S05.E13: Labor Of Love

[Camera One]

I don't think those two complaints are mutually exclusive.  You can develop main characters while using the shiny toys in a way that is revealing for the main character while using the backstory of the shiny toys to their full potential.  An example is how they handled Elsa and Emma.

 

In this episode, I don't think Snow was actually developed to any extent, and Hercules/Meg weren't used to their full potential.  Thus, the complaint, which I think is perfectly legitimate.

[KingOfHearts]

A&E just wanted to add Hercules and Megara to their fairy tale résumé. Their thinking was along the lines of, "Hey, we're doing the Underworld with Hades... we might as well check Hercules off the list! What if Hercules knew Snow when they were young? OMG! Mash-up!" Especially with Megara, it was handled much like Rapunzel. It's one thing to say you included another classic character, but it's another to actually give them proper treatment as a character that goes beyond a famous nameplate. 

 

Megara could be any EF extra. I thought they would at least work her into the Snow/Hercules flashbacks somehow. Her frail demeanor was reminiscent of Aurora in 2A. Kind of think of it, did it really need to be Hercules? Couldn't it have been a mortal warrior? When did Hercules' supernatural strength ever come into play? Couldn't he have just been a man who adept at killing magical beasts? It's all about recognizable monikers, I suppose.

Edited March 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I agree that Megara was weak. Hercules was actually perfectly serviceable as a one-shot character who had his own journey but serviced one of the core cast...Meg, on the other hand, did nothing. Also, Aurora in 2A was tougher than Meg was in these kinds of perilous situations, so not even that comparison works.

Now, here is a really valid complaint...the writers once again are clueless to what they have put onscreen. David says to Snow "we'll find a way to protect Emma, we always do!"

Oh really, David? Like when you protected her from along being sucked into a hat as part of a way to remove her powers? Wait, no, you didn't...heck, Snow was more interested in cheering on Regina helping Robin cheat on his frozen wife. Or when you protected her from potentially turning dark to enable Rumple's plan with the Author. Wait, no, you refused to burn the page with the Author in it, which would have helped protect Emma, because then Regina would lose her happy ending. Or when she was running around as the Dark Swan in Storybrooke and you...did....absolutely....NOTHING. Yeah, you two FAIL at protecting Emma.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

I've been kind of confused about why anyone thinks Emma should have given the pep talk to Snow. Emma was laser focused exactly where she should have been right on finding her boyfriend whom she is well aware is being tortured. If Emma had to take time away from that search because Snow was having a pity party due to her identity crisis, I would have been throwing things. Either help or get out of the way, Snow. Don't waste other people's time because of your personal issues.

[Camera One]

Especially with Megara, it was handled much like Rapunzel. It's one thing to say you included another classic character, but it's another to actually give them proper treatment as a character that goes beyond a famous nameplate. 

 

Megara could be any EF extra. I thought they would at least work her into the Snow/Hercules flashbacks somehow. Her frail demeanor was reminiscent of Aurora in 2A. Kind of think of it, did it really need to be Hercules? Couldn't it have been a mortal warrior? When did Hercules' supernatural strength ever come into play? Couldn't he have just been a man who adept at killing magical beasts? It's all about recognizable monikers, I suppose.

 

This.  Other than causing that pathetic "earthquake", Hercules did nothing Herculean.  He could have been Robin Hood teaching Snow how to shoot arrows.  And Meg could have been revealed as Marian.  Just like Random Peasant #55 was revealed to be Marian at the end of the 4B finale.

 

Like the Rapunzel episode, Main Character inspired Guest Character, while Helping Guest Character Inspired Main Character.  Very cookie-cutter, and thus not very satisfying.

[Camera One]

I've been kind of confused about why anyone thinks Emma should have given the pep talk to Snow. Emma was laser focused exactly where she should have been right on finding her boyfriend whom she is well aware is being tortured. If Emma had to take time away from that search because Snow was having a pity party due to her identity crisis, I would have been throwing things. Either help or get out of the way, Snow. Don't waste other people's time because of your personal issues.

