Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion: How's Your Head?

[cynic]

...Also, because we have so little history of Abbie's past, why does everyone think she didn't go before? She is supposed to be 27 at show start. If she went to University, she would feasibly have graduated at the age of 23 perhaps (I see Abbie - since she is quite intelligent, graduating younger than her peers). Maybe she decides to enroll in the FBI, but decides half-way through training, at that point in her life, it isn't for her. Maybe her mental state/stress levels. Maybe she didn't have the drive at such a young age. Maybe her rebelliousness worked against her. So she bails, ends up at SH Police department and is there for a few years. Now that she is older, a bit more mature, confident in herself. Then, the thought hits her again. Quantico. She wants to try Quanitico again. It's something that has become a passion, something she really wants.

She confides in August Corbin, who encourages her, and she decides that this time, she really wants to do this. She commits herself to this career move. So she applies and starts studying for the entrance exam again, and training and she is determined to get into Quantico and ultimately to be an FBI agent.

Then that night happens, she meets Crane and the rest is SH history.

So it's even more poignant and meaningful that Abbie decided not to attend Quantico. She was there once, left for whatever reasons, then decided that YES, this is her path and career desire, and boom, she decides against it again.

I guess I can come up with various scenarios in my head that could expand Abbie's story and give her some good meaty material. Again, teenage Abbie was in a bad place, got caught, Corbin gave her a choice. Clean up or go to jail. She went to university but assuming she went at age 18 or 19, she graduated 22 or 23. So there are FOUR unaccounted years that we have no idea of, of what she could have done. Hence the retcon. Makes sense, in a "let's make drama, introduce a cock-blocker against Crane, expand Abbie's history" sort of retcon way.

Which is why I repeat. I'll wait and see how the episodes grab me.

I know you're just spitballing here and I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how they explain it, but I just wanted to point out that there aren't that many reasonable avenues they can take and still have it make sense.

Getting into Quantico is ultra competitive and I can't imagine that Abbie would be given a second chance to go after having washed out the first time (much less a third chance after washing out and then not going the second time). Also, with limited exceptions, Quantico requires three years of full-time work experience, so it makes sense that Abbie would be going the first time in her mid to late twenties.

[HalcyonDays]

I know you're just spitballing here and I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how they explain it, but I just wanted to point out that there aren't that many reasonable avenues they can take and still have it make sense.

Getting into Quantico is ultra competitive and I can't imagine that Abbie would be given a second chance to go after having washed out the first time (much less a third chance after washing out and then not going the second time). Also, with limited exceptions, Quantico requires three years of full-time work experience, so it makes sense that Abbie would be going the first time in her mid to late twenties.

 

That's why I'm just coming up with possible scenarios. *shrug* It's not like TV shows are known for getting the facts 100% right. Just because in real life one needs 3 years of work experience, doesn't mean that in TV land, it requires that also. Also, this show messes with actual fact and history all of the time, so why stop now? That's why it doesn't diminish to me the sacrifice that Abbie makes. Deciding against Quantico/FBI is a major major decision that would be hard to make.

 

If they are retconning one semi-plausible explanation could be that her trip to the past didn't 100% reset things to exactly the way they were and some very small changes did occur.   And honestly, Abbie was changed through that travel because she met Grace and had that experience so things couldn't be 100% the same in any case.

 

Oh, I like this possibility. A lot. They probably won't go there, but that would be really interesting to explore. I mean, her meeting Ben Franklin changes the timeline slightly, as anyone who is a Star Trek or time travelling TV show watching nerd knows. Personally, I don't think the writers are doing anything that complex - but who knows.

 

But as I said - I'm really ambivalent and also apathic to this upcoming season, but last year, when I was ridiculously excited, I got disappointed really early on. So hopefully the reverse will happen this year.

 

The Extant reboot for the most part seemed for the better (well, the last couple episodes were...weird) but anyway, it could be a good thing. We simply have to watch and see!

[Amethyst]

This retcon thing is troubling, and it just brings up more questions that I don't know if they'll answer.  Why the hell would Abbie even return to SH if she actually made it all the way to Quantico in the first place?  As driven as she is, it's unlike her to leave before her training was complete.    

 

I'm not interested in this retcon at all, tbh.  It's just too confusing and screws up Abbie's motivations.  Her going to Quantico after everything in s2 made sense, but there's no need to address the early stuff again because it was properly established.  The show needs to move forward, not introduce more unnecessary wrinkles about the past.

 

It would have just made more sense if Abbie and Reynolds had met before she went to Quantico and had their fling, then Reynolds left and Abbie decided to stay in SH after everything went down.  Even if they have a good reasoning behind it, this retcon implies that the new writers didn't do their homework on the basic foundation of the show, and that is not starting off on a good foot.

[BestestAuntEver]

It would have just made more sense if Abbie and Reynolds had met before she went to Quantico and had their fling, then Reynolds left and Abbie decided to stay in SH after everything went down. Even if they have a good reasoning behind it, this retcon implies that the new writers didn't do their homework on the basic foundation of the show, and that is not starting off on a good foot.

ITA, that the retcon causes wrinkles. The problem with the above is Abbie was involved with Luke prior to leaving for Quantico. I can't see her having a fling while involved with Luke.

Right now all I see is, they are turning a previous believed storyline into a pretzel in order to give Abbie a black love interest.

