S04.E10: Blood Debts

[apinknightmare]

I think I'm even more annoyed he didn't stick around because he did with Thea. Agh shame me for saying something good happened in season 3, but it was handled a lot better.

To be fair, we don't know that he didn't stick around just as long with Felicity. There's no clear indicator of when he took off. He could've left once she came out of her first surgery and he knew she was going to live but had some nerve damage.

[tarotx]

I'm so not with most of you. I enjoyed the episode. I think it was one of the better episodes of the season (and I liked chunks of most of them. The Arrow part of the Crossover is the only one I haven't rewatched). I get Oliver though. He doesn't tend to stay around and face the drama of the situations. He runs in some way. It happens nearly (every?) single time.  Even with BMD what he tells Felicity about how that was in Central city and it's ok now back in Star safe from the Drama of the moment. Not saying it's a good thing because being present is something that Oliver has to learn to do before he deserves nice things. 

 

Laurel tries to be the voice of reason with both Thea and Oliver and they both shut her down. It's so weird that she really doesn't fit in the story.

 

I liked the Thea and Anarky stuff. And I liked the Diggle&Lyla and Diggle&Andy stuff.

 

I liked the the Oliver and DD stuff and the DD and his family stuff.

 

The only thing missing was Felicity's first reactions. I actually found it bittersweet that she was still there for Oliver. To be his light is one of her "jobs" on the team. She's trying to still be that. It's going to tear her apart once she starts thinking that isn't her any more. And then when she finds out about Oliver secret keeping it's going to push her to question everything. Then the death? What she says to Oliver in the car is close to what she says to him before he goes off to fight Ra's in 3.9. But without the hope-belief in a good outcome. Felicity is broken :,(

 

I do think all of this could have been fleshed out a bit but I get a comicbook feel to what some one called Cliftsnote version.

[Chaser]

That solves the problem of where is Oliver going to live once Felicity kicks him to the curb.

 

The only thing I got out of this episode is that I ship Thea and Anarky, God help me.

 

The FF scene was good. Like, it was so weird seeing them that way, almost like they can barely tolerate each other's presence. And they sold it. It was a nice parallel to Darhk and his wife's scene. 

 

But now I need the reasonable and eloquent folks of this board to tell me that all the Laurel in this episode, and all the Oliver/Laurel in it meant nothing more than it was. Please and thank you.

Of course all the Laurel and Oliver and Laurel meant something. It set up Laurel's heroic death. It placed Laurel in the right (yes it's a hypocritical right, but it's there), but he won't appreciate it till her death.

 

But to have not even spoken to her in all the time she was going through all these surgeries? To not have checked-in or even attempted to stay updated on her condition? I'd understand if he'd done all those things and Felicity had indicated she was cool with him going after DD, but that isn't what happened. I mean, he didn't even speak to her. That's just so awful. He left her laying in a hospital, where she had to go through several surgeries and then deal with learning she'd never walk again all while being afraid Oliver wouldn't want to be with her anymore. He left her when she really needed him the most and that is the whole crux of the matter. HIS feelings and insecurities should not have been the priority for him, Felicity's should have been.

 

This is where two conflicting narratives collide. 1) Felicity got shot multiple times. She will need life-saving surgery, plus addition surgeries because she got shot multiple times. 2) Oliver is emotionally lost and he can't see Felicity because Oh-The-Pain.

 

He should be by her side because he should, but he can't because he can't. All you are left with is stupid.

[Password]

To be fair, we don't know that he didn't stick around just as long with Felicity. There's no clear indicator of when he took off. He could've left once she came out of her first surgery and he knew she was going to live but had some nerve damage.

Even so it's problematic that we didn't SEE anything. We saw his grief with Thea, near inconsolable. Here we SAW Felicity tell him she understands if he stayed away because of the accident (even though Felicity and Oliver's scenes were the best in the whole episode IMO).

Oliver was just a bit of a prat here.

[apinknightmare]

Even so it's problematic that we didn't SEE anything. We saw his grief with Thea, near inconsolable. Here we SAW Felicity tell him she understands if he stayed away because of the accident (even though Felicity and Oliver's scenes were the best in the whole episode IMO).

