because I did see some chemistry working between Red and Dorothy. Different perception, some see no chemistry, others do, not the first pairing where that happens. 

Some of the reasons or hints given why Red and Dorothy might feel attracted and like finding finally the one soul able to understand the other were even a bit on the nose maybe, but they put some into the episode. 

I agree there was a lot rushed, the plot surrounding their meeting and the TLK in the end was not well written and full of holes, but I don't find their relationship and love contrived.

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because it was completely contrived for me because of one simple point:  It all happened in an hour.  None of the stuff you outlined was ever shown between these two characters.  It was more up to the audience to put the pieces together, but if it doesn't happen on screen for me, it's hard for me to feel nothing but that it was all contrived by the writers simply to add an LGBT kiss into their show.  Now if they had had Dorothy and Red connecting over episodes over the seasons, then I could be more on board with this, but they literally met, fell in love, and got TLK in less than 40 minutes (when you factor scenes with other characters and commercials).  

 

Why did Eriq La Salle randomly direct this episode?  Was there a story behind that?

From what I understand about directing televisions shows (and I could be wrong), directors don't pick their shows.  They go on a roster of sorts and end up with the shows they direct.  I recall reading when either Matthew Gubler or some other star was directing an episode, that it was "just good luck" that they landed the episode they were filming.  

 

Also loved the Charming and Killian scene, and very much hope that the current setup gives us more of those two and more of Charming and Emma. But can I just say that I didn't love the super gender stereotypy reason why Charming decided to make the switch? When he was all "It should be her going home; she missed out on this with Emma," all I could think was SO DID YOU! These are your kids you're talking about too, and I just bristle at the notion that if only one parent can be with the kid (while the other has to work on saving the world, btw), that it has to be the mom. I realize that for practical, real-world reasons, it had to be her, but I wish that the reasoning for it didn't just dismiss the fact that Charming also missed all that stuff with Emma and that he presumably would also love to be back with his second child.

I could agree with you if Charming hasn't been so woefully neglected.  I could even argue that the gender stereotypes on OUAT are in the reverse.  The woman do all the heroic stuff and the men are left behind to hold their wives purses.  Considering how much story and screen time Emma, Snow and Regina get, there is certainly no penchant by the writers to keep the woman folk safe at him.  So when I read that David was going to be sent back to Storybrooke to take care of Neal, I thought "Really?  Can't he ONCE get to stay and have an adventure?"  So I was thrilled with the unexpected switch, and although it's true that the stereotype is that the woman goes back to take care of the baby, it still rings true that the man would want his wife and child together and safe while he takes the risks.  That's just in their nature.  So overall, I was okay with it.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bishop

[YaddaYadda]

Also loved the Charming and Killian scene, and very much hope that the current setup gives us more of those two and more of Charming and Emma. But can I just say that I didn't love the super gender stereotypy reason why Charming decided to make the switch? When he was all "It should be her going home; she missed out on this with Emma," all I could think was SO DID YOU!

 

I sort of agree, and disagree with you.

 

I thought the whole David/Snow situation was a nice callback to when Snow was supposed to go with Emma to the Land without Magic (I know Snow was pregnant), and David was supposed to stay behind and be taken by the curse.

[Mabinogia]

I'm OK with Red-Dorothy in theory, but I do agree that the way it was presented made basically no sense. What it did do, by presenting a third lesbian character, was maybe stave off criticisms along the lines of "oh sure, the only two lesbians apparently in existence just happen to be into each other." This way, it's not just that any woman would do for Red; it had to be this woman. I think I'm reaching, but at least it's something to put in the plus column, maybe?

 

This I do appreciate. There does tend to be a lot of "well, this character is gay. Let us make another gay character so they can be together" on TV. But though Red and Mulan are both gay (at least it has been implied they are) and they were on an adventure together, they did not fall for each other. Instead a nearly unprecedented third lesbian was introduced. I'm just sad because in this particular case, for me, Red and Mulan had more natural chemistry. But I will appreciate that they didn't just stick the two lesbians together automatically. I do hope Mulan finds love though. I'm rather partial to her.

