S08.E10: Trouble On The Family Tree

Aging Goth · January 12, 2016

If you worked where I work, you wouldn't bat an eye.

After7Only · January 12, 2016

Patricia attended MOORE family events. The Grant family was supposed to be in Texas. No one expected Kenya to run to Detroit at 12. Only her aunt appears to have wanted contact. And Lorie might've just wanted a child to raise.

She attended Moore family events, knowing Kenya MOORE would be there. She did this as a college educated person with a background in childhood education. I get she may not have felt equipped to raise her, but It just does compute that she could not at least acknowledge her child.

My understanding was that Kenya was raised by her paternal grandmother in Detroit. At 12 she was sent to her father in Tx, but ran away back to the only home she'd known with her grandmother.

Iguessnot · January 12, 2016

I'd like to clear up something about the social norms of the time as they unfolded around me. I'm a bit older than Kenya but even then, the social breakdown was coming. Teen pregnancy was looked down on but it was becoming more common even among the middle class. It's a tide we have never recovered from. I remember being a teen and riding the CTA buses around town and encountering more and more teen mothers. What was more horrifying was how these young mothers talked to their kids. They were harsh, vicious and had no problems cussing out a one year old in public. Even at that age I feared what our future would hold with our future generations being raised like this. Kenya ought to glad her father loved her enough even back then to claim her and provide her a loving family.

This is what I see. This relationship is still crucial to Kenya even now. Patricia ain't feeling it. However at one point Patricia reached out to Kenya and Kenya rebuffed her. If Kenya thinks she is the better person, she should offer an apology to Patricia for refusing that one outreach we've been told about. Let the woman know she can approach Kenya without a payment extracted. I don't know what's wrong with Patricia, but Kenya needs to realize she can't demand an act of penance from this woman before starting the conversation. Good luck to the both of them.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Iguessnot

WireWrap · January 12, 2016

I'd like to clear up something about the social norms of the time as they unfolded around me. I'm a bit older than Kenya but even then, the social breakdown was coming. Teen pregnancy was looked down on but it was becoming more common even among the middle class. It's a tide we have never recovered from. I remember being a teen and riding the CTA buses around town and encountering more and more teen mothers. What was more horrifying was how these young mothers talked to their kids. They were harsh, vicious and had no problems cussing out a one year old in public. Even at that age I feared what our future would hold with are future generations being raised like this. Kenya ought to glad her father loved her enough even back then to claim her and provide her a loving family.

This is what I see. This relationship is still crucial to Kenya even now. Patricia ain't feeling it. However at one point Patricia reached out to Kenya and Kenya rebuffed her. If Kenya thinks she is the better person, she should offer an apology to Patricia for refusing that one outreach we've been told about. Let the woman know she can approach Kenya without a payment extracted. I don't know what's wrong with Patricia, but Kenya needs to realize she can't demand an act of penance from this woman before starting the conversation. Good luck to the both of them.

According to an article, posted a few pages back, written right after Kenya won Miss USA, Patricia said that the lines of communication are (or at least were back then) OPEN but that Kenya demanded an apology from Patricia BEFORE she would talk to her and Patricia doesn't feel she owes Kenya an apology. So it is Kenya setting the rules for them to talk, not Patricia. Also, we have no idea if Patricia completely refused to talk to Kenya at these Moore family get togethers or if she did so because, maybe, Kenya kept calling her Mom or asking "WHY" during these encounters. We just don't have enough information about any of this other than Kenya's/her father's side of this pitiful tale.

Maybe we will learn a bit more next episode when Kenya/Lori have their talk. BUT whether or not we learn more, Kenya's paternal family and Lori did Kenya a disservice to her in NOT getting her counseling/therapy when she was a kid/teen and as an adult Kenya should have sought it out herself so that she could move forward in life instead of always falling backwards into the same painful pit she finds herself in as a middle aged adult woman. JMO

zoeysmom · January 12, 2016

I feel bad for Kenya. Her mom is no different from a deadbeat dad that gets a girl pregnant and leaves her family to raise the child while he goes on about his business. The least she could've done was acknowledge Kenya when they were in mixed family company. What a cold hearted bitch.

How about help support her financially. Patricia went on got an education and a job and it is apparent the Grants struggled. She was legally obligated to support her child. There was no adoption.

I feel for Patricia and do not know what was going on in her head or heart now or then. She is 61 years old and it is time to make an effort. Maybe she will finally sit down and explain her feelings to someone. It sounded kind of sad she never had anymore children but chose a career helping children.

Abortion really wasn't a legal option when Patricia got pregnant so her choices were limited. Just a very off situation.

sunsheyen · January 12, 2016

What does "HQ" mean? Now that I think about it, that "rec" framing that is sppsd to indicate the vidcam is running looked very post-production to me.

High Quality. basically, not some little GoPro they carried along but an actual show camera with an operator. Didn't seem like it was just their shared private footage.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

Patricia attended MOORE family events. The Grant family was supposed to be in Texas. No one expected Kenya to run to Detroit at 12. Only her aunt appears to have wanted contact. And Lorie might've just wanted a child to raise.

Yes, this is all Kenya's fault for running away to the only family she knew at 12. We expect such a high level of maturity from a 12 year old that has been shunned and wanted a relationship with her mother, but we can't expect anything from a 15 year old that decided to create a bad situation. There is nothing wrong with Kenya attending family events because KENYA did nothing wrong. If Patricia didn't want to see her, she shouldn't have shown up and pretended not to see her, she should have stayed at home. Showing up and pretending that your child is invisible is cruel.

swankie · January 12, 2016

As I said, I will wait to see/hear the entire conversation between Kenya and Lori because Bravo LOVES to bait and switch us through editing with these previews all the time. LOL Something tells me that Kenya put Lori in the middle of this, maybe by getting Patricia's address from her without her knowledge BUT I will wait and see.

I agree it would be better if Patricia let Kenya know HER side of the story, either in a phone call or even in a letter but that isn't going to happen. Kenya needs to get some heavy duty therapy to get past this, something that should have happened long ago, in her teens, and all the adults in her life should have gotten it for her back then. JMO

Where I'm conflicted is, I have read supposed interviews with Patricia where supposedly she said the lines of communication have always been open and that Kenya is the one who didn't want to engage until her mother apologized to her, which her mother refuses to do. This alleged interview was done in 1993. That's the year Kenya won Miss USA. I would imagine that if there was any interaction with her mother, and Kenya has held all of this resentment for all of these years, those interactions were probably very ugly.

Edited January 12, 2016 by swankie

RCharter · January 12, 2016

According to an article, posted a few pages back, written right after Kenya won Miss USA, Patricia said that the lines of communication are (or at least were back then) OPEN but that Kenya demanded an apology from Patricia BEFORE she would talk to her and Patricia doesn't feel she owes Kenya an apology. So it is Kenya setting the rules for them to talk, not Patricia. Also, we have no idea if Patricia completely refused to talk to Kenya at these Moore family get togethers or if she did so because, maybe, Kenya kept calling her Mom or asking "WHY" during these encounters. We just don't have enough information about any of this other than Kenya's/her father's side of this pitiful tale.

Maybe we will learn a bit more next episode when Kenya/Lori have their talk. BUT whether or not we learn more, Kenya's paternal family and Lori did Kenya a disservice to her in NOT getting her counseling/therapy when she was a kid/teen and as an adult Kenya should have sought it out herself so that she could move forward in life instead of always falling backwards into the same painful pit she finds herself in as a middle aged adult woman. JMO

Of course Kenya demanded an apology. This is a woman who acted like she didn't exist for what had to be over 20 years at that point. And suddenly that Kenya won Miss USA she wants to talk? Never mind that in your 20's people are more likely to make rash decisions, but asking for an apology before allowing someone who wouldn't even acknowledge your existence doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me at all. And frankly, Patricia does owe her an apology. Kenya didn't do anything to deserve that treatment.