Edited August 31, 2015 by BestestAuntEver

[catrox14]

Oh man, I totally forgot about Luke! So yeah that makes this even more weird. How long were Abbie and Luke together?

 

Like I mentioned earlier, this can only work IMO at this point if it's an altered timeline because of the time skewing in Tempus Fugit. And then if that gets changed everything else gets changed. Sure it's a method of doing it but there was no reason to do it that I can see other than giving Abbie a potential love interest.

 

You know, this reminds me a lot of the stuff they did with Cam and Booth in Bones. And there is the crossover which makes me wonder if there is influence from the network or the writers are looking at Bones and how it handles relationships. And that does not endear me ONE IOTA if that is what they are doing.  Just an observance.

 

Now if they wanted to model a relationship that slow burned but I still cared, look no further than Mulder and Scully.  I swear the crossover should be X-Files and Sleepy Hollow, not Bones and Sleepy Hollow. 

 

Sigh.

[chaifan]

You know, this reminds me a lot of the stuff they did with Cam and Booth in Bones. And there is the crossover which makes me wonder if there is influence from the network or the writers are looking at Bones and how it handles relationships. And that does not endear me ONE IOTA if that is what they are doing.  Just an observance.

 

I agree a thousand times over.  I was an early Bones fan and was really disappointed in the direction they took the show after Brennan's pregnancy.  No one should be using that show as an example for how to handle character relationships.  I am not looking forward to the cross-over episode at all, and feel it is a shameful ploy for ratings by Bones writers, to the detriment of SH. 

 

I hope SH will not use the time jump to randomly change things.  And the reported 4 year time jump is just confusing, and will eliminate the fun "fish out of water" moments that were still enjoyable in Season 2.  I just re-watched the pilot, and Ichabod made a reference to 7 years that he and Abbie would be intertwined due to being witnesses.  So how could they just skip over 4 years?

[Watermelon]

Am I the only person who really gives not one damn about Luke? He wasn't cute, he wasn't charismatic, and wasn't he like 5'4?  

[Indi]

I thought Luke was hot as hell. Not charismatic, no, but other than Frank and Andy, there haven't been any cute charismatic men in the show. Henry as the sin eater (before his Craneness killed the character) was charismatic, but hardly hot. I hope Daniel brings some hope to the show in that regard.
 

Right now all I see is, they are turning a previous believed storyline into a pretzel in order to give Abbie a black love interest.

Nothing wrong with giving Abbie a black love interest. The problem is that messing with her time line is unnecessary and it's doing the character a lot of damage. Superficial and wishy-washy is not Abbie's character. I don't see how she would jump from SH cop to Quantico, back to cop and the wish to go back to Quantico in the span of months, and also have two love affairs in the meantime.

 

It doesn't make sense with what we learned from the characters' mouths in S1. Meh!

[catrox14]

I decided to go back and rewatch the pilot to figure out why I'm SO "grrr argh" about it the "retcon" and watching the pilot just reinforces my opinion.

 

Sidebar: Man this pilot is such a treasure. It's a wonderful episode of TV period. It totally holds up. I felt that Abbie and Ichabods basic characterizations were so well set out that I completely bought everything they were called to do.  I  The snarky lines were just gold.  "So I cut off his head. It seemed like the logical thing to do next".  /weeps quietly for what happened that ruined it.  Freaking Katrina whisper-spoke from the moment she showed up on screen. Oh if only they had killed her the first time. Tom and Nicole are just so wonderful together. They must give me more of them doing things as a team

 

Anyhoooo, that transcript from Forever Dreaming was not as reliable as it should have been. It left out this dialogue.

 

Abbie: "Told you, Quantico takes 240 people a year, only 20 get picked for Profile Management. It’s the FBI’s only feeder program."  The later Irving says "transferring to Quantico next week".  So...

 

Seemed to me she had already been accepted as an applicant as part of the feeder program and was studying for her upcoming entry into Quantico.

 

I also think she was with Luke during the time she was trying to get into the program and whilst working in the SH police department. She only broke up with him because she was going to leave for Quantico. 

 

I do think the intention was that Abbie REALLY wanted to go and that she might not get another chance. There was no indication in dialogue or the acting that this was NBD and she could reapply at any time. It's also not clear but I think Abbie was closer to 30 here than 25 but I can't find a good reference to her age.

 

So I really can't figure out anyway in our current timeline that she would have had this involvement with her new boss before the events of SH.

 

Add to that Abbie was not presented to us as a woman that would be disloyal to a steady boyfriend.

 

Just food for thought.

[HalcyonDays]

Am I the only person who really gives not one damn about Luke? He wasn't cute, he wasn't charismatic, and wasn't he like 5'4?  

Nope. You are not the only one. I could do without all of them, except Seamus Duncan (who might actually pop up again). The rest...meh.

 

Oh, except two others actually but I don't know their names. The young female cop (black lady) who came into Irving's office and interrupted Ichabbie, to mention his wife was on the line and the young male cop (asian guy) who directed someone somewhere. Those two were adorable and I wish they were re-occuring more often.

 

And the reported 4 year time jump is just confusing,

 

The time jump is not four years - its one from the end of Tempus Fugit. The four years is supposed to somehow been slotted in BEFORE Crane woke up. It's feasibly, if one doesn't think too hard about it, which the writers in the past don't think about continuity either. Happens in a lot of shows - difference is that many of us are invested nerds and we know every little detail, which is why this makes it stand out and seems wrong.

