The Fantastic Beasts Series

[HunterHunted]

Coster-Waldau is another good choice too.

[Zuleikha]

I didn't realize this until you said it, but yes! Coster-Waldau is exactly who should be Grindelwald. Right look, charisma to burn the screen down, and great actor. 

[ChromaKelly]

Yes! Alexander Skarsgard or Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. Either one of those would have been much, much better. I lean towards Skarsgard as I think he could do both the charm and evil very well. I still don't know why on earth Johnny Depp was chosen for this role. It honestly pisses me off. JKR had a longstanding no Americans playing Brits policy, and while Grindewald isn't British, it should have applied here. There was a time when Depp was one of my favorites, but that has long since passed.
Just want to say ITA with a lot of the comments here about representation and what JKR has missed the boat on. My son (he's black) is a huge Harry Potter fan and he's always hated it that pretty much his options for characters to dress as were Dean Thomas or Lee Jordan. For two years for Halloween wore a Ravenclaw robe and made his own wand and declared that he was dressed as "himself, student at Hogwarts." Fantastic Beasts would have been a great opportunity to introduce some more black characters, along with other minorities. It's set in NYC, FFS. Pretty diverse place even in the 1920's. I agree that there should have been some sort of acknowledgement of the Goldstein sisters being Jewish. We saw the HP characters celebrating Christmas. Also could have maybe referenced Jewish mysticism. Would that be part of their background? BTW, book recs if anyone's interested in fiction on that subject, "The Dovekeepers" by Alice Hoffman and "The Golem and The Jinni" by Helen Wecker. Which, if I knew how optioning a book for a movie worked, I'd option that one in a heartbeat. 

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Fantastic Beasts would have been a great opportunity to introduce some more black characters, along with other minorities. It's set in NYC, FFS. Pretty diverse place even in the 1920's. I agree that there should have been some sort of acknowledgement of the Goldstein sisters being Jewish. We saw the HP characters celebrating Christmas. Also could have maybe referenced Jewish mysticism. Would that be part of their background? BTW, book recs if anyone's interested in fiction on that subject, "The Dovekeepers" by Alice Hoffman and "The Golem and The Jinni" by Helen Wecker. Which, if I knew how optioning a book for a movie worked, I'd option that one in a heartbeat. 

There's a lot of research about how language may influence how we think and process reality. The film, The Arrival, explored this premise. I remember listening to this great Radiolab piece about the color blue. It turns out that blue is usually one of last color words to be invented across most languages. The reason for this is that blue is not a color found frequently in nature. And until a culture can reliably  create the color blue, the people just don't see it. The reason they don't call the ocean or the sky "blue" is because they lack the tools to measure and explore both, so both just resonate nothingness or a void.

All of this is to say that if JKR had sought out people from other cultures, she might have truly been able to explore different types of magic in the Fantastic Beasts series. Wouldn't it be interesting to learn that some of the limits to magic that we've seen in HP may not be present in the magical practice for other cultures because they don't have the same language, culture, or view of reality that would cause them to think about magic in the same way. And it might be interesting to see how American magical practice developed into a polyglot that incorporates many techniques from many cultures. Including Arabic magical practice via the Spanish. Spanish has 4000 loan words from Arabic. Or that different cultures were able to practice different types of magic just based on their cultural experience.

The etymology of abracadabra is unknown, but it is thought to be maybe Latin, Hebrew, or Aramaic. Applying that to the wizarding world, means that the avada kadavra spell followed the Jewish diaspora and the spread of Christianity to make it known to wizards in the western world.

[cambridgeguy]

18 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

es! Alexander Skarsgard or Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. Either one of those would have been much, much better. I lean towards Skarsgard as I think he could do both the charm and evil very well. I still don't know why on earth Johnny Depp was chosen for this role. It honestly pisses me off. JKR had a longstanding no Americans playing Brits policy, and while Grindewald isn't British, it should have applied here. There was a time when Depp was one of my favorites, but that has long since passed.

Here's what I don't get - certain movies need a "Big Name" to convince investors that people will actually see the movie.  However, with a franchise like this one I don't see how casting someone famous would help draw in the audience when there's already such a large fanbase.  Throw in Depp's troubles and fading star and why risk the backlash when there are so many other choices out there. 

Of course, for all of the objections that have been raised I wouldn't be surprised to see the movie do quite well, which means that as far as the studio is concerned all of this is just meaningless noise.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Here's what I don't get - certain movies need a "Big Name" to convince investors that people will actually see the movie.  However, with a franchise like this one I don't see how casting someone famous would help draw in the audience when there's already such a large fanbase.  Throw in Depp's troubles and fading star and why risk the backlash when there are so many other choices out there. 

