S04.E16: Broken Hearts

[ComicFan777]

I think this also goes well beyond just the relationship between Oliver and Felicity.  Felicity found out in 4.15 that Barry and Thea knew about his secret.  In 4.16, Oliver specifically told Diggle that she broke up with him because he lied to her (no mention of inclusion), but Diggle made it sound like it was all about him having a son.  Diggle and Thea were obviously still on Team Oliver. 

 

Felicity values trust and honesty above everything.  She deeply cares about her friends and Oliver.  She has spent over three years being there for everyone else and when she needs it the most, no one has her back.  Instead, she is cornered into being in a fake wedding, when she is clearly not ok - and it is not even this one thing, it is everything before this, the fake wedding is just what pushed everything over the edge. 

 

This hurt goes well beyond just losing the love of of her life, it is the hurt she feels from everyone that she surrounds herself with.  This has to shake her at the very core.  Can you imagine what it must feel like, when the people you love and would give anything for, cannot even see your side of the situation?  I don't think that there are words that can really describe how deeply heartbroken and alone Felicity must feel like right now.

 

Oliver may have been the one that messed up, but I am sure that Felicity feels like she has lost a lot more than just her relationship with Oliver.

Edited March 24, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Chaser]

Board ate my post. Grrrr

Thea. She was awesome last night. I loved all the gossip talk.

Lawyer Laurel was so bad. Question - Lance basically outed himself as a co-conspirator. Doesnt his testimony need coroborating episode to be admissible? Or does DD threatening Laurel change that? But wouldn't they need to prove DD actually threatened her? That whole thing was stupid.

The vows didn't get me so much because I get second hand embrassment from wedding vows. I did get effected by Olivers hope and pleading. After the vows, Oliver totally thought they were just going to talk and everything was going to be perfect again. And again when he said they could get married because they both wanted it. Those moments got me a lot more.

I still don't like Felicity leaving the Team. I wish they had phrased it as a break or her stepping back and choosing to work at PT. I can't say it wasn't needed for Olivers growth tho and it could be interesting for Felicity if whatever is on that thumb drive she went back for is important.

ETA: that first action scene with Cupis was awful. Thea jumping on the back of the limo and getting scrapped off. I cringed.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Chaser

[Xenith22]

12. And speaking of that wedding, a) why didn't Felicity realize earlier she would need fake vows? They were faking a wedding, and b) what would have happened if Cupid had come in just a couple minutes later? Would the judge/pastor have just said, "I now pronounce you...."

Probably because first of all she hoped the wedding would not get that far before interrupted, and that if it did it would have been the traditional repeat after me wedding vows love, honor comfort, sickness/health, richer/poorer, etc.   Oliver clearly did not tell her that he was telling the minister that they would be providing their own vows...just like I strongly suspect that he did not even tell her he was wearing an flak vest under his tux given the concerned look on her face as she hurriedly crawled over to him until she saw he was not bleeding and was breathing or maybe felt it under his shirt...   So even with this stupid plan he was still seemingly not sharing everything with her...  An absolutely fantastic way to back up his claim of making her a full partner in everything.

[apinknightmare]

This hurt goes well beyond just losing the love of of her life, it is the hurt she feels from everyone that she surrounds herself with.  This has to shake her at the very core.  Can you imagine what it must feel like, when the people you love and would give anything for, cannot even see your side of the situation?  I don't think that there are words that can really describe how deeply heartbroken and alone Felicity must feel like right now.

 

Oliver may have been the one that messed up, but I am sure that Felicity feels like she has lost a lot more than just her relationship with Oliver.

 

Where was it shown that they can't see her side of it? Did I miss that? I might have, but I really don't recall it. I think it's unfortunate that the show takes the time to show Diggle comforting Oliver, but not Felicity, but just because he's reassuring Oliver doesn't mean he doesn't support Felicity. Since most of their relationship takes place offscreensville at this point, for all we know Diggle could be off sympathizing with Felicity over what a closed-off idiot Oliver is. I'm just not seeing proof in-show that she would feel heartbroken and alone and abandoned by her friends. 

[Morrigan2575]

Where was it shown that they can't see her side of it? Did I miss that? I might have, but I really don't recall it. I think it's unfortunate that the show takes the time to show Diggle comforting Oliver, but not Felicity, but just because he's reassuring Oliver doesn't mean he doesn't support Felicity. Since most of their relationship takes place offscreensville at this point, for all we know Diggle could be off sympathizing with Felicity over what a closed-off idiot Oliver is. I'm just not seeing proof in-show that she would feel heartbroken and alone and abandoned by her friends. 

I don't think they showed that people were taking Oliver's side but I do think constantly having Diggle tell Oliver Felicity just needs time minimizes the issue and kind of makes it sound like Diggle was taking Oliver's side.

 

However, I also wonder if Diggle's comments were more directed to the audience...don't panic....they'll be back together in time.

[mommalib]

I'm sick of this felicity crap. Just let Oliver be the Green Arrow and kick ass. Is that asking too much?

[Midnight Lullaby]

Where was it shown that they can't see her side of it? Did I miss that? I might have, but I really don't recall it. I think it's unfortunate that the show takes the time to show Diggle comforting Oliver, but not Felicity, but just because he's reassuring Oliver doesn't mean he doesn't support Felicity. Since most of their relationship takes place offscreensville at this point, for all we know Diggle could be off sympathizing with Felicity over what a closed-off idiot Oliver is. I'm just not seeing proof in-show that she would feel heartbroken and alone and abandoned by her friends.

