The Star Wars Saga

[absnow54]

17 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The leadership of the Rebels/Resistance always being portrayed as good people is just too boring and predictable, if they don't break away from this lame Fights Space Nazis = Good dynamic, the franchise will never grow.

I'm sure there are very fine people on both sides...

I do think the prequel trilogy tried to do this. Hell, the good guys were fighting FOR the Empire! The Jedi were so stubbornly set in their ways that they helped create Darth Vader! Our big hero from the first trilogy turned into our big villain in the next! So yes, there are ways to introduce complexities to our heroes, but, um, in my opinion, not in the way you proposed. 

[ursula]

@absnow54 not to speak for someone else but I feel @Perfect Xero is being ironic and the point of the post was to show the ridiculousness of claiming that Rian's story is better just because it was "unpredictable".

[VCRTracking]

Moved video to TLJ thread.

Edited June 19, 2018 by VCRTracking

[absnow54]

6 hours ago, ursula said:

@absnow54 not to speak for someone else but I feel @Perfect Xero is being ironic and the point of the post was to show the ridiculousness of claiming that Rian's story is better just because it was "unpredictable".

Haha, I figured, but I do think moral ambiguity in heroes is a worthy topic for discussion!

[VCRTracking]

Exclusive: Future ‘A Star Wars Story’ Spinoffs on Hold at Lucasfilm

[afterbite]

I was at least moderately interested in an Obi-Wan film, but I also think that maybe they should put a hold on all SW related projects after Ep IX. I'm not talking about another decade-long hiatus, but I think they could use at least a couple of years. There's so much divisiveness around SW properties at the moment. It feels like they're in danger of falling down the DCEU well, where people start disgruntled and end up actively loathing. Maybe Ep IX will restore peaceful zen to the fandom, but I just don't see that happening. A few years (at least) could act as a palette cleanser.

I know we've been caught up in the franchise game for a while when it comes to movie releases, but there just seem to be so many right now. This may also be a problem. Disney was talking about and/or actively moving toward at least one if not two anthology films (Boba Fett and Obi-Wan), a trilogy from Rian Johnson, and a trilogy from the Game of Thrones guys. (I can't recall if these 2 trilogies include the planned trilogy that's supposed to follow 7/8/9.) That's... a lot of movies.

Edited June 20, 2018 by afterbite

[stealinghome]

Hm. I do think Lucasfilm runs the risk of over-saturating the market, and so in general I think it's wise to slow their roll a little bit--doing an annual release every year, or every other year even, at the Christmas season would be more than enough (it was stupid to put Solo in May and I think they definitely should not do more than one a year). I think they also have to realize that TFA particularly did so well because of pent-up demand for a good Star Wars film, and that the more films they put out, the less box office records they will break.

More than anything, though, what the people at Lucasfilm need to do is get their shit together with directors and scripts--basically the BTS shenanigans. I don't know who has been hiring directors, but when the directors of 3 of the first 5 films you put out get fired/removed from the project, or put together something that requires someone else to come in and massively reshoot, you're clearly not hiring the right people for the job--so figure out what you're doing wrong in the hiring process, and then hire the right people. Moreover, imo there needs to be a Big Picture plan for, if not the universe, at least the trilogies. TLJ has been divisive in part because--by Lucasfilm's own admission--they didn't have a larger story and let Johnson do what he wanted, which didn't necessarily line up with what Abrams established in TLJ. So, have a plan creatively. Don't let directors wing it (until you get sick of them winging it and fire them), and consider making directors sign 2- or 3-contract deals for the trilogies. Etc.

[benteen]

Agreed.  If Kathleen Kennedy has to take responsibility for anything, it's her choice of directors.  We've had two sets of directors who were canned and replaced.  We had the massive reshoots for Rogue One (which in fairness turned out to work great).  We had Rian Johnson who basically decided to subvert the entire sequel trilogy just for the sake of subverting.  Now we have the return of JJ Abrams.  He might be good on television but as a feature film director, he has very little creativity at all.  He directs sequels and reboots that are filled with plot holes, cheat codes (Rey becoming an instant Jedi) and "homages" to much better work.  The one "original' movie that he did was Super 8, an homage to the old Spielberg movies that didn't do well in the box office.  The homage to the 80s was done much better by Stranger Things.

Disney of course deserves responsibility for overextending Star Wars (Star Wars is not the MCU) and for their constant interference.  But an actual plan (which also could have prevented Rian Johnson's freelancing of The Force Awakens plot points) and better choices for directors would go a long way into fixing stuff.  You're 100% right that LFL didn't have a larger story plan for the sequel, stealinghome and as a result Johnson was allowed to run wild and destroy any plot points that were established in TFA.

[Joe]

Quote

Johnson was allowed to run wild and destroy any plot points that were established in TFA.

From what I heard, JJ didn't leave any notes or plans or anything for Johnson to follow. Besides, he was an executive producer on TLJ. He could have said or done something. A lot of people could. Johnson wasn't acting with full autonomy.

And until there's official word from Lucasfilm, this is just another rumour.

[benteen]

That's probably true about JJ.  There should have been a long-term plan for this trilogy and that faults like with Disney and LFL.  JJ decided to get cute with his mysteries and Rian Johnson was allow to blow everything up.  That's a lack of organizational control.