Oliver was just a bit of a prat here.

Not disagreeing with you about his behavior, but we were shown a lot of things with Thea that we weren't here, and nothing was really explained time-wise. And I think Thea is a different situation - he was inconsolable because he was told she was brain dead and wouldn't recover. We never got to see what he was initially told about Felicity.

[BunsenBurner]

Oliver, Thea, Laurel and Diggle all saw DD's wife and child, will they remember her when she decides to run for office?

Edited January 21, 2016 by BunsenBurner

[wonderwall]

I think the main disappointment of this episode for me is that this wasn't a Felicity/Diggle/Oliver centric episode where we got to see their reactions and deal with felicity's injury/state. There were a lot of Thea/Anarky scenes that were weirdly shoved into the episode for some reason. And again, I also blame the useless flashbacks. Time is always an issue with Arrow. Unfortunately, usually the writers pick the wrong things to focus on.

[lemotomato]

Bad things:

3. I'm with everyone else that the pacing of this episode seemed somehow off. It's possible that I've just been trained by television to expect more hospital scenes, and I figured that with the return of the news reporters to the field, so to speak, in episode 409, we'd have the standard scenes of the press wanting to know how Ms. Smoak was doing, especially since last I checked, she does in theory run a major company and was attacked by lots of guns - the sort of thing that tends to draw press attention. And yet we didn't get any of this.  What we did get were Laurel's Getting Judgmental, Thea's Dating Crisis, and flashback scenes that not only seemed to have nothing to do with the rest of the show, not even mirroring the current timeline, as they generally do, but seemed to flat out contradict previous scenes on Arrow.

Great review as always, Quarks. This part in particular reminded that there were set reports a couple months ago about Willa Holland filming scenes outside a hospital with a crowd of what were assumed to be reporters. So maybe there's a deleted scene about the press asking about Felicity.

 

But to have not even spoken to her in all the time she was going through all these surgeries? To not have checked-in or even attempted to stay updated on her condition? I'd understand if he'd done all those things and Felicity had indicated she was cool with him going after DD, but that isn't what happened. I mean, he didn't even speak to her. That's just so awful. He left her laying in a hospital, where she had to go through several surgeries and then deal with learning she'd never walk again all while being afraid Oliver wouldn't want to be with her anymore. He left her when she really needed him the most and that is the whole crux of the matter. HIS feelings and insecurities should not have been the priority for him, Felicity's should have been.

Yes, Oliver was being his typical emotionally constipated self, but that was the point? When bad stuff happens, he runs and shuts down. This time, at least, it seems like he learned not to do that any more by the end of the episode because in the second scene with Felicity, he admitted that he didn't spend nearly enough time with her and apologized. I think/hope that's supposed to indicate that he's going to be 100% supportive of her from now on.

Edited January 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[Artsda]

 

Maybe the person in the grave is Laurel.

Are we that lucky? I want the person to be Laurel. lol 

 

That episode was kind of boring.  

 

Oliver should have let the family die and kill Damien. 

[BkWurm1]

I was hoping this episode would be in the way of 3x10. Exploring reactions and Felicity moving thru the stages of grief. Instead we got this.

You know things have gone wrong when you realize that season three did it better.  That fight scene in Anarky's foster parent's house was about the worst thing I've ever seen.  Nobody was selling any of the moves or emotions.  It was embarrassing. 

 

I just didn't understand the motivations of so many of the characters.  I could mostly fill in the blanks with what Oliver was doing but it's annoying to have to.  With Thea, she was walking around all depressed and I don't understand why now all of a sudden and Laurel  is suddenly being all self righteous and way more interested in using the law than she has been in years - again, why?  

 

Diggle was good but why wasn't he allowed to visit the hospital at all?  I loved what he said to Andy about Felicity but how about some show and not just tell?  I did enjoy how it seemed he was going to talk sense into Oliver when he sent Laurel away, but instead pretty much was just backing him up. 