I think she was referring to Dig saying "she'll come around" a few times that makes it look like Felicity should work on understanding Oliver, not Oliver on not keeping secret.

Also they were all on board with the wedding ruse as the idea of the century even if Felicity for obvious reasons didn't want any part in that. No one seemed to think she might be hurt.

[Password]

Also they were all on board with the wedding ruse as the idea of the century even if Felicity for obvious reasons didn't want any part in that. No one seemed to think she might be hurt.

If anything this is what made Dig and Thea seem most insensitive. No one cared at all how Felicity would feel, like they didnt take their break up seriously and were just waiting for the two of them to work it out.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think they showed that people were taking Oliver's side but I do think constantly having Diggle tell Oliver Felicity just needs time minimizes the issue and kind of makes it sound like Diggle was taking Oliver's side.

 

 

I think she was referring to Dig saying "she'll come around" a few times that makes it look like Felicity should work on understanding Oliver, not Oliver on not keeping secret.

 

 

I understand, but these are conversations that only *we* see. Felicity isn't there for them, and has no idea what's being said. And she made it pretty clear to all of them that she absolutely didn't want to talk about it, so how would she know that anyone was taking Oliver's side, or whatever?

 

 

Also they were all on board with the wedding ruse as the idea of the century even if Felicity for obvious reasons didn't want any part in that. No one seemed to think she might be hurt.

 

True, but I have difficulty counting this as the team being unfeeling toward her specifically, since her main objection to the ruse was that she might get killed, not that she didn't want to fake marry the guy she just broke up with (who still wanted to legit marry her). 

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

If anything this is what made Dig and Thea seem most insensitive. No one cared at all how Felicity would feel, like they didnt take their break up seriously and were just waiting for the two of them to work it out.

I had the same feeling. At least Feliciy leaving the team should make clear to everyone how seriously she takes the break up.

[JenMD]

5. Kinda surprised that neither Diggle nor Thea were aware that Oliver and Felicity had broken up, given that enough time had passed that Felicity was already packing. 

 

11. Don't you usually need at least two witnesses at weddings, and isn't the officiating judge/pastor supposed to notice this? I know they didn't want to give Cupid too many targets, and the show wanted the visual of all of those empty chairs, but still - surely a couple of people would have missed the "sorry, the wedding is off" notices?

 

5-Yeah, unless this episode was picking up the next day or so, I find it hard to believe that they were able to keep it a secret from the team, unless they took some nights off.  She was way too snarky with him, someone would have noticed things were off. 

 

11-Having the officiant not in on it was a huge mistake.  Aside from the lack of witnesses, she must think they're very strange, to decorate the room so heavily but have no guests. 

 

I'm going to assume that Felicity's wedding dress fit so badly because she got it at the last minute and they didn't have time to tailor it to her.  At least it's an excuse.

Headcannon accepted, thank you.  Par for the course with this costume department, but I hate that they can't take a few minutes to get a somewhat proper fit.

 

Final thought, I think there was a time-jump between 415/416 although I have no idea how much.  We know that Felicity has been going to Physical Therapy with Paul and that she's been packing up the Loft to move out.  However, they apparently haven't talked much about their relationship status, nor have they actually shared that information with the Team.  

Yeah, the timing of things doesn't fit all together, but the writers seem to think in moments, not coherence.  To me, the thing that is the weirdest is that the team didn't know they were broken up if it's been longer than just a couple of days since the last ep.  But everything else seems to indicate longer.  I should stop trying to make things make sense.  Also, I didn't like that Felicity's ability to walk was referenced briefly by Oliver, but not at all by anyone on the team.  Seems like something that should get a mention.

[benteen]

In the first episode of season 4, we learn that Felicity has been helping Team Arrow behind Oliver's back when they were supposed to be living normal lives. Why was it okay for her to do that, but Oliver not telling her about his son is unforgivable?

I feel like Felicity is holding Oliver to a higher standard than she holds herself. In this episode, she says she'll still be part of the team, then leaves it at the end. That doesn't seem fair to Team Arrow. The Felicity I know and love doesn't abandon her friends when they need her help to save the city, mankind or puppies.

Although I can agree in principle about Oliver being wrong not to tell Felicity about his son, the whole storyline was so ridiculous that I can't empathize with Felicity. Months later, I still snort at the idea that a woman would actually tell the father of her child, "Yes, you can see your son, but only if you never tell anyone, including his aunt and your future wife about him." That crap doesn't even happen on Maury Povich.

 

Yeah, I think this was just a bad episode for Felicity.  I totally get her anger at Oliver and Oliver should realize they need time apart (relationship wise) before they can even consider having a future together.  But the snark was annoying and unprofessional as hell.  Uncomfortable work environments suck and I can imagine they suck even more when you're risking your life in the field.  Felicity seemed to be doing her best to do just that.

 

Also, as pointed out, she lied to Oliver for months about helping Team Arrow.  Though to be honest, I didn't particularly mind this as I think she provides too important a role to not be part of the team and she's abandoning that responsibility for the second time in two years.  It looks bad.  But again, she hide the truth from him during a time when Oliver actually legitimately committed himself to living a normal life with her.

 

Of course, it would help if these characters were acting with any kind of consistency.  I've felt for years on this show that the writers write the characters to fit the story instead of the other way around.  Diggle is the loyal friend who doesn't give up on people except when the story they've written needs him too.  Diggle doesn't give up on people until a script is written that requires him to give up on people.  Thea is devastated that Oliver is lying to her and it almost destroyed their relationship yet tells Oliver that he's doing the right thing by not telling Felicity about William (ignoring the fact Oliver could have told her and then told her not to say anything but that's another story).  Roy doesn't trust Malcolm but a week later he's president of the Malcolm Merlyn Fan Club and saying that they should trust him.  Then the next week he's back to not trust Malcolm. 

