Unpopular Opinions: The Cheese Stands Alone (and That's Bad?)

[Maherjunkie]

I know he's not a favorite, but I have some sympathy for him in "All that Jazz".  His marriage is on the rocks, he lost his job, he's only been there a week? and Dorothy is on his case even though she herself has been divorced and has at least had to look for work, even if she is normally steadily employed.  

I thought of this because we rarely see Michael not living on his own, and a musician might live a different type of career as well.

[AndySmith]

I...wasn't the biggest fan of Miles.

[Maherjunkie]

Is there a reason?

[legaleagle53]

Maherjunkie, on 03 Mar 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:Maherjunkie, on 03 Mar 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

I know he's not a favorite, but I have some sympathy for him in "All that Jazz".  His marriage is on the rocks, he lost his job, he's only been there a week? and Dorothy is on his case even though she herself has been divorced and has at least had to look for work, even if she is normally steadily employed.  

I thought of this because we rarely see Michael not living on his own, and a musician might live a different type of career as well.

 

Here's the thing, though.  Michael brought all of that on himself by quitting his job with the band because he had a bad case of Peter Pan Syndrome like his father, which is what Dorothy was trying to cure him of.  She'd already gone through that with Stan, and that's why she was on Michael's case from the start.  Even Stan himself started complaining after Michael moved in with HIM to get away from Dorothy that Michael was "bleeding him dry" with his freeloading and irresponsible behavior and attitude.

Edited March 4, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Maherjunkie]

You do have a point-was the breaking they wanted him to wear a tie?

[Blakeston]

You do have a point-was the breaking they wanted him to wear a tie?

Yep.

 

My unpopular opinion is that I'm not crazy about Dorothy's "No, she's _____ because ______" zingers. (As in, "No, Blanche, she's upset because they keep changing the taste of Coke," or, "No, Rose, she's depressed because Marblehead Manor is only on once a week.")

 

Dorothy's sarcasm was usually great, but those jokes just felt so cheap (not to mention shoehorned in).

[Snow Apple]

One thing I dislike about Dorothy is she never believes Sophia about anything. For example, Sophia's talk about meeting celebrities. Sure it does sound unbelievable but she also didn't believe Sophia when she went to that Burt Reynold's event. The girls had expected to meet all those celebrities but when Sophia bragged, she's all "You're just rubbing it in. You. Have. Never. Met. Any. Of. These. People." Why not? They were all in the same room.

[Maherjunkie]

I have to disagree with you Blakeston, only because I never saw Dorothy's lines fall flat, except for Stan's family smelling their fingers after eating chicken.

[legaleagle53]

One thing I dislike about Dorothy is she never believes Sophia about anything. For example, Sophia's talk about meeting celebrities. Sure it does sound unbelievable but she also didn't believe Sophia when she went to that Burt Reynold's event. The girls had expected to meet all those celebrities but when Sophia bragged, she's all "You're just rubbing it in. You. Have. Never. Met. Any. Of. These. People." Why not? They were all in the same room.

 

That's what made it all the sweeter when Sophia not only got even by letting Dorothy, Rose, and Blanche sit in jail for a few more hours while she went to the party in their place after they mistakenly got arrested for prostitution, but she also had the last word by having Burt pick her up at the house.  After all, they had been rubbing HER nose in the fact that she had been deliberately left out of the event, but in the end, "Who cares? I'm going out with Burt Reynolds!"

Edited March 6, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Blakeston]

I have to disagree with you Blakeston, only because I never saw Dorothy's lines fall flat, except for Stan's family smelling their fingers after eating chicken.

Oh, I don't think they fell flat. It just felt like a very paint-by-the-numbers way to write dialogue.

[fitzcarraldo]

I...wasn't the biggest fan of Miles.

He was so patronizing! Always that bordering on baby talk voice to Rose.

[Maherjunkie]

I thought they were an odd but good match.

 

I thought Blanche should have kept the bonds!

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I hated Miles because Harold Gould was always mugging for the camera in the MOST obvious way. His trademark facial expression was "I. Am. Deeply. Hurt. ON TELEVISION!"

