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Justice League (2017)

MarkHB

By MarkHB
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starri
starri

It's like Snyder's lecherousness and Whedon's fake feminism merged into some kind of Male Gaze Voltron.

AimingforYoko
AimingforYoko

Only one thing really bothered me: Hey Bruce, you know what is probably a lot cheaper than buying a bank? PAYING OFF THE DAMN MORTGAGE! You know, so Mrs. Kent wouldn't have had to move out in the

Spartan Girl
Spartan Girl

I don't care as long as we still have Wonder Woman.

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Hiyo

Hiyo

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Alfred mansplaining the proper way to make tea to Wonder Woman.

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Absolutely agree with all your other points, but I thought he was more "British-splaining". Alfred would have reacted like that to anyone.  One does not f' with a British person's tea!

 

I don't have a problem with Alfred explaining to a woman on how to make tea, as mentioned above with the whole British thing...but I do have an issue with him explaining to this particular woman. Didn't the first Wonder Woman movie make it seem like Diana had spent time in the UK after Steve died? If anyone should know how to make a good cuppa, it should be her.

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It's really clear why the people of color and certain characters have their arcs shaved down... The movie is too damn long.

Given how badly the Whedon version was received, one might say they actually dodged a bullet or two.

Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

On 3/23/2021 at 5:59 PM, Racj82 said:

Also, jesus did the line in the first x men movie go over like a led balloon even back then. It's just a bad line no matter how it was said which is how Whedon defends the joke.

I could see, say, Sarah Michelle Gellar pulling the line off. But Storm is not Buffy, and in particular, Halle Berry Storm shouldn't have been treated as a quipster. 

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Racj82

Racj82

That's the play of Joss. I will ruin you if I don't get my way.

Not justifying it but it's a played out and a dated way of running your sets that Joss should have been called out on years ago.  The onset tyrant that has the power because the studios just want success needs to be put to bed for good. Treat people like human beings. It's not too hard. 

 

Racj82

Racj82

I'm so tired of this stupid movie at this point. 

Now, people are falling over themselves or patting themselves on the back to report something or deflect blame. Enough already. You would think this movie is the second coming of Ishtar. 

The movie wasn't even that bad. It for sure wasn't good but enough! I just don't want to hear anything else about it.

The 2017 version was always going to be subpar because of WB and they have people that want to keep deflecting blame. 

Oh Joss screwed up the movie.

YOU GUYS GAVE HIM THAT POWER. They hated the Snyder version. They wanted a lighter movie.  Joss gave them that on top of a dark and gritty movie. Of course it didn't work. 

If nothing happened and Snyder never left, it still would have came out bad because WB themselves would have shredded his vision and not Joss.

All this money and vitriol for this silly movie. 

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shrewd.buddha

shrewd.buddha

On 4/11/2021 at 9:32 AM, Racj82 said:

Oh Joss screwed up the movie.

YOU GUYS GAVE HIM THAT POWER. They hated the Snyder version. They wanted a lighter movie.  Joss gave them that on top of a dark and gritty movie. Of course it didn't work. 

I am torn between disgust and amazement as to how much scapegoat-ing  certain people are attempting to hang on Joss Whedon.  Regardless of whether Whedon is a major douche or not, he agreed to deliver WB's two-hour time limit , tonal changes and the tight release schedule. 
Now it is like that scene from Airplane! where everyone with a grudge is lining up to get their slaps in. 
No one seems to be blaming WB for not holding production back, to allow Snyder to finish the original movie. ( I would like to have seen Snyder's 2-hour version.)
Fun fact: Joss Whedon may be responsible for 20% of ocean plastic pollution and 15% of greenhouse gases. (joke)

 

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HunterHunted

HunterHunted

On 4/8/2021 at 8:09 PM, Trini said:

The hits keep coming for WB; at Vanity Fair, interview with Chris Terrio: '...Chris Terrio Is Super Pissed Off'

'‘Justice League’ Writer Told Warner Bros. to Take His Name Off Whedon Cut: ‘It’s an Act of Vandalism’'

Whedon is an insufferable asshole and abusive bully, but Terrio has written one good movie and Snyder is the ultimate style over substance director. 

On 4/11/2021 at 9:32 AM, Racj82 said:

The 2017 version was always going to be subpar because of WB and they have people that want to keep deflecting blame. 

Oh Joss screwed up the movie.

YOU GUYS GAVE HIM THAT POWER. They hated the Snyder version. They wanted a lighter movie.  Joss gave them that on top of a dark and gritty movie. Of course it didn't work. 

If nothing happened and Snyder never left, it still would have came out bad because WB themselves would have shredded his vision and not Joss.

THIS! The 2017 movie would have always been a disaster even if Snyder had never left because WB wanted something that was under 2 hours, funny, and a lot less self-important. That was pretty much going to be impossible for Snyder to deliver. I don't think he's capable of that. It would have been a mess. Maybe not the strange and strained shambolic mess that the 2017 Snyder/Whedon Frankenstein was, but still a mess.