 

I suppose Oliver's non-stop lying is the only consistent bit of characterization that they are capable of.

Edited March 24, 2016 by benteen

[ComicFan777]

Where was it shown that they can't see her side of it? Did I miss that? I might have, but I really don't recall it. I think it's unfortunate that the show takes the time to show Diggle comforting Oliver, but not Felicity, but just because he's reassuring Oliver doesn't mean he doesn't support Felicity. Since most of their relationship takes place offscreensville at this point, for all we know Diggle could be off sympathizing with Felicity over what a closed-off idiot Oliver is. I'm just not seeing proof in-show that she would feel heartbroken and alone and abandoned by her friends. 

 

When Diggle talked to Oliver, he said something like Oliver has a son and Felicity would come around.  How do you come around from someone lying to you?  Diggle should understand exactly where Felicity is coming from.  He didn't acknowledge why Felicity was really hurt. 

 

On the Flash, Felicity was ignoring Barry's calls.  She is obviously hurt by Barry's role in the secret.

 

When the entire team bullied Felicity into the fake wedding, it shows that they had no sympathy for what she was feeling right then whether she needs to spell it out to them or not.

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

I understand, but these are conversations that only *we* see. Felicity isn't there for them, and has no idea what's being said. 

 

 

True, but I have difficulty counting this as the team being unfeeling toward her specifically, since her main objection to the ruse was that she might get killed, not that she didn't want to fake marry the guy she just broke up with (who still wanted to legit marry her).

Even if only we saw those conversations they are indicative of the way Dig felt about it all and I don't think she needs him to spell it out for her and the way the team behaved around her was enough.

I take the conversation about the wedding ruse as an example. No one thought to ask her if she was okay with that or even said "I know the situation isn't ideal, I wish there was another way, I understand it's going to be difficult...", they were all "that's a great idea, let's do this!"

An attitude like that makes it clear to me they aren't thinking about her feelings at all as a viewer and if I was in her shoes as well.

[nksarmi]

I personally loved that Felicity left the team.  The whole idea that she and Oliver could function like they used to was ridiculous and I'd rather pass on week after week of tension in the lair.  Plus Oliver needs real separation to figure out what he needs to change.  Last season, even when Felicity was dating Ray - Oliver was still get emotional support from her; what he needs most from her - he was still getting.  That happened all season three - he got his needs meet by Felicity and she only got half of what she wanted from him.  So it makes sense that at the end of the season, when he was finally willing to give her everything she wanted - she went for it.

 

But now - she doesn't think he CAN give her everything and there is no reason for her to keep giving him what he needs from her while nursing her own broken heart.  We already know that Oliver won't learn until he has to.  Oliver lost Diggle's trust and had to earn it back.  He damn well has to work to earn Felicity's trust back and he won't do that while she's sitting there being his "light."

 

Plus holy cow, the girl deserves some time to heal without being forced into fake weddings!  She'll be there for the team but she can take some time to herself if she needs it.  And as my SO pointed out - if you company just invented a cure for paralysis - that should be your full-time pursuit and it will likely help just as many people as Team Arrow will.

[dtissagirl]

But everything else seems to indicate longer.  I should stop trying to make things make sense.  Also, I didn't like that Felicity's ability to walk was referenced briefly by Oliver, but not at all by anyone on the team.  Seems like something that should get a mention.

 

This was particularly hilarious, since Felicity walking again and breaking up with Oliver HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME. So they told the team she was walking, but not about the break up? El oh el.

[apinknightmare]

Even if only we saw those conversations they are indicative of the way Dig felt about it all and I don't think she needs him to spell it out for her and the way the team behaved around her was enough.

I take the conversation about the wedding ruse as an example. No one thought to ask her if she was okay with that or even said "I know the situation isn't ideal, I wish there was another way, I understand it's going to be difficult...", they were all "that's a great idea, let's do this!"

An attitude like that makes it clear to me they aren't thinking about her feelings at all as a viewer and if I was in her shoes as well.

 

It doesn't matter how Digg feels about it though, because Felicity is not privy to that information since he only has those conversations with Oliver, and she told John and team in no uncertain terms that she didn't want to talk about it. It didn't seem to me that they treated her any differently than they normally would, so why would she feel heartbroken and abandoned over it? 

 

And I'm guessing if Felicity had expressed discomfort with the idea of a fake wedding for emotional purposes, they would've shown her support in that. Her only objection to it was that she didn't want to get killed, where Thea reassured her that she and John would have her back. 

[apinknightmare]

When Diggle talked to Oliver, he said something like Oliver has a son and Felicity would come around.  How do you come around from someone lying to you?  Diggle should understand exactly where Felicity is coming from.  He didn't acknowledge why Felicity was really hurt. 

 

He may actually think that Felicity will come around, though. He's not privy to the real reasons why Felicity broke up with him, because it wasn't about the kid, so any counsel he's giving isn't coming from a place of real knowledge since Oliver didn't share with him that Felicity broke it off for hiding things from her, not about the kid lie. Still, though, why should John's private thoughts on the matter that he only seems to share with Oliver have any effect on Felicity feeling abandoned? Seemed like he treated her the way he always would have, and respected her desire to not talk about it like she asked him to. 

 

On the Flash, Felicity was ignoring Barry's calls.  She is obviously hurt by Barry's role in the secret.