[catrox14]

 

The time jump is not four years - its one from the end of Tempus Fugit. The four years is supposed to somehow been slotted in BEFORE Crane woke up. It's feasibly, if one doesn't think too hard about it, which the writers in the past don't think about continuity either. Happens in a lot of shows - difference is that many of us are invested nerds and we know every little detail, which is why this makes it stand out and seems wrong.

 

Okay, I'm taking issue with this comment. Maybe you aren't meaning it this way but some of these replies are pretty dismissive of an entirely vaild criticism of this retcon. Just because they've blown continuity elsewhere doesn't IMO excuse doing it here. Even viewers who are not as detail oriented as others have expressed concerns over this key character point.

[HalcyonDays]

Okay, I'm taking issue with this comment. Maybe you aren't meaning it this way but some of these replies are pretty dismissive of an entirely vaild criticism of this retcon. Just because they've blown continuity elsewhere doesn't IMO excuse doing it here. Even viewers who are not as detail oriented as others have expressed concerns over this key character point.

 

Hmm.. I think I didn't express myself clearly enough. People who watch shows that they are a semi-interest in, are mostly not going to "sweat the small stuff". Like, okay, some continuity here and there - assuming they catch it. If one is not as invested nor paying much attention, these type of things go unnoticed, and if they are noticed, it usually endeavours a "whatever" reaction. As long as it entertains, then awesome.

 

If you are someone invested heavily in a character or a TV show, then these glaring discrepencies stand out so much more. A general viewer wont necessarily remember the exact words that Abbie spoke in the pilot, but those of us really invested will remember. Because it means something to us. It is important, it impacted us, it made us think and remember, feel and connect.

 

A casual viewer won't even notice the retcon, and even if they do, they'll just "meh" it. I've done it so many times with other shows I watch that I like, but am not insanely invested in. The few shows that I am really invested? I can give the writers a run for their money in terms of what exactly happened, who said what, timelines, character development, etc etc. The writers themselves have proven that they don't remember the minutae that the rest of us does.

 

Most of you here are the same. This is why a retcon such as this hits more, or bothers us more than most casual viewers. Because we are invested and because we care.

 

And fact is - it seems that you are implying that while "others shows have blown continuity" Sleepy Hollow is not allowed to. Why? Almost every other show does it. Why can't Sleepy? It's because you feel completely invested in Abbie, the other characters and the show itself. Which is why it stands out more. Sleepy is a TV show like every other TV show - it's subject to the same network rules, regulations and executive decisions that other TV shows are. It's not special, however we think it is. It is only special because we ourselves feel it to be special to us. To FOX - the only thing they care about is money. Does SH make money. Yes? Then renew. Otherwise, it's gone.

[Julia]

I have to say, I do kind of feel as if you're invalidating the perceptions of the people you disagree with about this by labelling them atypical viewers. Which, JMO, is totally in bounds as an opinion, but perhaps a bit coercive when posted by a mod.

[HalcyonDays]

I have to say, I do kind of feel as if you're invalidating the perceptions of the people you disagree with about this by labelling them atypical viewers. Which, JMO, is totally in bounds as an opinion, but perhaps a bit coercive when posted by a mod.

 

A person invested in a show is not an atypical viewer at all - especially with a show that apparently was renewed solely due to fan interactions. My comments are posted not as a mod (hence the lack of pink), but as a poster who thinks differently than others. However, I guess I must bow out of this conversation, since I do not agree with the rest of you and am offering a different perspective to the situation.

 

No worries. Looking forward to the new season. See you then.

[catrox14]

I think you might be underestimating the power of the pilot and what it setup for Abbie's characterization. It's more than 'obsessed viewers ' who are like 'WTF' based on comments I've seen here and elsewhere. I hadn't watched the pilot in like a year or more and immediately, I was like 'Wait...what". 

 

What one thinks is a 'minor detail' from the pilot I would argue is not a minor detail at all and that's why there is push back.  Just because it was in the pilot doesn't negate it's importance. I mean if they didn't set up the dynamic and motivations in the pilot I doubt it would have even lasted 5 episodes.

 

 

 

A general viewer wont necessarily remember the exact words that Abbie spoke in the pilot, but those of us really invested will remember. Because it means something to us. It is important, it impacted us, it made us think and remember, feel and connect.

 

I looked at a transcript just for the sake of discussion so I wasn't wrong in what I was recalling and to add to the discussion in a meaningful way.  But it really doesn't matter because those that couldn't recall or felt compelled to research it further did recall the general idea that this timing seemed peculiar at best.  

 

I don't think you should bow out of the conversation just because you have an opposing viewpoint. I do think characterizing viewers in a particular way seems to not allow for a casual viewer to have the same opinion as a more 'detail-oriented' viewer on a particular point from whichever side of the coin one lands

Edited August 31, 2015 by catrox14

[LeeLeePanda]

A person invested in a show is not an atypical viewer at all - especially with a show that apparently was renewed solely due to fan interactions. My comments are posted not as a mod (hence the lack of pink), but as a poster who thinks differently than others. However, I guess I must bow out of this conversation, since I do not agree with the rest of you and am offering a different perspective to the situation.

 

No worries. Looking forward to the new season. See you then.

