S08.E10: Trouble On The Family Tree

[Aging Goth]

We have argued both sides of this situation and it just comes down to this...

 

Patricia made choices based on what her family wanted her to do in order to keep the peace.  Was it the best choice for her daughter?  Probably not.  We don't know what demons she incurred by having to let go of her child.  The fact that she never had another child, to me, is very telling of her mental state then and now.  Is she still making choices based on her family?  Probably.  In the end, she has to live with the choice she made for herself and the only child she will ever have.

 

Kenya made choices based on her hurt and her pain of abandonment.  It may never go away. She makes demands and plays the victim because of that hurt and pain.  She longs for the ideal family she will never have unless she lets go and makes that happen for herself.  That may take a long time and some serious therapy.  The fact that she is seeing a therapist is a great start towards healing.

 

Neither one of these women are whole.  Neither one is really at fault.  They both are damaged in some way and both need help to heal.

[RCharter]

We have argued both sides of this situation and it just comes down to this...

 

Patricia made choices based on what her family wanted her to do in order to keep the peace.  Was it the best choice for her daughter?  Probably not.  We don't know what demons she incurred by having to let go of her child.  The fact that she never had another child, to me, is very telling of her mental state then and now.  Is she still making choices based on her family?  Probably.  In the end, she has to live with the choice she made for herself and the only child she will ever have.

 

Kenya made choices based on her hurt and her pain of abandonment.  It may never go away. She makes demands and plays the victim because of that hurt and pain.  She longs for the ideal family she will never have unless she lets go and makes that happen for herself.  That may take a long time and some serious therapy.  The fact that she is seeing a therapist is a great start towards healing.

 

Neither one of these women are whole.  Neither one is really at fault.  They both are damaged in some way and both need help to heal.

But Patricia didn't make the choice that her family wanted her to make.  She gave the child to Ronald's family, even though there is every indication that her family wanted her to give the child up for a closed adoption.  And I would only say that for 20+ years she has treated that child like dirt, and that deserves an apology, because Kenya did nothing to deserve that.  No matter what demons Patricia has, there is nothing to stop her from saying or writing those words.  Demons don't mean that you physically can't just say you are sorry.  A person has a right to their feelings, I get it, but sometimes you are called to do the right thing in spite of your feelings and your demons.  And the right thing would have been to at least acknowledge Kenya's existence for 20+ years.  She had no problem acknowledging Kenya's existence once Kenya became recognized as Miss USA.  So, even though the demons may have been haunting Patricia, she was still able to pick up the phone to reach out once it potentially became advantageous for her to do so.  

 

I don't think its so crazy to hold Patricia accountable for her 20 years of bad behavior.  So yes, I do think one party is at fault.  

 

I don't think in this situation Kenya is "playing" a victim, because I think she actually is a victim.  She has given no indication that she expects a close mother/daughter bond with Patricia and seems to understand that her grandmother played that role and is at peace with that.  It sounds more like she just wants to be able to have the conversation with Patricia, or at least have Patricia acknowledge her existence at this point.  She isn't demanding an apology from her, even though I think she deserves one.

[Granimal]

I wonder if people would be attempting all these mental acrobatics if it was Ronald that had behaved the way Patricia did.

My aunt was an unwed teen mom in the south in the mid 70s. She had to go to an alternative high school to finish her schooling. But she kept her baby and raised him. I don't know what it was like in Detroit, but she was able to manage (albeit struggle) in Texas.

 

Or if it was anyone other than Kenya.

 

What about Patricia?! If anyone is damaged in this situation- it's her-the social worker, who helps other people's children but doesn't acknowledge her own at 60+.

 

Kenya may have waved a scepter in someone's face, but she never abandoned her own child. Patricia's wrong-doings far outweigh Kenya's IMO, YMMV and all that but its hard to compare "acts like a victim" to "treats child like she doesn't exist forty-ish years and counting."

Edited January 13, 2016 by Granimal

[bosawks]

I did learn from this not to take a tour bus to an emotional confrontation with my mother.

[Aging Goth]

Kenya may have waved a scepter in someone's face, but she never abandoned her own child

.trouble is, Kenya never had a child at 15.  So we will never know how she would've reacted.

[ZaldamoWilder]

Why me...??? ;-)

 

I totally get the criticism of her actions as an adult as seemingly intentional but that's assuming she's making these decisions based off of a healthy mindset. With this particular part of her life I do not believe she can make the kind of sound decisions that she can make when she's, lets say, performing basic functions at her job or living her basic day to day. We use our experiences, or views and perspectives in order to make decisions and in Patricia's case her history, her emotions, the consequences she has to reflect on are what she uses when faced with her situation with Kenya. They are still those of a an unhealthy child, in an unhealthy situation, with traumatic outcomes. A scar heals back with thicker and tougher skin in order to protect the already damaged area. After years the initial injury is technically healed but that portion of the skin is still thicker, still protecting in the same way from when it was first needed. Maybe a bit faded, not as thick but still there and not the same as the rest of the skin. Point being in other aspects of her day to day life she draws on basic functions ,sympathy, caring and consideration much like the unaffected skin surrounding the scarred skin can still function as it's intended to but get to that scar tissue and it's compromised. Sometimes hair doesn't grow on scar tissue, scar becomes tainted or the pigment is changed, some skin scars rather thick and unsightly. What I hope to explain with this is that one can't expect the scarred skin to function in the same capacity as the unharmed skin surrounding it. It's forever changed.

 

I totally understand the sentiment that Patricia should be doing SOMETHING to ease Kenya's hurt. My stance is that I understand why she would be incapable and why in all actuality it shouldn't be a surprise. It's heartbreaking for sure but I get it. I'm also not inclined to believe 100% that Kenya's accounts really paint an accurate picture. Not saying this as a dig at Kenya but because of her own pain she's not inclined to share the experience in the best possible light or recount the situations in an unbiased way which is understandable.

 

Hope that clarified my position a bit more. :-)

 

Lol.  I think it was that, given your other choices for emphasis (bold and italics) you went with all caps, which could only be interpreted as your passionate demonstration of wholeheartedly meaning that shit! lol.    Since I'm a girl who derives a nerdling type of enjoyment from analogies, I heart you for likening Patricia's sociopathy to the scar where no more hair grows.  <--- shady af right?  lmao.   No but for real, I wanna stay teachable and that absolutely made it easier for me to understand her present day mind-mayhem. 

