Original Flavor Season Talk: Dinner at Rodbell's

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 2/20/2018 at 5:01 PM, kimbrchick said:

I also didn't remember David being such a jerk sometimes. He acts like he's this good guy and so much better than his brother but he's just as flawed if not more.

Then you probably liked the episode where Dan stood up for Mark against David.  I'm going from memory, so somebody can fine-tune this if they would like to:

D.J. has a drawing assignment, but he just rushes through it and then goes off with Mark somewhere.

David starts pushing on Dan, saying that D.J. didn't put any effort into his drawing, and that D.J. shouldn't be hanging around with Mark, because Mark is a bad influence.  He just keeps pushing it until Dan gets angry, saying that Mark might not be the smartest guy in the world, but he's down there at the City Garage every day so he can take care of his family.  (The unspoken rest of that sentence being, "Which is more than you can say")

The episode ends with Dan not quite kicking David out, but making it clear that David needs to get out and start a life for himself.

[peacheslatour]

I started to not like David when he ratted Darlene out for trying drugs a couple of times just because he wanted to punish her. Then when he lived with her in Chicago he didn't even look for work. He just sat around her apartment all day doing nothing. What a uninteresting bore.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I’m in the same age range as Sara Gilbert and Johnny Galecki, give or take a year. I was a high schooler when David and Darlene were in school and I’m now 40ish. I didn’t mind David when I watched the original episodes. Maybe watching with adult eyes has jaded my opinion of him because he annoys the crap out of me now. Once he moved into the Conner house, he became insufferable with the exception of the last few episodes. 

[peacheslatour]

Maybe we all had a leftover fondness for Galecki from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

[UYI]

On 2/20/2018 at 6:14 PM, Dee said:

Becky doesn't really tear into Darlene though.

She halfheartedly snarks at Darlene, then returns to doing her chores.

Never, during the entire run of the show, does Becky ever treat Darlene with half of the snarling vitriol or unmitigated condescension that Darlene does with Becky imo.

She was snarky in the beginning, but she ended with a hint of tranquil fury, which, in my opinion, was MUCH more effective than any of Darlene's take downs towards her. To me, at least. 

[Nordly Beaumont]

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Maybe we all had a leftover fondness for Galecki from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

I just thought he was cute! (Still do) A shallow reason for forgiving jerkiness, but there ya go...

[Bastet]

When the show originally aired, I couldn't stand David almost from the time we met him.  I felt bad for him when we saw his home life, and loved the scene where Roseanne changes her mind and says he can come live with them, but I thought he was unbearably annoying.  Now, I like him well enough until he's an utter asshole about Darlene going to Chicago, and from then on I pretty much hate him. 

Of course, now I also hate Darlene once she goes to Chicago, where originally I always liked her.  She's such an ass!  She still has some good moments, and I know Sara's availability was limited by her college schedule, but Darlene constantly comes home for a planned visit, get into a stupid fight with David, and stomps back to Chicago early, never mind that her parents would like to spend some time with her.  And she's awful to Becky.  And, yes, New Coke Becky is pretty awful, but still.  They ways they insulted each other had always been rooted in reality and tempered with love, but it became this constant refrain of withering condescension about what a stupid bimbo Becky was.  Even in Sarah Chalke's hands, that wasn't true.

[JAYJAY1979]

Rewatching the original to get ready for the revivial.. and I think that Jackie/Roseanne had the most dysfunctional sisterly relationship I'd ever seen.  In the real world, I would hope someone would have told them to cut ties with one another for at least one year where Roseanne couldn't control Jackie.. and Jackie couldn't run to Roseanne to fix her problems.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I didn’t mind David when I watched the original episodes. Maybe watching with adult eyes has jaded my opinion of him because he annoys the crap out of me now. Once he moved into the Conner house, he became insufferable with the exception of the last few episodes. 

I felt very much like they had no real idea what to do with the character, particularly when Darlene was off at college.  So we got all these storylines where David fails to mind his own business, and he's super annoying about it.     