[VCRTracking]

I want to live in this world where the sequels in a franchise not based on a book series have always been planned the same time as the first movie is written. Are there unicorns there?

[Silver Raven]

Somebody on Twitter is calling for a compete remake of The Last Jedi, and Rian Johnson is supporting them.  WTH?

[WritinMan]

23 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Moreover, imo there needs to be a Big Picture plan for, if not the universe, at least the trilogies. TLJ has been divisive in part because--by Lucasfilm's own admission--they didn't have a larger story and let Johnson do what he wanted, which didn't necessarily line up with what Abrams established in TLJ. So, have a plan creatively.

Agreed. The fact that there was no clearly defined plan--or apparently even an outline--for the new trilogy (and a major franchise) is truly shocking.

Edited June 21, 2018 by WritinMan

[Fukui San]

10 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

Somebody on Twitter is calling for a compete remake of The Last Jedi, and Rian Johnson is supporting them.  WTH?

I believe Johnson is supporting the idea facetiously, as in "yes, let the annoying, toxic fanboys try to remake The Last Jedi and see how big of a fiasco it becomes".

[Perfect Xero]

Unsurprisingly the guy who made The Last Jedi is good at trolling people.

It should be said that, at best, the people doing this are delusional. At worst this is a direct scam to get money from people. Most likely this is the tactic of saying something outrageous (knowing you can never follow through) to draw attention and raise your own reach/notoriety so you can indirectly profit off it. So everyone, including Rian, talking about it just giving them exactly what they want.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[stealinghome]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I want to live in this world where the sequels in a franchise not based on a book series have always been planned the same time as the first movie is written. Are there unicorns there?

Is it really that crazy to say that “gee, if you’re going to make a trilogy, you should know where the story is going”? To me that just seems like, you know, a responsible and logical position to take. 

[WritinMan]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I want to live in this world where the sequels in a franchise not based on a book series have always been planned the same time as the first movie is written. Are there unicorns there?

It's based on an existing franchise. It's not a new thing. They knew they were going to make a new trilogy, but it seems completely out of place to you that they should make a plan for the movies?

Edited June 21, 2018 by WritinMan
Add stuff!

[afterbite]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I want to live in this world where the sequels in a franchise not based on a book series have always been planned the same time as the first movie is written. Are there unicorns there?

I don't quite understand this line of thinking. I tried to think of franchises like this. I thought of a couple:

Terminator: The first movie was released in 1984. The second was released in 1991. The third was released in 2003. That's ample time to craft a story that builds on the one before it.

The Fast and the Furious: These have a very loosely connected storyline, but aren't necessarily designed to hang together. The theme is pretty simplistic - family, fast cars. Each is fairly self-contained, also. I wouldn't put it in the same category as Star Wars.

The Hangover: Pretty much the same as The Fast and the Furious. Self-contained.

Indiana Jones: Same director across all. First one was in 1981. Second one was in 1984. Third was in 1989. Again, self-contained stories for the most part.

Etc, etc. In general, these movies don't set up stories that have to span multiple installments to be told. SW does, because it sets itself up that way. It decides it's going to be a trilogy at the outset. For that reason alone, there should be a storyline that actually describes what's going to happen across three movies. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by afterbite

[Perfect Xero]

Most film series not based on extremely popular book series aren't initially planned out as series/trilogies because they have no idea if the first movie will do well enough to deserve a sequel.

The Star Wars NT is the rare case of something that was planned and announced as a trilogy before the first frame was shot.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, afterbite said:

I don't quite understand this line of thinking. I tried to think of franchises like this. I thought of a couple:

Terminator: The first movie was released in 1984. The second was released in 1991. The third was released in 2003. That's ample time to craft a story that builds on the one before it.

The Fast and the Furious: These have a very loosely connected storyline, but aren't necessarily designed to hang together. The theme is pretty simplistic - family, fast cars. Each is fairly self-contained, also. I wouldn't put it in the same category as Star Wars.

The Hangover: Pretty much the same as The Fast and the Furious. Self-contained.

Indiana Jones: Same director across all. First one was in 1981. Second one was in 1984. Third was in 1989. Again, self-contained stories for the most part.

Etc, etc. In general, these movies don't set up stories that have to span multiple installments to be told. SW does, because it sets itself up that way. It decides it's going to be a trilogy at the outset. For that reason alone, there should be a storyline that actually describes what's going to happen across three movies. 

 

The original trilogy wasn't even set up that way! Lucas didn't know Darth Vader was Luke's father when he made the first Star Wars movie and he didn't know Leia was Luke's sister when Empire Strikes Back was made. They also didn't flow together either. They each had very different tones.

Poe was originally going to die early in The Force Awakens but Abrams liked Oscar Isaac so he lived. Finn and Rey were going to have a more contentious relationship initially but when Harrison Ford broke his leg on the set and they had to halt shooting for a couple of weeks Abrams realized it was  to have them be friendly and respectful. That was important because it made Rey finding out he lied to her about being with the Resistance and that he was running away have more impact. It would never have happened if Ford hadn't accidentally broke his leg!

All you need for a trilogy or three act play as George M. Cohan stated:
"All stories have three acts. In the first, put your hero up a tree. In the second, throw rocks at the hero. In the third, get the hero out of the tree."

The irony is the one thing they did plan was the first movie would center on Han, the second one on Luke and the third was supposed to be about Leia. They couldn't have foreseen Carrie dying so they okayed putting Leia in a coma for the second movie because she was going to dominate the last one.

