S05.E06: The Panic In Central Park

[DianeDobbler]

Sweet Summer, now that you mention it, I think it's been two seasons since Shoshanna told the other three they haven't accomplished much in the four years since college, making them each 26. They should be 28 now. No way is Marnie 25 1/2. Maybe we were meant to take that as a lie, with the 1/2 her concession to the lie.

[Accidental Martyr]

When Hannah was in Iowa last season didn't she say she was 25? In the episode at the party there was a girl who was upset about something a guy had done or said and Hannah said something like, "I'm 25 years old. I've seen a lot of stuff and I'll help get you through this."

[heatherchandler]

I've never heard of a heroin addict gaining weight.

  

Oh, they exist. Sadly I know this from knowing one.

The part is written for Williams. I think she does a great job with it.

I am not a fan of Williams. I just feel like I can see her script as she is acting, like I can imagine the words written out. I don't feel that way when I see someone who has talent. She does not sell it. I feel like there is a fine line between good acting and terrible acting and she is not good.

I haven't commented in this forum before but the disconnect between what I saw on screen in this episode and what I think Lena Dunham wanted us to see was, for me, astonishing.  

 

Worthless.  And for the first time, really, I think Dunham wrote an episode devoid of any truth, emotional or otherwise.

I completely agree. Lena said something on the after show about how she wrote this episode in a "fever dream" and if I hear one more pretentious, precious person use that saying I will scream.

I find the title try-hard. She saw the movie Panic in Needle Park and ripped it off a little. I just did not feel a thing here.

[Accidental Martyr]

When Hannah was in Iowa last season didn't she say she was 25? In the episode at the party there was a girl who was upset about something a guy had done or said and Hannah said something like, "I'm 25 years old. I've seen a lot of stuff and I'll help get you through this."

Found it. Season 4 Episode 2

"It's just I've seen a lot of things. I'm 25 years old and I'm here to help you, all right?"

Edited March 31, 2016 by Accidental Martyr

[Hecate7]

Turning Desi into an obnoxious, clingy, co-dependent crybaby just so it made more sense for Marnie to step out with Charlie and then leave him by frankly saying "I don't want to be married to you" seems pat. Even Marnie's S1 break-up with Charlie -- Charlie found Hannah's diary, got upset, broke up with Marnie (which was bullshit on his part), Marnie begged him to take her back, and after listing everything he wanted her to do while having sex, Marnie hit her head and realized she really didn't want to be with Charlie. Even though Marnie was routinely obnoxious to him, in the end she looked levelheaded for breaking up while he looked whiny.

 

Compare that to Marnie and Hannah's fight when they decided not to room together. I didn't feel like the writers immolated either character for the sake of splitting them apart. Hannah's...Hannah and Marnie's...Marnie. Both of them were right and full of shit in different parts, but together they just didn't click anymore.

 

Actually, if you paid any attention to Desi when they first introduced him, there were plenty of clues. Nobody really "turns into" someone else, but people do behave differently depending on the degree of intimacy they have with someone. A friend who constantly cusses at other cars on the road might never cuss in front of his Mom or his boss--it's all about boundaries. Desi has always had terrible boundaries, just like everyone else on the show. And a lot of people drop all pretense around someone they sleep with regularly. Desi stopped trying to impress Marni. He stopped caring what she thinks. That's pretty normal for men in relationships. So, as a girl, what you see at first is a guy's best side, while he conceals everything else. The clues are there, though.

 

Desi was ALWAYS clingy--men who have to have multiple girlfriends almost always are--they need someone all the time. I don't think we ever saw a codependent side of Desi. Marnie's not a drug addict or an alcoholic, is she? I think Marnie's the codependent--she seems to "need" a drug addict. Charlies seems to have been one all along, and if you look at Desi's disappearances and weird bravado, and the whole way he proposed to Marnie last season, and the wildly irresponsible way he spends money, those are all consistent with a drug addict, as are Desi's "crybaby" behavior and clinginess once she's "his" and not just some girl he thinks is pretty. His behavior is fully consistent with a guy who is high sometimes, and then coming down off of a high and too emotionally vulnerable or tired to cope with things in a more adult way. Of course if you don't live with that guy, you never see that side of him. You only see it, if you see him every day, at all different times of the day or night.

