All Episodes Talk: 48 Hours

[Lizzing]

One facet of Melissa's case I've always wondered about is who the boy's pediatrician was and if s/he was connected to the ME, cops, or prosecutor.  If we take the word of the ME who was just voted out, the former assistant ME, and the other pathologists consulted by the defense, the boy's 2 month old head injury was to blame for his death and the boy's skull had quite severely swelled up.  IIRC, the boy had been seen by his ped shortly before his death, thus the ped would have missed the cranial swelling and could be on the hook for medical malpractice.  Obviously I don't know if there's anything to this line of inquiry, but it isn't hard to imagine the original ME being buddies with the pediatrician and helped the ped CYA by finding a non existent head fracture.  I guess I just want more information on how someone can see a fracture where there is none and what the original ME's motivations were for fabricating evidence and hiding the actual xrays.  Nevertheless, the judge was wrong and should be overturned on appeal.  Sounds like that entire jurisdiction should be completely overhauled from cops to prosecutors to the complete judicial branch.

[Queena]

I read that the Russ Faria case aired in November. I didn't see it. Pamela Hupp is the dumbest criminal alive. She's also a serial killer and I'm glad that she's finally locked up where she belongs. The nerve of her to try to set up Russ after every thing that he went through! What a way to overplay your hand dummy. 

 

I think that she would have done best to wait and see if the state would have come after her. It makes more sense than that cockamamaie plan that she came up with. 

[Ohmo]

My local affiliate aired some Christmas special, so it stuck the Melissa update on at 1:30 in the morning.  Something ran over and it cut the ending of the update off.  I gather from this that she is still in jail, having not won a new trial?

Honestly, I have very mixed feelings about this.  While I don't believe that Melissa intentionally harmed Ben, I'm also having a hard time with "the X-rays were Photoshopped" allegation.  They very well might have been, but I wasn't convinced of that from what we heard.  If that allegation is to be made, I'd need to hear A LOT more convincing information than that.

I know this next part might make me sound jaded and heartless, but I kept looking at her parents and thinking "Too little, too late."  Melissa seems like a sweet girl, but if she has a developmental delay to the degree she seems to have, it is Captain Obvious to me that the only four words she should have said are "I want a lawyer."  And yes, police intimidation is not right, but I struggle with the lack of awareness on the other side.  There are mechanisms in place to protect people from police intimidation, and I do think people have a responsibility to think even on a most basic level.  We've now got Kathleen Zellner and goodness knows what resources are being used to free Melissa?  I'm not saying that she deserves to be there, but people need to stop being so willing to fix things later...because sometimes it doesn't happen.  I understand that Melissa may have a cognitive impairment, but I can't muster much sympathy for her parents or her sister.  They are part of the reason she's in this mess.  What the police did was wrong, I get that, but the basic ignorance of her parents and sister was just as damaging, and that damage will take years to undo, if it is able to be undone at all.  People have to be willing to LEARN, even on its most basic level, and stop relying on the Kathleen Zellners of the world to come in and fix things.

[starri]

7 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

There are mechanisms in place to protect people from police intimidation

Oh?

[biakbiak]

It is still a common belief, mostly by people who don't watch a lot of true crime, follow news stories or weren't raised by my mother, that the police are always on the up and up and if you are innocent you have nothing to worry about. Even in the miscarriages of justice that get a lot of mainstream attention many of the stories don't go into details and make recommendations that they should which is always, always get a lawyer. 

[Ohmo]

11 minutes ago, starri said:

Oh?