Edited June 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[afterbite]

@VCRTracking The thing is, this has always been a trilogy. Do they have to be set in stone? No. You can make modifications, like keeping Poe or changing the tenor of Rey and Finn's relationship. What you'll never be able to convince me of (and what I sincerely doubt I'll be able to convince you of in return) is that not having a plan was acceptable. There needs to be a storybook, and I just don't think there is one. Without that, what you get is what a lot of people see as a really shoddy narrative.

The thing that gets lost behind all of the butthurt fanboys who can't seem to make a comment without throwing in 'SJW' or 'agenda' or 'fire Kathleen' and who make themselves painfully known on most forums (though thankfully not this one) is that this lack of planning has taken what seemed to be a sure-fire symbiotic relationship and put it in serious jeopardy for fans of all stripes. Fans wanted more Star Wars and LucasFilm/Disney wanted to provide more Star Wars in return for armadas of cash. "Fanboys" make wild claims about the supposed "fanboy" boycott that tanked Solo, but what I suspect actually happened was that TLJ tarnished the brand among a surprisingly wide swath of fans. This is not universally true, of course, but my anecdata shows that people who like SW for diverse reasons were all equally disappointed. Enthusiasm dimmed. Solo wasn't helped by a host of other factors, but TLJ opened that fissure. The 2nd week drop for TLJ was massive, and I imagine that aside from word of mouth, a lot of that was because people weren't going to see it again. I can only speak for myself - I saw Rogue One in theaters 3 times. I saw TFA in theaters at least twice, but maybe three times. I saw half of TLJ and already knew I wouldn't be seeing it again. I saw Solo because I have MoviePass.

I might reserve judgment on TLJ if there seemed to be any hint that there was a cohesive, master plan in place and that what we saw would have a satisfying pay-off in the next film. There's nothing to indicate that, though, and so I have significantly diminished hopes. I'm not going to buy an advance ticket for Ep 9 as soon as it goes on sale, like I did for TFA and TLJ, because I have scant hopes for the trilogy at this point.

I liked the Porgs. I'll give them that. I can't give them much else, though.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, afterbite said:

@VCRTracking The thing is, this has always been a trilogy. Do they have to be set in stone? No. You can make modifications, like keeping Poe or changing the tenor of Rey and Finn's relationship. What you'll never be able to convince me of (and what I sincerely doubt I'll be able to convince you of in return) is that not having a plan was acceptable. There needs to be a storybook, and I just don't think there is one. Without that, what you get is what a lot of people see as a really shoddy narrative.

So they write a storybook. I guess they should have put in: "'Luke is the same as he was when we last saw him in Return of the Jedi', 'Rey must ALWAYS hate Kylo Ren' and 'The good guys never fuck up'"?

I like Finn and I liked Rose but even before they set foot on Canto Bight there storyline was always going to be a drag compared to Rey and Luke's because it had been anticipated for two years since the end of The Force Awakens. In that movie though Finn had the most interesting arc. He's the stormtrooper with a conscience who ran away from the First Order. There is a question throughout the movie 'Who will be the hero of this new trilogy? Finn or Rey?" Once the lightsaber flies into Rey's hand with the Force theme playing and she actually beats the main villain it's clear Rey is the "Luke" of the sequels. In the end Finn is in a coma while she goes off to find Luke Skywalker and deliver his old lightsaber to him. So now we get to The Last Jedi where we now know Finn isn't the main hero and probably doesn't have Force abilities. He's not a cool smuggler like Han or gambler/con man like Lando or great pilot like Poe so seeing him on his own adventure is just following this regular guy around. Meanwhile the hero of the movie is learning about the Force from a legend and also uncovering deep dark secrets about the past!

The lesson to learn from Solo is six months is too short of a time between Star Wars movies. I don't care whether TLJ disappointed some people or not, a Star Wars movie needs to be out of most people's minds for a while for them to get excited for the next one.

Edited June 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

I actually disagree somewhat with Afterbite and VCRTracking. I loved TLJ, but found Solo underwhelming and annoying. The style of humour didn't appeal to me, and all the callbacks/callforwards unnecessary. Though I'd be excited about another SW movie coming out tomorrow, if it looked good. But I realise I'm probably an outlier. :)

[Wickedeve]

Quote

 I'm not going to buy an advance ticket for Ep 9 as soon as it goes on sale, like I did for TFA and TLJ, because I have scant hopes for the trilogy at this point.

ITA -- and, even worse, I'm going to actively be looking for spoilers before even considering buying a ticket. That's *not* how I operate with movies. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would trade the wonderful surprise of seeing a movie unspoiled for avoiding the frustration of sitting through another TLJ.

I hate that I feel this way, but I'm only being honest.

[benteen]

I'd like a planned trilogy to have a plan as its being developed.  Now, a writer/director should have the option of changing stuff as it goes along.  You need that flexibility.  But if you're going to be make a trilogy of movies, a connected and shared one, LFL should have known what kind of story they wanted to tell.

JJ likes to be cute and set up all of these mysteries.  Because there was no set plan, that allowed Rian Johnson to subvert those decisions just for the sake of subverting them.  That's piss-poor moviemaking. 

