All Episodes Talk: Walk With Me

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

I don't think people understand the meaning of "Greatest Show of All Time."  Otherwise, we certainly wouldn't be looking at WKRP in Cincinnati as a finalist. 🤦‍♀️ BTW, I did watch and enjoy WKRP, but that doesn't make it a G.O.A.T. candidate!

Every year, I’ve been like “what?” at the show that win GOAT. 
I just don’t understand WRKP and Great British Baking being nominated in a world where West Wing and Mad Men exist.

[wknt3]

11 minutes ago, deaja said:

Every year, I’ve been like “what?” at the show that win GOAT. 
I just don’t understand WRKP and Great British Baking being nominated in a world where West Wing and Mad Men exist.

Well leaving aside the inherent issues of the idea of GOAT given the diversity of genres and the vast changes in technology and culture meaning that you will always end up trying to compare apples and hand grenades and splitting the vote, it is simply a fact that "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly" beats anything in Season 5.

[caitmcg]

None of those shows make sense to me in GOAT context. I never watched the X Files, but I’ve seen and liked the others, but no. small voice/ I don’t rate WW among mine, either /small voice. But I get it.

[Cetacean]

I guess my definition of a GOAT would be great writing which includes both humor and drama, a dash of "teaching moments" that make me think even if I didn't agree, episodes where I both laughted and cried in that single hour, and lines I remember and use decades later.  Then throw in great actors that had chemistry and storylines that (mostly) made sense.  That's the WW to me.

In Excelsis Deo will remain my favorite episode of all of my TV viewing for the rest of my life. Nothing these days even comes close.  I doubt anything ever will.

And to think I almost did not watch.  What could be good about a show with an emphasis on the government?  But my favorite Detroit News TV critic wrote highly of it and I normally agreed with his choices.  I didn't start watching until it was in reruns that first year.  To think what I would have missed.....

[AriAu]

On another topic, people have asked about TWW swag so see this site.

https://lemonlyman.shop/product-category/episodes/

Pretty clever, but some are a little too on the nose for me and others are not that good looking (in my opinion), and none can top the Josiah Bartlet Presidential Library shirt I bought about 10 years ago, but I'm thinking of an investment in the Cartographers for Social Equality or  Hartsfield Landing shirts as a way of identifying true Wing Nuts and the Big Block of Cheese one since it is cool looking.

[Cetacean]

15 minutes ago, AriAu said:

On another topic, people have asked about TWW swag so see this site.

 

Holy cow, so many great lines!  Definitely something that would attract the eye of Wing Nuts - and the upside down world from the cartographers frankly freaked me out as well.

[Driad]

Cool TWW swag, but where are the muumuus?

If we could design a fabric print for TWW muumuus, what would it show?  I wouldn't want it to say West Wing or have pictures of the characters.  More subtle items, like Gail the goldfish, a roast turkey, and a Paul Revere carving set.  What else?

[Cetacean]

21 minutes ago, Driad said:

What else?

A bicycle, a tennis ball, big block of cheese (a must), a picture of Pluie, books written in Latin, a cello

[ProudMary]

7 hours ago, Driad said:

Cool TWW swag, but where are the muumuus?

If we could design a fabric print for TWW muumuus, what would it show?  I wouldn't want it to say West Wing or have pictures of the characters.  More subtle items, like Gail the goldfish, a roast turkey, and a Paul Revere carving set.  What else?

A Raggedy Ann doll with a knife stuck through its throat (that would be quite a macabre muumuu!); a book of Eskimo poetry; a black Vera Wang; a cricket bat; a voice recorder being smashed by a gavel.

 

[AriAu]

On The Rewatchables podcast, they have a topic "What prop would you most like to have from the movie?"......which I think is the same as what you are discussing, except that the prop has to actually exist.

Assuming you cant take like the entire set and need to pick specific items, I think that any answer other than "these knives were made for my family by a Boston silversmith named Paul Revere" is just wrong......altho I think "a cricket bat given to me by Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth Windsor" would be a close second.

