S06.E07: Season 6, Episode 7

[lucindabelle]

I had the feeling mary and Patrick hasnt spent a lot of time together.

[Clanstarling]

What? Mary mourned Matthew most of Season 4.

Matthew was her husband - who became the heir to Downton when her fiancé died (she and Matthew met after her fiance's death).

Edited February 20, 2016 by clanstarling

[j5cochran]

... Mary reminds me of the fictional character (who/what/when??) who required her suitors to always ask permission (prego) before kissing and likely would expect that same after marriage... the character was horrified to be considered that "cold" and intimidating that she changed her ways to become more approachable....

 

In the 1964 film Father Goose, Lesley Caron's character Catherine Freneau is the stuffy daughter of an ambassador, hiding from the Japanese on a south Pacific island with Cary Grant and seven schoolgirls during WWII (just go with the idea -- it's a great film!). During a drunken conversation, she admits that she once dated the son of the Italian ambassador, the son who always asked "permesso" before kissing her.  Is that the character you remember?

[AndySmith]

That...doesn't sound like Mary at all. Or any of the Crawley kids.

[SusanSunflower]

But yes, that is who I was thinking of ... Mary would like to be swept up in love, passion, lust, etc. as she experienced with Pamuk ... and then -- finally after all hurdles had been crossed -- Matthew ... she lives her life at-arms'-length  and I think would like to experience more immediacy, spontaneity and warmth in life.  Does she perhaps tell herself, she's "forgotten how"?

 

Tony didn't "light her fire"  -- it wasn't awful but she looked as if she wished they at least had rooms on separate floors so he could go back to his Henry is something of a contender (in a regressive way) because -- as far as I can tell -- She does want him, but as we keep being reminded he is much too far below her for her even consider marriage ... and now he's ruined everything by declaring his love...

 

It's all terribly muddled and unlikely and reads at this point like a Gillingham replay. No one is going to be happy this time if Mary "gives in" rather than remain alone .... ugh.... or because she doesn't want to be home alone with the parents if/when Edith and Bertie move on with their lives.  Dreadful but common enough (vulgar even) reason to get married... 

Edited February 20, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

I had the feeling mary and Patrick hasnt spent a lot of time together.

 

Patrick was Mary's cousin and they knew one another from the childhood on. All others were very fond of Patrick. Even if Mary didn't love Patrick, her cold behavior when he died so young and so horribly was odd - and she didn't even bother to pretend otherwise.

[Andorra]

I don't find Mary's cold behavior after Patrick's death odd at all. It is a mixture of relief that she doesn't have to marry him after all, annoyance that he dared to die and destroy her future and embarrassment about the fact that she feels this way. I think she was fond of him as a cousin and it had always been made clear to her, that she was going to marry him, but she probably wasn't really keen on the thought. She wanted to become Countess and she wanted Downton and Patrick was her safe way to get it, but she was a young girl of 21 when the show started and we see later with Pamuk, that she has never really experienced passion or love and is overwhelmed by it when it happens. Mary has been brought up to suppress feelings and be rational and ladylike, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have those feelings. Patrick's death is the first crack in the facade of a destined future. The first moment she realizes it won't all go as smooth as she was told it would. 

[AndySmith]

I always wondered, is the oldest daughter somehow charged with keeping the family line going if there are no sons? I mean, is she the one who is expected to marry the future heir? I know with sons its usually the oldest, but not sure what is done in the case of only having daughters. I was curious if that was expected of Mary anyway or if that was just something the family placed on her.

Edited February 20, 2016 by AndySmith

[Roseanna]

I don't find Mary's cold behavior after Patrick's death odd at all. It is a mixture of relief that she doesn't have to marry him after all, annoyance that he dared to die and destroy her future and embarrassment about the fact that she feels this way. I think she was fond of him as a cousin and it had always been made clear to her, that she was going to marry him, but she probably wasn't really keen on the thought. She wanted to become Countess and she wanted Downton and Patrick was her safe way to get it, but she was a young girl of 21 when the show started and we see later with Pamuk, that she has never really experienced passion or love and is overwhelmed by it when it happens. Mary has been brought up to suppress feelings and be rational and ladylike, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have those feelings. Patrick's death is the first crack in the facade of a destined future. The first moment she realizes it won't all go as smooth as she was told it would. 