[Browncoat]

I will still buy my advance ticket, and I will likely enjoy the ride, just like I did with TFA, TLJ, Rogue One and Solo.  They all evoke the OT for me, though it probably helps that I never got into the EU. 

[Katsullivan]

20 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I want to live in this world where the sequels in a franchise not based on a book series have always been planned the same time as the first movie is written. Are there unicorns there?

So.... Disney paid $4, 000, 000, 000.00 to Lucas for the rights to Star Wars to do what? Make one movie and sell toys?

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

So.... Disney paid $4, 000, 000, 000.00 to Lucas for the rights to Star Wars to do what? Make one movie and sell toys?

No...... concentrate on making the first movie and making sure that movie is a hit before moving on to the other sequels. Lucas did give them his ideas for the trilogy but they looked at his idea for episode 7 realized a movie where Luke is bitter and disillusioned and secluding himself off in an ancient temple, reluctantly teaching a female student was going to be a tough sell(and they ended up proven right) so they saved it for the second movie and decided to introduce the new female character in the first movie.

Lucas revealed last week his version of the sequel trilogy would have delved into "microbiology" and the long-fabled "Whills".

George Lucas' Sequel Trilogy Plans Involved Creatures That "Feed On The Force"

As someone who didn't mind the midichlorians I would have been interested in this new aspect of the Force and Whills, sub atomic creatures "that control the universe" but I know I'm definitely in the minority for that one!

3 hours ago, benteen said:

JJ likes to be cute and set up all of these mysteries.  Because there was no set plan, that allowed Rian Johnson to subvert those decisions just for the sake of subverting them.  That's piss-poor moviemaking.

JJ also likes to both fix franchises  by bringing them back to their roots while building on other people's work so I'm sure about  Episode IX will be more of a crowdpleaser.

Everyone else probably had their own theories of why Luke disappeared in Episode 7. My thoughts were he obviously went there to find a way to defeat Snoke and the First Order. There was a solution there for Luke to get the power. That was the only reason I could think of where Luke could still be the heroic figure we remember. After that was proven wrong did I realize how stupid that idea was. Like why then didn't Obi-Wan or Yoda go to Ach-to when the Emperor was alive? The only other reason was to hide and Johnson himself said he didn't want Luke to be a coward.  Also why didn't Luke sense Han was in danger like he did in Empire Strikes Back and the only possible reason was he cut himself off from the Force. The explanations to this were never going to be pleasant.

Johnson didn't subvert anybody's decisions. He took what was given to him and logically extrapolated and worked out the reasons why even though they weren't what fans would have liked.

3 hours ago, Wickedeve said:

ITA -- and, even worse, I'm going to actively be looking for spoilers before even considering buying a ticket. That's *not* how I operate with movies. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would trade the wonderful surprise of seeing a movie unspoiled for avoiding the frustration of sitting through another TLJ.

I hate that I feel this way, but I'm only being honest.

So out of curiosity, what would be in the spoilers will make you stay away and what would make you excited again?

Edited June 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

2 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

The only other reason was to hide and Johnson himself said he didn't want Luke to be a coward.

Luke betrayed everyone who ever cared about him and everything he ever stood for, but at least he wasn't a coward. Whew! Except that his actions were incredibly cowardly, so Missions Failed, Rian.

Quote

  Also why didn't Luke sense Han was in danger like he did in Empire Strikes Back and the only possible reason was he cut himself off from the Force.

There was absolutely no reason to think that he didn't sense that Han was in danger.

Quote

Luke truly believed he and the Jedi were doing more harm to the galaxy and that the Jedi needed to end.

Ah yes, Snoke, an evil force user with no connection to the Jedi who is incredibly old rises up and takes children as slaves and kills billions of people, and Luke comes to the conclusion that the Jedi are the problem. That makes perfect sense. Luke is total moron, but at least he isn't a coward. Except that he was a coward.

Quote

Johnson didn't subvert anybody's decisions. He took what was given to him and logically extrapolated and worked out the reasons why even though they weren't what fans would have liked.

He started with a flawed premise and then ignored any and everything that didn't justify his premise.

[VCRTracking]

19 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

There was absolutely no reason to think that he didn't sense that Han was in danger.

Other than Luke not preventing it.

I hope someone else is going to offer their own ideas of what Luke was doing on the island that could've been better for him instead of warping and twisting the actual solution. A solution which although not ideal at least shows he is human with understandable failings and makes mistakes based on guilt and shame which anybody should relate to.  I personally don't think I'm ever going to get a better answer but just hear more "Johnson shouldn't have done it!" The movie doesn't endorse his decision and Luke realizes later he was wrong. Some people have emotional responses to trauma that aren't the best. Like seeing a video of their mother being choked to death and immediately wanting to kill the person who did it standing next to him, no matter if he was brainwashed or not. * Doesn't make them evil, just human.

 

 

* MCU reference.

Edited June 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

34 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Other than Luke y'know not preventing it.

 

 

As we see in TLJ itself, his ship crashed and the power to magically project yourself across the galaxy didn't exist yet in TFA.

 

34 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I hope someone else is going to offer their own ideas of what Luke was doing on the island and instead warping and twisting the actual solution. Luke is shown as a human who has real failings and makes mistakes. The movie doesn't endorse this decision and Luke realizes later he was wrong. People have emotional responses to trauma that aren't the best. Like seeing a video of their mother being choked to death and immediately wanting to kill the person who did it standing next to him, no matter if he was brainwashed or not.

