S05.E08: Homeward Bound

[Kbilly]

I was surprised during Lena's Inside the Episode to hear her talk about Fran as though he was equally to blame for this relationship falling apart. I mean he is in the sense that they were not compatible, but I don't see the anger in him she claims is there.

 

I laughed at that too, as I did when Hector asked her what made her boyfriend so horrible after explaining how truly horrible his relationship was. Besides the ex-girlfriend photos on his phone, Fran wasn't a bad guy--they just didn't work together. 

 

I loved: Hannah laying on the grass by the exit sign, Sample and Laird's matching hats, Adam holding a baby (swoon), Scott's friend's enthusiastic "Hi Shoshanna!" with the finger, Hector (who will always be Guillermo Garcia Gomez from Weeds to me), Lisa Bonet still looking younger than me despite me wanting to be as cool as her since I was 7.

Hated: the Ray beej. He didn't deserve that. Hannah's pajamas...still better than that disgusting romper from the Patrick Wilson episode.

[jtallman]

How is Adam now the sanest person in this group? I remember his character from Season 1, the crazy artist. He's evolved the most, I think. The others--particularly the women--not so much.

[sugarbaker design]

The others--particularly the women--not so much.

 

 

Nope, still GIRLS.

[Clanstarling]

It wasn't an act of love; it was selfishness, pure and simple. She didn't want to hurt her kid, but imagine how loved her kid is going to feel when she grows up and realizes that even with a man who cares about her and a baby, Mommy still wasn't strong enough to get her shit together.

The attitude that someone in the depths of mental illness should be able to get their shit together by sheer will alone, and that they aren't strong because they can't is pervasive, and utterly wrong. It causes many to not seek out treatment at all - thinking they should be able to gut it out and get over it. Imagine how loved the kid will feel when she grows up? Imagine if her Mommy didn't leave - would she grow up at all? Sure, Caroline has options, but in the depths of the dark vortex that is PPD, those options are not always apparent or are seemingly insurmountable. I know - I've been there. I am strong as hell, and was then too. But I needed help and medicine, not will power, to pull out of the vortex and recover.

[27bored]

And yes, I'd rather she'd check herself into the hospital, I believe I stated that in my post. But I DO believe she is mentally ill, the mentally ill don't often have the mindset to check themselves in anywhere. It depends on how bad an episode they are having and if you can convince them to get help.

 

I agree with that, but the problem I have is I'm not going to bestow onto Caroline a mental illness just because it seems plausible or because it's easier to excuse her behavior than just condemning it and her as a person. If it seemed out of character for Caroline, I might have more sympathy. But it actually seems typical for her. Adam said she does shit like that; that's why he didn't want her to move in with him and Hannah. I'm saying that it is probably as plausible that Caroline just bails when the going gets rough and when she can't control the situation.

 

Actually, I see the "loved" kid if she's fortunate enough to get good education on the subject matter of mental illness, to be deeply sad and have an empty place that probably will never be filled, it happens in life. But I see the educated part of her as she becomes an adult, understanding  that her mother did not hate her. That she left because she had a fucked up mind and yes loved her enough to not stick around and do her physical harm.  Because like I said, at least she left a note explaining her state of mind and actually asked said father to make sure that he loved and took care of her daughter.

 

We can agree to disagree, but if the "educated" part of her feels that way, that's only going to exacerbate the other part that has an empty place. Sympathy isn't mandatory. It's better to be an asshole who does the right thing than a nice person who consistently does the wrong thing. I'm sorry because I wasn't moved by what she did or her bullshit letter. She had sense enough to leave a note; she knew what she was doing.

[violetr]

The attitude that someone in the depths of mental illness should be able to get their shit together by sheer will alone, and that they aren't strong because they can't is pervasive, and utterly wrong. It causes many to not seek out treatment at all - thinking they should be able to gut it out and get over it. Imagine how loved the kid will feel when she grows up? Imagine if her Mommy didn't leave - would she grow up at all? Sure, Caroline has options, but in the depths of the dark vortex that is PPD, those options are not always apparent or are seemingly insurmountable. I know - I've been there. I am strong as hell, and was then too. But I needed help and medicine, not will power, to pull out of the vortex and recover.

 

 

Isn't it amazing - and deeply depressing (no pun intended) - that these misinformed attitudes about mental illness still persist, and persist so pervasively? I live in one of the most progressive parts of the U.S. and I still encounter people who think that people with mental illness are selfish and just aren't strong enough to cope with reality. And if Caroline has PPD to the point of a psychotic break (which happened to a friend of mine recently), then her decision making wasn't based on any kind of reality. Sadly, it looks like Laird was so out to lunch that he didn't realize there was a problem, let alone manage to get her to a hospital. Scary. 

[lucindabelle]

Caroline being flaky doesn't mean she didn't have PPD. Come on, the symptoms are classic== wanting to hurt the baby and herself.

She can't just talk herself out of it.

[Hecate7]

I disagree. What's pure and simple to you "ain't" to me.  

 

And yes, I'd rather she'd check herself into the hospital, I believe I stated that in my post. But I DO believe she is mentally ill, the mentally ill don't often have the mindset to check themselves in anywhere. It depends on how bad an episode they are having and if you can convince them to get help.

