S01.E09: Left Behind

[nksarmi]

On thesubject of Ra's, I really enjoyed how nonplussed he was about the whole situation. Like he was only mildly annoyed that these people invaded his home and then was basically "yes, you're from the future. Run along now, I'm bored. "

Eta: I agree that he was a mellow figure here that eventually goes craycray. In fact, comic speaking that tends to happen the more often you use the pit, you just low key go insane.

 

Yeah Ra's going crazy between the time we see him here and the time we see him in season three of Arrow is all I got.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say, he only really went nuts after Malcolm put it in his head that Oliver fulfilled the prophesy.  Maybe he was just really, really old and ready to die - I mean that must have been part of the whole replacement Ra's thing - that old Ra's would die, right?

 

Because while this Ra's matches up with the Ra's that Oliver first fought in 3x9 (?) - he's way more sane than the version we got late in season three. Something must have happened - it was probably Malcolm's fault. Everything is. Hell, he even reconstituted VS the time Oliver, Barry and company fought him on Arrow so we can blame the horrible future on him too.

Edited April 1, 2016 by nksarmi

[feverfew]

It was explained in some show I once watched that when paradoxes such as that occur a new timeline starts.  The idea is that whatever reasons existed for Nyssa to be named Nyssa and to be in the North China Sea in order to rescue Sara the first time around did exist and happened but once Sara has now gone back and changed it, basically a new parallel reality has formed and then continues forward.  It's akin to the idea that there is a reality where every other choice that could be made, was made time and then those consequences play out in their own timeline.  Believe it or not, it makes things for me less confusing, lol.  

 

This. The thing about a (stable) time loop is that is has to begin somewhere - so in one timeline Nyssa was in the North China Sea for reason completely unrelated to Sara, but once Sara went back in time, Nyssa will forever in her future be in the North China Sea, because Sara asked Ra's to send her there. And Sara will return to the League in 1958, name Nysse and ask for her to be send to the NCS, because she met (and trained with) Nyssa in 2007 (2008?). It's all very circular :)

 

It is a bit mind boggling, but once you accept that the future can be changed both from the past and from the future itself, it becomes a little bit easier (or not).

[romantic idiot]

Never mind.

Edited April 1, 2016 by romantic idiot

[Aeryn13]

I was entertained but even on first viewing the character work doesn`t hold up for me.

 

The whole Ray/Kendra super-sudden love affair confuses the hell out of me. Why is it there? And what purpose can it possibly serve?

 

And I was with Ray in being confuzzled how Kendra just shook off the two years like they were nothing. It`s two years, not two weeks.

 

I had a similar problem with Sara, only in reverse. I could maybe understand Sara getting so desperate that she goes back to an organization she once rather swallowed poision to get out of - and that was with a loved one being in it. But I can not buy such a desperation after two months. Seriously? Equally, I can not understand that she became a League automaton after two years. For real? Nothing about her made sense to me in the episode. 

 

Also, Ra`as Al Ghul was super-nice in comparism. What happened?

 

Now I did like the twist with Mick being Chronos. If I don`t think about logistics and time anomalies too much. Shouldn`t it be a big no-no that he has been hunting himself and thus took parts in events as both a past and future self? This creates no time-headache? The time masters sanctioned it? They are as bad as Rip and nearly as bad as Barry when it comes to that stuff.

 

I guess it`s sweet that they want to redeem him but what is their baseline here? It`s not like he was once a good person who got broken down by events. He was a murderous psychopath before so removing any Time master conditioning should do nothing more than restore him to the person he was. What they want is a complete personality overhaul.

 

Snart was badass. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Aeryn13

[tarotx]

I think Kendra has always felt slightly out of sorts in her life. It was finding Hawkgirl and the Legends mission that made her feel more complete. But she can adapt because that's pretty much what she has done her whole life.

 

Ray doesn't adapt well and it probably took him a while to find himself but when he did he went full on in his positive force. It was probably a bit too much at times for Kendra but she didn't have a lot of choices but also Ray is the kind of Guy you want to like and be with but he doesn't provoke that sense of passion. 

 

Sara believed that once the Waverider was gone it was never coming back. She believed everyone was dead. And with being stuck in time it meant she was never going to see her family again either. Why she would go back to the league is probably because their wasn't a lot of opportunity for women in  1958-especially for someone like her-a fighter and, with no life support to humanity, a killer. I think Sara liked the life of the LOA-just not the killing. Now that violence is a part of her and literally not having any family left I can see her accepting the LOA much more completely this time. 

 

I think we will understand time and what's happening with Mick/Chronos much better when we get to know more about the Vanishing point and the time masters themselves. And our team wants to reform Mick for different reasons. Rip surely wants info on the time masters-probably wants a way back to the Vanishing point. Sara wants to see that there is hope after going to the darkside. Snart wants his friend back and the other blokes are just good guys.

 

*Ugg Clearly English is my first Language since I suck at it sooo bad >.<

Edited April 2, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

I think Sara joined the league again because of her bloodlust. They made a point to have Ra's mention the herbs he gave her are helping cure her urge to kill. Joining for that reason makes sense to me. As a woman in 1958 she had very few options and if she still had the urge to hurt and kill people going to the League was her best option because they would control who she kills. 

