S02.E11: The Reverse-Flash Returns

[Princess Lucky]

Barry is the worst. He is a drag and he is making the entire show worse with his behaviour. S1 Barry had his issues, but he was fun to watch. This Barry is not.

 

Patty is a close second, but thankfully she's gone. What a waste of time she was.

 

Jay and Caitlin are boring (though I do like them both, probably because I'm fond of the actors from their other work). Hopefully the Hunter Zolomon thing will give Jay something to do for once.

 

Iris deserves better. Like, I don't know, to be included in the actual story and not be off in her own irrelevant plot week after week. This is how the writers treat their lead actress?

 

Zoom is underwhelming, which this episode perfectly displayed by giving us the vastly more entertaining Reverse Flash. I loved seeing Matt Letscher again. He is awesome, though the material he had to work with wasn't the best.

 

Joe and Francine and Wally, whatever. Bring Wally into the main story as well and then I'll care.

 

The only part of the show I still actively enjoy (other than Candice Patton's acting) is the Harry/Cisco interaction. Which, from what I gather from interviews, is heavily improvised. No wonder it's good. The writers aren't involved.

[sjohnson]

Except that she decided to leave town to pursue her dream of being an CSI, before she figured out who Barry was, and her leaving had nothing to do with thinking being Flash's girlfriend was too dangerous. Since she'd broken up with him over something else just last week.

Don't think she needed an ultimatum to Barry for her to drop her plans to go away. Presenting an ultimatum is a good way to break it off, is what I do think. 

[benteen]

Barry is the worst. He is a drag and he is making the entire show worse with his behaviour. S1 Barry had his issues, but he was fun to watch. This Barry is not.

 

Patty is a close second, but thankfully she's gone. What a waste of time she was.

 

Jay and Caitlin are boring (though I do like them both, probably because I'm fond of the actors from their other work). Hopefully the Hunter Zolomon thing will give Jay something to do for once.

 

Iris deserves better. Like, I don't know, to be included in the actual story and not be off in her own irrelevant plot week after week. This is how the writers treat their lead actress?

 

Zoom is underwhelming, which this episode perfectly displayed by giving us the vastly more entertaining Reverse Flash. I loved seeing Matt Letscher again. He is awesome, though the material he had to work with wasn't the best.

 

Joe and Francine and Wally, whatever. Bring Wally into the main story as well and then I'll care.

 

The only part of the show I still actively enjoy (other than Candice Patton's acting) is the Harry/Cisco interaction. Which, from what I gather from interviews, is heavily improvised. No wonder it's good. The writers aren't involved.

 

100% on Barry's behavior and it makes matter worse that his friends and family enable and encourage his behavior.  Barry wants to risk absolutely everything to go back in time to save his mother?  Their response is go for it, Barry!  They treat him like he's a delicate genius and rarely call him out for his shitty behavior.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Don't think she needed an ultimatum to Barry for her to drop her plans to go away. Presenting an ultimatum is a good way to break it off, is what I do think. 

 

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative, but I'm not sure what you mean here. Your original post stated that knowing Barry was the Flash was too dangerous for her to remain his girlfriend; when the fact of the matter was, when she broke things off, she didn't know or suspect, at the time she broke up with him, that he was The Flash. So that wasn't even a consideration.

 

But really, it was just lazy, sloppy, insulting bit of back and forth, just so...what? I'm not even sure the writers know what the fuck they were doing.

[phoenics]

Don't think she needed an ultimatum to Barry for her to drop her plans to go away. Presenting an ultimatum is a good way to break it off, is what I do think.

Wait - are you saying that Patty broke it off with the "tell me or I leave" ultimatum that she knew he would fail, so she could skip town?

From what I saw, Patty already dumped Barry and was leaving town. She'd packed up her stuff and was out of there. Then she got mad when Barry didn't chase after her (he never chased her all season - SHE CHASED HIM). Then she says "tell me you're the flash and I'll stay".. she was BEGGING him to chase her and keep her in town.

Barry refused and Patty then acted very angry that Barry wouldn't chase her. Plus - if you have to beg a man to be with you anyway and open up to you - you're already on the losing end. Patty started off in this relationship with NO power whatsoever. She has a constant need for validation and people pleasing and that's why she chased down Barry until he finally asked her out. But SHE. Chased. HIM. Barry did not have to lift one finger to be with her. Not one. No effort whatsoever. It was easy. Effortless - because Patty did all of the work while Barry lied all the time and never really took her seriously.

So now, after Patty has already dumped him without discussing her plans beforehand, Patty comes back after she figures out he's the Flash and basically tries to convince him to WORK for her - to open up (something he'd been refusing to do their entire insta-relationship), and tell her his deepest darkest secrets and convince her to stay.

Barry - who hadn't had to WORK for Patty at all - refused.

There really is something to the adage that you can't just offer it all up on a platter for men - leave some mystique - dang. Basically, Patty was a classic "NiceGirl" who people pleased to excess and craved validation from everyone (Joe, Iris and Barry). And Barry in the end, decided to let her dump of him "stand". It's basically the bad boy trope reversed. Patty had no mystique to her - she wasn't a conquest - there was nothing to them - except her constantly trying to have a "real" relationship with Barry, while Barry was only trying to prove to RF that he could be "happy".

FYI - in the comics before the new 52,

Patty kept wanting Barry to open up to her, but he never did. He ended up opening up to Iris and falling in love with her... so Barry on the show being unable to open up to Patty was taken from comic canon. New 52 canon is a bit different, but some of the elements are still similar.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Chip

[Moya the Leviathan]

"Whoa, I can see into the future? These things are getting named immediately."  Except they aren't.

 

This episode gets a C-minus for that alone.  And goes downhill from there.

 

 

 

Edit: I'm too old to write without some punctuation, even if I torture it into choppy and/or run-on sentences.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Moya the Leviathan

[cambridgeguy]

 

Iris deserves better. Like, I don't know, to be included in the actual story and not be off in her own irrelevant plot week after week. This is how the writers treat their lead actress?

Perhaps the writers think that this is what makes an actress a lead.  Everyone else (except Wally) is busy helping Barry do his thing but Iris gets her own unique plotline that, in theory, is actually pretty meaty and does NOT include Barry as a major component.  After all, Cisco's family showed up once and as far as I can remember Caitlin has no family at all aside from the dearly departed Ronnie.

[phoenics]

They did do that with Karen on Daredevil in S1 - but eventually her storyline converged with the main storyline.

My worry is that once it converges, Iris will be shuffled aside again.

[Ruby25]

My guess is that she will probably be more involved, or at least have more screentime.

 

I predicted way back in the summer that since they were giving Barry a new love interest, Iris was probably going to be sidelined. And Patty sure got a lot of screentime. But now that she's gone (and I completely expect the show to move back in the WestAllen direction now that Barry has an appropriate amount of "experience," smh), Iris will come to the forefront again.