 

Actually, I see the "loved" kid if she's fortunate enough to get good education on the subject matter of mental illness, to be deeply sad and have an empty place that probably will never be filled, it happens in life. But I see the educated part of her as she becomes an adult, understanding  that her mother did not hate her. That she left because she had a fucked up mind and yes loved her enough to not stick around and do her physical harm.  Because like I said, at least she left a note explaining her state of mind and actually asked said father to make sure that he loved and took care of her daughter. 

 

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I'd rather she got help rather than leave her baby. I mean, I know it might sound like I'm unsympathetic, but that's because I'm unsympathetic. Caroline might be crazy, or she could just be kind of shitty. Not everybody who habitually does shitty things is deep down a good person. Doing what you want in a moment, but not thinking long term about the effects of that choice, is what causes long term damage.

It wasn't an act of love; it was selfishness, pure and simple. She didn't want to hurt her kid, but imagine how loved her kid is going to feel when she grows up and realizes that even with a man who cares about her and a baby, Mommy still wasn't strong enough to get her shit together.

 

 

She left her child ALIVE. Every year there's some big headline case about a woman with PPD who drowned her baby in the sink or just killed it and hid it where it could never be found. Not everyone can AFFORD help. It's being priced out of the reach of most people. It's easy to say "get help," but help isn't just there for people the way it was in the 70s. Even places that existed in the 90s on sliding scales, have been getting eradicated. Caroline didn't need a six month waiting list, she needed immediate help to keep her from harming her child.

 

Yes, the kid might be able to get a great self-pity drama going out of "something was wrong with Mommy and she was weak and no good and worthless," but I would hope that she'd be smart enough to notice that she's alive. The same kid could get a great self-pity drama going over "Mama was too slow and inferior to get out of the way of a speeding bus/cancer/guy on the subway who murdered her," but let's get real for a minute here. Adam's the one who'll be telling her the story, and he's going to put the most loving and hopeful spin on it he possibly can. Adam does his homework as an actor. He will do his homework in this as well.

Isn't it amazing - and deeply depressing (no pun intended) - that these misinformed attitudes about mental illness still persist, and persist so pervasively? I live in one of the most progressive parts of the U.S. and I still encounter people who think that people with mental illness are selfish and just aren't strong enough to cope with reality. And if Caroline has PPD to the point of a psychotic break (which happened to a friend of mine recently), then her decision making wasn't based on any kind of reality. Sadly, it looks like Laird was so out to lunch that he didn't realize there was a problem, let alone manage to get her to a hospital. Scary. 

 

 

I find it stunning that people imagine that a person who was NOT PPD would write a letter like that. Is that how they feel about their own children? Do they really think a mentally healthy mother just looks at her kid and says, "gee, I hate this baby. How can I come up with a good excuse for abandoning my child?" That's just not the real world.

[27bored]

The attitude that someone in the depths of mental illness should be able to get their shit together by sheer will alone, and that they aren't strong because they can't is pervasive, and utterly wrong. It causes many to not seek out treatment at all - thinking they should be able to gut it out and get over it. Imagine how loved the kid will feel when she grows up? Imagine if her Mommy didn't leave - would she grow up at all? Sure, Caroline has options, but in the depths of the dark vortex that is PPD, those options are not always apparent or are seemingly insurmountable. I know - I've been there. I am strong as hell, and was then too. But I needed help and medicine, not will power, to pull out of the vortex and recover.

 

I'm not saying Caroline is a bad person because she (might have) PPD; I'm saying she's shitty for leaving a note under a refrigerator and bailing on her spouse and kid. My guess is, if she does have PPD and manages to get some relief from it, she'll probably hate that she did it too. And I'm saying if you're ever in the position that your only two option are "hurt my kid" or "leave without telling anyone", you might need to have a real moment with yourself and realize that's not what good mothers do.

 

Isn't it amazing - and deeply depressing (no pun intended) - that these misinformed attitudes about mental illness still persist, and persist so pervasively? I live in one of the most progressive parts of the U.S. and I still encounter people who think that people with mental illness are selfish and just aren't strong enough to cope with reality. And if Caroline has PPD to the point of a psychotic break (which happened to a friend of mine recently), then her decision making wasn't based on any kind of reality. Sadly, it looks like Laird was so out to lunch that he didn't realize there was a problem, let alone manage to get her to a hospital. Scary.

 

I'm not misinformed about postpartum depression. I'm just not sympathetic 1) to it being an assumption people make about behavior exhibited by someone who sort of has a history exhibiting similar behavior even before they had children, or 2) deciding to leave and having the people who care about and/or need you worrying their brains out. I'd...just rather live in a world where we say leaving your spouse and newborn child is wrong, even if there's an pitiable reason why. I don't say that to be glib. But having PPD and even many of side effects of that are completely understandable. Using that to explain her up and leaving, which coincidentally serves to continue her run of shitty behavior (according to Adam), isn't right, IMHO.

 

She left her child ALIVE. Every year there's some big headline case about a woman with PPD who drowned her baby in the sink or just killed it and hid it where it could never be found. Not everyone can AFFORD help. It's being priced out of the reach of most people. It's easy to say "get help," but help isn't just there for people the way it was in the 70s. Even places that existed in the 90s on sliding scales, have been getting eradicated. Caroline didn't need a six month waiting list, she needed immediate help to keep her from harming her child.