Of course, for all of the objections that have been raised I wouldn't be surprised to see the movie do quite well, which means that as far as the studio is concerned all of this is just meaningless noise.

I don't want to get too far afield because it touches back to the representation issue, but because the executives who greenlight films and the investors who fund them tend to be quite homogeneous (old, white, men with little experience on the creative side) they tend to look on things that reflect their world view more favorably, which can also extend to giving those things more deference when they bomb. It also means that when movies that don't really fit their world view or identification bomb, they are quick to blame the most obvious reasons like race or gender for the poor result.

With regard to Johnny Depp, the last time his name and reputation positively impacted a film was probably Alice in Wonderland or Rango. And Alice had the luxury of running a marketing campaign, which emphasized that it was a very well known piece of intellectual property AND another collaboration between Depp and Tim Burton.

We're very much in a post movie star era. Basically no one can open a film just based on their name and star power. The Monuments Men starring George Clooney and his celebrity pals was a flop. The Mummy and American Made starring Tom Cruise are probably "technically successful" because both are right on the verge of covering the production and marketing costs, but it's clear no one is happy about it because the Mummy was supposed to jumpstart an entire cinematic universe where the production costs were only going to get bigger. No one is bankable in that old studio system way anymore.*

As I said, we're in a post movie star era. In the past 20 years there has barely been a high grossing movie that hasn't been animated or an adaptation of an existing intellectual property. The Harry Potter franchise is basically exhibit A. Those films made $7.7 billion because people like the premise and the intellectual property, not because everyone wanted to see a film starring 3 British kids we've never seen before, the mean nun from Sister Act, the guy who played the terrorist leader from Die Hard and the Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, the guy who played the ex-KGB guy in a couple of James Bond movies, and the Emperor who dies in the first 10 minutes of Gladiator. Given that, it makes zero sense to spend money and waste audience goodwill by casting Johnny Depp, a guy who is problematic for MANY reasons.

*It's possible Dwayne Johnson and Will Smith prevent movies from being completely unprofitable failures. And DiCaprio is just really judicious about the roles he takes.

[starri]

I'm not sure if this Dumbledore/Grindelwald interview is encouraging or not.

[Lugal]

On 10/1/2018 at 6:41 PM, HunterHunted said:

As I said, we're in a post movie star era. In the past 20 years there has barely been a high grossing movie that hasn't been animated or an adaptation of an existing intellectual property. The Harry Potter franchise is basically exhibit A. Those films made $7.7 billion because people like the premise and the intellectual property, not because everyone wanted to see a film starring 3 British kids we've never seen before, the mean nun from Sister Act, the guy who played the terrorist leader from Die Hard and the Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, the guy who played the ex-KGB guy in a couple of James Bond movies, and the Emperor who dies in the first 10 minutes of Gladiator. Given that, it makes zero sense to spend money and waste audience goodwill by casting Johnny Depp, a guy who is problematic for MANY reasons.

As for Johnny Depp, putting aside ALL the other problems with him for a moment, the main thing is: audiences are tired of him and his schtick.  A remember a few years back before the Doctor Strange movie came out, people were batting around casting ideas and someone mentioned Johnny Depp, and was promptly shot down by someone else who said they didn't want to see Depp play the same weird character he plays in every movie.  I agree we are moving into a post movie star era, but I don't think the studios have quite realized it yet.

[HunterHunted]

He's become a lazy shtick-y hack. He IS playing the same weird character over and over and over again. He's also constantly late to set, frequently drunk, and expensive as all get out. He got paid $1 million for a week of work on Into the Woods and he was actually not terrible there. Aside from his salary, you still have to pay his sound engineer $250,000 because Depp refuses to learn his lines and needs them fed to him through an earpiece. Even if he put in a fantastic performance, which I honestly doubt he can anymore, I feel like he's just not worth it. He's an expensive pain who, if I'm being generous, has a 50% chance of putting together a performance so weird an alien that it pulls viewers out of the story.

If the Fantastic Beasts producers had ANY sense, they'd do what Marvel has started doing with some of their characters--releasing info on who auditioned and who turned it down. If they tell us that Colin Farrell was offered the part, but didn't want to put in a multi-year commitment, then I'll stop pining for him to take over the role. If Alexander Skarsgard or Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had conflicts, but Depp happened to meet the director, express that he loved Harry Potter, and had some free time, I'll get it and never mention it again. But they can't convince me that he was actually exactly who they wanted for the part.

[nikma]

Depp was good in this trailer. I have no problem with his casting and I'm sure he will play his role really well. 