[Maherjunkie]

As a Suze Orman viewer I still wish they had at least cashed the bonds one at a time given the way the show talked about women growing older and money.

[LilWharveyGal]

Here's one...

 

"My baby is gone," is not a powerful, emotional moment for me.  I actually find myself looking away during that scene because the (IMO) bad acting gives me secondhand embarrassment.

 

*runs away*

[redlaces]

Here's one...

 

"My baby is gone," is not a powerful, emotional moment for me.  I actually find myself looking away during that scene because the (IMO) bad acting gives me secondhand embarrassment.

 

*runs away*

 

Agreed. I also feel that way about Rose when she breaks down after the robbery.

[Bastet]

I also feel that way about Rose when she breaks down after the robbery.

 

Ugh, yes.  That episode was on tonight, and while I was generally just watching it during commercial breaks in something else, I had to make sure to stick around for "You shot my vase"/"I'd rather you shot Lester" and Blanche's tale of macing herself ... and make sure to check out before Rose's "For me, they'll always be here" freak-out.  It's so terribly done.

[Maherjunkie]

Because we rarely see them go to that degree of melodrama?  I liked that scene.

[Bastet]

No, because it's badly acted.

[Maherjunkie]

Oh.  I found her believable, but I don't know much about acting.

[Bastet]

Well, there's certainly a good degree of subjectivity in evaluating acting; I was just clarifying that disliking the acting in certain scenes is what I was agreeing with in saying I don't watch them -- someone said they didn't like Sophia's "My baby is gone" scene because they find Getty's acting of it cringe-inducing, someone else said they agree, and feel the same way about White's acting of the robbery scene, and then I chimed in.

[redlaces]

Sophia crying over Phil also makes me cringe, not as much as Purple Rain, and family members having a penchant for beastiality, but close. Also in the robbery episode when Rose is running through the parking garage, I crack up. Just the look on her face. It's still one of my favorites though. "They thought I was on angel dust!" Oh! Since I brought it up, it made me remember a clip I saw of Rue telling Betty a joke on set. 

[Blakeston]

Oh my god, that's hilarious!

 

What I wouldn't have given to hang out with them, just listening to them tell jokes.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

It's so funny how certain episodes can be my favorites but with absolutely horrible parts (I love The Break In, especially Blanche's story about the cops thinking she was on Angel Dust but hate the whole "In my mind, they'll always be here" and some of my absolutely least favorite episodes have parts that have me rolling (I can't stand Sick and Tired by laugh so hard at Blanche's sleep deprived state and seeing "little balls of sunshine in a bag").

 

My UO is that I don't like Stan.  At all. I can't think of a single episode that I actually enjoyed him. And the idea of any women getting down and dirty with him is repulsive so him always talking about being a chick magnet and comments about "between the sheets" is just gross.

[Gothish520]

On 2/19/2018 at 5:27 PM, BlancheDevoreaux said:

My UO is that I don't like Stan.  At all. I can't think of a single episode that I actually enjoyed him. And the idea of any women getting down and dirty with him is repulsive so him always talking about being a chick magnet and comments about "between the sheets" is just gross.

I totally agree, I never liked Stan. I don't know how he ever got any woman to sleep with him, at least at the age he was on the show. Maybe when he and Dorothy first met he had some charm, but he lost it all by the time we met him!

[Blergh]

OK, here's an unpopular opinion: while I didn't like Stan, I thought at SOME point someone (like Sophia) should have told Dorothy that since her 38-year long union with him had been the pits from the very beginning, she should have tried to work towards being RELIEVED it was over (even  though it was Stan's doing) and that her life had been much better since the split. Thus, instead of poisoning herself with her grudge that he'd ended it, she should have worked towards being indifferent to him  rather than getting upset if any other female expressed an interest to him!

[MoistestCake]

On 14/03/2016 at 3:26 PM, Maherjunkie said:

Because we rarely see them go to that degree of melodrama?  I liked that scene.

Interesting point. Death of a child and invasion of your safety at home are a very big deal. Mostly they're just upset about men. 

I actually find that Sophia's realising she missed out on Phil's life because she was embarrassed by his crossdreing very powerful. 