 

No, it would not have worked to simply substitute one character for another.  If this episode had been better written and framed, no pep talk would even be necessary.

 

The Pity Party Main Character Needs a Pep Talk After Throwing Their Hands Up In Defeat routine has been way overplayed, and we got a double-dose in the flashback and in the present-day, to the point where it was borderline irritating.  Which was counter to the whole "How Snow Got Her Groove Back" point of the episode.  

 

Emma interacting with Snow would have needed to be deeper and more meaningful than a simple pep talk.  In the Writers' language, the Pep talk route was the "easy way".

[Rumsy4]

I wouldn't mind Regina giving pep talks to people if only she also apologized to them for doing them wrong.

 

I agree that Megara was weak. .....Meg, on the other hand, did nothing.

 

I didn't see her as weak at all. When given a push, she was brave enough to do stuff like escape from the tunnels, and stab Fluffy with the knife. Once you divorce her from the Disney character, her actions are perfectly understandable for someone who's spent decades in the dungeons. It's even admirable that she was able to find her courage so quickly in a pinch after being beaten down for so long. Not every woman/man has to be punching things to be labelled "strong".

[YaddaYadda]

I agree about Meg. I've never watched Hercules (started, got bored, stopped). She has been down there for who knows how long. And she was killed by Cerberus, so it's only normal that she would be so terrified of it.

 

Hercules turned around and fled when he came face to face with it.

 

He found his courage, and so did she in the end.

[KingOfHearts]

Megara only appears "weak" because of how little the development was she got. Most of her scenes were just running away or looking terrified. If we learned more about her she probably wouldn't have looked like such a damsel. The jarring difference with her animated counterpart was probably a good chunk of it too.

Edited March 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Daisy]

I hope this bodes well for the rest of the season. So far, despite a weaker premiere opener, I feel like this season is reminiscent of 3a (as in more character-focused than plot-driven).

But then again, we're only on episode 2. Hopefully it can keep up the relatively good work past episode 4 and into the middle of the arc at least. Maybe this will be the half season to break the arc-killing-middle-of-the-pack-episodes-5-and-6 dark curse.

 

 

I think they wasted the Megara character. I knew who that was but I thought she'd be all sadistic (trying to get her soul back from Hades, then the good guys help her and you have a better character or something than like.. a lot of ppl on the show LOL). 

[KAOS Agent]

Having never seen Hercules or read any of the myths about her, I had no connection to Meg. She could have been any random character for all I knew. I didn't have a problem with her at all. She seemed like a frightened woman who took the chance handed to her and gained her freedom. Maybe they would have done better to have made her a random character. If we call her Betsy, would that make people feel better about how she acted? 

Edited March 15, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

A&E wanted the reveal to be a big twist.  The character wouldn't even have existed if she were a random Betsy.

[LaChavalina]

In fact, Meg as "Meg" was out of place in the episode, especially as she and Herc had no prior history until 5 minutes before death. And yet, Herc takes her with him to Olympus.

Not just that--they didn't reveal who she was until five minutes before the end of the episode! Very poorly executed, and I wasn't impressed with the actress playing her either. Spent half the episode barely able to squeeze out a coherent sentence, but at the end in the diner she just blandly discusses how Cerberus killed her with no emotion at all. Then she and Hercules are suddenly soulmates. OK...

 

I'm surprised that people generally liked this week. I've found both underworld episodes very disappointing. If the three-month holiday hiatus is going to be a new trend, I expect to see a better quality of show in the spring. (I'm also looking at you, Empire and Mindy Project...)

[KingOfHearts]

Meg was the most three-dimensional character in the Hercules movie, imo. To see her so flatly drawn here is disappointing. I, too was hoping she was working for Hades and fooling Hook.

[elle]

Having never seen Hercules or read any of the myths about her, I had no connection to Meg. She could have been any random character for all I knew. I didn't have a problem with her at all. She seemed like a frightened woman who took the chance handed to her and gained her freedom. Maybe they would have done better to have made her a random character. If we call her Betsy, would that make people feel better about how she acted? 