 

I'm not going to attribute that to anything other than a need to bring Felicity up in conversation, since chronologically John's trip to Central City took place before Felicity found out Barry was in on the secret, and we've been given no indication that the episodes were out of order.

 

 

When the entire team bullied Felicity into the fake wedding, it shows that they had no sympathy for what she was feeling right then whether she needs to spell it out to them or not.

 

Respectfully disagree about her being bullied into it. But I have kind of a different take on it in that when I was watching, it never once occurred to me that it would be difficult for her, since she called off the wedding and the relationship, and Oliver was still the one very much wanting to marry her. So the fake-y ness of it seemed like it'd be more difficult for him, since it was something he still wanted to happen, where she didn't. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

It doesn't matter how Digg feels about it though, because Felicity is not privy to that information since he only has those conversations with Oliver, and she told John and team in no uncertain terms that she didn't want to talk about it. It didn't seem to me that they treated her any differently than they normally would, so why would she feel heartbroken and abandoned over it? 

 

And I'm guessing if Felicity had expressed discomfort with the idea of a fake wedding for emotional purposes, they would've shown her support in that. Her only objection to it was that she didn't want to get killed, where Thea reassured her that she and John would have her back.

I don't think she needed to express discomfort because she was showing it in everything she did. Her behavior the whole episode showed her discomfort, refusing to talk showed discomfort. We saw it as viewers so I don't see how the characters that were living the situation shouldn't have seen it as well.

She isn't privy of that information. I said I don't think she needs Diggle to tell her she should get over it to understand the team doesn't feel the break up might be a sensitive subject for her because the way they acted about the ruse, with complete lack of tact, showed her their feelings.

I don't know if she feels heartbroken and abandoned, I wasn't the one who made that comment, but I don't think she found the lack of support by everyone (not counting Laurel since she wasn't there) particularly comforting in what was a difficult moment for her.

[looptab]

The vows didn't get me so much because I get second hand embrassment from wedding vows. I did get effected by Olivers hope and pleading. After the vows, Oliver totally thought they were just going to talk and everything was going to be perfect again. And again when he said they could get married because they both wanted it. Those moments got me a lot more.

 

Same. And also when he said he hadn't canceled the venue yet. Heartbreaking.

 

 her main objection to the ruse was that she might get killed, not that she didn't want to fake marry the guy she just broke up with (who still wanted to legit marry her). 

I don't have a particular opinion on whether Felicity feels the team is on Oliver's side or not, but I do think that her objections being "I don't want to get killed" was pretty much a façade, and she didn't want to fake-marry Oliver because she was heartbroken. She never objected to being in danger before, and her attitude at the wedding confirmed this to me.

Lucky that Cupid shot Oliver, though, haha.

[Orion]

I want to say I liked this episode a lot but I don't think you can "like" an episode with that kind of subject matter so I'll go with I like the character work that happened in this episode. I often/always knock Arrow for it's pacing problems but I'll give them credit for this one, the pacing in this episode was pretty close to perfect; good job, Arrow.

 

I think my favorite scene was when Oliver was so hopeful that they could go out and talk after Cupid was caught and that everything was about to work out. Something so simple was all he wanted and you could see Felicity trying to deflect him without having to lay everything out on the table in front of the paps and news crews standing right there. That was my biggest heartbreak moment. Although Oliver not being able to sleep without her was a close second. I aww'd a few times.

 

A couple little things:

 

I love all the call backs in this episode. The cubicle. the meta on how everything changed, the don't ask me to say I don't love you call back (even the wording was a bit awkward).

 

Cupid technically got it wrong. She was in love with three men. Deadshot, The Arrow, and the cop on the force that she started stalking that got her kicked off the SCPD.

 

I would really appreciate it if Diggle started to talking TO Felicity instead of talking ABOUT Felicity. His, "Oh Oliver, you have a kid that's a big deal but don't worry it is not an equally big deal for the person you were casting as a surprise stepmother and she'll get over it," had me gritting my teeth.  

 

Laurel Lawyer turned me into the Esurance lady.

 

[dtissagirl]

I don't have a particular opinion on whether Felicity feels the team is on Oliver's side or not, but I do think that her objections being "I don't want to get killed" was pretty much a façade, and she didn't want to fake-marry Oliver because she was heartbroken. She never objected to being in danger before, and her attitude at the wedding confirmed this to me.

 

Agreed. I think she was putting up a façade because she really really really wanted the team work to go back to normal, and this is what they do, and she didn't want to let anyone else know that this fake-wedding could potentially break her.

 

And then the fake wedding DID break her, and she realized she needs space from Oliver and from the team, because she's always thought of Oliver and the work as the same thing, and she sucks at compartmentalizing.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Respectfully disagree about her being bullied into it. But I have kind of a different take on it in that when I was watching, it never once occurred to me that it would be difficult for her, since she called off the wedding and the relationship, and Oliver was still the one very much wanting to marry her. So the fake-y ness of it seemed like it'd be more difficult for him, since it was something he still wanted to happen, where she didn't.

I disagree because it's not that breaking up with someone you are still very much in love with is any less painful because you are the one who made the decision. She is still in love with him but he broke her heart and that's why she feels they can't be together again. Standing in front of him in her wedding dress, in the venue they chose for their wedding right after he shattered all her dreams of a life together is cruel. After a break up the last thing you want to do is spend time pretending everything is fine with your ex. It hurts.

I'm sure it was hard for Oliver too but I got the feeling he thought he could use the occasion to tell her all the things he felt he couldn't and get through to her. It was heartbreaking for him too but he was the one who volunteered the both of them for the ruse so I doubt it was more difficult for him than it was for her.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think she needed to express discomfort because she was showing it in everything she did. Her behavior the whole episode showed her discomfort, refusing to talk showed discomfort. We saw it as viewers so I don't see how the characters that were living the situation shouldn't have seen it as well.