[Gothish520]

3 hours ago, MoistestCake said:

Interesting point. Death of a child and invasion of your safety at home are a very big deal. Mostly they're just upset about men. 

I actually find that Sophia's realising she missed out on Phil's life because she was embarrassed by his crossdreing very powerful. 

I agree. I find both that scene and the Rose robbery scene uncomfortable, but not because I think the acting is bad - I think it's because the emotions are raw, and that is something that the show rarely displayed, as @Maherjunkie said upthread.

[Goldenfan85]

I agree- I thought Rose's breakdown made a lot of sense coming from someone who knows about anxiety problems. 

I think some of Dorothy's sarcasm can get a bit old but I don't really mind. When watching Season 6 and 7, you start to understand what Bea was talking about when she said "Sophia got meaner, Blanche got sexier, Rose got dumber"(roughly paraphrased from a source I can't remember at the moment). They took Sophia's mean attitude towards Dorothy to an extreme that I found off putting. Some of the storylines with Blanche's men were horrible-the pharmacy guy , the guy in the wheelchair which felt kind of pointless. Season 6 is stronger on rewatches while Season 7 is weaker on rewatches to me even though both have their issues. I didn't mind Rose so much though but I thought she could be used in a preachy way later on in the show starting with 72 Hours which is an important episode in highlighting the horrible way doctors make you wait for information with life or death matters but Rose felt like the mouthpiece for the show's political standings. She definitely also is used that way in Rose Fights Back which again is another important point that the show is making but it takes some authenticity out of the characters. Some of the stuff with her new job weren't as interesting or as funny as when was talking about her work at the counseling center. I think they also added too many characters into it. The girls from Empty Nest were funny but without the context I honestly was confused when I first saw it. The whole Cheese Man plot was terrible although it produced a really moving moment for Rose when Miles leaves with telling her to read a poem from the book that he left her. 

[schnauzergirl]

I love The Golden Girls; they're my comfort TV.  But every time I watch Season 7, it's clear that the time had come to close out the series.  I know Bea wanted to leave after #6 and was persuaded to stay one more year.  Sorry to say that new episodes would have been more of the same -- Dummy Rose and her St.  Olaf stories, desperate Blanche dating every guy who looked at her, Dorothy being a sarcastic loner, and Sophia descending into more unwarranted ugliness toward her daughter.  Sure, there would have been hilarious moments, but nothing we haven't seen and heard dozens of times before.  Unless, of course, an innovative band of writers had been brought in.  The problem there would have been the fact we know the characters so well -- strengths, weaknesses, foibles, etc.  -- any drastic changes would have been tough.  This is why the One Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest episodes are among my favorites.  They give Dorothy, the one least likely to find her guy, a touching send-off into what promises to be a wonderful new life.  Rose, Blanche, and Sophia have each other and we're left to imagine what happens. They buy The Golden Palace, but that's another story.

[Hiyo]

I like to pretend Golden Palace never happened. In my head cannon, Blanche, Rose, and Sophia stay at the house and invite Truby (Debbie Reynold's character) to move in with them, now that Dorothy is really gone...and Truby accepts. Granted, Truby was a bit on the Blanche side of things, but still.

[eatsleep]

I always felt Dorothy and Sophia should have been Jewish, Instead Italian American. They just weren't as believable as Italian imo. All of the major details could stay the same (Brooklyn, immigrant, likes to cook, teacher, etc.) "Yutz" gives it away.

Not sure why they had to be Italian...

[BigBingerBro]

3 hours ago, eatsleep said:

They just weren't as believable as Italian

Whenever Sofia speaks in Italian, it makes me cringe.  She sounds like an uninterested teenage boy in their first foreign language class.

I think Estelle Getty asked the producers why the charater couldn't be jewish instead, since she was and could play it that way better.  I guess they were hel-bent on them being Eye-Tailian.

[msani19]

23 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Whenever Sofia speaks in Italian, it makes me cringe.

The way she spoke Italian was AWFUL! They couldn't get her a dialect coach to make it sound believable? At least I hope that they didn't get her coaching because it was appalling. The episode where they had the to replace the bathroom and she found that old Italian guy and "spoke" Italian to him, was not even laughable. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by msani19

[Madding crowd]

I always wondered why they Sophia Italian yet she kept using the word Yutz! Of course both she and her sister Angela should have had an Italian accent but that would be hard to pull off. I know a ton of immigrants and many have been here 30 years or more and they have a trace of an accent. There are people who lose their accent completely but most don’t.