Yes, Melissa's confession happened after nine hours of questioning.  Questioning that would have stopped if she would have said "I want a lawyer."  People have to be willing to advocate for themselves.  In Melissa's case, she needed someone to advocate for her by telling her to ask for a lawyer.  To biakbiak's point, I know it's a common belief, but that's an explanation, not a solution, and explanations will sometimes not do anything for you.  The world isn't fair, no matter if you're sweet or innocent.  Lawyers are paid to find solutions, and while the average person shouldn't have to know the legal system, they need to know to at least ask for help.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ohmo

[walnutqueen]

Sometimes, even if parents have taught their children to always ask for a lawyer, the poor kids will assume that's only if they're being interrogated as a suspect.  Of course, the cops are able to lie and lead the kid to believe they're "helping" solve the crime as a witness, until they've fallen down the legal rabbit hole without even knowing it.  Because that Miranda Warning?  The cops tell them it's "only a formality" and doesn't really mean anything except some pesky red tape.

[starri]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

People have to be willing to advocate for themselves.  In Melissa's case, she needed someone to advocate for her by telling her to ask for a lawyer.

Which is all well and good, but she's not entitled to have anyone but a lawyer advocate for her, and only then if she asks for one.  How many parents actually think their kid is going to be the one who needs to know that, especially when they have a special needs child.  The cops knew exactly what they could get away with, just like they could with Jessie Misskelley, just like they could with Brandon Dassey.

If I'm mistaking your point, I apologize, but I can't find any fault with what Melissa did.  The only people who acted poorly in this situation were the cops.

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, starri said:

The only people who acted poorly in this situation were the cops.

I also fault her sister and her parents for putting her in that situation to begin with.  Her sister was there at the police station and was also questioned.  She is released and Melissa is kept there for hours more.  It doesn't dawn on anyone that Melissa could use a lawyer or even to attempt to inquire what might be happening?  I could maybe understand Melissa being questioned for a couple hours, but she was there for what, nine hours?  At that point, alarm bells should have been going off.  To your point, Melissa has some sort of impairment.  Her family, presumably, are the ones who should know that above all else, particularly if there are comprehension issues involved.  Her parents talked about doing everything they can now, but her family was not on the ball when this thing first started.  By doing the very basic thing of getting a lawyer for Melissa or helping her to understand that she could have one, this might have had a very different outcome.

ETA:

Quote

 How many parents actually think their kid is going to be the one who needs to know that, especially when they have a special needs child.

If your kid is at a police station being questioned, and that kid has special needs that involve comprehension, then yes, I do think that it is your job to know about obtaining a lawyer precisely BECAUSE your child has special needs.  It's not like Melissa snuck off and didn't tell anyone in her family where she was.  Her sister was at the same police station!

Edited December 31, 2016 by Ohmo

[leighroda]

If anyone is still following the Belinda Temple murder case, her husband was released this week https://www.google.com/amp/www.chron.com/neighborhood/katy/news/amp/Temple-could-be-out-of-jail-as-early-as-Wednesday-10822744.php?client=safari

[starri]

I remember that case, if for no other reason than the icky feeling it left me with having to agree with Dick DeGuerin.  

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, leighroda said:

If anyone is still following the Belinda Temple murder case, her husband was released this week https://www.google.com/amp/www.chron.com/neighborhood/katy/news/amp/Temple-could-be-out-of-jail-as-early-as-Wednesday-10822744.php?client=safari

The next logical question (besides the fate of David Temple, of course) is what does this mean for Kelly Siegler?

[starri]

47 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

The next logical question (besides the fate of David Temple, of course) is what does this mean for Kelly Siegler?

I hope she's shamed and disbarred.  Fuck her.

[Ohmo]

I’ve done a bit more reading about the Calusinski case, and I find that I don’t disagree with the judge or the prosecution on some points. 

1) The judge said the x-rays aren’t new.  They’re enhanced versions of the original set.  If Zellner’s team were able to get access to the server where the original x-rays were kept, why couldn’t Melissa’s original defense team do the same?

2) I agree with the prosecution that the X-rays don’t prove that Melissa didn’t cause Ben’s death.   I agree that he appears to have had a previous injury, but something that Melissa might have done might have exacerbated that injury.  It wouldn’t have been murder, but it could have been negligence.  The X-rays themselves only prove that contributing factors existed, not that Melissa’s actions weren’t a contributing factor.

