All Episodes Talk: Walk With Me

[SparedTurkey]

 

She would have made every medical appointment he had, she would have seen at least some of those symptoms. Had they not made Abby Bartlet a doctor and given the Bartlet's a strong marriage I would buy her not knowing before Mrs Landingham.

Why would she have known? They didn't make medical appts for his MS - Abbey handled all of it. If they had to go outside I assume they would have just told Mrs Landingham that he wasn't available. As for seeing the symptoms - she wasn't around him 24/7 - she was just the receptionist.

 

To be honest - I would have been suprised if she did know. They were close but not that close. It made sense Charlie knew - he was around the president 24/7. She may have known something was off but that would be it.

[jaytee1812]

Mrs Landingham wasn't a receptionist, she was his PA.

The original diagnosis wasn't made by Abbey, the 17 people was made up of several doctors who were involved in the initial diagnosis. Abbey didn't take over until Jed ran for President.

[SparedTurkey]

 

The original diagnosis wasn't made by Abbey, the 17 people was made up of several doctors who were involved in the initial diagnosis. Abbey didn't take over until Jed ran for President.

Everything I have seen - Mrs Landingham was the senior receptionist. Charlie was PA.

 

And sure - Abbey didn't make the original diagnosis. But by all accounts those first few doctors were under a (voluntary/involuntary) cone of silence. It wasn't like they were going to call Landingham and say 'Oh by the by, your boss - has MS'. And Jed wouldn't have - look how long it took him to tell Leo. To be honest, I could see Jed not telling her just to keep her out of trouble.

[jaytee1812]

Mrs Landingham was President Bartlet's Executive Secretary, Charlie was his Personal Aide. Pre-presidency Mrs Landingham was Governor Bartlet's PA/secretary.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Was she alive during 17 people?  Mrs. L?

 

My issue when it all came out and the whole congressional hearings was when the President was shot she told the anesthesiologist about the MS and told him he could tell me whoever he wanted.  Now as a doctor he couldn't but I always wondered why she didn't use that as a defense when Congress came calling.

[BW Manilowe]

Was she alive during 17 people? Mrs. L?

My issue when it all came out and the whole congressional hearings was when the President was shot she told the anesthesiologist about the MS and told him he could tell me whoever he wanted. Now as a doctor he couldn't but I always wondered why she didn't use that as a defense when Congress came calling.

Yes, Mrs. L. was still alive in 17 People. That was Ep 218. She wasn't killed off until Ep 221, 18th and Potomac (the next-to-last ep of S2), & her funeral was in the S2 Finale, Two Cathedrals.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Thanks Barry...I really can't believe I don't remember...I have rewatched the entire series several times.

 

In my world she knew.  Not much got past Mrs. L.

[SparedTurkey]

 

My issue when it all came out and the whole congressional hearings was when the President was shot she told the anesthesiologist about the MS and told him he could tell me whoever he wanted.  Now as a doctor he couldn't but I always wondered why she didn't use that as a defense when Congress came calling.

You mean Abbey? She was his wife - she isn't allowed to treat him. That is in violation of ethics laws (which Congress would have gotten into during a hearing and painted it very badly). She was done just for treating him. Plus - there was the issue that Charlie picked up where she had lied on Zoey's university application form regarding her parent's health saying both were totally healthy (which isn't an Australian thing so I don't get why that was asked anyway but that was the show and so - it was a big deal). Basically she was done and doctor/patient privilege was irrelevant to her.

 

And I ultimately think the Mrs L might have known something was up with Jed's health but I don't believe that a) she would have been told or b) would have sussed the exact condition and c) that the Bartletts would have told her anyway.

[kassygreene]

I don't think it was an ethics law, but she did have prescriptions that were in her name but intended for her husband sent to her across state lines.  It's the slippery slope thing, which I surmised they entered in part because for a long time the Bartlets didn't think they'd get the nomination.  Then they did, and they were already trapped in a cover-up.