A few Ideas for better options than what we got:

1. The Teacher: Some of Luke's young students survived so he took them to a hidden planet that is strong in the force to protect them from Snoke's influence until he could complete their training.

OR

2. The Hostage: Luke believes that Kylo Ren can still be saved but knows that Snoke will not hesitate to kill his nephew if he confronts them, so he remains hidden because (get this) Luke Skywalker isn't ready to give up on his nephew. Rey is the one actually convincing Luke that Ben is too far gone to be saved.

OR

2. b. Snoke and Ben kidnapped Luke's young child from the temple, Luke is in hiding because his child is a hostage who will be killed if he confronts Snoke. Is it Rey? Finn? Hux? One of those dudes in Red?

3. The pilgrimage: Luke went searching for some ancient knowledge about the identity of Snoke and the Knights of Ren (remember them?) or the Jedi, but energy doesn't work the same way on island planet, so his ship won't work and he's stuck.

4. The trick: Luke actually did confront Kylo Ren and Snoke and thought he'd defeated them (but it turns out that Snoke used some sort of clones or force power to trick him), so he went into hiding for much the same reasons he does in the actual TLJ movie, except in this version he's mourning as he believes he killed his nephew, and he thinks that he's wiped out the most powerful dark force users, so he's not abandoning everyone else to try to fight the evil space wizards without his help, and his thinking that removing himself will end the Jedi/Sith "cycle" actually makes some sense.

5. The Sixth Sense: Luke is actually already dead (which is legit what I thought they were revealing for a second when Kylo's saber went through him). Something about the island hes on is keeping his spirit stuck there in a sort of Limbo. Maybe Luke doesn't even know he dead.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[VCRTracking]

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

As we see in TLJ itself, his ship crashed and the power to magically project yourself across the galaxy didn't exist yet in TFA.

Contact Leia telepathically to either send a ship or save Han.

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

1. The Teacher: Some of Luke's young students survived so he took them to a hidden planet that is strong in the force to protect them from Snoke's influence until he could complete their training.

Luke having other students being alive and not turn to the Dark Side Why do they need Rey?

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

2. The Hostage: Luke believes that Kylo Ren can still be saved but knows that Snoke will not hesitate to kill his nephew if he confronts them, so he remains hidden because (get this) Luke Skywalker isn't ready to give up on his nephew. Rey is the one actually convincing Luke that Ben is too far gone to be saved.

OR

2. b. Snoke and Ben kidnapped Luke's young child from the temple, Luke is in hiding because his child is a hostage who will be killed if he confronts Snoke. Is it Rey? Finn? Hux? One of those dudes in Red?

"This girl I've never met before convinced me that my nephew can't be saved when Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't convince me my father couldn't" Seems legit.

Also Luke having a kid should've been mentioned by either Leia or Han and even Kylo and Snoke.

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

3. The pilgrimage: Luke went searching for some ancient knowledge about the identity of Snoke and the Knights of Ren (remember them?) or the Jedi, but energy doesn't work the same way on island planet, so his ship won't work and he's stuck.

Again, he can telepathically contact Leia to send a ship.

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

4. The trick: Luke actually did confront Kylo Ren and Snoke and thought he'd defeated them (but it turns out that Snoke used some sort of clones or force power to trick him), so he went into hiding for much the same reasons he does in the actual TLJ movie, except in this version he's mourning as he believes he killed his nephew, and he thinks that he's wiped out the most powerful dark force users, so he's not abandoning everyone else to try to fight the evil space wizards without his help, and his thinking that removing himself will end the Jedi/Sith "cycle" actually makes some sense.

Luke actually mourning his nephew so bad he hides on an island but when he finds out he's still alive he's going to train this girl to finish the job? "Good luck and make sure he's really dead!"

29 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

5. The Sixth Sense: Luke is actually already dead (which is legit what I thought they were revealing for a second when Kylo's saber went through him). Something about the island hes on is keeping his spirit stuck there in a sort of Limbo. Maybe Luke doesn't even know he dead.

Why is his spirit on on the island? Did he die there? Did the fish nuns kill him? Was he attacked by Porgs? Now that death would have pleased fans!

Did I want to see Luke being awesome and kicking ass? Sure, but seeing how he is in TLJ didn't bother me. Finding out the reasons I get it. Luke held himself to a high standard as much as the fans did. Despite what some believe, people who are suicidal don't consider it "selfish" to want to take their own life. They get into such a low mindset to think that their loved ones would truly be better off without them and they need understanding to convince them they're wrong.

Edited June 22, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Wickedeve]

Quote

So out of curiosity, what would be in the spoilers will make you stay away and what would make you excited again?

(Don't worry, everyone--I'm not going to go into any spoilers here!) 

Hey, VCRTracking ... I'm trying to think of how I can carefully address this subject, because, due to my disappointment with TLJ, I've already started my spoiler hunt and I was exposed to some supposed spoilers already from a supposed decent source. Before I buy a ticket to Episode 9, I need to see if what I heard will really happen. Who knows if these spoilers are true, but they turned me off to the point where I feel as if I need to protect my eyes if, dear heavens, they're on target.