 

That's just my guess. It's sad that they can't really write for their female characters if they're not love interests, but I always had a feeling this would be the case. I do think Iris will have more of a role now.

[kieyra]

After a couple of hours to think:

--Patty was the weirdest plot device I've seen in a while (on any show). I don't get what she represented.

--While I didn't love her coming back to complain after she broke up with him, and I can only imagine the shredding she must be getting by the boys on Reddit, I'm not having the mainstream gut reaction to her final act as a "dick move".

--And this is because I feel the ultimate dick move was performed by Barry, in first getting involved with someone when he had no intention of it being a real relationship of equals, and then adding insult to injury by basically being all "I know you know but I'm going to lie right to your face anyway. P.S. I maybe loved you, but it's another thing you don't get to know for sure.". Verged on gaslighting to me. Cruel at best.

--And thus, by forcing Barry to reveal himself, she was able to attain some vague approximation of parity in the relationship, which she'd never had.

--And hopefully she now moves on, because despite my sticking up for her having earned the right to prove she wasn't crazy, she was never a real character. Just a poorly implemented device.

Edited January 28, 2016 by kieyra

[tennisgurl]

Alright show, that is officially enough of Patty. I mean, Barry should have told her the truth when she confronted him, but calling in a fake shooter was pretty messed up, especially for a cop. Goodbye for real, Patty. I didn't hate you, but I really wont miss you. 

 

Awww Harry does care about Cisco. The two of them are just gold together, and I was actually touched by how upset he was by Cisco being in danger. Its probably as emotional as he has gotten about anything since seeing his daughter. Of course, its hard not to love Cisco. He is the best thing going in this whole franchise. He is just the best. 

 

I miss Ice Queen Caitlyn from season 1. She was a lot more interesting. 

 

I actually like the story with Iris and her family issues, but I really hope it gets wrapped up into the main plot somehow. 

[sjohnson]

Spivot broke up with Barry because she was unceremoniously dumped at random intervals, no reason given. But then, she figures out Barry is the Flash, that explains that. Since it's explained, why does she need the ultimatum? What would be different if Barry said, yes, I'm the Flash? Nothing. It would make about as much sense for her to demand an apology. She has nothing to apologize for given the situation, but she did dump him, and she knows perfectly well that hurts. Immediately giving an ultimatum instead of a little time to get over getting dumped still doesn't seem to me like someone entirely sincere in wanting a "yes." 

[johntfs]

You say that like it isn't completely nonsensical. And no, he doesn't "cease to exist" in the future. He wasn't wiped from the timeline at all, which is why Eddie's sacrifice was rendered void by the writers. In fact, the whole thing where Thawne ceased to exist but Barry's Mum and Eddie was still dead didn't make any sense in the first place. This is just another level of "but we just wanted to" added on top of it.

 

And no, we haven't had Eobard Thawne from Earth 2 to deal with already. So they could have just said "he's from Earth 2" and it would have made more sense and left what Eddie did intact. Of course, then we wouldn't have had the Cisco paradox breakdown. But if Cisco isn't already having one of those from the fact that Thawne was never born but still killed Barry's mother, then why would he now?

 

On the Patty note, I never minded her. But I have no idea why she was given another episode only to have her and Barry flip sides on the argument. Last episode he was going to tell her and she was leaving. Now she's thinking of staying and he won't tell her?

 

It makes enough sense to me to live it.  Basically Reverse-Flash is going to pop up like a Whack-a-mole ever so often and there's really nothing anyone can do about it.  Beyond that:

 

If you're how time travel works,

and other science facts, la-la-la.

Then repeat yourself, "'Tis but a show,

I should really just relax..."

[driedfruit]

--While I didn't love her coming back to complain after she broke up with him, and I can only imagine the shredding she must be getting by the boys on Reddit, I'm not having the mainstream gut reaction to her final act as a "dick move".

 

LOL no, Patty can do no wrong according to Reddit. I don't care enough to figure if Patty's moves were justified or not, but she's definitely not getting dragged by many. Certainly not the way Iris would get trashed if she'd pulled anything like this. 

 

I miss Ice Queen Caitlyn from season 1. She was a lot more interesting.

 

 

Yes, this. She was great as that character, by what she brought to the cast dynamic and Danielle's weaknesses weren't as apparent playing he closed off character as opposed to when they make her act cutesy and thirsty. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by driedfruit

[Xenith22]

Spivot broke up with Barry because she was unceremoniously dumped at random intervals, no reason given. But then, she figures out Barry is the Flash, that explains that. Since it's explained, why does she need the ultimatum? What would be different if Barry said, yes, I'm the Flash?

What do you mean what would be different?  It would mean the two of them could potentially attempt to have an honest serious relationship together, something that could never happen as long as he refused to share that part of his life with her?

 

I mean here is her speech from last episode:

Nothing? I mean, come on, Barry.  Anything is better than nothing.  I mean, come on.  Holy crap, I've been a really, really cool girlfriend.

Most girls don't have the self-esteem to handle the... plans? Oh, no plans. That's cool.  Or the... or the...waking up in the middle of the night screaming again.  Fine, whatever.  And then... and then the really, really fancy plans...which were awesome. And then you ditched me right before I almost died.  I'm actually really upset.  Look, we've been having fun. And fun has been so great.  But... I'm moving past fun to the close part. That's what I want, okay?  That's where I'm going.

 

With the knowledge that he is the Flash suddenly those plans that he missed become way more excusable than irresponsible. He can potentially share what's really keeping him up at night that she can try to help him deal with it.  She understands why he has to suddenly "ditch" her in the middle of events.  She doesn't have to wonder anymore what he is hiding.  These are the reasons which lead to her decision to go to Midway City.   Don't take my word for it...her own words in this episode:

 

Look, you don't have to lie to me anymore, okay?  I understand... I understand why you didn't want to tell me.

I understand why you've been distant. Look, I understand everything. But just tell me the truth now.

 

I mean clearly she had developed strong feelings for him, which is why it hurt that even after she told him he was leaving her never told her to stay or showed that he was the least bit upset.   However he did refer to her someone that he loved...so she certainly had reason to believe he had strong feelings towards her too.   Going back to the museum gala they implicitly agreed that they trusted each other.   So that's why I can't fault her for this:

 

"Just be honest with me.  Just... admit to me you're The Flash and I'll stay."