 

Actually, the whole MS thing pissed me off.  Having him have a medical problem developed while in office would be one thing.  Conspiring to conceal the disease from the electorate during and after an election was Hollywood drama.  Also kind of plausible for politicians, at least in the nineties, but mostly cheap Hollywood drama.

[SparedTurkey]

No I didn't think it was a law (only because im not well versed in American Law). But they did point out she breached the ethical guidelines of at least 3 AMA state chapters. Plus, at the very least in Aus it is not ethical to treat family members - there is a degree of closeness there that may affect the quality of care. So there is that too.

[ParadoxLost]

Everything I have seen - Mrs Landingham was the senior receptionist. Charlie was PA.

 

And sure - Abbey didn't make the original diagnosis. But by all accounts those first few doctors were under a (voluntary/involuntary) cone of silence. It wasn't like they were going to call Landingham and say 'Oh by the by, your boss - has MS'. And Jed wouldn't have - look how long it took him to tell Leo. To be honest, I could see Jed not telling her just to keep her out of trouble.

 

I don't think Mrs L knew, but I think they could have put forth that Abbey told Mrs L to keep an eye on Jed.  Its less likely than Zoey telling Charlie for the same reason but not outside the realm of possibility.

[Eeksquire]

 

No I didn't think it was a law (only because im not well versed in American Law). But they did point out she breached the ethical guidelines of at least 3 AMA state chapters. Plus, at the very least in Aus it is not ethical to treat family members - there is a degree of closeness there that may affect the quality of care. So there is that too.

Perhaps not law in the sense of "you'll be jailed if you break these rules", but more in the sense of "if you break these rules, you could lose your license to practice medicine".  As for the treating family issue, Oliver Babbidge raised it later when he asked her if she had asked if the President was having extramarital affairs and about STIs.  But the reality is, no matter what, Congress wouldn't have let her get away with it - it's not a defense in her favor that she shared the information when the stakes were high for Jed; the argument could (and would) certainly have been made that electing a President of the United States is a pretty high stakes decision for the populace as a whole.

[SparedTurkey]

Yeah I agree and that was my point. I work in a medical office and it is an absolute no go zone to treat anyone within immediate famiy and they can be disciplined for it - losing a licence to practice, which legally you can't practice without it - so its a part where medical bodies and the law intersect. And was the main issue against Abbey and why she voluntarily surrendered her licence.

 

And no - Congress weren't going to let her get away with it (nor any of them) and while they couldn't put her in jail or anything because it wasn't criminal it probably would have left the administration completely inept. I do remember the whole thing about Zoey's college form but it wasn't clear whether that was a legal breach or just ethical either.

 

I was surprised that the issue of impeachment wasn't raised or discussed very much. If a blow-job in the oval office warrants a hearing I would have bet lying about MS would have.

[kassygreene]

Zoey's admission form was, I believe, a legal breach.  There's a bit where they should have put something about family history, and it was filled in with none, and signed by Zoey's mother, which put her in the legally problematic as well as ethically challenged position, because Zoey started college during the Bartlet administration, while her father was president.  So on this form is direct evidence of a cover-up.  The discovery of that datum, by Charlie, who was not one of the 17 people, is what made it necessary for the President to consult Oliver Babish (and also gave us that glorious opener in Bad Moon Rising, with the tape recorder that wouldn't turn off that Babish had to pulverize with his gavel as soon as the President confessed that he may have committed several crimes, including conspiracy... (I may be a little mixed up here - did Charlie figure it out before Bad Moon RIsing or at the end of it?)

 

I find I kind of agree with that article, Bartlet's ego kicked in really early in his administration.  While today I might not care for him, in 2002 he was the first of the not-Bushes, and the West Wing was such a nice contrast to the real world (mostly).

[SparedTurkey]

Yeah I got it was a legal breach - but I just didn't understand why a uni would ask about family health history. Mine didn't. It just seemed a ridiculous plot point. Although The MS story brought us Babbish, who I loved. Although I also liked Tribbey.

 

 

Who did everyone prefer? Tribbey or Babbish?