 

As for what would make me excited again? That's a tough one. I've been lurking here for the excellent conversations, so I know that several posters have already pointed out that the ending of eppie 8 lacks momentum for them. I agree. I think seeing Kylo Ren go FULL-ON AWESOME baddie would be satisfying for me. (If he doesn't, there's a huge baddie vacuum because Hux is a clown and ... who else is there? I guess they could bring Snoke back, but that somehow feels cheap. Have we ever had a bad Force ghost onscreen? Is it possible?) I would also like to see Rey struggle with the Force, because if it's evolving into something else, there should be issues with that. Wouldn't it be kind of fun if the Force turned out to be more powerful than she can handle and she was only lured into thinking she has it under control--and so quickly?

 

I would also love for Finn's background as a kid who was raised to serve the First Order to REALLY come into play. He has such a fantastic backstory.

 

edited to add that I need to see The Knights of Ren, too!

Edited June 23, 2018 by Wickedeve
slight brain malfuction

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

No...... concentrate on making the first movie and making sure that movie is a hit before moving on to the other sequels.

I would like to live in a world where film franchises are bought for $ 4, 000, 000, 000.00 dollars to make "wait and see" movies.  Are there unicorns there?

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Contact Leia telepathically to either send a ship or save Han.
 

No Jedi had ever shown the ability to telepathically communicate over anything close to interstellar distances in the films that I can recall, at least prior to The Last Jedi's Force projection contrivance to make it's plot work. There's a reason that Palpatine, Vader, and Snoke are always using holographic projectors and video calls to talk to their underlings. The longest range telepathy I can recall is when everyone was on Bespin or when Luke and Vader were on Endor.

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Luke having other students being alive and not turn to the Dark Side Why do they need Rey?

Why wouldn't they? Like, they can have more than one good young force user running around.

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"This girl I've never met before convinced me that my nephew can't be saved when Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't convince me my father couldn't" Seems legit.

Who says that she'd succeed? And since the last time he saw Ben, Kylo has killed a few billion people, including his father.

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Also Luke having a kid should've been mentioned by either Leia or Han and even Kylo and Snoke.

A Star Wars film obfuscating the parentage of a Skywalker child? Never!

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Luke actually mourning his nephew so bad he hides on an island but when he finds out he's still alive he's going to train this girl to finish the job? "Good luck and make sure he's really dead!"

Yes, if Luke has already decided that Kylo Ren is irredeemable and must be stopped, why wouldn't he finish the task when he found out that he'd been tricked?

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Why is his spirit on on the island? Did he die there? Did the fish nuns kill him? Was he attacked by Porgs? Now that death would have pleased fans!

You asked for alternatives to Rian's only possible logical conclusion to Luke's absence, and Luke being dead is one of them. It speaks to how poorly Luke Skywalker was portrayed in TLJ that him being dead is a happy alternative, but here we are.

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Did I want to see Luke being awesome and kicking ass? Sure, but seeing how he is in TLJ didn't bother me. Finding out the reasons I get it. Luke held himself to a high standard as much as the fans did. Despite what some believe, people who are suicidal don't consider it "selfish" to want to take their own life. They get into such a low mindset to think that their loved ones would truly be better off without them and they need understanding to convince them they're wrong.

I've suffered through depression at various points in my own life, been suicidal at my darkest moments, which is probably a big part of the reason that I had such a strong negative reaction to Luke in TLJ.

For that reason I haven't really felt comfortable talking about this aspect of it, but the movie literally ends with Luke committing a romanticized suicide, which protects his family and preserves the image of Luke as a hero that he projects to salt planet.

Star Wars The Last Jedi, Suicide IS the Answer.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

No Jedi had ever shown the ability to telepathically communicate over anything close to interstellar distances in the films that I can recall, at least prior to The Last Jedi's Force projection contrivance to make it's plot work. There's a reason that Palpatine, Vader, and Snoke are always using holographic projectors and video calls to talk to their underlings. The longest range telepathy I can recall is when everyone was on Bespin or when Luke and Vader were on Endor.

Yoda could feel Anakin killing the Sand People and sense Order 66 happening all over the galaxy.

And there was this deleted Return of the Jedi scene:

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

A Star Wars film obfuscating the parentage of a Skywalker child? Never!

Obi-Wan and Yoda were flat out lied to Luke. Leia and Han would freely talk about it if a child existed. Since in your scenario Snoke and Kylo knew about the child they would have mentioned it.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Yes, if Luke has already decided that Kylo Ren is irredeemable and must be stopped, why wouldn't he finish the task when he found out that he'd been tricked?

But he goes to an island to mourn and cuts off all contact. If he didn't regret it he had funny way of showing it!

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I would like to live in a world where film franchises are bought for $ 4, 000, 000, 000.00 dollars to make "wait and see" movies.  Are there unicorns there?

As I said Lucas gave them a the outlines for three movies. They decided the first story for the first one needed to be pushed back(considering how fans reacted to a disillusioned and bitter Luke, they were right) and introduce the female character on her own for the first movie.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

You asked for alternatives to Rian's only possible logical conclusion to Luke's absence, and Luke being dead is one of them. It speaks to how poorly Luke Skywalker was portrayed in TLJ that him being dead is a happy alternative, but here we are.

You would rather Luke be dead than be guilt-ridden over a mistake he made? I don't feel that way. Again all these convoluted scenarios just to avoid one where Luke has human failings that everyone has is mind-boggling.