 

Charlie was very different, but Dunham made his behavior feasible.

 

I personally wrote Marnie off as a complete jerk when she manipulated Charlie into getting back with her only to turn right around and dump him. And I think he got back with her for revenge and the grilled pizza incident was simply him getting revenge on her. I don't believe the dad's suicide story, although it's perfectly believable. His voice was so cold when he said "I told you why," referring to why he left her, that I think he was referring to the fact that he didn't love her and "never had." Ie, he really hadn't--he had loved the person he imagined her to be, before he read Hannah's diary and realized Marnie was dissing him to her friends. MMV, but I didn't think Charlie did look whiny at all, nor did Marnie look level-headed, in that relationship. She looked like kind of a creep to me. Ditto the breakup with Hannah--that made both girls look like jerks. It looked like Marnie ditching Hannah because Hannah no longer had guaranteed money coming in, but expecting Hannah to take her in the minute she had troubles of her own.

 

I have always enjoyed the way the characters on this show don't have to be perfect, or even sympathetic. They depict the parts of our personalities we're trying to outgrow as we get older.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hecate7

[jenh526]

I haven't commented in this forum before but the disconnect between what I saw on screen in this episode and what I think Lena Dunham wanted us to see was, for me, astonishing.  

Marnie was awful.  Selfish and self-centered, even moreso than usual, and then with a smile on her face and a knife in her heart, proceeded to cut Desi to shreds.  I'm no Desi fan - the guy is full of shit.  But Marnie is full of shit and overflowing with it, topped off with an odious sense of self-regard that is completely undeserved.

She JUST married the guy and because she gets a glimpse of an old lover, spends the night with him, she dumps her husband?

 

Worthless.  And for the first time, really, I think Dunham wrote an episode devoid of any truth, emotional or otherwise.  

 

I'm not sure exactly what Lena wanted us to see from this... that Charlie's downfall helped propel Marnie to make the wise, mature decision of cutting Desi out of her life? I am also conflicted about this episode, but the disconnect for me was in Marnie's experience of her night out with Charlie, someone who clearly was in dire straits. She supposedly was in love with this man at some point, and yet she was unable to see any of the clues that all of us saw that said, hey, this guy's in trouble. No, she was too wrapped up in the fantasy, the joy ride, her own little bubble to see that here was someone who needed help. Then at the end when she found his needle, she was angry, presumably because he just burst her fantasy bubble. No concern expressed, and she just left him there. And then went home to Desi and cut him out of her life with no regard either. Starting to wonder if these "girls" have any shred of humanity whatsoever. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by jenh526

[Chewy101]

I always thought Marnie was a desperate monster. Nothing but opportunities... But Lena's choice to destroy a good thing she had working in a character (Charlie), that

could actually be good for Marnie, is so stupid. Why is it that Lena's goal is to make everyone in the cast pick the most disrespectful and most insulting choice ever. News for you, Lena... SOME people actually grow up and find purpose, so stop trying to make everyone fail and wax poetic about it. I mean, All the little assholes only deserve that much, but it's so depressing. She shreds every character.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Chewy101

[qtpye]

Yeah, as much as I hate Desi, Marnie's attitude towards her marriage was horrible.  She chose to marry this man and she had some clue about how flaky he was.

 

The fact that she could so casually cheat on him and dump him was strange.

 

I think Marnie and Hannah are each other soul mates.  They need each other to balance their weird tendencies.  However, unlike most soul mate type of friendships, they really can not stand each other a lot of the time. 

[Thinbalina]

I didn't think it was that awful. Maybe I just have low expectations? I'm glad Charlie's drug use didn't send Marnie running back to Desi, as I thought it might make her be like, "this is what my life should be", and Marnie was my favorite in season 1. And she's sort of back to being that. I don't know. I will sit alone in my little boat by myself. 

 

I'll sit with you!

[AmandaPanda]

I used to love Marnie, too. She was definitely my favorite in season 1. I liked seeing her adventures this week. 