 

Well, it wasn't so much Mary's feelings - although it was realieving that what she thought was before all herself - that she didn't bother to conceal them and behave "properly" that  was odd in the context of the time. As Jessica Fellowes says in her book, Mary didn't try to please people if she didn't want to. That can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances, but Robert's word that someday Mary's callous words are taken seriously, are a prediction and a warning: if one likes to present a certain picture of oneself, one can't blame others for taking it seriously. 

 

In any case, Mary isn't presented in the positive light at that in S1 but that of course makes her interesting. Gradually one begins to like her, especially after the Pamuk incident when she, being humiliated and vulnerable, speaks the first time openly with Matthew about the conditions of the aristocratic women. And it proves good of Matthew that he who had been openly humiliated by her, goes at onvce to console her knowing her to be depressed even if not knowing the real reason of it.   

Edited February 20, 2016 by Roseanna

[rejnel]

Anyone else hoping Thomas Barrow is secretly Miss Cassandra Jones?

[TheGreenKnight]

As Jessica Fellowes says in her book, Mary didn't try to please people if she didn't want to. That can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances, but Robert's word that someday Mary's callous words are taken seriously, are a prediction and a warning: if one likes to present a certain picture of oneself, one can't blame others for taking it seriously. 

In that respect, Mary is like Thomas to me. The family views her the way she's presented herself and if the few moments she may be attempting to change (asking about Bertie at breakfast, for example) aren't noticed, what does she expect? You can't be nasty for years and expect people to think the best of you. Same with the downstairs unable to see Thomas's random attempts to build bridges for what they are.

 

Of course, I can feel more sympathy for Thomas than I do for Mary, considering she has been privileged in nearly every way. At least Thomas's vile behavior can be somewhat explained by his circumstance--kill or be killed is probably a lesson he learned very early.

[Pallas]

Constantinople gave me a yearning desire for a "Kind Hearts and Coronets," style spin off where Henry comically dispenses with one of the 40 each episode.  Thomas could be his combination butler and partner in crime.

 

Tom could be his combination mechanic and partner in crime, in order to secure Henry for Mary (for which purpose, we now understand, Tom abandoned America for Downton). Maybe Charlie was one of the Shrewsbury heirs...

 

Even so, Mary and Henry's best and first authentic conversation was after the crash. It seemed to me the characters finally connected because the actors at last had some good writing to rouse them. Challenging Henry's despair, Mary was what Mary is: bracing; spirited. Prior to that...Mary and Henry the coy, brittle flirts? She sallies, he rejoins, she ripostes -- each line crumbled like a dry leaf in a fist.

[Macbeth]

This is the first episode that I remember seeing cigarettes making an appearance.  Talbot did  manage to make one drag on the cigarette.  The magazine editor, however, just waived it around without taking a puff.  

 

So Daisy's initial reason for going to school was motivated to learn math to help Mr. Mason with the figures, but  Mr. Mason expects Andy to be the one to help him??  Whatever.

[izabella]

Wasn't O'Brien always smoking cigarettes while scheming with Thomas?  I could be imagining that.

[AndySmith]

Thomas was smoking as well.

 

[Macbeth]

You are right - I completely forgot about O'Brien and Thomas. I think I was fascinated by the lack of actual smoking by the editor and Henry (one puff is not smoking).

 

I guess in the world of Downton Abbey smoking is no longer something that only the villains do.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Macbeth

[jschoolgirl]

Tom could be his combination mechanic and partner in crime, in order to secure Henry for Mary (for which purpose, we now understand, Tom abandoned America for Downton). Maybe Charlie was one of the Shrewsbury heirs...

