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ShadowDenizen

General Discussion: You Exist Here

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With apologies to the TWOP forums for stealing the brilliant subheader.  :)

I've just turned my friend on to DeepSpace Nine, so I've been doing a rewatch with him from the beginning.

It's funny how many threads they began paving right in the first season that pay off WAY down the line. (The whole Changeling/Founders arc really begins right in the pilot, and slowly gather steam over the seasons.)

And while I cringe knowing what's coming (Run Along Home, anyone?), it's actually more enjoyable to watch with a DS9 newbie, who doesn't know what's coming, and what episodes are great and what episodes bite the big one.

It's also interesting how, in my memory, I remember Kai Opaka playing a MUCH bigger role than she actually did. (She was only in 2-3 Episodes, I believe?)

It's also neat to see who had their characters pegged right from the pilot ownward (Quark), and who had to grow into their roles over the seasons.

Knowing what's coming, it does feel weird to watch the show and NOT think/hear about the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar! (And since my friend doesn't know abut that whole storyline, I'm doing my best not to spoil him,)

Anyone interested in doing a series rewatch? (If we get enough interest, we may even be able to set up a calendar and spin it into a seperate discussion thread.

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The great were the last two episodes Duet is arguably among the greatest single Star Trek hour's and In The Hands Of The Prophets was a great season finale leading into the Circle trilogy which kicked off the second season.

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Is the all-caps a joke I'm not remembering, it has been a while.

Not that I know of! (I accidentally had "Caps Lock" on, and I couldn't edit the title afterwards. Feel free to normalize the casing, if you like!!)

The great were the last two episodes Duet is arguably among the greatest single Star Trek hour's and In The Hands Of The Prophets was a great season finale leading into the Circle trilogy which kicked off the second season.

Yes, Duet is (arguably) the best hour of the first season. And "Move Along Home" is arguably the worst hour of the entire series. (Though the episode where people dreams come to life is also pretty terrible.)

I was disappointed that the "Circle" storyline didn't have a bigger payoff, but I'll talk about that when I start my S2 rewatch later.

It's also interesting that the Rom we see in the early episodes of S1 is a COMPLETELY different version of the lovable Rom we see in later seasons.

Edited by ShadowDenizen

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You know what else is different about season 1? Garak only pops up for one episode. He's integral later on, but only one episode here and not mentioned again.

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The same can be said of MANY characters, which is part of what I liked about Season 1.; totally setting the stage for later events/storylines.  Gul Dukat, Kai Winn, and Garak all show up in small doses in Season 1!  (Even Vedek Boring [errr.. Bariel]) shows late in Season 1, if I recall correctly!!)

IMO, Kai (or Vedek, at this point) Winn to this day remains one of THE BEST "Love to Hate Them" characters on any incarnation of Trek. What Louise Fletcher did with that character is utterly sublime and masterful.

Edited by ShadowDenizen
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One thing my husband and I always roll our eyes about was the episode where the refugee asks The Computer, "Where are the weapons?" And the blasted thing tells this Joe Blow alien where the weapons on this powder-keg space station !  No security clearance or name for okay, just 'show me the weapons, please." "Yes, this way."  ::shakes head in remembrance::

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Yes, there were alot of head-shaking moments in Season 1.

Like the Tosk episode. And any early Jadzia-centric episodes. Just terrible.

But, the good certainly outweighs the bad, even in Season 1.

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Yes, there were alot of head-shaking moments in Season 1.

Like the Tosk episode. And any early Jadzia-centric episodes. Just terrible.

But, the good certainly outweighs the bad, even in Season 1.

In my opinion there are a few seasons in the franchise where the bad outnumbered the good but as a franchise they had built of enough good will with the multiple TNG seasons  for me to come back every week when I was rewarded with an episode like Duet. I made it through the entre run of Miami Vice just waiting for a repeat of a great first year for an example

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Yes, Duet is (arguably) the best hour of the first season. And "Move Along Home" is arguably the worst hour of the entire series. (Though the episode where people dreams come to life is also pretty terrible.)

