S01.E06: Star City 2046

[FurryFury]

If they start life over as babies, somewhere along the line that means each generation's Kendra and Carter has reproduced.  We saw that old professor was the son of that generation's Carter and Kendra.  So then how did we get to the current Carter and Kendra.  Did the professor then have a child that ended up being Kendra?  Time travel makes my head hurt, and maybe the logistics of this reincarnation does as well.

 

From what I understand, it's not genetic at all. Otherwise they would have to be related, which is squicky for some (or many) people. They are probably reincarnated into random people.

 

why doesn't Kendra just kill herself, save us from her terrible acting, and just wait to rise again.  Rip can try to beat Savage again in 25 years.

 

Because she's not sure Savage won't conquer the world until she's reborn again. Plus, it's not like she cares about Hawkman that much. She seems to be conflicted about him.

[Wishing Well]

I have an idea, Hawkgirl should take Savage's offer from a bit back to find a way to become immortal, off him too, and that way she never dies and Hawkman won't come back.

Problem solved!

[FurryFury]

She'd probably have to prove her loyalty in a number of ways though.

Eww.

[spaulding]

I love Sara, and she's great in every episode.  She was right about the moral equivalence between saving Star City 2046 and Rip Hunter's future.  He should have apologized to her.  The death of his wife and child were a huge motivation for assembling the team.  He wanted to save the world, but so did Sara.  If Star City 2046 was burning, the rest of the world would follow.

 

I don't like the conflict between Heatwave and Cold.  Seems like it's setting Heatwave to betray the team.  I like that Cold is begrudgingly becoming an anti-hero.  I'm hoping that he never stops lifting wallets. 

 

I don't watch Arrow, so I wish this show would focus on its mission and this team. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by spaulding

[blackwing]

I don't watch Arrow, so I wish this show would focus on its mission and this team. 

But that would mean Vandal Savage in every episode, and I can't stand Vandal Savage.  He's a terrible character and terribly acted.  He just oozes slime, and you have to wonder why anyone would ever listen to or follow him.  He reminds me a lot in looks and slime of another character I really hated, Ashur from Spartacus.

[Sakura12]

I still love it so much that CL does her own fighting stunts.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCRNBo9uGZW/

[spaulding]

But that would mean Vandal Savage in every episode, and I can't stand Vandal Savage.  He's a terrible character and terribly acted.  He just oozes slime, and you have to wonder why anyone would ever listen to or follow him.  He reminds me a lot in looks and slime of another character I really hated, Ashur from Spartacus.

 

That's true.  I'm not crazy about this version of Savage.  He's the Big Bad for S1, so it's inevitable that he's going to be a major player.  I was surprised that he wasn't the reason that Star City was burning. 

 

BTW, why is Rip Hunter's future the de facto timeline?  Repeatedly, he said that Star City 2046 was a potential timeline, which is why he didn't feel that saving Connor was necessary.  The future is fluid, which is why Hunter is traveling in time to stop Savage's rise to power.  From Hunter's perspective, his future is all he knows.  (Do the Time Masters know everything about time and the future?)  From Connor Hawke's perspective, Star City 2046 is all he knows.

[slayer2]

The Bottle Episode!

 

I'm actually really looking forward to next week.  I love the character interaction. 

 

From the brief clip and description it reminds me SO much of the episode of Firefly that starts with Mal all by himself on the floor of Serenity.

 

ETA: That was some entertaining tv. Always down for Sara/Ollie scenes and loved loved loved Little Diggle. Heart of gold that guy, love that Ollie and Little Diggle will be working together, wish I could watch THAT show instead of what's on Arrow now.

 

VG and FD continue to have lovely chemistry, I do enjoy watching them together so much, and Sara is still my favourite one and only. Her telling Rip to "Go to hell" is just the kind of awesomeness I've come to expect from my girl. Right in the feels.

Edited February 27, 2016 by slayer2

[lion10]

That's true.  I'm not crazy about this version of Savage.  He's the Big Bad for S1, so it's inevitable that he's going to be a major player.  I was surprised that he wasn't the reason that Star City was burning. 

 

BTW, why is Rip Hunter's future the de facto timeline?  Repeatedly, he said that Star City 2046 was a potential timeline, which is why he didn't feel that saving Connor was necessary.  The future is fluid, which is why Hunter is traveling in time to stop Savage's rise to power.  From Hunter's perspective, his future is all he knows.  (Do the Time Masters know everything about time and the future?)  From Connor Hawke's perspective, Star City 2046 is all he knows.

 

Maybe Vandal Savage is such a huge deal because all, or a strong majority of timelines converge to his eventual control over the Earth.