 

Anarky was irritating but I'm more annoyed that after all that anger and desperation to get to DD, Oliver had ZERO plans one he found him.  Apparently he's was going to be able to take him down because this time he really, really wanted it?  I am glad that his failure seemed to prove that him not holding back was just as ineffective as him holding back. 

 

I normally really enjoy Thea but again, I have no idea why Thea was thinking anything she did and I want to. If I was Alex, I'd be slowly backing away.  This chick has all the sign of being really unstable.   

I'm annoyed that Laurel botched what could have been an interesting scene when she found out about Donna and her dad but really, I got just about zero emotion or reaction from her so that was annoying. 

Donna was good. (And she wasn't making out with Lance, she was sitting on the bed and he was comforting her.  No kissing involved. )  Her scene with Oliver was well done. Felt real.   I forgive Oliver for going back out since Felicity was in recovery so not awake.  Still, she has to be so confused why Felicity isn't more upset.

 

As to that, I have to wonder if she had in the back of her mind as long as they didn't talk, the engagement wasn't over.  Just a sad thought.  Mostly I think she just understood what Oliver was going through and she was so certain when going into her surgery that everything would be fine, she very likely didn't NEED him to be there. 

 

Still, at this point, they were starting to take Felicity's strength for granted and I see signs of more of that in the preview. 

If the woman says she's not ready, leave her BE! It's incredibly stressful to do what they do and readjusting to her new normal has to suck up most of her coping skills. I would have said going back to active team duty even 4 months later would be pushing it but it seems more like they expect her back just a few weeks later.

  (Hope they spell out the timeline) 

The little bit of interaction we got between Oliver and Felicity was wonderful.  Her easy forgiveness for his absence was so incredibly kind.  She would be so allowed to be mad but she's not worried about that.  I freely admit it.  I was crying during both their hospital scenes.  The very understated way she brought up maybe him needing to walk away from them and her permission even though you know it would break her heart.  Oliver's comment about the nurse taking off the ring.  "How dare she."  Oliver saying "For better for worse" like they were marriage vows.  Just gutted me.  Then when he comes back and basically wants to whisk them away from this life, but again it's Felicity that knows they aren't done yet.   Just gorgeous stuff.

 

Which made the back of the limo so painful.  The cold, distant ache was palpable.  It is so wrong. 

 

I did find myself smirking over the thought that anyone can ever say that Felicity is too much a pacifist to ever fit with Oliver.  He already knows what he is going to do, but had there been any doubt, he would have been getting his marching orders very quickly. 

[wonderwall]

kudos to Stephen and Emily this episode though... You know their chemistry is off the charts amazing when in one scene they can look so in love but in another, be so distant and cold (that it felt incredibly wrong) 

 

Extremely well acted.

[looptab]

Read Quark's post right above yours

I saw it after posting. That was helpful! :)

 

Of course all the Laurel and Oliver and Laurel meant something. It set up Laurel's heroic death. It placed Laurel in the right (yes it's a hypocritical right, but it's there), but he won't appreciate it till her death.

 

I do like you way of thinking!

[HighHopes]

Not disagreeing with you about his behavior, but we were shown a lot of things with Thea that we weren't here, and nothing was really explained time-wise. And I think Thea is a different situation - he was inconsolable because he was told she was brain dead and wouldn't recover. We never got to see what he was initially told about Felicity.

We did see him get told that she will never walk again though. Which lead to him asking to see her but then immediately going after the bad guy instead. 

[quarks]

Donna and Quentin weren't having hospital sex. He was rubbing her back while she cried about Felicity. 

 

Ah, ok. The glowing tattoos really distracted me this episode. 

[tarotx]

I think there is also an interesting comparison to the Limo with the Darhks and the FF Limo with "the Queens". 

Edited January 21, 2016 by tarotx

[GirlvsTV]

Yes, Oliver was being his typical emotionally constipated self, but that was the point? When bad stuff happens, he runs and shuts down. This time, at least, it seems like he learned not to do that any more by the end of the episode because in the second scene with Felicity, he admitted that he didn't spend nearly enough time with her and apologized. I think/hope that's supposed to indicate that he's going to be 100% supportive of her from now on.