[BW Manilowe]

Zoey's admission form was, I believe, a legal breach. There's a bit where they should have put something about family history, and it was filled in with none, and signed by Zoey's mother, which put her in the legally problematic as well as ethically challenged position, because Zoey started college during the Bartlet administration, while her father was president. So on this form is direct evidence of a cover-up. The discovery of that datum, by Charlie, who was not one of the 17 people, is what made it necessary for the President to consult Oliver Babish (and also gave us that glorious opener in Bad Moon Rising, with the tape recorder that wouldn't turn off that Babish had to pulverize with his gavel as soon as the President confessed that he may have committed several crimes, including conspiracy... (I may be a little mixed up here - did Charlie figure it out before Bad Moon RIsing or at the end of it?)

I find I kind of agree with that article, Bartlet's ego kicked in really early in his administration. While today I might not care for him, in 2002 he was the first of the not-Bushes, and the West Wing was such a nice contrast to the real world (mostly).

I forget exactly when, in the episode timeline, Charlie discovered it, but he discovered it because he was filling out his own college admissions paperwork--maybe even for Georgetown, where Zoey graduated from (& so did my brother, for Undergrad school), I forget--& something suddenly struck him when he got to what we eventually discovered was the Family Health History Form (which I don't remember either me or my brother having to fill out--but I went to a local "Regional Campus" for Indiana & Purdue combined instead of leaving home like my brother did). I could see where a University might want students' health history though, if they had an Infirmary/big deal Health Services Department on campus.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Who did everyone prefer? Tribbey or Babbish?

 

Why do I have to pick?  

[BizBuzz]

I am fond of both John and Oliver (funny, Oliver Pratt, Oliver Babish, they let him keep his first name) as actors, so it's a hard call.

 

Remember, they were in a meeting with Oliver Babish already when Charlie ask Margaret to interrupt the meeting.  So, Charlie's entrance into the MS debacle was not what forced Jed and Leo to go to Babish.  What forced everything was Toby figuring it out and then it was a domino effect.

[Inquisitionist]

I'm currently watching the final season.  Arnold Vinick seems like a liberal fantasy of a Republican presidential candidate. I don't think there is any way a candidate like that could have gotten the Republican nomination in 2006.  The pledge to appoint "pro-life" judges to the Supreme Court is a litmus test that would have come during the nomination process, not afterwards.  Still, it's fun to watch.

[BW Manilowe]

I'm currently watching the final season. Arnold Vinick seems like a liberal fantasy of a Republican presidential candidate. I don't think there is any way a candidate like that could have gotten the Republican nomination in 2006. The pledge to appoint "pro-life" judges to the Supreme Court is a litmus test that would have come during the nomination process, not afterwards. Still, it's fun to watch.

I get what you meant, I think; but the elections would've been, in real life, in 2004 & 2008--not 2006. The elections in TWW-verse were deliberately off the real US elections by 2 years. Probably to avoid potential confusion.

[Inquisitionist]

Having voted since 1976, I'm not confused.  ;-)  I was comparing the fictional world in which a fictional character ran for president on a fictional timeline to actual political conditions in the actual world at that actual time.  :-)

[FozzyBear]

I think with Abby the prescriptions may have been a legal issue. My impression was she was writing scripts to herself or an alias and then giving Jed the drugs. I think that is illegal. Plus it was brought up that on one occasion she had something sent to a hotel room on the campaign and that could have been prosecuted under federal drug trafficking laws since it crossed state lines. My memory was that it was presented as a weak criminal case, but enough to maybe get past a grand jury and defiantly enough to embroil the rest of Bartlet's presidency in scandal.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I did a quick google on this and the AMA "suggests" a doctor not treat a family member but I don't think it's a law.  A friend of mine was married to a pediatrician and I remember him writing her a perscription for antibiotics on a Saturday for a sinus infection.

 

Now the writing the perscriptions for yourself and treating someone else is a big no no...