 

Patricia is a sack of shit.  Were she male, with her profession after this sketch-ass behavior (getting in touch once Kenya was doing well in pageants), you know what we'd call him?  Justin Bieber Daddy (TM Nene Leakes).  She's a rotten person and I'm going to sleep the sleep of a thousand innocent babies typing that.

 

This on the other hand.  Girl you made my wobbly bits jiggle at my desk early in the morning.  Justin Bieber Daddy/Lindsay Lohan Daddy, just the lot of those raggedy mf's huh?  LMAO!!!!  Lawd, it's still funny. 

 

Good morning Board family  :D

.trouble is, Kenya never had a child at 15.  So we will never know how she would've reacted.

 

right but the original point is that being a shit stirrer with boundary issues and not acknowledging a human that you gave birth to years after the fact aren't even in the same realm of offensive behavior.

[Yours Truly]

We have argued both sides of this situation and it just comes down to this...

 

Patricia made choices based on what her family wanted her to do in order to keep the peace.  Was it the best choice for her daughter?  Probably not.  We don't know what demons she incurred by having to let go of her child.  The fact that she never had another child, to me, is very telling of her mental state then and now.  Is she still making choices based on her family?  Probably.  In the end, she has to live with the choice she made for herself and the only child she will ever have.

 

Kenya made choices based on her hurt and her pain of abandonment.  It may never go away. She makes demands and plays the victim because of that hurt and pain.  She longs for the ideal family she will never have unless she lets go and makes that happen for herself.  That may take a long time and some serious therapy.  The fact that she is seeing a therapist is a great start towards healing.

 

Neither one of these women are whole.  Neither one is really at fault.  They both are damaged in some way and both need help to heal.

AMEN!

[LIMOM]

They both need to heal away from my tv.....

But wishing them the best, who knows maybe, just maybe...Patricia and Kenya will be able to come to terms with their pasts

And reconcile in a healing way.....

Yeah.....

Dream on.....

[RCharter]

Or if it was anyone other than Kenya.

^^Exactly.^^  

[jumper sage]

While I think this could be a monument to Kenya's self-centeredness, it might also make sense in another way.

 

She was planning this family reunion for both sides of her family.  If people from her mother's side wanted to come, she may not have wanted to ruffle Moore feathers by calling it a Grant family reunion.  And knowing that her mothers side might not show up at all, she didn't want to ruffle Grant feathers by calling it the Grant/Moore reunion.  And it might be odd to have something called a "Grant/Moore" reunion given the history between all the parties. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong, Kenya can be self-centered, so it could just be that she wanted everyone wearing tee-shirts with her name on it.  But I'm not sure what I would call the family reunion in her situation.  I might have just given everyone a plain Hanes Beefy-T and let them figure it out for themselves.

OMG!  Those shirts were so narcissistic!  I have never had a shirt at any family reunion.  Is it a southern thing?  Why not just put, "Family Reunion 2015"?  I really can't stand her.

 

right but the original point is that being a shit stirrer with boundary issues and not acknowledging a human that you gave birth to years after the fact aren't even in the same realm of offensive behavior.

A women has the right to privacy after giving up a child.

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by jumper sage

[RCharter]

OMG!  Those shirts were so narcissistic!  I have never had a shirt at any family reunion.  Is it a southern thing?  Why not just put, "Family Reunion 2015"?  I really can't stand her.

I know we got one at the only family reunion I've ever been to.  It seemed like such a waste of time and money, I only wore it for the photo.    I personally don't get it, and I swear if it were me, it would be the Hanes beefy-t.  But I clearly don't do family reunions, and I sure as heck wouldn't try to plan one.  I can't even keep track of the names of all my cousins.

[jumper sage]

RCharter - did you notice most people did not wear the shirt?

[ZaldamoWilder]

OMG!  Those shirts were so narcissistic!  I have never had a shirt at any family reunion.  Is it a southern thing?  Why not just put, "Family Reunion 2015"?  I really can't stand her.

 

Lol.  I'm not sure if it's exclusive to the south, my family's not even from America, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's because Family Reunion 2015 doesn't identify whose family it is.

 

 

A women has the right to privacy after giving up a child.

 

I agree but if privacy is her expectation maybe it's a little quack a doodle do to keep showing up where that child is going to be.

[RCharter]

RCharter - did you notice most people did not wear the shirt?

I remember thinking that the guys weren't putting them on....and that I didn't blame them.  Few men are going to want to wear a white shirt with pink writing on it.  And, no matter how much I like or dislike a person, I'm not a fan of family reunion t-shirts period.  Or really any tee-shirt for an organized event.  And I'm SOOOOO picky about tee-shirts.  If its not a a cute feminine cut, I'm not wearing it.  It darn near took an act of Congress for me to wear the shirt for the group photo.  I maintained that I could have just worn my own cute yellow top and no one would have been the wiser.  

 

Zaldamo -- my family isn't from this country either, but they were all about that dumb family reunion tee-shirt.  So you're right, its probably not just a southern thing....

Edited January 13, 2016 by RCharter

[kassa]

And it might be odd to have something called a "Grant/Moore" reunion given the history between all the parties.

 

 

It actually DID say "Grant/Moore families" (or "Moore/Grant families") in smaller type underneath the gigantic KENYA'S FAMILY REUNION.

 

My cousins have fairly frequent family reunions on their Dad's side and they're ALL about the t-shirts.  (Ohio)

[qtpye]

I am trying to decide what is worse.

 

Having a mother that does not acknowledge your existence or having Mama Joyce as your mother.

 

Mama Joyce could not even be bothered to babysit Riley for one second, but demands her daughter buy her not one, but two houses?

 

Kandi said that the show forced Mama J to act a fool.  Really...did they force your mother's no account boyfriend to strip your old house (which you gave to your mother for free) and leave it in shambles.

 

In the New Jersey thread they talked about how these shows are very scripted, but they can not force anyone to talk about anything they did not want to.  So you have a lame season of Jersey were cast members fight over comments in a cook book because they did not want to bring the real issues on camera

 

She probably is going to sell that crib on Ebay..

[Watermelon]

I know we got one at the only family reunion I've ever been to.  It seemed like such a waste of time and money, I only wore it for the photo.    I personally don't get it, and I swear if it were me, it would be the Hanes beefy-t.  But I clearly don't do family reunions, and I sure as heck wouldn't try to plan one.  I can't even keep track of the names of all my cousins.

Every year we do a reunion we have a tshirt.  Ours is under Rhynes and our reunions include their 6 kids' families and so on.  It's just to commemorate that 1) we had one, 2) when it was and 3) where it was.