[kismet]

It was a great ARROW episode. But it was also just an enjoyable hour of TV. Entertaining from beginning to end. Loved Old Man Oliver. Loved Diggle Jr. Hated Sara's hair. Hated the Love triangle.

 

Love how Cold & Rip are really just softies... a lot of bark but not much bite. Glad to see Sara fighting for her city. Glad Ray stayed on the ship. He really sucks at stealth missions which is why he had to stay on the ship. And then once Sara went Rogue, I think Rip just wanted to minimize collateral damage, esp with Cold & Heatwave on the lamb.

[KirkB]

Did Rip and Sara even notice Cold and Heat weren't around? I mean, I know they were busy, with the Hawke sighting and all, but they left them on that bus and pretty much never brought them up again.

Edited February 27, 2016 by KirkB

[slayer2]

Did Rip and Sara even notice Cold and Heat weren't around? I mean, I know they were busy, with the Hawke sighting and all, but they left them on that bus and pretty much never brought them up again.

 

At this point, unless Rip is a total moron (and I'm not ruling that out) he must be aware that whatever you tell ColdWave to do, they're going to do the opposite (and attempt to steal something concurrently).

Edited February 27, 2016 by slayer2

[Potanical Pardon]

OK, that's what I suspected.  When they get reborn, do they start life again as babies, and then somewhere in adulthood, the hawk spirit possesses them?  They looked exactly the same in Ancient Egypt, so I'm wondering exactly how this works.  If they start life over as babies, somewhere along the line that means each generation's Kendra and Carter has reproduced.  We saw that old professor was the son of that generation's Carter and Kendra.  So then how did we get to the current Carter and Kendra.  Did the professor then have a child that ended up being Kendra?  Time travel makes my head hurt, and maybe the logistics of this reincarnation does as well.

 

Since they looked exactly the same in Ancient Egypt, does this mean that every Carter looks like Carter and every Kendra looks like Kendra?  Carter died in this generation before presumably producing a baby Carter.  So how do they get a Carter in the next generation.  So confused.  It would have been better if they just said the hawk spirits choose someone to be their avatar each generation.

 

If Carter and Kendra are soulmates and destined to be with each other, why doesn't Kendra just kill herself, save us from her terrible acting, and just wait to rise again.  Rip can try to beat Savage again in 25 years.

 

I'll try my best...

 

The Hawks do not have to reincarnate through their descendants, though it has happened kindof-sortof in the comics. They can reincarnate through different races, bloodlines. They start out just like everyone else...as a baby, as someone's kid. It's not the original Khufu and Chayera DNA, it's the DNA from whomever that baby's actual parents are. It's the soul/memories that graft onto that person at conception. In the comics, they both do not have to die before the reincarnation cycle restarts. It begins individually, though not necessarily immediately after death, i.e., a Hawk dies, and some baby that happens to be born that same day is the new Khufu/Chayera - that isn't what happens. Oddly, the reincarnation could coexist in time, predating the death of himself/herself.

 

In recent comics, though not current continuity, Carter Hall did not die, though he was thought to have, while his wife, Shiera Sanders Hall, did during the same event. Shiera reincarnated in her own grand-niece, Kendra Sanders (Saunders...it keeps changing), upon her suicide attempt. The interpretation of this is shaky; some believe Shiera's soul took over Kendra's body when Kendra's soul left at suicide. There's evidence that whoever Kendra is, has both Shiera and her own memories; so the argument could be made either way - that it's Kendra's soul with Shiera's memories or it's Shiera's soul with Kendra's memories. I believe and lean towards the it's always been the original Chayera soul as that goes with the reincarnation schtick, and each instance of her goes through this confused state of not knowing who her true identity is and then never gets resolved (in other words, one writer says one thing, a later writer changes it, and subsequent writers go back and forth or screw it up further by not doing their research). Anywho...later on the same Carter Hall essentially tries to shack up with Kendra-Shiera, who is his grand-niece (sidenote: Carter and Shiera Hall have not really aged much since WWII, because short-version: magic, so they'd be closer biologically in age to the twenty-something grandniece, Kendra, as all of this is going on). But this story basically explains my conclusions in the first paragraph. Also, I'm pretty sure that whole Arrow/Flash exercise/scene of her jumping off that building was a shoutout to Kendra's suicide attempt resulting in her becoming Hawkgirl/Shiera's soul entering/merging/activating/whatever in her.