 

Even so, Mary and Henry's best and first authentic conversation was after the crash. It seemed to me the characters finally connected because the actors at last had some good writing to rouse them. Challenging Henry's despair, Mary was what Mary is: bracing; spirited. Prior to that...Mary and Henry the coy, brittle flirts? She sallies, he rejoins, she ripostes -- each line crumbled like a dry leaf in a fist.

The Shrewsbury heirs? Are they the men who'd have to drop dead to get Henry a title?

[AndySmith]

Yeah, I think that's what Pallas was hinting at...Charlie was Tom and Henry's first victim ;)

Edited February 21, 2016 by AndySmith

[skyways]

Talbot did  manage to make one drag on the cigarette.  The magazine editor, however, just waived it around without taking a puff.

 

I didn't quite like seeing that on a supposed leading man. Although don't ask me why Matthew and Robert smoking cigars after dinner somehow 'looks' different.

[Pallas]

"40 strong men"  are said to stand between Henry Talbot and the Shrewsbury title (an Earldom, it seems: there was a Charles Talbot, 11th Earl of Shrewsbury, who was appointed Duke of Shrewsbury by William of Orange, but he died without heirs and the grander title died with him; the Earldom passed to his cousin Gilbert Talbot.)

 

Ha!  There's a Shrewsbury curse, that just might be germane -- Tom, quick: fetch the clippers!

[Athena]

I guess in the world of Downton Abbey smoking is no longer something that only the villains do.

 

Smoking is less of a trope in British shows in general. As with most of the Western world, rates of smoking have declined, but you still see  fictional characters smoking on British TV or shows. It's less of an indicator of their villainy.

 

In the world of DA, there does seem less of it overall. Then again, smoking is not something the Ladies would do. Gentlemen like Lord Grantham smoked cigars more.

 

I do think Fellowes fell into the whole "Smoking = Ebil" a bit more than some UK showrunners.

[Constantinople]

More named characters with speaking roles have now died in car accidents -- Matthew, Charlie Rogers -- than were killed by enemy fire in WWI (William) or the Influenza epidemic (Lavinia Swire). 

 

I'm not including the unnamed medic who was shot in front of Thomas.

[helenamonster]

Does Green count too? He was hit by a bus, not a car, but still a vehicle that is driven on a road.

[Camera One]

I liked this episode, since there was finally some payoff.  

It was nice to see Mr. Moseley get a happy moment, and a promising future doing something he enjoys.  Daisy was actually likeable this episode as well.  It was also nice seeing Mrs. Patmore and her new bed and breakfast... I wish they had left the weirdo taking notes outside for the next episode.  I would love to try one of her breakfasts.  The picnic was nice, though a little awkward with the reveal that Andy couldn't read, but good that's out now.  Carson got what he deserved in the kitchen, so that was pretty funny.  

I still couldn't care less about Mary and Talbot.  I would be surprised if Mary and Tom aren't endgame at this point.  He's around her every moment.  It was nice seeing Edith showing some concern for Mary, and running after her, though no words were said.  I wish Edith would be honest with Bertie.  

Violet and Merton's future daughter-in-law was awesome.  I find it strange that Violet would still be having tea with Isobel.  I also will repeat how bad the whole hospital subplot was, and I'm glad it's over now.

[caligirl50]

On May 16, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Camera One said:

I liked this episode, since there was finally some payoff.  

It was nice to see Mr. Moseley get a happy moment, and a promising future doing something he enjoys.  Daisy was actually likeable this episode as well.  It was also nice seeing Mrs. Patmore and her new bed and breakfast... I wish they had left the weirdo taking notes outside for the next episode.  I would love to try one of her breakfasts.  The picnic was nice, though a little awkward with the reveal that Andy couldn't read, but good that's out now.  Carson got what he deserved in the kitchen, so that was pretty funny.  