 

Before the discussion of treatment came into the picture, the more humane thing would've been to talk about things with Laird. His eccentricities aside, Laird seemed to be pretty accommodating of Caroline. Having a history of substance abuse, he might could've related in some ways.

 

Yes, the kid might be able to get a great self-pity drama going out of "something was wrong with Mommy and she was weak and no good and worthless," but I would hope that she'd be smart enough to notice that she's alive. The same kid could get a great self-pity drama going over "Mama was too slow and inferior to get out of the way of a speeding bus/cancer/guy on the subway who murdered her," but let's get real for a minute here. Adam's the one who'll be telling her the story, and he's going to put the most loving and hopeful spin on it he possibly can. Adam does his homework as an actor. He will do his homework in this as well.

 

Possibly. I don't think it has to be melodramatic or anything unfairly critical of Caroline. It's simple: "Sample, your mother gave up." Simple, to the point, and absolutely true. If she thinks it's because her mother was sick and needed help, or if she just thinks her and her father weren't enough for her to keep trying, it all boils down to she gave up. It may be a huge deal; it may not.

[Hecate7]

You could have stopped at "I'm not sympathetic."

 

"your mother gave up," is melodramatic and unnecessarily judgemental of Caroline, especially if Caroline isn't dead, comes back after some time in a hospital, and actually raises Sample, which actually is the most likely outcome here. Many people would hate that because it doesn't punish Caroline, but those are the same people who think what Caroline did was horrible because of the impact it MIGHT have on Sample, (it has had no impact at all on her so far--people stepped in).

 

The most likely scenario actually is that Sample will never know that this even happened.

 

The next most likely scenario is that Sample will find out when she has PPD and uncle Adam comes over and says "I thought I'd check on you because your mother had a hard time....oh, you were thinking about drowning the baby and killing yourself? Wow that's a surprise. Not. Here, Jessa can you take her to the doctor and I'll stay with the baby til you get back? I got this."

 

The least likely scenario is that Caroline is never coming back and this will have to be explained to Sample someday. But if it does have to be explained, the best way to do it is without judgements, answering all of the questions Sample asks, and only the questions she asks.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Hecate7

[chocolatine]

Caroline is bipolar, and even before having a child she was already so far gone that she was refusing to get treatment. She did not get any care during her pregnancy that we know of, and had "planned" to give birth at home on her own, without even a midwife/doula present. There's a real chance she and the baby would have died if Adam, Jessa, and Hannah hadn't intervened. Considering all that, leaving a note under the fridge actually showed some growth. She did what in *her* mind was best for her daughter, whether it objectively was or not. Jessa-Hannah is obviously going to have a difficult childhood, like all children of mentally ill/addict parents do. That would have been the case regardless of whether Caroline had left or stayed.

Edited April 13, 2016 by chocolatine

[Hecate7]

Caroline is bipolar, and even before having a child she was already so far gone that she was refusing to get treatment. She did not get any care during her pregnancy that we know of, and had "planned" to give birth at home on her own, without even a midwife/doula present. There's a real chance she and the baby would have died if Adam, Jessa, and Hannah hadn't intervened. Considering all that, leaving a note under the fridge actually showed some growth. She did what in *her* mind was best for her daughter, whether it objectively was or not. Jessa-Hannah is obviously going to have a difficult childhood, like all children of mentally ill/addict parents do. That would have been the case regardless of whether Caroline had left or stayed.

 

 

I thought so, too, actually. This was never going to be a very easy path for anyone concerned.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Hecate7

[27bored]

You could have stopped at "I'm not sympathetic."

 

Heh. You're right. It's not that simple, though. I guess, to me, sympathizing with Caroline means that in some way what she did is okay...as if it's nobody's fault. I can say it's nobody's fault for PPD and many other things. Bailing on your spouse and infant? For me it's not so simple. And it's not that I don't have a soul (honest!), but it's just that sometimes the best motivator for getting help and dealing with things is so that you don't have to live with being the person who does things bad, mean, or selfish people do. Having a Good Excuse isn't better than Not Needing One, if that makes any sense. It might sound judgmental, just speaking theoretically, but you sort of have to be the bad guy in order to not be the bad guy, some of the time. Pretending like it's all relative and no one can judge or call it out (and I'm not saying anyone here is doing that), just acquits you and your psyche so you can be a good person, irrespective of how remorselessly shitty you are.

 

I doubt I'm explaining any of this right...

[represent]

 

I thought so, too, actually. This was never going to be a very easy path for anyone concerned.

Exactly, and her dad is a drug addict. Which someone posted he probably went out and relapsed as a result of all this.

 

He was in no way ever strong enough to try and get Caroline help, and like I said, the mentally ill can need convincing to go and check themselves into a hospital. Laird in no way seems to be capable of grasping the situation enough to recognize the signs that his wife is having an episode, much less call over family members and support to try and convince her to get help. He's always seemed to be completely unaware to me. Which is why I wasn't the least bit surprised when he nonchalantly told Adam that Caroline went the store 3 days ago and hadn't returned. Like, that's normal, no big deal, I really wasn't surprised at all. I haven't watched every season of this show, so I missed some things, but I saw enough of him to know he can't handle much anything. He's sweet, but again, he too is not well.