Kenya set the rules for them to talk 20 years ago when she won Miss USA. Now she just wants someone to open the door instead of having it locked in her face. Unless Patricia is also a half-wit she should know that. And even if Kenya was demanding an apology, Patricia owes her one. But she isn't, she just wants to talk.

swankie · January 12, 2016

I don't think a 16 year old boy is so much more sophisticated than a 15 year old girl as to be a master of manipulation.

Really? I have known many a 16 year old boy who was able to play mind games on 15 year old girls to get them to consent to having sex before they are ready. All that's needed are the words, "You know I love you." This has only been going on for...centuries!

Watermelon · January 12, 2016

I understand that but what I don"t get is her bio mother resistance in offering her apology or asking for forgiveness.

Does it make sense.

Patricia isn't sorry.

I've never met my father, and if he came up trying to say anything to me, I'd have a whole hell of a lot of questions and a ton of shade, but I miss the logic of demanding he apologize to me.

If Patricia was sorry, she'd say so without any urging or coercion from Kenya.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

Really? I have known many a 16 year old boy who was able to play mind games on 15 year old girls to get them to consent to having sex before they are ready. All that's needed are the words, "You know I love you." This has only been going on for...centuries!

I've actually known more 15 year old girls that are able to bamboozle 16 year old boys. Girls mature faster and are generally more complex, which is why, much of the time they are not interested in 16 year old boys at all, but in older men......who can easily manipulate them. It's pretty widely accepted that girls mature faster than boys.

When I worked in the group home setting, it was part of the reason very few people wanted to work with teen girls. There was a certain element of sophisticated manipulation that you could expect from some of the girls. Whereas with boys, what you saw was what you got, which is generally the case with boys.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

swankie · January 12, 2016

In this case, I do believe Lauren is milking the "I'm pregnant, I can't do stand up on the red carpet." Please believe if she had a regular job, she'd be at that office collecting the packages and not talking about "why can't I stay home? I'm 4 months pregnant!" Girl, bye. I'm gonna need to hear you're having a troubled pregnancy, are sick off your ass, you can't get up, before I'm going to sympathize. Otherwise, my having 3 kids under five, taking 6 week of maternity leave the first time, 2 weeks the next, walking two kids to daycare at while kicking 200lbs in the sumo-looking 8 month's pregnant ass before catching a train for 45 minutes to get to work by 8am EVERY DAY is not even trying to hear it. I'm just sayin', you do what you gotta do.

It's funny how we have two pregnant people on this show and one doesn't have a high risk pregnancy but doesn't want to work and the other does have a high risk pregnancy, and doesn't want to stop working. Lauren needs to use Kandi as inspiration.

I wonder why then -- since the Moores didn't seem to want to be part of her life when she was born -- that she was given the last name Moore (her mother's name) rather than Grant (her father's name)??

Back in the 70's, at least where I'm from, you couldn't give your child it's father's last name unless you were married to him before the child was born.

Sad thing is I'm not sure why we as women are so accepting of that whole "you do what you gotta do" mentality and allow our pregnancies to be compromised because what? It's okay for employers to be dismissive of a women with child? I get it is what it is but I just can't get on board with it being NOT OKAY to want to take it easy when you're pregnant. I know that in this day and age we keep on trucking but what I find offensive is that anyone OTHER than the pregnant person is in a position to judge how much harder they should be working. And on the flip side I really resent Kandi acting all offended at the idea that she should be mindful about her workload during her highrisk pregnancy. That she's rolling her eyes and wanting to prove something isn't to be commended cause nothings worth that much that you have to put your pregnancy on the back burner. That child is your main priority not showing the world that you can still burn the candle at both ends. Completely ridiculous.

Yours Truly, I believe you are preaching to the choir; at least where I'm concerned you are. Unfortunately, us mothers were dealt a bad hand when a little thing called "women's liberation" came into being. Women wanted to be treated the same and paid the same as men in the workplace, so when it came to pregnancy, we were told that we should be happy with 6 to 8 weeks of unpaid maternity leave after the baby was born and only to be able to take it easy before the baby was born with a doctor's note stating that you can't work and need to take your leave early, also without pay. This is what I had to deal with when I had my kids. Most employers (almost always male) felt that a woman's place was in the home but when so many women were faced with divorce or were widowed and had to go into the workplace, women's lib almost assured that we would get no special treatment in order to have the "privilege" of earning our own money. We were told that it's not our employer's responsibility to have to pay for our decision to have a baby. This is the sad truth!

Why does Phaedra act like Todd is working on contingency? Nothing he does is dependent on whether the video is released or not. With all her 'jobs' how would she like it if clients only paid if they won their cases or got the highly specific outcome they desired and only paid if they got it?

That's funny, because just about every lawyer advertisement I see on tv says just that; that if they don't win the case, you don't have to pay. That's why I think a lot of them won't take cases they aren't almost guaranteed they will win. lol

I've actually known more 15 year old girls that are able to bamboozle 16 year old boys. Girls mature faster and are generally more complex, which is why, much of the time they are not interested in 16 year old boys at all, but in older men......who can easily manipulate them. It's pretty widely accepted that girls mature faster than boys.

15 year old girls are way more mature now than they were in the 60's and 70's. Times have changed as far as how sex is discussed. Back then, some girls only learned about sex in Sex Education class. Most boys had that "man to man" talk with their dad's but many parents found it uncomfortable to talk about it with their daughters back then so young girls were very immature in those things. That's why they were so easily manipulated. Lack of education.

Edited January 12, 2016 by swankie

swankie · January 12, 2016

If, as other said, carrying and birthing the child were her biggest option in the 70's for a 15 year old girl in the South, she didn't do anything out of the ordinary. And if she wanted to never even acknowledge her child's existence and make her child suffer either she should have moved or she should have pushed for the out of family adoption. She did neither. While her mistakes are understandable, making a child suffer for her mistakes is not understandable, its mean. No one was asking Patricia for a maternal bond, they were asking her to be a decent human being, sit down, and have a conversation or at least explain to Kenya what the deal was.

I don't know where you think a 15 year old unwed mother was going to go live away from her family. She gave Kenya up so she could stay with her family. Her father made it clear according to Kenya's father, no illegitimate children would be accepted in that house. She would have been kicked out. I also think a lot is being assumed here. We don't know that Patricia didn't push for an out of family adoption, in fact, Kenya herself said that her mother wanted to put her up for adoption. You cannot give your baby up for adoption if the father doesn't consent. The father's family took Kenya and raised her. That was their doing, not Patricia's. And I have a feeling that a maternal bond is exactly what Kenya is looking for. She should have accepted the crumbs her mother mustered up the gumption to give her in 1993 instead of being stubborn and demanding an apology. Even if it was after Kenya made good and won Miss USA, it would have been a start. Sometimes pride just gets in the way.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

I don't know where you think a 15 year old unwed mother was going to go live away from her family. She gave Kenya up so she could stay with her family. Her father made it clear according to Kenya's father, no illegitimate children would be accepted in that house. She would have been kicked out. I also think a lot is being assumed here. We don't know that Patricia didn't push for an out of family adoption, in fact, Kenya herself said that her mother wanted to put her up for adoption. You cannot give your baby up for adoption if the father doesn't consent. The father's family took Kenya and raised her. That was their doing, not Patricia's. And I have a feeling that a maternal bond is exactly what Kenya is looking for. She should have accepted the crumbs her mother mustered up the gumption to give her in 1993 instead of being stubborn and demanding an apology. Even if it was after Kenya made good and won Miss USA, it would have been a start. Sometimes pride just gets in the way.