I posted this in the unpopular opinion thread, and I hope it's ok to post here. The retcon of Abby going to Quantico doesn't bother me because I don't think pilots should be considered canon. Some much can and will change between when a pilot is shot, and when the rest of the season is shot. Plots that sound great on paper fizzle on screen. Actors availability change. A pilots point is to get the network to pick up a show, and get the attention of an audience. I'm also ok with anything from the first 6 episodes being changed. After that I start to side eye TPTB's intentions.

[cynic]

Changing stuff from the first six episodes wouldn't bother me as much if the first six episodes weren't basically some of my favorite episodes of the show. Seriously, I don't remember where exactly the cutoff is, but I loved and rewatched probably the first half of season one quite a bit, but quickly lost interest in the second half. I don't think I've finished watching the Golem episode to this day.

As for the retcon, it wouldn't be a big deal if they were changing a minor detail or one that wasn't really addressed, but Quantico was a huge character point for Abbie and was addressed throughout the pilot. I'm wary about the change, because I think it does mess with Abbie's characterization and it also seems like it will take a lot of handwaving for it to be a believable storyline...unless they go with this is a different timeline due to the Katrina shenanigans.

Regarding the opinion debate, I'm hesitant to wade in, but here I go. While many people had issues with the iron rules over at the other forums, I appreciated that the Boards on Boards rules kept the discussions centered on the show instead of on the validity of and psychology behind other posters' opinions or the characteristics of the posters themselves.

[catrox14]

I have to say that's quite a different viewpoint. I can't concur that pilots should not be considered canon. I mean at what point do you decide which episodes are canon?

[Amethyst]

Am I the only person who really gives not one damn about Luke? He wasn't cute, he wasn't charismatic, and wasn't he like 5'4?  

 

I thought Luke was poorly written.  He just a bitter ex-boyfriend who only existed to glare at Ichabod occasionally and get on Abbie's nerves.  Nicholas Gonzalez is a good actor in other things and quite attractive, but I don't miss Luke at all and I have no desire to see him return.  I don't remember the status of their relationship (were Abbie and Luke even together?), so the thing with Reynolds may not have had much impact.

 

What really puzzles me about this retcon is how unnecessary it is.  Of all the things to change, this is what they focus on?  It's such a clumsy way to introduce Reynolds at the expense of Abbie's background.  A past fling isn't going to sway me one way or the other on his character until I see how he and Abbie interact.  Although there's this nagging thought that he may have had something to do with Abbie leaving Quantico early, which really sucks.

 

I'll try to sum up this round of griping, but I honestly wonder how much thought the writers gave this idea.  All they had to do was watch the damn pilot to realize it doesn't make any sense.  

[cynic]

...

What really puzzles me about this retcon is how unnecessary it is.  Of all the things to change, this is what they focus on?  It's such a clumsy way to introduce Reynolds at the expense of Abbie's background.  A past fling isn't going to sway me one way or the other on his character until I see how he and Abbie interact.  Although there's this nagging thought that he may have had something to do with Abbie leaving Quantico early, which really sucks.

...

I'm wondering if they're doing it this way to shorthand their relationship so they don't have to spend much time building it organically. I hope that's not the case. And yeah, it's kinda redundant considering Luke and Abbie had a similar "were in a relationship and broke up due to conflicting career goals" history. Also, considering Sexy Betsy Ross apparently has some similarities to Katrina, I'm kinda wondering what the writers are doing here. 

 

Oh yeah, I didn't really care for Luke either. The actor was handsome, but not particularly charismatic and the character was dull and kinda a douche.

[catrox14]

 

And fact is - it seems that you are implying that while "others shows have blown continuity" Sleepy Hollow is not allowed to. Why? Almost every other show does it. Why can't Sleepy? It's because you feel completely invested in Abbie, the other characters and the show itself. Which is why it stands out more. Sleepy is a TV show like every other TV show - it's subject to the same network rules, regulations and executive decisions that other TV shows are. It's not special, however we think it is. It is only special because we ourselves feel it to be special to us. To FOX - the only thing they care about is money. Does SH make money. Yes? Then renew. Otherwise, it's gone.

 

responding to the bolded part.

 

I never said nor implied anything of the sort. I'm a fairly patient viewer when it comes to dorked up plot canon etc. I stuck with LOST and BSG to the end because they didn't hammer characterizations in general.  JEEBUS, I'm a Supernatural fan.  They fuck with continuity and canon all the time. And only once did I nearly throw in the towel because it really fucked with a characterization. I'm invested in characters more than story in general. I can eventually handle plot fuck ups etc as long as characterizations are not hammered or retcon'd beyond credulity. For me, this really unnecessarily mucks with Abbie's characterization.  They could have accomplished setting up this relationship in so many other better ways that make sense and don't screw with Abbie's characterization. IMO

 

 

What I am saying is  PARTICULAR piece of blown continuity changes characterization.

Edited September 1, 2015 by catrox14

[HalcyonDays]

Because I am a fucking fool messing with this show I cannot contain (because I am invested...), but please, clarify this sentence:

 

"What I am saying is  PARTICULAR piece of blown continuity changes characterization.