Edited to add.....

Ooops, serious brain cramp......the only other acceptable choice was given back to POTUS by Mallory........THE napkin, preferably in the frame.

Edited July 9, 2021 by AriAu

[supposebly]

I have continued rewatching season 1 of the West Wing yesterday and I'm afraid I may like the show a lot less than I used to if I continue.

It's the episode Enemies. There is a scene where Hoynes says something to a committee about the primary goal to be getting the banking bill through congress. Bartless enters the room and catches the last part and goes: shouldn't our primary goal to be to serve the American people? Hoynes says that's not what he meant and then it gets blown out of proportion and the woman who took minutes seems to have said something to Danny.

I really hated Bartlett at that point. What the hell was that about? And when Hoynes goes to clean the air, Bartlett goes, you shouldn't have made me beg. Apparently he was a bit reluctant to join him right after he had just lost the primary to Bartlett. No kidding.

So very very petty.

Overall, from what I remember, the writing for Hoybes became very problematic later on. I wondered if that was supposed to prepare us for that? Because it did the exact opposite for me.

[Guest]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:52 AM, supposebly said:

I have continued rewatching season 1 of the West Wing yesterday and I'm afraid I may like the show a lot less than I used to if I continue.

It's the episode Enemies. There is a scene where Hoynes says something to a committee about the primary goal to be getting the banking bill through congress. Bartless enters the room and catches the last part and goes: shouldn't our primary goal to be to serve the American people? Hoynes says that's not what he meant and then it gets blown out of proportion and the woman who took minutes seems to have said something to Danny.

I really hated Bartlett at that point. What the hell was that about? And when Hoynes goes to clean the air, Bartlett goes, you shouldn't have made me beg. Apparently he was a bit reluctant to join him right after he had just lost the primary to Bartlett. No kidding.

So very very petty.

Overall, from what I remember, the writing for Hoybes became very problematic later on. I wondered if that was supposed to prepare us for that? Because it did the exact opposite for me.

Yeah, Bartlet was a real jerk at times. But in a consistent way, which to me made him seem more real.  Like, his big flaws were always similar and related to ego. Which, a person in his position will almost always have a huge ego - even aside from being President, a wealthy person whose roots trace back to a signer of the Declaration of Independence, Nobel Prize winner, etc. He wasn't used to being told no or not getting his way in life.

I did hate the Hoynes storylines later on - Season 5 on, but I don't think this was foreshadowing anything more than Hoynes and Bartlet not being friends.

[PeterPirate]

It's been a while since I've done one of these.  As a youth I was completely infatuated with her.

Markie Post was in Night Court with
Dan "Cricket Bat" Larroquette  

[Cetacean]

I always wondered if Fitz AKA Admiral Sissymary was based on Colin Powell.

[Moose135]

When PTV worlds collide - from Monday's Jeopardy! in the category "Fictional Africa".

Edited October 19, 2021 by Moose135

[ProudMary]

20 hours ago, Moose135 said:

When PTV worlds collide - from Monday's Jeopardy! in the category "Fictional Africa".

The woman who answered correctly, sounded giddy when she said, "What is The West Wing?" 

She's one of us. ☺️

[Guest]

Food for thought - at the beginning of Season 6, if Leo hadn't had a heart attack, do you think he would have followed through with his resignation? Or would he and Jed have patched things up?

[PeterPirate]

From Eppur Si Muove:

Abbey - Ok, Elmo. It's time for your vaccination and I'm going to give you a little injection.

 

[Driad]

Classic West Wing Thanksgiving moments

[Cetacean]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Classic West Wing Thanksgiving moments

Absolute classics.  God, I miss this kind of quality.

[MaryMitch]

Last night I finished a re-watch of the series. I first watched it during the previous administration.  Even though the previous and current administrations are so different, I think the show ages well and most of the plots are still relatable.