 

I agree but if privacy is her expectation maybe it's a little quack a doodle do to keep showing up where that child is going to be.

I'm still trying to figure out if Kenya's granny dropped her off at Sunday dinner at the Moore's house every week and every week patricia stared right through her. I don't get why she would have been around them so (seemingly)frequently at all, let alone with Patricia right there.

[RCharter]

Every year we do a reunion we have a tshirt.  Ours is under Rhynes and our reunions include their 6 kids' families and so on.  It's just to commemorate that 1) we had one, 2) when it was and 3) where it was.

I get that reasoning, but I feel like the picture can do that too.  And with less waste, because I know I'm not wearing that t-shirt again, and it feels awkward to give it to a goodwill, because who wants to wear a tee-shirt from my family reunion?  So, right now, I just have a random tee-shirt that I don't want, but would feel strange giving to goodwill.  First world problems indeed :)

[SFoster21]

I get that reasoning, but I feel like the picture can do that too. And with less waste, because I know I'm not wearing that t-shirt again, and it feels awkward to give it to a goodwill, because who wants to wear a tee-shirt from my family reunion? So, right now, I just have a random tee-shirt that I don't want, but would feel strange giving to goodwill. First world problems indeed :)

I buy tee shirts from goodwill to paint in, so your tee shirt would be purchased at the right price.

[ZaldamoWilder]

Zaldamo -- my family isn't from this country either, but they were all about that dumb family reunion tee-shirt.  So you're right, its probably not just a southern thing....

 

Gul where ya kin folk from? lol.  Mine are South African but we've been here so long I've forgotten basic African principles such as animals are food not pets.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if Kenya's granny dropped her off at Sunday dinner at the Moore's house every week and every week patricia stared right through her. I don't get why she would have been around them so (seemingly)frequently at all, let alone with Patricia right there.

 

Yes.  Because, why?  See the only trouble I have with this is not that someone dropped the child off, it's that the adult came, knowing she'd be there. 

 

I get that reasoning, but I feel like the picture can do that too.  And with less waste, because I know I'm not wearing that t-shirt again, and it feels awkward to give it to a goodwill, because who wants to wear a tee-shirt from my family reunion?  So, right now, I just have a random tee-shirt that I don't want, but would feel strange giving to goodwill.  First world problems indeed :)

 

7 of the ugliest bridesmaids gowns you've ever seen.   And for each, shit you not, the first words out her mouth were, I swear you'll be able to wear it again.   Really girl?  where the fuck am I supposed to be carrying a yellow parasol?   Sigh.  The things we do for framily.  lol.

[kassa]

where the fuck am I supposed to be carrying a yellow parasol?

 

 

You could be buried with it!  (At least people would have something to talk about at the viewing)

[ZaldamoWilder]

kassa please gather your belongings and report directly to h.r., you are hereby relieved of your duties.  

 

LMAO!!!!!!

 

eta because belongs aren't a thing.

Edited January 13, 2016 by ZaldamoWilder

[RCharter]

I buy tee shirts from goodwill to paint in, so your tee shirt would be purchased at the right price.

That actually would be a great way for someone to use that shirt.  I will put it in the goodwill bag!

 

 

Gul where ya kin folk from? lol.  Mine are South African but we've been here so long I've forgotten basic African principles such as animals are food not pets.

 

 

Yes.  Because, why?  See the only trouble I have with this is not that someone dropped the child off, it's that the adult came, knowing she'd be there. 

 

 

7 of the ugliest bridesmaids gowns you've ever seen.   And for each, shit you not, the first words out her mouth were, I swear you'll be able to wear it again.   Really girl?  where the fuck am I supposed to be carrying a yellow parasol?   Sigh.  The things we do for framily.  lol.

We are from a tiny country in Central America called Belize :)  We have started to understand dogs as pets, but we're still not letting a dog lick our mouth.  Maybe the next generation will become assimilated enough for that......I mean, isn't that really the promise of America?  A pot roast in every oven, streets paved with gold, and a dog to french kiss?

 

I'm kidding people who kiss dogs!  I know that dog spit is sterile and what not.....

 

My dad hearts S. Africa.  He has done Safari and went for World Cup.  I remember him trying to show us video of his safari but he inadvertently video taped his pants for about half an hour.  And African elephants are my all time favorite animal of all time.

 

LMAO @ yellow parasol.  I feel like thats a wedding I would want to be in, because it had to have been over the top if you got to carry a parasol.  You know that was an event, and I would have insisted on being a part of that.

[RCharter]

You could be buried with it!  (At least people would have something to talk about at the viewing)

LMAO -- the entirely eulogy could be about how she did manage to use the dress again!

[freeradical]

Somehow, I get the feeling that Patricia didn't make very many of the choices either. I get the feeling that the adults she lived with made them for her. This is just my way of trying to think of what I would have done if I was 15 and in that situation. I probably would have done everything my mother and father told me to do because I would have been scared to death, and if it meant giving up my baby in order to stay in their good graces, I might have done just that. Before I get judged, this is just me thinking like the very immature 15 year old that I was and putting myself in Patricia's shoes.

The early 70's was still very much a time when your family and their respect was everything. Even if Patricia could legally make the choice doesn't mean it was "her" choice ever at all. People did what their parents told them to do. Even the freaking 80's were still a time of 'shotgun weddings'!

Unless you were a young mother 30 plus years ago, you can't speak to how much of what we went through was choice. Much of it was pressure, guilt, pain,bravery responsibility on and on even if you did get married. I don't really consider choices made while backed into the corner of what's best for the child, your family and least of all you a choice at all. Besides, whatever started this snowball rolling 40 plus years ago is irrelevant now. The only thing we know is there was a young, immature mother backed into a corner.

Kenya needs a psychiatrist. She is demanding things from someone believing it will give her closure. Closure is a mental process we work toward alone. If she thinks anything Patricia could say or do would give her closure, she is wrong. She can only give it to herself by looking within. Patricia isn't the issue, Kenya is and she's flailing. That's what's so sad about it all.

Edited January 13, 2016 by freeradical

[ZaldamoWilder]

That actually would be a great way for someone to use that shirt.  I will put it in the goodwill bag!

 

 

We are from a tiny country in Central America called Belize :)  We have started to understand dogs as pets, but we're still not letting a dog lick our mouth.  Maybe the next generation will become assimilated enough for that......I mean, isn't that really the promise of America?  A pot roast in every oven, streets paved with gold, and a dog to french kiss?