Yep, mmv.  But as it was pointed out...

 

A&E wanted the reveal to be a big twist.  The character wouldn't even have existed if she were a random Betsy.

or see "Maid Marian reveal", also mentioned above.

[Camera One]

Alternate ending of this episode...

"I don't want to be called Mary Margaret anymore!!!!"

"... So.......... what do you all think of the name Gertrude?"

Edited March 15, 2016 by Camera One

[Jul 68]

This is turning into a semi-annual occurrence. I don't think they even bothered throwing in a line saying he was staying with Meg at the loft. When Charming was absent without an explanation, I though James was going to show up and pose as David to Snow and the others.

I'm thinking Ginny and Josh are rotating down days at this point so that one of them can be home with Baby Dallas.

As for the big "Call me Snow" moment (that we all love), I'm guessing it will serve 2 purposes.

1. Appeasing fandom (for a change it's not a Rumpbelle appeasement)

2. It'll be be how Snow can tell that it's really Jamed kissing her and not David.

It'll be one of their clever 'twists'.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Jul 68

[Shanna Marie]

Smh at all the fan complaints of "they wasted Herc and Meg".  Half-season after half-season now, what has been the biggest complaint?  That the writers focus too much on their shiny new toys/fairy tale characters/Disney characters (Zelena, the Frozen crew, the Queens of Darkness, Merida, etc.) rather than on the core cast.  Now an episode actually develops one of core cast who has been in THE most need of it, and what's the big outrage?  "Herc and Meg were wasted, they should have been in multiple episodes in which they would inevitably eat up screentime we could've used for the core cast!"

I doubt anyone wants more Herc and Meg at the expense of the core cast (like to the extent the Frozen gang was used, or Merida), but rather Herc and Meg developed more fully rather than the kitchen sink cast of thousands of guest stars trotted through superficially. It is kind of weird that they're the protagonists of the movie they're drawing from for this arc, and they're one-and-done guest stars whose stories are barely touched upon. Meanwhile, we have characters like the Blind Witch, who seems to be showing up in every episode, it looks like Cruella will be having an ongoing plot line, Pan is bound to be back after what he said to Rumple, we're sure to see James again, and since Zelena is still a regular, they're probably going to find a way to shoehorn her into the arc eventually even though she's currently in Oz (and that means she'll probably drag some other guest characters in with her). If we're going to have recurring characters in this arc (not necessarily in every episode, but not wrapped up in one episode), why not the main characters from this story? It might also be nice to have some non-villains populating the Underworld to give a more balanced view and make it look less like it's supposed to be hell.

[Dianthus]

I just can't with all of a sudden Regina is everyone's bestie and main cheerleader. OTOH, this is BizarroWorld Storybrooke, so I guess can chalk it up to that? Have I mentioned lately how much I hate her?

Maybe the chisel is magic, like the effing pen. Tho' Colin did say the writers sometimes seem to forget about the one-handed thing (unless they wanna use it as a put-down).

[dr pepper]

Ug. I can't with the disneyfied Hercules and Hades. First, if you use the name "Hercules", then the ruler of the underworld is "Pluto". "Hades" goes with "Herakles". And Hercules did not die tangling with Cerberus. He threw himself into a fire to escape the agony of a poisoned shirt. Also Hades is not a tormentor. He scarcely interacts with his spectral subjects at all. He may oversea the punishments of a few of the notorious ones, such as Tantalus or Sisyphus. But those punishments are decreed by the Zeus, the Furies, the whole council of Olympus, the three Judges of the Dead, etc. And where's Prosephone?

[HoodlumSheep]

Did I miss an explanation for all the random objects Hades seems to have in that circle room? He has the grandfather clock, then a random cello? Or at least I think it's a cello, the globe, etc.

Are they supposed to mean anything?

Edited March 15, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

Did I miss an explanation for all the random objects Hades seems to have in that circle room? He has the grandfather clock, then a random cello? Or at least I think it's a cello

 

I don't know the symbolism, but that's actually a double bass, not a cello.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't know the symbolism, but that's actually a double bass, not a cello.

ah, okay. I don't know my musical instruments very well.