Easy, go live with an aunt. This is what many, many people did with mothers who had unwanted pregnancies and they didn't want it to soil the family name. You got shipped off to some out of state family member, had your baby and came back after your "vacation." That sort of thing has gone on, before, during and after the 70s. You didn't publicly embarass your family and no one was the wiser.

We have no idea why she gave Kenya up. Sounds like it was the easiest path forward for her. And I wouldn't blame her for that, I would blame her for coming to family gatherings where Kenya was going to be, for years and years past her adulthood and simply looking through Kenya. That's cruel and thats making a child suffer for your own life choices.

Actually, there are some states where a mother still can give away their child without the fathers consent. There is a pretty well known case right now in Utah, where the dad had no idea his child was being given up for adoption and the courts in Utah essentially shut him down. And this is 40+ years later, when there is such a thing as fathers rights. So, do I really believe it would have been difficult in the 70's, in the South, with a teenage pregnancy and paternalistic judges? No, not at all. Which is why I believe they begged Patricia to keep the child, because there was little to no legal recourse for them. A judge has wide latitude to do what is in the best interest of the child, and unless there is clear error their decisions are not subject to additional review. Patricia likely could have easily pushed for a closed adoption and gotten her way. There was no other real reason for Kenya's family to "beg" Patricia not to adopt out the child, if there was no way for her to actually adopt out the child. That doesn't make any sense.

Kenya deserves an apology, and I don't fault her for asking for one. That woman went out of her way to be cruel to a child that did nothing to deserve it.

And yet we still expect more from Kenya, who faced a lifetime of rejection for something she never did, than her mother who basically ignored and rejected her, but decided to become involved once Kenya had a little fame.

swankie · January 12, 2016

We have no idea why she gave Kenya up. Sounds like it was the easiest path forward for her. And I wouldn't blame her for that, I would blame her for coming to family gatherings where Kenya was going to be, for years and years past her adulthood and simply looking through Kenya. That's cruel and thats making a child suffer for your own life choices.

I know it hasn't been addressed on the show yet, but I think aunt Lori has something to do with Kenya being at those Moore family gatherings and it was against her sister's wishes. Kenya wasn't raised by the Moore's. She was raised by Ronald's mother. I doubt Ronald's mother was attending Moore family gatherings. I think aunt Lori wanted a relationship with her niece and made a situation that was uncomfortable for Patricia. I think that is why aunt Lori doesn't want to get in the middle. She put herself there when Kenya was little and caused a big problem that never went away. That's just my opinion.

Easy, go live with an aunt.

We have no idea of knowing if there was an aunt to go live with. Patricia didn't want to leave home. Ronald said she got rid of her "problem" so she could stay at home with her folks. Sounds to me like Patricia's father was the biggest villain in this sad tale. If he hadn't been such an insensitive ogre and supported his daughter in her dilemma, she might not have given Kenya up.

Edited January 12, 2016 by swankie

bref · January 12, 2016

"Women's liberation" is the reason a woman can no longer be fired for being pregnant, or receives any leave time at all, frankly. The rest of your assertions I will have to let go unanswered, as this is not the proper forum for that, but what you refer to as truth is, in fact, simply your opinion.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

15 year old girls are way more mature now than they were in the 60's and 70's. Times have changed as far as how sex is discussed. Back then, some girls only learned about sex in Sex Education class. Most boys had that "man to man" talk with their dad's but many parents found it uncomfortable to talk about it with their daughters back then so young girls were very immature in those things. That's why they were so easily manipulated. Lack of education.

Oh, so now 15 year old girls as a group have fundamentally changed since the 70's.....I see.

But I cannot agree, because its not a matter of how sex is discussed, manipulation is more of a mental function and how you use the things you have to get the things you want Knowing or not knowing the mechanics of sex doesn't make you any more or any less manipulative or open to manipulation. But knowing that a boy wants sex from you allows you to know that you can manipulate him to get something you want from him. Generally, its simply knowing that a guy wants sex that opens the door of manipulation, not knowing exactly where all the parts go.

For example, I may not know what is so great about this jar of binder clips that I have, but I know if someone really wants my binder clips that I have something to hold over their head. Now, perhaps 30 years later, all the girls will know what are so great about binder clips, and why someone would really want them, but its not that knowledge that makes me able to use my binder clips as leverage. Its simply knowing that someone really wants my binder clips.

I know it hasn't been addressed on the show yet, but I think aunt Lori has something to do with Kenya being at those Moore family gatherings and it was against her sister's wishes. Kenya wasn't raised by the Moore's. She was raised by Ronald's mother. I doubt Ronald's mother was attending Moore family gatherings. I think aunt Lori wanted a relationship with her niece and made a situation that was uncomfortable for Patricia. I think that is why aunt Lori doesn't want to get in the middle. She put herself there when Kenya was little and caused a big problem that never went away. That's just my opinion.

No, it hasn't been addressed. And if her sister didn't want to face Kenya at those functions she should have stayed home or found a reason to be somewhere else. Especially since it was Patricia who created the situation in the first place, the burden is on her to stay away. If there was any discomfort in the situation it was from Patricia's own making, so she should have been the one to bear the discomfort, not make a child feel like dirt because of her choices.

swankie · January 12, 2016

"Women's liberation" is the reason a woman can no longer be fired for being pregnant, or receives any leave time at all, frankly. The rest of your assertions I will have to let go unanswered, as this is not the proper forum for that, but what you refer to as truth is, in fact, simply your opinion.

What I refer to as truth is what happened in my situation. No special treatment was allowed to be given to any women just because they were pregnant. An employer could and often did fire a woman if she couldn't perform her normal duties and pregnancy was no exception. I never got a penny for being on my maternity leaves. If I didn't feel well and couldn't come to work, it was treated as any other sick day. If you had too many sick days, you could indeed be fired. This was in the early 70's. A lot of companies resented women being in the work place, period! And I was told exactly what I stated: An employer was not responsible to compensate you for your decision to become pregnant. Don't get me wrong, I was stating that women's liberation wasn't always good for mothers. Not women in general. A lot of perks came out of the movement. But one of the downfalls was that women got no special treatment for being pregnant. As years went by, it got better. At my last job the men were actually able to take "maternity leave" when their wives went into labor. That was unheard of when my children were born. In fact, if you were a single mother, you just went 6 weeks without pay. And if you had complications and couldn't come back to work after the 6 week period, they could actually terminate you and hire someone else in your position. Yes, you could fight it, but who had the funds to do that after going 6 weeks without pay. And even if it is just my opinion, I have every right to say it. Thanks!

Oh, so now 15 year old girls as a group have fundamentally changed since the 70's.....I see.

In my opinion, yes they have. 15 year olds are way more open about their sexuality and aren't shunned for it like they were in the 60's and 70's. I remember a girl being kicked out of school for wearing a mini skirt back then. If you got pregnant, you could not stay in school. You had to go to special schools for pregnant teens. Yes, young girls as a whole were different back then if you ask me.

Edited January 12, 2016 by swankie

Ubiquitous · January 12, 2016

Just for the record, I have no problem with grocery store flowers. Paying more doesn't keep them alive longer. I'll show myself out now.

I had forgotten about Porsha's remark about getting "grocery store flowers". What a low-class ingrate.

While I can sympathize with Kenya's situation vis-a-vis her mother, what sympathy I had for her went out the window when she and her buddy decided to snot about Walter one last time, first making fun of his profession, then his looks, and then calling him a liar for saying he and Kenya weren't dating. He's said that from the get-go, and there was nothing in his body english, his words or anything else that indicated to me he had the slightest bit of affection for her. And not only that, he's no longer a part of the show so she can snot and smear to her heart's content and her entourage will back it up.

I had forgotten about that scene as well. Bad-mouthing your imaginary boyfriend is a rotten thing to do.