 

By the way, I don't think Adam is going to end up with Jessa, nor will he be written to return to Hannah. I think his great love at the end of this show will be his precious niece. He's going to take care of her, he is not going to have the patience nor time for these Girls' "issues."  In the next episode, it looks like he's trying to tend to Sample, feed her, and all "baby" Jessa can do is sit there and whine about Hannah. Enough, go wash a few onesies to help out or just leave.

Edited April 13, 2016 by represent

[announcergirl]

LOL, I feel the same way. No way with my with my obsession with cleanliness would I be able to have her in my home. Maybe my car? 

But I like Hannah.

 

And no way in hell is a barefoot, walking on the streets of NYC Marnie, getting in my bed, HELL NO. Walking barefoot on the grass in the country is one thing but...

And, you just KNOW Marnie smelled badly that night. The shot of Hannah with those dirty pajamas and her legs spread wide to show they were dirty between the legs - I was done. So really, the only people who could stay in my space are the baby -- and she's iffy cause of Caroline and Laird- and Shoshanna. She's been pretty clean right?

Jesse looks like old cigarettes, Pert shampoo and musty underarms. Just me?

[candall]

Unless you are into babies, you do not want to hold one.

Yep.  Thanks, no thanks.

 

Ray is officially The Best for being frantic about Hannah's safety and taking down license numbers instead of angry for blah blah blah, you know, all of that other stuff.

 

You get ME all the way out there to help you and then can't be inconvenienced to hang around for the tow truck, not to mention the repair costs--I'd be selling your self-centered little princess butt to the first sex trafficker passing by.

 

I wonder if Lena Dunham's intentionally burning the Hannah bridge on her way out the door?  I don't know how she has these friends; I don't know why anyone puts up with her, either personally or professionally.  Her behavior is just generally indefensible.

 

Hannah's soft face, as she regards NY and the possibility of renewal, coming at minute mark 30 doesn't really seem sufficient redemption for the preceding 29 moments of childish what-the-fuckery.

[WhosThatGirl]

I wonder if Lena Dunham's intentionally burning the Hannah bridge on her way out the door?

 

I would think this too, but we have another season in a year. I mean, maybe she is just trying to make the viewers hate her enough to not miss the character when the end is near, but..kind of early. There's 10 more episodes we will be dealing with this girl. 

[candall]

I would think this too, but we have another season in a year. I mean, maybe she is just trying to make the viewers hate her enough to not miss the character when the end is near, but..kind of early. There's 10 more episodes we will be dealing with this girl. 

OH!  I thought we just had a gap and a final end-half.  Well, goodie.  Still lots of room to grow, places to go.

[WhosThatGirl]

OH!  I thought we just had a gap and a final end-half.  Well, goodie.  Still lots of room to grow, places to go.

Yeah, we get a final full season, which does mark the question you asked earlier..what the hell is going on with this character? I honestly have no idea what the next two episodes of this will bring when we end this season and I have no idea what's going to happen next season. Will ANY of the girls grow up? I was really excited for this season when the trailer came and loved the first episode of this season and now that the season's pretty much over, I'm kind of dissapointed. It feels like it went by with a whirl and nothing happened. That first episode this season was the high point for me this season, it hit all the right notes with this show. 

[Hecate7]

Wow. I thought this was the last season. Oh, dear.

 

Jessa messed up her first grocery run for Adam, but she did MAKE one. And then went out and did another. I think Jessa will settle in to help Adam, and I suspect she is already pregnant. She has always wanted to be. Our first exposure to Jessa was that she was terrified because she was pregnant, aborted, and IMMEDIATELY had unprotected sex. Adam was crushed that Mimi Rose didn't turn to him when she was pregnant. Put those two things together with their first intercourse together and the weird pregnancy parody pillow talk, and these two are the new generation of messed up parents.

 

Also, Jessa said no to picking up Hannah because she was studying, which she actually was, but then she did a grocery run for Adam. There's hope for her. She may be whiny but there's definitely hope.

And, you just KNOW Marnie smelled badly that night. The shot of Hannah with those dirty pajamas and her legs spread wide to show they were dirty between the legs - I was done. So really, the only people who could stay in my space are the baby -- and she's iffy cause of Caroline and Laird- and Shoshanna. She's been pretty clean right?
 

 

No. Shosh was awful to both Yoshi and to her fiance. That was seriously not good. She should have apologized profusely. She should get her hymen put back in surgically and go back to Yoshi. She liked it better in Japan and if she gets the surgery she'll be telling the truth. Plus Yoshi maybe still likes her. Possibly. Hard to tell. Shosh is kind of a mess.

[ForYouEverlong]

I bet 20 bucks that Shosh reinvents Ray's coffeehouse to some Japanesque cat cafe type of thing, and turns it all around.

[qtpye]

I just want to say that I hate the way the show presents mental illness.  If Lena has Hannah diagnosed as bipolar, I am going to be pissed.  It is just going to add to misconceptions and ignorance about mentally ill people in general.

 

That being said, I think she is going to have Hannah act more and more horribly in order to push the envelope.  She has nothing to lose since we now have an end date and there is no fear of cancellation.  I hope she is not going to replace shock factor for real character growth.

 

I hope baby sample goes to a good home, it is obvious that her parents can not properly care for her right now.

[nachomama]

Yes Jessa went on a grocery run but I don't think she was kidding when she bought the milk and didn't think Sample would know the difference. (and quite frankly Sample is old enough to eat baby cereal and baby foods, formula should not be her only diet at the moment anyway.)