3) Zellner’s assertion that the X-rays were tampered with.  OK.  We were shown that the X-rays could be tampered with, but that’s a long way from proving that someone from the DA’s office DID tamper with them and had malicious intent while doing so.  Just the other day, I finally figured out how to improve the brightness on one of our TVs.  There was nothing malicious in me not knowing that.  I was just clueless.  Ignorance and intent are two very different things.

I saw a clip where Zellner said the judge missed the point, when actually I think she is missing the point.  She asked why the files were compressed.  I send compressed files for work all the time, and there’s nothing nefarious about it.  From what I’ve been able to piece together, Zellner has spent energy proving that something nefarious could have happened, not that something nefarious actually happened.

I’m not sure why Zellner is not going after the confession (i.e. the previous behavior of the officers on other cases, that sort of thing), but I can understand why the judge ruled as he did.  Once a person has been convicted, there has to be overwhelming evidence of innocence or misconduct, and I don’t see either here.  Melissa is likely innocent, but there’s nothing that actually proves that.  If the reason that Zellner is focusing on the X-rays instead of the confession is that she can’t get the confession thrown out for some reason, then I think Melissa will likely be in jail for a long while.

[biakbiak]

7 hours ago, starri said:

I hope she's shamed and disbarred.  Fuck her.

I hate her so fucking much. This case with her and DeGuerin made me have to choose between two people I can't stand. 

It wouldn't surprise me if they don't retry him.

[starri]

I really struggle with the idea of parole sometimes.  As a big, wet, sloppy liberal, I try really hard to think that no one is truly beyond redemption, and it honestly bugs me a lot that the US takes the view that prison should be about punishment first and reformation a very distant second, instead of trying to equally weight those things.  I know you can take the tack that just because the models in Europe work, they wouldn't necessarily work here, but since our current system also doesn't work I don't know if I see the harm in trying.  Especially when so much of our Prison Industrial Complex is over bullshit drug offenses.  And people always disparage the idea of parole, as if a sentence of "life with the possibility" actually means "life with the guarantee."  If it was a guarantee, Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie Van Houten would already be out, although I think it's more likely than not they'll end up paroled once Manson finally dies.

But there are certain things that I believe go beyond redemption.  Premeditated murder and also rape.  One kills the body, one kills the soul.  There's no reform for Manson, for Arias, for Sandusky, for Downs.  And not this dude either.  Let him rot.

Very good report, Tracy Smith.  Take a bow.

[leighroda]

Agreed, @starri... I know the family (not extremely well, Both David and Belinda worked at my middle school, then Belinda moved to a different district and David moved to my high school, but I did interact with them, Belinda more than David)... it was really hard to see the investigation and trial handled so badly, but I believe whole heartedly that he did it, and I hate that he got out.

[Christina]

I thought they said he did not get out. I'll have to rewatch the ending. I missed a few minutes in the middle, too, but was pretty sure he was guilty because of the materials they found in his backyard.

[starri]

I think we're talking about two different cases.  @leighroda is talking about the David Temple case that is going to take down Kelly Siegler (thank goodness).  I'm talking about the case that was on last night's episode, with the Coast Guard member who murdered his wife and the stepdaughters who were determined to keep him in jail.

[leighroda]

Oh my bad sorry, I got confused!!

[Calamity Jane]

On 1/8/2017 at 6:36 AM, starri said:

I really struggle with the idea of parole sometimes.  As a big, wet, sloppy liberal, I try really hard to think that no one is truly beyond redemption, and it honestly bugs me a lot that the US takes the view that prison should be about punishment first and reformation a very distant second, instead of trying to equally weight those things.  I know you can take the tack that just because the models in Europe work, they wouldn't necessarily work here, but since our current system also doesn't work I don't know if I see the harm in trying.  Especially when so much of our Prison Industrial Complex is over bullshit drug offenses.  And people always disparage the idea of parole, as if a sentence of "life with the possibility" actually means "life with the guarantee."  If it was a guarantee, Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie Van Houten would already be out, although I think it's more likely than not they'll end up paroled once Manson finally dies.