[stealinghome]

The nice thing about a magical universe is that if TPTB ever wake up and realize Depp is just not that good and certainly not worth the hassle, they can permanently Polyjuice Grindelwald and voila! Problem solved.

[scarynikki12]

Depp can pull it together if he cares about the role.  He was legit good in Black Mass, probably the first time he put in any real effort since maybe Public Enemies (he enjoys singing so I think that's the secret behind Sweeney Todd and Into The Woods, remove the music and he'd have phoned in both roles), so there's always a chance that he'll turn out to be good a Grindelwald.  My thing is that I don't care.  I want Colin back or, barring that, for them to do like the Potter movies and just straight up get a different actor after movie 2.  Yes, they did it for Potter because Richard Harris died (though I think they'd have had to do it even if he'd lived because he was too frail to pull of the physicality of Dumbledore in the later books), but Depp is not a guarantee in terms of professional behavior.  Take the financial hit for severing his contract and dump him. 

[Popples]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Yes, they did it for Potter because Richard Hatch died (though I think they'd have had to do it even if he'd lived because he was too frail to pull of the physicality of Dumbledore in the later books), but Depp is not a guarantee in terms of professional behavior.

Richard Harris. Richard Hatch was the first winner on Survivor.

[scarynikki12]

Oops!  I make that mistake way too often.  Well, Richard Hatch would also be a poor choice for the role so at least there's that.

[ChromaKelly]

13 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Depp can pull it together if he cares about the role.  He was legit good in Black Mass, probably the first time he put in any real effort since maybe Public Enemies (he enjoys singing so I think that's the secret behind Sweeney Todd and Into The Woods, remove the music and he'd have phoned in both roles), so there's always a chance that he'll turn out to be good a Grindelwald.  My thing is that I don't care.  I want Colin back or, barring that, for them to do like the Potter movies and just straight up get a different actor after movie 2.  Yes, they did it for Potter because Richard Harris died (though I think they'd have had to do it even if he'd lived because he was too frail to pull of the physicality of Dumbledore in the later books), but Depp is not a guarantee in terms of professional behavior.  Take the financial hit for severing his contract and dump him. 

That's one of the frustrating things about Johnny Depp, he actually IS a good actor. He used to be one of my favorites. But then his personal life and (IMHO) his alcohol problems caught up with him and he got lazy. I also think he got stuck in a rut with Tim Burton - as much as I used to like Burton too. Now with both of them frankly I groan when I see their names attached to a project. If Johnny Depp can commit and do what he used to do, I think it could work. The latest trailer gives me hope. I still wish though they hadn't gone with an American and not someone who is so well-known, someone who could more blend into the role instead of it being like It's Super Famous Movie Star as Grindewald. 

[Couver]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:45 AM, HunterHunted said:

Folks here know I'm not a fan of Johnny Depp's casting as Grindelwald. I think he's become a lazy hack. I ran across this jokey list  on BuzzFeed Spain. It got me thinking about who I'd cast if we couldn't have Colin Farrell back. My choices would be:

1. Colin Farrell
2. Cillian Murphy
3. Alexander Skarsgard
4. Fassbender or McAvoy (though I think they both might be too busy)
5. Paul Bettany (probably too busy)
6. Lee Pace
7. Colin Farrell
8. Toby Stephens
9. Jonathan Rhys Meyers if he weren't such an alcoholic mess
10. Ryan Kwanten
11. Johnny Lee Miller
12. Martin Wallström (though he's a bit too young)
13. Jack Huston (though I think his coloring is too dark)
14. Maybe Hugh Dancy or Matthew Goode, and
15. Colin Farrell (I'm never going to let this dream die)

This list makes me so sad! So many good(better) options. Fassenber and Skarsgard especially are what I pictured Grindelwald to look like. Both also have that cold detachment that I think GG had.

I do wonder if they always had Depp in mind for this role? I ask because they clearly imagined Grindelwald as more monsterous looking than he was in the books. I don't recall him ever being described as having two different coloured eyes? I just wonder if the films wanted the big bad to look like a big bad (ala Voldermort). If that's the case then it isn't all Depp's fault. Unless they always had him pegged for this and modified GG to fit the character type that Depp likes to play.

[HunterHunted]

How is the Naga blood curse not an unforgivable curse? Not only do you lose your body autonomy, you also end up with a fully animal brain. Even worse is that it's passed down from generation to generation. So Nagini is made to suffer because her great grandmother might have done something bad more than a century ago. This is another reason why a lot of people had issue with the revelation because it really reeks of one-drop purity standards.