 

With the Flash secret out in the open between them they could honestly attempt the real relationship that she wanted and seemingly could not have when she made the decision to leave?  An honest serious relationship is what she begged him for before the Turtle kidnapping when he had no answers.  Of course now the only way for that to happen was for Barry to be willing to admit he was the Flash.  I mean again he already stated he trusted her, so given that she confidently already knew (because Joe handled the accusation sooooo badly.  I mean the wide eyes darting back and forth, followed the the rushed "it's weird" response as his first instict was to get out of dodge as fast as possible. Wow...just wow bad at secret keeping.  She would have to have the IQ of an toddler not to see that as an 100% confirmation of her guess) the truth and did not even ask him if he was the Flash but instead stated it as fact...it should not have been a big deal to come clean to her if he really trusted/loved her at that point?   If he really did not feel he trusted her or cared for her enough to let her in on his life as the Flash, then there was no point in her staying.  Relationships without trust just do not usually last or make for happy ones...

 

So I don't view her words here as an ultimatum in the typical sense.   I mean it was sort of backwards in that she wasn't threatening to leave him, she was already leaving was instead offering him a chance to have her stay?

 

Really I think I'm even softening a bit on my view of the train incident.  I mean yeah it was stupid of her, but his denial of her (and his cold demeanor doing it) was a massive slap in the face to her.  I mean she really is in tears when he rejects her.  To her that denial likely seemed like proof that he apparently lied about really trusting her and loving her. People sometimes do stupid things when they are emotionally hurt like that, So she lashed out at him in the first way she could think of that did not seem particularly malicious (ie intentionally outing him). She was hurt and angry and just wanted to rub it in his face that despite his denial she still knew the truth.  Sure she probably could have come up with a better way, but again emotions combined with the likely rush to get all her stuff together and on the train (since she probably believed he was going to admit it and she was going to stay)...I get it that she just went with it.  Once that was done she had closure and felt free to really put it behind her and move on with her life.

 

So yeah, I have changed my mind.  Barry is by far the bigger dick in this episode and it is not close.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Xenith22

[Ruby25]

I think the key point in all of that is that IF he really loved her he would have wanted her to stay, since she knew the truth anyway and was fine with it. For him to reject her even in the face of all that couldn't be a bigger hint that he didn't really WANT the relationship to continue, did he? I mean, he kinda even said to Joe in this episode, that he just doesn't want another person in on it. I mean, supposedly for her safety, but we all know when Iris inevitably declares her feelings for him he's going to jump at that so hard he won't know what hit him.

 

I just really don't think he was into Patty enough to want to keep it going with her (I mean if he did, distance would hardly be a problem, lol).

Edited January 28, 2016 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Spivot broke up with Barry because she was unceremoniously dumped at random intervals, no reason given. But then, she figures out Barry is the Flash, that explains that. Since it's explained, why does she need the ultimatum? What would be different if Barry said, yes, I'm the Flash? Nothing. It would make about as much sense for her to demand an apology. She has nothing to apologize for given the situation, but she did dump him, and she knows perfectly well that hurts. Immediately giving an ultimatum instead of a little time to get over getting dumped still doesn't seem to me like someone entirely sincere in wanting a "yes."

This is ONLY true if Patty didn't dump Barry to get him to "realize how much she means to him" and then have him chase her. If she really wanted to be over with Barry, she wouldn't have spent all of that time figuring out he was The Flash. She literally went through every case Barry had (overnight?) and figured out he was The Flash as a result. THEN she goes to him, thinking she has "the thing" that will finally break down all of the walls he's put up with her since the beginning of their insta-relationship and presents it to him like it's a gift. Notice she's smiling hopefully when she says "Just tell me you're the Flash and I'll stay".

She's BEGGING him to chase her and convince her to stay, convinced the reason is because he's The Flash and that's why he's been closed off. That's why she had to do all of the work in the relationship.

I think that was part of the reason he was closed off - but the other reason was that Patty made it too easy for him. Even now, she presented herself on a silver platter yet again and still Barry looked at what was presented and said no.

Patty WANTED him to chase her - she thought she had the trump card that would finally convince him to choose her and open up to her. He refused and thus Patty left his lab - really hurt-pissed-angry. Her attempt to get him to open up to her and chase her FAILED.

Barry had good reason - he wanted to give her a better life and honestly his secret is his secret to tell but ... and also I think that if Patty had discussed leaving with him prior to just deciding to do it he might have told her. But the way it all went down - like emotional blackmail and ultimatums - most guys I know run from that.

The problem is that Patty chase Barry the WHOLE relationship and then wanted to flip the script and make Barry chase her. It never works out well when women try to do this.

[phoenics]

I think the key point in all of that is that IF he really loved her he would have wanted her to stay, since she knew the truth anyway and was fine with it. For him to reject her even in the face of all that couldn't be a bigger hint that he didn't really WANT the relationship to continue, did he? I mean, he kinda even said to Joe in this episode, that he just doesn't want another person in on it. I mean, supposedly for her safety, but we all know when Iris inevitably declares her feelings for him he's going to jump at that so hard he won't know what hit him.

I think this is mostly true - however I think with Iris he's going to be more afraid for her than anything. Like I said before - Patty was an appetizer in this multi-course meal of fear Zoom is serving up Barry. Iris is the main course, dessert and everything else because we all know that if Barry had a choice between Patty and Iris, Iris would win, hands down. The only reason Patty had a chance with Barry is because Iris was grieving and unavailable. In fact, the reason Patty had to chase Barry down was because, "She's not Iris."

Even if Barry had told Patty and she stayed, eventually she would learn that one of the reasons why Barry was closed off to her had more to do with him not being sure she was "it" for him because Iris.

But I think Barry's "must push you away to protect you" arc will continue... I think this time it's Iris who will realize she has feelings for Barry and wants to be with him, but he will already be in "I can't have relationships" mode because of what happened with Patty and Zoom, so... angst city. We get to watch Iris pine?

 

I just really don't think he was into Patty enough to want to keep it going with her (I mean if he did, distance would hardly be a problem, lol).

I agree. Patty was chasing Barry and begging Barry to open up to her the entire relationship (it was this way in the original comics, except Patty just pined for Barry). She wanted him to chase HER. She wanted to be "it" for him, all the while Barry was just trying to prove to Reverse Flash/Eobard/Wells that he could be happy.

Edited January 28, 2016 by phoenics

[cambridgeguy]

 

--Patty was the weirdest plot device I've seen in a while (on any show). I don't get what she represented.

The producers and the majority of Arrow fandom LOVE Felicity Smoak.  Since Arrow is still going strong they can't bring her over all the time - therefore, they did the next best thing in their minds and brought in Patty.  Heck, the final nail in the Barry/Felicity coffin was a scene on a train, just like the one in this episode.  Without the seen-it-all bystanders who are apparently used to the Flash popping up out of nowhere, of course.  Wouldn't someone instagram of tweet about that?

[kieyra]

The producers and the majority of Arrow fandom LOVE Felicity Smoak.  Since Arrow is still going strong they can't bring her over all the time - therefore, they did the next best thing in their minds and brought in Patty. 