(But I hate CJ's hair in the last season. 😁 )

Edited November 20, 2021 by MaryMitch

[Driad]

Bartlet meant the knife as a thoughtful gift for Charlie, but really it was a white elephant. A knife made by Paul Revere and formerly owned by a U.S. president would be valuable. Charlie would need to buy insurance and store it in a safe deposit box, and he couldn't sell it without insulting Bartlet.

ETA: What Happens to Pardoned Turkeys?

Edited November 26, 2021 by Driad

[ProudMary]

This interesting video from Variety popped up in one of my feeds today. It's from June 25th, but I hadn't seen it before, so I thought I'd link it here. It's an interview with Thomas Schlamme about how the HBO Max When We All Vote reunion special came together. Length: 15:07.

 

[Cetacean]

1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

This interesting video from Variety popped up in one of my feeds today. It's from June 25th, but I hadn't seen it before, so I thought I'd link it here.

Loved it! What a great interview and a chance to see my favorites yet again.

[BW Manilowe]

On 11/30/2021 at 5:00 PM, ProudMary said:

This interesting video from Variety popped up in one of my feeds today. It's from June 25th, but I hadn't seen it before, so I thought I'd link it here. It's an interview with Thomas Schlamme about how the HBO Max When We All Vote reunion special came together. Length: 15:07.

 

Thanks for sharing. Yes, it’s probably actually an interview, but I think of it as more of a talk since we don’t hear the interviewer asking the questions. Who knows? Maybe he’s answering questions off of a cue card. By the way, Thomas Schlamme’s wife is Oscar-winning actress Christine Lahti, who most recently had a multi-season recurring role as Doris McGarrett, the long-believed dead, but still alive CIA operative mother of Navy SEAL LtCdr Steve McGarrett, Head of the Five-0 Task Force, on the recently-ended, decade-long CBS reboot of Hawaii Five-0. She won the Oscar for directing the Best Short Subject, I think it was. I also forget the title & year.

Edited December 4, 2021 by BW Manilowe
To add comments.

[chaifan]

I'm coming to the end of a full series rewatch I started this summer.  I'm on Season 7.  I just watched, well sorta watched, episode 7, The Debate.  About 15 minutes in I realized I was just watching a scripted television presidential debate, which I found incredibly boring.  Just as I find real presidential debates.  So I fast forwarded through, and sure enough, the screen grabs showed that the whole episode was the debate.  So I skipped the rest of the episode.  Did I miss anything important? 

I will admit, I'm not liking Season 7 very much.  I really don't remember any of it from when it first aired.  I'm wondering if I gave up on it and didn't finish the series back then. 

My main issue is that this show is The West Wing.  And Season 7 is very much not about the West Wing.  I miss my regular characters and presidential plot lines.  The whole election story is good, and is well done, but it's not The West Wing. 

If I could go back in time, I'd convince Tommy Schlamme to convince the network that what they really needed to do for Season 7 was to have a 2 hour slot.  Hour 1 being a "new" show called The Campaign, and Hour 2 being The West Wing.  Lots of cross over plots, characters, etc., but you could completely miss The Campaign and still follow The West Wing to it's conclusion. 

[CheshireCat]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:27 AM, Driad said:

Bartlet meant the knife as a thoughtful gift for Charlie, but really it was a white elephant. A knife made by Paul Revere and formerly owned by a U.S. president would be valuable. Charlie would need to buy insurance and store it in a safe deposit box, and he couldn't sell it without insulting Bartlet.

Other than the President, no one knew that Charlie had the knife, did they? Maybe I'm naive but I would think that if they kept it that way, the knife should be fine.

[PeterPirate]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:34 PM, chaifan said:

I'm coming to the end of a full series rewatch I started this summer.  I'm on Season 7.  I just watched, well sorta watched, episode 7, The Debate.  About 15 minutes in I realized I was just watching a scripted television presidential debate, which I found incredibly boring.  Just as I find real presidential debates.  So I fast forwarded through, and sure enough, the screen grabs showed that the whole episode was the debate.  So I skipped the rest of the episode.  Did I miss anything important? 