 

When she started talking to the cashier at the boutique about how much life she has experienced, I really wanted the woman to punch Marnie in the face. Seriously. Get over yourself.

 

As usual, I loved all the music in this episode.

[represent]

Yeah, as much as I hate Desi, Marnie's attitude towards her marriage was horrible.  She chose to marry this man and she had some clue about how flaky he was.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, he knew she was flaky too, to the point of he thinks she'll get herself murdered. She cheated and then went home and asked for a divorce on the same day. Which is better than crawling back in bed with him and playing house after it all IMO. And worse possibly exposing him to whatever she could have picked up from the heroine addict. These two just weren't a real couple worth fighting for to me, so I'm just glad it's over. Yeah, next, cause there was never anything to root for here IMO.

 

Then at the end when she found his needle, she was angry, presumably because he just burst her fantasy bubble. No concern expressed, and she just left him there. And then went home to Desi and cut him out of her life with no regard either. 

 

 

There is just no way that I expect flaky, no sense of the world, absolutely no instincts Marnie,  to stick around with a heroine addict who I'm not sure either of them ever truly were in love, and then worry about Desi who is equally responsible and as fucked up as she is...She is not the evil wench who led him on and has some evil power and more control than him. They are both cut from the same fucked up cloth and I DID NOT feel sorry for him at all. I'll just miss him because his drama and crying were hilarious. 

 

"You recoiled from my touch."  LOL, gotta love it, it's funny.

 

It was good episode in that she could finally admit that she's too fucked up to stick with Desi or anyone for that matter.

 

Good luck to Desi and good luck to Charlie, but she's out. I say good for her, one needs to save themselves at the end of the day. You can have support, but the buck in the end will stop with you. 

 

I don't find her selfish for leaving both behind. Desi was alive, bye.

 

Actually what is selfish is to be as fucked up as she is and to keep getting involved in relationships with people who are as damaged as she. 

 

The only thing to be truly thankful for is that she's still alive and she didn't procreate with any of those men.

 

She needs to get her shit together and as someone who is pro-woman, and self preservation first before you can stick around and pick the Desi's and Charlie's of the world up off the floor, I wish her luck.

 

Poor Desi and poor Charlie, over poor Marnie, is a no for me. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by represent

[lucindabelle]

Table for one I led the episode and thought alison was amazing in it, both acting and in looks. Everything made sense to me. Desi was always a jerk... He showed his clinginess when he cried about being kicked out when clementine found out about him and Marnie. So I find his evolution utterly plausible. He uses sensitivi as a weapon, he's a narcissist.

And I think Marnie was very mature for calling quits on a marriage that should not have happened in the first place. Desi had cold feet. So did she. This wasn't a mature love but an attempt to follow a script in their heads. Why drag it out? To spare his feelings? I truly don't understand how Marnie being honest about their relationship is cruel. Frankly if they were catholic they could probably even have it annulled. I was pleasantly surprised that her reveal was not that she did love Desi but that she not only didn't but had to figure things out. Desi was still wanting to cling to a bullshit illusion of their relationship and she was NOT. Brava.

[SoWindsor]

I can't stop thinking about this episode and I was riveted. I don't get the Alison Williams hate -- she's great, especially in this episode and opposite Christopher Abbott.

The music was perfect too. The montage of them at dinner with Tied up by Casey Veggies captured the fantasy perfectly.

Same goes for Lia ices little marriage when Marnie was under water.

There was an ominous feeling throughout and you knew something bad was going down but the writing and acting and music kept you along for the ride.

Fantastic!

[stagmania]

Surprised to see how divisive this episode was. Put me in the boat with those who really liked it. It's the most I've enjoyed a Marnie story, maybe ever.

 

I've always thought the male characters on this show were well-developed. Adam and Ray, in particular, are among the more interesting characters I've seen on TV in recent times, and they feel very authentic and fully realized to me. I don't think that a show called Girls is even obligated to do as good a job as they have with their men, but it's clear that the creators value those characters.

[grumpypanda]

I'm curious as to why everyone assumes Charlie was shooting up heroin? I just figured he was shooting coke since that's what he was selling and he was super hyper throughout the entire episode.