[Guest]

I haven't read this thread because I assume it is full of spoilers for people who are only on the 4th episode of Season 3.  However, elsewhere on the internet I just read that the actor that played Leo died while the show was still filming and had to be written out.  I'm really sad about this.  Can anyone confirm this? If yes, is it as sad as I'm picturing?  I hear it is the final season, and I don't want to wonder the whole time. 

[AriAu]

haven't read this thread because I assume it is full of spoilers for people who are only on the 4th episode of Season 3.  However, elsewhere on the internet I just read that the actor that played Leo died while the show was still filming and had to be written out.  I'm really sad about this.  Can anyone confirm this?

 

 It is true-John Spencer died in the middle of the final season while they were filming.

 

If yes, is it as sad as I'm picturing?

 

Sadder. I will not give you the circumstances since it will spoil a whole lot of the 5th, 6th and 7th seasons. A lot of tear stained mascara, a lot of hushed tones, a lot of hugs, a big funeral etc....

 

I hear it is the final season, and I don't want to wonder the whole time

 

It is about 1/2 way thru the final season and again, I will not give you the circumstances since it will be a spoiler for much of 6th and 7th seasons.

[Guest]

Thanks, AriAu.  I appreciate that.  Part of me is so curious and part of me wants to see it unfold.  It's worse knowing he died in real life so it's not just a show death.

[Moose135]

I was a big TWOPer, and when I heard the news about John's death, that was the first place I went.

[AriAu]

was a big TWOPer, and when I heard the news about John's death, that was the first place I went.

 

Me too.

 

Part of me is so curious and part of me wants to see it unfold.

 

Deaja, if we told you the story line, it make no sense since a lot transpires before then in wonderful and interesting ways. In fact, it would ruin major chunks of Season 5 (a season I insist never happened, but that is just my opinion) and Season 6.

 

It was a strange time to be watching since John Spencer's actual death was several months before the characters death and, Deaja, we all knew that it was coming and the word was out about how it was going to happen-it was not a well kept secret.

I had always heard that the entire cast loved John Spencer and if you look back at clips from Emmy ceremonies, you really see it.

By the way, big article in today's Chicago Tribune about Sorkin, but almost no mention of TWW.

Edited October 12, 2015 by AriAu

[BizBuzz]

I haven't read this thread because I assume it is full of spoilers for people who are only on the 4th episode of Season 3.  However, elsewhere on the internet I just read that the actor that played Leo died while the show was still filming and had to be written out.  I'm really sad about this.  Can anyone confirm this? If yes, is it as sad as I'm picturing?  I hear it is the final season, and I don't want to wonder the whole time. 

 

I found out about John's death at TWOP and at first I thought it was a hoax.  It was sad, beyond sad, however, I feel the writers handled it very well.   Very well. 

 

Sorry you had to find that out so early in the series, please don't let it affect your watching.

 

I have been a long time John Spencer fan, from the days of L.A. Law.  

[BW Manilowe]

I haven't read this thread because I assume it is full of spoilers for people who are only on the 4th episode of Season 3. However, elsewhere on the internet I just read that the actor that played Leo died while the show was still filming and had to be written out. I'm really sad about this. Can anyone confirm this? If yes, is it as sad as I'm picturing? I hear it is the final season, and I don't want to wonder the whole time.

Hopefully this isn't a Spoiler for you. At the time John died, which was over the December/January Holidays (Hanukkah/Christmas/New Year's) hiatus, 14 eps of S7 had been filmed, 9 had aired at the time, & John was in 7 of those 9 (information according to his USA TODAY obituary, which was accurate as I remember). Leo didn't die immediately upon everyone's return from the hiatus, because--obviously--scripts & plots had to be rewritten because of John's death, & everybody loved him so much they wanted to find a way to honor his (& Leo's) memory properly.

As others have said, it's sadder than you're picturing. It was sad both on & off screen. I think it was the worst time, or 1 of the worst, in the show's fandom. I don't know if I should say more, because you're still only in S3 & have quite awhile to go, still, before you get there. But you'll see when you do. And you'll know when you do (get there) too. Again, I don't know how much more I should say, in case it's too spoilery for you.