 

Interestingly, Carter and Shiera DID have a child, Hector Hall, who somehow inherited the reincarnation thing with a twist. This is going to get super confusing right here. He died as the hero, Silver Scarab, in the present time. Another hero named Dawn Granger (Dove) is pregnant by her boyfriend, Hank Hall (who may or may not be related by last name to the Hawkman/Hawkwoman Halls) and who goes by the hero name, Hawk...LOL, told ya. Anyways, it turns out that baby is special and no one knows why. The baby is born and magically aged to adulthood instantly with white/grey hair and a goatee and turns out to be...Hector Hall, complete with memories, because he's fated to become the latest Dr. Fate. And Dr. Fate is chosen/powered by the helmet and amulet of Nabu, who happened to be the priest/sorcerer/whatever buddy friend of original recipe Khufu and Chayera during ancient Egypt. And Hector totally interacts with dad (Carter), Kendra (who may or may not be his mom), and his bio-mom, but not bio-dad because Hank-Hawk at this point in the continuity went psycho evil and is essentially an entirely different person with time-travel powers and anger issues named Extant.

 

Trust me, the Hawkfamily gets even crazier than the above. There's Wonder Woman lore, Green Lantern lore, Sandman lore, Teen Titans lore, and Jonah Hex lore that weaves in and out of their history. I didn't even get into the whole Hawkpeople planet and Hawkman/Hawkwoman that come from there whose names just had to be Katar Hol and Shayera Thal Hol.

 

As for the same actors being used for ancient Egypt Khufu, Chayera and Hath-Set/Vandal Savage, I think the show did it just to simplify understanding for the audience as a visual thing. Technically, I wish they had not merged Hath-Set and Vandal Savage from the comics. Vandal Savage is supposed to be much older than that...he's biblical Cain or he's the caveman that discovered fire. I like to think both are fictionally the same dude. The current continuity in comics messed with that in a similar way merging two Hawk villains into one, Hath-Set and Shadow Thief (or maybe that was the JL Animated).

Edited February 27, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[KirkB]

See, I don't get why they couldn't just use Hath-Set, since he has everything they need. An Egyptian priest who hunts the Hawks through time. Make him immortal in the same event that caused the Hawks to reincarnate and he could still come up with a way to take over the world in the future. I don't understand why they felt the need to merge him with Vandal Savage, who is a far older and more interesting character. It's not like name recognition is a factor since neither one is going to be too well known outside of fairly small comics circles.

[nksarmi]

At this point, unless Rip is a total moron (and I'm not ruling that out) he must be aware that whatever you tell ColdWave to do, they're going to do the opposite (and attempt to steal something concurrently).

 

Well sometimes they will do what you ask them to do AND try to steal something while they are at it.

[nksarmi]

I wish they had done the Vandal Savage cave man story.  But perhaps because he was so difficult to defeat (and ultimately they never did, right?), he was a little too big for a television show.

[Lokiberry]

I believe Rip Hunter has a comic book history of battling Savage. I think this was a case of them trying  to combine two separate comic storylines into one: Hath-Set and the Hawks, and Vandal Savage and Rip Hunter.

[KirkB]

If they were insistent on using Vandal Savage, which I get because he's an interesting character, then why bother linking him with the Hawks and Hath-Set? Rip has a history with Savage and enlists a bunch of nobodies to help fight him, one of whom happens to be Hawkgirl. It seems to me that combining the two makes the whole thing harder to swallow. Kendra may be the only one who can kill him but he can sense her coming from a mile away, which means as long as she is with them he will always know they're around even before he sees them.

Edited February 27, 2016 by KirkB

[wayne67]

I find the premise and plot of this show frequently nonsensical, contradictory and confusing but I find the characters amusing so I go along for the ride for the most part.

 

I think this is the first episode I laughed at anything that Kendra has to say. It was nice to see her interacting with Ray and Jax more even though the love triangle angle was a bit forced. How long have they been a team ? A week ? A month?

 

This episode main plot in Star City doesn't do much for me because I don't watch Arrow since season 2 so it was like meh seeing Green Arrow 2.0. Also 60 year olds aren't that agile. How the hell was that kid part of the uprising? Wouldn't he have been 12 at the time if it happened 15 years ago. Seriously I have no idea what any of that was about. 

[spaulding]

Maybe Vandal Savage is such a huge deal because all, or a strong majority of timelines converge to his eventual control over the Earth.

 

I thought that too.  But I can't imagine Vandal Savage is the Big Bad of everything.  At least not this version of Savage.  He comes off as any other crime lord.

 

At this point, unless Rip is a total moron (and I'm not ruling that out) he must be aware that whatever you tell ColdWave to do, they're going to do the opposite (and attempt to steal something concurrently).

 

I think Rip is a moron.  The team wins despite him.  Sara has a lot to do with the success of the team.