But there are certain things that I believe go beyond redemption.  Premeditated murder and also rape.  One kills the body, one kills the soul.  There's no reform for Manson, for Arias, for Sandusky, for Downs.  And not this dude either.  Let him rot.

Very good report, Tracy Smith.  Take a bow.

My daughter is a mental health clinician in a county jail, and she would back up what you're saying that some people just should not ever get out.  She deals with some very hard cases as they come through, sometimes over and over again, and she sees that some people just are not redeemable.  

Besides reforming the punishment model, we should also somehow deal with the fact that many of the people who end up in jail over and over again are mentally ill, and getting incarcerated is the only way they access mental health care.  They're too mentally ill to take care of themselves outside of an institution, yet not ill enough to be institutionalized legally under the rules nowadays.  So they end up in the justice system instead of the health care system.  Very costly and ineffective.  

[glowlights]

On 1/8/2017 at 6:36 AM, starri said:

I really struggle with the idea of parole sometimes.

Same here. :(

I was glad this ep showed what the family went through at the parole hearing, and gave us a perspective from the director of parole. And I something about "admit you did it and you can get out" makes me squeamish, even though my knee-jerk reaction was to be skeptical of his claims that he has been a model prisoner and should have a chance at freedom. But then I heard the DA say that she firmly believes he is a risk to the surviving family, and I have to believe she must have reason to state that publicly. What a great scene when the girls were reunited with the man who found their mom's body. More Tracey Smith reports, please!

[txhorns79]

I thought last night's episode was a good one.  It almost felt like I was watching Unsolved Mysteries.  It's definitely a case where there don't appear to be any real good suspects.  Ultimately, I would think it would have be someone close to Kay (or at least someone who knows her well), if only because there was no forced entry and little evidence to suggest it was a random killing by a stranger. 

Also, that was one creepy sketch. 

[starri]

11 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It almost felt like I was watching Unsolved Mysteries.

Which has just returned to Amazon Prime.  Only the first Robert Stack season so far, but the new owner is planning to continue to update things.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought last night's episode was a good one.  It almost felt like I was watching Unsolved Mysteries.  It's definitely a case where there don't appear to be any real good suspects.  Ultimately, I would think it would have be someone close to Kay (or at least someone who knows her well), if only because there was no forced entry and little evidence to suggest it was a random killing by a stranger. 

Also, that was one creepy sketch. 

I really got into the mystery last night. of the murder of Kay Wernal.  Man, I wish that I could sit and personally discuss the case with those investigators.  I had some random thoughts.

After they had pretty much ruled out some people, I began to suspect her husband, however, it didn't seem that anyone really thought he was responsible.  He seemed to adore her, suffered and grieved a lot, and paid big bucks to have this case investigated by a team of professionals.  Probably  not cheap.  I suppose that he could have been a good actor, but, the private investigators.....?  I suppose that he could have done that as a measure to appear innocent, but, what if they did find something?  It sounds like since the PD was suffering and not able to do much of an investigation, he would have felt pretty safe. just leaving it up to them.

 Plus, sending that letter after the murder? That was really weird and seemed more like a psychopath to me.  But, I do wonder if that was a red herring.  It didn't sound like a real rejected lover imo.  Too fake.  The part of the letter that mentioned Kay not being happy with her house......that sounds like something a female would comment on, not a male.  And the curse words? Too fake.  That many curse words come naturally when someone is upset or emotional.  But, the person who painstakingly cutting out the letters and pasting them all together, would have been exhausted and calmed by the time he was pasting.  I mean, no way do I buy that the cursing was natural.  

Did anyone catch if a professional person who analyzes letters and profiling gave an opinion? My cable went out for about 10 minutes, so I missed a little. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[txhorns79]

Quote

Did anyone catch if a professional person who analyzes letters and profiling gave an opinion? My cable went out for about 10 minutes, so I missed a little. 