Now granted, my knowledge of heroin comes from episodes of Intervention but I've always thought heroin made you mellow not manic.

I guess it doesn't really matter what he's shooting but I don't get why they had to make Charlie an iv drug user to begin with. Wouldn't snorting coke, dealing it and living in a shit hole be bad enough?

Edited April 3, 2016 by grumpypanda

[Hecate7]

I'm curious as to why everyone assumes Charlie was shooting up heroin? I just figured he was shooting coke since that's what he was selling and he was super hyper throughout the entire episode.

Now granted, my knowledge of heroin comes from episodes of Intervention but I've always thought heroin made you mellow not manic.

I guess it doesn't really matter what he's shooting but I don't get why they had to make Charlie an iv drug user to begin with. Wouldn't snorting coke, dealing it and living in a shit hole be bad enough?

 

 

People who do heroine also do cocaine, because heroine makes you too mellow, and it makes you not care about anything else. Cocaine peps you up and makes you have a really big ego, which allows you to do things like walk around.

[grumpypanda]

People who do heroine also do cocaine, because heroine makes you too mellow, and it makes you not care about anything else. Cocaine peps you up and makes you have a really big ego, which allows you to do things like walk around.

I suppose Charlie could be doing both. I'll admit I've done coke in my life but I've never touched heroin and I've never really been around anyone on it. Going by my experiences with coke, Charlie seemed typical of someone who's coked up just by his hyper and impulsive behavior.

Again, I guess it really doesn't matter what he's supposed to be shooting up because shooting up anything is pretty horrible.

Edited April 3, 2016 by grumpypanda

[AmandaPanda]

I assumed it was heroin based on the supplies that Marnie found. It looked like a needle and some sort of thing to tie off his arm. My knowledge of drugs is pretty much limited to what I see on TV, but I've never seen anyone shoot cocaine intravenously.

[RedDelicious]

The feet thing wasn't that big of a deal for me - they took the subway back to Charlie's apartment and she walked home from there.  It's not like she walked from Manhattan back to Brooklyn.  What grossed me out was falling into the pond.  I know it was done on a sound stage, but if that had really happened, the pond water would have been smelly and polluted and she would have wound up with major conjunctivitis (and god knows what else).

 

Side note:  Similar scene - let's not forget SJP did the central park splash for SatC (and cut her foot on a broken bottle IRL) but her post pond shower took place in much fancier surroundings ;)

[kitkat343]

 

Why doesn't Girls show any functional marriages? Both Jessa and Marnie have been married and divorced quickly. It's all starter marriages. Can one of these girls have a working, healthy relationship/marriage lasting longer than a few months?

 

I don't think any of the girls current maturity level would indicate that they are even remotely capable of being in a functional relationship.  Hannah doesn't understand why she needs to wear underwear when she is teaching hormonal adolescents in a short skirt, and Marnie just cheated on her husband of a few weeks with an IV drug user.  Jesse is totally irresponsible, and Shoshana is living in an adorable dream world in her head.  I think Ray is the only character who could have a functional marriage if he finds a stable, supportive partner.

 

Side note:  Similar scene - let's not forget SJP did the central park splash for SatC (and cut her foot on a broken bottle IRL) but her post pond shower took place in much fancier surroundings ;)

I was actually annoyed they did both the central park splash and the marine walking around barefoot in the same episode, since SJP also had her shoes robbed on SATC and walked barefoot.  It seemed odd to have two similar things to SATC in this episode.

Edited April 6, 2016 by kitkat343

[DangerousMinds]

The graffiti in the background, when Marnie and Charlie were first talking, was beautiful.

I loved how the sales person in the shop just stopped listening to Marnie.

I've never heard of a heroin addict gaining weight.

Chris Farley, John Belushi.

[Evangeline]

I've walked barefoot in San Francisco before (heels plus hills are not an easy mix!), so that didn't faze me.  The pond was kind of horrifying though.

There's a line between heroin and coke, so I get Marnie's reaction.  Everyone does coke, no one does heroin. That is to say, among my close friends over the years (a small group), I can think of at least 3 of my friends who have done coke, and it's most likely more than that. But heroin is unheard of and would be shocking.