 

Whose blown characterization? Abbie's? Yeah, I agree. But everyone ignores that blown characterization that most don't care about because apparently it is acceptable  - they blew Crane's characterization all through season 2., But hey - he's 'crap' and no one cares...( though - almost - everyone still wants him to hook up with Abbie). The fact that THIS particular "retcon" affects Abbie is the problem. Not the retcon itself. There are a myriad of reasons why shows do these stupid rewrites/retcons/etc. But the fact that this one affects Abbie specifically, people don't like it. That is the plain fact and reason for this outrage, IMO. Give me another reason for it, and I'll regress, but that's not what I've been reading.

 

LeeLeePanda is quite right that pilots do not make series. Very true. Pilots are to engage the businessmen and get them to sign on. Once that happens, the creators have semi-free rein to do their thing and establish the show world.

 

I presented my opinions as someone who has formulated opinions based on their own viewing habits. For instance, shows I am not engaged in, I didn't catch the little nuances and shoutouts that TV shows tend to do in some cases. But the ones I cared about, the shows I cared about - dammit, I remembered everything. And I remember very little in day to day life. I cannot remember the prevous week. My memory is shit. But I remember in detail the Pilot of SH. I remember in detail certain episodes that "hit me" that I will never forget. That is what I was trying to intimate - that those episodes that truly "hit" you, you will remember. Others, not so much. But when it hits you, you remember the facts and scenarios that otherwise, are a mere blip. So those episodes that "hit you" are the ones that you remember in detail and will quote and debate "canon".

[catrox14]

Halcyon Days, respectfully, it seems like we are talking past each other here. LOL.

 

Perhaps you aren't particularly familar with my posts in general here, but I'm a big Crane fan. I watch for him and Abbie. There were tons of things that were fucked up with Crane's characterization all because of the forcing of Katrina. It happened and now with Katrina and Jeremy gone, they have to regroup with Crane but their haven't been spoilers about Crane that further muck with his characterization aside from a probable romance in the past with Betsy Ross.  I already rolled my eyes at that one here too.

 

But since this is the spoiler discussion thread and this is a new spoiler about Abbie, I'm discussing it. If something new and crappy comes up about Crane beyond his already messed up characterization I'll happily complain about that too, if I think the spoiler is mucking with things. If I hear a spoiler that seems intriguing, I'll talk about that. But for now AFAIK this is all we are getting.  Hence the conversations. That's what I mean regarding "PARTICULAR". 

 

 We still seem to be coming back the main point of contention whether this is a 'detail' or "minutae" from a pilot that shouldn't be considered "canon".  To me, if it's been on the air, and is a more or less significant character point it should be considered canon. To me saying pilots are only good for setup but shouldn't be considered canon to the story doesn't resonate with me especially in a show that had only 13 episodes to begin with. Now that doesn't mean and I am in no way saying it can't change with good explanation and for me this is not a good retcon. This doesn't make sense for the story or for Abbie. But at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.   

 

Hope that clarifies my viewpoint.

[LeeLeePanda]

Halcyon Days, respectfully, it seems like we are talking past each other here. LOL.

 

Perhaps you aren't particularly familar with my posts in general here, but I'm a big Crane fan. I watch for him and Abbie. There were tons of things that were fucked up with Crane's characterization all because of the forcing of Katrina. It happened and now with Katrina and Jeremy gone, they have to regroup with Crane but their haven't been spoilers about Crane that further muck with his characterization aside from a probable romance in the past with Betsy Ross.  I already rolled my eyes at that one here too.

 

But since this is the spoiler discussion thread and this is a new spoiler about Abbie, I'm discussing it. If something new and crappy comes up about Crane beyond his already messed up characterization I'll happily complain about that too, if I think the spoiler is mucking with things. If I hear a spoiler that seems intriguing, I'll talk about that. But for now AFAIK this is all we are getting.  Hence the conversations. That's what I mean regarding "PARTICULAR". 

 

 We still seem to be coming back the main point of contention whether this is a 'detail' or "minutae" from a pilot that shouldn't be considered "canon".  To me, if it's been on the air, and is a more or less significant character point it should be considered canon. To me saying pilots are only good for setup but shouldn't be considered canon to the story doesn't resonate with me especially in a show that had only 13 episodes to begin with. Now that doesn't mean and I am in no way saying it can't change with good explanation and for me this is not a good retcon. This doesn't make sense for the story or for Abbie. But at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.   

 

Hope that clarifies my viewpoint.

Perhaps I should clarify. I guess I shouldn't say that pilots shouldn't be considered canon. I just don't have a problem with things that happen in the pilot being retconned because I know that things change from pilot to second episode. I like to give the 6 episode lee way because that's usually how long it takes a tv show to get a full season order. I'll admit that the tone of Sleepy Hollow didn't change much from the pilot to season 1 finale. But if retconning something from the pilot is what we need to get back track for season 3, I'll gladly ignore it and suspend my disbelief. And I say that as an Ichabbie shipper whoes hopping for some action this season.

[Indi]

But everyone ignores that blown characterization that most don't care about because apparently it is acceptable  - they blew Crane's characterization all through season 2.

I disagree with this. S2 Ichy was consistent with S1 Ichy. His behavior was exactly the same. He only had his Beloved Epic Love Of His Life, to make it absolutely clear to a larger portion of the audience, how shitty and whiny he is. The second half of S1 was more than enough for me. I'd argue that S2 tried to retcon characterization for the best in the finale, with him and Abbie in the past. The hero in the battlefield, him siding with Abbie against Katrina... so out of character!