 

Hmm, this seems slightly facile to me as far as explanations go, if only because they kind of failed to give Patty a personality, whereas Felicity is all personality. Someone, somewhere behind the scenes of these shows knows how to write engaging characters, but they only seem to be allowed to write for a few of them, such as Cisco. 

 

The problem is that Patty chase Barry the WHOLE relationship and then wanted to flip the script and make Barry chase her. It never works out well when women try to do this.

 

 

Also not hugely into this reductive 'women are so unattractive when desperate' read on the situation.

 

1) Barry dropped the L word. Either he meant it, or it was a dick move.

2) Yes, humans including men are wired to want stuff they can't have. Flipping the script does work.

Edited January 28, 2016 by kieyra

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Second Reverse, Same As The First
Barry's old enemy is back, hating on him all over again.

[phoenics]

Also not hugely into this reductive 'women are so unattractive when desperate' read on the situation.

I tend to think women with self esteem are the most attractive. Patty's entire schtick of babbling a million apologies just to disagree with someone or apologizing for them for bad behavior, or acting like she was just SO downtrodden initially was a huge turn off to me for her as a character. I saw some fans seemed to like it and think she was just adorkable - but I saw her as a people pleasing person who craved everyone's validation. That's why she put up with Barry's mess for 6 episodes and that's why she couched her own insecurities and inability to stand up for herself as being a "cool girlfriend". No - that's called being a doormat because you're afraid that if you speak your mind, the man in question WON'T actually stand up and be the man you want him to be.

And that's exactly what happened.

This isn't about painting Patty as desperate or being reductive - it's about calling her as the spade she is: insecure, validation seeking, overly apologetic (this is an issue many women have, but with her it happened so much that it grated) and inviting Barry to walk all over her.

The only time she managed to not be a doormat was when she was demanding a job with Joe. And when she went after her father's killer. But even in interactions with Joe, she would do that apologetic-stutter thing as though afraid that her act of disagreeing with Joe was just the worst thing ever. I was actually relieved at the end when she point blank told him that he was a terrible liar. But by then I was just done with the character. The idea that women have to present themselves as completely "unthreatening" in order to be received well bothers me.

Patty felt like the result of a focus group with a bunch of fanboys who cannot handle women who stand up for themselves or can actually express an opinion that's a disagreement without apologizing profusely first a million times for merely having a differing opinion.

I HATE that. Can't we be women - amazing women - without having to nearly bow down in order to offer our differing opinions or stand up for ourselves? I'm not advocating

 

1) Yes, humans including men are wired to want stuff they can't have. Flipping the script does work.

Except when it doesn't. Barry COULD have had Patty - he simply didn't want her. "Getting Patty" had never been an issue for him - he didn't even try to get her back - because he's trying to protect her and/or he just didn't want to.

If Barry had had to expend any effort at all into getting with Patty throughout the course of their relationship I could see her ploy working. But she was LEAVING because he didn't expend any energy on her and actually seemed unable to take her or her concerns seriously. I think she *tried* to pull a "I'm leaving" kind of stunt and then searched for answers to satisfy herself on why he couldn't take her seriously or treat their relationship seriously. She thought once she figured out his secret, then that would solve the problem. She would present Barry with the opening he needed to "win her back".

But her problem was bigger than just "Barry is the Flash". Barry just did not want to let her into his world. I believe that for the right woman, he would have found a way to let her stay. He would have begged her to study in Central City. He would have said maybe we can't be together (because Zoom), but we can still be friends. He didn't.

Edited January 28, 2016 by phoenics

[GHScorpiosRule]

I guess I'm just confused.  Patty suddenly wanting to leave (as she explained last week), I believe had something to do with Barry disappearing on her constantly, but if I am to believe what she said, she'd been thinking about this and has "ALWAYS" wanted to go to CSI School, and that the only reason she became a cop was to avenge her father's killer; so her wanting to join Joe's task force was part of that reason. And now that she got his killer, no reason for her to stay, since her heart's not in being a cop. And it seemed like Barry made a token attempt to change her mind, but she wasn't having it. Because this was her DREAM. Add in the fact that Barry wasn't opening up to her, like he should have, because hey, she's a cool girlfriend.  Now I do think Barry was a bad boyfriend to her, but at the same time, I can't ascribe to the notion that everyone must share EVERYTHING when they're in a relationship. What Barry was hiding was huge, I grant you that, but let's just say, for argument's sake, that Barry is the kind of person who doesn't feel comfortable with intimacy or sharing everything.  And how long were they dating anyway?

 

And then the show, the stupid, stupid writers, throw in, hey, Barry! Convince me to stay! Just admit you're the Flash and I'll throw away my DREAM of the GREAT CSI School, and I'll stay with you. That smacked of someone willing to take whatever crumbs that were offered and it was a turn off.  But the whiplashing of Patty's words in this episode, contradicted what she said last week, just gave me whiplash.

 

I didn't and don't like Patty. She was just too...perky for me to take seriously for most of her run. And then all cold and serious when she learned her dad's killer was in Central City. Unless the show was trying to tell me all that perkiness was a mask. Which I don't believe. She was perky ALL.THE.DAMN.TIME. I'm not sad to see her go.

 

I don't like that Barry is no longer that cute, adorkable, funny guy he was last season. He was the closest I could get to a real live version of Wally West for me, as all iterations of Barry I'd seen, had Barry more of a serious bent.

 

Bottom line for me: Barry just didn't care enough about Patty to ask her to stay or convince her to stay.  And I certainly didn't believe that throw away line that he loved her.

 

Just my .02.

[rogueprinzess]

 

I don't like that Barry is no longer that cute, adorkable, funny guy he was last season. He was the closest I could get to a real live version of Wally West for me, as all iterations of Barry I'd seen, had Barry more of a serious bent.

 

This has been one of the many major issues I've had with this season. I get that Barry did need a note of seriousness after the events of the S1 finale...but it's been over a year now. Considering the super dark themes that Zoom brings to the table, Barry having more levity and sweetness would be a nice balance to the overall tone. Cisco is great, but he needs more than just being the comic relief for the whole show.

 

 

I didn't and don't like Patty. She was just too...perky for me to take seriously for most of her run. And then all cold and serious when she learned her dad's killer was in Central City. Unless the show was trying to tell me all that perkiness was a mask. Which I don't believe. She was perky ALL.THE.DAMN.TIME. I'm not sad to see her go.