 

I'm kidding people who kiss dogs!  I know that dog spit is sterile and what not.....

 

My dad hearts S. Africa.  He has done Safari and went for World Cup.  I remember him trying to show us video of his safari but he inadvertently video taped his pants for about half an hour.  And African elephants are my all time favorite animal of all time.

 

LMAO @ yellow parasol.  I feel like thats a wedding I would want to be in, because it had to have been over the top if you got to carry a parasol.  You know that was an event, and I would have insisted on being a part of that.

 

OMG Belize is on my travel bucket list!  Girl.  This is the time for us to volunteer to be each other's tour guides.  Although, hate to disappoint but I will not go on safari, it ain't shit like six flags, the humvees and whether or not you're simba's next digestible product are within feet.  Those people I see on the news who wanna keep the windows open?  yo.  I'm doubled over in laughter.  Game reserve beasts only look lazy lol.   So, Table Mountain then? 

 

Um, I had a dog and loved him fiercely enough to have regularly stuck my hand in warm piles of poo on long walks and to have collapsed when he did.  We never kissed.  I don't think it's species-specific, I don't appreciate anyone's slobber.

 

LMAO -- the entirely eulogy could be about how she did manage to use the dress again!

 

If you look on your desk you will find a pink slip which closely resembles that of kassa's.  Please gather your things and see Ms. Hamilton to make last check arrangements.

[jumper sage]

Never had a t-shirt at a reunion.  Detroit area and Sicily from which we hail.

[Lois Sandborne]

Every year we do a reunion we have a tshirt.  Ours is under Rhynes

Okay, so ... does that or does that not make you Watermelon Rhynes?

[RCharter]

The early 70's was still very much a time when your family and their respect was everything. Even if Patricia could legally make the choice doesn't mean it was "her" choice ever at all. People did what their parents told them to do. Even the freaking 80's were still a time of 'shotgun weddings'!

Unless you were a young mother 30 plus years ago, you can't speak to how much of what we went through was choice. Much of it was pressure, guilt, pain,bravery responsibility on and on even if you did get married. I don't really consider choices made while backed into the corner of what's best for the child, your family and least of all you a choice at all. Besides, whatever started this snowball rolling 40 plus years ago is irrelevant now. The only thing we know is there was a young, immature mother backed into a corner.

But Patricia didn't do what her parents wanted her to do.  Her parents wanted her to do a closed adoption.  That did not happen.  Therefore her family did not make the decision, she did.  If her family had made the decision, Kenya would not have been given to Ronald's family but would have been put up for a closed adoption.

 

So choices aren't choices when they are made under pressure?  I don't see the logic in that.

 

 

You're right, what happened 40 years ago doesn't nearly matter as much as the terrible behavior Patricia displayed for 20+ years after she made her decision towards a child who did nothing to deserve such ill treatment.

Edited January 13, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

OMG Belize is on my travel bucket list!  Girl.  This is the time for us to volunteer to be each other's tour guides.  Although, hate to disappoint but I will not go on safari, it ain't shit like six flags, the humvees and whether or not you're simba's next digestible product are within feet.  Those people I see on the news who wanna keep the windows open?  yo.  I'm doubled over in laughter.  Game reserve beasts only look lazy lol.   So, Table Mountain then? 

 

Um, I had a dog and loved him fiercely enough to have regularly stuck my hand in warm piles of poo on long walks and to have collapsed when he did.  We never kissed.  I don't think it's species-specific, I don't appreciate anyone's slobber.

 

 

If you look on your desk you will find a pink slip which closely resembles that of kassa's.  Please gather your things and see Ms. Hamilton to make last check arrangements.

LOL -- from what I saw my dad had a good time.  But I'm probably not a good candidate for safari, I would probably try to pet an elephant and end up stomped.  LOL @ looking lazy......so true.

 

Belize is gorgeous, second largest coral reef in the world!  Rain forests to die for!  I remember last time I visited, we had a guy take us out fishing, and then he took us to an uninhabited island and cooked the fish right there.  Phenomenal!

 

I feel like the slobber of tiny dogs is becoming part of the American dream.  But alas, it will be the next generation of Americanized Belizeans who will enjoy such joys. 

 

I'll take my pink slip, but I'm also taking that parasol as part of my severance package!  

[Sugarbaker]

It actually DID say "Grant/Moore families" (or "Moore/Grant families") in smaller type underneath the gigantic KENYA'S FAMILY REUNION.

 

My cousins have fairly frequent family reunions on their Dad's side and they're ALL about the t-shirts.  (Ohio)

I thought I saw something about the "Grant & Moore families" under all that swirly cursive writing lol. The tee shirts were harmless (though that bright pink was obnoxious for my tastes). They made since being that Kenya was hosting the reunion, and we know how extra Kenya can be lol. Other than the color, I thought the shirts were rather tame than what Kenya usually comes up with.

So, right now, I just have a random tee-shirt that I don't want, but would feel strange giving to goodwill.

Lmao! Goodwill is filled with old family reunion tee shirt/jacket castoffs

Edited January 13, 2016 by Sugarbaker

[freeradical]

But Patricia didn't do what her parents wanted her to do. Her parents wanted her to do a closed adoption. That did not happen. Therefore her family did not make the decision, she did. If her family had made the decision, Kenya would not have been given to Ronald's family.

You're right, what happened 40 years ago doesn't nearly matter as much as the terrible behavior Patricia displayed for 20+ years after she made her decision towards a child who did nothing to deserve such ill treatment.

I edited my post I think while you were responding to also explain my feelings on why I don't think the "now" Patricia even matters in this situation. If we were talking about any person who has caused another person pain, placing your ability to heal on their apology or fake apology is like slapping yourself over and over. It won't help and it only hurts yourself.

I don't know why Patricia won't talk to Kenya and I don't know why Kenya keeps trying. At this point, Kenya's behavior is more confusing to me than Patricia's.

[charmed1]

I have about 15 family reunion shirts. I'm not sure if it's a southern thing or just an African-American thing given most African-Americans have southern roots, but there are a few reasons why our family wears them. For many of us, the family reunion shirt bears the name of the earliest ancestors we know by name. Many of us can't go back more than a couple of generations on our family tree, so it's helpful information to have. So even if your last name is Williams, the family reunion shirt may say "Johnson/Clifton Family Reunion 1998. Also, many of our reunions take place at public venues: picnic areas, amusement parks, etc. and if you get lost, but see a crowd of black people cooking out wearing the same t-shirt as you, you know you've found your folks. This is especially helpful with little kids running around. And it keeps interlopers from crashing your reunion which you've most likely paid some money for (including the cost of your t-shirt).See the "Cousin Pete" scene in Poetic Justice for reference. Now I personally hate wearing the damned things, but I also hate hearing my aunties mouths so I do it anyway. And they have given me a lifetime of shirts to wear to the gym.