 

But the fact that this one affects Abbie specifically, people don't like it. That is the plain fact and reason for this outrage, IMO.

 

And I think that's more than good enough reason, since this show seems incapable of doing Abbie good. From sidelining her, to treating her like Ichy's sidekick and servant, to ignore her existence, when she's not in the Golden Boy's company, to this mess.

 

( though - almost - everyone still wants him to hook up with Abbie)

That baffles me, but maybe it's not everyone, just some of really invested fans. A general viewer wouldn't necessarily ship them or they might even be against them as a couple.

 

LeeLeePanda is quite right that pilots do not make series. Very true. Pilots are to engage the businessmen and get them to sign on. Once that happens, the creators have semi-free rein to do their thing and establish the show world.

 

That may be true sometimes, but, again, Abbie sacrificing her dreams to fight alongside Ichy was key to her characterization, since she doesn't have the benefit of flashbacks, like Ichy does. Anyway, Quantico and her relationship with Luke, though mentioned vaguely, was a continuous plot point during the first half of the season, not just the pilot.

[cynic]

I'm not a fan of the spoiler and I like both Abbie and Ichabod. But then, I'm easy. I even liked Hawley. I wish we had been able to keep him. At least we're getting Joe, but Matt Barr was so so pretty and I actually liked his character when he wasn't usurping Jenny's role and wasn't being written as a douche.("I didn't know you guys liked to party!" Ugh)

Anyway, someone on another board posted that Quantico has a 10-week academy training program for law enforcement. It's not FBI agent training, but specialized training for regular LEO's, so she would have attended and then returned home to SH. Here's hoping that that Abbie met Lance during this instead of them creating some scenario where Abbie dropped out of the FBI.

Edited September 1, 2015 by cynic

[Yolapukka]

 

Quantico has a 10-week academy training program for law enforcement. It's not FBI agent training, but specialized training for regular LEO's, so she would have attended and then returned home to SH. Here's hoping that that Abbie met Lance during this instead of them creating some scenario where Abbie dropped out of the FBI.

 

I like this idea. I don't care so much when a show tinkers with canon if they do it well but in most cases it's lazy writing instead. I have no problem with a well-contructed ret-con, I have problems with short-cuts and handwaves, because they don't bode well for future writing and mostly because they aren't necessary with a little research and imagination, which are surely things a good writer has in their toolkit. If they use these entirely credible circumstances to fit Abbies' past with Reynolds into the existing narrative they've made a good move, as opposed to throwing out established character beats.

 

Even if they take a stupid, unimaginative route to putting Reynolds on a personal as well as professional footing with Abbie, I'll still be happy with it if it's entertaining, if it has charm and substance as opposed to simply bringing on a character through ill-considered contrivances just to give Ichabod stink-eye and disapprove of Abbie while grumping about bygones. That's not very interesting to me. If they make the effort to fit Reynolds into the existing framework, it bodes better for the future of the character because it shows they are taking care to make him work.

Edited September 1, 2015 by yuggapukka

[cynic]

The more I think about it, the more I like the academy idea. The program is highly selective and you need to be nominated for it, so I would love it if Corbin had been instrumental in getting Abbie in as she showed prowess in law enforcement and potential for advancement. And her exposure to the FBI through the program could be why she was so eager to go to Quantico. 

[phoenics]

I'm not a fan of the spoiler and I like both Abbie and Ichabod. But then, I'm easy. I even liked Hawley. I wish we had been able to keep him. At least we're getting Joe, but Matt Barr was so so pretty and I actually liked his character when he wasn't usurping Jenny's role and wasn't being written as a douche.("I didn't know you guys liked to party!" Ugh)

Anyway, someone on another board posted that Quantico has a 10-week academy training program for law enforcement. It's not FBI agent training, but specialized training for regular LEO's, so she would have attended and then returned home to SH. Here's hoping that that Abbie met Lance during this instead of them creating some scenario where Abbie dropped out of the FBI.

 

I was waiting for something like this.

 

My tendency right now is to wait and see - because I'm too tired to do anything else.  But I'm getting weary of it feeling like we aren't allowed to express our opinions about Abbie's story for fear of being called out as Crane haters.  It feels like it's come to that.  And it's so unnecessary.  

 

At first read, Abbie's Quantico thing being retconned (seemingly) was disturbing and a change to her characterization in a way that could easily have haters calling her a cheating you know what for a fling with new guy.  But more than that, part of what makes Abbie interesting to me was that she literally gave up so much to stick to her role as a Witness and work on Corbin's death.  She accepted her Witness job more readily than Ichabod - who we see constantly trying to bring his past into his present.  Abbie wasn't like that AND as a result, she seemed to be getting a really short end of the stick.  Her leaving Quantico behind could be seen as a left turn from how she behaved with her sister Jenny when they were younger and Jenny faced up to what happened to them in the woods, but she didn't.  But after what happened to Corbin, she faced up to it and put her needs on the back burner and chose Witnessing.

 

That was really important to me and if cynic is right, then hopefully that will still hold true (although I still think Luke is a messy complication).  But if cynic is wrong, then I guess I will just have to hand wave it.  But it still irritates me because this didn't NEED to be changed (and my worry is that the writers still don't "get" Abbie).  They could easily have made the new guy a mentor who helped her get to almost be at Quantico, etc..  But whatever.