[Scarlett45]

23 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

How is the Naga blood curse not an unforgivable curse? Not only do you lose your body autonomy, you also end up with a fully animal brain. Even worse is that it's passed down from generation to generation. So Nagini is made to suffer because her great grandmother might have done something bad more than a century ago. This is another reason why a lot of people had issue with the revelation because it really reeks of one-drop purity standards.

I don’t quite follow the bolded. Can you explain further?

[Wynterwolf]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t quite follow the bolded. Can you explain further?

One-drop rule.

[HunterHunted]

47 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

One-drop rule.

Thank you.

[Scarlett45]

17 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

One-drop rule.

I am very familiar with the “one drop rule”, but I’m not sure how that relates to the blood curse which causes Nagini to turn from a human woman into a snake. I missing a part of the magical lore I think (I do appreciate your patience). 

Is it that her grandmother was cursed and this curse will now pass to all of her descendants in the female line (like mitochondrial dna)?

 

Ah- it’s as if blackness is a curse that is passed onto our descendants. Omg that’s awful! That would’ve never occurred to me (to consider my blackness to be a curse), but I understand where people are coming from. 

Thank you. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Zuleikha]

I don't understand where people are coming from! Rowling's background for Nagini doesn't logically imply that blackness is a curse passed onto descendants. It seems like a huge reach to compare a fantasy world having a curse that passes down the female line to one-drop purity standards. If it were going to be paralleled to anything real world, IMHO, it would make more sense to compare it to institutional sexism and its effects.

At this point, we also have no idea how the curse is portrayed and only the broadest outlines of what it does. Right now, it seems to me like Nagini is going to be a tragic figure and the curse is going to be clearly considered an evil act. 

[Scarlett45]

24 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't understand where people are coming from! Rowling's background for Nagini doesn't logically imply that blackness is a curse passed onto descendants. It seems like a huge reach to compare a fantasy world having a curse that passes down the female line to one-drop purity standards. If it were going to be paralleled to anything real world, IMHO, it would make more sense to compare it to institutional sexism and its effects.

At this point, we also have no idea how the curse is portrayed and only the broadest outlines of what it does. Right now, it seems to me like Nagini is going to be a tragic figure and the curse is going to be clearly considered an evil act. 

Yes I’m waiting to see how the curse is presented on screen. Based on what I know of the lore, the one drop rule wouldn’t have crossed my mind at all. 

[HunterHunted]

Is it a stretch? During slavery if you had one Black parent, you were considered Black and a slave. If you had one Black grandparent, you were considered Black and a slave. If you had one Black great grandparent, you were considered Black and a slave and so on and so forth. You were property with no agency or autonomy and treated like an animal. During Jim Crow and Apartheid, people were treated as less than and marginalized because of their distant Black ancestry. Nagini is cursed to have her mind and body taken from her to become an animal because of something a long dead ancestor might have done. Is it really a stretch?

Furthermore if you've met anyone who has had family that passed, the idea that an African nose, darker skin, and curly hair might show up in their children absolutely felt like a curse to these people. Carol Channing hid for 80 years that she's a quarter Black. It's not a coincidence. There are people who continue to hide their racial ancestry to this day because of the bias against them. Is the snake blood curse really all that different from a PoC realizing that their skin color and features might become a continued impediment for their descendants?

Or in another analogy, original sin. Every descendant of Adam and Eve is born with a stain on their soul because of what their progenitors did. Is that particularly fair to newborns?

My issue isn't that I think JKR intentionally made these analogies to be racially problematic. I think she ignorantly, accidentally, and incompetently made allusions to areas that were waaaaaaaaaaay out of her depth. My point has always been that outside of white British culture, the woman does not know what she's doing and unfortunately stumbles into disasters because of her ignorance.

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

My issue isn't that I think JKR intentionally made these analogies to be racially problematic. I think she ignorantly, accidentally, and incompetently made allusions to areas that were waaaaaaaaaaay out of her depth. My point has always been that outside of white British culture, the woman does not know what she's doing and unfortunately stumbles into disasters because of her ignorance.

You do have a point. And I do agree that there ought to be more representation in in the HP/FB universe outside of just secondary characters. 

But I still think that that the Nagini twist is getting blown way out of proportion. And trolls taking to Twitter to call JKR "racist trash" isn't helping. Like you said, she probably didn't do it to offend people on purpose.

As for Johnny Depp, I'm pretty sure he'll get recast sooner or later. WB probably won't break ties, but from how things are continuing to go downhill for him...God forgive me for saying this...but you can just tell that something is going to happen.