[heatherchandler]

I am finding Hannah's character tedious.  Is this supposed to be part of her mental illness?  I feel like Lena is trying to show us "young people in the city" but this is definitely not how people behave.  Even selfish people behave better than this.  I don't get where she is going with her.

 

So - I NEED to know about Marnie's dress.  I think it is so cute.  The blue one with the pattern - she was wearing it while they were singing.  I usually go to wornontv.com to find stuff like this, but I am not seeing it.  Anyone know where I can buy it? 

Yes Jessa went on a grocery run but I don't think she was kidding when she bought the milk and didn't think Sample would know the difference. (and quite frankly Sample is old enough to eat baby cereal and baby foods, formula should not be her only diet at the moment anyway.)

 

How old is she?  I thought she is supposed to be like 3-4 months old.  I guess she looks older than that.

[nachomama]

The break from last season was supposed to be almost a year. Shosh was supposed to have been in Japan a year, her relationship with Fran was about a year, so that kid has got to be at least a year. I know actor babies are usually older than what they play but a one year old eats cheerios as a snack, definitely baby food. 

[violetr]

Really interesting article in Vulture today about Hannah's persistent unlikeability and lack of growth over the course of the show. It examines how her personality and behavior affects Girls' audience and what motivations Lena Dunham might have for making Hannah this way. 

 

Jesse looks like old cigarettes, Pert shampoo and musty underarms. Just me?

 

I think Jemima Kirke (and Jessa) are just stunningly beautiful. She looks like a Botticeli to me. 

[ReadMeLattice]

I'd rather she got help rather than leave her baby. I mean, I know it might sound like I'm unsympathetic, but that's because I'm unsympathetic. Caroline might be crazy, or she could just be kind of shitty. Not everybody who habitually does shitty things is deep down a good person. Doing what you want in a moment, but not thinking long term about the effects of that choice, is what causes long term damage.

It wasn't an act of love; it was selfishness, pure and simple. She didn't want to hurt her kid, but imagine how loved her kid is going to feel when she grows up and realizes that even with a man who cares about her and a baby, Mommy still wasn't strong enough to get her shit together.

We don't know that she isn't coming back or that she didn't check herself into a mental hospital. She likely wrote the note in a moment of crisis (and possibly in a suicidal or violent moment) and thus it isn't going to be all, "Oh, let me get some talk therapy and let's talk about it calmly." I actually think this one instance is the only time Lena handled mental illness well. Caroline's actions were truly unselfish. She obviously wanted to stay with both Laird and the baby, but that would have been the selfish choice.

The problem, and part of the reason I assume so many of the mental illness/was this wrong or right/does Hannah have a mental illness or not reactions from media and viewers are veering into offensive territory, is that Lena has made her mentally ill characters (Caroline, Jessa with her addiction, Hannah) into cartoon characters. That's fine with satire, but mental illness already carries a huge stigma and people already have all sorts of inaccurate, stereotyped ideas about what mental illness "is." She perpetuates those ideas and even makes them worse. I truly hope Hannah doesn't have bipolar disorder because it'll just make people with bipolar disorder seem ridiculous, and people already have crazy ideas about it. Caroline was a 100% satirical character before, blown up far larger than life, so of course it's hard to see her PPD as serious and difficult and painful because we're used to her being a crazy caricature rather than a person. And how are we supposed to see addicts as people in pain rather than selfish or weak assholes when Jessa, Laird, and Adam are the addicts on this show?

It's really highly irresponsible of Lena when it's already a category of disability that is so misunderstood by most people.

[qtpye]

I think Jemima Kirke (and Jessa) are just stunningly beautiful. She looks like a Botticeli to me

 

 

I think Jemima is pretty and Jessa is gross,which is probably a compliment to the actress's abilities.

[ReadMeLattice]

I agree with that, but the problem I have is I'm not going to bestow onto Caroline a mental illness just because it seems plausible or because it's easier to excuse her behavior than just condemning it and her as a person. If it seemed out of character for Caroline, I might have more sympathy. But it actually seems typical for her. Adam said she does shit like that; that's why he didn't want her to move in with him and Hannah. I'm saying that it is probably as plausible that Caroline just bails when the going gets rough and when she can't control the situation.

We can agree to disagree, but if the "educated" part of her feels that way, that's only going to exacerbate the other part that has an empty place. Sympathy isn't mandatory. It's better to be an asshole who does the right thing than a nice person who consistently does the wrong thing. I'm sorry because I wasn't moved by what she did or her bullshit letter. She had sense enough to leave a note; she knew what she was doing.

A note that said she was suicidal, filled with guilt and shame, and wanted to hurt her baby. Why would that be her flaky lie?! Wouldn't she just say Laird was a bad partner or bought more agave or something?

Also, to the "she wasn't strong enough" thing: So if a character was paralyzed, would we say they were not strong enough to walk? If a character had diabetes, would we say they weren't strong enough to create more insulin?

PPD is a very particular situation. Other people with severe depression might have jobs, spouses, partners, friends, school, or kids to contend with, and that can be horrifically difficult. But a person with PPD has recent bodily trauma (birth/labor, hormones, possibly complications, exhaustion) as well as a newborn baby that requires breastfeeding, constant attention, and nurturing, and probably lots of isolation. So there's not really a way to just "seek help" (if it's very severe) without leaving the baby for at least some amount of time. If you can get over it while still caring for the baby full time and just some outpatient therapy, it likely wasn't all that severe.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Lm2162

[violetr]

Lena has made her mentally ill characters (Caroline, Jessa with her addiction, Hannah) into cartoon characters.