 

Ah, see, I guess I'm just not seeing this whole thing the same way because I didn't get discomfort from her at all wrt the team stuff, just anger. John or Thea even commented on it. I know she was doing that to hide her hurt, but Felicity specifically asked them not to talk about it and she seemed to want to keep things normal and not address it so, it makes sense to me that no one would've brought up that the wedding could've been emotionally bad for her since she pretty much asked them all not to address the breakup with her. They were treating it as business as usual, which was what it seemed like she wanted.

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

Ah, see, I guess I'm just not seeing this whole thing the same way because I didn't get discomfort from her at all wrt the team stuff, just anger. John or Thea even commented on it. I know she was doing that to hide her hurt, but Felicity specifically asked them not to talk about it and she seemed to want to keep things normal and not address it so, it makes sense to me that no one would've brought up that the wedding could've been emotionally bad for her since she pretty much asked them all not to address the breakup with her. They were treating it as business as usual, which was what it seemed like she wanted.

 

I think that was her initial plan -- business as usual at the bunker. So yep, this was exactly what she was doing, and exactly how she wanted the team to treat her -- she wanted to go back to normal, and she didn't want the team to worry about her emotional being. And then after she went through the  fake-wedding with real vows, she realized her business-as-usual plan wasn't gonna work for her.

 

I also do think Oliver was totally thinking the fake wedding would give him the opportunity to make Felicity come around. I don't think they made that clear with Thea and Dig, if they wanted to put O/F in that situation to see if they'd work it out, but I admit I got that impression from them.

Edited March 24, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

I think that was her initial plan -- business as usual at the bunker. So yep, this was exactly what she was doing, and exactly how she wanted the team to treat her -- she wanted to go back to normal, and she didn't want the team to worry about her emotional being. And then she after she went through the  fake-wedding with real vows, she realized her business-as-usual plan wasn't gonna work for her.

 

Right! And that speaks to the initial point of what led to this conversation in the first place - I don't think Felicity has any reason to feel heartbroken and abandoned by them, because they repeatedly kept treating her exactly the way she wanted them to. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't occur to a normal friend/teammate that asking someone who just had to dump her fiance bc he's a lying liar who lies, NOT bc she stopped loving him, to fake a wedding with him would be painful. Just bc someone says it's okay doesn't mean that any friend with a modicum of tact or empathy wouldn't think "Hey, I bet this is going to be painful for her. Maybe I should pretend to give a damn about that." 

[dtissagirl]

Right! And that speaks to the initial point of what led to this conversation in the first place - I don't think Felicity has any reason to feel heartbroken and abandoned by them, because they repeatedly kept treating her exactly the way she wanted them to. 

 

Yeah, I see it quite as the other way around -- I think Felicity is removing herself from the Team because she realized she CAN'T do it business-as-usual style. Being near Oliver is hurting her, and her saying it's unfair to him makes me think she thinks it's hurting him too. And she doesn't want the others to have to deal with her when she's in that kind of emotional headspace.

[AyChihuahua]

Have we seen ANYONE supporting Felicity in all this? Has it even been remotely alluded to? Thea: "Lying to Felicity is awesome, Oliver!" Digg: "I totally get that you had to lie, Oliver [which will NEVER BE CORRECT], and "Felicity will get over it, Oliver." BM: "It was my fault, Felicity...Oliver's totes awesome!" Thea and Digg: "Persuading your very recent ex-fiancee to participate in a fake wedding with you is genius, Oliver!" 

 

I can't think of one single supportive thing that ANYONE has said to Felicity. Either on-screen or alluded to. Nada, zip, zilch. So yeah, Felicity feeling like everyone is Team Oliver seems like a logical conclusion to me, bc that's how tv works. Other than stuff like going to the bathroom, if it's not shown/mentioned/alluded to, it didn't happen.

 

I really hope Mama Smoak is fully Team Felicity next episode. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[looptab]

I also do think Oliver was totally thinking the fake wedding would give him the opportunity to make Felicity come around. I don't think they made that clear with Thea and Dig, if they wanted to put O/F in that situation to see if they'd work it out, but I admit I got that impression from them.

I got a little bit of a Parent Trap vibe.

[KirkB]

I've written things like that wedding announcement before. Since, barring something like DVRing it to pause and rewatch, it is only intended to be onscreen for a moment so they just put relevant names and words in there so peoples eye will be drawn to different things. Some will notice Oliver's parents names, for example. It is probably also intended to be humorous for anyone who actually does manage to read it completely, like I'm not convinced Oliver ever finished a course at college, let along something like astrophysics.

 

I'm not a lawyer. The closest I come is watching them on TV. So I don't claim to know the intricacies of a courtroom. That said, even I am fairly sure you need to have a plan BEFORE you go into the courtroom. A list of witnesses approved or at least acknowledged by the defense, and some evidence. You can't just pick a random guy off the street and call him Damien Dark the monster without being able to prove...something. At least I get why Laurel, who seems to be blissfully unaware of any of these things herself, is the one in charge of the case. Nobody else in Star City is dumb enough to a) prosecute someone like Dark and b) be in a position of actual authority, because history shows both of those kinds of things will definitely get you killed.