[HunterHunted]

That's my thing with JKR. She hasn't thought deeply enough about some of the elements she's created in this world. I wish she'd mull over these issues with people of color because I can guarantee that there are a whole host of issues that would surprise her. In the HP series, the audience is told about 3 Asian students (Cho Chang and the Patil sisters). If the demographics of Hogwarts actually tracked Great Britain, there should have been at least 40 Asian students if we use JKR's 1000 students at Hogwarts number. If it's closer to what was depicted on screen, we're still missing 7 or 8 Asian students. What that suggests is that the immigration of Asian witches and wizards does not exactly track the immigration of Asian immigrants to the British Isles. Is there a magical equivalent to IIT in South and East Asia that entices Asian witches and Wizards not to move? Are there some special types of magic practiced in Asia that British witches and wizards can't even concede of?

She creates a world where magic exists regardless of religion, race, gender, or ethnic origin, but is stymied by how said actual magic might actually manifest in different cultures. I'm never going to call her "racist trash." I just think she's oblivious to her own detriment.

Anyway, back to the Fantastic Beasts trailer. Johnny Depp making it to 50 is all the reassurance that I'll ever need that he'll make it to 80. He should have died a million times over because he treats his body like a municipal dump. This trash bucket is ambulatory; he'll live forever.

Edited October 7, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Zuleikha]

Quote

My issue isn't that I think JKR intentionally made these analogies to be racially problematic.

I've agreed with a lot of other things you've written about representation and HP, but I still have no clue how you think the Maledictus curse can be reasonably interpreted as an analogy for the one-drop rule or what you think is being said even if it were. What you wrote in your explanation would apply just as strongly to any inherited disease. There's nothing specific to the Maledictus rule that connects it to multiracial identities, passing, fear of discovery of passing, or the American Black experience. Nagini is not played by a Black actress. As far as we know, she is not hiding her condition. The Maledictus curse is a sex-linked curse, so it follows a different form of inheritance than ethnic identities. Nagini is as much a Maledictus as her mother and her grandmother, and if she had children, her daughters would be as much a Maledictus as she is. 

And even if the analogy were tighter, again, what exactly is the problem?

There are interesting connections with the idea of Original Sin, especially given that Nagini turns into a snake. But again, I don't see a problem here. Of course, what is happening to Nagini is not fair or just, but I don't expect that the movie will portray a curse as something fair or just.

 

Quote

In the HP series, the audience is told about 3 Asian students (Cho Chang and the Patil sisters). If the demographics of Hogwarts actually tracked Great Britain, there should have been at least 40 Asian students if we use JKR's 1000 students at Hogwarts number.

Most of the students at Hogwarts are not named in the book, so again, I'm not following your point here. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Zuleikha

[Scarlett45]

On 10/7/2018 at 1:18 PM, Zuleikha said:

What you wrote in your explanation would apply just as strongly to any inherited disease. There's nothing specific to the Maledictus rule that connects it to multiracial identities, passing, fear of discovery of passing, or the American Black experience. Nagini is not played by a Black actress.

When I first heard of the curse I also thought of sex linked diseases (which in our world effect men more than women, women having two X’s and all*). And I say this as a black American woman.

I also thought of original sin as well....

I think JK Rowling is a brilliant writer, but I can also agree that like many people, they don’t often think of a life that isn’t theirs. Her life experience is being a white woman in the UK and she’s writing her characters (mostly) from that perspective. As a writer with a multi billion dollar empire she could take a little more time to do research and integrate the experiences of various minorities throughout history into her magical world.

On a personal level I don’t know enough about the movie to make judgements yet. I do want to see Zoe Kravtiz as a member of the Lestrange family. A family based on the purity of magical blood has to move through the muggle world with black branches, how does that make the family members feel?!!

 

*not discounting intersex, trans or non-binary persons. 

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

A family based on the purity of magical blood has to move through the muggle world with black branches, how does that make the family members feel?!!

Nothing. The Lestranges and their French-Normandy roots were already coded as impostors. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

Nothing. The Lestranges and their French-Normandy roots were already coded as impostors. 

I don’t follow..... are you saying the Lestranges were pure blood phonies?

To expand on my other post, the Lestrange family turns down their nose at those that are not “pure blood”, if you’re a member of the Lestrange family that follows that dogma, and you’re an ethnic minority, how do you walk through the muggle world knowing people feel the same way about you? Does it make you more hateful to others in the magical community? Does it make you question the family dogma? Does it make you want to stay away from the Muggle world together?

Edited October 9, 2018 by Scarlett45

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t follow..... are you saying the Lestranges were pure blood phonies?

That's close but not quite the same thing. 

The point I'm making is that, in JKR-logic, it makes more sense for the Lestranges or the Malfoys to have a black branch than for the Weasleys or the Potters.