 

 

This is an interesting POV to me because I haven't felt that way at all. I have just seen them as struggling with their various illnesses/addictions. Lena herself has OCD and has been very open in the media about battling the stigmas attached to mental illness. 

[ReadMeLattice]

I don't think she has portrayed any of them in a realistic way at all except, for a few episodes, OCD, but then she quickly dropped it and stopped mentioning it as soon as Hannah went on meds, which isn't realistic. She has no experience with other mental illnesses herself and especially Caroline she has made absolutely ridiculous. It's hard because I know she's supposed to be writing a funny show about immature people, but people can be immature jerks without having mental illnesses. I don't think she has done anything more for the "stigma" of mental illness with the character of Hannah than she has done for feminism (yikes).

Another problem is that at the end of the day, it's TV. Most mental illnesses aren't very interesting to watch. Depression is mostly about internal pain and lots of listless, hopeless boredom. PPD is generally about suicidal thoughts that never get acted on, not running away. Bipolar disorder generally makes you have a manic period a few days a month and a lot of depressive episodes, not lie on the side of the road or whatever other insane things the characters have done. Alcoholic relapses don't generally result in you almost raping a girl like Adam did. They are more about guilt and your own physical health. So while of course she needs to keep it interesting, I hope that viewers without mental illnesses or spouses or family members with mental illnesses don't think that mentally ill people spend most of their time hurting others rather than just being in pain themselves.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Lm2162

[violetr]

She has no experience with other mental illnesses herself and especially Caroline she has made absolutely ridiculous.

 

 

We can agree to disagree, Lm2162! But FWIW Lena suffers from OCD, severe anxiety and depression. Here's an article about her work to combat mental health stigmas. The degree to which she combats these issues on the show varies, mostly because the show isn't about people with mental health issues. There just happen to be a few characters who have had some mental health struggles. I do think the portrayal of Hannah's issues with OCD is pretty realistic and sensitive (and unsurprisingly, one of the few times over the course of the series that she's been a sympathetic character). 

 

Most mental illnesses aren't very interesting to watch.

 

 

I disagree. It really depends on the show. You're the Worst has done a fantastic job of depicting depression. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by violetr

[ReadMeLattice]

I just mean that they generally aren't as dramatic as she depicts. Of course, she's a TV writer. And that's my point-- yes, it's not about people with mental illnesses, but since she does depict them she has a responsibility to do so, well, responsibly. I also hope that people's general hatred of Lena doesn't extend to the mental illnesses she portrays.

I do wish she would deal with the OCD again. It generally doesn't just magically go away.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Lm2162

[represent]

 

"But I do know that in so firmly resisting any growth for Hannah, Girls also resists our expectations of what a television show should be."

Yeah this is the problem in life, people's expectations and learning to adjust when they aren't met, or one could just turn the channel. 

 

This article doesn't speak for this viewer. Because this viewer can go along for the  ride once and while that shows a character that doesn't grow, because guess what? That's real, human beings are creatures of habit, even when those habits are the worst and keep giving us the same outcomes. 

 

Once again, I'm left with the question as to whether this character would be so offensive to the critics had she been a he.  Once again, female characters do not have to be likable or rather, shouldn't have to be likable.  I do have an expectation that this will be wrapped up in some way, but if it ends with Hannah falling completely apart because she didn't learn, nor grow, then fine. I'm hear for it, because it seems real to me. 

 

 

“I know Dunham is not Hannah, and Hannah is not Dunham, but how can Hannah be so stupid if Dunham is so deft?”

 

 

I can't with this quote, really?  This quote is just dumb to me, sorry, this is dumb.

Edited April 13, 2016 by represent

[qtpye]

It was kind of shocking to me that the only character more hated then Hannah Horvath was Hannibal Lector.  From the article, it seemed it was implying that people might actually liked Hannibal better, but could not get past the people eating.

 

I wonder if it is sexism, or if writers are going to cast a despicable male, they go with someone naturally likable (like Brian Cranston or Jon Hamm)?

 

Is it that Larry David is so goofy, people do not take offense?

 

I have no idea.

Edited April 13, 2016 by qtpye

[represent]

It was kind of shocking to me that the only character more hated then Hannah Horvath was Hannibal Lector.  From the article, it seemed it was implying that people might actually liked Hannibal better, but could not get past the people eating.

 

I wonder if it is sexism, or if writers are going to cast a despicable male, they go with someone naturally likable (like Brian Cranston or Jon Hamm)?

 

Is it that Larry David is so goofy, people do not take offense?

 

I have no idea.

Curb and Seinfeld was just straight up funny. Not one serious word was spoken, not one serious act, LOL. Just nonstop laughter, no one was truly in love, or tortured, or even really trying to achieve anything good, I'm cracking up as I type this, thinking about both shows. 

 

But back to Girls, I can also guarantee that "looks" are definitely at play here. I guarantee if she was a hot blonde, think of any "hot" blonde, by Hollywood, popular culture standards...had she spread her legs for the boss, there would still be outrage. But folks would not be able to help themselves to give a shout out to her outer beauty while condemning her inner ugliness. There would be cries of she's so beautiful, so why does she behave this way. If only she'd clean up her behavior she'd be perfect cause she's so beautifu (eye roll). Please that's is how it goes.