 

One other way this might not be a big deal is that whoever wrote the blurb didn't quite get it right.  Kinda like how the PR teams and the writing teams for SH have seemed way out of sync at times - this could be a case of that too.

Edited September 2, 2015 by phoenics

[OnceSane]

It's becoming heated in here. If you can't respectfully discuss the spoilers without calling out one another, perhaps you should step away for a bit. Posts have been, and will be, deleted that don't follow our overall "Don't Be A Dick" policy.

[Indi]

Metzner has declared the latest spoiler incorrect:

 

This article is incorrect re: "four years." Not sure how that happened...

 

So now we don't have to twist ourselves into pretzels to make that timeline for Abbie work.

[catrox14]

Metzner has declared the latest spoiler incorrect:

 

 

So now we don't have to twist ourselves into pretzels to make that timeline for Abbie work.

 

 

LOL. I wonder if that other person is the fall guy for an actual correct spoiler, but when the backlash hit and they went back to look at it they were all WHOOPS!

[phoenics]

 

One other way this might not be a big deal is that whoever wrote the blurb didn't quite get it right.  Kinda like how the PR teams and the writing teams for SH have seemed way out of sync at times - this could be a case of that too.

 

Heh - guess I was right.  They really need to try to get their communication house in order.  Maybe they don't pay much attention to that... they don't understand that we're like puppies who've been starved.  Any scrap they throw at us, we're gonna rip apart to dissect it to death.

 

But because I just don't wanna get worked up anymore, I am just going to try to wait and see.  Nothing I can do to change their direction now, so might as well see what they've got.  If our fears are proven right, then I'll just exit stage left.  If not, I save myself a few worry wrinkles.  Well, I don't get wrinkles, but you know what I mean.

Edited September 2, 2015 by phoenics

[cynic]

Well, I'm glad that's been cleared up. I, for one, don't like having to ingest a lot of handwavium to watch my shows. It's one thing when the shows are comedies or procedurals that basically can be shown in any order, but I like my mythology shows to make sense, at least with important plot points and character beats. I hope this means that the writers are paying attention to canon. 

 

So, now we're one month away from the premiere. Shouldn't we have a teaser or something by now? I'd love to see some commercials or other ads for the show. 

[catrox14]

LOL and upvote for "Handwavium" tm cynic . I may just steal that for use elsewhere but I'll give you credit!

[cynic]

Heh, I don't actually remember, but I'm sure I probably picked that up from somewhere else, but thanks anyway Catrox. :)

[phoenics]

Handwavium obliviosa!

[DearEvette]

Lol.  I too love "Handwavium" Cynic.

 

I still use "Vortex of Stupidity" which I first heard in this group, not sure who to credit with that one. 

[catrox14]

Lol.  I too love "Handwavium" Cynic.

 

I still use "Vortex of Stupidity" which I first heard in this group, not sure who to credit with that one. 

 

Not to be that gal...but /raises hand.  That was me.

 

I'm thinking I might need to make sure that's my epitaph LOL.

Edited September 3, 2015 by catrox14

[SnarkyTart]

Katrina and Henry are both still dead...right? 

 

Retcon I can deal with.  I'll give the show at least part of one more season to re-earn my happiness as long as Katrina and Henry stay really most sincerely dead.

[Julia]

Handwavium is a TV Trope, isn't it? That's where I got it.

[DearEvette]

Not to be that gal...but /raises hand.  That was me.

 

I'm thinking I might need to make sure that's my epitaph LOL.

 

Oh yay!  For a hot second I thought it was you but wasn't sure.  I can't even think S2 & Katrina without using that phrase.

[blixie]

I have to agree that Abbie choosing not to go to Quantico being retconned into having been there four years before, is NOT a small detail, but I also agree that most casual viewers probably will stutter of it and then not give much of a shit. I am not a casual viewer and I give a shit, and like was said up thread it's more annoying for how wholly unnecessary it is. I feel like this is a classic thing a new show runner wants to do though, technically Betsy Ross is ALSO a retcon since we never heard jack about her for two years suddenly she's huge part of Ichabod's work with Mr. Washington, but I think the new guy prefers to totally reset the board so he can feel more ownership over the characters and stories,I just hope they will argue this is all down to a branched Tempus Fugit time line.

 

Should have kept reading! Glad to hear it's not four years ago, so I'll assume it's during the time jump?

Edited September 4, 2015 by blixie

[Miss Dee]

From The Spoiler Room (Entertainment Weekly):

Do you know what's going on with Jenny and Abbie this season on Sleepy Hollow? --Mary

I hear Jenny and Abbie start this season off in a strong and supportive place, but then a decision to pursue their childhood past brings them to a crossroads.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Miss Dee

[tv echo]

Sleepy Hollow - Episode 3.01 - I, Witness - Press Release
Posted by Assassin at Friday, September 04, 2015
http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/09/sleepy-hollow-episode-301-i-witness.html

THE FIGHT AGAINST EVIL IS OVER…OR IS IT -- FIND OUT ON THE ALL-NEW SEASON THREE PREMIERE OF “SLEEPY HOLLOW” THURSDAY, OCTOBER 1, ON FOX

With old enemies gone, Abbie and Crane are apparently moving on with their lives. However, the discovery of a mysterious tablet shows that there may be a new dark prophecy surrounding our Witnesses. The two team together, with the help of an old amulet, and continue their epic takedown of the forces of evil in the all-new “I, Witness” Season Three Premiere episode of SLEEPY HOLLOW airing Thursday, Oct. 1 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (SLH-302) (TV-14; L, V) CC-AD-HDTV 720p-Dolby Digital 5.1

Cast: Tom Mison as Ichabod Crane; Nicole Beharie as Lt. Abbie Mills; Lyndie Greenwood as Jenny Mills.