Edited January 13, 2016 by charmed1

[RCharter]

I edited my post I think while you were responding to also explain my feelings on why I don't think the "now" Patricia even matters in this situation. If we were talking about any person who has caused another person pain, placing your ability to heal on their apology or fake apology is like slapping yourself over and over. It won't help and it only hurts yourself.

I don't know why Patricia won't talk to Kenya and I don't know why Kenya keeps trying. At this point, Kenya's behavior is more confusing to me than Patricia's.

"Now" Patricia matters as much as "Then" Patricia matters.

 

And the fact that she has behaved like an awful human being does matter.  I think its perfectly reasonable for Kenya to want a simple acknowledgement and even a short discussion.  No one has talked about what to do to change Patricia, we have only been discussing the acceptability of her behavior.  I think everyone on this board realizes that we have no power to make Patricia a decent human being.  But the discussion has been about whether or not her behavior is acceptable, reasonable, or even palatable.

 

And yes, sometimes all it takes is the words to make a person feel better.  So yes, Patricia can choke out an "I'm sorry" because she can physically form the words.  She doesn't need to feel them to say them.  Its the decent and human thing to do.

 

Kenya's behavior makes sense to me and I'm not even in her position.  Of course a human being would want acknowledgment from their mother.  Most people want acceptance/acknowledgment from their family.  Its natural to want to belong to a family and want acknowledgment from them, because we are social creatures who don't live in a vacuum.    People have accepted that Patricia made her decisions based on wanting acceptance from her family, but not that Kenya would want the same acceptance or acknowledgment?  I don't get how a person can understand Patricia wanting acceptance and not understand Kenya wanting that acceptance some level of mere acknowledgment.  Or to even be seen by her mother.  People have postulated that Patricia's current behavior stems from some need she had 40+ years ago to not be rejected by her family, but people can't understand why Kenya would seek out the same?   

 

I think its natural and human to want to be at the very least acknowledged by your family, in many ways it cuts to the core of who we are.  We don't live in a vacuum, so of course we want acknowledgment from our parents.

 

I don't find Kenya's behavior confusing at all, I know that I would be deeply hurt if my mother acted as though I didn't exist and looked through me at family functions and I don't think its strange to always want to be acknowledged by a parent who has acted as though you are invisible for 40+ years.  What I fail to understand is why Patricia can't choke out an apology, or write a letter, or send a singing telegram after 40+ years.  

Edited January 13, 2016 by RCharter

[freeradical]

So choices aren't choices when they are made under pressure? I don't see the logic in that.

There is actually a legal term for it. Under duress. It literally means the choice made is not considered your actual choice because you made it while under pressure.

[freeradical]

RCharter

I do want to say I want you to know my original comment wasn't directed toward you at all. I hear what you're saying in your posts and respect your opinion. I'm just posting my own rambling opinions with no intention of trying to change your opinion or anything. A lot of people feel the same way you do! Its a very complicated situation for Patricia and Kenya for sure. I hope Kenya gets some kind of closure somehow. :-)

Edited January 13, 2016 by freeradical

[Watermelon]

I get that reasoning, but I feel like the picture can do that too.  And with less waste, because I know I'm not wearing that t-shirt again, and it feels awkward to give it to a goodwill, because who wants to wear a tee-shirt from my family reunion?  So, right now, I just have a random tee-shirt that I don't want, but would feel strange giving to goodwill.  First world problems indeed :)

Makes sense.  Some just buy a smaller shirt size. Others take the time to cut it up and make them more wearer friendly.  One year in Phoenix we took them and turned them into crop tops. Because who voluntarily goes to Phoenix in July?

Kenya needs a psychiatrist. She is demanding things from someone believing it will give her closure. Closure is a mental process we work toward alone. If she thinks anything Patricia could say or do would give her closure, she is wrong. She can only give it to herself by looking within. Patricia isn't the issue, Kenya is and she's flailing. That's what's so sad about it all.

DASSIT!

 

Nothing Patricia said at that door would have made Kenya feel any bit better. There's NOTHING someone who abandoned you can tell you to make it ok.  Kenya has to work on herself to acknowledge to herself that for whatever reason Patricia couldn't/wouldn't be a mother to her, and it's ok.  She's ok. She's MORE than ok.

[RCharter]

There is actually a legal term for it. Under duress. It literally means the choice made is not considered your actual choice because you made it while under pressure.

 

Under duress would be under the threat of immediate or imminent harm.  Its not just under pressure, because so many of the choices we make in life are made under pressure.  I don't think that she made her decision under threat of imminent or immediate harm, because she didn't make the choice her family wanted her to make and I can't imagine anyone more able to hurt her than her family.

 

I'm sure Patricia's father's decisions to not allow "illegitimate children" in his house was made under some sort of social pressure.  But that doesn't make it any less his choice.  Ronald's decision to accept the consequences of his own behavior and not try to make a break for it and claim he had no idea what Patricia was talking about was likely made under pressure.  It was still his choice.

 

And, honestly, I don't fault Patricia for the choice she made at 15.  I do think it was a choice, and perhaps the better choice would have been to opt for the closed adoption.  But I certainly wouldn't expect a 15 year old to have the tools to raise a child, even if they were very mature, well adjusted and had a supportive family.  I think that goes double for a 15 year old with a father who isn't allowing illegitimate children in his house.

 

I do however, fault her for making that choice and then behaving terribly towards a powerless child for over 40 years.  I do fault her for not just saying "I'm sorry" or at least in 40 years having a short conversation to explain things to Kenya.  Or even if she didn't want to do that putting it in a letter.  I do fault her for looking through Kenya like she didn't exist.  You would expect someone to show more regard for a stranger...even a stranger they didn't like.....but a child?

 

I think the last person that should be made to suffer in the situation is the child.  The very last person, because the child had no choice.  And Patricia had a difficult choice, thats for sure, but she still had some choice in the matter.  And she should have known that her choice would entail seeing Kenya at some point and Kenya knowing who she was.  