[Starfish35]

This was probably my least favorite episode since the premiere. Which surprised me actually. I was looking forward to it. But it felt entirely too much like an Arrow episode, and while I'm still watching Arrow......let's just say I'm pretty frustrated with the show at the moment. So getting a second dose in the same week wasn't as exciting as I thought it was going to be. And while I liked Connor/John Diggle Jr., I'm going to vote no on him joining them on the Waverider (not that my vote counts for anything). I guess I am just entirely over guys with bows and arrows right now. So why am I still watching Arrow you may ask? I have no idea, but I suppose it's a subject for another forum.

I've always enjoyed Oliver's and Sara's connection, so I did enjoy seeing her get to re-inspire him to take up the fight. It was cool that the new Green Arrow turned out to be Diggle's son, though I too saw no in-show reason for him to have picked that name, other than that the writers thought it would be cool.

Grant Wilson does not nearly have the on-screen menace of his father. Manu Bennett's Slade Wilson has put almost all other Arrow villains to shame. Vandal Savage only wishes he could be as scary as Slade Wilson was. Seriously, they messed up casting Savage. They needed someone with Manu Bennett's screen presence, and that's not Casper Crump, sadly.

I thought Rip's "hello beautiful" to the piece of equipment was shades of Matt Smith's Doctor.

I did not care for the love triangle. At all. They can stop that right now. I thought Kendra had some cute moments with both Jax and Ray, but please show, no love triangle. Stein's bumbling attempts at helping were a bit amusing though.

Kendra is sweet, but I really need them to develop more of a personality for her than "sweet."

I found the conflict between Cold and Heatwave intriguing. Snart's priorities are changing, but Mick's aren't, at least not as much. As bizarre as it seems, I felt a little sorry for him during that last scene. And I thought it was interesting that Ray seemed to be genuinely sympathetic, not mocking.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[spaulding]

I found the conflict between Cold and Heatwave intriguing. Snart's priorities are changing, but Mick's aren't, at least not as much. As bizarre as it seems, I felt a little sorry for him during that last scene. And I thought it was interesting that Ray seemed to be genuinely sympathetic, not mocking.

 

I felt bad for Mick.  Cold basically crapped on him.  Then, cold-cocked him.  I hope that he develops a friendship with Ray.

[BkWurm1]

Good episode, though Deathstroke Jr was a bit of a charisma free baddie and a little too quickly taken out in the end.

 

Ya know, I was so busy trying to figure out how old Diggle Jr was and if that meant Diggle Sn was safe from the Arrow grave that it took me until now to realize that Grant Slade had to be like ten or fifteen when he lead an army on against Star City.  Diggle Jr wasn't that old but mini deathstroke wasn't much older and he showed up 15 years ago???  Mmm, something doesn't work there. 

 

I like that Cold is begrudgingly becoming an anti-hero.  I'm hoping that he never stops lifting wallets.

 

 

 

It was funny how antsy he was.  He was like fine, you've had your fun, now lets get back to the real world and seemed really flabbergasted that Mick didn't feel just as strongly about their ultimate mission.  He may still be fine with stealing and a well placed murder here and there, but he seems more sold on this mission than even Sara.  I was fine with her helping GA 2.0 and playing with Old Man Oliver but Rip was right too, if they were just going to fix and change the timeline then she was wasting time.  If she really wanted to be effective that's the time to fix the Waverider and then zip back to do important 2016 stuff so 2046 goes different for sure. 

 

From the brief clip and description it reminds me SO much of the episode of Firefly that starts with Mal all by himself on the floor of Serenity.

 

 

"Out of Gas" is the exact episode that came to my mind as well.  I'll try to keep my expectations lower than that though, ;)

 

 

 

I'll try my best...

 

The Hawks do not have to reincarnate through their descendants, though it has happened kindof-sortof in the comics. They can reincarnate through different races, bloodlines. They start out just like everyone else...as a baby, as someone's kid. It's not the original Khufu and Chayera DNA, it's the DNA from whomever that baby's actual parents are. It's the soul/memories that graft onto that person at conception. In the comics, they both do not have to die before the reincarnation cycle restarts. It begins individually, though not necessarily immediately after death, i.e., a Hawk dies, and some baby that happens to be born that same day is the new Khufu/Chayera - that isn't what happens. Oddly, the reincarnation could coexist in time, predating the death of himself/herself.