 

Also Sara's super power is to adapt to any situation. She tried the boring housemate with Ray and Kendra and probably wanted to kill herself. So she went to a place where she could be herself. Ra's seemed a lot calmer in 1958-1960, so she probably got along with him (while also knowing what he likes and doesn't like). 

 

I completely missed that Sara said she missed Netflix while playing the game of Life with Kendra. That's what drove her to join the League again! 

 

The Ray and Kendra thing I don't get. But I can see how 2 years playing house would make them start to think of themselves as married. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Sakura12

[rubyred]

Going to the subject of Ray and Kendra.  They weren't married really (though he was going to ask her to officially ) but I'm not convinced they weren't pretending they were married since couples just living together (for two years) wasn't normal or accepted and it sounded like they had a nice social life with their neighbors. That said, I'm positive that they were not just finally sleeping together when they returned to the ship. Even at ten weeks in Sara left saying that Kendra and Ray had each other and the two year anniversary wasn't about them being stuck, it was two years of them being together and there is no way that they were sleeping in separated beds for that time.  If they'd gotten separate apartment I could maybe believe it, but they lived together and spoke of the life they'd built together. They were all the way together except for him officially asking her to marry him (though again, I think based on her showing up at his classroom and everyone knowing her, she was seen as his wife.)

 

Which is why for most of the episode my heart was breaking for Ray.  He loved her.  He'd spent two years gathering up memories and inside jokes and suddenly he finds out that none of it meant anything to Kendra.  That she had been pretending to be happy.  Even seconds before he was going to propose she agreed that she was happy they'd been left behind, to have all of that ripped away was awful!! 

 

I totally understand why Kendra was happy to return to the mission but she was either clueless or heartless to Ray as he was desperately trying to find out if anything had been real.  Suddenly it seemed like not that she'd been allowed to pick who she fell in love with but that she'd been pretending to love him in order to fit in and play apart and that was just devastating to see Ray go through.  This guy is so unlucky in love.  Anna is killed.  Felicity was IMO a rebound for them both but at a moment when he told her he loved her (and believed it in that moment) she answered his I love you with ...Jello.  Cue Kendra who he's been in a relationship for two years, wants to marry her and finds out she was faking her feelings.  Ugh, it hurt.  Really hurt watching him go through that.

Wait, what? At no time did Kendra say "thank god you're here, now I don't have to play house with this clown anymore!" Her view was more, "thank god I can go back to being WHO I AM." Note that Ray didn't even notice that she was becoming less and less Hawkgirl, because damn, wasn't life peachy keen if you were a white male in 1960!

 

I can see that Ray is supposed to be something of a social doofus but dang, it's a pet peeve when people claim they love someone when they're completely oblivious to what's going on with them. Kendra wasn't oblivious to Ray -- that's why she downplayed it, to save his feelings (which wasn't a good idea either but that's on her.) Just being a woman was enough to constrict her life in 1960. Kendra was glad to get out of 1960 because she couldn't be Hawkgirl. Ray was blissed out on a situation that basically shackled her to him, and why wouldn't a guy like that set up? Oh I know why, because he's a grown-ass man capable of an adult relationship, not one perfectly happy to live in a dream world that favors him and smothers her. If only.

 

I don't watch Arrow so I have no knowledge or interest in his romantic history, nor should I need it. But my mind is kind of blown that his (self-instigated) feelings of rejection could be considered more resonant or important than Kendra's loss of identity. And I don't even care if Kendra lives or dies!

 

TL:DR: Ray is a grown-ass man who should not have interpreted Kendra's desire to be herself as a rejection of him.

 

***

Onward: Amazing how the lack of Vandal Savage improves an episode. I am struggling to figure out why he's such a fail and have come up with 1) The name. Vandal Savage is egregiously OTT, even for a comic. 2) The Actor. So wooden, and always seems to be intoning his lines like he's learned English phonetically. Or 3) The Wig on the actor. Is he bald? If so, why not go with that instead of a wig that gives him a six-head? Distracting.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Legends Of Tomorrow Experience A Past Prologue
Sara's past with the League of Assassins comes into sharp relief.

[johntfs]

I sort of got Ray in this episode but he annoyed me as well.  He basically got to live out a version of the creepy male fantasy of being stuck on an island alone with a beautiful girl and he was mad/sad because Kendra's attitude was "Thank fucking God that we're off that island!" and he's like "Aren't you going to miss your coconut bra and palm-leaf bikini?  Also, I thought you loved that shark-ooth and seashell necklace I made you!"  Whatever inconveniences techie Ray had, at least he could take public transportation without hearing "Get to the back of the bus, n****r!"

 

I thought Jax getting pissy was funny, too.  He was like "please stop rubbing in the fact that Ray is with the only girl on the team not trying to have us executed."

[wayne67]

I sort of got Ray in this episode but he annoyed me as well.  He basically got to live out a version of the creepy male fantasy of being stuck on an island alone with a beautiful girl and he was mad/sad because Kendra's attitude was "Thank fucking God that we're off that island!" and he's like "Aren't you going to miss your coconut bra and palm-leaf bikini?  Also, I thought you loved that shark-ooth and seashell necklace I made you!"  Whatever inconveniences techie Ray had, at least he could take public transportation without hearing "Get to the back of the bus, n****r!"

 

Ray found out his girlfriend had been lying/withholding things from him for 2 years and he's at fault for being upset about that because he tried to make the best of a bad situation? How exactly does that work? 