I don't know, I think "Profit and Lace" has the distinction of being the worst episode of the entire series. But I liked "Move along Home." Mostly because I liked the concept. It was kind of Tron-like in that real people were playing a game that got out of control. You also got to see early aspects of personalities that were more fully developed later. Like Kira being so pissed off about the frivolity of it, and Dax just playing right along in the spirit of the game. Also, any time Quark is forced to acknowledge he does value something over money (people lives, in this case) isn't a total waste.

In general, though, I just found the first season pretty boring. The show was still trying to find its feet.

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Anyone interested in doing a series rewatch? (If we get enough interest, we may even be able to set up a calendar and spin it into a seperate discussion thread.

 

ShadowDenizen, yeah I would be up to re-watching the series. I loved the show when it actually aired but bailed when Worf was brought on board, season 4 I think. I think it was because at the time, I thought that they were going to "Next Generation" the series and remove all of the conflict between the main characters, which I loved. I always considered DS9 the "dark' trek and loved the conflict. I did watch some later episodes and later decided Worf was actually a good addition.

I do like Next Generation though, but DS9 is far superior to me.

I have the DVDs for the entire series, so can easily do a rewatch!

The interesting thing about the show is that so many episodes relied on previous episodes/seasons that set the story, unlike the others stand alone Treks. Critics have said this is why the show didn't do as well during its initial airing, because of the long story arcs.

Edited by HalcyonDays

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I think "Profit and Lace" has the distinction of being the worst episode of the entire series

Is that the "Cross-Dressing Quark" episode? Ok, then I stand corrected. 

But "Move Along Home" is still egregiously bad. The Wadi (Which we NEVER see again!) as a race were pretty terrible, there was never any genuine suspense or feeling of "intent to harm", most of the main character were still in the process of being fleshed out and thus were pretty shrill and disgreeable, and the scene at the end seemed to take FOREVER. (And the rocks were CLEARLY styrofoam; IIRC, Dax gets hit by one, and can't even PRETEND to be stunned [though that may be Terry Farrel's acting more than the special effects.)  And Bashir plummets to his "Death", and there's not even a LINE about how surprised everyone is about how he just re-appears after the "game" is over.

But Avery Brooks trying to sing the stupid hopscotch rhyme was worth the price of admission for the episode all by itself!! 

Also, the episdoe where Julian gets possessed was pretty terrible, too. (Siddig El Faddil seems to think that "whispering= menacing" most of the time in the episode.) Andt hey totally gave away the "Surprise" in the episoe; when the "Mysterious Assailant" pushes the Klingon off the 2nd floor of the bar, you can TOTALLY see that it is Bashir, and this is SCENES before the big reveal!!

I'm glad to get some discussion going!

Lets think about a schedule for the rewatch; how about (starting from the beginning) if we ask people to watch the Pilot & 1st episode ("The Emissary" and Past Prologue.") by the end of next week (04-18-14)?  Or ist hat too soon, and we should give 2 weeks so we can get more people participating?

 Then we can open threads for the individual episodes for discussion and thoughts. (In keeping with the theme of this new site, I think [as Chip suggested], that referring to previous events/episodes is OK, but we'll try to keep "Spoiler" free in the discussion threads. (I'd like this rewatch to be a great "jumping-on" point for new fans, as DS9 is still the most watchable AND relevant (IMO) of the Trek series.)

Edited by ShadowDenizen

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Is that the "Cross-Dressing Quark" episode? Ok, then I stand corrected.

Not just cross-dressing. They actually turned him into a fe-male!

And the rocks were CLEARLY styrofoam

Sure. That's the case with pretty much all of Star Trek, though. Also reminds me of the effect in the TNG episode where Worf gets his spine broken by a large barrel falling on him, except you can tell the barrel has no weight because it bounces off the floor.