I still couldn't care less about Mary and Talbot.  I would be surprised if Mary and Tom aren't endgame at this point.  He's around her every moment.  It was nice seeing Edith showing some concern for Mary, and running after her, though no words were said.  I wish Edith would be honest with Bertie.  

Violet and Merton's future daughter-in-law was awesome.  I find it strange that Violet would still be having tea with Isobel.  I also will repeat how bad the whole hospital subplot was, and I'm glad it's over now.

Can we assume you are just watching this season now?

[Camera One]

Yes, I am.

[caligirl50]

Enjoy!!!!

[TaurusRose]

On 11/2/2015 at 11:54 AM, Gladrags said:

I felt bad for Henry when Mary dumped him over the phone. He looked awful damn sexy, too ...  in the dark, with his drink. 

Okay, maybe it's me, but I find nothing sexy or attractive about this man.  All of his awkward beanpole looks were exposed in his last two sad sack scenes.  The puppy, on the other hand, was awesome.

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 11:12 PM, taurusrose said:

Okay, maybe it's me, but I find nothing sexy or attractive about this man.  All of his awkward beanpole looks were exposed in his last two sad sack scenes. 

The actor was sexy in Good wife, so it must be the script and/or chemistry with Dockery that failed.

[AndySmith]

I dunno, I thought he had good chemistry with Dockery. This show was one of the few times I've actually found the actor sexy.

[SusanSunflower]

I was a Julian Overdon shipper but I like Matthew Goode a lot and thought he was a good final marriage choice for Mary ... however, the production did him (and Mary) no favors.  Matthew looked tiny, even boyish next to the much more bulky Downton Men (all of them but Tom most noticeably). He really needed his costumes bulked up. (Reminding me of KKnightley in P&P who wore light cotton shifts while everyone female else wore elaborately tailored (and much warmer looking) gowns -- she looked childlike and cold throughout most of that movie).  They (Julian Fellowes) also wrote him peevish, unhappy, even sullen and uncertain which did not help.  His failure to appreciably bond with the Mary's son was icy. Finally, I noticed (puzzling earlier this lack of chemistry) that many of their scenes were shot from a distance, across a room, very few intimate tete a tetes.  Dockery was grieving in real life (I think) and so there may have been "considerations" about requiring too much of her in the way of physically romantic scenes, but when I rewatched more carefully,  I found that there was Mary "business" (giddy, uncertainty) that was "supposed" to telegraph that she was "mad about the boy" that simply didn't telegraph well. Gotta go check IMDB and see what he's up to. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 6:24 AM, SusanSunflower said:

I was a Julian Overdon shipper but I like Matthew Goode a lot and thought he was a good final marriage choice for Mary ... however, the production did him (and Mary) no favors.  Matthew looked tiny, even boyish next to the much more bulky Downton Men (all of them but Tom most noticeably). He really needed his costumes bulked up. (Reminding me of KKnightley in P&P who wore light cotton shifts while everyone female else wore elaborately tailored (and much warmer looking) gowns -- she looked childlike and cold throughout most of that movie).  They (Julian Fellowes) also wrote him peevish, unhappy, even sullen and uncertain which did not help.  His failure to appreciably bond with the Mary's son was icy. Finally, I noticed (puzzling earlier this lack of chemistry) that many of their scenes were shot from a distance, across a room, very few intimate tete a tetes.  Dockery was grieving in real life (I think) and so there may have been "considerations" about requiring too much of her in the way of physically romantic scenes, but when I rewatched more carefully,  I found that there was Mary "business" (giddy, uncertainty) that was "supposed" to telegraph that she was "mad about the boy" that simply didn't telegraph well. Gotta go check IMDB and see what he's up to. 

I think that the fault was mostly Fellowes'. He gave actors no material from which they could create a great romance. 

Probably he tried impossible: to find Mary a new husband whom the audience would have like as much as Matthew.