Except he didn't have a problem sticking with Thea last year. It's just, for me, that excuse doesn't wash. At the end of the day, I don't care if he 'learned' anything because it doesn't change the fact that he left her in the first place.

If you had told me earlier this season (or even in season 2) that Felicity would be seriously hurt and Oliver would leave her, not speak to her or even check-up on her at all I never would have believed it. The fact that he did so, coupled with the Baby Mama stupidity is really undermining my belief and enjoyment in their relationship. Oliver got to mess up and screw around with Felicity's feelings last year. This year was his second chance and he's pretty much blown it.

Edited January 21, 2016 by GirlvsTV

[apinknightmare]

We did see him get told that she will never walk again though. Which lead to him asking to see her but then immediately going after the bad guy instead.

Like I wrote in the reply you quoted, I'm not saying he didn't behave badly. But I don't think there's any point to comparing how he reacted to being told his sister was brain dead with no hope of recovery to being told Felicity's spinal cord was permanently damaged.

He left Thea's bedside, too, once he had a target to go after.

Edited January 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

I think there is also an interesting comparison to the Limo with the Darhks and the FF Limo with "the Queens". 

Agreed. Felicity there looked awfully similar to Mrs.Darhk, in her attitude towards Oliver.

[way2interested]

I think there is also an interesting comparison to the Limo with the Darhks and the FF Limo with "the Queens".

That's like the second thing that crossed my mind when watching the scene again, with the parallel between both Lady Darhk and Felicity telling Oliver and Darhk to " kill him." No one's mentioned it I believe, but I wonder if they are going to set up any parallel between them as 4b continues? Like the evil couple versus the shaky but good-guy couple.

[Velocity23]

And then today there is an interview with Emily where she states that Felicity and Laurel are friends. This is too precious.

[statsgirl]

Show, don't tell.  We needed to see Laurel react to Felicity's situation.

Second, Arrow, uh, make up your mind about this damn prison! Who built it? ARGUS? The Chinese?

I got the impression that there were two prisons, one above ground that the Chinese built and Fyers used, and one secret one way below ground that belongs to ARGUS.

 

When they locked up Slade at the end of s2, the prison doors had Advanced Research Group United Support printed on them.  If it were the prison Oliver was put in in this episode, you'd think he would have noticed.

 

.I normally really enjoy Thea but again, I have no idea why Thea was thinking anything she did and I want to. If I was Alex, I'd be slowly backing away.  This chick has all the sign of being really unstable.

I missed that but you're right, between the rage and the pushing away/pulling him in, she's a very bad bet for a relationship.

 

But of course this is happening so that

there is maximum angst when Roy returns

. Or maybe Alex really is working with Darhk.

[Chaser]

I think there is also an interesting comparison to the Limo with the Darhks and the FF Limo with "the Queens". 

 

That's like the second thing that crossed my mind when watching the scene again, with the parallel between both Lady Darhk and Felicity telling Oliver and Darhk to " kill him." No one's mentioned it I believe, but I wonder if they are going to set up any parallel between them as 4b continues? Like the evil couple versus the shaky but good-guy couple.

Officially looking forward to Felicity and Lady Darhk meeting. 

[quarks]

I'm so not with most of you. I enjoyed the episode. I think it was one of the better episodes of the season (and I liked chunks of most of them. The Arrow part of the Crossover is the only one I haven't rewatched). 

 

 

Just to clarify, despite my epic rant, I did enjoy the episode. The only thing that really irritated me was the "oh, yes, this Chinese prison HAS been here all along let's not ask why Fyers didn't use it in the first season" and the glowing tattoo. 

 

I have some theories about what's gone wrong with the flashbacks, and I sympathize - it's not easy to replot after other factors have forced you to deviate from your original plans, especially when you're fairly tied into an ending. But at the same time, that's exactly why the Arrow writers needed to sit down and block out everything, and check it against previous seasons, rather than doing what they are doing, which seems to be an "ok, so, the last writer left Oliver here, so I'll take it up from there and what scar haven't we explained yet?" sort of thing. I thought the flashbacks were one of the strongest parts of the first season, still fun the second season, and at least progressing Oliver's journey if in a thoroughly confusing way the third season. But this season they're breaking continuity and not telling a compelling story, in a season that other than the flashbacks, has generally been an improvement, in my opinion, over the previous season.