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I've suffered through depression at various points in my own life, been suicidal at my darkest moments, which is probably a big part of the reason that I had such a strong negative reaction to Luke in TLJ.

For that reason I haven't really felt comfortable talking about this aspect of it, but the movie literally ends with Luke committing a romanticized suicide, which protects his family and preserves the image of Luke as a hero that he projects to salt planet.

Star Wars The Last Jedi, Suicide IS the Answer.

I'm very sorry to hear that and if TLJ affected you that way than I can understand your feeling negative. Luke knew he was going to continue being a Force Ghost, hence "See you around, kid." It wasn't something he wanted to do, but it was the only way to save his sister and the Resistance. I don't think it romanticized suicide since Luke came to that island to die. I think it's message was to not give up hope or give in to despair even if you make horrible mistakes that you don't think can be forgiven.

[benteen]

I have to agree with Hamill's take.  Luke would be devastated over what his nephew did but after a year or so, he would go about trying to set things right.

I think JJ will "set things right" as well as he can but he's a filmmaker who plays in more talented filmmaker's worlds and displays very little originality or creativity of his own.

Edited June 23, 2018 by benteen

[Zuleikha]

Yoda could feel Anakin killing the Sand People and sense Order 66 happening all over the galaxy.

Yes, the disturbance in the Force sensing has been canon, but that's a far cry from  the precise full-on telepathy required for "Leia, I'm stuck at this location. Send me a ship."

I also don't even understand this debate about Han being in danger. What exactly was Luke supposed to sense through the Force and intervene in? 

Luke cutting himself off from the Force was not a part of TLJ that I actually had problems with. I thought it was the most interesting concept and the one that flowed most organically out of TFA. I just don't think Johnson ended up DOING anything interesting with it. We didn't really learn anything new about the Force, the Jedi, what Luke knows about the Force and the Jedi, Rey's relationship with the Force, or even Kylo's relationship with the Force, Snoke, Luke, or the Jedi. 

JJ likes to be cute and set up all of these mysteries.  Because there was no set plan, that allowed Rian Johnson to subvert those decisions just for the sake of subverting them.  That's piss-poor moviemaking.

I didn't think JJ even set up mysteries in TFA. He set up STORY. Agree on all the rest, though. 

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Yoda could feel Anakin killing the Sand People and sense Order 66 happening all over the galaxy.

I think that there's a difference between being able to feel a large number of people dying/a great turmoil in the force at a great distance and being able to telepathically communicate things like location or to send a ship. One is hearing an explosion or thunder miles away, the other is trying to yell loud enough to be heard and understood at the same distance.

The deleted scene is interesting (I'd not seen it before), but isn't really clear to me if Luke can actually hear him or if it's more of subliminal message thing Vader is trying, it also didn't make the actual cut in either release so isn't part of the film continuity ...

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Obi-Wan and Yoda were flat out lied to Luke. Leia and Han would freely talk about it if a child existed. Since in your scenario Snoke and Kylo knew about the child they would have mentioned it.

Palpatine and Vader have a whole conversation about Luke Skywalker without directly talking about Vader being his father! Admittedly it's the more farfetched scenario I presented (which is why it's an option b).

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

But he goes to an island to mourn and cuts off all contact. If he didn't regret it he had funny way of showing it!

I think that Luke would regret it in the sense that he'd feel a deep sorrow and sadness over having to kill his nephew because he fell to darkness and was beyond redemption.

I don't think that he'd regret it in the sense of viewing killing a dark force user who slaughtered the other students at his school as a mistake that shouldn't be repeated.

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

You would rather Luke be dead than be guilt-ridden over a mistake he made? I don't feel that way. Again all these convoluted scenarios just to avoid one where Luke has human failings that everyone has is mind-boggling.

I just have a problem with the idea that Luke did nothing for years while Snoke and Kylo Ren kidnapped and brainwashed children and murdered millions.

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm very sorry to hear that and if TLJ affected you that way than I can understand your feeling negative.

Thank you. I will say that actually chatting about this aspect of the movie helps me a bit with it.

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Luke knew he was going to continue being a Force Ghost, hence "See you around, kid." It wasn't something he wanted to do, but it was the only way to save his sister and the Resistance. I don't think it romanticized suicide since Luke came to that island to die. I think it's message was to not give up hope or give in to despair even if you make horrible mistakes that you don't think can be forgiven.

I mean, the idea that there's a better afterlife waiting for you and that killing yourself will help your family, that's sort of right in the suicidal thoughts wheelhouse.

I feel like the entire point of the scene is that the "image"/idea of Luke Skywalker Hero is more important than the actual life/man behind that image. Hence Luke appearing as his younger/more heroic self. It's false, it's a last showing of a brave face to say goodbye.

[VCRTracking]

39 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I just have a problem with the idea that Luke did nothing for years while Snoke and Kylo Ren kidnapped and brainwashed children and murdered millions.

Finn and all other Stormtroopers are 20 and over. Luke was in exile for only 10 years. So the First Order was doing all kinds of shit while he was still an active Jedi.

Also it was Rian Johnson who put the X-Wing underwater so that Luke couldn't leave the island and had to use Force projection. So he could actually leave in any of the other imaginary scenarios.

 

I know I'll never be able to convince people who hate the movie to change their opinion just like they won't change mine. I will say even though the haters on Twitter bring me down with their negativity I've loved reading people online who are far more eloquent than me who can articulate it's virtues like:

and

[Perfect Xero]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Finn and all other Stormtroopers are 20 and over. Luke was in exile for only 10 years. So the First Order was doing all kinds of shit while he was still an active Jedi.