 

Also if Kendra didn't want to be with him, she could have hooked up, shacked up with anyone else. It's not like anyone was forcing her to be with him, she chose to and the way she acted made it seemed like she using Ray because he was convenient. 

[johntfs]

Ray found out his girlfriend had been lying/withholding things from him for 2 years and he's at fault for being upset about that because he tried to make the best of a bad situation? How exactly does that work? 

 

Also if Kendra didn't want to be with him, she could have hooked up, shacked up with anyone else. It's not like anyone was forcing her to be with him, she chose to and the way she acted made it seemed like she using Ray because he was convenient. 

 

Kendra did want to be with him.  She just didn't want to be with him in a place where she was losing her wings, memories and civil rights.

Edited April 2, 2016 by johntfs

[wayne67]

Kendra did want to be with him.  She just didn't want to be with him in a place where she was losing her wings, memories and civil rights.

 

Except she didn't mention the first 2 to him during those 2 years and she never referenced the third in the episode at all. Ray's issue was that she cared about NOTHING they had accumulated in the 2 years of living together. Not a piece of jewelery, not a dress, not a piece of bric a brac; she called it all junk and acted as if it was all meaningless. 2 years of living together with someone and making memories together in a place that would be attached to stuff and none of it apparently meant anything to her, so he's within his rights to be wondering if their time together meant anything to her. 

[johntfs]

Except she didn't mention the first 2 to him during those 2 years and she never referenced the third in the episode at all. Ray's issue was that she cared about NOTHING they had accumulated in the 2 years of living together. Not a piece of jewelery, not a dress, not a piece of bric a brac; she called it all junk and acted as if it was all meaningless. 2 years of living together with someone and making memories together in a place that would be attached to stuff and none of it apparently meant anything to her, so he's within his rights to be wondering if their time together meant anything to her. 

 

He's within his rights, but I still think it's funny that the twenty-something coffee server had to be the mature emotional rock for the ten years older than her genius tech billionaire.

[wayne67]

He's within his rights, but I still think it's funny that the twenty-something coffee server had to be the mature emotional rock for the ten years older than her genius tech billionaire.

 

You mean the 2000 year old reincarnating Hawk Woman with a predestined soul mate and random offspring scattered around the world ? How is lying and with holding stuff from your partner emotionally mature ? If she was emotionally mature she would have discussed her issues with her partner and found a way to resolve it. Not hold it all inside and lash out like a teenager when questioned. 

[MDKNIGHT]

"it was probably Malcolm's fault. Everything is. Hell, he even reconstituted VS the time Oliver, Barry and company fought him on Arrow so we can blame the horrible future on him too."

Yes EVERYTHING is Malcolm's fault, Sarah's death, Dhark kidnapping Oliver Jr, global warming, the list goes on and on and yet nobody can kill him and somehow not be tainted by it, even the people who have killed hundreds without breaking a sweat. He's worse than Spike hanging around.

Ra's will always be the guy who pimped out his daughter to Oliver because people with a uterus are unworthy of being the Head of the Demon or whatever. Will never forgive him for that dick move despite the fact that I was VERY happy that Nyssa in the end saw through the crazy of WANTING to be the Head of the Demon and Peaced Out. I almost cheared. Which brings me to the WTFery of why does Sarah want to be int he League of Assassins. The first time I just figured Nyssa saved her from the island so she felt grateful and besides what were her other options? I also figured she fell in love with Nyssa as things went along so it made sense for her to join Nyssa in her "work." But under any other circumstances I have never understood why any of the rank and file join. What is in it for THEM? You train like crazy. risk your life for a dude who is basically immortal and feel honored to serve this freak. It doesn't look like you get wealth and it wouldn't really matter because when or where would you spend it? Given what we know about Rah's "goals" I can only fathom that he appeals to the wackos who would voluntarily join the Nazi party if Hitler had hated ALL nationalities and ethnic groups equally. I kind of find greed easier to understand that selflessness with no discernible gain for a violent destructive cause. I would also understand martyrdom in exchange for heaven and making the earth a better place but these mooks are killing and dying to make the earth a death pit and I don't think the afterlife enters into the equation. And these are the people (really one person) who Sarah was willing to murder her friends for. I liked the ep over all but that was a bridge too far for me motivation wise. I'm going to choose to believe that Sarah came in thinking of stealing a few herbs and learning a little more meditation to get the blood lust under control planning to slip away a little later but then Rah started with the mind whammy stuff he pulled on Oliver and she lost her grip, what with the wrongtimeitis drift that apparently time travelors are susceptible to.

[nksarmi]

I don't think there is any reason to argue the right or wrong side of Kendra and Ray - I liked and understood them both and I appreciated where they ended up.  I mean, she said "it took you so long to give up hope and when you did, I didn't want to make you feel even worse" or something to that effect.  Yes, she withheld, but she did it out of love.  Yes he was clueless, but I don't think it's because she was really miserable and he couldn't tell.  I think she just shut off the things that made her sad because she didn't think there was any way she could get her life back and she was determined to make the best out of where they ended up as he was.  I also think Ray was hurt because he associated their "life" with their "relationship" and Kendra did not.  There is no right or wrong there - it's just a difference of personality.