Edited October 13, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[PeterPirate]

John Spencer is the primary player in my favorite episode of the series, Bartlet For America. I had occasion to watch it again because the head football coach at the University of Southern California was fired from his job yesterday due to his addiction to alcohol (and possibly other substances).  

 

The commentary track for BFA also features John Spencer and it is truly moving to listen to him relate his own personal experiences with substance abuse.  

[AriAu]

John Spencer is the primary player in my favorite episode of the series, Bartlet For America. I had occasion to watch it again because the head football coach at the University of Southern California was fired from his job yesterday due to his addiction to alcohol (and possibly other substances).

 

And possibly showing up drunk for a game, but I digress.

 

That episode is at the top of my favorites list as well, although picking just one episode is like picking among my children! Didn't we do a top 10 list of episodes at some point?

I always viewed that episode as being about one political party making hay out of any and every misfortune of the other, even if it does not focus on the issue at hand (Jed's deception), and actually being excited about the collateral damage.

The episode also features my favorite guest star...no, not Joanna Gleason, altho she is wonderful, but The Napkin. That thing shows up almost as much as Ainsley and more than Lionel Tribbey, my actual favorite guest star.

[kassygreene]

Wasn't Bartlett for America John Spencer's Emmy episode?

[HyacinthBucket]

I watched this series for the first time over the past couple of months, and it is now tied for #1 on my Top Ten Favorite Shows list, right beside Friday Night Lights.  I enjoyed every episode and every character, except for Mandy in Season 1, and Amy Gardner. 

 

I knew when I started the series that John Spencer had passed away, and so as much as I adored the soaring music of the opening credits, I always felt sad when I saw John Spencer.  The tribute to Leo left me sobbing.

 

I wish I had watched the series while I was on TWoP, but never saw an episode until recently.  I would have loved to have discussed each episode with all of you, although I am certainly enjoying reading your comments now. 

 

Hmmm...  Since I don't see a thread for Season 7, I will go ahead and ask a few questions on this thread.  I hope this doesn't ruin anything for those who haven't made it this far yet.

 

Question 1:  Do we know who leaked the military shuttle information to Toby?  He said it wasn't his brother, but who else would it have been?

 

Question 2:  Do we know why Toby was living in Columbia? 

 

Question 3:  I'm assuming that Will won the seat in Oregon, but what happened to Kate, other than writing a book?  Did you get the impression they were still together? 

Edited October 26, 2015 by HyacinthBucket

[Moose135]

I still don't believe Toby leaked the information, I think he was covering for someone.  And I don't think he was living in the country of Colombia, I think he was teaching at Columbia University.

[HyacinthBucket]

I still don't believe Toby leaked the information, I think he was covering for someone.  And I don't think he was living in the country of Colombia, I think he was teaching at Columbia University.

 

Yikes!  Of course!  Now I feel really stupid.  I'm happy to think of Toby teaching at Columbia and being able to see those adorable kids.  

 

I just assumed that Toby's brother had told Toby sometime before his death, and Toby was the one to pass it on to the reporter.  I would love to know if this was left to the viewers' imagination, or whether I somehow missed something.  Or maybe Richard Schiff is just too darn good at acting.  :)

[SingleMaltBlonde]

My memory is his brother told him and he leaked it.

 

My impression was Wil and Kate ended up together and he was in Congress.

[kassygreene]

I'm pretty sure the show never did say who leaked it.  I know Richard Schiff hated the story line, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that he settled in his head that Toby had learned something, perhaps very indirectly (but Toby is smart and would have been able to connect the dots) from his astronaut brother before he committed suicide (from the cancer)...  It was a bad plot from the start, and of all the things Sorkin ever did that annoyed me, getting himself fired so that John Wells (who had never watched the show) had to come in and be a showrunner that led to lots and lots of lame plotting in Season 5 is the part I hold the greatest grudge over.  

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Question 3:  I'm assuming that Will won the seat in Oregon, but what happened to Kate, other than writing a book?  Did you get the impression they were still together? 