 

RCharter

I do want to say I want you to know my original comment wasn't directed toward you at all. I hear what you're saying in your posts and respect your opinion. I'm just posting my own rambling opinions with no intention of trying to change your opinion or anything. A lot of people feel the same way you do! Its a very complicated situation for Patricia and Kenya for sure. I hope Kenya gets some kind of closure somehow. :-)

Aww, sweet :)  I think these are interesting discussions to have, and if I wanted to just talk to people who agreed with me I could talk to a mirror.  Its fun to talk to those who agree, but its an interesting challenge to talk to those who don't, because it forces me to really think through my position.  I'm certain your comment about being an old 50's fuddy duddy was directed at me....and I'm totally okay with that.  I may be feisty, but I think I'm pretty thick skinned from a lifetime of difficult foreign parents :)

 

I do think it is a very, very sad situation.  Having two parents that have always been in my life and in my corner I can't even being to imagine how much it would hurt me if they weren't there.  Especially my mother.

Edited January 13, 2016 by RCharter

[Watermelon]

Okay, so ... does that or does that not make you Watermelon Rhynes?

:)  I like you.

[Iguessnot]

But Patricia didn't do what her parents wanted her to do.  Her parents wanted her to do a closed adoption.  That did not happen.  Therefore her family did not make the decision, she did.  If her family had made the decision, Kenya would not have been given to Ronald's family but would have been put up for a closed adoption.

Adoption is the logical choice for the family that won't keep the baby and don't condone killing it. The Grants offered to raise their progeny. I haven't heard any evidence to suggest that Patricia defied her parents in accepting that option. Anyway as usual Kenya keeps zeroing in on her mother, but what about Grandpa and Grandma Moore. What about all those other Moore family members? When did these "you don't exist" meetings take place? How many times were they together? Someone as expressive as Kenya needs to go beyond her soundbite complaint.

 

Dang, I really need to proofread.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Iguessnot

[ButterQueen]

I don't know how far along Lauren is, but it appears that she is using her pregnancy to slack off. Good grief, most women work their regular jobs until close to birth. I don't blame Porsha one bit. And it's not fair for her to keep throwing it into Porsha's face that she is living Porsha's dream.

[SnarkKitty]

Sad thing is I'm not sure why we as women are so accepting of that whole "you do what you gotta do" mentality and allow our pregnancies to be compromised because what? It's okay for employers to be dismissive of a women with child? I get it is what it is but I just can't get on board with it being NOT OKAY to want to take it easy when you're pregnant. I know that in this day and age we keep on trucking but what I find offensive is that anyone OTHER than the pregnant person is in a position to judge how much harder they should be working.

 

Very sad that people condone such brutal perimeters. I for one am not going to allow such reckless ideas about pregnant women in the workforce compromise my pregnancy OR my job security OR my means to support my family. It shouldn't be either or. And sometimes people just get pregnant. The nerve!  All I know that there are accommodations made for all sorts of things in the workplace and for various circumstances but for some reason expecting them because of something as "frivolous" as pregnancy is an outrage. SMH. That is all sorts of crazy to me and society buys into it.

 

I don't think anyone - at least not me - was saying she should compromise her pregnancy. Thinking Lauren should work is being extrapolated into some sort of Lord of the Flies: Pregnancy Edition.  I'm just saying some random discomfort is not grounds to not work, and I'm not talking about all women/all cases, just this one. So far she hasn't shown any reason she can't work, just that she doesn't want to go into the office, or doesn't want to have to stand up. She's pregnant, not handicapped. I'm all good with you're growing a human and thus some accommodation should be made where necessary. I just think it shouldn't become a reason you can't work normally. And if she had a job with an employer who wasn't her half-sister? Damn skippy she'd carry some crackers to the office and sign for those packages... before 10am.

 

This is why I would hate working with family. If Lauren is truly not feeling well, having a difficult pregnancy and wants to put parameters on her job, she should go to the doctor and get a doctor's note asking for special accommodations due to her pregnancy. End of story. I think coming in and just telling Porsha or any employer what exactly you are and aren't gonna do whether due to pregnancy or any 'condition' is unprofessional. Get a damn receipt. Otherwise, your ass can come to work like everyone else.

 

I'm sayin'.

[swankie]

I know we got one at the only family reunion I've ever been to.  It seemed like such a waste of time and money, I only wore it for the photo.    I personally don't get it, and I swear if it were me, it would be the Hanes beefy-t.  But I clearly don't do family reunions, and I sure as heck wouldn't try to plan one.  I can't even keep track of the names of all my cousins.

 

My families on both my dad's side and my mother's side do family reunions averaging every 5 to 10 years or so.  I love them.  Especially since its a way to see family that has moved out of state that you don't get to see almost ever.  I also love how the matriarch's and patriarch's of the families get to see all of their kids, grandkids and great grandkids.  I come from a very large family on both sides and these get togethers give me life!  I feel fortunate that I have always been close to my cousins on both sides and I have saved every tee shirt as a keepsake.  That's why "Kenya's Reunion" tee shirt aside, it was nice seeing Kenya's family get together and the outpouring of love they seemed to have for one another.  Kenya should focus on that family and not even give another thought to her bio mother.  It's not like she's an orphan like so many unfortunate children.  In the scheme of things, her situation really isn't all that bad.  Millions of children grow up not knowing either of their biological parents.  At least she has her dad and his family and her aunt Lori.

 

Okay, so now we are expecting a woman who has been treated like dirt by her mother for 40 years to just "get over it"  But the woman who rejected her for 40+ years has a bunch of excuses for her shitty behavior?

 

 

I know people who were physically abused by their mothers and were removed from the situation and had to grow up in foster care who "got over it" better than Kenya has.  Sometimes you just have to accept that which you cannot change and move on.  Kenya at over 40 years old needs to continue with the therapy if she is in fact getting it and continue to live her life to the fullest.  Life is too short to waste it on hurtful things.

Edited January 14, 2016 by swankie

[SpringTulips]

I have read stories and watched tv shows where people who have been adopted have a never ending urge to have some kind of relationship with their biological parents, the mother in particular.  I often judged, thinking, why would someone go out of their way to want to know someone who did not want to raise or even have contact with them. It also seemed to me at times it was almost disrespectful to the family that raised them.

 

But then, my cousin, who is 51 now and was adopted by my biological uncle and his wife, started seeking out her birth mother recently, having never had any contact with her.  I know now that those longings for connections must be really strong, even though I cannot relate.

[RCharter]

Adoption is the logical choice for the family that won't keep the baby and don't condone killing it. The Grants offered to raise their progeny. I haven't heard any evidence to suggest that Patricia defied her parents in accepting that option. Anyway as usual Kenya keeps zeroing in on her mother, but what about Grandpa and Grandma Moore. What about all those other Moore family members? When did these "you don't exist" meetings take place? How many times were they together? Someone as expressive as Kenya needs to go beyond her soundbite complaint.