 

In recent comics, though not current continuity, Carter Hall did not die, though he was thought to have, while his wife, Shiera Sanders Hall, did during the same event. Shiera reincarnated in her own grand-niece, Kendra Sanders (Saunders...it keeps changing), upon her suicide attempt. The interpretation of this is shaky; some believe Shiera's soul took over Kendra's body when Kendra's soul left at suicide. There's evidence that whoever Kendra is, has both Shiera and her own memories; so the argument could be made either way - that it's Kendra's soul with Shiera's memories or it's Shiera's soul with Kendra's memories. I believe and lean towards the it's always been the original Chayera soul as that goes with the reincarnation schtick, and each instance of her goes through this confused state of not knowing who her true identity is and then never gets resolved (in other words, one writer says one thing, a later writer changes it, and subsequent writers go back and forth or screw it up further by not doing their research). Anywho...later on the same Carter Hall essentially tries to shack up with Kendra-Shiera, who is his grand-niece (sidenote: Carter and Shiera Hall have not really aged much since WWII, because short-version: magic, so they'd be closer biologically in age to the twenty-something grandniece, Kendra, as all of this is going on). But this story basically explains my conclusions in the first paragraph. Also, I'm pretty sure that whole Arrow/Flash exercise/scene of her jumping off that building was a shoutout to Kendra's suicide attempt resulting in her becoming Hawkgirl/Shiera's soul entering/merging/activating/whatever in her.

 

Interestingly, Carter and Shiera DID have a child, Hector Hall, who somehow inherited the reincarnation thing with a twist. This is going to get super confusing right here. He died as the hero, Silver Scarab, in the present time. Another hero named Dawn Granger (Dove) is pregnant by her boyfriend, Hank Hall (who may or may not be related by last name to the Hawkman/Hawkwoman Halls) and who goes by the hero name, Hawk...LOL, told ya. Anyways, it turns out that baby is special and no one knows why. The baby is born and magically aged to adulthood instantly with white/grey hair and a goatee and turns out to be...Hector Hall, complete with memories, because he's fated to become the latest Dr. Fate. And Dr. Fate is chosen/powered by the helmet and amulet of Nabu, who happened to be the priest/sorcerer/whatever buddy friend of original recipe Khufu and Chayera during ancient Egypt. And Hector totally interacts with dad (Carter), Kendra (who may or may not be his mom), and his bio-mom, but not bio-dad because Hank-Hawk at this point in the continuity went psycho evil and is essentially an entirely different person with time-travel powers and anger issues named Extant.

 

Trust me, the Hawkfamily gets even crazier than the above. There's Wonder Woman lore, Green Lantern lore, Sandman lore, Teen Titans lore, and Jonah Hex lore that weaves in and out of their history. I didn't even get into the whole Hawkpeople planet and Hawkman/Hawkwoman that come from there whose names just had to be Katar Hol and Shayera Thal Hol.

 

As for the same actors being used for ancient Egypt Khufu, Chayera and Hath-Set/Vandal Savage, I think the show did it just to simplify understanding for the audience as a visual thing. Technically, I wish they had not merged Hath-Set and Vandal Savage from the comics. Vandal Savage is supposed to be much older than that...he's biblical Cain or he's the caveman that discovered fire. I like to think both are fictionally the same dude. The current continuity in comics messed with that in a similar way merging two Hawk villains into one, Hath-Set and Shadow Thief (or maybe that was the JL Animated).

 

Ha!  I love your very thorough explanation.  I went down that rabbit hole a few years back when I was doing research for a Smallville Hawkman/Chloe fanfic.  (One of the odder things I've ever been driven to do but oddly one of the more effective)  There are some comic book characters that making their past line up is near impossible.  I love that everyone when the Hawks were announced had to stop and figure out which insane backstory we were getting and lol that reincarnated hawk priestess is easier to swallow than alien invader. 

 

I find the premise and plot of this show frequently nonsensical, contradictory and confusing but I find the characters amusing so I go along for the ride for the most part.

 

I think this is the first episode I laughed at anything that Kendra has to say. It was nice to see her interacting with Ray and Jax more even though the love triangle angle was a bit forced. How long have they been a team ? A week ? A month?

 

This episode main plot in Star City doesn't do much for me because I don't watch Arrow since season 2 so it was like meh seeing Green Arrow 2.0. Also 60 year olds aren't that agile. . 

But this is the era of the Baby Boom generation that refuses to be seen as getting old thus introducing us to Liam Neeson age 63 as  one of the big current action stars.  Harrison Ford (73) didn't miss a step in The Force Awakens.  Bruce Willis is still churning action movies out (60) Pierce Brosnan (62) per the reviews outshined Owen Wilson in the actions scenes they shared in No Escape.  And last week Dick Van Dyke (90) proved he's a better dancer now than Oliver Queen (or SA) has ever been.    Oliver age 60 just feels plausible these days.  Lol.   

I felt bad for Mick.  Cold basically crapped on him.  Then, cold-cocked him.  I hope that he develops a friendship with Ray.