[Mmmfloorpie]

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt very much like they had no real idea what to do with the character, particularly when Darlene was off at college.  So we got all these storylines where David fails to mind his own business, and he's super annoying about it.     

It's weird that it was like that since I feel the only reason David didn't get into art school was because Sara Gilbert was leaving for college and they wanted to keep an existing character on the show to give them someone to write stories for.

Kind of like how they tried to use the Tilden girls to fill the Becky hole but that never took off either.

[UYI]

2 hours ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

Kind of like how they tried to use the Tilden girls to fill the Becky hole but that never took off either.

I feel like that was less a situation where they didn't take off and more of a purposely short-term story arc. I think they wanted to keep Becky and Mark out of town long enough where their return would mean something, and once they had reached the year and a half mark, they felt the time was right to bring them back. I don't think Ty, Charlotte and Molly were ever meant to be on the show longer than they were. 

[Neptune]

 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

He just keeps pushing it until Dan gets angry, saying that Mark might not be the smartest guy in the world, but he's down there at the City Garage every day so he can take care of his family.

Yes, but Mark was such an ass to David. I was watching the episode Lost Youth last night and David wants to go out with a porn st....er waitress and Mark just walks all over David to get to her. He was a married man and the only reason he did was to fuck David over. Both brothers were rather disagreeable.

[TheLastKidPicked]

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Yes, but Mark was such an ass to David. I was watching the episode Lost Youth last night and David wants to go out with a porn st....er waitress and Mark just walks all over David to get to her. He was a married man and the only reason he did was to fuck David over. Both brothers were rather disagreeable.

Very good point.  The show did a good job of demonstrating a fundamental problem between Mark and David.

David does not respect what Mark does.  He thinks that getting dirty and greasy at a job is not as lofty as having a job where you can use your intellect to create something special.

And Mark does not respect what David does.  He thinks that hard, physical work is honest work, where creative jobs are not.

[peacheslatour]

I wonder what line of work the Healy brother's dad was in. Was he a blue collar hero or a white collar guy who thought blue collar work was for the poors?  And what of their sisters? David mentioned he had younger sisters at a couple points. They would be Harris and Young Mark's aunts.

[Bastet]

I don't think we ever learned what Mr. Healy did; he left (taking the girls with him) so early in David's run that we didn't learn much about him (other than he joined Mrs. Healy in kicking Mark out and treating David like crap - not to mention only wanting two of his four kids).

[anna0852]

Maybe he was a step-dad. Might explain keeping the younger girls but not the older boys.

[Bastet]

That would make sense in terms of taking only Lisa and Nicky when he left Mrs. Healy, but Mark and David both have his last name, so unless he adopted them after marrying their mom, that doesn't fit.

He was always referred to as David and Mark's father, not stepfather and it was always "Mom and Dad," not "Mom and [Name]." When Mark and David talk before the wedding, about the Conners being their parents now, and list the ways in which the Healys sucked, I think they would have said something along the lines of "Dad took off, Mom married another loser and then he took off" if that were the case.

[anna0852]

Fair enough. The Healy father was such an ephemeral presence that we'll probably never hear anything else about him.

I'm really hoping the Darlene and David are just separated and not actually divorced. I know it comes down to JG being tied up with Big Bang Theory but they really seemed rock-solid after Harris was born.

Not to mention, with Mark's death and being abandoned by his parents David will have no family aside from his children. The Connor's became his family and if he and Darlene have divorced, he'll lose them too.

[Mmmfloorpie]

Healy dad was also retconned in season 8. Earlier seasons he was more sympathetic because his wife was cheating on him and he took care of his young daughters after the divorce.

Then at Davids wedding he becomes some asshole that never did anything for Mark and David.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Mmmfloorpie

[Mmmfloorpie]

On 26/02/2018 at 11:48 AM, UYI said:

I feel like that was less a situation where they didn't take off and more of a purposely short-term story arc. I think they wanted to keep Becky and Mark out of town long enough where their return would mean something, and once they had reached the year and a half mark, they felt the time was right to bring them back. I don't think Ty, Charlotte and Molly were ever meant to be on the show longer than they were. 