High Quality. basically, not some little GoPro they carried along but an actual show camera with an operator. Didn't seem like it was just their shared private footage.

Ah, I understand now and agree.

swankie · January 12, 2016

I had forgotten about Porsha's remark about getting "grocery store flowers". What a low-class ingrate.

Porsha didn't make the remark. Lauren did.

LIMOM · January 12, 2016

Where I'm conflicted is, I have read supposed interviews with Patricia where supposedly she said the lines of communication have always been open and that Kenya is the one who didn't want to engage until her mother apologized to her, which her mother refuses to do. This alleged interview was done in 1993. That's the year Kenya won Miss USA. I would imagine that if there was any interaction with her mother, and Kenya has held all of this resentment for all of these years, those interactions were probably very ugly.

If these events would not have been confirmed thru the years by Aunt Lori and later on, her father, I would have never believed that someone would have been so cruel to do this to Kenya.

When she said to the interviewer that she was praying for Kenya, I kind of got an idea of the type of person that she is.

Poor Kenya, she was doomed at birth and yet here she is on my tv.

Patricia isn't sorry.

I've never met my father, and if he came up trying to say anything to me, I'd have a whole hell of a lot of questions and a ton of shade, but I miss the logic of demanding he apologize to me.

If Patricia was sorry, she'd say so without any urging or coercion from Kenya.

Because it would simply help heal Kenya.

And Kenya unlike you, knew her bio mom.

Therefore, could ask an apology for ignoring her all these years for example.

Edited January 12, 2016 by LIMOM

Aging Goth · January 12, 2016

So many folks here are thinking about 15 year olds today and trying to apply that logic to the 70s. However, in the 70s (my era; yeah I am really old) there was no Rowe vs Wade, no teen mom reality series, no family acceptance of a baby born out of wedlock (even for adult women) and no actual therapy for women having to make such life changing decisions.

This, especially in the south, was considered taboo and something no one should talk about. There were no sex education in the schools at that time and I even had friends who had sex on the regular, thinking kissing while on your period is how you got pregnant. My best friend got pregnant and she was told to run around the block three times and the baby would go away. Yes, she did that. When it didn't work, she drank Drano because she was told that would abort the baby. She nearly died but the baby was still healthy. She then had her boyfriend punch her in the stomach and push her down the steps. She delivered a healthy baby while she was in the hospital for a few months. She was 16. This was how most girls thought and acted during that time. Families considered you an outright slut is you had a baby out of wedlock and pretty much disowned you.

So most wayard girls found a midwife back in the rural country who was good with a coat hanger. Most midwives weren't and many a young girl died,but it was the way it was until Rowe vs Wade put a stop to illegal abortions in the early 80s This was the era Patricia grew up in and this was the type of thinking that had many Patricia's giving up or aborting their children and had parents who encouraged them to just forget they even had a child and move on, pretending they were virgins when they eventually marry. Most were damaged like I feel Patricia was and probably why she chose the profession she is in to compensate for her actions.

It is not just black and white with this situation. there are layers we may never be privy to that affect both Kenya and her mother.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Aging Goth

RCharter · January 12, 2016

In my opinion, yes they have. 15 year olds are way more open about their sexuality and aren't shunned for it like they were in the 60's and 70's. I remember a girl being kicked out of school for wearing a mini skirt back then. If you got pregnant, you could not stay in school. You had to go to special schools for pregnant teens. Yes, young girls as a whole were different back then if you ask me.

So then back in the 70's girls knew guys wanted sex, but didn't have as much access to it. That sounds like the perfect thing to manipulate someone with. High demand and low supply. So, I don't think this has any bearing on the ability of girls or boys to manipulate. Being "open" about your sexuality has no bearing on knowing that someone wants sex and therefore you can use it to manipulate them. Manipulation is all about knowing that someone wants something and how you use that knowledge to get what you want.

15 year old girls haven't fundamentally changed, they aren't any more manipulative or less manipulative than they were in the 1970's just because they are "open" about sexuality. Girls have known for a long time that boys want sex. If anything there is less manipulation because sex is much easier for teen boys to get because there is all this openness about sexuality. Its hard to manipulate someone with something when there is a large supply of it.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

So many folks here are thinking about 15 year olds today and trying to apply that logic to the 70s. However, in the 70s (my era; yeah I really old) there was no rowe vs wade, no teen mom reality series, no family acceptance of a baby born out of wedlock (even for adult women) and no actual therapy for women having to make such life changing decisions.

This, especially in the south, was considered taboo and something no one should talk about. There were no sex education in the schools at that time and I even had friends who had sex on the regular, thinking kissing while on your period is how you got pregnant. My best friend got pregnant and she was told to run around the block three times and the baby would go away. Yes, she did that. When it didn't work, she drank drano because she was told that would abort the baby. She nearly died but the baby was still healthy. She then had her boyfriend punch her in the stomach and push her down the steps. She delivered a healthy baby while she was in the hospital for a few months. She was 16. This was how most girls thought and acted during that time. Families considered you an outright slut is you had a baby out of wedlock and pretty much disowned you.

So most found a midwife back in the rural country who was good with a coat hanger. Most weren't and died but it was the way it was until Rowe vs Wade put a stop to illegal abortions in the early 80s This was the era Patricia grew up in and this was the type of thinking that had many Patricia's giving up or aborting their children and the parents who encouraged them to just forget they even had a child and move on, pretending they were virgins when they eventually marry. Most were damaged like I feel Patricia was and probably why she chose the profession she is in to compensate for her actions.

It is not just black and white with this situation. there are layers we may never be privy to that affect Kenya an her mother.

I suspect sex ed in the 70's was similar to the sex ed I had in Catholic school, which was "don't do it."

Patricia ignored that, but apparently when she ended up pregnant it was time to cleve to all the family morals. But clearly, she had a part in the decision making process because Ronald's family begged her not to give Kenya up for adoption. So, she had a choice, and she made her choice. In fact, she made all the decisions, but she didn't want to deal with the fallout from making those decisions. Instead, it was up to an innocent child to suffer the fallout. Apparently, having a baby suffer for life choices of others is acceptable, but asking that the person who actually made the choices to bear some of the brunt of their decision making is unacceptable? Because it was the 70's?

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

Aging Goth · January 12, 2016

I suspect sex ed in the 70's was similar to the sex ed I had in Catholic school, which was "don't do it."

Patricia ignored that, but apparently when she ended up pregnant it was time to cleve to all the family morals. But clearly, she had a part in the decision making process because Ronald's family begged her not to give Kenya up for adoption. So, she had a choice, and she made her choice. In fact, she made all the decisions, but she didn't want to deal with the fallout from making those decisions. Instead, it was up to an innocent child to suffer the fallout. Apparently, having a baby suffer for life choices of others is acceptable, but asking that the person who actually made the choices to bear some of the brunt of their decision making is unacceptable? Because it was the 70's?

How many 15 year olds you know can actually make a mature adult decision. For Patricia, it was kill it or give it away. At that moment is the paternal grandmother got it, the baby would be far far away in Texas and she would never see the baby again. She could not have fathomed that that child would one day run back to Detroit looking for her maternal roots. 15 year olds just don't think that far ahead or they would be....Adults.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

How many 15 year olds you know can actually make a mature adult decision. For Patricia, it was kill it or give it away. At that moment is the paternal grandmother got it, the baby would be far far away in Texas and she would never see the baby again. She could not have fathomed that that child would one day run back to Detroit looking for her maternal roots. 15 year olds just don't think that far ahead or they would be....Adults.

I know that whether or not they are able to make decisions, they are held accountable for those decisions. At some point, you have to be accountable for your actions and the decisions that you make. And if someone has to be held accountable it should be a 15 year old who actually made a decision, not a baby who made no decisions.