I can figure out what Whedon was attempting to do. It's clear he thought it was important to see superheroes actually heroing. That's what the "just save one" and the Russian family were all about. These were all attempts to make the audience more invested in the characters and their mission. I don't think it worked, but I definitely miss some of the things he added and removed (ridiculously long Icelandic singing).

While I know what Whedon was trying to do; I can't figure out Terrio and Snyder were trying to do. Snyder seemingly couldn't say no to any of his darling scenes so he left them all in and didn't bother to trim any of them down. It was indulgent and doesn't make for a compelling argument for why Snyder's and Terrio's should be the definitive version going forward. These two made two movies in a row where gods and archetypes battle over the fate of the planet and both times regular humans seem like an afterthought. The first and only unaffiliated humans (not police, soldiers, scientists, or future love interests) that we see anyone save in 2021 Justice League are the school kids Diana saves. Oops, Cyborg does some randoming heroing that I barely remember. None of the "heroes" feel like fully realized beings with real emotions, desires, and fears. Scratch that, I do know what Terrio and Snyder are doing; I just don't like it. I also have every confidence that if Snyder had turned in a 2 hour cut based on his footage, it would have been as ridiculous and cold as Batman v Superman. 

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Racj82

Racj82

10 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Whedon is an insufferable asshole and abusive bully, but Terrio has written one good movie and Snyder is the ultimate style over substance director. 

THIS! The 2017 movie would have always been a disaster even if Snyder had never left because WB wanted something that was under 2 hours, funny, and a lot less self-important. That was pretty much going to be impossible for Snyder to deliver. I don't think he's capable of that. It would have been a mess. Maybe not the strange and strained shambolic mess that the 2017 Snyder/Whedon Frankenstein was, but still a mess.

I can figure out what Whedon was attempting to do. It's clear he thought it was important to see superheroes actually heroing. That's what the "just save one" and the Russian family were all about. These were all attempts to make the audience more invested in the characters and their mission. I don't think it worked, but I definitely miss some of the things he added and removed (ridiculously long Icelandic singing).

While I know what Whedon was trying to do; I can't figure out Terrio and Snyder were trying to do. Snyder seemingly couldn't say no to any of his darling scenes so he left them all in and didn't bother to trim any of them down. It was indulgent and doesn't make for a compelling argument for why Snyder's and Terrio's should be the definitive version going forward. These two made two movies in a row where gods and archetypes battle over the fate of the planet and both times regular humans seem like an afterthought. The first and only unaffiliated humans (not police, soldiers, scientists, or future love interests) that we see anyone save in 2021 Justice League are the school kids Diana saves. Oops, Cyborg does some randoming heroing that I barely remember. None of the "heroes" feel like fully realized beings with real emotions, desires, and fears. Scratch that, I do know what Terrio and Snyder are doing; I just don't like it. I also have every confidence that if Snyder had turned in a 2 hour cut based on his footage, it would have been as ridiculous and cold as Batman v Superman. 

That's something some people forget as well.

There was a lot of criticism about these heroes barely ever being seen saving or helping people outside of their bubble. So, I think there was an effort to make them actually be heroic to the common man. It didn't land but I get what he was going for. 

I will forever miss the lighter moments with Superman in the 2017 version. Him casually saving a house full of people. The laughter with Cyborg after they separated the box.  Flash and Superman racing. 

Snyder's version is superior but there was the good stuff and ideas in there. 

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Racj82

Racj82

8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Sadly lighter moments means we get Flash landing on Wonder Women's breasts which, ha ha. Ha ha.

Oh it's back to this 5 second moment again? OK. 

Some of the stuff worked. I also rather have a 5 second bit that didn't land over stupid crap like watching women sing and sniff aquaman's sweater.

Not everything will work. Tis the life of a creator.

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Guest

Guest

3 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Yes, I get it.  There were multiple jokes that didn't land. It's almost as if it was a movie. A movie has jokes that don't work. It's wild.

I would say there is a difference between a joke that didn’t land and a sexist scene that resulted in Gal Gadot’s career being threatened. That one scene has become representative of Whedon’s bad behavior and will probably be brought up as long as anyone is talking about him. 

Racj82

Racj82

On 4/16/2021 at 1:26 AM, Dani said:

I would say there is a difference between a joke that didn’t land and a sexist scene that resulted in Gal Gadot’s career being threatened. That one scene has become representative of Whedon’s bad behavior and will probably be brought up as long as anyone is talking about him. 

And that wasn't the conversation. We were talking about how "cringe" it was.

But, I'm just tired of all this. 

Hopefully, there will be something else people can analyze to death soon.

Guest

Guest

2 hours ago, Racj82 said:

And that wasn't the conversation. We were talking about how "cringe" it was.

For me personally, the sexist aspect is why it is “cringe” moment. It all depends on your perspective. For some it is just a failed 5 second moment. For others it means a lot more than that. It’s one more time when a female character gets put in an awkward sexual position for a joke. It is magnified because it was done to Wonder Woman who should be all about female empowerment and because it was released just after her movie. It epitomizes the difference between the male and female gaze which has become a real battle ground in pop culture generally and particularly in super hero movies. 