 

I shouldn't find a psychopath hilarious and fun to watch, but I do. Cupid is crazy and I like it. She was so prepared for the wedding crashers she had an escape set up specifically designed to scrape someone off her roof. She knew the Green Arrow would tie her up rather than just put an arrow through her eye so she had a blade in easy reach. She even seems to be more aware of what is going on between Oliver and Felicity than their own friends since she apparently had taken them off her hit list before they told the team there were broken up. Okay, the last one is just crappy writing than anything which can actually be attributed to Cupid but I'm counting it anyway because I can.

 

Felicity leaving the team doesn't bother me at all. For one thing, everyone is clearly on Oliver's side. Diggle is absolving Oliver of being responsible for anything (when he is in fact responsible for everything, including Cupid) by assuring him Felicity will get over it, he just has to wait. Thea seemed to be more concerned about how Oliver was doing than Felicity, though he is her brother so I guess it's to be expected. Still, Felicity needs to get away from these people for a while. I say, until they run into a technical problem they can't handle, which will probably be in one episode, maybe two, tops.

 

BTW, the plan to catch Cupid. Fake wedding for someone killing publicly known people in love? Good. Not good? Having it just be Oliver and Felicity and the official in the room. Why were Diggle and Thea so far away? They needed to take Cupid down. They DIDN'T need to be in costume to do it, since Diggle and Thea both had a legitimate reason to be in the room for a WEDDING and Diggle, who was publicly known as Oliver Queen's bodyguard, could have been both armed and ready to tackle Cupid when she threatened his employer.

 

The flaskbacks still suck. I mean, seriously. They make no sense, they interrupt the flow of the actual stuff I want to see, and unlike those in seasons 1 and 2 they seem to have no actual bearing on...well, anything really.

Edited March 24, 2016 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

I also do think Oliver was totally thinking the fake wedding would give him the opportunity to make Felicity come around. I don't think they made that clear with Thea and Dig, if they wanted to put O/F in that situation to see if they'd work it out, but I admit I got that impression from them.

Oh, definitely. When they told him that he needed to tell her he wanted to be with her, he saw the fake wedding as his chance to make a grand statement (although I do think he would've had he fake wedding idea even if he hadn't been given that advice by Digg and Thea). I don't think that it was orchestrated for that purpose or anything.

[tv echo]

Guys... you totally don't understand the Arrow EPs' logic! (sarcasm)

 

Why Laurel had to be told to use Felicity, Thea and Diggle as witnesses - Because Laurel wasn't present at that holiday party (and therefore that event did not happen in Laurel World).

 

Why Oliver was wearing kevlar but Felicity was not - Because there's no way to design a wedding dress that will look good with kevlar underlining.

 

Why Oliver still did not apologize to Felicity - Because "Oliver had no choice but to agree to Samantha's terms in order to see protect his son" (now the writers' mantra!).

 

Why Diggle supported Oliver - Because their Doliver bromance is the real OTP of the show.

 

Seriously, this episode was painful to watch.  The reason that Felicity was making those little snippy remarks is that she STILL hasn't had the opportunity to talk the whole thing out with anyone - not with Oliver, not with Diggle, not with her mother, no one.  Yet Oliver has been able to talk to and get support from everyone on the team.  So Felicity's emotions, including understandable anger and hurt, have been repressed - due to having to help the team deal with various crises - and come out in little outbursts.

Edited March 24, 2016 by tv echo

[cambridgeguy]

 

Oliver clearly did not tell her that he was telling the minister that they would be providing their own vows...just like I strongly suspect that he did not even tell her he was wearing an flak vest under his tux given the concerned look on her face as she hurriedly crawled over to him until she saw he was not bleeding and was breathing or maybe felt it under his shirt...   So even with this stupid plan he was still seemingly not sharing everything with her...  An absolutely fantastic way to back up his claim of making her a full partner in everything.

A flak vest is not the same as an invincible shield.  I think the normal reaction to seeing someone you care about take a potentially lethal shot is to run over and look concerned, NOT stand there with a bored look, even if you know they're probably OK.  Besides, it would have instantly blown the cover if she hadn't looked worried.  Although maybe she was worried that she wasn't the one wearing any armor. 

 

So is Laurel the acting DA now?  Whomever is in charge of the office should be helping her lay out the charges and making sure their case is decent before they step into a courtroom.  If she walked in and was totally baffled by the need for little things like evidence then her boss deserves some crap too.

[The Real Chon]

Maybe it's Y chromosome hairsplitting, but I find the last-straw reasoning that Felicity laid down to be disingenuous. We're talking about a life, here, and Felicity of all people should realize that a connection to someone like Oliver/Green Arrow was dangerous. I also think that keeping a secret of that magnitude isn't lying, no matter how much Felicity purses her lips in disagreement.

Add to that the either/or demand of having a relationship with her, and Oliver will screw up just waking up in the morning. She should have known this guy was damaged goods, and demanding instant improvement under penalty of a ratings ploy probably won't help. It's a relationship -- messy and fraught with peril -- and requires work, not ultimatums. I mean, you don't bolo punch an alcoholic for slipping, so you?

[lexicon]

A kid I babysat years ago did those kinds of visuals on Veronica Mars. When he realized I was a huge fan of VM, he used my name a couple times. On the main VM wiki, I'm a suspect in the bus bombing, bc he did a writeup using my name for a background article about a military bomb disposal person. He also used my name for a chauffeur sign. It was AWESOME.

 

THIS IS THE COOLEST THING EVER!

 

Edited because apparently when I get excited I can't spell

Edited March 24, 2016 by lexicon

[Chaser]

Maybe it's Y chromosome hairsplitting, but I find the last-straw reasoning that Felicity laid down to be disingenuous. We're talking about a life, here, and Felicity of all people should realize that a connection to someone like Oliver/Green Arrow was dangerous. I also think that keeping a secret of that magnitude isn't lying, no matter how much Felicity purses her lips in disagreement.