I think the answer to your question is Nothing because it's not something Rowling thought about besides it somehow "making sense" for the Lestranges. 

Ah yes. There's a trope for what I'm trying to say:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EqualOpportunityEvil

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

That's close but not quite the same thing. 

The point I'm making is that, in JKR-logic, it makes more sense for the Lestranges or the Malfoys to have a black branch than for the Weasleys or the Potters.

I think the answer to your question is Nothing because it's not something Rowling thought about besides it somehow "making sense" for the Lestranges. 

Ah yes. There's a trope for what I'm trying to say:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EqualOpportunityEvil

Oh I see. Thank you. 

[tennisgurl]

On 10/6/2018 at 1:25 PM, HunterHunted said:

My point has always been that outside of white British culture, the woman does not know what she's doing and unfortunately stumbles into disasters because of her ignorance.

I dont think that JK is a racist or a terrible person, but I have found that, as she adds more and more to the Potter verse, she really doesn't seem to understand much about the world outside of her experiences as a white English woman, and that comes out most in her world building. Which, in some ways, is understandable, as many authors tend to feel most comfortable writing what they know, but on the other side, with the internet, and being a massively wealthy and successful celebrity who has traveled the world, its hard to justify having a fundamental lack of understanding about the world outside your own culture. Especially as she has increasingly attempted to become more "Woke" and has been retroactively trying to diversify her HP stories, which were, hate to say it, very white and heteronormative. It just is the way it is. She did add more POC later on in supporting roles, and I thought she did well with her female characters and her use of pureblood magic as an allegory for racism and wizards feeling supporter to every other group of beings in the planet were decently explored, but I wish she would explore a wider variety of people and culturs now that the universe is being expanded, and would do some actual research. 

I mean, the idea that the UK (and Ireland, its implied) get one school with a pretty decent number of students, while the entirety of whole continents like North America, South America, and Asia all get only one school per continent, is just ridiculous! Just based on population and geography, both the US and China alone would both have to have at least three schools a piece, probably more, let alone the entire continents. And Europe has four schools, while, again, the rest of the world gets one school per continent, which seems to say that Jo really has no idea how freaking BIG other countries are, and how many people live their, and, by sheer numbers, how many witches and wizards must exist in their population. Maybe you could hand-wave that other countries do more local or home schooling, or that Europeans have more magic in general (in which case, that seems very questionable, both genetically in the implications) for whatever reason, or that magic schools are basically board school Tardises that are massive on the inside for their millions of students, but really, it seems like like Jo either not using her imagination on how schools in different countries would operate, or her really, truly not getting how countries that are not her own work. 

[HunterHunted]

35 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, the idea that the UK (and Ireland, its implied) get one school with a pretty decent number of students, while the entirety of whole continents like North America, South America, and Asia all get only one school per continent, is just ridiculous! Just based on population and geography, both the US and China alone would both have to have at least three schools a piece, probably more, let alone the entire continents.

I think she's said that Hogwarts has about a thousand students. If you apply that proportion to the population of all of Asia, it comes out that Asia has about 70,000 underaged witches and wizards who need some type of schooling. That's just a massive number. For a single school to handle that, it would have to be the size of a very very large university. There can't possibly be a single school for all of Asia because it would be a logistical nightmare.

The other thing that she doesn't quite get about America is that there isn't really a tradition of sending your kid away to a boarding school for secondary education, especially outside of the thirteen colonies. It definitely comes across weirder in the US when a parent in Oklahoma says they've sent their 11 year old kid to a boarding school in Massachusetts. It's probably much more likely that there would be larger magical enclaves like Godric's Hollow in the US, just as there are fairly large ethnic enclaves, and schooling was handled in that community.

If she ever realizes that some of her world building makes no sense, she can always retcon the books by deciding that JK Rowling is a pen name for Rita Skeeter and that's why there are some details that are just odd.

[mary2013]

21 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t follow..... are you saying the Lestranges were pure blood phonies?

To expand on my other post, the Lestrange family turns down their nose at those that are not “pure blood”, if you’re a member of the Lestrange family that follows that dogma, and you’re an ethnic minority, how do you walk through the muggle world knowing people feel the same way about you? Does it make you more hateful to others in the magical community? Does it make you question the family dogma? Does it make you want to stay away from the Muggle world together?

I don't think pure blood families would even interact with the muggle world.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, mary2013 said:

I don't think pure blood families would even interact with the muggle world.

That’s a distinct possiblity. 

[tennisgurl]

I generally think that wizards tend to avoid the muggle world as much as possible. I mean, these are people that apparently find jeans to be confusing, at least the older generations. They dont seem to be paying too much attention. 