I will admit, I'm not liking Season 7 very much.  I really don't remember any of it from when it first aired.  I'm wondering if I gave up on it and didn't finish the series back then. 

My main issue is that this show is The West Wing.  And Season 7 is very much not about the West Wing.  I miss my regular characters and presidential plot lines.  The whole election story is good, and is well done, but it's not The West Wing. 

If I could go back in time, I'd convince Tommy Schlamme to convince the network that what they really needed to do for Season 7 was to have a 2 hour slot.  Hour 1 being a "new" show called The Campaign, and Hour 2 being The West Wing.  Lots of cross over plots, characters, etc., but you could completely miss The Campaign and still follow The West Wing to it's conclusion. 

I don't think you missed anything by skipping through The Debate.  I watched the episode when it aired but not since then.  

In the commentaries the showrunners talk about how the last two years of any presidency are mostly inconsequential, and they wrote the show to match that.  It didn't make for spellbinding television, that's for sure, but for the most part it was quality stuff.  The last three episodes of the show are excellent.  At least they wrapped things up well. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by PeterPirate

[CleoCaesar]

Just finished a series rewatch. This time even more than others I wished Josh and Amy had ended up together as a D.C. powerbroker couple instead of Josh and Donna. Yes, the "will they or won't they?" with Donna had its charms, but by the end of the series you see how much Donna has grown and think maybe it's time she moves on from Josh too.

He'll be Chief of Staff for 4-8 years and realistically any romantic relationship of his would likely suffer the same fate as Leo's marriage. He's married to his work, totally single-minded. Donna would likely want to have children and I just don't see that for Josh. Amy is equally career-obsessed, and would probably tolerate the same from Josh.

Plus I think Josh and Amy's chemistry was just better but that's admittedly very subjective.

 

 

[supposebly]

I think all of the women could do better than Josh, the career-obsessed man-child. But I agree, Amy would have suited better.

But I could write an essay about the female-male relationships in the West Wing. And most of them not terribly favorable.

[CheshireCat]

13 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Just finished a series rewatch. This time even more than others I wished Josh and Amy had ended up together as a D.C. powerbroker couple instead of Josh and Donna. Yes, the "will they or won't they?" with Donna had its charms, but by the end of the series you see how much Donna has grown and think maybe it's time she moves on from Josh too.

He'll be Chief of Staff for 4-8 years and realistically any romantic relationship of his would likely suffer the same fate as Leo's marriage. He's married to his work, totally single-minded. Donna would likely want to have children and I just don't see that for Josh. Amy is equally career-obsessed, and would probably tolerate the same from Josh.

Donna ended up as the First Lady's CoS, so I don't think she would want to have children within the next 4-8 years. However, I do wonder how much she and Josh would actually see each other.

[PeterPirate]

A bittersweet way to usher in the new year.

Betty White was in The Golden Girls with
Bea Arthur who was in All In The Family with
Rob Reiner who directed The American President, starring
Martin Sheen  

 

Speaking of Rob Reiner, he appears in this delightful remake of The Princess Bride.  It was made during the height of the shutdown, and each actor filmed his or her own scene separately.  

 

 

 

[Cetacean]

I introduced a friend to the first episode of WW last night - she's hooked!

[Driad]

Since it's State of the Union day, here's a bit from "He Shall from Time to Time":
President Josiah Bartlet: We meant "stronger" here, right?
Sam Seaborn: What does it say?
President Josiah Bartlet: I'm proud to report our country is stranger than it was a year ago?
Sam Seaborn: That's a typo.
President Josiah Bartlet: Could go either way.

[ProudMary]

As a big Foo Fighters fan, I'm shocked and 💔 over the death of Taylor Hawkins. Rest well, Taylor. We don't have to do the Six Degrees connection for Taylor. 😔

 

[ProudMary]

Also,

 

[oakville]

On 1/1/2022 at 8:22 AM, Cetacean said:

I introduced a friend to the first episode of WW last night - she's hooked!