Add to that the either/or demand of having a relationship with her, and Oliver will screw up just waking up in the morning. She should have known this guy was damaged goods, and demanding instant improvement under penalty of a ratings ploy probably won't help. It's a relationship -- messy and fraught with peril -- and requires work, not ultimatums. I mean, you don't bolo punch an alcoholic for slipping, so you?

I'm confused. Where did she demand instant improvement? Or give him an ultimatum?

[Carrie Ann]

The reason that Felicity was making those little snippy remarks is that she STILL hasn't had the opportunity to talk the whole thing out with anyone - not with Oliver, not with Diggle, not with her mother, no one.  Yet Oliver has been able to talk to and get support from everyone on the team.  So Felicity's emotions, including understandable anger and hurt, have been repressed - due to having to help the team deal with various crises - and come out in little outbursts.

 

This gets at something about Felicity this episode/season/series that I've been thinking about, which is: her defense mechanisms vs. Oliver's. This episode was basically about her defense mechanisms, and how they were making things worse and not actually working for her anymore by the end, to the point that she had to abandon them and simply remove herself from the situation instead.

 

She starts out being very adult, but still avoidant, in her conversation with Oliver. By the end of the conversation, though, she gets frazzled and spits out the bottom line about why it has become awkward: because they were engaged and now they're not together. The thing she's trying to bury and not talk about is sneaking out anyway.

 

From that point on, she keeps trying the shut-down and shut-out plan, until Oliver's vows, when the jig is up. She tells the team about the breakup, calmly and clearly, then says firmly that she does not want to talk about it. In addition to that being in-character for how she responds to being stressed--and she has NOT reacted well, historically, when pushed to act differently in those situations--it also gives the show a reason not to have a scene where she talks to a third party. They weren't ready to reveal her real feelings until the end, when she did so to Oliver. (This does not absolve the show of what would have been a fairly easy fix--just having Dig or Thea giving nonverbal support or even a quick line opposing the fake wedding until it becomes clear that is the only option--but they rarely do that kind of nuanced stuff these days, so.)

 

Back to the point: I'm not positive that the show intends to make it seem like Felicity feels that abandoned/isolated by the team, but I can see that interpretation. And if she does feel that way, then IMO it is partially of her own making; a result of her own defense mechanisms. Just like Oliver's defense mechanisms--which this whole breakup hinges on--hers aren't healthy either. They keep people at a distance--which we saw and she acknowledged in 406. In times of stress, Felicity doesn't reach out for support, and in fact shuts it down preemptively or reacts in anger or frustration if pushed.

 

My point is not to say any of this is her fault, or to absolve Dig, Thea, or even the show for not being more explicit in support of her/her situation. My point is to say that--related to my earlier post that I felt the way things ended indicated a growth arc for Felicity--I think her defense mechanisms hurt her more than they help her, and as we are also addressing Oliver's in that way, I would be very happy with this storyline if it addressed Felicity's too.

[EmeraldArcher]

Maybe it's Y chromosome hairsplitting, but I find the last-straw reasoning that Felicity laid down to be disingenuous. We're talking about a life, here, and Felicity of all people should realize that a connection to someone like Oliver/Green Arrow was dangerous. I also think that keeping a secret of that magnitude isn't lying, no matter how much Felicity purses her lips in disagreement.Add to that the either/or demand of having a relationship with her, and Oliver will screw up just waking up in the morning. She should have known this guy was damaged goods, and demanding instant improvement under penalty of a ratings ploy probably won't help. It's a relationship -- messy and fraught with peril -- and requires work, not ultimatums. I mean, you don't bolo punch an alcoholic for slipping, so you?

I don't understand what you're saying . . . You seem to grounding your entire argument in your own gender?! So, as someone who has a Y chromosome, you can offer insights that those of us with two X chromosomes might miss, given the likelihood we're persuaded by lip pursing?

If you'd like to talk about a life here, then maybe it's important to think about the negative consequences to William's life that happened because Oliver lied to Felicity about his existence? As in, 4x15 made it pretty clear that Oliver wasn't able to keep him safe by hiding his existence from Felicity, especially after others knew--oh, like Malcolm Merlyn, who kidnapped him. Felicity is really good at keeping people safe, and I'm sure she would have done the same for William.

I'm interested in your definition of "instant improvement." Does it only apply after his most recent screw up or just after his first? Because she has forgiven him for many, many deal breakers for anybody who really wants to have a healthy relationship.

Edited March 24, 2016 by EmeraldArcher

[dtissagirl]

I dearly hoped for that exact storyline for Felicity when her father showed up, but then it ended in 3 and a half scenes, and LOL.

[quarks]

 

So is Laurel the acting DA now?  Whomever is in charge of the office should be helping her lay out the charges and making sure their case is decent before they step into a courtroom.  If she walked in and was totally baffled by the need for little things like evidence then her boss deserves some crap too.

 

The acting DA apparently went on vacation back in episode 305 (it was mentioned in the script) and hasn't been back since, a decision which, given the mortality rates for DAs on this show, I can only applaud. You go, nameless acting DA! YOU GO! Enjoy Bora Bora! Or, I guess on this show, Bali!

 

We did see some city officials sorta standing around in previous episodes when they weren't getting shot, so Laurel presumably still has a boss somewhere or other. I can only hope that boss is spending time hulking over books explaining how to survive kidnappings, bombs, arrows and people who tie you up in abandoned subway lines since those seem to be more important than basic legal skills on Arrow.  Still, I have no doubt that Laurel's presumed boss will soon get a painful death, earned in party by failing to train ADAs in basic things like "evidence can be useful in trials."