 

It didn't seem to me like they were together.

 

As to what happened to her other than writing a book, she wrote the book with one hand while saving the world with the other. SuperKate, that is what she does.

[AriAu]

It was a bad plot from the start, and of all the things Sorkin ever did that annoyed me, getting himself fired so that John Wells (who had never watched the show) had to come in and be a showrunner that led to lots and lots of lame plotting in Season 5 is the part I hold the greatest grudge over.

 

Cant we all just pretend that Season 5 never happened (other than the Supremes).

I think it is a stretch to say he got himself fired, that the chasm from his departure was never filled. It went from being the greatest show of all time to merely the better than anything else on that season.

[DebbieW]

I think I'm one of the few who didn't really like the tribute to Leo.  I hated that the characters all sat around sharing made up little memories of him when there was a wealth of footage of actual interactions among all of them that could have been referenced and shown or worked into a montage.  I loved almost every conversation Leo ever had with anyone and would have loved to have seen some of them again.

[Guest]

I'm rewatching the pilot. It's interesting to me how Josh was the most idealistic, it seems. As the show goes on, he seemed to be one of the least idealistic of the group.

How did I dislike this pilot last time?!?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I'm rewatching the pilot. It's interesting to me how Josh was the most idealistic, it seems. As the show goes on, he seemed to be one of the least idealistic of the group.

How did I dislike this pilot last time?!?

 

He had moments when he was the least idealistic but that character trait never faded. Picking Santos to as the best presidential candidate was one of the most idealistic arcs IMO.

[rippleintime17]

I accidentally started a rewatch last weekend. By accidentally, I mean that I hadn't planned on doing a full series rewatch right now but missed the show, so put on the second episode of the series. This was last Sunday. I'm up to Bad Moon Rising already. Those middle episodes in season two are all "OMG I LOVE THIS EP!" for me, such a strong string right there.

[jaytee1812]

I'm watching Bartlet for America, why did the president tell Hoynes (and Fitzwallace) before Leo?

[Moose135]

I accidentally started a rewatch last weekend.

 

Did you trip over something?

[BizBuzz]

I'm watching Bartlet for America, why did the president tell Hoynes (and Fitzwallace) before Leo?

 

Hoynes he told at the election when he asked him to be VP.  I don't know about Fitzwallace.  And why before Leo?  That confuses me too.

[jaytee1812]

I always thought the first two people outside the family/doctors to know should've been Mrs Landingham and Leo. Apart from that the reveals worked perfectly for me.

[Melancholy]

I didn't know that Fitz knew before Leo. What ep was this from? 

 

As for Hoynes, IMO, the Bartlets thought it was overly unethical of them to manipulate John Hoynes to represent a ticket as the standard-bearer with his reputation on the line nationally if he's been lied to on a key issue regarding the Presidential candidate that he's supposed to be defending. I think Jed also wanted Hoynes to prepare himself that it'll be more likely in this particular presidency that Hoynes would need to assume the Presidency. Leo was an aid, not asked to assume a constitutional-level position, even though Leo was important than Hoynes to the day-to-day presidency. 

 

I agree that it's an odd line-drawing but it makes sense to me. IMO, Jed and Leo were emotionally close but not actively involved in each other's lives pre-Napkin Flashback. It created conditions where Jed didn't consider Leo as someone who needed to be informed when hearing the diagnosis, but then, Jed felt very awkward that he didn't tell his super-close friend when Leo came in, speechifying about how Jed would be the ideal president. Jed got caught up in Leo's plans and admiration of him, and didn't want to break the spell by admitting that he not only had MS but appeared to be keeping it a secret for years from his friend. 

[BizBuzz]

I didn't know that Fitz knew before Leo. What ep was this from? 

 

In Bad Moon Rising Oliver says ...

 

OLIVER

Okay. The First Lady and your kids, that's four. The six original doctors and radiologists, that's ten; your brother, that's 11. Fitzwallace, the Vice President, and Leo, that's 14...

 

I always assumed this was in order.