Edited April 13, 2016 by represent

[qtpye]

But back to Girls, I can also guarantee that "looks" are definitely at play here. I guarantee if she was a hot blonde, think of any "hot" blonde, by Hollywood, popular culture standards...had she spread her legs for the boss, there would still be outrage. But folks would not be able to help themselves to give a shout out to her outer beauty while condemning her inner ugliness. There would be cries of she's so beautiful, so why does she behave this way. If only she'd clean up her behavior she'd be perfect cause she's so beautifu (eye roll). Please that's is how it goes.

 

 

Sort of like Sharon Stone. 

[represent]

Sort of like Sharon Stone. 

Right, it depends on who's doing the flashing. If the person is hot, well then...there's still outrage, with a hesitation, in honor of their beauty/hotness, LOL.

[DianeDobbler]

Really interesting article in Vulture today about Hannah's persistent unlikeability and lack of growth over the course of the show. It examines how her personality and behavior affects Girls' audience and what motivations Lena Dunham might have for making Hannah this way.

 

I liked the article; I figured it would get to gender, and it did. Hannah doesn't appear to have any of the attributes that would "entitle" her, as a fictional character, to be this self-absorbed. I guess the only attribute she has is youth. It's almost like for women characters, there has to be a trade-off - usually some kind of beauty - to barter for being a narcissist. It's like - how does she get to be a narcissist - she's unattractive, overweight, gross, selfish, and she is still so ENTITLED!

 

I thought about a male equivalent and came up with Seinfeld's George. George would steal a housekeeper's tip, I'm sure, just like Hannah did. George was less confrontational, wouldn't flash people, and he dressed better than Hannah, but he's just as selfish and self-serving.

 

I guess there's the unreality that in real life, a woman with as little as Hannah has to "trade", in the conventional sense, would likely not be able to get away with what she gets away with, because there's not much in it for the other person. So it feels a little unreal. However, Lena Dunham is a good comic actress and I think this is entertaining and probably a good thing that she's doing this. Sometimes people with a LOT of nerve do get away with more stuff - there's this near-grudging respect for people who don't know when they've crossed the line, and there's always people who will keep on showing up for them. So anyway, I think the idea of Hannah is a good thing. It took me til Season 3 to get there, and I had to do a lot of inventory to get there.

[Hecate7]

I bet 20 bucks that Shosh reinvents Ray's coffeehouse to some Japanesque cat cafe type of thing, and turns it all around.

 

 

Yes! Yes! Please, please yes. Except knowing Ray he's allergic.

[qtpye]

guess there's the unreality that in real life, a woman with as little as Hannah has to "trade", in the conventional sense, would likely not be able to get away with what she gets away with, because there's not much in it for the other person. So it feels a little unreal. However, Lena Dunham is a good comic actress and I think this is entertaining and probably a good thing that she's doing this. Sometimes people with a LOT of nerve do get away with more stuff - there's this near-grudging respect for people who don't know when they've crossed the line, and there's always people who will keep on showing up for them. So anyway, I think the idea of Hannah is a good thing. It took me til Season 3 to get there, and I had to do a lot of inventory to get there.

 

 

It is like Hannah's entitlement is so bewildering, because by typical Hollywood standards for a woman she brings so little to the table.  Usually, if a girl looks like Hannah in a t.v. show, they are usually cast as some sort of brilliant scientist or amazingly successful business woman.  

 

They rarely are the ones with guys chasing them (Not that I think Lena Dunham is not cute, but we all know she goes out of her way to make sure Hannah does not meet the expectations of attractiveness in the media).

 

In this show Hannah has no problem attracting guys.  In fact, she is usually more successful in this regard then some of her more conventionally attractive and better dressed friends.

 

Hannah can actually pick and choose.  Also, her personality is demanding and needy.  She is not the homely girl with the heart of gold, that is just one makeover away from being beautiful.

 

It is crazy in a television landscape littered with male assholes (who are sometimes not all that physically attractive either)...she is our first apologetically not beautiful female asshole.

[candall]

Ack, my long, polished, post vanished, but the short version is that I disagree with equating Hannah and the Curb character.  The writer suggests viewers are just more tolerant of that behavior and mindset in males.   And gracious, so much hate for Hannah!

 

But I definitely don't hate Hannah--I keep coming back because I'm fascinated by her narcissistic world-view.  How much further can she go before the weight of her own myopic silliness crushes her--or at least boinks her on the head hard enough to get her attention?

 

I decided the Larry David character simply took a lot of pride in being an asshole.  So I quit watching.

Edited April 13, 2016 by candall

[Hecate7]

Yes Jessa went on a grocery run but I don't think she was kidding when she bought the milk and didn't think Sample would know the difference. (and quite frankly Sample is old enough to eat baby cereal and baby foods, formula should not be her only diet at the moment anyway.)

 

 

Yes, actually Sample IS old enough to eat baby foods and cheerios with milk. She's old enough to drink milk, and she can digest it. Probably Caroline was breastfeeding still, because lots of people think the best thing is to do that as long as possible, but we did see Laird giving her formula. Or maybe Caroline pumped.