All that stuff seems random.

Edited March 15, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[legaleagle53]

ah, okay. I don't know my musical instruments very well.

All that stuff seems random.

 

And no, there's been no explanation for it yet.  You haven't missed anything.

 

Ug. I can't with the disneyfied Hercules and Hades. First, if you use the name "Hercules", then the ruler of the underworld is "Pluto". "Hades" goes with "Herakles". And Hercules did not die tangling with Cerberus. He threw himself into a fire to escape the agony of a poisoned shirt. Also Hades is not a tormentor. He scarcely interacts with his spectral subjects at all. He may oversea the punishments of a few of the notorious ones, such as Tantalus or Sisyphus. But those punishments are decreed by the Zeus, the Furies, the whole council of Olympus, the three Judges of the Dead, etc. And where's Prosephone?

 

True, but he IS very territorial about his subjects.  Aesculapius (Apollo's son, who eventually became the god of medicine and healing, and whose temples evolved into the first hospitals) was so good at his job that he was able to restore the dead to life (one of his patients was the hunter Orion).  Hades was incensed at the fact that someone was capable of stealing his subjects -- after all, if all the dead could be restored to life, Hades, as Lord of the Underworld, would soon be out of a job! -- so he persuaded his brother Zeus to slay Aesculapius with a thunderbolt to put an end to the threat.  The territorial aspect of the show's Hades is very much in character with the mythological one.

 

And maybe Persephone isn't his Queen yet -- he didn't kidnap her and trick her into eating that pomegranate until after she was grown. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Mitch]

Liked this episode ... a lot...suprising for a Snow centric...actually this episode did the "Centric," right as most everyone else had things to do, besides David who is dull a platerboard even in Hades.  Loved seeing Regina as Queen before she went all out scenery chewing Evil, and loved that she was more Mayor Mills manipulatng things, much more fun! Would have like to see our sexually aggressive Regina lay her eyes on "muscles," in the EF and she what she would do. Liked that the guest characters contributed and went on to their reward, and loved seeing Cruella again...I would drink some gin with her anyday. 

 

So, Henry, is dumb as a box of rocks again...and please no more of the writer b.s. with that stupid pen. Give that up! The Snow as kid actress is getting to that weird age, where she is older but acting like a "child actress," still with the breathy lines and looking like she is about to cry one minute, then is all ENERGY the next. She reminds me of the character they do on the SNL news who is Disney channel star.

 

Also, why does StoryHades have duct work (which just happens to fit a young man) and why is it behind a couch. This storyline reminds me of the infamous end of the Salem Stalker storyline on Days of Our Lives. About mid storyline you could tell that they changed course and a dark storyline became campy but what really tipped you off that there was a change, was that the victims of the Stalker, (half the cast) were not really dead, but sent to an island called Melaswen which was an exct duplicate of Salem, the town they lived in....(get it New Salem) down to the pictures on the wall and chairs in the exact spot.   If Hades has a goofy force field surrounding it then the writers of Days should sue.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Mitch

[Curio]

Would have like to see our sexually aggressive Regina lay her eyes on "muscles," in the EF and she what she would do.

 

I have a feeling it would have been a bit awkward watching a "sexually aggressive" adult woman hitting on a teenage boy.

[Mitch]

 

I have a feeling it would have been a bit awkward watching a "sexually aggressive" adult woman hitting on a teenage boy.

 

And would you put it past Regina?

 

The kid looked in his 20s at least and since this is weirdo medievalville who knows what the age of consent is. 

[Curio]

And would you put it past Regina?

 

Unfortunately, no.

[Camera One]

They should have kept the teenage scenes completely platonic. Mary Margaret and Hercules already felt a little weird. Plus it seemed like Young Snow got him to teach her archery because she was attracted to him or something.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Once Upon A Time Goes From Zero To Hero
With Once Upon A Time borrowing this season's big bad from Hercules, you might have expected the demigod himself to get more than one episode. You'd be wrong. At least he's cute!