I think the investigators disagreed about the letter.  One thought it did seem like a spurned lover, but the others were convinced it wasn't real.  They did make a comment that the letter's style and the way the words were pasted seemed more like a woman than a man.  There also some suggestion that the killer may have had a partner.  I think it was at that point they pointed to Kay's friend (who seemed like she considered Kay a better friend than Kay considered her), but she didn't really seem to have strong motivations to kill Kay. 

[starri]

There was a former FBI profiler who weighed in, although she wasn't part of the round table. 

[Guest]

May I add another thing....

How can that one man, who is in the picture from Vegas not be identified by anyone?  In an article in the UK's Daily Mail they have additional pictures of this phantom guy.  Apparently the family gave investigators a box of personal photos and his picture showed up more than once.

There was another person in the photo.  How did she not know who he was?  Or anyone else for that matter? 

I'm with you SunnyBeBe.  This case has intrigued me and I've been thinking about it since last night. 

The one question I have is how can you have that many seasoned FBI detectives baffled?  They weren't dummies, why is this so unsolvable? 

Type in Kay's name and the Daily Mail article will pop up.  It's an interesting read.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The one question I have is how can you have that many seasoned FBI detectives baffled?  They weren't dummies, why is this so unsolvable?

From the show, it sounded like there was no real forensic evidence and nothing to link Kay to any kind of affair or other secret relationship.  I believe they even said that she appeared not to have had sex with anyone for some time before the murder.     

Quote

There was another person in the photo.  How did she not know who he was?  Or anyone else for that matter? 

I want to say that the only person they were able to identify in the photo was Kay, so neither the man nor the woman were able to be identified. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by txhorns79

[Christina]

I followed the live tweets on the Kay Werner murder, and someone had posted that she sent her husband an anniversary card with pasted letters like the letter in this one, and it was time consuming and took a lot of different magazines to find what she needed. They were into murder mysteries, but she almost gave up on it. One of the 48 Hour people responded that the experts determined that it was quite time-consuming, too, but I don't remember that being said in the episode. It was part of the reason the female profile thought it was a red herring.

The husband had an alibi that was able to be confirmed, which is one of the reasons he was ruled out so quickly. Kay had a son from a previous marriage and he had a daughter from a previous marriage but they both declined to be on the show. Her son lived across the country, but I don't remember where. The daughter was the primary beneficiary of his estate and she was the one who pulled the plug on the continuing expense and reward. A few comments kind of made it sound like he really didn't have it to spend, but was anyway, which helped the investigators rule him out as being involved in any way. Continuing to live there and not clean up the blood, though, that I found to be disturbing behavior. If it wasn't a trophy, he needed some intense grief counseling because saving her blood splatters was beyond extreme.

It also seemed that the photo had too many matches, and they were running down people and clearing them left and right. That also was from tweets but not really made clear on the episode. There were a few neighbors that matched close enough, the stranger the neighbors said it was from down the street, and the community sent in tips about people that looked like the sketch. All white men wearing glasses must look the same. : )

This was an episode that could have ran two hours because there was enough interesting information. Most of the time, the two hour episodes need to be cut down to an hour. Dateline is the worst about it, and I skip the first hour because it will be pointing the finger at all the people they cleared by the end.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

 I want to say that the only person they were able to identify in the photo was Kay, so neither the man nor the woman were able to be identified. 

Thank you TXHORNS79.  I did leave the room for one minute and this must have been revealed why I was gone.  Still baffling to me because Kay had additional photos of the same guy in a box.  You'd think someone would know his name, or something.

 

7 minutes ago, Christina said:

I followed the live tweets on the Kay Werner murder, and someone had posted that she sent her husband an anniversary card with pasted letters like the letter in this one, and it was time consuming and took a lot of different magazines to find what she needed. They were into murder mysteries, but she almost gave up on it. One of the 48 Hour people responded that the experts determined that it was quite time-consuming, too, but I don't remember that being said in the episode. It was part of the reason the female profile thought it was a red herring.