 

And I also have to give the episode full kudos for leaving everyone still MORE confused about who's in the grave :)

[tarotx]

Mind you when I say I enjoyed the episode I was talking present day. The Flashbacks are so something I want to fast forward through....

[Guest]

You know, the structure of this episode was all over the place. It was weird, like the characters were a bit aimless? There was lots of different story arcs and scenes happening but it felt like nothing much happened, or was achieved. I'm choosing to believe this was intentional because that's how they'd be without Felicity. LOL.

[hogwash]

I think Laurel said Thea's name in front of Machin. That was dumb. What was her motivation for turning in Machin? She kept her sister chained up in her apt basement and helped the Team capture Andy for information/deprogramming. But Oliver with Machin is where she draws the line? 

 

I don't like that there was 3 separate freaking sequences where they found a lead/location, suited up to check out the lead/location, then walked up to the random lead/location. With Thea's issues and Laurel's "objections", there were the great opportunities to have a mask opt out so those 3(!!!) sequences were less repetitive/boring. Have someone go for a different approach or whatever. I'll take anything. These action scenes suck. 

 

Oliver and Darhk running into each other outside of his house was very funny to me. Is this the 5th time Darhk has almost murdered Oliver? 

[BkWurm1]

But now I need the reasonable and eloquent folks of this board to tell me that all the Laurel in this episode, and all the Oliver/Laurel in it meant nothing more than it was. Please and thank you.

 

If they were trying to make Oliver and Laurel in this episode mean something, they would have allowed Oliver to break down in front of her or lean on her or have him listen to her advice. At the very least they would have teamed up out in the field. Instead he ignored her, she went behind his back, he sniped at her then basically told her my way or the highway. And neither made nice with each other later on.  It's not banter when they disagree.  There's nothing playful or fun.  It's not so irritated I'm turned on, it's just irritation and this person doesn't get it and is in my way.  There's no softness so I have no worries.

 

 

 

But to have not even spoken to her in all the time she was going through all these surgeries? To not have checked-in or even attempted to stay updated on her condition? I'd understand if he'd done all those things and Felicity had indicated she was cool with him going after DD, but that isn't what happened. I mean, he didn't even speak to her. That's just so awful. He left her laying in a hospital, where she had to go through several surgeries and then deal with learning she'd never walk again all while being afraid Oliver wouldn't want to be with her anymore. He left her when she really needed him the most and that is the whole crux of the matter. HIS feelings and insecurities should not have been the priority for him, Felicity's should have been.

The episode was unclear but by the time she was going in for another surgery, there was a substantial time jump.  I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd said a couple weeks had gone by.  (Hence why no interest from the press, the story died down long ago).  I would have really liked to see it, but I have no doubt that Felicity saw Oliver when she first woke up and he likely was there when the extent of her injuries where first known and early plans were made for surgeries.   We know that she'd already gone through other surgeries so yeah, I can see him taking another one for granted. 

 

I am glad thought that he felt he needed to make up being gone to Felicity, but I can only accept that he was gone more recently.  Felicity would not have reacted to getting flowers instead of Oliver with a smile if she'd not seen him at all. 

 

It is awful that she had to get the news of not walking probably only from her mom but oddly enough, that might have been a relief to Felicity, being able to get her head wrapped around it before she had to worry about the implications to anyone else.  

 

I hate that I can already hear in my head the dialogue of their break up.  You just know the phrase for better or worse will be worked in (Or a variation of their conversation in Dark Waters about facing problems together)  with her pointing out the sentiment is useless if Oliver instead decides to exclude her from a major part of his life.  How can they face life together, for better or worse when he refuses to even let her know what obstacle they face? 

[lemotomato]

Except he didn't have a problem sticking with Thea last year. It's just, for me, that excuse doesn't wash. At the end of the day, I don't care if he 'learned' anything because it doesn't change the fact that he left her in the first place.