[Mari]

I sort of agree, and disagree with you.

 

I thought the whole David/Snow situation was a nice callback to when Snow was supposed to go with Emma to the Land without Magic (I know Snow was pregnant), and David was supposed to stay behind and be taken by the curse.

Plus, between Snow and David, David had the easier time connecting with the child they didn't have all those experiences with, once the family connection was revealed.

Snow took it much harder, and was much more invested in being "Mommy," to the point where her big Echo Cave secret was that she wanted a DoOver baby. David sacrificing his own time with Nealflake makes sense, for the two of them. He's more sure he'll still be able to connect with the baby.

[Shanna Marie]

What it did do, by presenting a third lesbian character, was maybe stave off criticisms along the lines of "oh sure, the only two lesbians apparently in existence just happen to be into each other."

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

[KingOfHearts]

Really, all of Red's plot development since 5x09 has been ridiculously contrived. First, she decided she wasn't happy and needed her pack. (Even after deciding she didn't in S2.) Then she found an ultra-rare magic bean. After that, she just so happened to wander into Dun'Broch, get turned into a wolf by a witch, then run into Mulan. Saddled with a warrior, she decided to help Merida for little reason. Later she and Mulan traveled to Oz somehow, fell in love with Dorothy after five minutes, and then got sucked into the Underworld via a tracking spell. Her story is very convoluted and, in my opinion, created for the sole purpose of being that way. It reeks of "Wouldn't it be crazy if..."

 

With all that in the background, it's hard to take her grand TLK scene seriously. They were on a CGI set with Munchkins, for goodness sake. If the writers don't take it seriously, how can we? How can you take something like an LGBT relationship, add so much silliness, then expect people to see it as a legitimate undertaking? Sometimes I don't think A&E realize what's in their scripts.

Edited April 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[AudienceofOne]

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

 

I don't remember there being any development in terms of establishing Red as same-sex attracted. And I am really tired of shows that have women (always women - never men) suddenly decide to have a lesbian relationship when they've never shown any interest in the same sex before. I don't see any male characters suddenly having a homosexual romance out of nowhere. I could touch on the reasons why but I might start ranting and that never looks good.

[blugirlami21]

I thought I was the only one confused by Red's sudden lesbianism. There were no indicators of it in her previous relationships. She was the town slut before the curse if I'm remembering correctly. Well according to granny anyway.

I just find it interesting that the writers chose her instead of Mulan who's actually been established to either actually be a lesbian or at least bisexual.

I'm guessing Jamie Chung's availability may have been a factor but they did a tlk storyline for Red in one episode so....

[Mabinogia]

Hmm, that's actually a good question. Why not Mulan and Dorothy? Did they think we'd be more invested if it was Red, who we knew from the beginning? Or do they have more planned for this story. (I kind of hope not because I am just not feeling Dorothy at all, but if they plan on keeping the Wicked Witch, maybe they wanted to keep Dorothy around for story reasons and went with Red because she has connections in Storybrooke while Mulan really doesn't.) I think Mulan and Dorothy could have worked.

 

I consider Red bisexual rather than a lesbian. It feels natural to the character who has amazing chemistry with both men and women. It works for me. So I have no problem with her falling for a woman. I'm just sad that woman was Dorothy who I have no interest in. Honestly, as much as I kind of love Zelena, the whole Oz storyline bores me. I love WoO but I'm just not into what OuaT has done with it.

 

Maybe it is the Red actress who doesn't have the availability and so they gave her her happy ending in case we never see her again, and are leaving Mulan open for a return? (a girl can hope)

[AudienceofOne]

I never said she wasn't bisexual. I said she'd never shown any same-sex attraction before that I'd seen. And this ongoing "women are all secretly bisexual" crap TV has been feeding us is annoying as hell.