Odd.  Just odd. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought that most police depts and even private I's would have access to facial recognition databases.  If that unidentified man in the photo has a driver license in this country, he should be traceable.  Also, she may not have recognized the person and then let them in.  Some people still open the door to greet a visitor, even if they don't know who they are, especially, if the person is holding a package, flowers or appears to be official.  But, what stranger would go after her? She didn't seem to have any real enemies.  

We have have some stranger murders in my community before, before it was mainly sex related. (They were also raped and robbed in most of them.) 

I wonder if they had the resources to check all cameras in the city where that letter was mailed on the day it was postmarked.  Not sure how many post offices there are in that town, but, they could have checked.  Likely, the sender of that letter did NOT live in that town, but drove there for the sole purpose of mailing the letter. 

Also, about the letter.  This was done in 2008, right?  That type of message tells me that the creator was more a mature person.  Probably someone over 50 years old.  Most younger people don't recall how that type of mysterious letter was more popular years ago.  It was done a lot in movies from yesteryear.  lol  With younger people, I think they would print the letter out on a plain piece of paper.  Just my take on it. They sure were pretty sharp on the crime scene.  How did they not track any blood on their feet?  Very odd. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought that most police depts and even private I's would have access to facial recognition databases.  If he has a driver license in this country, he should be traceable.  Also, she may not have recognized the person and then let them in.  Some people still open the door to greet a visitor, even if they don't know who they are, especially, if the person is holding a package, flowers or appears to be official.  But, what stranger would go after her? She didn't seem to have any real enemies.   

Also, about the letter.  This was done in 2008, right?  That type of message tells me that the creator was more a mature person.  Probably someone over 50 years old.  Most younger people don't recall how that type of mysterious letter was more popular years ago.  It was done a lot in movies from yesteryear. 

I like what you've brought up about the case.

I know that I used to open the front door then tell the person to wait while I shut the alarm off.  The alarm is just around the corner from the front door but I later realized just how stupid that was because while I was going to turn the alarm off - the person at the door could have easily slipped in and be behind me in a few seconds without me knowing.  Needless to say I don't do that anymore.  Anyway, I didn't catch it - was there an alarm?  They seemed pretty sure she knew her killer because there was no forced entry but if you take my scenario - the killer could have come in without forced entry too.  I shudder to think how stupid my behavior was.

Also Sunnybebe, I think you hit on a really important point - the old cut and paste letters from old probably wouldn't be familiar to anyone under 30 or 35 unless they were a film noir buff.  Very good catch there.

It's Sunday night and I'm still thinking about this.....

[SunnyBeBe]

Me too. It's a very amusing who done it.  

I don't recall anything being said about an alarm.  Only that there wasn't forced entry.  Maybe, she didn't have the alarm on at the time.  Because if she turned it off, there would have been a record of that and then they would have known exactly when it happened, but, I don't think they did.  They did have a neighbor seeing that mystery guy, but, I can't recall the time on that.  Of course, her body was discovered when her husband got home later that night.  I believe after 6:00 p.m.

OH, the thing about the blood on the towel in the victims bedroom! WHY did they go upstairs?  Did they take a trophy and the police just don't know what it was.  I bet her husband would have no way of knowing if any of her clothes or jewelry was missing.  From the looks of the containers, there was a lot of jewelry.  

[txhorns79]

Quote

I wonder if they had the resources to check all cameras in the city where that letter was mailed on the day it was postmarked.  Not sure how many post offices there are in that town, but, they could have checked.  Likely, the sender of that letter did NOT live in that town, but drove there for the sole purpose of mailing the letter. 

It was mailed from Augusta.  That's a city with nearly 200,000 people.  It would likely be extremely difficult to go back to check all the cameras in the city around mailboxes and the post offices to try to figure out who may have sent the letter.   