Possibly but the girl who played Molly was a pretty big "star" in the early 90s. She was the lead in a couple of the Halloween movies and I think she had been on another series too. I look at it as they brought in a "heavy hitter" to replace Becky. They knew she could act and be a proper foil to Darlene.

Also, if you compare Becky and Molly they are pretty similar. Both high achievers and typical popular girl in high school. The Becky/Darlene rivalry worked and they wanted to keep it. Charolette was just a bonus character. Maybe they wanted to continue the sisterhood theme. Jackie and Roseanne sisters. Becky and Darlene sisters. Charolette and Molly sisters.

David moving in was also another Becky replacement. A main character departs so let's fill the void with several minor characters.

I've always said Becky leaving was a turning point in the show. Seasons 1-4 are more about the core family members. 5-9 are more about the "extended family" of characters and issue episodes.

When Lecy left I'm sure it was a period of great uncertainty. No one likely knew the direction the show was going take. So they hedged. Molly and Charolette were good for a couple episodes but clearly they decided to focus on the David and Darlene storyline and not Molly and Darlene.

Unlike Becky and Mark whose courtship wasn't really seen on screen, David and Darlene's was front and centre. It became a big part of the show. I guess they figured it was new ground and teen sisters fighting thing had been done.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Mmmfloorpie

[peacheslatour]

17 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Fair enough. The Healy father was such an ephemeral presence that we'll probably never hear anything else about him.

I'm really hoping the Darlene and David are just separated and not actually divorced. I know it comes down to JG being tied up with Big Bang Theory but they really seemed rock-solid after Harris was born.

Not to mention, with Mark's death and being abandoned by his parents David will have no family aside from his children. The Connor's became his family and if he and Darlene have divorced, he'll lose them too.

I don't know about that. No matter how many times David and Darlene broke up, the Conner's still accepted David with open arms. He would have to have done something really egregious for them to reject him out of hand. Especially since he's the father of their grandchildren. But who knows? I can't wait to find out! Oh, the fun we're going have with the post mortems!

Edited February 28, 2018 by peacheslatour

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

Healy dad was also retconned in season 8. Earlier seasons he was more sympathetic because his wife was cheating on him and he took care of his young daughters after the divorce.

He kicked Mark out, and when he left his wife, he took the girls, but left David with the also godawful Mrs. Healy.  No custody battle, no David choosing his mom, no Mrs. Healy even really wanting David - just, bye, son.

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I don't know about that. No matter how many times David and Darlene broke up, the Conner's still accepted David with open arms. He would have to have done something really egregious for them to reject him out of hand. Especially since he's the father of their grandchildren.

Exactly; David came into the Conner family via Darlene, but he became part of it all on his own, and remained part of it during all the umpteen break-ups.  Unless their break-up/separation (I'm not sure which route they're taking) is because he did something horrible to Darlene or the kids (not a road I expect them to go down), he's not going to lose them.

[Mmmfloorpie]

21 hours ago, Bastet said:

He kicked Mark out, and when he left his wife, he took the girls, but left David with the also godawful Mrs. Healy.  No custody battle, no David choosing his mom, no Mrs. Healy even really wanting David - just, bye, son.

Exactly; David came into the Conner family via Darlene, but he became part of it all on his own, and remained part of it during all the umpteen break-ups.  Unless their break-up/separation (I'm not sure which route they're taking) is because he did something horrible to Darlene or the kids (not a road I expect them to go down), he's not going to lose them.

I don't think it's mentioned in the pre season 5 episodes that Mark was kicked out. He could have left on his own. He was a badass "rebel without a cause" type. He might not have wanted to live under the rules his parents set forth. Or, maybe he was kicked out. Clearly he was out of control so he deserved to be.

Maybe when the parents got divorced his father could only take care of the much younger daughters. David was 16-17 at the time. It's not like he was left to fend for himself either. The plan was he would live with his mother.

[CandysWrapRoom]

On 2/22/2018 at 12:18 PM, TheLastKidPicked said:

Then you probably liked the episode where Dan stood up for Mark against David.  I'm going from memory, so somebody can fine-tune this if they would like to:

D.J. has a drawing assignment, but he just rushes through it and then goes off with Mark somewhere.