[Shanna Marie]

I think one reason I was disappointed in the relatively minor use of Herc and Meg was that their story in the movie parallels what's going on so well that it seems like they could have done more with it. Movie Meg was forced to work for Hades after she essentially sold herself to save the man she loved from the Underworld (only to have him subsequently dump her, so it was for nothing). If Show Meg had been similar, she would have been proof to Emma that it was possible, but that there were costs and drawbacks. Meg might have been cynical about it, since it didn't work so well for her. Then the fact that Meg was a good guy but also working for Hades could have come into play, making things more complicated for the heroes with a mole in their midst. Herc sacrificing his power for her sake and her ending up in the River of Souls could have had a parallel or foreshadowing to what might happen with Emma and Hook.

 

But maybe they were planning to give Emma and Hook the Herc and Meg story. I just thought it might have been interesting to see another couple dealing with similar things.

[Camera One]

Yes, there is a lot they could have done which would have fit with the Underworld plot.

I also expected something different from the flashback. I thought maybe they would do something like... Snow befriends Hercules, but sees Meg sneaking off to talk to a man with blue hair. Snow tells Hercules and he gets mad and leaves. Then Snow hears that Hercules and Meg were both killed by Cerberus. And thus, Snow realized that she ruined lives.

[KingOfHearts]

What was the point of Snow being Young Snow? Wouldn't it make more sense if the flashbacks occurred immediately after she was exiled from the palace? That way she wouldn't have been able to send knights to save the villagers and learning how to be Bandit Snow would have fit better into the timeline. Also, Regina's involvement wasn't necessary. The evil bandits could have been anyone. The fact they were working for the queen changed nothing. Was the teenage romance really enough to warrant that spot in the timeline?

 

[KAOS Agent]

It's possible they used Young Snow because of Ginny's pregnancy. But I think the point was to see Regina undermining Snow in the past and supporting her in the present and see Snow taking a leadership role such that we could see why the people would love her. They are also really fond of shoving Regina into a story (see: Swan Song), but I think that there is a level of awareness that they have a lot of characters moving on that only connect to one of the Storybrookers. Henry Sr was only relevant to Regina, Hercules was only relevant to Snow, etc. This Highway to Heaven thing they've got going on gets really boring if you don't care about the character whose centric it is because it's pretty much exclusively their show. Next week at least features a guest character who is not exclusively related to one regular, but even that one is going to be heavily featuring only one of the mains.

 

This is the problem with the way this arc is working. Unlike Season 1, where the featured centric character stuck around and was part of the fabric of the show, this season is way too much a one off and it's hard to get invested unless you care about the closure for the person sticking around. Yes, Emma gets a couple minutes of searching and we get a few minutes of Hook torture porn, but mostly it's all about the random story of the week.

[AudienceofOne]

Enjoyed this much more than the first episode, despite the re-appearance of Emma's lack of purity for the murder that wasn't. I'm glad I don't live in this moral system where Regina can do light magic despite mass murder, torture and rape while Emma is forever tarnished for self-defense.

 

I guess it's not a surprise that Hook is stuck in scenes with Hades, just like previous prisoners Henry (3A), Rumple (3B) and Rumple (5A) with their respective "villains".  Hopefully #FindHook won't drag out as long as #FindHenry and #FindAnna. 

 

Especially because we want them to find Hook soon so we can get our Captain Swan back but secretly hoped Emma wouldn't find Henry at all. Speaking of this show's Mensa candidate - no words.

 

I really hate when characters do something that doesn't seem to have a motive. I'm sure we'll find out some super douper reason why Hades is torturing Hook and I'm very very sure it won't be extremely silly and nonsensical at all. But for now we have to accept that he's doing it when he doesn't seem to have a reason for it. And it's annoying.

[PixiePaws1]

I really hate when characters do something that doesn't seem to have a motive. I'm sure we'll find out some super douper reason why Hades is torturing Hook and I'm very very sure it won't be extremely silly and nonsensical at all. But for now we have to accept that he's doing it when he doesn't seem to have a reason for it. And it's annoying.