If you had told me earlier this season (or even in season 2) that Felicity would be seriously hurt and Oliver would leave her, not speak to her or even check-up on her at all I never would have believed it. The fact that he did so, coupled with the Baby Mama stupidity is really undermining my belief and enjoyment in their relationship. Oliver got to mess up and screw around with Felicity's feelings last year. This year was his second chance and he's pretty much blown it.

Thea was in the hospital for maybe a couple hours. Felicity's been there for days, probably, since she's had multiple surgeries. I'm not defending his behavior, but comparing how long he stayed at their bedsides is not a fair comparison.

 

Oliver ran away to Lian Yu when his best friend died. He didn't show up for his mother's funeral, abandoning Thea who had just watched her mother get murdered in front of her to give himself up to Slade, thinking that he was also going to get killed basically leaving Thea with no brother too. He immediately went into hunt-down-the-killer mode when Sara was killed. I have no doubt he loves Felicity, but we've been shown again and again that this is how he copes. It's selfish and unhealthy, but it seems like this time, he's acknowledged that it's wrong instead of defending it (Mr. "If I grieve, no one else gets to."). So we'll have to disagree that his not being there for Felicity is out of the norm for him. I also think that relationships, like life, are about making mistakes and learning from them, not a "three strikes and you're out" system, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited January 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[Happy Harpy]

Wow, there's worse than Team Arrowless. There's Not-Team Arrow, the one without Felicity.

 

If this episode was a glimpse at how the show would have been if Laurel had stayed the leading lady (in screentime at least) and had been an integral part of Oliver's team from the get go, everyone making a living out of Arrow should imo have a grateful thought for Felicity Smoak's creation every night before going to bed.

Laurel's power isn't the Canary Cry, it's the Eeyore Cloud, that changes every scene watchable on paper into a complete snoozefest.

 

And boy, was this one a huge snoozefest imo, with a few gems lost in it.

Felicity was strong, so strong, so great and she shone. This is the Felicity I want to see...but with more screentime.

Oliver/Felicity still have it, their scenes just pop and work effortlessly for me. The feels are there.

Lyla was strong, Diggle/Lyla still have it. She gets him, and you understand why those two are married and can work.

I loved that Diggle would go to any length for Felicity, that she's his little sister and his priority even before Andy. But hey, would it kill anyone to give me a freaking scene between those two? Seriously, are kittens going to die if Diggle and Felicity, or Diggle/Felicity/Oliver have just one fucking scene together during an episode?

(Their absence isn't going to make me drink the Laurel Kool-Aid, if it's the point. On the opposite, it's just making me notice how poorer the general chemistry is with her.)

Donna, Donna, Donna. I think that never Oliver keeping a secret about his identity as Green Arrow was better used than with her. I think she could understand him going after those who did this to her daughter instead of being by her side, at least partly, but here she doesn't get it and he can't tell her and it did affect her vision of him.

 

Love Thea, but she is wasted on inferior characters imo like Laurel or Anarky or even Alex, who is nice but sooo bland. Thea was so much better interacting with Roy, with Sin, with her mother, with Walter. She has better chemistry with Diggle than Laurel imo, so why not exploit it? Why doesn't she have more scenes with Felicity? (I know, Thea is on the island this year)

 

I feel sorry for every actor involved in the flashbacks, especially S.Amell because for the little I saw in-between fast-forwarding, he didn't check out and isn't phoning it. But when I compare the first time Oliver was tortured on the island -me: horrified, but unable to stop watching between my hands covering my face- and this time -me: so gratuitous, so tacky, I don't even care- I think there's something very wrong.

 

Donna and Quentin weren't having hospital sex. He was rubbing her back while she cried about Felicity. 

Thank you! That's what I saw. I would have appreciated a scene between them, where Quentin could share with her how it is to lose a daughter and comfort her because he would understand. It isn't as if there weren't lots of unnecessary stuff in this episode that couldn't be replaced, imo.

 

And now, after the grave mindfuckery, the breakup mindfuckery. O/F is pretty much what saves the show for now, at least for me, so destroying them is such a good, lovely idea, and such a novelty after S3! I'm sure people are going to tune in in droves at such a pleasant perspective.