 

Ray seems very sentimental to me.  He's the kind of guy who probably saved the first picture they ever took together and saved every note or card she ever gave him.  To him, bringing things from their apartment symbolized their life as a couple.  Kendra seems like the type who has spent all of this life (and likely most lives) where she could pack everything she owns in the back of her car and go.  They kept tossing around this number of being killed 207 times in the last 4,000 years - if we assume that the Hawks are born as babies in each life (and I don't actually know if that's a safe assumption or not) - then their average lifespan is less than 20 years.  If we assume they made it past 20 in a few lives; they must have died really young in a few others.  Either that or nobody expected us to do that math.

 

At any rate, between the general sense of being someone whose life has been cut short 200+ times, the fact that she has lived on the run from Savage in at least a few lifetimes (the one with her son in particular), and the fact that she didn't seem real rooted any where when she showed up in Central City to begin with - I just don't think Kendra is the "let's use things as the symbol of our love" type.  She wasn't trying to be harsh on Ray or fake with him - she just didn't see things the same way he did.

 

And Ray has plenty of reason to second guess how much he meant to her.  She is someone with a "destined" mate and he clearly came to care for her as much as he did Anna.  When she told him she was glad to choose to love him - I think that was all he needed to hear.  I think they are in a happy place and I'm going to be happy for them as long as this show lets me.

Edited April 2, 2016 by nksarmi

[jhlipton]

[M]aybe she tried to start something with the nurse from the previous episode

 

Nope -- they left the town as soon as they gave up waiting for the ship.

 

I don't think there is any reason to argue the right or wrong side of Kendra and Ray

I agree -- there's right and wrong on both sides.

Ray was far more comfortable than he really should have been considering when they were.  This was not a happy, wonderful time for blacks, even putting aside Kendra's Hawkgirl issues.  On the other hand, Kendra really should have made her feelings, especially her Hawkgirl feelings, be known, that she was OK with the situation but it was far from perfect for her.

 

Iwas wondering, when they declared their love for each other,why ray didn't give her the ring.  But I just got it: it's a relic of "ownership", and something that he views with a lot more value than Kendra would.

[johntfs]

I don't think there is any reason to argue the right or wrong side of Kendra and Ray - I liked and understood them both and I appreciated where they ended up.  I mean, she said "it took you so long to give up hope and when you did, I didn't want to make you feel even worse" or something to that effect.  Yes, she withheld, but she did it out of love.  Yes he was clueless, but I don't think it's because she was really miserable and he couldn't tell.  I think she just shut off the things that made her sad because she didn't think there was any way she could get her life back and she was determined to make the best out of where they ended up as he was.  I also think Ray was hurt because he associated their "life" with their "relationship" and Kendra did not.  There is no right or wrong there - it's just a difference of personality.

 

Ray seems very sentimental to me.  He's the kind of guy who probably saved the first picture they ever took together and saved every note or card she ever gave him.  To him, bringing things from their apartment symbolized their life as a couple.  Kendra seems like the type who has spent all of this life (and likely most lives) where she could pack everything she owns in the back of her car and go.  They kept tossing around this number of being killed 207 times in the last 4,000 years - if we assume that the Hawks are born as babies in each life (and I don't actually know if that's a safe assumption or not) - then their average lifespan is less than 20 years.  If we assume they made it past 20 in a few lives; they must have died really young in a few others.  Either that or nobody expected us to do that math.

 

At any rate, between the general sense of being someone whose life has been cut short 200+ times, the fact that she has lived on the run from Savage in at least a few lifetimes (the one with her son in particular), and the fact that she didn't seem real rooted any where when she showed up in Central City to begin with - I just don't think Kendra is the "let's use things as the symbol of our love" type.  She wasn't trying to be harsh on Ray or fake with him - she just didn't see things the same way he did.

 

And Ray has plenty of reason to second guess how much he meant to her.  She is someone with a "destined" mate and he clearly came to care for her as much as he did Anna.  When she told him she was glad to choose to love him - I think that was all he needed to hear.  I think they are in a happy place and I'm going to be happy for them as long as this show lets me.

That's an aspect I hadn't considered and it's a really good point.  Ray's powers and abilities are in many ways expressed through the things he makes, like his suit and the time beacon.  Kendra's powers pretty much come from who she is or at least was.  200+ memories of lives running from Vandal Savage would very much play into shaping a person not bound to places and things.

 

I was wondering, when they declared their love for each other,why ray didn't give her the ring.  But I just got it: it's a relic of "ownership", and something that he views with a lot more value than Kendra would.

 

 

I don't know.  Kendra's still a modern 21st century girl.  I don't see her reacting to a wedding ring with disgust or dismissal.  It seems more likely that Ray wants to make sure that Kendra is still committed to him now that she's fully herself again.

Edited April 2, 2016 by johntfs

[jhlipton]

Kendra's still a modern 21st century girl.  I don't see her reacting to a wedding ring with disgust or dismissal.  It seems more likely that Ray wants to make sure that Kendra is still committed to him now that she's fully herself again.

 

A 21st century barista! LOL

 

You could be right, though.

[kismet]

So, Ray and Kendra spent two years playing house from 1958 to 1960 and never banged even once -- just sat around cooking, watching TV and playing board games.  Really ?

I'm not gonna lie, I wondered that a lot during the episode...

 

I'm pretty sure they banged plenty; that's why Kendra was surprised that Ray was moving back into his room by himself.