[BigBingerBro]

Most of the other Italian characters pulled off the Italian accents much better than Sophia and Angela.  Uncle Angelo, Philomena and Dominic Bosco, Vincenzo the contractor, etc

[scarynikki12]

I always assumed it was in support of Dorothy's backstory of marrying Stan when she got pregnant in high school. Letting the audience know that they're Catholic gives a shortcut to understanding why they married in spite of Sophia hating him. I'm sure many cultures in the 40s pressured unmarried pregnant girls/women to marry the baby daddy but having them be Catholic doesn't require as much explanation. As for the Italian thing it could just be something they picked once they decided on making them Catholic. Or maybe they love Italian food and this was how they incorporated it into the show.

I'm trying to remember if they mention Dorothy and Sophia specifically being Italian and/or Catholic in the pilot. Dorothy mentions being forced to marry Stan, prompting Rose's "you had a blow gun wedding?" question but I don't remember any specific cultural connection. If I'm remembering right then maybe the Italian Catholic part of the characterization came after receiving notes on the pilot. We know they got rid of Coco, made Estelle a regular, and changed it so that Stan and Dorothy were both in high school when she got pregnant rather than the initial implication that he was much older, so I can imagine some executive wanting more detail on why Dorothy was forced to marry him and them adding Italian Catholic to the character histories.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm trying to remember if they mention Dorothy and Sophia specifically being Italian and/or Catholic in the pilot.

Catholic, no, Italian, yes.  When Rose says grief takes time (about Blanche holing up in her room after finding out about the bigamist), Dorothy says "If you're Irish, you have a wake; you eat, you cry, you drink, you vomit, and you're done.  If you're Jewish, you cry, you sit, you eat for 7 days, you put on 10 pounds, and it's over.  We Italians scream, dress up a donkey, hire a band, and that's that.  It's these Southern Protestants who make it a way of life."

There are explicit references to being Catholic later (e.g. "I'm Catholic, I can't spread a wise man on a Ritz cracker" and when Sophia says it's time for Temple and Dorothy reminds her it's Tuesday, and they're Catholic), but I could have sworn there was one odd episode where Dorothy says they're not Catholic, except it's not coming to me so I must be mixing it up with another show.

[schnauzergirl]

Remember The Pope's Ring?  And the episode where Sophia reminds Dorothy she's a good Catholic girl and is to keep both feet on the floor at all times?  There was also a time when Sophia talked about fish on Friday and how she preferred the mass in Latin.  Once Sophia became a regular, she also became a story teller and "Picture it, Sicily, 1922" was born.  

[Madding crowd]

Then Sophia briefly became a nun and said her best friend was a nun. She also went to confession in the episode where Dorothy had the crush on a priest. 

[Blakeston]

I'm guessing the producers insisted on them being Italian because Hollywood writers think of Italians as being comedy gold. There were a whole lot of jokes (and the occasional plotline) that wouldn't have been possible if they weren't Catholic.

[Hiyo]

I had no problem with them being Italian and not Jewish.

[kathyk24]

I loved Dorothy and Sophia and hated Rose. Dorothy could be sarcastic but she was honest. Rose would say something mean with a smile and nobody noticed. I don't blame Sophia for being upset that Phil was a cross-dresser. She probably blamed herself and was worried he'd be put in a mental hospital because that used to be a psychological disorder. I didn't blame Blanche for being upset that her father was marrying a younger who she didn't know. I would feel the same way if it were my dad.

[Eri]

Fun Fact: Estelle Getty actually wanted Sophia to be Jewish (like herself) rather than Italian, to make it easier for her to portray the sharp-tongued character as she was the least experienced of the four actresses. It could've worked since Bea Arthur was also raised Jewish but since the producers refused to do the switch, she slowly got comfortable in the role and vowed to portray the best Sophia she possibly could.

I'd say it worked since her memories of Sicily became some of the best moments of the show.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Eri