But Avery Brooks trying to sing the stupid hopscotch rhyme was worth the price of admission for the episode all by itself!!

Heh, true. I also got a chuckle out of Kira being so downright angry when she was singing it. I like that song. But then, I quite like a lot of silly children's songs and sometimes find myself humming, "Allamaraine, count to four…." Not trying to say the episode is good objectively, but I don't hate it.

I did dislike that possessed Bashir one a lot. But mostly, I disliked Bashir, throughout the entire series, and only found him tolerable when Garak was around being awesome. Bashir also saddled us with two of my least favorite plots: Section 31 and Vik's Vegas.

Edited by Gilmel

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Vik's Vegas

UGH, this show.
Yes, I remember hate, hate, HATING that whole shtick.

But I"ll post about that when I get around to it in the rewatch.(MAybe my opinion will have softened, though I tend to doubt it.)

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Vik's Vegas

 

UGH, this show.

Yes, I remember hate, hate, HATING that whole shtick.

But I"ll post about that when I get around to it in the rewatch.(MAybe my opinion will have softened, though I tend to doubt it.)

 

I loved Vic Fontaine and James Darren but whatever.

 

Yep, Duet was definitely the best episode of season 1 and one of the best episodes of the series. Harris Yulen was fantastic as Marittza and Nana was great too.  I love TNG but it never had an episode this powerful in it's first season. It showed the potential of what the show could be.

Edited by VCRTracking

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I didn't hate Vic, he was okay. I loved how he helped Nog and Odo. But I remember feeling like he isn't as interesting as the doctor on Voyager. I think  it was kind of weird that he was self aware but did not want to be anything more. Like he would talk about his "life" as if it was real but he also knew that it wasn't. Such as the whole Vegas episode, I feel like until they fixed the problem they could transfer him to another program.  I guess that is what makes him different then the doctor because the doctor is a crew member not just a program.

 

P.s I just realized this is the season 1 thread, there probably is a better place for my post and ones that I was replying too. So feel free to move.

Edited by blueray

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just a couple of thoughts. Those Klingons sure do like to break into song at every chance! 

And I had never watched more than an episode here and there of this series, started watching a few months ago on H&I. I had no clue that they killed off Jadzia. She wasn't my favorite character, but was growing on me. I liked her after the wedding episode, so I was shocked when she died. 

this is a change of subject, I know some people don't care for the Vic Fontaine character and episodes, but I like them. I've always had a thing for Moondoggie and I like crooners.

Edited by friendperidot · Reason: because it's been a few days and a few episodes

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I don't know if this is appropriate, but just in case...

Ira Behr is crowd-funding a DS9 retrospective documentary.

At the $2000 donation level, Nana Visitor throws you a dinner party.  My husband and I saved a bunch of money over four years to take very belated honeymoon/celebration of our graduations from grad/medical school, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted in shifting some of that money over.

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2 hours ago, starri said:

I don't know if this is appropriate, but just in case...

Ira Behr is crowd-funding a DS9 retrospective documentary.

At the $2000 donation level, Nana Visitor throws you a dinner party.  My husband and I saved a bunch of money over four years to take very belated honeymoon/celebration of our graduations from grad/medical school, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted in shifting some of that money over.

If he's as into DS9 as you are, I seriously doubt he'd blame you.

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10 hours ago, starri said:

At the $2000 donation level, Nana Visitor throws you a dinner party.

If I HAD $2000 to burn, I would be so tempted! (Actually, it would have to be more like $3000, since I'd have to get there (from the UK) and stay somewhere as well).

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If $2000 for dinner with Nana is too rich for your blood, you can now pay $200 to have Terry Farrell bake you cookies.

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Watched the series finale last night on H&I, I guess I got more caught up in this show than I thought, my eyes were leaking. I am in a minority, maybe of just one person, but I think my favorite part of DS9 is James Darren as Vic Fontaine. I loved him, but I always had a thing for Moondoggie.