 

Dang, I really need to proofread.

I did, I heard that Patricia's father didn't want an illegitimate child in his house and that he wanted the closed adoption.  This is why the Grants were left begging Patricia to go against her family and let them raise the child.  A child that would be raised by a grandmother....who lived in the same area as the Moores.  By a family that would always be around with their illegitimate child...by a family that could tell Kenya who the other side of her family was.  So yes, Patricia went against her parents and chose to let Ronald's side of the family raise Kenya.  That was her choice.  

 

I realize that the next tactic will be to say that the Grants may not be telling the truth.  However, the Grants version of the story is the one we have, and it makes sense -- therefore I believe it.  If a man doesn't want "illegitimate" children in his house, there is every reason to believe he is doing that to protect his reputation.  His family name is not protected when there is an illegitimate child in the local area that is connected to his family and to his daughter.  A child that can show up and embarrass him.  So, his push for a closed adoption where there is no risk of any of that happening makes sense.

 

Yes, as usual Kenya is zeroing in on the one person that should have at least acknowledged her existence for 40 years but acted as though she didn't exist.  And how would whatever her grandparents do make anything Patricia did right?  And why would it be reasonable to expect more from grandparents than you would from parents?   I also don't think this is a court, so I don't need times, dates and receipts from every single time her mother treated her as though she didn't exist.

 

So, I guess now the idea is that it either didn't happen, or it didn't happen enough for her to be hurt by it?  Or that, because others may have engaged in the same behavior it forgives Patricia's shitty behavior for 40+ years?

Edited January 14, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

 

I know people who were physically abused by their mothers and were removed from the situation and had to grow up in foster care who "got over it" better than Kenya has.  Sometimes you just have to accept that which you cannot change and move on.  Kenya at over 40 years old needs to continue with the therapy if she is in fact getting it and continue to live her life to the fullest.  Life is too short to waste it on hurtful things.

So again, Kenya has to "get over it" but not Patricia.  We can't even expect Patricia to "get over it" enough to not lock a door in someone's face, not to "get over it enough" to act like a decent human being and acknowledge the existence of her child.  But Kenya should just "shake it off"  And honestly, those mental scars can sometimes be worse than the physical ones.  You'll probably heal from physical abuse, and it sucks, but those wounds will scab over and likely heal.  Patricia's refusal to even acknowledge Kenya leaves her wounds open.

 

I don't condone physical violence, but I don't understand comparing it to what Kenya is going through.  Having gotten the belt quite a few times as a child, I can say that when it came time for punishment I preferred the belt to the silent treatment.  If I got the belt, there was physical pain, but then my parents were over it.  If they were engaging in some other form of emotional punishment it hurt me worse.

 

And I'm not sure how Kenya has done so poorly with "getting over it."  It has affected her deeply, but in spite of that she has gone to college, obtained a degree, became Miss USA, had her movies and is probably making a very good living.  She hasn't given birth to any of her own illegitimate children, she hasn't married the first man to come out of prison or anything like that.  She is gorgeous and keeps herself physically healthy.  There are many people who have had benefit of both parents who haven't done as well.

[swankie]

I don't condone physical violence, but I don't understand comparing it to what Kenya is going through.  Having gotten the belt quite a few times as a child, I can say that when it came time for punishment I preferred the belt to the silent treatment.  If I got the belt, there was physical pain, but then my parents were over it.  If they were engaging in some other form of emotional punishment it hurt me worse.

 

 

My coworker and good friend wasn't just whipped with a belt, she was beaten, left alone for hours and sometimes days as a 5 year old and left to fend for herself and a lot worse before someone called CPS and had her and her 2 siblings removed from that dysfunctional home.  She was separated from her little brother for years and once she became of age, she visited her poor excuse of a mother once in prison and never wasted any time on the woman again, even when she heard that her mother got out of prison.  Not once has the woman tried to find any of her children.  I would say their situation was way worse than what Kenya had to deal with, yet my friend put herself through college, finally was reunited with her little brother and helped him and their sister through school and now has a husband and two of the sweetest kids you ever want to meet and she accomplished it all without wasting any time on the sack of shit she was unfortunate enough to have been born to.  After initially telling me her story, she has never whined and stewed about her mother the way Kenya does.  I'm sure there are millions of situations like this.  Kenya doesn't know how good she really has it.

 

I did, I heard that Patricia's father didn't want an illegitimate child in his house and that he wanted the closed adoption.

 

 

I heard Ronald say to Kenya that her grandfather didn't want any more illegitimate kids in his house, but I didn't hear either of them mention him saying anything about wanting a closed adoption.

 

So, I guess now the idea is that it either didn't happen, or it didn't happen enough for her to be hurt by it?  Or that, because others may have engaged in the same behavior it forgives Patricia's shitty behavior for 40+ years?

 

 

I don't understand why you keep saying that people are forgiving Patricia's shitty behavior.  All I'm saying is that Kenya needs to just leave the woman alone and stop putting herself through the misery and pain she feels every time she tries to confront her.  I and I think everyone else here thinks Patricia is a heartless, poor excuse of a mother.  No one, at least not me, is giving her a pass at all.

Edited January 14, 2016 by swankie

[LIMOM]

My coworker and good friend wasn't just whipped with a belt, she was beaten, left alone for hours and sometimes days as a 5 year old and left to fend for herself and a lot worse before someone called CPS and had her and her 2 siblings removed from that dysfunctional home.  She was separated from her little brother for years and once she became of age, she visited her poor excuse of a mother once in prison and never wasted any time on the woman again, even when she heard that her mother got out of prison.  Not once has the woman tried to find any of her children.  I would say their situation was way worse than what Kenya had to deal with, yet my friend put herself through college, finally was reunited with her little brother and helped him and their sister through school and now has a husband and two of the sweetest kids you ever want to meet and she accomplished it all without wasting any time on the sack of shit she was unfortunate enough to have been born to.  After initially telling me her story, she has never whined and stewed about her mother the way Kenya does.  I'm sure there are millions of situations like this.  Kenya doesn't know how good she really has it.

 

 

I heard Ronald say to Kenya that her grandfather didn't want any more illegitimate kids in his house, but I didn't hear either of them mention him saying anything about wanting a closed adoption.