..exactly...one line is all it would take..."If you'd got here when you were scheduled instead of constantly surviving all those years then I wouldn't be forced to make an example of you." or some such Edited March 16, 2016 by PixiePaws1

[tri4335]

AudienceofOne, on 16 Mar 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

    I really hate when characters do something that doesn't seem to have a motive. I'm sure we'll find out some super douper reason why Hades is torturing Hook and I'm very very sure it won't be extremely silly and nonsensical at all. But for now we have to accept that he's doing it when he doesn't seem to have a reason for it. And it's annoying.

 

 

..exactly...one line is all it would take..."If you'd got here when you were scheduled instead of constantly surviving all those years then I wouldn't be forced to make an example of you." or some such

 

My current theory is that Hook has so much love for Emma that Hades is trying to break that bond. It could also loosely explain why Meg was down there because as soon as she was free and killed the beast, she and Herc were able to move on. Hades cannot have people in his domain with love that strong.

[YaddaYadda]

My current theory is that Hook has so much love for Emma that Hades is trying to break that bond. It could also loosely explain why Meg was down there because as soon as she was free and killed the beast, she and Herc were able to move on. Hades cannot have people in his domain with love that strong.

 

 

But Hercules and Meg didn't even know each other, although they seemed to be making eyes at each other rather quickly.

 

I thought Meg being able to move on had more to do with someone putting their faith in her that she could overcome her fears and do what's right? Her parting line with Emma was to tell Hook how she wasn't wrong in trusting her, and that she did the right thing. There seems to be something there, maybe they cut one of the scenes that would have made all of this make sense like they always do.

[tri4335]

I didn't say it was GOOD theory....just my little head cannon until they ruin it with some half-assed explanation or worse don't offer one and it was all just torture porn!

[tennisgurl]

My problem with the use Meg and Herc here is that they could have been anybody. There was no reason to use famous mythological/Disney characters for those roles, except for their connection to the movie, which had Hades as a bad guy. I mean, Herc was alright, but poor Meg was horribly misused. If she was another, random person for the gang to save, she would have been a fine character as a one off, but this is an established character that a lot of their audience was attached to. I grew up with the Hercules movie, and yeah, its not one of Disneys best, but its a pretty likable movie, and Meg is a great character. And, I get her being all traumatized from being trapped in the underworld, but the writers contrived it so that she was going through that. They could have written her so that we saw her in flashbacks being sassy and cool, then show her all messed up, or had her just be in the underworld, without all the terror, or anything else they wanted to allow her to be snarky and morally ambiguous and interesting (add me to the list of people thinking she was working with Hades, both because of the movie, and because she`s Abigail Hobbs, queen of the giant eyes that go from sweet to psycho instantly). The writers are steering this ship, they can make it go anywhere they wanted. They had Herc and Meg, and they just wasted them. 

 

But, overall, not a bad outing. Hook being tough and heroic, Regina actually being likable, Charming being jealous in a non annoying way, not bad. But, for the love of God, could we PLEASE stop saying Emma murdered Cruella? I know a million people have said it before, it its worth repeating, Emma is not a murderer! 

[Delphi]

I'm mostly upset that I rewatched the movie in preparing for them being on the show. I didn't need them for the whole half season, but a few episodes would have been nice.

I have no idea why the had to be dead, I think it would have been much more interesting if they had actually been alive and Hades had trapped the two of them in the Underworld and instead their mission could have been releasing them back to the Once equivalent of ancient Greece.

That could also show that Hook could be saved somehow and not just move on to either heaven or hell.

[AudienceofOne]

I thought Meg was working with Herc simply because she was so one-dimensional when she was introduced. I now know she was that way because she'd been trapped in that prison for several thousand years and had lost hope. But at the time she was so damselly I thought she was bait.

[Camera One]

I'm mostly upset that I rewatched the movie in preparing for them being on the show. I didn't need them for the whole half season, but a few episodes would have been nice.

 

Nice to know I wasn't the only one.  Then again, I read 2 books on Camelot to prepare for 5A.  That sure paid off...