And at the moment, my almost grown pit bull puppy is singing the song of his people, the mutt puppy is singing harmony and it sounds a lot like Klingon opera.

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2 hours ago, friendperidot said:

I am in a minority, maybe of just one person, but I think my favorite part of DS9 is James Darren as Vic Fontaine. I loved him, but I always had a thing for Moondoggie..

I'll join you at that table.  James Darren turned out to be quite the silver fox as Vic, and Vic's wry, snarky take on the doings of the beings around him from his 1962 perspective was one of my favorite things about the character.  I so often wished that he could have borrowed the Voyager Doctor's portable holo-emitter so that he could have gone on some away missions with the rest of the crew.

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 I didn't hate Vic like a lot of fans, but I didn't care for the "he's not your average hologram" angle.  But that was influenced at least in part by all the sentient hologram nonsense on Voyager.  Holographic characters are nothing more than an extension of the main computer.  It would have been one thing if they left at the Doctor developing sentience because his program had been running so long (even though it was largely a retread of Data's arc).   But it got to the point where every damn hologram they ran into was sentient.   Data was a unique piece of technology no one was able to recreate and he still had to fight to be declared a person.  By the time of Voyager, apparently anyone can just order up a holocharacter and declare them a person.  After the first couple of seasons, DS9 was largely able to avoid the more tropish Trek plots like holodecks gone awry and transporter accidents.  Making Vic a sentient hologram just seemed liked a misstep.  But at least he didn't join the Doctor's Photons Be Free movement.  

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Maverick, I don't really give a lot of thought to too much of this. I just like the Vic character and it is mostly because of James Darren. I didn't watch a lot of Next Generation and it's been over 20 years since I watched it at all, I know it's been that long because it was my ex husband that watched the show and he's been dead over 20 years. But from the little I remember, I thought Data was more of a robot like being rather than a hologram. I'm not too crazy about all the holograms are human too stuff on Voyager and the doctor is probably my least favorite character. I've only been watching Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise for a few months on H&I, never watched them before. The Doctor on Enterprise is one of my favorite characters on all the shows. Different strokes for different folks.

And, legaleagle, a couple of weeks ago, there was an episode where Sisko, Nog, Beshear, and others were on a mission to assist an outpost, Nog was badly hurt, lost his leg and Vic was there singing I'll Be Seeing You. I wasn't paying a lot of attention, but I seem to remember he was interacting with Nog, so much so that the next episode Nog moved into the holosuite.

Edited by friendperidot

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I always figured the idea of intelligent holograms came from the TNG episode where LaForge accidentally created a sentient version of Moriarty. I figured that Starfleet scientists got together and decided that if you could create a self-aware hologram accidentally, they should try making one on purpose, which eventually lead to the EMH and Vic Fontaine.

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Count me in as another that liked Vic Fontaine. I'm almost finished my re-watch, it's slow because season 7 just drags for me or more to the point I resented and I guess still resent so much Ezri. 

friendperidot the episode you mentioned when Nog got hurt was The Siege of AR-558,  Vic wasn't there but Julian had a recording that helped keep Nog calm after losing his leg.  While It's Only a Paper Moon is one of my favorite Vic episodes.

I guess you suspend so much disbelief with sci-fi shows that a hologram that knew he was a hologram just didn't bother me as much as it did others.

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I heard how good this show was and finally decided to wade in last fall (I think). I'm still wondering what the fuss is. It was a struggle to get through season 1 - mainly because I thought the acting from a few of the lead characters was so bad it was painful, just stiff and trying way too hard. I got as far as a few episodes of season 2 before stopping and only generally recall a couple of episodes that stood out (don't remember the titles). It has now been a few months since I watched any of it, and even though it was improving, I haven't been anxious to get back. Can someone convince me? How long before it really takes off?