 

It actually might be Adam who's off-base here. Yes, a baby needs lots of love and needs to be held and picked up whenever she wants, and their needs should come first. But Sample CAN drink milk. She can crawl and play and she should be encouraged to have a minute or two to herself sometimes, so she can grab stuff and pull on it and in a year hoist herself onto her feet, maybe. She needs time to play with her toys and discover that gravity works, and that not everything fits in her mouth or tastes good. The adults around her need to do lots of mirroring conversations and have lots and lots of face time to facilitate the child's speech, but that doesn't mean they can never talk to each other. It's ok to be holding a baby, and actually talk to an adult about that adult's feelings and needs. It's ok to put the baby down and let her crawl around while you help someone else with something. In fact, you're going to have to sometimes. Just because there's a baby doesn't mean your 5-year-old won't still need supervision, or your 17 year old won't need help with angst and college applications, or your spouse won't need to talk. If it were really true that one-year-olds need to be held every single second, then anyone who had a baby while raising any other kids would deserve to be dragged out and shot. It'd be the most irresponsible action humanly possible, to create a creature like that while you were already responsible for another creature like that.

 

I begin to suspect that Adam is holding onto Sample more than Sample really needs, because Adam wants something to hold onto, because he's really worried about his sister, and he feels really unsure about his life and his career.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Hecate7

[DianeDobbler]

Represent, AND there would be worry that she was going to get in trouble. Now it's more - oh, that repulsive Hannah inflicting herself on others when she's so repulsive. But if it were a hot blonde, as you said, behaving exactly the same way, there would be more worry that she was going to act out with the wrong person and get hurt, versus a whole lot of sympathy for the poor shmo who was afflicted with her unasked-for attentions. Hannah is acting kind of like a Jessa. I've known Jessas, although the one I've known pretty well most recently (before she grew out of her Jessa-ness) is not as selfish. She was, though, generous, beautiful and warm and charming, so was readily forgiven. But we're accustomed to seeing beautiful, reckless, inappropriate messes on television. We're not used to seeing unattractive, reckless, young, inappropriate female messes on television who are also arrogant and entitled. Jessa running around a rest stop in her pajamas and ending a relationship by text would just be classic Jessa. Whether we like her or not, it would be familiar. Recognizable. Hannah, it's like - GIRL. Where do you get the gall? You're not hot enough to play these games.

 

So I guess the point is - a lot of this "What is the DEAL with Hannah?!!" doesn't deal with the looks issue honestly. There have been television characters as insufferable. I've bailed on shows at times because of these characters. But I've never been mystified by them. The hot asshole (or charismatic asshole) is a prevalent type. Those TV critics who are all "What explains Hannah? What sort of character is she supposed to be?" aren't honest about the fact that they think she lacks the looks to get away with it, and where did she learn she COULD get away with it anyway? Society doesn't enable that behavior from a woman like her.

Edited April 13, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[ReadMeLattice]

Exactly. And Hannah had actually had more dedicated male attention on the show than Marnie, for example, who had Charlie who dumped her twice and, well, Desi. Jessa had that one hell of a marriage and now Adam, while Hannah had the devotion of both Adam and Fran, two of the most decent guys on the show, both of whom were pretty willing to stick it out with her until she left them. I think people hate seeing that and they also, as others have said, don't accept that she should be "allowed" to act out in the kinds of selfish ways we see girls do on television constantly since she's not conventionally sexy.

[WhosThatGirl]

Adam wasn't very decent when he first hooked up with Hannah, he became decent in season three and then non broke up with her and moved another woman into her apartment while she was in school. But there was a season when he was good with her and to her. But he broke up with her and didn't tell her. Yes, he seems good now but I can't forget he did treat her badly in the end.

Edited April 13, 2016 by WhosThatGirl

[scrb]

There isn't evolution or growth in the characters because Lena is probably too cool for that.

 

Like Seinfeld and Larry David said, no hugs, no learning.

 

Well there are plenty of hugs in girls at least.

[ReadMeLattice]

Adam wasn't very decent when he first hooked up with Hannah, he became decent in season three and then non broke up with her and moved another woman into her apartment while she was in school. But there was a season when he was good with her and to her. But he broke up with her and didn't tell her. Yes, he seems good now but I can't forget he did treat her badly in the end.

Well, yes. And he did try to get back with her and she said no. But on Girls, "decent" is soooooo relative, lol.

[qtpye]

Whether we like her or not, it would be familiar. Recognizable. Hannah, it's like - GIRL. Where do you get the gall? You're not hot enough to play these games.

 

 

I think the show How I Met your mother actually had a hot/crazy scale or graph.  The idea was the girl (and yes it always was a girl) would get away with more bad behavior the hotter she is.

 

I know people get a lot of unfair advantages in life because they meet conventional standards of beauty.  However, I felt that t.v. and film over simplify this, particularly for women.  Yes, guys like hot girls, but a woman does not need to look like a super model to get male attention or affection.

 

Great beauty is no more a guarantee of great love then anything else.  Heck, many real life super models end up in horrible relationships to guys who seem like they don't give a damn about them.

[jennylauren123]

Wait, so Hannah's pajama bottoms were dirty at the crotch? 

 

Thankfully, I missed that horrid detail.

 

It may be realistic, but some things, like that, you really don't need to see. 

 

From now on, I'll just assume that all of her crotches are dirty.