However, this last scene for me pretty much confirmed that they banged.... although I never want to see it ever. I still think BR does not know how to kiss on camera. And to no one's surprise CR is not much better.

Edited April 2, 2016 by kismet

[slayer2]

I love the League of Assassins but Ra's al Ghil just disappoints.

LOVE the Chronos reveal! I thought it might have been Rory when they kept mentioning he took Snart for a reason.

Ah I love me some Ra's Al Ghul, I'm one who loves Matt Nable's take. Was excited to see that he would be appearing in this ep. Loved his interactions with Sara Ta-Er Al-Safar? Also love love love that CL knows how to pronounce Ra's Al Ghul's name. She's the only one in the Arrow verse who says it correctly. Edited April 2, 2016 by slayer2

[slayer2]

That was the point. It was because of time traveling Sara that island Sara was rescued by Nyssa. Ra's did know her, he knew she was a time traveler. She's a good fighter and assassin, why would he not take her in? That's how time travel works in tv and movies.

I don't think that's the case. I think Sara changed the timeline when she went to the league of assassins in 1960. I don't think the former unaltered timeine featured Sara meeting Ra's. I think this timeline will be different which ties in with Barry's timeline changing on The Flash.

[kismet]

Perhaps if Kendra had been a barista instead of a librarian in her two years playing house with Ray should would have missed more of their life. :)

 

Snarking aside, I enjoyed the episode. It was good fun with a lot of plot holes and brain pains because of the whole time travel, but I want fun and they delivered which was nice considering the last 2 eps have been a little questionable.

 

Sara returning to the LoA made sense to me from a character and plot perspective. I enjoyed it, plus her braid game was pretty awesome, her stunts spectacular as usual. As for Ras, I never hated him from Arrow. I do think the last third of the Arrow s3 the writers completely messed up his character. But I always liked the vibe he gave off until his became a fanboy of Oliver and dressed up in the Arrow costume - which was the turning point for his character from a writing perspective. I enjoyed his vibe here, it was very chill yet lethal at the same time, almost Charles Manson like which is how I always envisioned Ras a buddy like figure with the ability to kill, but would prefer to just have other people do his dirty work. LoA is a cult and cults generally need to have charismatic magnetic personality with a little crazy to keep everyone under control. With the proper writing the actor playing Ras can capture that, with bad writing he just feels like a bad casting choice.

 

Ray/Kendra playing house made sense from a plot and Ray perspective. I understand why Kendra went along with it and I do think she started to feel something for Ray. I know this is going to sound shallow, but I really hoped that the time away would have fixed her blonde streak, which for me is so ugly and does nothing for her. I felt a little bad for Ray, but I think that was the point. That being said, I still don't get the couple. For me they are kind of like white noise and a blank wall, but other people like them and they don't bother me, so if they continue to bang away in the newly designed bedrooms, I have no problem with it. Although I must admit I paid more attention to the lovely beach scene on the wall then them during their big scene, so at least I had a nice back-drop to look at.

 

Didn't a lot of us here and on other sites predict Mick as Kronos? I thought that was pretty much a revealed twist. It was a good twist either way, I do enjoy it. Not sure how the rehabilitation will go, but I think they needed to do something to break the Cold is the leader & Heat the sidekick dynamic that was happening. Now they are all on equal footing. I do agree that perhaps he is Kronos 2.0 and not the Kronos we met in the Pilot or earlier episode. I could see the time master making sure to take advantage of their knowledge of time to find Mick when he was alone and replace their fallen soldier with someone from Rip's team.

 

Stein, Jax & Rip had some good lines and character interactions without taking over the plots so all good on that front. I am amazed and grateful that the writers have consistently managed to balance their cast while rotating the plot spotlight in way that does not forget those that are not directly involved in the A or B plot episode after episode. Kudos to them :)

Edited April 2, 2016 by kismet

[Lokiberry]

i just received the Captain Cold action figure as an early birthday gift (not the funko pop one, the other one), and it comes with four extra hands, for grasping things I guess. I just thought that was ironic.

 

I enjoyed this episode a lot. I thought it was very much in character for Ray, the ultimate boy scout, to settle in and make the best of his situation. I understand why Kendra would not be happy in 1960, but I did feel for Ray when she was so happy to leave it all behind without a single look back.

 

I think Ra's problem with Sara was that she was the perfect little league member the first time he met her, but when he sent Nyssa out to rescue her in 2008, she ended up laughing in his face, not following the rules, and sleeping with his daughter. He was disappointed. And crazy.

[slayer2]

Random pet peeve. I never know what people mean to say when they used nonplussed since it now means both confused/disconcerted AND not disconcerted/unperturbed. Very frustrating that the meaning has become both in the twenty years since my ninth grade vocab quiz.;)

Omg!! Get out of my brain!! I just spent like 10minutes thinking deeply about this!

[slayer2]

Kendra did want to be with him. She just didn't want to be with him in a place where she was losing her wings, memories and civil rights.

Thiiiiiiiis!!! You can't exactly handwave civil rights. What woman of colour would ever want to be stuck in the States in 1958 when she could be in the future, even without factoring in the loss of her powers and identity.