Well, Snart insists that Mick is brawn in need of a brain.  Ray has a brain...though there has been less than ample proof of just that so far.  ;p

Edited February 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[justjoan]

 

I like that Cold is begrudgingly becoming an anti-hero.  I'm hoping that he never stops lifting wallets.

 

    

It was funny how antsy he was.  He was like fine, you've had your fun, now lets get back to the real world and seemed really flabbergasted that Mick didn't feel just as strongly about their ultimate mission.  He may still be fine with stealing and a well placed murder here and there, but he seems more sold on this mission than even Sara.

 

I think that even beyond the fact that he's apparently been infected by Barry's goodness cooties and wants to save the world (and boy is all of that interesting), he wouldn't have had much interest in that particular future. Mick seemed to think it was a big crime feast, but Snart has said that he's into crime for the challenge and the thrill, and he wouldn't get that there. The challenges available either weren't very challenging- find a building that hasn't been looted yet, walk in, loot it- or weren't the type of challenge that would appeal to him- which big scary guy can hit hardest? Let's find out! Unless he could migrate to a less ravaged city, he'd probably spend all of his time bored, frustrated, annoyed, and ultimately, dead. It was no fit apocalypse for a chessmaster.

 

For all that he sold the whole time travel deal to Mick with, "No computers! No DNA! No weirdly-freezable laser arrays!", I suspect getting around that stuff is a big part of the fun, and he'd miss it after enough trips to Victorian England or Gold Rush-era San Francisco.

[wayne67]

 

But this is the era of the Baby Boom generation that refuses to be seen as getting old thus introducing us to Liam Neeson age 63 as  one of the big current action stars.  Harrison Ford (73) didn't miss a step in The Force Awakens.  Bruce Willis is still churning action movies out (60) Pierce Brosnan (62) per the reviews outshined Owen Wilson in the actions scenes they shared in No Escape.  And last week Dick Van Dyke (90) proved he's a better dancer now than Oliver Queen (or SA) has ever been.    Oliver age 60 just feels plausible these days.  Lol.   

Well, Snart insists that Mick is brawn in need of a brain.  Ray has a brain...though there has been less than ample proof of just that so far.  ;p

 

I think it's hard to think that Oliver at 60? 70? would be so spry if the city has been occupied by crazy criminals for the last 15 years? Also does noone else in the US care that a city is now a lawless wasteland or is the rest of country worse off ? 

This is the problem of the show, the more I think about any of the plots or settings, the more I notice the gaping plot holes and logic fails. What was the point of saving Non Arrow if he'll probably cease to exist the moment they leave since he's a flux baby. UGH TIME TRAVEL.

ETA I laughed when NOT arrow told Oliver that the city thought he was dead. My automatic response was, didn't they learn the first time when he was disappeared for years on an island. Oliver is never dead, he's just somewhere random and nonsensical like... Flash base.

Edited February 29, 2016 by wayne67

[Cekrypton1]

Two things: Did no one think it odd that the heroes outed Oliver's secret ID to Mick and Snart? I mean, they knew who Barry is, but to the best of my knowledge, didn't know that Oliver was Green Arrow. So when they get back to 2016, these two will have that to hold over him.

Point the second: What is keeping Hunter et al from going back in time to a week before the meteor shower changed Savage and killing him in his sleep? Has there been any in-story explanation for not doing the easiest thing possible?

[KirkB]

Point the second: What is keeping Hunter et al from going back in time to a week before the meteor shower changed Savage and killing him in his sleep? Has there been any in-story explanation for not doing the easiest thing possible?

 

 

Because, apparently, Gideon only knows vague details, and the one person who might have been able to provide a date (Carter) is inconveniently dead for now. It's a plot problem any show of this nature is going to have and can't do much about. They know the who and the what and the when but if they really took advantage of it the way they could and should the series would be one episode long.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Legends Of Tomorrow Run Into An Old Friend
You'll NEVER GUESS who it is if you avoid looking at the guest credits!

[Chicago Redshirt]

Two things: Did no one think it odd that the heroes outed Oliver's secret ID to Mick and Snart? I mean, they knew who Barry is, but to the best of my knowledge, didn't know that Oliver was Green Arrow. So when they get back to 2016, these two will have that to hold over him.

Point the second: What is keeping Hunter et al from going back in time to a week before the meteor shower changed Savage and killing him in his sleep? Has there been any in-story explanation for not doing the easiest thing possible?

From my understanding, Snart has not told anyone -- not even his sister -- who Flash really is. But yeah, it's weird that they outed Ollie's secret identity. 