David starts pushing on Dan, saying that D.J. didn't put any effort into his drawing, and that D.J. shouldn't be hanging around with Mark, because Mark is a bad influence.  He just keeps pushing it until Dan gets angry, saying that Mark might not be the smartest guy in the world, but he's down there at the City Garage every day so he can take care of his family.  (The unspoken rest of that sentence being, "Which is more than you can say")

The episode ends with Dan not quite kicking David out, but making it clear that David needs to get out and start a life for himself.

The thing I remember about this is David's face as he realizes that in describing Mark as worthless and going nowhere, he's essentially said the same thing about Dan.

[Bastet]

2 minutes ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

The plan was he would live with his mother.

Which he didn't want to do, because she was going to move to Michigan, and because she's awful -- "I can't live with my mother, not without my father there."  So for to only take the girls and leave David with her is shitty, and screams "I don't want you."

[Mmmfloorpie]

16 hours ago, Bastet said:

Which he didn't want to do, because she was going to move to Michigan, and because she's awful -- "I can't live with my mother, not without my father there."  So for to only take the girls and leave David with her is shitty, and screams "I don't want you."

They were blue collar. Hardly of any means. 

Sometimes that happens. Dad Healy felt he couldn't leave the young daughters (Who from that Xmas episode I'd guess were maybe 7 and 9?) with mom Healey so he left with them.

I'm sure it was incredibly hard for dad Healy economically to do this and unfortunately, 17 year old boy David had to go with his mom. 

Doesn't mean dad Healy didn't want to take David/love him.

When David tells Darlene about what's happening, there's no malice about it.

[qtpye]

One thing that bugged me was the way David seemed to enjoy Molly flirting with him whenever she came over.  It was obvious that Molly had no interest in David and only wanted to bug Darlene.  Also, it is pretty disrespectful to flirt like that in front of your girlfriend and her parents.

I also, as I get older, kinda of wondered what was Molly's deal with Darlene?  It was like she secretly wanted to be like Darlene (cool, does not care what others think about her), but also wanted to compete with her.  I thinks she thought running off with some boys at the concert would actually make Darlene respect her as a bad ass and was taken back about how it did not work out like she expected.

[Bastet]

5 hours ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

When David tells Darlene about what's happening, there's no malice about it.

There's no malice when he talks about his mom, either; the kid is totally beaten down and despondent about the whole situation.

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

One thing that bugged me was the way David seemed to enjoy Molly flirting with him whenever she came over.  It was obvious that Molly had no interest in David and only wanted to bug Darlene.  Also, it is pretty disrespectful to flirt like that in front of your girlfriend and her parents.

I also, as I get older, kinda of wondered what was Molly's deal with Darlene?  It was like she secretly wanted to be like Darlene (cool, does not care what others think about her), but also wanted to compete with her.  I thinks she thought running off with some boys at the concert would actually make Darlene respect her as a bad ass and was taken back about how it did not work out like she expected.

I think Molly was just a new girl in town and trying desperately to find her place and fit in.

[HoboClayton]

David was a teenage boy who was treated like the wimp he was by his girlfriend. Of course he liked it, but didn't let her kiss him. For long. 

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:33 AM, peacheslatour said:

Yes, but Mark was such an ass to David. I was watching the episode Lost Youth last night and David wants to go out with a porn st....er waitress and Mark just walks all over David to get to her. He was a married man and the only reason he did was to fuck David over. Both brothers were rather disagreeable.

I hated Mark most of the time on this show. The dynamic between him and David was what made him unlikable to me, with an undertone that David is not masculine enough (for whatever reason, his hair, his interests, Darlene being more aggressive than him, etc. it's a recurring joke) and therefore inferior. What's worse is that same dynamic seemed to carry on between David and Dan, too. Another reason I don't care for that episode in particular is it felt like they were trying too hard to make David the bad guy in the brothers' relationship for a change, and it didn't feel in-character. I wish Dan telling David to get a job/get out had been written differently.