Oops, was that too sarcastic?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[HighHopes]

If Oliver had visited Felicity and talked to her before, then wouldn't she have gotten the ring back then? She said something about how Oliver not visiting her made her start to worry that he didn't want to be with her anymore. Again, if had visited her or talked to her when she was awake the first time she probably wouldn't be thinking that.

Oliver also had to find out from Thea that she was out of surgery, which makes me think that he was avoiding all hospital/Felicity related things.

My take from the episode was that aside from bringing her to the hospital he never went again until that first scene we saw. And part of Oliver "evolving" this season should include him realizing that there are three other people who can watch over the city and go after the guys while he sits with his fiancée while she goes through multiple surgeries.

[GirlvsTV]

I also think that relationships, like life, are about making mistakes and learning from them, not a "three strikes and you're out" system, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If this were any other show, I'd totally be down with him making some mistakes and learning and growing from that experience. I'd eat it up with a spoon.

But this is Arrow. I have no confidence the writers will actually have the lesson 'stick' since they get such great mileage out of Oliver regressing over and over again in the exact same ways. And when that happens all the stuff we went through with Oliver as he was learning those lessons becomes pointless. So, to me, Felicity laying in the hospital and worrying that Oliver didn't want to be with her anymore isn't worth Oliver learning a lesson that will probably only last as long as the writers need it to.

Also, nowhere in my post did I say I thought relationships operated on a 3 strikes system. To clarify: the second chance I was referring to was for me, as a viewer and supporter of the Oliver/Felicity relationship, to be able to believe Oliver could really put aside his stupidity and be a good partner for Felicity. And, for me, he's totally blown it with the stuff tonight and BM secret.

Edited January 21, 2016 by GirlvsTV

[lemotomato]

If this were any other show, I'd totally be down with him making some mistakes and learning and growing from that experience. I'd eat it up with a spoon.

But this is Arrow. I have no confidence the writers will actually have the lesson 'stick' since they get such great mileage out of Oliver regressing over and over again in the exact same ways. And when that happens all the stuff we went through with Oliver as he was learning those lessons becomes pointless. So, to me, Felicity laying in the hospital and worrying that Oliver didn't want to be with her anymore isn't worth Oliver learning a lesson that will probably only last as long as the writers need it to.

Also, nowhere in my post did I say I thought relationships operated on a 3 strikes system. To clarify: the second chance I was referring to was for me, as a viewer and supporter of the Oliver/Felicity relationship, to be able to believe Oliver could really put aside his stupidity and be a good partner for Felicity. And, for me, he's totally blown it with the stuff tonight and BM secret.

I misread that part, I'm sorry. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the other stuff.

[apinknightmare]

If Oliver had visited Felicity and talked to her before, then wouldn't she have gotten the ring back then? She said something about how Oliver not visiting her made her start to worry that he didn't want to be with her anymore. Again, if had visited her or talked to her when she was awake the first time she probably wouldn't be thinking that.

She was worried he hadn't stopped by because she was paralyzed, which was something she had only just found out after her last surgery. Who knows when he'd seen her prior? She could've been awake, she could've been in recovery, she could've been in her room and sleeping it off.

Seems like the show was purposely vague.

And as for hanging onto the ring, I hope he takes it with him if/when he goes home, because it's not a good idea for her to wear something so valuable that could so easily get taken off and lost (or stolen) there.

[bijoux]

You know, the Queen siblings may have just let the villains walk away, but at least people found Anarky's foster parents and made sure they received proper medical attention.

 

Oh, wait.

[Starfish35]

I mostly enjoyed it. But....

It really kind of felt like it should have been two episodes, and we totally missed the first one. Just skipping over 95% of all the hospital drama really felt like a cheat. And while I understand Felicity's reaction on one level, on another I cannot help but think that if it had been me in that hospital bed, I would have been quite a bit more upset about my fiancé not being there for me.

I'm really getting tired of Oliver constantly getting his ass handed to him. Anarchy should not have been able to beat him and Thea together.