 

I'm with you here. Yes, I do love Westallen (in the comics and on this show) but that's not why I disliked her. As I mentioned upthread, she wasn't even a real character IMO. She was a parody of character created solely to be "cute" and "adorable" with Barry and be his seemingly perfect match. They tried WAY too hard with her. Felicity was cute and adorkable and her chemistry with Barry was organic, The showrunners should have picked another actress if they couldn't find that same chemistry for Patty. Besides how terribly her personality was written, there was also the issue with her only living for pleasing the people around her and the boy she was dating. But that's an overarching issue with The Flash in general with its female characters. Shame on them considering that the source material made a point to make the female characters in these stories strong and independent in their own right. But digressing, those two major things made it impossible for me to latch on to Patty for the long term.

 

 

Bottom line for me: Barry just didn't care enough about Patty to ask her to stay or convince her to stay.  And I certainly didn't believe that throw away line that he loved her.

 

THIS. It was obvious to me from day one that Barry was never really all that into Patty. As mentioned upthread, he never pursued her, she did all the work. He blatantly stated when Joe asked him about her that as far as Barry was concerned, Patty wasn't Iris. I interpreted that to mean that every woman he comes in contact with as a potential love interest will always be measured by the standard of what Iris is to him (and inevitably fall short). Almost every step in their very brief relationship was initiated by Patty, and usually done with either 1) whining  2) needing validation or 3) ultimatums. Barry never yearned to deepen their relationship, to tell her the truth, or to say ILY. To me, Patty was a distraction, an welcome one during a particularly shitty time. She was doing all the work and he got to enjoy the fruits of that. I never got the impression that Barry ever subconsciously saw Patty as a long term partner. Unfair to Patty? Yes. But so was Patty in that (according to the previous episode) she apparently always planned on hitting CSI school and leaving CC and didn't communicate that to Barry once she felt they were getting serious enough for him to confess his deepest secrets. I do think Barry cares for Patty, but he isn't in love with her and he outright told her that. Maybe if Patty had made him actually work at any part of their relationship he may have valued it more, but as the saying goes: easy come, easy go.

[Ruby25]

THIS. It was obvious to me from day one that Barry was never really all that into Patty. As mentioned upthread, he never pursued her, she did all the work. He blatantly stated when Joe asked him about her that as far as Barry was concerned, Patty wasn't Iris. I interpreted that to mean that every woman he comes in contact with as a potential love interest will always be measured by the standard of what Iris is to him (and inevitably fall short). Almost every step in their very brief relationship was initiated by Patty, and usually done with either 1) whining  2) needing validation or 3) ultimatums. Barry never yearned to deepen their relationship, to tell her the truth, or to say ILY. To me, Patty was a distraction, an welcome one during a particularly shitty time. She was doing all the work and he got to enjoy the fruits of that. I never got the impression that Barry ever subconsciously saw Patty as a long term partner. Unfair to Patty? Yes. But so was Patty in that (according to the previous episode) she apparently always planned on hitting CSI school and leaving CC and didn't communicate that to Barry once she felt they were getting serious enough for him to confess his deepest secrets. I do think Barry cares for Patty, but he isn't in love with her and he outright told her that. Maybe if Patty had made him actually work at any part of their relationship he may have valued it more, but as the saying goes: easy come, easy go.

 

Yeah, I totally agree. I thought this was very obvious from Day 1.

[SevenStars]

This has been one of the many major issues I've had with this season. I get that Barry did need a note of seriousness after the events of the S1 finale...but it's been over a year now. Considering the super dark themes that Zoom brings to the table, Barry having more levity and sweetness would be a nice balance to the overall tone. Cisco is great, but he needs more than just being the comic relief for the whole show.

I'm with you here. Yes, I do love Westallen (in the comics and on this show) but that's not why I disliked her. As I mentioned upthread, she wasn't even a real character IMO. She was a parody of character created solely to be "cute" and "adorable" with Barry and be his seemingly perfect match. They tried WAY too hard with her. Felicity was cute and adorkable and her chemistry with Barry was organic, The showrunners should have picked another actress if they couldn't find that same chemistry for Patty. Besides how terribly her personality was written, there was also the issue with her only living for pleasing the people around her and the boy she was dating. But that's an overarching issue with The Flash in general with its female characters. Shame on them considering that the source material made a point to make the female characters in these stories strong and independent in their own right. But digressing, those two major things made it impossible for me to latch on to Patty for the long term.

THIS. It was obvious to me from day one that Barry was never really all that into Patty. As mentioned upthread, he never pursued her, she did all the work. He blatantly stated when Joe asked him about her that as far as Barry was concerned, Patty wasn't Iris. I interpreted that to mean that every woman he comes in contact with as a potential love interest will always be measured by the standard of what Iris is to him (and inevitably fall short). Almost every step in their very brief relationship was initiated by Patty, and usually done with either 1) whining 2) needing validation or 3) ultimatums. Barry never yearned to deepen their relationship, to tell her the truth, or to say ILY. To me, Patty was a distraction, an welcome one during a particularly shitty time. She was doing all the work and he got to enjoy the fruits of that. I never got the impression that Barry ever subconsciously saw Patty as a long term partner. Unfair to Patty? Yes. But so was Patty in that (according to the previous episode) she apparently always planned on hitting CSI school and leaving CC and didn't communicate that to Barry once she felt they were getting serious enough for him to confess his deepest secrets. I do think Barry cares for Patty, but he isn't in love with her and he outright told her that. Maybe if Patty had made him actually work at any part of their relationship he may have valued it more, but as the saying goes: easy come, easy go.

I agree with all of this and I still don't think Patty was wrong in her actions before this episode. Patty clearly liked and wanted Barry from the moment she meant him, so she did what she needed to do in order to get him. And Barry wanting to move on from Iris because that's what people wanted/expected, went along with this because he believed that maybe he can truly move on and have a real relationship with someone else. But unfortunately, what the mind wants is not always what the heart wants.

Anyway to me, the minute Patty dumped Barry, she was no longer owed the truth. So her begging him and expecting it was understandable but kind of stupid.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but...........

 

One little 'easy to miss' bit from the episode that I appreciated;  the writers reminded us that Barry/TF can do some things with his SF & abilities - other than run really fast - when they had him phase through the wall(s) to reach RF and Dr McGee before Eobard could kill her.

 

I was so lost in my "stupid Patty!" vitriolic mindset in my initial post, and right after the episode, I almost forgot about it.  I also thought it added a nice little bit of irony, seeing as how other!Eobard encouraged and coached Barry on how to do that; ie, foiled by his own teachings.  So kudos for that, creative team.

Edited January 29, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wanted to smack both Patty AND Barry upside the head this week. Patty decided to leave, which is fine. She is young and she should pursue her dreams. I would have disliked it if she gave up the opportunity to go to school for a guy she has been dating for, what? Like two months? But knowing that she chose to leave, why did she spend half the episode chasing after Barry like a yippy little puppy dog?