 

But I said I wouldn't have that rant.

Edited April 22, 2016 by AudienceofOne

[Mabinogia]

I didn't mean to say you thought she wasn't bisexual. Just that it didn't come as a surprise to me in this particular case, mostly because the actress has great chemistry.

 

I completely agree with you about how shows push the all women are secretly bisexual, or at least we all want to experiment thing. That is male fantasy not reality.

 

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy. They have at least hinted at an interest in women in Mulan with the whole Aurora thing. So it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue. I'd love to know why they decided to use Red for this storyline.

[Camera One]

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy.

 

That pretty much says it all.  It was so undeveloped, it could practically have been anybody.  Merida and Dorothy.  Rapunzel and Mulan.  Red and the Blind Witch.  It just felt random.

[Mabinogia]

It was like a MadLibs relationship. Or maybe they used a dart board, Roulette. if it lands on red it's, well Red, if it lands on black it's Mulan Rapunzel. if it lands on the green zero it's no one and Dorothy dies.

 

The writers room must be a blast!

Edited April 22, 2016 by Mabinogia

[myril]

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

 

 

I don't remember there being any development in terms of establishing Red as same-sex attracted. And I am really tired of shows that have women (always women - never men) suddenly decide to have a lesbian relationship when they've never shown any interest in the same sex before. I don't see any male characters suddenly having a homosexual romance out of nowhere. I could touch on the reasons why but I might start ranting and that never looks good.

 

 

I thought I was the only one confused by Red's sudden lesbianism. There were no indicators of it in her previous relationships. She was the town slut before the curse if I'm remembering correctly. Well according to granny anyway.

 

 

I never said she wasn't bisexual. I said she'd never shown any same-sex attraction before that I'd seen. And this ongoing "women are all secretly bisexual" crap TV has been feeding us is annoying as hell.

 

 

I completely agree with you about how shows push the all women are secretly bisexual, or at least we all want to experiment thing. That is male fantasy not reality.

 

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy. They have at least hinted at an interest in women in Mulan with the whole Aurora thing. So it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue. I'd love to know why they decided to use Red for this storyline.

 

 

That pretty much says it all.  It was so undeveloped, it could practically have been anybody.  Merida and Dorothy.  Rapunzel and Mulan.  Red and the Blind Witch.  It just felt random.

Taking this to the Relationship thread. And yes, all of the quoted. Prepare for a longer answer.

 

[darkestboy]

You know what? I don't mind Ruby/Dorothy. While I do think it should've been built up better and that once again poor Mulan got friendzoned, it was actually rather sweet though.

 

Hades's method of getting rid of Aunt Em was brutal. I do like him and Zelena as it does feel genuinely unpredictable in some respects. She may end up becoming his whole undoing though.

 

Snow going back to Storybrooke and Belle taking the sleeping curse was a way to write out the actresses for the time being.

 

The Oz scenes were great, liked David/Hook together and Cruella had a nice one liner or two, 8/10

[Notwisconsin]

Considering that Dodge City is in Kansas, wouldn't it have been better if Dorothy had been wearing western gear and sporting a couple of six-shooters instead of pseudo-medieval leatherwear and a crossbow?

[PixiePaws1]

that little dog playing Toto and his seriously off the charts levels of cuteness ....i think it's True Love for me!

[DrLar]

Just watched, 'cause I saw Ruby in the title and of course Meghan would be back, too bad, I thought she had a Boyfriend and all (she killed him LOL), I guess in MagicLand you can become gay all of the sudden, not only that but Dorothy also, well we didn't know her any boyfriends or love interests before.

Well considering Hades fell in love with Zelena in a bike ride anything could happen.

[Serena]

16 minutes ago, DrLar said:

Just watched, 'cause I saw Ruby in the title and of course Meghan would be back, too bad, I thought she had a Boyfriend and all (she killed him LOL), I guess in MagicLand you can become gay all of the sudden

Or you can even be bisexual! Like in the real world.