Racj82

Racj82

(edited)
18 hours ago, Dani said:

For me personally, the sexist aspect is why it is “cringe” moment. It all depends on your perspective. For some it is just a failed 5 second moment. For others it means a lot more than that. It’s one more time when a female character gets put in an awkward sexual position for a joke. It is magnified because it was done to Wonder Woman who should be all about female empowerment and because it was released just after her movie. It epitomizes the difference between the male and female gaze which has become a real battle ground in pop culture generally and particularly in super hero movies. 

There is nothing to debate here. You and others feel the way you feel. Not saying it's not justified. It's all been covered and analyzed every way a movie, a line, a scene can be analyzed. I'm just tired of the whole ordeal. But, it is what it is. 

I'm also of the mind that almost everything is taken too seriously these days but I also suffer from a severe lack getting worked up about most things others do.

These are just movies to me. No character should be above having a little fun with. 

Joss tried to dig into his bag of tricks for a comedy beat. It did not work.

DC and a huge chunk of the fan base is just too self serious to me. You can say that about most Fandom out there but damn.

There are tons of lines and scenes actors object to.This is isn't new. I don't really care about that. 

Joss tried to throw his weight around because he knew he had the backing of the studio. He also had no time to deal with what we felt like were trivial concerns. Obviously,  they are not trivial. It's good that Gal is protective of her character. 

What Joss did isn't new at all but some people are pretending like it is. He's just another example of a creator thinking he's bulletproof, letting power go to his head and being protected.

I'm just glad that these attitudes are being called out so changes can be made.

 

 

Edited by Racj82
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MarkHB

MarkHB

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There's no way a Zack Snyder Cut theatrical release in 2017 would have been 4 hours; most of the last half-hour (the Knightmare scene, the Martian Manhunter sequence) hadn't even been filmed at the time. I think Zack was going to fight for a 2:40 runtime based on some of his recent comments, and my guess is that the 4 hours came from HBO Max originally wanting to do 4 1-hour episodes until the cast's agents came knocking for more money. 

So far as Josstice League goes, I heard something on a podcast I really like.  Whedon's best and quietest gig in Hollywood is as a script doctor, and someone recently said that the theatrical JL felt like he was script-doctoring in the middle of making the movie.

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dwmarch

dwmarch

On 4/19/2021 at 11:42 AM, MarkHB said:

Whedon's best and quietest gig in Hollywood is as a script doctor, and someone recently said that the theatrical JL felt like he was script-doctoring in the middle of making the movie.

I think that's exactly what he was doing and I think that's why he was brought in. He's a great director under pressure. Fox didn't like the first episode of Firefly. He had to shoot a second pilot over a weekend. We get "The Train Job" from it. He shot an extra episode of Dollhouse using what was basically spare change he found under the couch cushions and we got "Epitaph One" out of that. When it comes to time and budget constraints, Joss Whedon can produce. And write. And direct. Snyder is much more indulgent as this movie shows in great detail.

I feel bad for Joss because what has been happening in the media is that his worst moments of the past thirty years have all been brought to light basically simultaneously. Norman Reedus once said (regarding notoriously temperamental director Troy Duffy of Boondock Saints fame) that if you have enough footage of Santa Claus you can edit it to make him look like an asshole. If someone made a highlight reel of the worst moments of my life over the past thirty years people wouldn't think very highly of me either. Joss certainly has some flaws and I'm sure he'd love to do a redemption arc. But there are people out there talking about being in therapy for the past twenty years because of how he wronged them. So he's probably maintaining his silence on the strict advice of his lawyer, who knows that he can be held liable for those therapy bills if he admits to any of it. But he's got to know that the guy who makes a woman cry twice in a meeting and then goes around laughing about it is the guy that is cheerfully killed by the hero in any Joss Whedon production.

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Spartan Girl

Spartan Girl

(edited)
On 4/24/2021 at 2:14 AM, dwmarch said:

But he's got to know that the guy who makes a woman cry twice in a meeting and then goes around laughing about it is the guy that is cheerfully killed by the hero in any Joss Whedon production.

I don’t know, there are plenty of Whedon male characters that treat women (or anyone in general) like shit and are still labeled heroes, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Justice League Star Gal Gadot Confirms Joss Whedon Threatened to Make Her Career Miserable.

And this is why I don’t feel sorry for Whedon at all.  He’s been an asshole for years, the only things that’s changed is that more people see it now. The fact that all his “bad moments” have been exposed at the same time is just plain old karma.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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Guest

Guest

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And this is why I don’t feel sorry for Whedon at all.  He’s been an asshole for years, the only things that’s changed is that more people see it now. The fact that all his “bad moments” have been exposed at the same time is just plain old karma.

Very true and this isn’t all his bad moments being exposed at the same time. This is him being exposed for what he has done to those with some degree of power and influence in his industry. If he threatens the career of Gal Gadot the stunt double who ultimately did the boob face plant scene probably had it a lot worse and she didn’t have the power to stand her ground. If he pressured Charisma Carpenters career because she got pregnant how did he react to the random assistant who needed maternity leave. Those are the stories we may never here because they have zero real protection in the industry. 

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