The paternal grandmother lived in Detroit, which is why Kenya ran back to Detroit and not to Texas. It is absolutely reasonably foreseeable that a child that you didn't have a closed adoption on, who lived in the same area as you would want to know you. That is absolutely foreseeable to anyone. Even when there is a closed adoption its foreseeable that a child would want to know its parents. How that is unforeseeable is a mystery to me. I can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't want to at least know my birth parents, or have some curiosity about them. Whether you are legally able to get that information is another matter, and if its not a closed adoption you can get that information so it should have been foreseeable that Kenya at least want to have a talk with her mother.

And either way, Kenya has wanted a relationship with her mother for years. Patricia wasn't 15 forever, and the 70's were over at some point.

Although, again, if someone has the bear the unfortunate consequences of the situation, it should be the person who made a decision, because we certainly shouldn't expect a child to suffer for the decisions of someone 15 years older than them.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

imjagain · January 12, 2016

Just for the record, I have no problem with grocery store flowers. Paying more doesn't keep them alive longer. I'll show myself out now.

My 5 year old loves "buying" me flowers, if he goes to the grocery store with his dad or even with me, he'll say "for mommy".

My husband can spend as much as he wants, but those grocery store flowers will always be the best for me :)

Edited January 12, 2016 by imjagain

Aging Goth · January 12, 2016

Just remember, this "child" is now over 45 years old now and while this was devastating at the time, it has been long since time to "build a bridge and get over it." Far worse things has happened in many a child's life but more often than not, they learned to adjust and accept the love they do have in their lives.

Kenya is much too old to keep holding on to this. She has the entire Grant family supporting her. She should just accept their love and support and move on from the Moore situation. It's hard but she is by no means, a child, now.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

Just remember, this "child" is now over 45 years old now and while this was devastating at the time, it has been long since time to "build a bridge and get over it." Far worse things has happened in many a child's life but more often than not, they learned to adjust and accept the love they do have in their lives.

Kenya is much too old to keep holding on to this. She has the entire Grant family supporting her. She should just accept their love and support and move on from the Moore situation. It's hard but she is by no means, a child, now.

Okay, so now we are expecting a woman who has been treated like dirt by her mother for 40 years to just "get over it" But the woman who rejected her for 40+ years has a bunch of excuses for her shitty behavior? And because there are worse things that could happen to someone than being routinely and cruelly rejected by their own mother who treated them as if they didn't exist, this should somehow mean that she should just let years of rejection go? Talk about easier said than done.

Yes, Kenya can be comforted in the fact that her mother didn't actually throw acid in her face and be grateful for that because that would have been somewhat worse than being routinely treated as though she didn't even exist by her own mother.

Kenya is supposed to let all of this go, but Patricia gets a pass to continue to be cruel because she apparently has a right to hold onto her hurt feelings? But Kenya doesn't. I have to say that I truly do not understand or embrace that reasoning at all.

Kenya has done a great job with her life, all things considered. I wouldn't have blamed her for continuing the path of destruction and having children of her own out of wedlock as a way to try to get that love her mother wouldn't give her. Instead Kenya got a college degree, and became Miss USA in a competitive arena.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

If, as other said, carrying and birthing the child were her biggest option in the 70's for a 15 year old girl in the South, she didn't do anything out of the ordinary. And if she wanted to never even acknowledge her child's existence and make her child suffer either she should have moved or she should have pushed for the out of family adoption. She did neither. While her mistakes are understandable, making a child suffer for her mistakes is not understandable, its mean. No one was asking Patricia for a maternal bond, they were asking her to be a decent human being, sit down, and have a conversation or at least explain to Kenya what the deal was.

In this situation, someone was going to have to suffer from Kenya being born and being raised by Ronald's mother. It was either going to be Kenya, who is totally blameless, and was going to have to suffer absolute rejection from her mother. Or, it was going to be Patricia, who was going to have to put up with the shame of having given birth to Kenya as a result of her own decisions at 15. One of those parties is wholly blameless, the other one made a decision that resulted in the situation. If there is someone that has to bear the brunt, it should be the person who actually made the decisions, and that was Patricia. Yeah, sometimes life is hard, and sometimes you make a bad decision at 15, but the answer isn't that a blameless child should suffer for the mistake a 15 year old made.

Instead, a child was taught that she was less than nothing because her own mother acted as though she never even existed. Thats an awful thing to do to a child, and you don't get a pass because you made a bad decision at 15. Because someone in that situation is going to suffer. Either the 15 year old suffers because they have to face something they are ashamed of, or the child suffers because they are treated like dirt. In that situation, the person who made a decision should be the one to suffer, not the child.

I don't believe in this whole blameless idea. Sometimes you do the best with what you have. Mentally, physically and emotionally. No one is in that woman's head. Doesn't know the torture she goes through, doesn't know her nightmares and to have this blanket contempt because of the whole "blameless child" black and white philosophy does justice to neither of them. I don't pretend to know whether that woman punishes herself on a daily basis or drinks a mimosa every morning cheering her decision to ignore Kenya. In my experience I'm more inclined to believe the former. I'm more inclined to believe that she's just not emotionally equipped to deal with the situation that others so vehemently demand she do. I also take into account the fact that even though she is grown now she was in fact A CHILD herself and went through the motions at first and that most likely molded her dysfunctional mental state that surrounds this whole situation. Now I find it ironic how she was supposed to snap out of it one day, shake it off and tackle that demon, to conquer childhood angst and yet we understand all to well how Kenya at 40 plus years old won't be able to act right cause of HER trauma. Mothers are regular people too. Giving birth doesn't automatically turn everyone into some fiercely protective, everything revolves around the child mama bear. It just doesn't. I know we would like to believe that and condemn those who can't manage to follow that script even minimally. We live in a world where we are enraged that people don't don this protective nature for children and in all actuality not everyone has that sort of capabilities. Doesn't make them monsters, just makes them incapable. She carried her, birthed her, gave her away and I'm pretty sure lives with some very real demons she would rather keep locked up for fear of opening a dam she may not be able to get under control again. I can't deny someone's pain just because someone else has more justifiable pain. Empathy doesn't work that way.

There's also one other thing that keeps me from taking on the popular view. There is something up with her father. I really feel like there was something very sketchy about that conception, maybe not something violent or sinister but just not right and my heart goes out to Patricia because no one knows for sure whether or not Kenya's been the only victim in this ordeal and to gloss over that very real possibility in favor of cheering for Kenya just hurts my heart.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Yours Truly

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

Its funny to me that we would suggest that Kenya should just "forget about it" and "move on" even though she was a baby when she had to go through this rejection and still suffers from the rejection. Yet, Patricia should get a pass because "she is suffering" and "she can't get over the pain" Say what?