I like to re watch the WW every couple of years. It's such a good show that makes you think about how government operates.

I am trying to remember if the show had any episodes involving  President Bartlett dealing with the Soviet Union or Russia.

[ProudMary]

1 hour ago, oakville said:

I like to re watch the WW every couple of years. It's such a good show that makes you think about how government operates.

I am trying to remember if the show had any episodes involving  President Bartlett dealing with the Soviet Union or Russia.

The one that comes to me right away is the episode where a US spy plane crashes in Russia and President Bartlet has phone conversations with the Russian President about allowing the US military to access the plane. It's "Evidence of Things Not Seen" (Season 4, Episode 20.)

I'm sure there are others. 

 

[PeterPirate]

There is the visit from Vasily Konanov, a Ukrainian politician, in The Lame Duck Congress.  That was the B-story that included the classic line "How you doing, Dalai Lama?"  

[Driad]

C.J.: They sent me two turkeys. The most photo-friendly of the two gets a Presidential pardon and a full life at a children's zoo. The runner-up gets eaten.

Bartlet: If the Oscars were like that, I'd watch.

[Moose135]

Jed just may tune in next year...

[PeterPirate]

Norm McDonald was in Norm with
Faith Ford who was in Hope & Faith with
Ted McGinley, aka Mark Gottfried in three West Wing episodes

Bob Saget was in Full House with 
Candace Cameron who was in six episodes of St. Elsewhere with
Mark Harmon, aka Special Agent Sunshine  

Gilbert Gottfried was in Beverly Hills Cop 2 with
Eddie Murphy who was in Coming To America with
John Amos, aka Admiral Sissymary  

[CheshireCat]

The parents and I are watching the end of S2 at the moment (real life made my mom want to take break) and I'm struck yet again by how big of an issue Bartlet's MS is. I get that the fact that he kept it secret made him vulnerable to blackmail and why it's an issue at that point.

It's such a non-issue in Germany. That doesn't mean we aren't curious but a few years ago, there was an incident, the public was told that it was an undisclosed medical issue that was being treated and that was it. So, it's mind-numbing to see the time, effort and money they have to spend on the issue. It seems like such a waste.

And the more often I watch it, the more Mrs Landingham's death gets to me. Couldn't she have retired for one reason or another?

[Bastet]

21 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

And the more often I watch it, the more Mrs Landingham's death gets to me. Couldn't she have retired for one reason or another?

I hate how often female characters are assigned dying as the most interesting thing they can do, and how such stories are generated in order to explore how male characters respond to that death. 

But in this specific scenario I can't imagine any circumstance under which Mrs. Landingham would retire while Bartlet was in office -- if they wanted to explore his loss of her, death was the only believable way.

That they never should have gotten rid of her to begin with is a separate argument, but once the call was made to shake Bartlet up that way, I think retirement would have disrespected her, as there's just not a believable reason for which she'd have left the White House before Bartlet.

[justmehere]

Beyond the fact of Sam leaving, one thing always really bugged me. There was a line in one episode where Toby was talking about Will taking over as Deputy Communications Director, and Toby said that after Sam loses the election, he should become a senior advisor to the president, that it was time for him to move up. Then there's no other mention of it. I understand the drama around Rob Lowe's departure, and then Sorkin's, but that situation at least needed a throwaway line about Sam deciding to stay in CA - or something. Instead, he just disappeared without a word. 

I finally bought a complete series set recently. I'm currently early in season 6 and finding it harder to watch as it goes. It became more a bunch of talking heads than engaging people interacting, and don't get me started on the rift between Bartlet and Leo. I'm not sure I can handle the upcoming election stories and the shift in focus away from the main characters. As someone posted earlier, the show lost its charm. (Although I will say that the incessant "yeah"s in S2 (I think) did get to me.) 