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On 3/12/2017 at 3:08 AM, justmehere said:

I heard how good this show was and finally decided to wade in last fall (I think). I'm still wondering what the fuss is. It was a struggle to get through season 1 - mainly because I thought the acting from a few of the lead characters was so bad it was painful, just stiff and trying way too hard. I got as far as a few episodes of season 2 before stopping and only generally recall a couple of episodes that stood out (don't remember the titles). It has now been a few months since I watched any of it, and even though it was improving, I haven't been anxious to get back. Can someone convince me? How long before it really takes off?

The series did start off a bit slow, and was very much hampered by the idea that Star Trek shows should be nothing but stand-alone episodes.  And given the fact that the cast is made up of recurring characters (outside the main characters (there end up being a LOT of recurring characters--whcih is awesome!).  But I would agree that at the end of Season 2 the over-arching stories began to really coalesce and take flight.  By the fourth season, my college boyfriend was living somewhere he didn't get it, and I was every week emailing him long, detailed descriptions of every episode (this was before forums with recap services!) and he was anxiously awaiting the delivery of his monthly box of VHS tapes with the episodes on them--even after he had pages of my descriptions of the action.  If that doesn't say something about how the series progresses, I'm not sure what more I could say.

When they finally started coming out on DVD, I saved up money from my grocery budget and scrapped it together however I could to get them the first day, and watched the whole series again up to the point of the newest release--and they were coming out every month, so not only was that a huge economic issue (they were all over $100 per season), but I was also rewatching the early seasons EVERY MONTH to make sure every detail was immediately to hand as I watched the new season.  Although in some ways you could start again at the end of Season 2 with the 3 part episode, I suspect that a number of things won't make sense without the background.  This series has some absolutely amazing episodes, but I do agree that they come later in the series.  However, this is a show that really builds upon prior history, and things that didn't seem important are referenced later and some even become major plot points.  

And I pity anyone who loves good, compelling and morally complex drama who hasn't seen "In the Pale Moonlight."  

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3 hours ago, Ailianna said:

The series did start off a bit slow, and was very much hampered by the idea that Star Trek shows should be nothing but stand-alone episodes.  And given the fact that the cast is made up of recurring characters (outside the main characters (there end up being a LOT of recurring characters--whcih is awesome!).  But I would agree that at the end of Season 2 the over-arching stories began to really coalesce and take flight.  By the fourth season, my college boyfriend was living somewhere he didn't get it, and I was every week emailing him long, detailed descriptions of every episode (this was before forums with recap services!) and he was anxiously awaiting the delivery of his monthly box of VHS tapes with the episodes on them--even after he had pages of my descriptions of the action.  If that doesn't say something about how the series progresses, I'm not sure what more I could say.

When they finally started coming out on DVD, I saved up money from my grocery budget and scrapped it together however I could to get them the first day, and watched the whole series again up to the point of the newest release--and they were coming out every month, so not only was that a huge economic issue (they were all over $100 per season), but I was also rewatching the early seasons EVERY MONTH to make sure every detail was immediately to hand as I watched the new season.  Although in some ways you could start again at the end of Season 2 with the 3 part episode, I suspect that a number of things won't make sense without the background.  This series has some absolutely amazing episodes, but I do agree that they come later in the series.  However, this is a show that really builds upon prior history, and things that didn't seem important are referenced later and some even become major plot points.  

And I pity anyone who loves good, compelling and morally complex drama who hasn't seen "In the Pale Moonlight."  

Ailianna, thank you for the detailed response. I'll stick with it (may need to backtrack a little) and will hopefully get to the good stuff very soon!

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3 hours ago, justmehere said:

I'll stick with it (may need to backtrack a little)

If you do decide to backtrack into season 1, pay closer attention to the secondary cast than the primary. (The recurring characters that show up in the post-opening credits in the "Also Starring" section; characters like Garak, Nog, and Rom, for example.)  That's where there's more pay-off in later seasons.  DS9 is where they took the lesson from TNG of expanding a secondary cast character like they would a main (Miles O'Brien himself), and ran with it.