 

On the other hand, Barry was being a pouty brat. If he is so determined to keep Patty "safe" by not telling her the truth, then if she stayed then he would either have to keep lying to her or break up with her. When you look at it that way, she did him a favor by choosing to leave. I think that Barry has gotten comfortable with so many people knowing about his secret identity that he hasn't considered what it's going to be like every time he dates someone and he has to decide if or when to tell them his secret. I know there's no hard and fast rule (like after the sixth date, they get debriefed on the Flash), but he needs to really do some thinking about this.

 

Iris is certainly entitled to forgive her mother before she dies, but it really annoys me when people (1) decide to overlook someone's flaws/mistakes just because they're about to die or (2) try to tell other people that they have to see someone before they die. Being on your deathbed doesn't automatically negate being a jerk. Not everyone needs to see someone before they die to get closure.

 

Normally I am very skeptical of anything Harrison says to the Flash crew, but I totally agreed with him when he told Barry not to go downstairs to talk to Eobard because it would just arm him with more information. But of course, both Barry AND Cisco had to go down there to gloat. Think, you guys!

 

And doesn't everyone know that Cisco isn't supposed to start fading out until he's playing his guitar at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance?

[phoenics]

About Iris telling Wally he might regret not seeing Francine later on because he's angry right now... I thought that was sound advice, simply because Francine made one huge mistake, but she's still his mother and she still raised him. So even if Wally managed to get over his anger - if he'd never gone to see Francine after that when she was really sick and then she died before he could get over his anger - that would be traumatic, imo.

Honestly for the closure alone and feeling like at least you made the decision to do something or not do something when you still had the choice to do so. Once Francine died, the choice would have been taken from him.

The only WTF moment about what Iris said was how she said Eddie was her whole world. But the same writers who wrote this episode also wrote 1.12, so I guess that explains that (that was the same ep with Caitlin's inexplicable and really sexist "you deserve a peek" line).

I need David Nutter back on this show.

[Chicago Redshirt]

You know what would be really useful to fight Zoom? A futuristic sentient computer. I wonder where Team Flash might gide on?

[Iamsweetdee]

Nutter only directed the pilot and the second episode, so don't think he had much of anything to do with well, anything. 

[Ottis]

Iris deserves better. Like, I don't know, to be included in the actual story and not be off in her own irrelevant plot week after week. This is how the writers treat their lead actress?

 

 

Her role was doomed from the start. Barry can't have a carnal relationship with the woman he basically grew up with as a sister. That wa sicky and weird from the beginning. I wouldn't call her a lead actress.

 

And then the show, the stupid, stupid writers, throw in, hey, Barry! Convince me to stay! Just admit you're the Flash and I'll throw away my DREAM of the GREAT CSI School, and I'll stay with you.

 

 

Agree, it didn't make sense. Patty had a dream she put aside to find the killer, she did that and now she is returning to her dream. Get it, like it. Barry, meanwhile, realizes that having a love interest mostly endangers them, so he pushes Patty away because he must. OK, super hero cliche, but makes sense. By pushing her away, he irks Patty. OK, that's human. Then Patty is smart enough to figure out Barry is Flash. Wow, well done. So far, I like them even though they each have to go their own ways.

 

And then they have the whole "just tell me the truth and I'll stay" conversation, and then the train thing. Just ... why? Why make both characters out to be idiots? Why can't they be noble and stick with their necessary choices, or be strong and deal with the fact they are together and as a result, Patty is in more danger - so she gears up to handle it when it comes?

 

Normally I am very skeptical of anything Harrison says to the Flash crew, but I totally agreed with him when he told Barry not to go downstairs to talk to Eobard because it would just arm him with more information.

 

 

I was shocked - shocked, I say - when Caitlyn didn't say, "BARRY, we need you in the Cortex now" while Barry was talking to RV. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ottis

[Actionmage]

Her role was doomed from the start. Barry can't have a carnal relationship with the woman he basically grew up with as a sister. That wa sicky and weird from the beginning.

 

As stated many, many times before: Barry was 11 when he moved in with the Wests. He already had a crush on Iris then. They were not raised as siblings. 

 

I was shocked - shocked, I say - when Caitlyn didn't say, "BARRY, we need you in the Cortex now" while Barry was talking to RV.

 

You are not alone in that!

[Chicago Redshirt]

Her role was doomed from the start. Barry can't have a carnal relationship with the woman he basically grew up with as a sister. That wa sicky and weird from the beginning. I wouldn't call her a lead actress.

 

I'm not sure what definition of "lead actress" you might be using where Candice Patton would not be it for this show.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[kieyra]

As stated many, many times before: Barry was 11 when he moved in with the Wests. He already had a crush on Iris then. They were not raised as siblings. 

 

 

I know very well that this isn't a popular opinion, but it being stated 'many' times (I assume you mean on the forums) doesn't really negate the pervasive sibling vibe, especially when they laid on 'Joe as Dad' so thick and they talk about growing up in the same house. One can understand it intellectually and not be able to get past the queasy factor.  (I've never heard the 'he had a crush on her before he moved in' thing before, but maybe the show has tried to tell me that and I missed it.)

 

I understand why people are mad about the treatment of Candice Patton, I really do. We had the exact scenario, which was just as egregious if not more so, with Nicole Beharie on Sleepy Hollow. (Black female lead, white male lead, and showrunners literally had plans to offscreen ("in purgatory") her for the second season in favor of a white love interest. Nearly killed the show; probably has in the long run, despite steps to fix it after fan outrage.  Never seen such squandering of show and chemistry potential. It wasn't just that they wanted to delay a possible romance or set up a love triangle; the showrunner was clearly smitten with his white replacement lead and NB got sidelined in everything from press events to DVD commentary tracks. It was insane and nauseating to watch.) 

 

But man, the sibling vibe here is real and having someone try to explain to you that it shouldn't feel that way doesn't change it at the gut level. I suppose it's possible that the showrunners could wallpaper over it with enough time and storyline, but yes, Iris would have to actually be part of the show called The Flash for that to happen, and I get that it's stupid that she isn't.

Edited January 29, 2016 by kieyra

[Actionmage]

but it being stated 'many' times (I assume you mean on the forums)

 

Not just the forums, but we were working off of what was stated, through dialogue, in-show.

 

But man, the sibling vibe here is real and having someone try to explain to you that it shouldn't feel that way doesn't change it at the gut level.

 

We will just have to respectfully disagree on this point.  I didn't mean to come off as trying to explain away what you see, but it has been stated clearly that Barry never thought of Iris as a sibling. The writers cram the Joe=2nd Dad so hard that it kind of blocks other things from being heard. ( Not just Iris/Barry stuff.) I see where folks are coming from. It is brought back to the writing and the crap "vision" they have had for Iris. Not enough clarity. 

[phoenics]

Nutter only directed the pilot and the second episode, so don't think he had much of anything to do with well, anything.

It's not about him directing - he was also an executive producer for a lot of the back half of season 1.