No the point is if people can understand why Kenya at 40 plus years can't forget about it or get over her childhood demons I don't get why people expect Patricia to forget about it at 60 plus years and get over her childhood demons and give Kenya what she wants. Because of the roles? Patricia physically gave birth and Kenya is technically the child. Obviously those details are just facts and don't have the emotional impact it should in this situation so what else is there? Two women, fighting their demons and for some crazy reason one is expected to be more equipped and able to defeat them and provide the much awaited healing why? Because societies philosophy dictates that Patricia's maternal instincts kick in out of nowhere and perform her duty? I get the sentiment, I question the rational.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

I don't believe in this whole blameless idea. Sometimes you do the best with what you have. Mentally, physically and emotionally. No one is in that woman's head. Doesn't know the torture she goes through, doesn't know her nightmares and to have this blanket contempt because of the whole "blameless child" black and white philosophy does justice to neither of them. I don't pretend to know whether that woman punishes herself on a daily basis or drinks a mimosa every morning cheering her decision to ignore Kenya. In my experience I'm more inclined to believe the former. I'm more inclined to believe that she's just not emotionally equipped to deal with the situation that others so vehemently demand she do. I also take into account the fact that even though she is grown now she was in fact A CHILD herself and went through the motions at first and that most likely molded her dysfunctional mental state that surrounds this whole situation. Now I find it ironic how she was supposed to snap out of it one day, shake it off and tackle that demon, to conquer childhood angst and yet we understand all to well how Kenya at 40 plus years old won't be able to act right cause of HER trauma. Mothers are regular people too. Giving birth doesn't automatically turn everyone into some fiercely protective, everything revolves around the child mama bear. It just doesn't. I know we would like to believe that and condemn those who can't manage to follow that script even minimally. We live in a world where we are enraged that people don't don this protective nature for children and in all actuality not everyone has that sort of capabilities. Doesn't make them monsters, just makes them incapable. She carried her, birthed her, gave her away and I'm pretty sure lives with some very real demons she would rather keep locked up for fear of opening a dam she may not be able to get under control again. I can't deny someone's pain just because someone else has more justifiable pain. Empathy doesn't work that way.

There's also one other thing that keeps me from taking on the popular view. There is something up with her father. I really feel like there was something very sketchy about that conception, maybe not something violent or sinister but just not right and my heart goes out to Patricia because no one knows for sure whether or not Kenya's been the only victim in this ordeal and to gloss over that very real possibility in favor of cheering for Kenya just hurts my heart.

So, a child isn't blameless? Because I feel like a child who didn't ask to be born is absolutely blameless and for this reason should not bear the burden for anyone else's poor decision making. I think that there are some things that are black and white and to put them any other way does a disservice to the person who is absolutely blameless and gives the person who is acting poorly an "out" for their shitty behavior.

Sometimes people don't have any reasonable justification for their actions and this is one of those times. Trying to pussyfoot around with "well, but she was 15....but it was the 70's" gives an excuse to her crappy behavior, and sometimes you have to just draw the line. Everyone has a reason for the things that they do.

John Wayne Gacy could tell you that there was a reason why he did what he did. That doesn't make his victims anything other than blameless.

And so now, because Patricia MIGHT be punishing herself on a daily basis it excuses her crappy behavior? Again, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Okay, so we can assume that Patricia, in 60+ years of living can get a pass because she isn't "emotionally equipped" but Kenya should just "get over it."

She was 15, and 15 year olds are not 5 year olds, they can understand and accept the consequences of their actions. Which is what we encourage most teenagers to do on a daily basis. If a 15 year old plows into me with a car I'm not gonna be like "oh well, what can I do, you're just a child, okie dokie" No, the 15 year old, or their parent is going to have to pay for it. She made the decision to have sex, she made the decision not to insist on a closed adoption. If someone has to suffer the consequences of Patricia's decisions....it needs to be Patricia, not an innocent....blameless child.

She was supposed to "snap out of it" in the 20+ years she acted like Kenya didn't even exist though Kenya did nothing to create the situation. She was supposed to act like a reasonable human being and not punish a baby for her life choices for 20+ years. Everything that happened to Patricia was a function of her own actions, and at 15 she still had a choice, she just made one she didn't like. Kenya had no choice, and having control and the ability to make a decision does make a difference. Kenya has been made to feel like she is nothing and unworthy of love from a mother, that is a situation that she had no control over. Patricia had control over her decisions and actions towards a defenseless child.

And no one, not even Kenya has asked for her mother to be a fierce mother bear. I believe even she knows that that ship has sailed, but she wants to at least have a talk, or at least some acknowledgment. Which Patricia wasn't even human enough to give her by locking the door in her face.....as she has done many times over the years. Except for that one time when she wanted to know Kenya after she won Miss USA.

There is nothing to suggest that Ronald did anything wrong, or "manipulated" Patricia. But, I wouldn't put it past a woman like that to claim that she was somehow raped so she doesn't have to suffer any fallout and because she is a selfish woman.

No the point is if people can understand why Kenya at 40 plus years can't forget about it or get over her childhood demons I don't get why people expect Patricia to forget about it at 60 plus years and get over her childhood demons and give Kenya what she wants. Because of the roles? Patricia physically gave birth and Kenya is technically the child. Obviously those details are just facts and don't have the emotional impact it should in this situation so what else is there? Two women, fighting their demons and for some crazy reason one is expected to be more equipped and able to defeat them and provide the much awaited healing why? Because societies philosophy dictates that Patricia's maternal instincts kick in out of nowhere and perform her duty? I get the sentiment, I question the rational.

No one is asking Patricia to "forget" about it, but to be a decent human being and have a discussion with Kenya. If she doesn't feel it from her heart, who cares? Say something because its the right thing to do, because there is someone that it would mean the world to. Because if someone has to feel discomfort for Patricia's life choices it should be Patricia and not Kenya.

Yes, I think the one who made all the choices and is 15 years the senior should be the one who is expected to make amends or at least to open the door.

No one is asking Patricia to "kick the demons" but rather to pretend to be a reasonable human being for half a second, put aside her demons, and say something to the child she has treated like an invisible monster for 40+ years. Or just see the demons and do it anyways because its the right thing to do after a lifetime of treating a blameless child like the dirt on the bottom of your shoe. A child who did absolutely nothing to be put in that situation. Again, if anyone has to feel discomfort in this situation, it is Patricia. At the end of the day Patricia made all the choices, and Kenya made none of them.

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

Easy, go live with an aunt. This is what many, many people did with mothers who had unwanted pregnancies and they didn't want it to soil the family name. You got shipped off to some out of state family member, had your baby and came back after your "vacation." That sort of thing has gone on, before, during and after the 70s. You didn't publicly embarass your family and no one was the wiser.

Wow, easy go live with an aunt? Is there a book out there with all these answers to every and all possible curveballs life throws at you for each and everyone's particular situation? Why is it not on the best sellers list?

Petunia13 · January 12, 2016

I think the themes this season is mixing business with personal - and - family. Seems like each cast member has had some issue or feeling about both.

Unpopular opinion alert- I got the vibe Leon gave Cyn that shit advice about sticking things out with Peter and making it work was because he didn't want to be her rebound. He sounded like he was acting in that conversation. Or. Maybe he thinks deep down Cyn and Pete can't afford a divorce.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

Wow, easy go live with an aunt? Is there a book out there with all these answers to every and all possible curveballs life throws at you for each and everyone's particular situation? Why is it not on the best sellers list?

Yep, happened all the time with pregnant teens. You had a "vacation" with your aunt/uncle and gave birth and came back. It was simply what happened. If you want to know what happened in these situations, you should maybe look into some history books, although they rarely make it to the best seller list. :)

But the "extended vacation to Aunt X's" has been going on as long as "shotgun weddings" or "premature babies that are full size/weight" and magically conceived on the wedding night.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

How many 15 year olds you know can actually make a mature adult decision. For Patricia, it was kill it or give it away. At that moment is the paternal grandmother got it, the baby would be far far away in Texas and she would never see the baby again. She could not have fathomed that that child would one day run back to Detroit looking for her maternal roots. 15 year olds just don't think that far ahead or they would be....Adults.

Thank you! Not that hard to grasp.

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

Yep, happened all the time with pregnant teens. You had a "vacation" with your aunt/uncle and gave birth and came back. It was simply what happened. If you want to know what happened in these situations, you should maybe look into some history books, although they rarely make it to the best seller list. :)

But the "extended vacation to Aunt X's" has been going on as long as "shotgun weddings" or "premature babies that are full size/weight" and magically conceived on the wedding night.