Edited March 16, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I know I'm the one who's been complaining about how bloodless this show is, but they have gone to the opposite end of the spectrum. What had annoyed me was violence without consequences. There were all those sword fights where they hit each other with the hilts rather than using the pointy ends. The main form of killing was heart-crushing, which just causes people to keel over. Any wound can be healed with a wave of the hand. So there was violence, but it amounted to cartoon violence, on a level with people getting pianos dropped on their heads and them just staggering away with stars circling their heads.

 

But with Hook now, we have blood--a consequence--without action or reason. Not that I want to watch him being tortured or wanted to watch him be savaged by a three-headed dog (I think Colin's facial expression leading up to the cutaway sold his terror), but it would be nice to get a line or two of dialogue explaining what's happening to him. Who is hurting him, by what means, and why? Him just being totally beat up and covered in blood for no reason other than shock is worse than all that consequence-free violence. It needs context, or else it's gratuitous gore. If we knew more about what was happening to him, we might better appreciate his bravery or would know he's being stupid.

[KingOfHearts]

Part of it was irrelevant, yes, but the part about him being a demi-God, I don't know that it was. They established the relationship between Hades and Hercules with the uncle and nephew route.

 

Hercules being Hades' nephew added nothing to the story either, though. Hades didn't seem to care, as you pointed out. Everyone in the Underworld seems to know you don't screw with Hades even without knowing him through a familial relation.

 

I still insist that Hercules was used just fine, it could not have been "anybody" because only Herc has the Cerberus connection

 

That isn't Hercules' defining characteristic though. If he had used his super-strength for something important only a supernaturally-gifted person could do, his identity would be utilized. While yes it would make sense for him to kill Cerberus, we saw that it really just took 3 people stabbing it at one time to kill it. So even if he fits, he's still not used like he could be. He could have been any earthly warrior and still complete what the episode required of him. The Greek mythology connection is a namedrop. 

 

I'm not saying it was inappropriate to use Hercules. (It's quite the opposite.) But training Snow to shoot arrows and then having to rely on others to defeat a CGI monster in the present doesn't match his iconography that well. Now, if Snow needed his super ability to kill a monster in the past or he was the only one capable of defeating Cerberus, then that would work. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Jul 68]

Deleted because I took my question to the magic thread.

It was in response to Shanna Marie's post.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Jul 68

[Camera One]

How did Regina know her mother was no longer around and won't be at the Mayor's office? As far as she knows, couldn't Cora return at any time?

Everyone's walking around town as if they're in Storybrooke or something. Did they ask Rumple if they could be struck down by Hades or be chased by blood-thirsty zombies? They even let Henry go off on his own the very first hour they got there.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Camera One

[macstarli]

Delurking because I've been thinking about this episode all week and I need to put it into actual words.

 

I haven't watched Once since somewhere early S4, but I kept up with it through this forum (you guys are great, btw) and I decided to give this ep a shot to see how the writers handle "the return to Snow White" and as much as I like the idea, the execution really leaves something to be desired for me and I've been trying to put my finger on why.

 

In the end I think it comes down to it seeming like the writers are trying to sell this grand idea, that this was somehow an arc story for Snow, that she lost herself during the curse and never found back to it and so now her reclaiming her actual name is the cumulation to that particular arc for her. When Snow tells Emma something like "You don't know this about me, but I used to be..." it bugged me, because wasn't the point of the princess arc in 2A for Emma to realize that the friend she needed to protect as Mary Margret wasn't who her mother as Snow White was? It feels like they're taking their crappy writing, realized people didn't like it, maybe even agreed with that assesment and decided to fix it, but by putting so much emphasis on it and pretending this is what they had written all along it felt off. I would have much rather had a more subtle approach, maybe more along the ways of "Okay, I tried doing things like this for a while, it didn't work, I'm gonna be doing it differently now", rather than saying that the cursed personality was still taking hold somehow, which isn't quite something we've seen to that extent with any other person.