I'm not sure what definition of "lead actress" you might be using where Candice Patton would not be it for this show.

She's top billed. And when she was cast, there were several announcements that she had landed the lead role. The writers tend to forget this though.

We will just have to respectfully disagree on this point.  I didn't mean to come off as trying to explain away what you see, but it has been stated clearly that Barry never thought of Iris as a sibling. The writers cram the Joe=2nd Dad so hard that it kind of blocks other things from being heard. ( Not just Iris/Barry stuff.) I see where folks are coming from. It is brought back to the writing and the crap "vision" they have had for Iris. Not enough clarity.

This. But really when Joe does that, I just think "son in law", lol.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think I'll pull out my Justice League: New Frontier just so I can watch the wonderful love between Barry and Iris. So what if they're animated! And then that JLU episode with all the Flashes...hmm...or maybe it was just Wally and Jay and...

[phoenics]

I think I'll pull out my Justice League: New Frontier just so I can watch the wonderful love between Barry and Iris. So what if they're animated! And then that JLU episode with all the Flashes...hmm...or maybe it was just Wally and Jay and...

Wasn't that Young Justice with all of the Flashes? Barry Allen was never on JLU from what I remember?

[driedfruit]

Iris is certainly entitled to forgive her mother before she dies, but it really annoys me when people (1) decide to overlook someone's flaws/mistakes just because they're about to die or (2) try to tell other people that they have to see someone before they die. Being on your deathbed doesn't automatically negate being a jerk. Not everyone needs to see someone before they die to get closure.

 

You have the situation wrong. Iris is an extremely forgiving person (it took her a hot second to forgive Joe's 20+ years of lies). As she said herself, she would've forgiven Francine even if she wasn't on her deathbed. Wally was drag racing to pay Francine's medical bills because clearly he loves her and hasn't written her off. Iris never told him to go see her in her because she was dying, but because she knew he loved Francine and would have things to say to her that if he waited he'd never get a chance. Yeah, Francine was  a jerk, but her kids loved her despite of it. The deathbed just puts a deadline on them acting on that love, their reason for forgiving her wasn't the deathbed.

Edited January 30, 2016 by driedfruit

[GHScorpiosRule]

Wasn't that Young Justice with all of the Flashes? Barry Allen was never on JLU from what I remember?

Young Justice did have Barry, Wally, Impulse. I don't remember if Jay was there.  But Justice League Unlimited also had a Flash-centric episode that had Jay, his wife...they were all sitting at a table in a kitchen or something.

[phoenics]

Young Justice did have Barry, Wally, Impulse. I don't remember if Jay was there.  But Justice League Unlimited also had a Flash-centric episode that had Jay, his wife...they were all sitting at a table in a kitchen or something.

Uh - no it didn't. Justice League Unlimited only had Wally West's Flash. No other speedsters were on that series. Not Justice League or JLU. You really are thinking of Young Justice. That's where they had the kitchen scene with Barry, Wally, and Impulse. I think Jay was older with his wife in that scene too.

This is one of the episodes you are thinking of: http://youngjustice.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodlines

This episode had the birthday scene which I believe happened in the kitchen: http://jerome-k-moore.deviantart.com/art/YOUNG-JUSTICE-FLASH-FAMILY-2-202883675

Edited January 30, 2016 by phoenics

[rogueprinzess]

 

We will just have to respectfully disagree on this point.  I didn't mean to come off as trying to explain away what you see, but it has been stated clearly that Barry never thought of Iris as a sibling. The writers cram the Joe=2nd Dad so hard that it kind of blocks other things from being heard. ( Not just Iris/Barry stuff.) I see where folks are coming from. It is brought back to the writing and the crap "vision" they have had for Iris. Not enough clarity

 

Thank you for this. I went to Dragoncon this year and a priest, yep, and actual man of the cloth decided to ask Candice Patton if she was okay with the idea that Barry was in love with his sister since it's biblically condemned act. CP was BALLER and told him in no uncertain terms that Iris and Barry share a paternal figure and that's where it ends. They don't even look the same (her words). He was fully aware of and in contact with his bio father the entire time and never forgot his deceased mother. As far as Barry was concerned, Iris was his best friend and eventually the love of his life - never a sister. There are literally hundreds of stories out there of people who went to live with other families growing up (for various reasons; perhaps coming from an abusive household, foster care etc.) where they ended up falling in love with someone they grew up with. Fraternal feelings (especially in pre-puberty) can change to romantic ones between non-related people and there's nothing sick about that. The first half of season 1 focused more on Barry communicating that, but it fell off in the back half. Even Joe stated that he knew Barry was in love with Iris since he was a kid. Would Joe really advocate that if he thought there was even a hint of a impropriety - especially towards his daughter? 

 

Personally I think what would shift the paradigm of Iris and Barry more convincingly is if we could see Barry be "the man in the suit" with Iris. What i mean is, like in episode 1x06, when they're on the roof of Jitters and Iris is literally getting goosebumps from being near "The Flash" and Barry is confident, assertive and even flirtatious with her. Those scenes sparked because Barry had confidence in himself and didn't slip into the "nerdy, awkward guy" Iris has known for years. If we could see more of that Barry with Iris, I think the fraternal vibe would dissipate.

Edited January 30, 2016 by rogueprinzess

[zannej]

I need to watch this episode again to gather more thoughts.

Some things I can remember right now:

*Ugh. Barry is a lousy boyfriend. And I felt that the writing was demeaning to Patty. I started out finding her annoying but I admit I felt sorry for her toward the end-- but not in a good way. The actress is very good, but I felt like they just did a disservice to the character right from the get-go by making her needy and desperate. Granted, I know that infatuation can make people act stupidly-- I've seen it happen to friends and family members.

*My take on Barry not admitting to Patty that he was the Flash was because she said she would stay and he wanted her to go away so she would not be a target for Zoom. I wish he had just admitted it to her (since so many other people knew) and told her that he still wanted her to pursue her dreams and that it wasn't the right time for them because Zoom might come after her. Hell, any villain who figured out Flash liked her could come after her.

*The bits with Cisco and Harry were good.

*Why the hell did Jay have to take Caitlin to the park to show her his doppelganger only to explain that his DNA was mutated and thus was not compatible? (The ONLY explanation was contrived plotforce to have exposition about Hunter Zoloman). If he'd said he had surreptitiously snagged some DNA from Zoloman's cup or something to analyze, it might have made a difference.

*The DNA thing reminded me that they had Eobard/Wells' DNA on hand some how but it didn't show as mutated. If he'd had speedforce powers, wouldn't his DNA have been mutated as well? Or did it somehow revert back to normal when he lost connection with the speedforce? For that matter, if he lost connection, did it make him ill? I remember him falling down when his speed petered out while he was running down the hallway as Hartley escaped.