There's a funny story about the writers' room for DS9.  After Gene's passing, there was a small bust of him in Rick Berman's office.  And every time a writing idea came up that would make for a good story on DS9, but went counter to what Gene's vision for Star Trek, the bust got blindfolded, so "Gene wouldn't have to see what they were doing".  And according to an interview from a few years ago, Berman still has the bust, and it still has the blindfold on.

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11 hours ago, SVNBob said:

If you do decide to backtrack into season 1, pay closer attention to the secondary cast than the primary. (The recurring characters that show up in the post-opening credits in the "Also Starring" section; characters like Garak, Nog, and Rom, for example.)  That's where there's more pay-off in later seasons.  DS9 is where they took the lesson from TNG of expanding a secondary cast character like they would a main (Miles O'Brien himself), and ran with it.

There's a funny story about the writers' room for DS9.  After Gene's passing, there was a small bust of him in Rick Berman's office.  And every time a writing idea came up that would make for a good story on DS9, but went counter to what Gene's vision for Star Trek, the bust got blindfolded, so "Gene wouldn't have to see what they were doing".  And according to an interview from a few years ago, Berman still has the bust, and it still has the blindfold on.

Thanks for the tip and the story.

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I've been watching most of the Trek iterations on H&I but not Deep Space Nine. I've gone through TOS, Enteprise, stopped Voyager after the introduction of Seven of Nine, and even the animated series (which, aside from the cheesy animation, I quite enjoy).

I watched it when it was on, but it was more my devotion to Trek than because I really liked it. I was put off almost from the beginning by an Avery Brooks interview where he seemed to dismiss Trek as just another job, without acknowledging its history in pop culture.

I finally decided to watch DS9 again last night. Good lord, but the opening theme is so ponderous and full of itself.  

Edited by SmithW6079

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On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 4:17 PM, Gilmel said:

I think "Profit and Lace" has the distinction of being the worst episode of the entire series.

SF Debris would disagree: he had Let He Who is Without Sin...* as worst of the series: I'd probably agree (though Profit and Lace is Godawful too).

ETA: D'Oh! Memory failure: Chuck had Profit & Lace as the worst, Let He Who Is Without Sin as second worse. I'm still going with LHWIWS as my choice, though.

Incidentally, in the past few months there have been a couple of Canon Submissions of DS9 episodes: Duet (EHG 124) and In the Pale Moonlight (EHG 151). The results?

Spoiler

Duet made it: ITPM didn't

* The crew abandon the station to visit Risa in the middle of the war to act like a bunch of jerks. They meet a group of fundamentalists to show them how real jerks act.

Edited by John Potts

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To be fair, they weren't at war yet.  The Dominion hadn't even come into the Alpha Quadrant and set up shop on Cardassia yet.   Still, not a great episode.   I can't rank it as worst though, not with Move Along Home, Q Less and Profit and Lace out there.  At least LHWIWS has Vanessa Williams.  

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I don't hate Let He Who Is Without Sin. If I remember correctly there were some funny moments. And interesting ones like that Julian and Lita went on vacation to break up. And it also the first hit that she likes Rom. Worf is a bit a downer however ;).

Move along Home is trippy and kind of fun. I also don't hate this episode, while it isn't great. The only real bad part is that song.

In my opinion the worst episodes is Return to Grace: seriously very boring. The only thing I remember about the episode is that Dukot doesn't shut up and they get a klingon ship. Then followed by Second Sight: as it is more just pointless.

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I hated how Rick Berman and Michael Pillar brought the useless (I slept my way to the top) Admiral McChariff, She was such a useless character in the three episodes in Next Generation and they hammered her to signs of ridiculous to where in the season 3 premiere even the DS9 crew's fantasy induced by the Dominion showed she was a moron. I know that Rick Berman later explained that the point of her character was to be a high ranking person who had lost touch with what was going on because being behind "a desk." Later on, they said they dropped her because there were only two choices: 1. Killer her off or 2. Kill her off in a blaze of glory. And they didn't want to do either do to the actress. So, they dropped her. 