Also it was Rian Johnson who put the X-Wing underwater so that Luke couldn't leave the island and had to use Force projection. So he could actually leave in any of the other imaginary scenarios.

I mean, if the scenario requires Luke to be stuck on the island then obviously his X-Wing would be similarly broken/stuck.

As to the first tweet, I'd argue that it absolutely is a betrayal of who Luke is and that's the entire point the film is going for.

Luke's arc in TLJ starts with the premise that Luke's exile is completely self imposed, so to justify something as extreme as Luke going into hiding and cutting himself off from the Force he has to do something completely antithetical to his character and personal morality that he feels such deep shame and self loathing that he then compounds the issue by running away and abandoning the people who need him rather than trying to fix things.

The movie then sets about telling a story of Luke learning to forgive himself for his weakness and finding redemption by sacrificing himself to save the people he abandoned, but the central Luke plot of TFA is about having Luke betray everything he ever stood for in the OT. The last minute 'redemption' at the end is enough to justify the arc for some people, but for myself it's, sadly, too little, too late.

[starri]

16 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

As to the first tweet, I'd argue that it absolutely is a betrayal of who Luke is and that's the entire point the film is going for.

If anything, it says perhaps that Luke and Anakin are exactly the same.  They made the same mistake out of fear, and had the same reaction.

Anakin was terrified that Padme would die, so he let himself be seduced by Palpatine.  End result, that decision lead to her death, since she was all sad and stuff.

Luke was terrified that Ben would fall to the Dark Side, so he gives into his fear and raises his lightsaber against his sleeping nephew.  End result, exit Ben Solo, enter Kylo Ten.

And then they both go into a form of exile.  Luke is the one to do it physically, but Anakin essentially cuts of his humanity until he finds Luke.  More machine now that man, all that.

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I mean, if the scenario requires Luke to be stuck on the island then obviously his X-Wing would be similarly broken/stuck.

As to the first tweet, I'd argue that it absolutely is a betrayal of who Luke is and that's the entire point the film is going for.

Luke's arc in TLJ starts with the premise that Luke's exile is completely self imposed, so to justify something as extreme as Luke going into hiding and cutting himself off from the Force he has to do something completely antithetical to his character and personal morality that he feels such deep shame and self loathing that he then compounds the issue by running away and abandoning the people who need him rather than trying to fix things.

The movie then sets about telling a story of Luke learning to forgive himself for his weakness and finding redemption by sacrificing himself to save the people he abandoned, but the central Luke plot of TFA is about having Luke betray everything he ever stood for in the OT. The last minute 'redemption' at the end is enough to justify the arc for some people, but for myself it's, sadly, too little, too late.

Luke coming up with a plan(see into Ben's heart while he sleeps) that goes terribly wrong seems pretty consistent with the OT to me.

Edited June 24, 2018 by VCRTracking

[slf]

On 6/22/2018 at 4:42 PM, Perfect Xero said:

No Jedi had ever shown the ability to telepathically communicate over anything close to interstellar distances in the films that I can recall, at least prior to The Last Jedi's Force projection contrivance to make it's plot work.

There's the problem, tho. Johnson has been looking at all the Star Wars media for inspiration, not just the previous films. He loves the EU and has pulled from it extensively. While there are fans of the EU who didn't like what Johnson did, many were thrilled to have so much of the EU used (in one way or another) in the films.

Personally, I'd say the flaws the film had were due to pacing, structure, and some character choices I wasn't wild about and not the new abilities shown or anything like that. TBH I'd think it was weird if abilities didn't evolve or change over time. It's like making a movie about mutants and saying you can't come up with any new abilities and no new character can be as strong or stronger than characters that have come before.

Edited June 24, 2018 by slf

[VCRTracking]

Edited June 26, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Fool to cry]

[Fool to cry]

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Fool to cry said:

I got about half way through this does any of the criticism ever rise beyond, "People who don't like this movie don't like it because they are TOXIC MEN who HATE WOMEN and TOXIC MEN are used to being CATERED TO!!!"?

Anyway, I stopped reading after the section on Holdo, where he claims that she didn't tell Poe her plan because she was concerned about how The First Order was tracking them, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Finn explicitly tell them about the First Order's new tracking tech?

Edited July 5, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Fool to cry]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I got about half way through this does any of the criticism ever rise beyond, "People who don't like this movie don't like it because they are TOXIC MEN who HATE WOMEN and TOXIC MEN are used to being CATERED TO!!!"?

Anyway, I stopped reading after the section on Holdo, where he claims that she didn't tell Poe her plan because she was concerned about how The First Order was tracking them, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Finn explicitly tell them about the First Order's new tracking tech?

 

Finn told Poe in private and Poe decided to go behind Holdo's back and sent him and Rose on a secret mission to find a code breaker.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Fool to cry

[Joe]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I got about half way through this does any of the criticism ever rise beyond, "People who don't like this movie don't like it because they are TOXIC MEN who HATE WOMEN and TOXIC MEN are used to being CATERED TO!!!"?

Those are the loudest voices in knocking TLJ. People with reasonable issues like yourself are kind of drowned out and/or lumped in with the fuckwits.