[Dejana]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont think that JK is a racist or a terrible person, but I have found that, as she adds more and more to the Potter verse, she really doesn't seem to understand much about the world outside of her experiences as a white English woman, and that comes out most in her world building. Which, in some ways, is understandable, as many authors tend to feel most comfortable writing what they know, but on the other side, with the internet, and being a massively wealthy and successful celebrity who has traveled the world, its hard to justify having a fundamental lack of understanding about the world outside your own culture. Especially as she has increasingly attempted to become more "Woke" and has been retroactively trying to diversify her HP stories, which were, hate to say it, very white and heteronormative. It just is the way it is. She did add more POC later on in supporting roles, and I thought she did well with her female characters and her use of pureblood magic as an allegory for racism and wizards feeling supporter to every other group of beings in the planet were decently explored, but I wish she would explore a wider variety of people and culturs now that the universe is being expanded, and would do some actual research.

They say celebrities stop maturing at the age they were when they got famous and while I wouldn't call JKR is immature, for years she had a massive fandom who treated her like she could do no wrong, with most critics easily dismissed—religious nutjobs, angry shippers, haters pigeonholing HP as a children's book—or confined to forums/chats that didn't have the reach of Twitter, it has to do a number on a person and give someone a bit of an ego. Also, in looking at the demography of the UK and Ireland for the last 30-40 years, Hogwarts was probably equally or more racially diverse than her actual school days in the 1970-1980s (probably the same for people like Yates and David Heyman, son of a movie producer), so it took them a long time to get what people were going on about, with representation. She tries now, but it's just clunky and labored and very obviously out of her wheelhouse.  

I wish she'd just done a Marauders prequel (no need to branch out beyond the UK) or had turned to Quidditch Through the Ages as the film series instead (fresh characters, less chance to contradict the books).

 

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I think she's said that Hogwarts has about a thousand students. If you apply that proportion to the population of all of Asia, it comes out that Asia has about 70,000 underaged witches and wizards who need some type of schooling. That's just a massive number. For a single school to handle that, it would have to be the size of a very very large university. There can't possibly be a single school for all of Asia because it would be a logistical nightmare.

The other thing that she doesn't quite get about America is that there isn't really a tradition of sending your kid away to a boarding school for secondary education, especially outside of the thirteen colonies. It definitely comes across weirder in the US when a parent in Oklahoma says they've sent their 11 year old kid to a boarding school in Massachusetts. It's probably much more likely that there would be larger magical enclaves like Godric's Hollow in the US, just as there are fairly large ethnic enclaves, and schooling was handled in that community.

If she ever realizes that some of her world building makes no sense, she can always retcon the books by deciding that JK Rowling is a pen name for Rita Skeeter and that's why there are some details that are just odd.

Hogwarts either had a 1,000 students or about 10 students per house, per year, depending on the needs of the story.  Math was really not her strong suit, she admitted it, expanding it to the entire world makes it even more glaring. Most UK students also go to day schools, too, though there is that history of boarding school literature and the heavy influence the Eton/Harrow/etc. set have had on the culture and country.  The problem with a fantasy story like this is that the author is free to handwave any logical inconsistencies by calling, "Magic!" Especially for background elements like how other countries' schools work, as opposed to intricate plots involving the main characters.

 

44 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I generally think that wizards tend to avoid the muggle world as much as possible. I mean, these are people that apparently find jeans to be confusing, at least the older generations. They dont seem to be paying too much attention. 

Good point! Though I never understood how there were magical characters who were able to marry Muggles before revealing the truth, given how insular wizards tended to be. If even a Muggle enthusiast like Mr. Weasley could be so clueless, how did other wizards not raise alarm bells with potential love interests in the early stages? Ditto with how Muggle-borns ever catch up to wizards even if they aren't taught how to do magic before 11.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Dejana

[HunterHunted]

27 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I generally think that wizards tend to avoid the muggle world as much as possible. I mean, these are people that apparently find jeans to be confusing, at least the older generations. They dont seem to be paying too much attention. 

12 minutes ago, Dejana said:

Good point! Though I never understood how there were magical characters who were able to marry Muggles before revealing the truth, given how insular wizards tended to be. If even a Muggle enthusiast like Mr. Weasley could be so clueless, how did other wizards not raise alarm bells with potential love interest in the early stages? Ditto with how Muggle-borns ever catch up to wizards even if they aren't taught how to do magic before 11.

 

Look how freaked Ron was when they apparated to Piccadilly Circus. His dad is a muggle enthusiast and his best friends were raised in the muggle world, but he was completely clueless even about ordering a cappuccino.