And you know this was an option in Patricia's home? There are some serious absolutes here that are just not in the realm of reality. There's no black and white. It seems this one situation is a huge advertisement about how life is mainly lived in gray. We make whatever shifts we can to adjust the cloudiness of our lives. There's no one set way and there's hardly ever any one perfect way. All I know is that I can't pretend to know exactly what is going on, what has gone on, and how the interactions went between Kenya and Patricia in the past. I also know that as educated and experienced as I am, based on the information that's out there I can't possibly be equipped enough to speak in absolutes about the life and times of Kenya Moore.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Yours Truly

LIMOM · January 12, 2016

So many folks here are thinking about 15 year olds today and trying to apply that logic to the 70s. However, in the 70s (my era; yeah I am really old) there was no Rowe vs Wade, no teen mom reality series, no family acceptance of a baby born out of wedlock (even for adult women) and no actual therapy for women having to make such life changing decisions.

This, especially in the south, was considered taboo and something no one should talk about. There were no sex education in the schools at that time and I even had friends who had sex on the regular, thinking kissing while on your period is how you got pregnant. My best friend got pregnant and she was told to run around the block three times and the baby would go away. Yes, she did that. When it didn't work, she drank Drano because she was told that would abort the baby. She nearly died but the baby was still healthy. She then had her boyfriend punch her in the stomach and push her down the steps. She delivered a healthy baby while she was in the hospital for a few months. She was 16. This was how most girls thought and acted during that time. Families considered you an outright slut is you had a baby out of wedlock and pretty much disowned you.

So most wayard girls found a midwife back in the rural country who was good with a coat hanger. Most midwives weren't and many a young girl died,but it was the way it was until Rowe vs Wade put a stop to illegal abortions in the early 80s This was the era Patricia grew up in and this was the type of thinking that had many Patricia's giving up or aborting their children and had parents who encouraged them to just forget they even had a child and move on, pretending they were virgins when they eventually marry. Most were damaged like I feel Patricia was and probably why she chose the profession she is in to compensate for her actions.

It is not just black and white with this situation. there are layers we may never be privy to that affect both Kenya and her mother.

Why do you think that Patricia is refusing to speak with Kenya at all ?

What is your professional opinion and what is your personal opinion as Patricia's contemporary?

qtpye · January 12, 2016

Of course Kenya demanded an apology. This is a woman who acted like she didn't exist for what had to be over 20 years at that point. And suddenly that Kenya won Miss USA she wants to talk? Never mind that in your 20's people are more likely to make rash decisions, but asking for an apology before allowing someone who wouldn't even acknowledge your existence doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me at all. And frankly, Patricia does owe her an apology. Kenya didn't do anything to deserve that treatment.

I don't know about Kenya's mother, but absentee family members all of a sudden becoming friendly because they want some of your fame and fortune is pretty common.

I remember seeing a documentary about a girl that was half Filipino and white. Her Filipino mother gave her up as a baby to be raised by a couple in America. When the girl grew up she visited her birth family in the Philippines. She wanted to find out about their cultural heritage, but otherwise had no relationship with them. Every member of her birth family (we are talking about third cousins once removed) had their hand out expecting money. They thought she owed them, because she was living the "good life in America". The girl had a nice life, but she was by no means rich. After, she left the Philippines she never contacted her birth family again.

I also saw one of those horrible old reality shows that were on a long time ago about making a boy band. In this show, one guy's father had abandoned him at birth and never contacted him since. However, once the father saw the kid on Mtv, then he picked up the phone and decided "it was time for them to have a relationship".

If my mother would not even say hi to me when she saw me growing up as a child, but all of a sudden wanted to congratulate me on my Miss U.S.A win, I too would be highly suspicious.

I also need to interrupt the board's highly intelligent discussion of maternity leave to say something shallow and stupid. I have always thought Lauren was quite pretty. To me, she looks a little like Tatiana Ali, ( the younger daughter on the Fresh Prince). She also seem more articulate then Porsha. I have always wondered if it was like Porsha was the center of attention and Lauren was always on the sidelines ( I know they had different mothers)? However, to be fair, it does seem like Lauren is benefiting from Porsha's fame, but it is an interesting relationship.

Granimal · January 12, 2016

I don't judge Patricia's choices as a 15 year old. I'm judging her by who she is now. And I think she's a selfish and cruel human being- to put it mildly.

To attend functions that your own child is at and show no interest is completely baffling. She should've sat her ass at home if she couldn't be civil. If Kenya were (God forbid) to be hit by a bus tomorrow would Patricia attend the funeral? Would she be relieved or regret the decisions she's made up to this point?

It baffles me that a woman with so little empathy for her own "daughter" chose to go into social work. I don't get it, and I never will. It makes me grateful that I have a mother who cares about me.

Re: Phaedra/Todd, I thought Kandi posted on Twitter that Todd had still not been paid(?)

LIMOM · January 12, 2016

No the point is if people can understand why Kenya at 40 plus years can't forget about it or get over her childhood demons I don't get why people expect Patricia to forget about it at 60 plus years and get over her childhood demons and give Kenya what she wants. Because of the roles? Patricia physically gave birth and Kenya is technically the child. Obviously those details are just facts and don't have the emotional impact it should in this situation so what else is there? Two women, fighting their demons and for some crazy reason one is expected to be more equipped and able to defeat them and provide the much awaited healing why? Because societies philosophy dictates that Patricia's maternal instincts kick in out of nowhere and perform her duty? I get the sentiment, I question the rational.

I very much agree with you that you are not born a mother but become one.

Where I differ from your point of view is that if you know someone who is suffering out there (even a perfect stranger), isn't it your duty as a fellow human being to ease their pain?

What is the big deal if she humbles herself and say"Kenya I am sorry I have hurt you and please forgive me?"

This refusal to do this, baffles me.

qtpye · January 12, 2016

Lord, Phae still has not paid that man? I think Phaedra realized that whether or not it was for Apollo, the work out videos were a bust. In other words, she is punishing Todd for her bad idea. This is a very shady way for an attorney to act and does not reflect well on her professionally or personally.

Dang it, Phae, enjoy your pretty babies, pay Todd, and move on.

RCharter · January 12, 2016

And you know this was an option in Patricia's home? There are some serious absolutes here that are just not in the realm of reality. There's no black and white. It seems this one situation is a huge advertisement about how life is mainly lived in gray. We make whatever shifts we can to adjust the cloudiness of our lives. There's no one set way and there's hardly ever any one perfect way. All I know is that I can't pretend to know exactly what is going on, what has gone on, and how the interactions went between Kenya and Patricia in the past. I also know that as educated and experienced as I am, based on the information that's out there I can't possibly be equipped enough to speak in absolutes about the life and times of Kenya Moore.

And you know it wasn't an option in Patricia's situation? Someone asked how else it could have worked, I answered. You took a long vacation to an aunt. And this was most often an option in situations like Patricia's. Where the family had strong feelings about an illegitimate child, and didn't want their family name sullied by one. They sent the girl out of the area so no one would know that she was pregnant and therefore could not ruin the family name. The girl gave birth and the child was given up for adoption. This is nothing new at all and many times, the "aunt" never existed and you were simply sent to a home for unwed mothers or to some acquaintance.

How this "isn't in the realm of reality" when it was a reality for many, many, many unwed mothers seems odd to me.

There actually is a black and a white. Actions have consequences, Patricia's actions had consequences and one of those was a child that wanted to at least have a talk with her. The human thing to do, in 20+ years, is to have the conversation. Even if its uncomfortable, even if there are demons or pain. Not because you're a mama bear, but just because you're a decent human being and you realize that a child shouldn't have to suffer for the decision YOU made. People like to claim the grey when they want to have an excuse for their crappy behavior, and sometimes it just doesn't work that way. And there is a right and there is a wrong. Making a blameless child the victim of your choices for 20+ years...until she is Miss USA, is just wrong.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

Aging Goth · January 12, 2016

Why do you think that Patricia is refusing to speak with Kenya at all ?