Quote

Did they take a trophy and the police just don't know what it was.  I bet her husband would have no way of knowing if any of her clothes or jewelry was missing.  From the looks of the containers, there was a lot of jewelry.  

I think one of the investigators said something similar.  They thought a trophy may have been taken, but she had so much stuff they had no idea if anything was missing. 

Quote

Anyway, I didn't catch it - was there an alarm?  They seemed pretty sure she knew her killer because there was no forced entry but if you take my scenario - the killer could have come in without forced entry too.  I shudder to think how stupid my behavior was.

I don't think an alarm was mentioned. 

My thought was the person who did it was some kind of professional.  The complete lack of any forensic evidence makes me think the person who did the killing did some pretty meticulous planning, and knew how to avoid leaving any kind of evidence behind.  If this was a crime a passion, or something planned relatively quickly, I think the killer would have made some mistakes. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by txhorns79

[Tdoc72]

The bloody towel:  After seeing how relatively clean the time scene was, I wondered if it was something from the murder or something like Kay stubbing her toe (or other minor injury) earlier in the morning. It was such a small smear of blood, like it was lightly dabbed on a small wound. 

I hope this generates some tips. She was a beautiful woman. 

[LakeGal]

This is one of the few times I wish the show had been 2 hours.  I still had so many questions.  I wanted to know more about Kay's earlier marriages.  She was married 4 times. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

This is one of the few times I wish the show had been 2 hours.  I still had so many questions.  I wanted to know more about Kay's earlier marriages.  She was married 4 times. 

I was very curious about her previous marriages.  I was also curious about all the kinky things they said they had found at the house.  They mentioned at some point that Kay's autopsy showed she wasn't sexually active, so I was wondering what that was all about. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I got the feeling that the investigators who viewed the items inside the home might have been a little naive.  I mean, why are sex toys bizarre or kinky?  And dress up with garters, handcuffs, etc.  I don't think that I have a high freak meter number, but, from what they said, it seemed to me that on the kinky topic, they exaggerated the extent of it.   

If this was a professional hit, then why didn't this go down somewhere else?  Wouldn't it be less risky to approach her away from home, when no one else is around and shoot her?  Going into a neighborhood like that and into her home, is always risky.  Or if she were so kinky, couldn't they have lured her off to a secluded place?  So many questions about this murder.  I wish that someone would hire me to investigate it. 

[12catcrazy]

Count me as someone else who wished the Kay Wernal case had been two hours.  

I'm another person who thinks the murder had been done by a pro.  How many people do you personally know could slice someone's throat and not leave some evidence behind?  Who ever did this knew how to disable her and acted quickly.  And again, people open doors to strangers all the time.  She was living in an upscale neighborhood and maybe thought that murders and horrible crimes didn't happen there.   Maybe the killer posed as a delivery man or meter reader or something like that.  Maybe he even posed as a cop and flashed a badge.  

It would have been interesting to know more about Kay's past.   It seemed that she tried to marry "up" and  who knows if she  stepped on some toes on the way up the ladder.  Maybe she had a seamy past - so much left out of the story. 

Years ago I remember reading the Rolling Stone article on Robert Blake's murdered wife and there were details about her "past" written about in the article that made one think if a "victim" ever had it coming to them, it was her.  Not saying that's the case with Kay but I'm sure there was plenty of "background" they could've told us about that  maybe would've made a motive for the murder clearer. 

[ButterQueen]

I agree about the person sending the letter being older and possibly a woman.....that pasting of words was something I did in 1977.  I'm not even sure I believe the sender was the killer.  I do believe the killer was a man and possibly a pro.  They did mention that a tip of a latex glove, that did not match the first responders was found.  No DNA?  Maybe wearing double gloves?

I watch too much ID and unless I am expecting someone, I ignore my doorbell....flower deliveries leave notes.  My mom, opens her door wide anytime someone comes.  Drives me nuts!

[walnutqueen]

6 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

Count me as someone else who wished the Kay Wernal case had been two hours.  