However, Dumbledore has always seemed pretty comfortable in it.

[Athena]

On 10/9/2018 at 9:12 PM, Dejana said:

Good point! Though I never understood how there were magical characters who were able to marry Muggles before revealing the truth, given how insular wizards tended to be. If even a Muggle enthusiast like Mr. Weasley could be so clueless, how did other wizards not raise alarm bells with potential love interests in the early stages? Ditto with how Muggle-borns ever catch up to wizards even if they aren't taught how to do magic before 11.

 

 

On 10/9/2018 at 9:34 PM, HunterHunted said:

Look how freaked Ron was when they apparated to Piccadilly Circus. His dad is a muggle enthusiast and his best friends were raised in the muggle world, but he was completely clueless even about ordering a cappuccino.

However, Dumbledore has always seemed pretty comfortable in it.

Since the wizarding community seems small and generally very insular, it doesn't surprise me how they wouldn't need to interact with a lot of muggles. Why would they? Their community may be culturally conservative, but they were more advanced in other ways. They've been flying and having medical advances for centuries before muggles. 

I think that while kids under 11 had some magical teaching, a lot of it seems to be reserved until they are at Hogwarts/magical school. Most didn't have wands and must rely on magical widgets and their parents (also house elves). Both Lily and Hermione are described as brilliant so they may be above average, but it's not like other muggle borns don't catch on quick either. The community needs muggleborns and halfbloods. It does sound like if you were in the community, you'd have to give up some or most of your magical life to be with a muggle like Snape's mother and kinda like Voldemort's mother as well (though she was already very isolated for other reasons). 

[benteen]

If you're a muggle, it seems like you give up stuff like electricity to live in the magical word.  I've always found that to be an unappealing aspect.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

If you're a muggle, it seems like you give up stuff like electricity to live in the magical word.  I've always found that to be an unappealing aspect.

 I've had this shadow theory that a lot of the technological advancements in the Muggle world were made by Muggle born witches and wizards who refused to live in the magical world and then tried to find scientific ways to recreate magical conveniences.

[Perfect Xero]

55 minutes ago, benteen said:

If you're a muggle, it seems like you give up stuff like electricity to live in the magical word.  I've always found that to be an unappealing aspect.

Harry Potter (2018):

Hagrid: Yer a wizard Harry, And a thumpin' good 'un, I'll wager, once you've been trained up a bit.

Harry: Cool, just let me grab my mobile!

Hagrid: Yer muggle devices won't work at Hogwarts.

Harry: So no Fortnite or YouTube? Pass.

Hagrid: Magic! You can do magic!

Harry: Hard Pass.

[Browncoat]

There's a lot about the magical world I wouldn't be best pleased with -- I want my ballpoint pens and a soda!  No pumpkin juice for me, thanks.

[starri]

18 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

No pumpkin juice for me, thanks.

Have you ever been to Universal Studios? It's not that good.

[Browncoat]

2 minutes ago, starri said:

Have you ever been to Universal Studios? It's not that good.

Not yet -- a trip there is on my list, though.  But since I don't like anything pumpkin (no pumpkin pie, no pumpkin spice latte, no toasted pumpkin seeds -- they all turn my stomach), even if pumpkin juice were the most amazing thing ever, I still wouldn't like it.  I am willing to try butterbeer, but I don't have high hopes for that, either.

[starri]

Butterbeer was far too sweet for me.  Pumpkin Juice, was basically apple juice with some pumpkin spice.

Still, the experience of eating in either Three Broomsticks or Leaky Cauldron was worth the less-than-appealing drinks.

[Browncoat]

I am jealous!  And I think we're about to get beaten with the topic stick.....

[Spartan Girl]

I actually thought the butterbeer was awesome, but yeah I despised the pumpkin juice.

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Harry Potter (2018):

Hagrid: Yer a wizard Harry, And a thumpin' good 'un, I'll wager, once you've been trained up a bit.

Harry: Cool, just let me grab my mobile!

Hagrid: Yer muggle devices won't work at Hogwarts.

Harry: So no Fortnite or YouTube? Pass.

Hagrid: Magic! You can do magic!

Harry: Hard Pass.

Like the Dursleys would actually buy Harry a phone...

[Perfect Xero]

21 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I actually thought the butterbeer was awesome, but yeah I despised the pumpkin juice.

Like the Dursleys would actually buy Harry a phone...

I imagine that they're constantly buying Dudley the newest model so Harry would eventually get his hands on one of the old ones.

On the other hand Dudley is totally the douche who has a highly successful YouTube channel where he constantly pranks his cousin while screaming about it just being a "social experiment" whenever Harry gets mad.