[peacheslatour]

9 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I hated Mark most of the time on this show. The dynamic between him and David was what made him unlikable to me, with an undertone that David is not masculine enough (for whatever reason, his hair, his interests, Darlene being more aggressive than him, etc. it's a recurring joke) and therefore inferior. What's worse is that same dynamic seemed to carry on between David and Dan, too. Another reason I don't care for that episode in particular is it felt like they were trying too hard to make David the bad guy in the brothers' relationship for a change, and it didn't feel in-character. I wish Dan telling David to get a job/get out had been written differently.

I agree. It did seem completely out of character for both Dan and David. I am not fond of that episode either.

[Mmmfloorpie]

On 02/03/2018 at 1:12 PM, Bastet said:

There's no malice when he talks about his mom, either; the kid is totally beaten down and despondent about the whole situation.

He appeared at Darlene's window because he wanted to run away with her and get married (I think that was said), saying "I can't live with my mother, not without my dad there". Sounds like malice to me.

[CherryAmes]

3 minutes ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

Sounds like malice to me.

I don't think it's malice to state something that is true.  He didn't talk about how horrible his mother is, he basically just said he couldn't live with her,

[chocolatine]

22 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

I don't think it's malice to state something that is true.  He didn't talk about how horrible his mother is, he basically just said he couldn't live with her,

Especially considering the verbal abuse he experienced from her, it would have been easy for him to respond in kind, but he didn't. That showed to me that, despite his shortcomings, David is a kind soul.

[Mmmfloorpie]

22 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I don't think it's malice to state something that is true.  He didn't talk about how horrible his mother is, he basically just said he couldn't live with her,

Malice defined as "ill will". He never said anything about how his dad was a jerk for abandoning him.

The original point of the conversation was that David's dad wasn't presented as a "bad person" until season 8 in the wedding episode.

I think he was more of a sympathetic character in season 5.

[chocolatine]

On 3/7/2018 at 9:55 AM, Mmmfloorpie said:

Malice defined as "ill will". He never said anything about how his dad was a jerk for abandoning him.

The original point of the conversation was that David's dad wasn't presented as a "bad person" until season 8 in the wedding episode.

I think he was more of a sympathetic character in season 5.

That could have been an evolving perspective on David’s part. As a young teen he saw his father as a fellow victim of his mother’s rage, but as an adult about to be a husband and father himself he may have just realized the full extent of his father’s abandonment.

[Jac]

I've been doing a rewatch in preparation for the new episodes and damn, this show from the last 1/3 of season 1 through to the end season 7 is one of the best depictions of working-class life to have ever appeared on television. I think the first 2/3 of season 1 is weaker because Roseanne Barr is essentially learning how to act on the fly and her performance is much less nuanced. Season 8 is patchier and the less said about season 9 the better but both still have their moments. 

I was in primary school and early high school (I'm Australian, primary school = K-6, high school = 7-12, at least in the jurisdiction where I attended school) when this show aired and I remember being aware at the time that this was pretty much the only family on TV that looked like mine. My parents were overweight and particularly around the time Roseanne premiered were in a similarly precarious financial situation (though as a general rule we were probably 3-4 rungs higher on the socioeconomic ladder than the Conner's were, we were struggling, my parents both worked two jobs for most of my childhood but we were also less precarious, my parents are nurses so they had better job security). They were sarcastic and sometimes mean to each other and they fought and there were years of baggage in the relationships but they still loved each other and that was very much my family. 

I love that the show depicted a reality where people have to make the best choice possible from a whole array of poor choices. I love the fact that people are allowed to be frustrated and angry that their economic realities constrain their choices because as an adult, this is very much my reality. I had to drop out of law school (in Australia where education is much, much cheaper) after two years because it had become apparent that I would not be able to afford to complete my post-degree, pre-qualification requirements (more school, paid for up front and in full and an internship) in spite of my best efforts. I had to change my plans for my whole life because of my economic reality and that is something that Becky in particular experiences in the show (I ended up falling on my feet and I'll be entering a PhD program in public health next year). 