[thuganomics85]

Credit to everyone who called Chronos being Mick.  I figured that was happening as soon as the previews highlighted both of them, but I still loved the reveal and how it truly shook Snart to the core.  Despite his bravo, I think Snart really does consider Mick to be his closet ally and even friend, and seeing that had to throw him off.  And, of course, Mick threatening to kill Lisa over and over again.  For all of his major flaws, Snart always was loyal to Lisa, and that would clearly be his worst nightmare.  And vengeful, brainwashed Mick was a blast.  I continue to be surprised over how I've actually been enjoying Dominic Purcell in this.  He just brings the right amount of intensity and menace to the role (along with the dark humor in the past.)  Curious to see where they are heading with him now.

 

Sara returning to the LOA was an interesting approach.  I can buy her running back to what she feels comfortable with, after thinking they've been abandoned for good.  As for Ra's return, I still find Matt Nable underwhelming, but he worked better here.  Then again, I think that is because it was only one episode.  Nable isn't bad, but he just comes off like an episode of the week antagonist, which was a problem on Arrow, when Ra's is suppose to be the ultimate baddie of the season.  Not to mention Nable was following charismatic powerhouses like John Barrowman and Manu Bennett from past seasons.  Still, he was fine here.  Even laughed at his understated reactions to everything, because Ra's was probably like "Two guys who can transform into a flaming man?  Interesting, but still not as cool as my immortal hotub!"

 

Ray and Kendra: felt like both of them were responsible for their "issues."  Ray should have been able to understand better why Kendra wasn't going to be fully happy in a place like the 60s, where racism and sexism was pretty much at an all-time high, and she couldn't use her abilities like she could before.  He really needed to realize that he was lucky as hell to be a white male at that time.  On the other hand, yeah, Kendra could have spoken up much earlier.  Ray is dense, but usually once you spell it out for him (or lightly smack him on the head), he gets the message.  Kendra should trust Ray more then she did that he'd understand.  But, whatever.  They're all good again.  Even if it involved everyone else getting annoyed at them because they hashed it out while they were all in a Nana Padart dungeon.

 

Martin and Jax pretty much took a backseat in this one.

 

As with most episodes, the best part were all the Sara fight scenes and seeing Caity Lotz pretty much do all her stunts herself.

 

Fun enough return, but I'm still not that all excited over them going after Vandal Savage; this time in the future; because I'm sure he'll continue to be a bore and they will find some stupid way not to kill him... again.

[lion10]

It was cute to see Ray, Sara, and Kendra playing house together.  How much is Sara meeting Ra's going to fuck up the timeline?

[johntfs]

It was cute to see Ray, Sara, and Kendra playing house together.  How much is Sara meeting Ra's going to fuck up the timeline?

It seemed to complete the timeline.

 

Extra nostalgia from Ray.

 

Ray: Remember when we had those s'mores?

Kendra: You mean when the KKK burned a cross on our lawn?

Ray: Those were goood s'mores...

[rubyred]

IMO think the Ray/Kendra thing suffered from the show trying too hard to be cute and have things both ways. If they hadn't already established in the previous episode that Kendra's (and Jax's) brownness did not go unnoticed in 1958, it would have been easier to handwave Ray being clueless about what Kendra's life was like in 1958 outside the door of their apartment. So it was jarring to see him happy as a clam and then bummed about leaving.

 

The writing didn't help, it was the classic "romantic miscommunication" trope, because men and women, they don't speak the same language hardy har. Paraphrasing:

Ray: "Don't you miss  ANYthing about our life there?" (Passive aggressive code for *hint, hint, nudge, nudge, say you love me -- you don't love meeeee!")

Kendra: "I don't miss anyTHING" (misses the coded message, responds literally: I do not miss girdles, tuna noodle casserole, and the Game of Life).

 

Obvious exchanges like this are what gives romantic subplots a bad name. The audience knows what's going on, but it's a timewaster that distracts from the main action, not an enjoyable interlude. But I may be too cynical. I have zero interest in the romantic life of any of the LoT characters, except Cold.

[jhlipton]

Obvious exchanges like this are what gives romantic subplots a bad name.

 

Obvious (stating only what's on the surface and not what's really important) and oblivious (missing the subtext that the other person isn't saying) exchanges are the curse of romcoms.

[tessaray]

It was interesting reading all the comments about Ray and Kendra.  I just assumed that Ray's assimilation into the "I Love Lucy" era was the way he manifested the "time travel losing your grip" thing, though I was only really paying attention to Sara/Cold/Mick.  I should probably watch it again.  

[johntfs]

I liked Snart binging the asshole in the first bit of the episode.

 

Snart: We have to go back for the girls.

 

????: And Ray.

 

Snart:  Like I said.

[Sakura12]

I read a review that said Sara was the best villain of the episode because she knew to separate Firestorm, took Atom's suit and looked them all dead in the eye and told them they were going to be executed.

 

Vandal who? With Mick and Sara against them the Legends team would all be dead. The two of them are more threatening than he has ever been. 

[jhlipton]

With Mick and Sara against them the Legends team would all be dead. The two of them are more threatening than he has ever been.

Either of them by themselves are nearly enough to take down the Legends. If it weren't for plot-armor, these guys would be goners.