I see Laurel is back to her self-righteous hypocritical self. Missed ya Laurel! Oh wait..... And isn't it great to see Oliver and Laurel back to their normal interactions? Just like old times. /sigh

I was disturbed by Diggle beating his brother. I don't know why that bothered me more than most of the things Oliver has done, but it did. I guess because it's his brother.

Still hate the flashbacks. :(

Who's in the grave! Here we go again! Nice of them to eliminate Felicity.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

I appreciated Thea being at her bedside, though. And calling out her brother. Maybe they still didn't say a word to each other, but that's progress!

[wonderwall]

LAURELBOT HAS POWERED DOWN lmao Also Oliver swivelling Felicity's chair is a nice touch

 

[looptab]

LAURELBOT HAS POWERED DOWN lmao Also Oliver swivelling Felicity's chair is a nice touch

 

LOL..was it me or did she not cross her arms even once, this episode???

Edited January 21, 2016 by looptab

[lemotomato]

LOL..was it me or did she not cross her arms even once, this episode???

There she goes!

Edited January 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[bijoux]

She also did in on TV when Machin was apprehended. I remember because it made me laugh.

[Starfish35]

Lol ok so I usually try not to go there, but did it seem like KC really had a hard time spitting her line out after Oliver said something about Felicity being the strongest person he knows? Ouch.

[looptab]

There she goes!

Damn, I missed that!Haha, but seriously, while she went around telling people what to do, I was mostly impressed with the non-arms-crossing. :D

[wonderwall]

Lol ok so I usually try not to go there, but did it seem like KC really had a hard time spitting her line out after Oliver said something about Felicity being the strongest person he knows? Ouch.

It fills me with so much grinch like glee tbh :P

[SleepDeprived]

Damn. This board. When it comes to that odd show within this show, That's So Laurel, I feel like I can always trust all of you to be ready with those receipts! Hee.

[bijoux]

Does Anarky have DD's magic box then? The armoire was empty save for the sign when Oliver opened it, wasn't it?

[SleepDeprived]

I don't think the magic box was in the armoire. Darhk sent off the magic box to the H.I.V.E. scientists to be tested on using the dwarf star alloy particles Palmer left behind when he was a Cheeto. I think it was that weird totem/statue that he chanted to/made blood offerings on that was in the armoire.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SleepDeprived

[bijoux]

Another thing I didn't like was the opening of the episode. It was so anticlimactic. We never got to see any of their reactions to the news Felicity was hurt. We just jumped straight into the hunting down of DD. I kind of wanted to see everyone rush to see what had happened. 

 

I really disliked how the ER scenes were intercut with Oliver fighting since I felt it robbed both scenarios of the emotional impact.

 

I don't think the magic box was in the armoire. Darhk sent off the magic box to the H.I.V.E. scientists to be tested on using the dwarf star alloy particles Palmer left behind when he was a Cheeto. I think it was that weird totem/statue that he chanted to/made blood offerings on that was in the armoire.

I honestly have no recollection of this at all. Thanks.

[hogwash]

They would have Laurel call Oliver out in the one freaking situation where he has the moral high ground. Dumb. Oliver started getting concerned when he saw Thea being a little too aggressive in just one fight. He actually gave a crap when he saw his baby sister going off the rails because of his selfish decision. He took responsibility for Thea's bloodlust, made sure the team knew and actively tried to keep her from murdering people. Laurel should've been on board. Going outside the law for personal vendettas has been her go-to move since S02. No more moral center Laurel. Please and thanks.

[millennium]

Gee, another Batman villain going up against Arrow.   At least the Arrow creative team is consistent in its mediocrity/lack of original ideas.

[looptab]

Reflecting some more on the new FF, Felicity demanding that Oliver kill is huge. It's different from when she asked him to kill Ra's al Ghul, because then, she was asking him to kill in order to save himself. Here, she seems pretty much hellbent on revenge for the person that's in the grave, and, wow. This is the same person who tried with all her might to avoid that Oliver killed Slade, after Slade had murdered his mother. What I'm getting at is, I hope they don't butcher her character along the way to make this kind of shift in morals.

Edited January 21, 2016 by looptab