 

It also feels disingenious, because as far as I remember over the course of the past 3 and a half seasons (S2 - S5A) I can't recall anybody really pointing this out as a problem in regards to Snow, though as I mentioned I skipped generous parts of that so I'm not ruling out that I missed some important information. Either way it made Reginas "It's about time" seem even more off than it already was, considering everything was getting blamed on the curse which obviously gives Regina a huge part of culpabilitly in that mess. Which brings me to the point that Regina was probably the worst possible option to be Snow's sounding board in this episode.

The part where Snow talks about everything she lost while talking to Regina makes it so obvious that an apology is so desperatly in order, but I can see why it didn't come from a writing standpoint, because Snow's arc for this ep didn't call for an apology, it called for a pep talk. Which is fine. Except then you can't give that talking point to Regina of all people!

 

If they really wanted someone for her to talk this over with someone who knew her as Snow White, let her talk with Charming and put the emphasis on how all the things she went through made her loose herself and now she wants to change that. Maybe throw in a line that she held on to the name Mary Margret because that's how Emma knew her and that it was a connection to a time, where she and Emma had an easier relationship and she knew what to do and what to say. Then she can give that up and try to redefine herself as Emma's Mom as Snow White, the person she actually is.

 

It's not an ideal solution, since after so long, everything was going to feel kinda hard to swallow for me, but I think if they hadn't tried to hit me over the head so much with "Look! She was Mary Margret! Now she's Snow White again! We're telling you, you're getting what you want!" and instead put the main focus on actually showing me that and if they had removed Regina, who really, really needs to apologize so badly, but can't in this episode even when confronted with her bad deeds, because the structure of the ep doesn't call for it, then I would have accepted it a lot easier. I do realize that the writers were in a tough position, if they wanted to undo some of the damage that had been done to Snow after all this time, because the longer it went on, the more they had to dismiss a huge part of their canon for Snow (3 1/2 half seasons of a show, that's only been running for about 4 1/2, if they want to go back to "the curse changed me"), which is obviously really hard.

 

So I am perfectly happy to not look a gift horse in the mouth if they actually stick to their promises and I can have Snow White back permanently, but I wish they could have done something that has been going on for so long proper justice. Because this really should have felt like such a victory after all the disapointment in Snow over the past seasons and it did at first, but even while I was still watching the ep I had to force myself to hold onto that and focus on taking the bad with the good, because I really, really want the good.

 

Also, I'm adding the disclaimer that I've only seen the ep once on Monday, so I'm basing this entirely on my impression of that. I can't remember if maybe some of the issues I had did get addressed to some extent, but it didn't stick with me, because it didn't seem to be done properly for my taste, or if maybe I warped some things into fact in my head that wasn't actually there, because of the general impression I got from the episode and, well, the entire show, which can bias how I read things.

Edited March 17, 2016 by macstarli

[jhlipton]

Anyone else do a spit-take when Hercules said "I'm a good judge of character"?  Hey, Herc, does the name Deianira mean anything to you?

If they're going to reference the Nemean Lion, they should have shown Herc wearing the pelt.

[Bishop]

I hate this so much. What were the writers thinking? Could the show get anymore depressing?

Hook is being inexplicably tortured by Hades and his pets? Why is he being tortured? Why do he and Emma have to go through this? It's far worse than any other fairytale. And really, who's going to let a kid watch this?

What has happened to my favorite show?

I don't feel that way.  I like the drama that Hook is going through because usually OUAT treats death and "suffering" like a joke.  I mean have we ever really seen a character go through what Hook is going through?  For me, it cements the drama and makes the Underworld seem more than just a cartoonish place.  Hades is ACTUALLY a scary, dangerous entity.  At various points, OUAT was starting to be a joke with its threats because nothing ever came of it.  When Hades makes a threat, he follows through.  Hook IS suffering and is helpless, and it's what I expected of the Underworld.  Yes, it's depressing, but it's also dramatic.  It adds emotional heft to the story, which I think OUAT was starting to lack.  I'm loving this storyline right now, and watching Hook defy Hades and endure his suffering to save his friends make THEIR journey to save him even more worthy.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Bishop