[BkWurm1]

. Which brings me to the WTFery of why does Sarah want to be int he League of Assassins. The first time I just figured Nyssa saved her from the island so she felt grateful and besides what were her other options? I also figured she fell in love with Nyssa as things went along so it made sense for her to join Nyssa in her "work." But under any other circumstances I have never understood why any of the rank and file join. What is in it for THEM? [snip] And these are the people (really one person) who Sarah was willing to murder her friends for. I liked the ep over all but that was a bridge too far for me motivation wise. I'm going to choose to believe that Sarah came in thinking of stealing a few herbs and learning a little more meditation to get the blood lust under control planning to slip away a little later but then Rah started with the mind whammy stuff he pulled on Oliver and she lost her grip, what with the wrongtimeitis drift that apparently time travelors are susceptible to.

 

I do think the brain washing that Ra's pulls plus Rips Time shift thing is to blame for Sara's change in loyalty, so that issues I can hand wave away.  As for why she went back to the league, one thing we don't know is how long she'd been there.  We know when she left Kendra and Ray, but not when she reached Nanda Parbat.  For all we know she tried to find a place she could fit in and it was a disaster.  She has the blood lust problem but she also lives with a lot of guilt and if she thought she was losing control completely, I can see her going to the LoA thinking either they could help her or at least she'd be put out of her misery. 

 

 

 

IMO think the Ray/Kendra thing suffered from the show trying too hard to be cute and have things both ways. If they hadn't already established in the previous episode that Kendra's (and Jax's) brownness did not go unnoticed in 1958, it would have been easier to handwave Ray being clueless about what Kendra's life was like in 1958 outside the door of their apartment. So it was jarring to see him happy as a clam and then bummed about leaving.

 

The writing didn't help, it was the classic "romantic miscommunication" trope, because men and women, they don't speak the same language hardy har. Paraphrasing:

Ray: "Don't you miss  ANYthing about our life there?" (Passive aggressive code for *hint, hint, nudge, nudge, say you love me -- you don't love meeeee!")

Kendra: "I don't miss anyTHING" (misses the coded message, responds literally: I do not miss girdles, tuna noodle casserole, and the Game of Life).

 

Obvious exchanges like this are what gives romantic subplots a bad name. The audience knows what's going on, but it's a timewaster that distracts from the main action, not an enjoyable interlude. But I may be too cynical. I have zero interest in the romantic life of any of the LoT characters, except Cold.

You're not wrong.  Ray was asking if there wasn't anything she'd miss about "our life" and she only thought about the things. So yeah, they were speaking at cross purposes but it felt like more than a miscommunication since she didn't just distance herself from their time and things but from them.  She was back on the ship and it was "I" feel and think and couldn't wait and don't want anything of that old life.  And then we find out that in the seconds before his proposal, she lied to him about actually thinking getting left behind was a good thing.  She didn't have to do that.  She could have easily said she wouldn't go that far but that she was grateful it brought them together or something. 

 

 The lie about her complete happiness brought it to a higher level of concealment for me.  It made every action and everything she would have told him subject to second guessing.    I know from the end that it was a miscommunication but it felt like the brush off.  Like a request for a reset to just go back to the way things were before, like they were back to being teammates in a very casual relationship.  And it seemed like Ray kept trying to clarify if the "us" they'd become meant anything to Kendra and the answer seemed to be, no, hence Ray giving her space. 

 

Kendra's options in 1960 were limited and so I never felt like she was hateful in her actions or deceptive, just not that invested.  And that's the feeling I'm still taking with me.  She cares, even loves him, but to the same degree?  Like I said, I need to be further convinced.   

Kendra seems like the type who has spent all of this life (and likely most lives) where she could pack everything she owns in the back of her car and go.  They kept tossing around this number of being killed 207 times in the last 4,000 years - if we assume that the Hawks are born as babies in each life (and I don't actually know if that's a safe assumption or not) - then their average lifespan is less than 20 years.  If we assume they made it past 20 in a few lives; they must have died really young in a few others.  Either that or nobody expected us to do that math.

 

At any rate, between the general sense of being someone whose life has been cut short 200+ times, the fact that she has lived on the run from Savage in at least a few lifetimes (the one with her son in particular), and the fact that she didn't seem real rooted any where when she showed up in Central City to begin with - I just don't think Kendra is the "let's use things as the symbol of our love" type.  She wasn't trying to be harsh on Ray or fake with him - she just didn't see things the same way he did.

 

Kendra on Flash was introduced as having lived with her very normal family all her life in Wisconsin and that her move to Central City was her first attempt to strike out on her own, so while I could see her past memories changing her viewpoint, she didn't have them as an influence in her life until very recently.  She hadn't previously came off as an unsentimental person, just the opposite, she met her grown up son from a few lifetimes back and loved him in a day.  So her rejection of every part of the life she had for two years with Ray felt like a bigger statement than just she liked to travel light.  It seemed to be her putting an unpleasant time behind her and Ray was entwined in every thing in that apartment. 

 

In two years you know he gave her things and bought her presents, things he's want her to treasure but there was no piece of jewelry or romantic note or photo of them that she ever wanted to see or hold again? Even people that can pack up their life in two suitcases carry things that mean something to them.  But two years of sharing her love and life with Ray and nothing held a special memory or place in her heart?  I still can't fathom it.  Especially since the didn't show Sara having anything unpleasant going on in her life.  She looked and acted happy.  We heard about the friends and neighbors that accepted her. We saw a class room of adult students looking on at them as a couple with affection and support.  And probably envy.   