What is your professional opinion and what is your personal opinion as Patricia's contemporary?

Professional opinion: Both really need professional therapy for their individual demons. Both made a series of immature decisions that later affected the other person's life. Both are suffering and both are not handling it

Personal opinion: pretty much the same except I feel Kenya may have blown the only chance she had of talking with her mother when Kenya refused to talk to Patricia unless she apologizes to her for abandoning her which really didn't actually happen. Kenya didn't do any better bringing cameras to her mother's residence to "privately" talk. That was a fail even before it happens

As for Patricia, both my personal and professional opinion are the same. Lived it through my classmates and friends, saw it at various crisis centers where I worked and in my nursing career. Heck, when I was in the hospital delivering my daughter, there was a 12 year old having a difficult pregnancy along with dealing with her family and hospital staff encouraging her to give up her baby and not look back. which she reluctantly did because she had absolutely zero support to keep her son. Even her baby daddy's father made it clear he would not allow his 11 year old son to be strapped with a "problem" as he put it and pretty much called her a whore for having sex with his son at 12. Even though she was pressured by the boy to try it out.

This is why I can understand what is going on in Patricia's head just as i can understand what is going on with Kenya, who parallels my husband's maternal history and is just as damaged as she.

There are no monsters here, just damaged people.

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

I very much agree with you that you are not born a mother but become one.

Where I differ from your point of view is that if you know someone who is suffering out there (even a perfect stranger), isn't it your duty as a fellow human being to ease their pain?

What is the big deal if she humbles herself and say"Kenya I am sorry I have hurt you and please forgive me?"

This refusal to do this, baffles me.

And your stance on the issue I can get on board with quite honestly. I just think that Patricia just wants to leave that part locked up in her head since it's safer for her there. It's just that I understand how fragile the mind is and how easily broken it can be. Can't ask someone to sacrifice their own sanity in order sooth another's wound. As a mother you would expect her to make that decision easily but since we've established that she in all actuality is NOT TRULY her mother then the expectation is pretty misplaced. Kenya's wounded heart vs. Patricia's fragile mentality. Do we really expect these extremes? We do from a mother, daughter but that's not the case here. That's where I come from with my observations.

I guess I can understand the survival mode Patricia is in. I saw my older sister do this with my mom over and over again and even though I totally empathize with my sisters pain I also saw what it did to my mom. I saw the hard outter layer. I saw her turn something off in order to get through her life. It was not the same exactly as Kenya's situation because my mother never denied my sister but she did have a family member raise her. I saw my sister's resentment and she just never let up on my mother. After a while my mother finally decided that she can't help or change anything and my sister decided that she would stick it to her every chance she got. I saw how it hurt my mother and I also saw why she was the steely woman she was. Hugs weren't her thing, loving gestures, or terms of endearment but she cooked, cleaned made sure I was clean and healthy. We had a bond and I love her to death and she still had her maternal moments so no I wasn't raised by wolves.

It was hard to see how she tried to move passed it with my sister all the while my sister still keeping that undertone in all of our interactions. It got pretty comfortable and everyone was able to get along and visit and gather at family functions quite pleasantly. But even to this day my sister can't help but focus on those details and our mother is gone and my sister and her healed maybe 80% of their relationship. I remember my mother telling me one day that she's not going to torture herself for the rest of her life and she wasn't going to let my sister do it to her either. That's what kept the other 20% from happening and I always wondered what is a person to do?

You can't demand forgiveness for something like this and if you're not granted that forgiveness what's left are layers of guilt that get peeled away but never end with each piece hurting. My mother did her best and then finally decided to stop allowing my sister to keep peeling those layers. Now my mother did have some sort of bond with my sister so she off course allowed it but there did come a time where she had to worry about herself. Shit it already made her the hard woman that raised me so I was happy that she was finally letting it be what it was for her own sake. Everyone deserves the right to decide what they can and can't tolerate mentally and emotionally not matter what the circumstances. As long as it's not something violent or INTENTIONALLY hurtful I can see where sometimes this form of survival is necessary especially when you know that absolvement is impossible. Some people just can't take their hits and survive and they know this about themselves. This is my insight which is why I have empathy for all involved.

Professional opinion: Both really need professional therapy for their individual demons. Both made a series of immature decisions that later affected the other person's life. Both are suffering and both are not handling it

Personal opinion: pretty much the same except I feel Kenya may have blown the only chance she had of talking with her mother when Kenya refused to talk to Patricia unless she apologizes to her for abandoning her which really didn't actually happen. Kenya didn't do any better bringing cameras to her mother's residence to "privately" talk. That was a fail even before it happens

As for Patricia, both my personal and professional opinion are the same. Lived it through my classmates and friends, saw it at various crisis centers where I worked and in my nursing career. Heck, when I was in the hospital delivering my daughter, there was a 12 year old having a difficult pregnancy along with dealing with her family and hospital staff encouraging her to give up her baby and not look back. which she reluctantly did because she had absolutely zero support to keep her son. Even her baby daddy's father made it clear he would not allow his 11 year old son to be strapped with a "problem" as he put it and pretty much called her a whore for having sex with his son at 12. Even though she was pressured by the boy to try it out.

This is why I can understand what is going on in Patricia's head just as i can understand what is going on with Kenya, who parallels my husband's maternal history and is just as damaged as she.

There are no monsters here, just damaged people.

A THOUSAND LIKES!!

Edited January 12, 2016 by Yours Truly

howivesforever · January 12, 2016

In my opinion if this wasn't Kenya's mother but one of the more likeable hw's people would certainly have more compassion for her. Patricia wasn't wrong for giving up the child she couldn't raise, but she is very wrong and cruel for how's she's treated Kenya over the years. I suspect Aunt Lori was cruel in the sense that she wanted a relationship with Kenya against her sisters wishes. It put them all in an uncomfortable situation. Sorry not sorry but I don't blame Kenya for not wanting to speak with her mother after winning Miss USA when at every family function before that she acted as if Kenya didn't exist. Patricia is a freaking social worker but treats her own child like shit. I would not want that woman helping any family since she can't have compassion for her own child.

SFoster21 · January 12, 2016

I've read all these dissertations and imo, there's too little information to have an opinion on Patricia.

Kenya is an unreliable narrator as someone above pointed out. Who knows what really went on?

howivesforever · January 12, 2016

I've read all these dissertations and imo, there's too little information to have an opinion on Patricia.

Kenya is an unreliable narrator as someone above pointed out. Who knows what really went on?

But Aunt Lori and Kenya's father back up Kenya's story.

Yours Truly · January 12, 2016

I've read all these dissertations and imo, there's too little information to have an opinion on Patricia.

Kenya is an unreliable narrator as someone above pointed out. Who knows what really went on?

This too. Especially since I used to hear how my sister who express the situation and it just wasn't the way she would explain it. It's human nature to narrate something in a way that heightens her position so I understood why she would present it the way she did but she omitted a lot. She also never received anything good about our 100%. You could tell she just couldn't accept anything positive without seeming a bit skeptical. Their was always this hint of shadow regarding everything about my mom. I think Kenya comes from that place too so it's hard to gauge exactly just how resistant Patricia has been.

But Aunt Lori and Kenya's father back up Kenya's story.

So they are going to deny Kenya's truths even if it paints Patricia in a slightly worse light? They know for the most part Kenya ain't wrong to feel how she feels they ain't going to nitpick about how passionate she is with her expression of events. Plus I don't recall any of them really speaking in depth about her actions. I feel that they've just agreed about the situation over all. Not really any particulars and again I would expect them to understand that it would be in bad taste for them to contradict her on this matter. Maybe that's what's about to happen with aunt Lori next week. hmmmmmm.

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S08.E10: Trouble On The Family Tree

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