I am so thankful that this show exists and kind of nervous about the new episodes, I really hope they can capture the reality of working-class life in America in 2018 the way they could in the 90s.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Jac said:

I had to drop out of law school (in Australia where education is much, much cheaper) after two years because it had become apparent that I would not be able to afford to complete my post-degree, pre-qualification requirements (more school, paid for up front and in full and an internship) in spite of my best efforts. I had to change my plans for my whole life because of my economic reality and that is something that Becky in particular experiences in the show (I ended up falling on my feet and I'll be entering a PhD program in public health next year). 

I'm glad things worked out for you! I was in a similar situation and ended up landing on my feet as well (in my case made a good career for myself with a MSc because a PhD was infeasible at the time). In retrospect that was the best thing that's ever happened to me because I learned to adapt and still be happy when things weren't going the way I'd planned. Good luck with your PhD program!

ETA: It's great how people from all corners of the world can relate to the show. I was living in Germany when I first watched it in the 90s.

Edited March 10, 2018 by chocolatine

[snarkylady]

Ok, a question from out of the blue, hoping someone can answer 'cause it's driving me nuts.....I'm recalling an episode where the three Connor children go out the front door off to school, each looks neat and is carrying a home-made lunch, they are all practically skipping out the door beaming and smiling like a happy sitcom family.  That's all I have, it's at the end of an episode, I think.  Does anyone remember what episode this was?  THANKS!

[Annber03]

@snarkylady It's "An Officer and a Gentleman" :). Roseanne's away to visit her dad, and Jackie's helping out at the Connor household, and the kids are really enjoying having her around :D. 

It's a really nice episode, too, with a very sweet ending. 

[snarkylady]

@Annber03  -- thank you so much, I do remember that episode.

[Jac]

Another thing I really appreciate about Roseanne is the frequent hairstyle changes Roseanne, Jackie, and Becky, in particular, go through over the course of the show. It is a weird thing to admire but it really adds to the realism of the show for me. People change hairstyles quite frequently in real life but on TV almost everyone has the same hair all the time. My favorite example of this is Jackie and her bangs. I have bangs but my hair also grows like a weed so for the last two-three weeks of my six-week hairdressing cycle they are too long to wear down. I also have naturally curly hair and some days I can't be bothered straightening my bangs so I just sweep them to the side. I enjoy that the characters are allowed to do the same thing.

[FairyDusted]

They did Becky's Greatest Hits yesterday on TVLAND and will be doing Darlene's this Saturday. 

[JAYJAY1979]

18 hours ago, Jac said:

Another thing I really appreciate about Roseanne is the frequent hairstyle changes Roseanne, Jackie, and Becky, in particular, go through over the course of the show. It is a weird thing to admire but it really adds to the realism of the show for me. People change hairstyles quite frequently in real life but on TV almost everyone has the same hair all the time. My favorite example of this is Jackie and her bangs. I have bangs but my hair also grows like a weed so for the last two-three weeks of my six-week hairdressing cycle they are too long to wear down. I also have naturally curly hair and some days I can't be bothered straightening my bangs so I just sweep them to the side. I enjoy that the characters are allowed to do the same thing.

My fav hairstyle of Roseanne' s was season 2 pre Dorothy Hamill. hairstyle.

And I liked jackie's brief blonde hairstyle.

Edited March 12, 2018 by JAYJAY1979

[Mmmfloorpie]

17 minutes ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

pre Dorothy vanilla hairstyle.

Auto correct fail? Lol

[JAYJAY1979]

16 minutes ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

Auto correct fail? Lol

Fixed lol

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Dorothy Hamill. hairstyle.

I hated that stupid hairstyle. It made her look seem she had no neck and her head looked like a bowling ball.

[StaceyNotStacie]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I hated that stupid hairstyle. It made her look seem she had no neck and her head looked like a bowling ball.

That hair was awful, along with the hair when they had the pregnancy test episode. Roseanne’s hair always looked better longer. I do like the length and style of her hair in the reboot. 

Re Becky, her attitude got snottier as her hair got shorter.