 

If I have to write in the problems she'd probably experience in order to understand her reactions, then something is wrong.  All we got was a post mortem that told us that she'd never been able to be herself that last two years and she was super pleased to shed all of that and that she'd concealed her real feelings from Ray.  Who loved her and from her reaction, couldn't help wonder if she'd been playing a part this whole time because it was easiest for everyone and staying close to him was making the best of a bad situation...but one she was ready to put behind her now that she had the chance.   

 

I guess I'm harping less on right or wrong but why I thought Ray had good reason to think he wasn't jumping to conclusions. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[johntfs]

I think the reactions of both Ray and Kendra were understandable.  Ray had become a highly respected professor with a beautiful, loving "wife" and had become content with his lot.  Kendra was miserable what with losing her powers and memories along with likely being treated as "less than" in that era of time.  When the Waverider arrived, Ray was bidding a fond farewell to a life he'd enjoyed and wanted to have a memento of that time.  Kendra was utterly relieved at being released from a hellish prison and no, really did not want any keepsakes from her cell, even though she really liked her "cell mate."

 

I did like that Ra's was shown to be almost the complete opposite of the "all accounts" that discussed him.  Far more than Vandal Savage, Ra's really embodies the patient, next-level chessmaster who has truly learned from his long life.  I think Ra's easily recognized Sara's previous training and symptoms of bloodlust but chose not to push the issue.  When the team came to get Sara, he likely decided to create a crucible to find the truth about Sara both for himself and Sara.  I suspect that even if Rip hadn't known about the League's laws, Ra's would have offered the combat anyway. 

 

Another point is Rip's skepticism on joining the League to find peace.  From the various named people who have joined the League (Malcolm, Maseo, Sara(the second time)), they've all joined for exactly that reason.  They've been people so discontent or wounded by life that the only solace they can find is to serve death.

[Potanical Pardon]

I really liked the reveal of Chronos as Mick. It was one of those things that I never saw coming, and I feel like an idiot for not anticipating it. Wentworth Miller did a great job with Snart's emotions. I think in all the things I've seen him in over the years, I have never seen him look more shocked than when Mick took off the mask. I love their dynamic. Even after Mick threatened to kill his sister multiple times, Snart still said told the team not to kill Mick in Nanda Parbat. Not sure how I feel about members of the team being in the past as long as they were. They're going to screw stuff up worse than Barry Allen.

 

I felt like an idiot too. Didn't see it coming at all, but once the helmet came off I was like "Geez. How did I not...?" ESPECIALLY because Chronos looks and acts nothing like comics!Chronos but does look everything aesthetically comics!Heatwave.

 

Now, all that has to happen to complete reformed Heatwave is for him to wear the goggles from before but keep the "Chronos" outfit.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[Cekrypton1]

Catching up here: Routh has never looked more like Christopher Reeve than when he was teaching class. Even the voice he used--uncanny,

[Starfish35]

A much better episode than the prior one.  Sara returns to the League, Ray and Kendra make a life together until the Waverider suddenly returns, and Chronos/Mick kidnaps Snart.

The thing is...Ray and Kendra were apparently married, for all intents and purposes, for two years, and I don’t blame Ray for being disconcerted when it seemed (to him) like Kendra just wanted to act like it never happened.  I think the scene at the end, though, is why I was kind of rooting for them to make it.  Kendra says it herself....for the first time, she gets to choose, not have it all decided for her by the whole “destiny” thing.  Unfortunately as soon as Carter reappears, she’ll change her mind, but at this point in time at least, I was hoping for the “we choose our own fate” angle to win out over “predestined soulmates.”  It would be interesting to know when exactly they decided to write her out, and how much that dictated the way the story went in the last few episodes of the season.

The big reveal - Chronos is Mick!  And wow, I’d forgotten how dark he was at this point, threatening to kill Lisa over and over again.   And Leonard - freezing and breaking off his own hand to get free, super badass move.  

Still not fond of this casting for Ra’s, but he’s not quite as annoying in this episode as he was in season three of Arrow.  And while it is one of their poorer casting choices IMO, it’s not nearly as bad as Casper Crump’s Vandal Savage, so....all things in perspective.

Young!Talia was obviously cast long before Lexa Doig became adult!Talia on Arrow.  I always wished she and Sara could have met, since they apparently had some acquaintance here.  

[MarkHB]

21 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

It would be interesting to know when exactly they decided to write her out, and how much that dictated the way the story went in the last few episodes of the season.

Honestly, my gut feeling is that Ciara Renee is much more interested in being a New York stage actress than in West Coast film & TV production. She may have only wanted a 1-year contract (which could explain why Hawkman was such a stiff... they needed someone who would do the 1-year thing).

[Sakura12]

I liked getting a little glimpse of what League Sara was like since we are not going to get any more background on her. Ra's was much better on this episode then he was on Arrow. He also seemed nicer since he just let Sara go even though he seemed very fond of her. Enough to tell his daughter to learn from her. It is too bad we never had adult Talia meet Sara. 

I did feel bad for Ray when Kendra acted like she didn't care about the life they made in the 1950's. But I get it they were stuck so she made do that didn't mean she didn't like being with him. While I never really hated their relationship it was just a waste since we knew Kendra would go back to Carter eventually. But he's such a downgrade from Ray. It makes me feel for her that she's stuck with that creep forever. 

And our reveal that Mick was Chronos. Yeah, he was really dark threatening to make Leonard watch him kill his sister over and over again. And Leonard freezing his own hand to escape and help the team. He really was starting to become a hero.