[chocolatine]

I've walked barefoot in San Francisco before (heels plus hills are not an easy mix!), so that didn't faze me. The pond was kind of horrifying though.

Wow! I just moved to SF a month ago, and it's the filthiest city ever - much more so than NYC, IMO. I'd rather walk in 5-inch heels for 10 hours than let my bare feet touch the ground. YMMV, of course. (and yes, I use too many abbreviations)

There's a line between heroin and coke, so I get Marnie's reaction. Everyone does coke, no one does heroin. That is to say, among my close friends over the years (a small group), I can think of at least 3 of my friends who have done coke, and it's most likely more than that. But heroin is unheard of and would be shocking.

I think it depends on location and perhaps socio-economic factors. I have family in suburban Detroit, and heroin is a huge problem there among the 20-somethings. My aunt's stepson and several of her friends' kids died from heroin overdoses in recent years.

Edited April 12, 2016 by chocolatine

[Misty79]

I felt this episode conveyed so well that moment when you "wake up". I've experienced a night very similar to that (many years ago) and it was so revelatory. Everything was different afterwards. Props to the writers.

[DianeDobbler]

Add Phillip Seymour Hoffman to list of addicts who gained weight.

[beeble]

I will miss Desi's ridiculousness. He's pretty hilarious as a character.(As a human, he's awful).

 

But Charlie! I want to know about his fall - Christopher Abbott did a wonderful job here. I was just enthralled by how much Charlie had changed for the worse, and how Marnie could see it but preferred to bury her head in the sand. I used to find Charlie so freaking obnoxious in his preciousness. So many lost souls on this show.

 

Marnie's next plot line: dealing with ringworm, Hep C, and an eating disorder. That girl is not healthy skinny. I don't mean to shame AW but crap almighty, she looked like she had literally been starving. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

I lived in SF for a couple of decades and would often see young women who overestimated their ability to walk around the city in shoes of various types.  Barefoot.

If you know the things that happen on those streets - the pee and the poop of humans and dogs and birds...just...no. You'd have to be majorly desperately in pain to go barefoot. It happens. I get it. I once was so ill that I sat on a curb in Chinatown. The meat street, not the veggie street. Blargh. 

 

I also spent some time on the east coast and I noticed that when I wore sandals my feet would get filthy from walking around, which didn't happen in SF, although I walked just as much.

 

I had a visceral reaction to Marnie going barefoot. To me, it definitely indicates a high level of throwing all caution to the wind and just going with it. 

[chocolatine]

If you know the things that happen on those [san Francisco] streets - the pee and the poop of humans and dogs and birds...just...no. 

 

And it's impossible not to know, because the smell hits you in the face whenever you step outside.

[Zima]

On 3/28/2016 at 5:15 PM, clanstarling said:

Small doesn't mean unappealing or unattractive. Society places way too much value on large breasts. (speaking as someone who has had large ones since the 6th grade)

Thank you! I am shocked, not that there's body-shaming going on (it happens with Lena Dunham's body all the time too), but that each thin-shaming comment has a dozen or so "likes".  I thought Marnie looked amazing in that dress. A woman with larger breasts could not have pulled it off; her breasts would have been flopping all around.  

[EverybodyIsACritic]

On 3/27/2016 at 10:24 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I didn't think it was that awful. Maybe I just have low expectations? I'm glad Charlie's drug use didn't send Marnie running back to Desi, as I thought it might make her be like, "this is what my life should be", and Marnie was my favorite in season 1. And she's sort of back to being that. I don't know. I will sit alone in my little boat by myself. 

You are not alone! Finally saw it last night, and I kind of loved it. I was broken-hearted to see Charlie fall as far as he did. It was like a Brooklyn Sid and Nancy, even though nobody died. I generally am not a Marnie fan, and didn't particularly care for Charlie in previous seasons, but for a one or two person episode focus, it beat the shit out of Hannah's topless ping-pong/rich doctor lost weekend for me.

I forgot about Desi! I think he has become the male version of Hannah. She is, by far, my least favorite character, so I was happy to see so little of her.