 

Ask Ausiello: Spoilers on Walking Dead, Vampire Diaries, Castle, The Good Wife, Bones, Big Bang, Supernatural and More
By Michael Ausiello / September 4 2015, 9:29 AM PDT
http://tvline.com/2015/09/04/walking-dead-negan-season-6-spoilers-glenn-casting/

Question: What’s this past history between Sleepy Hollow’s Abbie and Lance Gross’ character, Daniel? —Regina
Ausiello: Abbie and Daniel “had a very special relationship when they met,” new showrunner Clifton Campbell tells TVLine, “and it’s going to be kind of challenging to suddenly be somebody’s boss when you started out being very, very close friends.” Whether that closeness continues into Season 3 creates a “challenge” for the feds, he adds. “You want all the good of that close, trusting, intimate relationship without the messiness of it going too far, and that’s proven in the first handful of episodes so far this season to be interesting to watch.”

[phoenics]

I'm getting excited! I am actually gonna skip Scandal and park my butt right here for the premiere of SH S3. I hope I'm not let down, but I'm happy.

Abbie is actually getting a love interest. She's going to be shown as an ACTUAL WOMAN! That's progress. I didn't expect any Ichabbie action this season - but I wouldn't mind some angst to hint at it. Ichabod can have his past - but it's IN THE PAST. When the show comes back, Ichabod will have to deal with just up and leaving town without a word to Abbie or anyone. Can you imagine the angst? And WHY did he just up and leave?

Man pain? Over just Katrina?

I don't think so - I think it's more than that honestly. Man pain over Katrina Abbie would have completely understood. She would have understood that so well if he just told her before bolting and leaving town. But no - Crane just left. I think something about it being Abbie that he shanked his wife for and what that means deep down inside is part of why he just left. I mean - he got in a tussle with StruggleWitch that ended her life because it was her or Abbie. He chose Abbie.

Anyway - I just cannot wait for their first scene together. I know we probably won't get an epic hug like in S2E1 but...

Dang - now I wanna rewatch S2E1 and Tempus Fugit.

ETA: I do need the show to remember that the main partnership is Abbie and Ichabod - not Abbie and anyone else or Ichabod and anyone else. Ichabod and Abbie. Abbie and Ichabod. Ichabbie! Don't let us down writers!

Edited September 5, 2015 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Did you guys see this?

http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2015/08/27/sleepy-hollow-alex-kurtzman-teases-season-3/
 

“Crane is going to be looking deep into his past for what his partnerships might have been during the Revolutionary War, and how that affects his relationship with Abbie now,” Kurtzman said. “One of those characters may or may not return from the past in certain ways. I can’t tell you exactly how, but they might.” And in the wake of a pretty emotionally brutal finale, the focus of the show will continue to remain on Crane and Abbie’s partnership. “I think the question is who are Crane and Abbie without each other, and who are they together?” Kurtzman teased.

I really, really hope they don't try to bring Nikki Reed onto the show in the present. That's going to cause a huge backlash. And it's going to feel a lot like Katrina 2.0.

 

*stay hopeful... stay hopeful* 

 

Does anyone here watch Arrow?  I'm wondering if maybe SBR is gonna be used like Shadow was on Arrow - someone who helped Oliver work out issues in his present?  Maybe SBR is just there to bring clarity to Ichabod about Abbie, etc..  I'm probably reaching through wishful thinking.

Edited September 5, 2015 by phoenics

[tv echo]

SLEEPY HOLLOW

While Abbie was off becoming an FBI agent during the year-long time jump between Seasons 2 and 3, Ichabod spent some of his alone time in England. Crane's search for purpose in the modern world led him "back to his ancestral roots,” new showrunner Clifton Campbell says, adding that what Ichabod found will play into "how often and in what configuration being a Witness has taken shape." When the Second Tribulation (aka the evil for which Moloch was the opening act) begins, Mills and Crane will have a lot of help from Jenny and Joe Corbin (new series regular Zach Appleman). But don't worry: Though Nikki Reed is joining as Betsy Ross and Shannyn Sossamon will be around as the ominous Pandora, Campbell promises that the Millses will have plenty of screen time this season. In one sister-centric episode, they "revisit some of the more interesting versions of their past as children," he says.

BONUS SPOILER!: Crane "is not still at the cabin," Clifton previews. "He needed to find a place of his own."

RETURN DATE: Thursday, Oct. 1 at 9/8c (Fox)

Fall TV Spoilers 2015: Exclusive Scoop On 43

http://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2015-season-premiere-spoilers/#!40/fall-preview-sleepy-hollow/

Edited September 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Yolapukka]

Pandora is described as ominous,  I thought she was likelier to be an enemy than a true ally and this could indicate that direction, though the word could also mean that she is an omen, not necessarily that she herself is a threat. 

[phoenics]

Yeah I still think it could go either way with Pandora.