*If Eobard had previously used the thing that looked like a giant ring from the face of a watch in conjunction with a tachyon prototype, why couldn't he try that again to get back instead of needing Barry's help? I was going to say that if he knew that Barry just running fast enough next to him and shoving him through the portal might work he could try that-- but chances are that Barry wouldn't agree to do that again after he'd killed his mother.

*If Barry told Eobard "you killed my mother", then why didn't Eobard remember that? or was the RF he encountered in the past one who hadn't had quite the same conversations with him? I'm guessing that is the case since previous iteration knew that Harrison Wells and his wife lived to be older and the particle accelerator snafu happened in 2020.

*Cisco bragging to the RF about using his powers to catch him and how RF was going to be stuck there for eternity in a cell that they built together was amusing to me. He was so confident that RF wasn't going to escape and then he realized he'd screwed up when RF was let go.

*I still prefer Tom Cavanagh's version of RF.

*Barry going down to talk to Eobard without his costume was just stupid.

*I liked Wells saying he was "no one of consequence".

*When Eobard gave his reasons for hating The Flash, I wanted to see Barry pull him out of that sell and bitch-slap him multiple times at superspeed. Seriously, WTF? What kind of lame excuse is that? (ok, I know it was the actual reason in the comic books, but that was SO lame). I half-wish Barry had tried to reason with him. He could have said things like "We worked together and made a good team. You enjoyed being a hero. Let's not be enemies." Granted, this would require Barry to have a maturity level beyond what he currently has.

*I wonder what they did with Turtle's body? Speaking of which, what did they do with the bodies of other dead metahumans? Did they dump them out in public to be found? Drop them in a river? Incinerate them?

*I wonder if Caitlin bothered to do an autopsy. I think she was too wrapped up in her own drama though.

*In some ways I didn't mind that Iris wasn't told about the RF being back just because my fanwank on it was that Barry didn't want to make her even more upset when he knew that her mother was dying. So, the RF thing could wait until a better time. Of course, that might make it more upsetting to her to have not been told. Also, Barry is so self-involved that it probably didn't even occur to him to tell her because he was too busy feeling sorry for himself. There's a reason Harry and Cisco are my favorites on the show.

*Am I the only person who thought that Harry was actively trying to get Cisco to vibe him somehow? Like maybe desperately hoping Cisco would see that he was being coerced by Zoom and try to find a way to help him? Or maybe if he saw a future where Harry tried something and failed and got his ass whipped by Zoom for it, Cisco could tell him. Or even if he could get Cisco to figure out where Jesse was being held, that could help.

*I'm somewhat indifferent about the train thing just because I can understand Patty being pissed at Barry for lying to her. On the other hand, it was still kind of a dick move in some ways. She could have pulled that off in private to see if he'd show. She needed to just let it go. She's better off without Barry.

*I wonder how long it took Dr. McGee to do what Eobard wanted with the prototype. I wonder what Eobard did to kill time while she worked on it. Did he talk to her at all? Did he pass her tools and help her? Did he just sit around twiddling his thumbs and giggling evilly? Also, I wonder how pissed Tina was to have lost a second prototype to Reverse Flash.

*I was disappointed that there wasn't a meeting between Harry and Tina. And I still want to see McGee interact with Henry Allen.

 

The extended promo for the next episode looks interesting.

Edited January 31, 2016 by zannej

[rogueprinzess]

 

Ugh. Barry is a lousy boyfriend. And I felt that the writing was demeaning to Patty. I started out finding her annoying but I admit I felt sorry for her toward the end-- but not in a good way. The actress is very good, but I felt like they just did a disservice to the character right from the get-go by making her needy and desperate. Granted, I know that infatuation can make people act stupidly-- I've seen it happen to friends and family members.

 

That's what made the whole Barry/Patty thing especially sad. It did nothing for either character. If Barry had learned how to be a better partner, something that would/could help him when he finally does get with his OTL.  Or if Patty had learned that her dream was the most important thing for her right now, it could have made that relationship worth it but as it stands, it was really just an exercise in poor behaviour. 

[Ruby25]

Are we supposed to think Barry was really in love with Patty then? He sure didn't act like it. And what a weird way to say it, if that's what he was saying. Or was he saying that he might have if she stayed? That was sort of strange. And he clearly didn't really want her to stick around anyway, so if we're supposed to think he loved her I'm not buying it.

[romantic idiot]

Not just the forums, but we were working off of what was stated, through dialogue, in-show.

 

We will just have to respectfully disagree on this point.  I didn't mean to come off as trying to explain away what you see, but it has been stated clearly that Barry never thought of Iris as a sibling. The writers cram the Joe=2nd Dad so hard that it kind of blocks other things from being heard. ( Not just Iris/Barry stuff.) I see where folks are coming from. It is brought back to the writing and the crap "vision" they have had for Iris. Not enough clarity. 

 

So here's a question (and I don't have any skin in the game as I ship Olicity and think she still has the best chemistry with Barry) but the question always seems to be about Barry thinking of Iris as a sibling - or not. But I would argue that it is just as possible for Iris to think of Barru as a sibling, yes?

[phoenics]

So here's a question (and I don't have any skin in the game as I ship Olicity and think she still has the best chemistry with Barry) but the question always seems to be about Barry thinking of Iris as a sibling - or not. But I would argue that it is just as possible for Iris to think of Barru as a sibling, yes?

Barry was asked point blank if Iris was his sister and he replied that she was his friend. This was waaaaaay back in S1. Barry has never thought of Iris as a sister. I don't really think Iris has thought of Barry as her brother either. Neither of them have said that. Iris phrased it as "kinda like brother and sister, but we're NOT brother and sister" in the pilot and in every other instance she refers to him as her best friend and he her.

The show pushes the Joe/Barry father/son dynamic, but in my head I just see "father in law" (lol). And with Barry and Iris, they don't see each other as siblings. Clearly Barry doesn't see Iris as his sister.

It's also very interesting to see all of the comments about the "sibling" stuff now that Patty is definitely gone. At least much of the vitriolic hate leveled at Iris is gone. I guess "but they're siblings!" is all that's left as a protest?

[romantic idiot]

Eh, not sure that Patty's presence really counted as an addition to 'but they are siblings' argument really - she was such a nothing. 

 

Speaking of chemistry though - I just realised the best chemistry I've seen Grant Gustin have is with Naya Rivera. I'd ship Barry & Santana in a completely train wreck sort of way. 

[phoenics]

Eh, not sure that Patty's presence really counted as an addition to 'but they are siblings' argument really - she was such a nothing.

No - it's Patty's absence that caused a resurgence in the "siblings!" argument against Westallen, once some fans realized that Iris wasn't being erased from the show (and replaced by Patty) and neither was westallen.

Edited February 1, 2016 by phoenics