 

There has been nothing on screen to suggest time traveling prior to the meteor shower and killing Savage would present any difficulties. In fact, the show has depicted that Hunter went solo to a time prior to the meteor shower to take a shot at Savage and failed. So as far as I can see, there is no real reason he couldn't have in the first instance smothered baby Savage in his crib when he was solo, or sent someone less incompetent to kill an adult Savage.

[justjoan]

 

Point the second: What is keeping Hunter et al from going back in time to a week before the meteor shower changed Savage and killing him in his sleep? Has there been any in-story explanation for not doing the easiest thing possible?

 

It might just be a question of logistics. They can track Savage through history because he's active, selling nukes, bro'ing around with Stalin and so forth. But if they go back to dispose of baby Hath-Set, how do they find him? One baby in all of Egypt and the provinces? It's not Highlander; he doesn't have a Quickening they can sense. Even as an adult, it would be tricky to locate and kill him until he starts gaining power, visibility and, especially, survival skills (though not sending Rip to do the deed would be a good start). Unless Gideon can track his DNA or something, they sort of have to wait for him to start planting flags, as it were.

Edited February 29, 2016 by justjoan

[Sakura12]

Unless Hath-Set's family was of noble birth, his birth would not have been recorded. They would have no way to find him as a baby. Now finding him before he became immortal and sending Sara to kill him is probably something they should think about. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

But the thing is that they have a time machine and they at least know a point where Vandal Savage/Hath-Set existed before he was immortal. 

 

They could gather all the intel they want on Hath-Set once he becomes a big deal in the Egyptian court, then hop back 10 years before that, 20 years before that, whatever and attacking him when he's a teen or a baby. They can use all their advance science such that it seems like wizardry -- get a sample of his DNA and track him down that way.

 

With a time machine, they literally can hang out in ancient Egypt for 50 years looking for signs of Savage's birth, have each member of the Legends try to kill him, fail, and try, try again as many times as they want. 

 

Considering Vandal is double-plus Hitler squared, maybe you just nuke the entire village he's from from orbit, just to be sure. 

 

Heck you could even probably kill Savage immediately post-meteor shower --- when he's still very inexperienced and unfamiliar with his immortality, basically any one of the crew could grab him and bind him, and then have Kendra finish him off. 

[BkWurm1]

This is the problem of the show, the more I think about any of the plots or settings, the more I notice the gaping plot holes and logic fails

 

Well there's the real problem. Don't think.

 

 

 

Two things: Did no one think it odd that the heroes outed Oliver's secret ID to Mick and Snart? I mean, they knew who Barry is, but to the best of my knowledge, didn't know that Oliver was Green Arrow. So when they get back to 2016, these two will have that to hold over him.

Point the second: What is keeping Hunter et al from going back in time to a week before the meteor shower changed Savage and killing him in his sleep? Has there been any in-story explanation for not doing the easiest thing possible?

 

 

 

I think it pretty much comes down to if they did that, there would be no show. 

 

Still hurts my head less than the BabyMamaDrama stuck between  an " impossible* choice crap they tried to sell on Arrow.

[Cekrypton1]

Well there's the real problem. Don't think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it pretty much comes down to if they did that, there would be no show. 

 

Still hurts my head less than the BabyMamaDrama stuck between  an " impossible* choice crap they tried to sell on Arrow.

I realize that there'd be no show if they could just pop back and kill baby Savage, but it is such a gaping plot-hole, that it is almost criminally negligent that the writers didn't think of it and have some in-show dialog/reason for why this can't happen. They keep bopping around 1970-2046 looking to off Savage and it's all I can do to keep from yelling, "Go back and kill him as a baby!"

[tarotx]

I say enjoy the show if you enjoy it and judge the timey whimy mess after the season is over. They may be able to fix their time issues. Maybe. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by tarotx

[KirkB]

See, I like discussing these issues, and yes I notice the gaping plot holes, but they don't bother me. I enjoy the conversations here. And I enjoy the show, or else I wouldn't keep watching it. If this kind of stuff really got to me I would have given up on sci-fi long ago.

[kismet]

I think the biggest thing with time travel is you have to embrace whatever the rules or premise the show/book/movie is giving you. If you try to solve it or fix every hole you might drive yourself mad. If you expect certain things it might lead to disappointment. In all honesty, for me it almost feels like I need to just buckle up and enjoy the ride. Otherwise my brain can go into overdrive trying to over-analyze every little tidbit.

[FurryFury]

For me, it's more like the level of expectations. I don't really expect (anymore) for LoT to be legitimately good, I expect it be fun and give my fav Sara a lot of ass-kicking screen time. Would I want to be objectively good? Yes. But it's still fun even if it's not, so I'm sticking with it.