I'm another person who thinks the murder had been done by a pro.  How many people do you personally know could slice someone's throat and not leave some evidence behind?  Who ever did this knew how to disable her and acted quickly.  And again, people open doors to strangers all the time.  She was living in an upscale neighborhood and maybe thought that murders and horrible crimes didn't happen there.   Maybe the killer posed as a delivery man or meter reader or something like that.  Maybe he even posed as a cop and flashed a badge.  

It would have been interesting to know more about Kay's past.   It seemed that she tried to marry "up" and  who knows if she  stepped on some toes on the way up the ladder.  Maybe she had a seamy past - so much left out of the story. 

Years ago I remember reading the Rolling Stone article on Robert Blake's murdered wife and there were details about her "past" written about in the article that made one think if a "victim" ever had it coming to them, it was her.  Not saying that's the case with Kay but I'm sure there was plenty of "background" they could've told us about that  maybe would've made a motive for the murder clearer. 

"if a 'victim' ever had it coming to them, it was her",

Seriously?!?

Edited February 1, 2017 by walnutqueen
because ... I can't even ...

[txhorns79]

Quote

"if a 'victim' ever had it coming to them, it was her",

Seriously?!?

From what I've read, his wife was something of a scam artist.  She would meet men, get their money, and dump them when the money was gone.  She also would lie to her boyfriends about her children being "their" children in order to get money.  This isn't to say she had death coming to her, but I would agree that she was playing a very dangerous game that put her at significant risk.  Maybe Kay had done something similar in her past.  I think they did say she met her last husband while still married to her prior husband, and that caused a lot of bad feelings.   

Edited February 1, 2017 by txhorns79

[walnutqueen]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

From what I've read, his wife was something of a scam artist.  She would meet men, get their money, and dump them when the money was gone.  She also would lie to her boyfriends about her children being "their" children in order to get money.  This isn't to say she had death coming to her, but I would agree that she was playing a very dangerous game that put her at significant risk.  Maybe Kay had done something similar in her past.  I think they did say she met her last husband while still married to her prior husband, and that caused a lot of bad feelings.   

I am aware of the circumstances of these cases.  I stand behind my objection to the notion that "she had it coming to her" or "playing with fire" is ever a justification or an excuse for MURDER.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I stand behind my objection to the notion that "she had it coming to her" or "playing with fire" is ever a justification or an excuse for MURDER.

I don't think it is an excuse, so much as an explanation.  If you prey on desperate or emotionally unstable people with your scams, it's not shocking or surprising that it may end up blowing up badly in your face.  It's a very dangerous thing to be doing.     

I would have liked to have seen more about Kay's past, since they kind of tease it may have been an issue here, but they never really delve into it.           

[starri]

And the implied judgment that anyone who has sexual interests that aren't strictly vanilla are asking for trouble bugs.

That's from the episode, not from any comments here.

[12catcrazy]

I'm sorry for my poor choice of words - Walnutqueen  is correct - and please don't think that I was saying that Mrs. Blake deserved to be murdered, it's just as txhorns said, it's more of an explanation.   Unfortunately, in Mrs. Blake's case, she finally chose to play her game with the wrong guy and it cost her life. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

And the implied judgment that anyone who has sexual interests that aren't strictly vanilla are asking for trouble bugs.

I was thinking more that they were suggesting all the kinky sex stuff was a sign that Kay was having an affair.  I just presumed (and maybe that is wrong on my part) that they would have asked the husband if he knew anything about it, and he said no. 

[Steph J]

"Guilty Until Proven Innocent." First of all, that wig. Second of all, "I haven't used that word [the n-word] in 20 years." So... 1997?

[biakbiak]

31 minutes ago, Steph J said:

"Guilty Until Proven Innocent." First of all, that wig. Second of all, "I haven't used that word [the n-word] in 20 years." So... 1997?

For reals on both accounts! I could not get over the hair and 20 years (which probably actually means less than that) is still 5 plus years after the crime and arrest!