[tv echo]

IIRC, Laurel did at one point in this episode refer to talking to her boss about something and referenced her boss as a "him."

Edited March 24, 2016 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I'm confused. Where did she demand instant improvement? Or give him an ultimatum?

Wimmuns ain't allowed to break up with manly men, don'tchaknow. The mens can dump the wimmuns, of course, esp if the wimmuns don't make the sammiches proper-like, but them wimmuns need to know they place, which ain't breakin' up with no mens when the mens don't wanna be broke up with. Wimmuns need to make sammiches, look purty, be seen lookin' purty, bear them babies, and always do what they mens tells 'em to! 

[Guest]

OMG either the angle is off or Emily is really short without heels in comparison to Stephen he looks like a damn giant lol. I knew she was tiny & short but wow!

 

 

Flashing gif alert. I love how Felicity took off her heels and veil, she was just so done.

[way2interested]

My point is not to say any of this is her fault, or to absolve Dig, Thea, or even the show for not being more explicit in support of her/her situation. My point is to say that--related to my earlier post that I felt the way things ended indicated a growth arc for Felicity--I think her defense mechanisms hurt her more than they help her, and as we are also addressing Oliver's in that way, I would be very happy with this storyline if it addressed Felicity's too.

It's almost as if *gasp* Felicity is a character with her own faults, feelings, and shortcomings and not just an embodiment of perfection who should get called out every time she does something less than flattering. 

 

Loved your post. I think Felicity may be right in the argument, but that doesn't necessarily mean her reaction is right for her own psyche (justified, yes, but good for the long run for herself? eh...)

[kirkola]

So with you on this line of thinking.  However, I don't think the issue is hiding things or lying.,  By mid-415 it was clear Felicity got that he was in a no win position with the lie.  The issue is the "being a true partner". 

 

Here is where I split ways with many on this forum....deep breath...the man she met and fell in love with was broken.  He has come a long way.  She is within her rights to stand firm and insist he go all the way to ideal, or she can take a leap of faith that he will keep trying.  Oliver will have to keep growing, but Felicity will have to decide whether she wants to be on the journey with him or wait until he is all fixed.  The danger in waiting is that he could die before he gets the chance.  Felicity is going to have to decide if she believes in him and herself enough to bet on the direction he is heading.  Meanwhile he has to keep heading in said direction.  Would she rather live with him or without him?

 

I think that was my issue with the entire thing.  It's easy to jump on the Oliver-did-bad-and-needs-to-fix-it bandwagon because let's face it, Oliver did bad and needs to fix it.  But Felicity also needs to grow a little.  The man she fell for was completely broken.  He's healing and she's always been understanding and given him the room to heal.  Yet this one time, it wasn't enough and she is walking away.  She can't love Oliver and expect him to be the ideal.  Oliver may never be ideal...the Island damaged him and it may not ever be 100% fixable.  So, Felicity needs to step back and decide what it is exactly she wants for herself and from Oliver.  Because she is never going to have the fairy tale romance of Curtis and Paul.  So while Oliver needs to fix what Oliver did wrong, Felicity needs to work on herself and her expectations too.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm having such a hard time with this "She knew he wasn't perfect" thing. He's not just not-perfect. He lied to her about something HUGE, that inarguably affects her life, and their lives together. (And he DID NOT HAVE TO LIE TO HER BC SHE WOULD HAVE KEPT THAT SECRET LIKE SHE'S KEPT HIS OTHER GAZILLION SECRETS FOR FOUR YEARS; OMG, I HATE THAT STORYLINE.) He didn't leave the toilet seat up. He didn't fail to include her on what kind of pizza to order. He failed to tell her HE HAS A KID. An ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD. Even though MALCOLM MERLYN KNEW. And, I know a lot of people have scrubbed S3 from their minds, but in fact, he lied to her about huge things, such as, oh, his plan to COMMIT SUICIDE, last year, too. He'd supposedly learned that was BAD. But instead, he did it all over again.

And thus, she is done. She didn't give him an ultimatum. She didn't tell him he has to be perfect. She dumped him. Pretty nicely, but also pretty definitively, bc this particular flaw of his is not something she's willing to accept anymore. She has EVERY RIGHT to make that choice for herself. She's not bound to stay with him no matter what...she has the right to decide what flaws in a relationship she is okay with, and which flaws she's not okay with. She's okay with him putting himself in danger. She was INCREDIBLY forgiving when he manpained instead of being with her in the hospital. She puts up with all his nutty exes hanging around, and his obsession with his sister. However, lying to her about HAVING AN ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD is, clearly, NOT okay with her, which is entirely her decision to make.

Edited March 24, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

It's almost as if *gasp* Felicity is a character with her own faults, feelings, and shortcomings and not just an embodiment of perfection who should get called out every time she does something less than flattering.

 

Yes, and also the other side of the coin--that she is a character with faults, etc., not an embodiment of perfection, and therefore, it's okay for viewers to acknowledge those shortcomings for what they are, and hope the show might address them.

[EmeraldArcher]

I just recalled one of my favorite Olicity lines ever and had my heart broken anew: "If you're not leaving, I'm not leaving."

She was finally willing to leave him behind for her own wellbeing, which makes this all feel way more permanent than I know it will be.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Celebrates Valentine's Day
Okay, so it's five weeks late. The presence of Cupid still makes this a Valentine's episode. Deal with it.