[tarotx]

I think the show is good though it does have flaws. I'm enjoying it a lot. If things go the way I expect the timey wimey mess can be side glaced as believable. TPTB have said that the show is like a long movie instead of episodic tv. So I'm waiting to judge that aspect and I'm enjoying the characters and their interactions. For the most part.  But dealing with Savage is the weak point of the series for me. And Hawkgirl but as long as they just have her be there I'm ok. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

The 2040's are always going to be a bad time according to the Arrowverse. And here we meet John Diggle Jr. aka Conner Hawke who is now playing just Conner Hawke with different parents. That's not how genetics work Arrow writers, he shouldn't look the same. 

I liked seeing Sara giving a pep talk to old man Oliver. I was one that really enjoyed them together in Season 2 of Arrow. I still miss them interacting. They don't get nearly enough time together because we gotta spend it on the Oliver and Barry Bromance instead. 

Deathstroke's son was not nearly as intimating as his father, I have no idea how he got control of the entire city. I also don't know how he knew Sara was an assassin or from the LoA. While it's sad to see the Cold and Heat partnership start to fall apart, I love that Snart was becoming a team player. 

Rip once again showing how terrible a leader he is. The rest of them don't even know Sara that well and they were more willing to follow her into a battle that they didn't need to fight than listen to anything he says. Also way to take credit for something he didn't do. Stein was the one that said they need to help Sara.

[Featherhat]

This was one episode I really enjoyed first time around and I like it again now. Yep Star City 2040-something is always a shithole. And previously 2042 Seattle. I remember some comment by MG that they were interested in a dystopian future as depicted in LOT for Arrow but dismissed it and sigh, they took it literally. I remember they wouldn't confirm exactly what happened to Felicity even post episode but it works quite well for current 2040 Felicity as well. 

I really like JDJ as Connor Hawke, both of them. It is weird that he's playing the same character with two different biological parents though. I do wonder what it would have been like if he'd joined LOT full time as was considered? I'm not sure he would have fit very well with S2. I'm glad the actor got more Arrowverse work again though. Connor doesn't feel worthy to be JJ Diggle and current JJ is throwing a temper tantrum because Connor was given more attention so he turned his back on being a Diggle. Right. The Daddy issues and guilt complex make him perfect to be Oliver Queen's success for GA though.

Grant Wilson is about as intimidating as his brother on Arrow, which is to say not much. But crazy really does flow in the Wilson genes though. 

I love me some grumpy, given up, old man Oliver. Is there anyone who doubts that he would certainly mope in the lair for 20 years if things really did go this way? If he wasn't already "dead". The make up department always insists on doing many things with his facial hair to make SA look less attractive. I loved the Oliver and Sara reunion, I was really annoyed it didn't happen in S4 of Arrow or the pilot of LOT. 

Aww, tough times ahead for the Rogues. It's weird to see Mick Rory being so like his S1 self now after current "grumpy asshole big brother Mick". This is setting up Snart's hero arc and Mick's Chronos arc, both of which worked really well for me. 

Rip is not a good leader but I still love him. And want to smack him. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Featherhat

[MarkHB]

Every time I hear Grant Wilson I think, "the guy from Ghost Hunters"?

[Starfish35]

Season 1 isn’t as rough as I remember it being, or nostalgia is coloring my viewpoint.   If you take Savage and Carter out of the picture, a lot of these episodes are actually pretty good.   Barring the Jax/Kendra/Ray triangle, which was cringeworthy and felt like it was just there to give those characters something to do, I really enjoyed most of this episode.  I actually am in the tiny minority that thought Kendra and Ray were pretty cute together (when she wasn’t angsting about Carter), but even so....the awkward triangle was not so good.  It does help develop the psychic link angle between Stein and Jax though.

Leonard is becoming attached to the team, but Mick is fighting it and wants to go back to his old self.  As much as we talk about Rip putting Mick down (and he does - no question), Snart does it too (“I’m the brains - you’re the brawn”).  I do wonder, in retrospect, why Leonard didn’t mention his little sister as a reason he didn’t want to stay.  I think Mick would have understood and respected that; whether he would have chosen to stay without Snart is another question.  

Oliver and Sara have always had great chemistry, even from a non-shipping perspective.  I enjoyed their scenes together.

JJ/Connor.....ok.  On Arrow, Connor Hawke is the son of Ben Turner (Bronze Tiger) and Sandra Hawke.  There’s actually really nothing in this episode that contradicts that.  This Connor could also have been adopted by Diggle and Lyla.  The only thing that would need to be explained is why they would have changed his name.  But pre-Flashpoint, Arrow!JJ didn’t exist, so.....🤷🏻‍♀️