Side note: The book, The Mixed up Files ... also features in the show Mr. Robot - it's Angela's favorite book. 

[caitmcg]

10 hours ago, justmehere said:

(Although I will say that the incessant "yeah"s in S2 (I think) did get to me.) 

Sorkin had a couple of writing tics on TWW, “yeah” was one, and people saying “OK” in a certain tone before walking away was another. Both of those were gone from the show’s dialog once he was gone. 

[justmehere]

4 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Sorkin had a couple of writing tics on TWW, “yeah” was one, and people saying “OK” in a certain tone before walking away was another.

I guess the "OK"s didn't bother me because I don't recall that as much. The "yeah"s were fine too until there started being too many in a row in a single conversation. 

Separate thing: I think someone mentioned this before, but there are no English subtitles on the season 6 discs. Easier for me to catch a lot of quick dialog by also seeing it, so now I'm missing some.   

[justmehere]

So - there were some good episodes in season 6 and some good scenes in lesser episodes. But the physical fight between Josh and Toby was too much as was the flashback with Kate and Leo - failed attempts to breathe some life into things.

Also, Josh the indispensable campaign manager who can't seem to do anything right with the maverick congressman, who won't listen to the guy he hired and is always right anyway despite never having run a national campaign, so why did he want Josh? Then, the endless talking about things that I forgot 30 seconds after they were said made it something I watched casually rather than something where I was riveted and wanted to catch every word.

It's not that they didn't talk about policy in the earlier years, it's that they were human stories, not just endless political rambling. There's the one where a Korean war vet died; the one with a young Mrs. Landingham who helped shape Jed; the one where Bartlet stayed on the line with a nervous sailor during a hurricane; the one where Leo described his pleasure in a drink - the way the ice sounds in a glass; the one where Josh put his hand through a window due to his PTSD; the ones with CJ and her secret service agent; the one where.... and on and on. As small as those bits sound, they were representative of bigger, human stories. Plus, the little humanizing bits worked: Danny gave CJ a real goldfish; Bartlet took 2 different kinds of pain pills; Sam mistook Leo's daughter's class to mean that she was a student, and so on. Yeah, there was some good in S6 - I remember being moved by Bartlet visiting wounded vets in an early S6 episode - but most of it was just kind of there. 

Now, I've just watched the first episode of S7, and I hate what they've done to Leo. He's been so diminished. Maybe it's the reality of someone having had a heart attack and trying to come back... but then he's brushed aside and portrayed as not having a clue about campaigning - as if he had no experience at all with such things (I know he wasn't the one speaking publicly before, but he's not an imbecile) - and his ideas are generally dismissed. It started with the awful conflict with Jed about the mid-east peace talks and went from there. There's an occasional throwaway scene with Jed being so glad to see him, but there's no real interaction between them. I mean, there was a moment in this one where he tries to get Jed to back off of education changes, and Jed asks what Leo would recommend as chief of staff, but even that seems uncharacteristic, as if Leo had forgotten that viewpoint so easily. By the end of the episode, he and Santos are communicating a little better, but knowing what's going to happen... I can't stand to see Leo so diminished. 

(I can sort of see where both Josh and Leo are sticking to old ways that they know rather than evolving with the times, but I just don't think either one is handled well. They've made original, beloved characters look like fools. Uh, well, Josh did often screw up. but still.)

Meanwhile, Toby has all but disappeared. Frankly, I don't remember the shuttle-leak story well though I've seen the season at least twice before - so I won't weigh in - but mainly, I miss Toby and Sam, the idealists. I miss the charm and the humanity and the stories that made me really feel things. It's not necessarily a bad show at this point, it's just so, so, so different, and I prefer the "other" one.

[PeterPirate]

On 6/3/2022 at 3:41 PM, justmehere said:

Separate thing: I think someone mentioned this before, but there are no English subtitles on the season 6 discs. Easier for me to catch a lot of quick dialog by also seeing it, so now I'm missing some.   

That is odd.  The English subtitles are available on HBOMax, but not the French or Spanish ones.  