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1 hour ago, readster said:

I hated how Rick Berman and Michael Pillar brought the useless (I slept my way to the top) Admiral McChariff, She was such a useless character in the three episodes in Next Generation and they hammered her to signs of ridiculous to where in the season 3 premiere even the DS9 crew's fantasy induced by the Dominion showed she was a moron. I know that Rick Berman later explained that the point of her character was to be a high ranking person who had lost touch with what was going on because being behind "a desk." Later on, they said they dropped her because there were only two choices: 1. Killer her off or 2. Kill her off in a blaze of glory. And they didn't want to do either do to the actress. So, they dropped her. 

Yeah, Admiral Ross was much better.  He really seemed to get the unique position that DS9 had as the guardian of the wormhole and that Sisko had as the Emissary, so he was a little less inclined to be by-the-book than his predecessor was.

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9 hours ago, readster said:

Admiral McChariff

Nechayev.  I actually kind of enjoyed her.  She was supposed to be unlikeable, and Natalia Nogulich played her really well.

Ross was better, as @legaleagle53 says, but that was at least in part because he was the only admiral in Starfleet that wasn't completely useless.

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I did like Ross better too, but I remember JJ Abrams saying when they were working on both the relaunch and into the darkness, he was tired of the admirals being useless and brainless. Of course look at what happened in Into the Darkness. 

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Yeah, Admiral Ross was much better.  He really seemed to get the unique position that DS9 had as the guardian of the wormhole and that Sisko had as the Emissary, so he was a little less inclined to be by-the-book than his predecessor was.

Ross also knew that sadly, people like the Dominion, even races like the Romulans, Kligons and Cardassians are going to do what they want to do. Nechayev wanted everyone to play nice and her option was: "Just tell them, they'll listen." Yeah, like how the Maques right?

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20 hours ago, readster said:

I hated how Rick Berman and Michael Pillar brought the useless (I slept my way to the top) Admiral McChariff, She was such a useless character in the three episodes in Next Generation and they hammered her to signs of ridiculous to where in the season 3 premiere even the DS9 crew's fantasy induced by the Dominion showed she was a moron. I know that Rick Berman later explained that the point of her character was to be a high ranking person who had lost touch with what was going on because being behind "a desk." Later on, they said they dropped her because there were only two choices: 1. Killer her off or 2. Kill her off in a blaze of glory. And they didn't want to do either do to the actress. So, they dropped her. 

I don't really remember her much on DS9, but I liked her on TNG. I loved how she seemed to have an instant dislike to Picard, and kinda figured she was the main reason he never got a promotion on the show. (Not that I hated Picard or anything (far from it), but it was a great excuse to keep him in the captain's chair for over a decade.)

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2 hours ago, The Crazed Spruce said:

I don't really remember her much on DS9, but I liked her on TNG. I loved how she seemed to have an instant dislike to Picard, and kinda figured she was the main reason he never got a promotion on the show. (Not that I hated Picard or anything (far from it), but it was a great excuse to keep him in the captain's chair for over a decade.)

That, plus Admiral Kirk had warned him in Star Trek: Generations never to let Starfleet promote him.  

By contrast, Sisko was promoted far later than he should have been (just to bring the discussion back a bit closer to the topic) because apparently in Berman and Pillar's minds, there wasn't enough room for a captain on TNG and a captain on DS9 while they were both still airing.  That's why Sisko wasn't promoted to captain until after TNG had ended.

Edited by legaleagle53
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It's also why they wouldn't let Avery Brooks shave his head.  Only room for one bald guy in Starfleet.

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25 minutes ago, starri said:

It's also why they wouldn't let Avery Brooks shave his head.  Only room for one bald guy in Starfleet.

Funny and true. 

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Hey, I'd vote for General Martok. He worked his way up to where he was and wouldn't let those Klingon aristocrats like Kor keep him down!

Edited by VCRTracking
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