 

 

I don't understand why you keep saying that people are forgiving Patricia's shitty behavior.  All I'm saying is that Kenya needs to just leave the woman alone and stop putting herself through the misery and pain she feels every time she tries to confront her.  I and I think everyone else here thinks Patricia is a heartless, poor excuse of a mother.  No one, at least not me, is giving her a pass at all.

In the story about your friend, the main difference is that your friend had more control over the situation ( as an adult, of course) and knew for sure that her mother was a POS.

Plus some people are stronger than other and are able to realize that sometimes,,one is better off without their bio family.

Kenya while successful in her professional life, does not have the strenght nor the wherewithal to move on, IMO.

She comes from a place where she only thinks that she is still not wanted, she needs to see that she has love in her life and that Doris is her mother, IMO.

Easier said than done.

[Celia Rubenstein]

  I'm sure there are millions of situations like this.  Kenya doesn't know how good she really has it.

I don't think it is fair to downplay the pain one person is feeling just because someone somewhere else may have had it worse. Because let's face it ... there is always going to be someone somewhere else who has it worse. That fact doesn't negate the pain of people who are suffering slightly less than some other even more unfortunate souls.

And I do believe Kenya is suffering. I can't imagine what it must have felt like for her as a child when her mother stared right through her like she wasn't there. That experience must have bent that little girl's soul completely out of shape. And she clearly seems to carry those emotional scars to this day.

I think Kenya's persistence with her mother now is simply an attempt to repair that old damage. She doesn't really want an apology or an explanation. Kenya knows by now Patricia is not really sorry or she would have said so and stopped ignoring her by now. And Kenya already knows why she was given up - she was simply unwanted. And I think deep inside, Kenya knows why her mother ignores her to this day ... Patricia just doesn't love Kenya and doesn't want her in her life because Kenya is a mistake she made 40 years ago that she just wants to forget. It's not that complicated and Kenya is not dumb.

So why does Kenya continue to try and connect with her mother? I think it's for the same reason so many other abused and neglected children seem to inexplicably want to have anything to do with the parents who mistreated them .... they want to rewrite their past. To an undamaged person it just makes no sense. But to a child who has been abused or neglected there is often an overwhelming desire to "undo" the damage by having some kind of magically different relationship with the parent. And it works about as well as you might expect, unfortunately.

I suspect Kenya has been unsuccessful in her romantic relationships because she is seeking out people who make her feel the way she felt as a child. It's another way kids who grew up with problems like hers attempt to recreate their childhood environment so they can manufacture a different outcome. It rarely works, either.

It's easy to say Kenya should just get over it, forget her mother, move on, or feel lucky that she didn't have it worse. But that is to ignore how deeply scarred she is. You don't just "get over" such painful early experiences that pound into your mind how unwanted you are, how easy you are to ignore, how little you matter. It takes years of therapy from a well-trained counselor to even put a dent in such ingrained thought patterns and behavioral habits. And from the looks of it, I don't think Kenya has even begun the process yet. Because if she had, I doubt she would be knocking on that woman's door. She would know there was nothing behind it that was going to be of any help to her at all.

[RCharter]

My coworker and good friend wasn't just whipped with a belt, she was beaten, left alone for hours and sometimes days as a 5 year old and left to fend for herself and a lot worse before someone called CPS and had her and her 2 siblings removed from that dysfunctional home.  She was separated from her little brother for years and once she became of age, she visited her poor excuse of a mother once in prison and never wasted any time on the woman again, even when she heard that her mother got out of prison.  Not once has the woman tried to find any of her children.  I would say their situation was way worse than what Kenya had to deal with, yet my friend put herself through college, finally was reunited with her little brother and helped him and their sister through school and now has a husband and two of the sweetest kids you ever want to meet and she accomplished it all without wasting any time on the sack of shit she was unfortunate enough to have been born to.  After initially telling me her story, she has never whined and stewed about her mother the way Kenya does.  I'm sure there are millions of situations like this.  Kenya doesn't know how good she really has it.

 

 

I heard Ronald say to Kenya that her grandfather didn't want any more illegitimate kids in his house, but I didn't hear either of them mention him saying anything about wanting a closed adoption.

 

 

I don't understand why you keep saying that people are forgiving Patricia's shitty behavior.  All I'm saying is that Kenya needs to just leave the woman alone and stop putting herself through the misery and pain she feels every time she tries to confront her.  I and I think everyone else here thinks Patricia is a heartless, poor excuse of a mother.  No one, at least not me, is giving her a pass at all.

 So, your friend actually got some level of acknowledgment and closure.  These are things Kenya never got from her mother.  She was treated as a non-entity.  So while both situations are bad, they are wildly different.  All Kenya is asking for is the same conversation that your friend had with her mother.  I think your friend's situation is very, very different than Kenya's.   

 

And now Kenya is "whining" for being hurt that her mother never acknowledged her and acted as though she never existed or looked right through her?  Wow.   A situation isn't "good" because there is worse things out there in the world.

 

And while your friend may not have spoken to you about her situation very often, you can't know that she doesn't talk about it at length with other friends that she felt were less likely to refer to it as "whining" and "stewing."  Not that its bad, but I think we all have friends that meet different needs, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I have friends that I would discuss deep issues with, because they have a gift for compassion and empathy.  There are other friends that I would prefer to go shopping with, or talk about superficial things with because they have a great eye for fashion or they are really up on pop culture or can make me laugh.  Both types of friends are important, because sometimes you do want to talk through your feelings, and sometimes you just want to shop.  But, I know if I have a "shake it off" friend, I'm less likely to want to discuss certain issues with them, and its not an indictment of them. I have some friends that fit both, but I also have some friends that are in one category or the other.  I'm only saying that you may not know exactly how often your friend discusses her past, so its hard to compare her to Kenya, since you only know how often she talks about her situation with you.

 

It doesn't make sense that Patricia's father, who didn't want illegitimate children in the house, might have wanted one living in the area, knowing where he and his family lived and knowing who her mother was?  If the point of not having illegitimate children running around is to not sully the family name, then that doesn't make sense.  It wouldn't make sense that Ronald's family had to beg to take Kenya, if thats what Patricia's father wanted.  If Patricia's father/family wanted the child to go to Ronald, and this father had so much power, there wouldn't have been the need to "beg" anyone.  If Patricia was doing whatever it took to stay in the good graces of her family, than she picked closed adoption at their insistence.  And had to be "begged" out of it, because not doing the closed adoption would go against her family's wishes.  To try to argue otherwise doesn't make any sort of sense to me.  

Edited January 14, 2016 by RCharter