One positive thing I recently realized about the switch from Netflix to HBOMax is that the next episode starts automatically halfway through the credits.  So I can play multiple episodes without suffering through the annoying trumpet blast.  

On 6/10/2022 at 1:10 AM, justmehere said:

So - there were some good episodes in season 6 and some good scenes in lesser episodes. But the physical fight between Josh and Toby was too much as was the flashback with Kate and Leo - failed attempts to breathe some life into things.

Also, Josh the indispensable campaign manager who can't seem to do anything right with the maverick congressman, who won't listen to the guy he hired and is always right anyway despite never having run a national campaign, so why did he want Josh? Then, the endless talking about things that I forgot 30 seconds after they were said made it something I watched casually rather than something where I was riveted and wanted to catch every word.

It's not that they didn't talk about policy in the earlier years, it's that they were human stories, not just endless political rambling. There's the one where a Korean war vet died; the one with a young Mrs. Landingham who helped shape Jed; the one where Bartlet stayed on the line with a nervous sailor during a hurricane; the one where Leo described his pleasure in a drink - the way the ice sounds in a glass; the one where Josh put his hand through a window due to his PTSD; the ones with CJ and her secret service agent; the one where.... and on and on. As small as those bits sound, they were representative of bigger, human stories. Plus, the little humanizing bits worked: Danny gave CJ a real goldfish; Bartlet took 2 different kinds of pain pills; Sam mistook Leo's daughter's class to mean that she was a student, and so on. Yeah, there was some good in S6 - I remember being moved by Bartlet visiting wounded vets in an early S6 episode - but most of it was just kind of there. 

Now, I've just watched the first episode of S7, and I hate what they've done to Leo. He's been so diminished. Maybe it's the reality of someone having had a heart attack and trying to come back... but then he's brushed aside and portrayed as not having a clue about campaigning - as if he had no experience at all with such things (I know he wasn't the one speaking publicly before, but he's not an imbecile) - and his ideas are generally dismissed. It started with the awful conflict with Jed about the mid-east peace talks and went from there. There's an occasional throwaway scene with Jed being so glad to see him, but there's no real interaction between them. I mean, there was a moment in this one where he tries to get Jed to back off of education changes, and Jed asks what Leo would recommend as chief of staff, but even that seems uncharacteristic, as if Leo had forgotten that viewpoint so easily. By the end of the episode, he and Santos are communicating a little better, but knowing what's going to happen... I can't stand to see Leo so diminished. 

(I can sort of see where both Josh and Leo are sticking to old ways that they know rather than evolving with the times, but I just don't think either one is handled well. They've made original, beloved characters look like fools. Uh, well, Josh did often screw up. but still.)

Meanwhile, Toby has all but disappeared. Frankly, I don't remember the shuttle-leak story well though I've seen the season at least twice before - so I won't weigh in - but mainly, I miss Toby and Sam, the idealists. I miss the charm and the humanity and the stories that made me really feel things. It's not necessarily a bad show at this point, it's just so, so, so different, and I prefer the "other" one.

Season 6 is my least favorite of the series.  I like the first two episodes which wrapped up the Middle East arc.  Also the last episode about the convention, which moved at a fast pace and showed Bartlet being Bartlet again and getting Santos the final votes for the nomination.  

Season 5 contains a lot of episodes that I like.  But yeah, those first four seasons were magical, the absolute pinnacle of television.  

[shapeshifter]

I've only watched the show once, about 5 years ago, and reading all of the above disappointment upon rewatching, I think I'm good with just the one-time watch.

Thanks, though, for reminding me of this:

On 6/10/2022 at 4:10 AM, justmehere said:

the little humanizing bits worked: Danny gave CJ a real goldfish;

I loved Danny giving CJ the goldfish.
I vaguely recall being disappointed that they didn't live happily ever after, and I'd rather just hold onto the image of the fish and not have to be reminded of anything else via a fresh watch.